Linking silicon T centres with light offers a route to fault-tolerant quantum computing

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Hello and welcome to the Physics World Weekly

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podcast.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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Before I introduce this week's guest I need

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to let you know that there will be

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no weekly podcast on the fourth of July.

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Instead, you can tune in on the second

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of July for the first installment of physics

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world live,

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which will focus

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on quantum sensors.

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Featuring a panel of experts. This live event

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will explore the

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extraordinary

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capabilities of quantum sensors

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and look at how they could benefit

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humanity

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and shape our understanding of the world.

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You can find out more on the Physics

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World website. Just click on the Physics world

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live tab near the top of the homepage.

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In this episode, I'm in conversation with the

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physicist

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Stephanie Simmons,

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who is founder and chief quantum officer of

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Vancouver based for tonic ink.

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The company is developing optically linked silicon spin

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q.

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And it has recently announced that it has

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distributed

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quantum

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entanglement

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between 2 of its modules.

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Recently, I caught up with Stephanie in London

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where she was speaking at the commercial

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quantum global 20 24 conference.

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Here is that

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conversation.

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Hi, Stephanie. Welcome to the podcast.

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Thank you so much for having me. So,

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Stephanie, can you explain how Photon silicon based

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quantum computing platform works?

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Absolutely. So photon Inc. We are

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using photons to glue processors

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together. We are fundamentally working on distributed quantum

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computing. And so what do I mean by

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that?

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I mean the ability to take

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individual quantum processing units

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and link them together just like we do

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with

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conventional

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supercomputer for classical computing is taking

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individual modules and rack mounting them and having

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horizontal scale. So we are heads down on

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using

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photons

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to glue all of these pieces together, and

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the pieces that we're gluing together we're using

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spin q bits, and it's in silicon,

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and it's using telecom photons to link them

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together. So that's the core of the technology

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and that's why we're moving as quickly as

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we are. I see. Okay. And is this

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is this because you're using photons? Is it

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a a sort of a linear

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technology

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or are you having the or the photons

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interacting with each other? Oh, or is it

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both? Oh, lovely. Yes. So this is the

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the beautiful part about working backwards

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from the large scale quantum technology that we

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want to build. As soon as you're using

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photons to glue things together, you no longer

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need the individual q within each module to

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essentially overlap 1 another to get their interactions.

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So, yeah, The picture is that you take

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spin q bits and silicon. These ones are

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photon active, spin q bits and silicon.

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What you do is you trigger them to

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emit

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individual photons, which are entangled with the spins

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that leave behind.

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And then you get those 2 photons to

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interfere. So that's diving right into the technical

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detail right out of the gate, but it

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does mean that you can think about scale

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in a completely different way. You can think

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about engineering these quantum systems in a completely

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different way to what's been

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traditionally assumed to be true. For the space.

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So that's 1 of the reasons why we

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are we are using this and leveraging it

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to scale rapidly.

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Okay. So, Stephanie, what are the challenges that

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you face? In scaling up the technology to

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create a practical quantum computer.

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Well, I think this is a wonderful question

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because we're taking that scale challenge very serious

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from the from the ground up. The way

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that we've been looking at quantum technologies is

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there's going to be 3 phases of quantum

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development.

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The first phase is the phase that we're

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in right now, which is what I call

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the n phase or this noisy

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intermediate scale quantum phase where there's a small

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number of quantum particles all within 1 box

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that have some

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performance characteristics, but you can't do error correction.

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Phase 2 is when they... Those single boxes

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get good enough for the quantum ingredients within

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them get good enough to do air correction.

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And that's where we hope to start seeing

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some some more interesting use cases come out

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of quantum, but the real market opportunity

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is in this phase 3 quantum

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supercomputer phase. Right? So the scale challenge is

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so integral to quantum technologies because the only

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algorithms where we know there's

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mathematical proof of product market fit is in

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that phase 3

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supercomputer phase.

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And for us, having that means having network

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quantum computing. Thinking about the quantum network as

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a core ingredient to that scale challenge.

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And it's not the sort of thing that

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you can just add in later. If you

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take a look at the way quantum systems

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and quantum computers have been evolving,

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putting on an interconnect, putting on a photon

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interconnect after the fact doesn't work very well.

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You actually have very much go back to

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the building blocks to think about how do

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I scale this technology.

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And so it is a bit of a...

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It's a newcomer to the space for sure

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it's a new newcomer to the quantum space,

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but it is engineered with scale in mind.

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Right? It's leveraging silicon,

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It's leveraging the manufacture ability of silicon. It's

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leveraging telecom photons and all of the telecom

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infrastructure And so we're already out of the

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box. That's 1 of the most interesting things

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we were excited to share with the world

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last week was the ability to do to

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distributed logic, distributed computing using using these basic

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building blocks.

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So by working backwards from the end in

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mind, we can have these core components

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and scale quickly and no longer be constrained

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to the size of any 1 box. And

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and these components are they

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Are they the source of things that can

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be

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manufactured

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relatively

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easily using

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you know, standard semi conductor processes. Is that

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the... Is that the aim to to to

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get to tailor something that can actually be

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built?

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Exactly, exactly it's important if we're gonna be

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trying to get commercial value out of these

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systems to think about

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ability from day 1. So if you work

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backwards from the assertion, that photons are going

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to glue together large scale quantum supercomputer in

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a network. You have to also be thinking

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about what are the inner photon platforms that

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give you that core capability and silicon is

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exactly that. The other core photon capability care

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about is Telecom. Right? There's so much telecom

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low loss infrastructure that'll allow us to route

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these photons around and get entanglement where it

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needs to be. So absolutely,

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ability is so important to how we should

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be engineering for these large scale quantum

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supercomputer. And that's why the the spin photon

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interfaces that we're working with. We've chosen the

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t center in silicon. It's a specific small

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molecule

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that emits these photons, it has great spin

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cubic properties, but it's a telecom

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object

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right in the silicon. And we can implant

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the constituents and do some heat treatment and

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it's just like regular silicon processing. It's 1

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of the reasons we can move as quickly

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as we have. I see. And the this

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t center, is that... I mean, is that

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something that's similar to an Envy center and

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diamond. That is the same sort of an

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idea really.

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Yes. Brilliant yes. It's part of that category

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of spin photon interfaces where you have not

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only the spin that can offer phenomenal quantum

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characteristics. So we've set world records for for

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coherent times of spins in silicon, but these

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are you know, spins and semiconductors have that

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that capability.

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But, yes, what's different between the Envy v

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center and this is Instead of diamond, we

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have the manufacture and processing capability of silicon.

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We already have silicon photon, silicon on ins.

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It just leverages a lot. And the second

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change is that we're using telecom

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telecom wavelengths for light. So it allows us

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to network these things much more easily. But

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there's also some little details that make a

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big big difference,

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that's a, bit of a different between the

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N mb center and the t center, which

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is perhaps a little too technical to get

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into here. No. This is world. So we

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wanna get into it.

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Oh, okay. Well, there are

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there are opportunities to keep the fidelity of

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everything a little bit higher through the optical

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cycle. There's some... And there's more spins that

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you can use. So there's more spins in

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the t center than the nitrogen center, so

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you have more local processing

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capabilities. So the t center has a hydrogen

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and 2 carbon atoms in addition to an

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electron that can give you that spin photon

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interface that photon interconnect. So you have 3

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nuclear spins that are all amazing,

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and they can be protected against optical cycles.

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If you're just, you know, that's that's as

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far as I'll go here, but I think

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it makes a big difference in terms of

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the performance of a large scale system. Okay.

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And I I think a lot of our

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listeners will be familiar to Envy mv centers,

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and you know, there's a lot of work

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being done on on how to create them

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in a controlled way. So with these t

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centers, this is something that you can you

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can use... I don't know, ion implant plantation

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or something to put them exactly where you

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want them. That's exactly right. The system. That's

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exactly right. So, for a, if you're working

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with a integrated photon system, you only need

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the t center localized to within 15 nanometers,

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and we actually can get better than 10

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nanometers.

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So, yeah, we can we could implant them

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where they want and we can create more

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more than enough, like the density can be

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very high. So Yeah. The

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ability is is important. That's why when we

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went looking for it. We went looking for

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the t center a few years ago before

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the company got started. We were looking with

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exactly that lens. Right? You would looking back

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in the literature and seeing what formed naturally

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and drawing from that literature to find the

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a secret ingredient to unlock a telecom spin

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photon interface. Okay. And, you know, sort of...

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I I don't wanna, you know, dwell on

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these t centers for too long, but, I

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mean, they... I suppose they are fascinating

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to physicists. So they... I mean, I it's

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probably not your in in the company at

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the moment, but do they also have applications

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for sensing in the same way that Envy

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centers do? It's a wonderful quest, we are

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very much interested in how isolated these are.

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Right? So sensors

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00:11:02,504 --> 00:11:05,639
indicate an environmental sensitivity, which actually, you don't

272
00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:07,960
want in a high performing compute system or

273
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a networking system, but I will say that

274
00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,160
this is the same technology you need for

275
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network. So let me dive into that for

276
00:11:15,170 --> 00:11:17,643
a second. The thing that has been limiting

277
00:11:17,643 --> 00:11:18,781
scale for quantum

278
00:11:19,158 --> 00:11:21,950
is quantum network... For quantum computing has been

279
00:11:21,950 --> 00:11:24,353
the lack of quantum networking. But I would

280
00:11:24,353 --> 00:11:27,049
say the other side is also true. The

281
00:11:27,049 --> 00:11:29,451
thing that's been limiting quantum networks

282
00:11:30,220 --> 00:11:34,082
has been distance, which requires essentially small quantum

283
00:11:34,301 --> 00:11:36,699
computers to give you repeater.

284
00:11:37,178 --> 00:11:39,416
Right? The repeater give you that distance, it

285
00:11:39,416 --> 00:11:42,148
gives you the ability to scale users because

286
00:11:42,148 --> 00:11:44,465
multiple users can plug into a single repeater,

287
00:11:44,864 --> 00:11:47,181
and that scale has been missing on the

288
00:11:47,181 --> 00:11:47,980
networking side.

289
00:11:48,794 --> 00:11:50,875
And so this is just 1 more reason

290
00:11:50,875 --> 00:11:54,074
why telecom wavelengths matter so much. Right? Because

291
00:11:54,074 --> 00:11:55,754
if you're going to be working on a

292
00:11:55,754 --> 00:11:56,254
combined

293
00:11:57,208 --> 00:11:58,826
network quantum computing

294
00:11:59,204 --> 00:12:01,280
solution, you have to be at those wavelengths.

295
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:03,037
You have to be right at those at

296
00:12:03,037 --> 00:12:05,192
those telecom wavelengths. So what It I would

297
00:12:05,192 --> 00:12:06,524
say is that this

298
00:12:06,883 --> 00:12:09,615
really does merge the the quantum of technology

299
00:12:09,913 --> 00:12:12,783
streams of networks and computing into 1 platform.

300
00:12:12,942 --> 00:12:14,638
And I think anything

301
00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:17,110
that tries to go it alone is gonna

302
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:19,669
have a scaling issue. So that will... At

303
00:12:19,669 --> 00:12:21,769
some point need to be addressed. Right? So

304
00:12:21,830 --> 00:12:24,392
that's why... Yeah. It you can use the

305
00:12:24,392 --> 00:12:24,892
entanglement

306
00:12:25,345 --> 00:12:27,568
distribution of a network to link to sensors,

307
00:12:28,521 --> 00:12:30,427
but it's not a direct 1 for 1.

308
00:12:30,665 --> 00:12:33,299
Like you... They could, like, you alluded to

309
00:12:33,299 --> 00:12:35,679
with the Envy nbc center magnet for example.

310
00:12:36,155 --> 00:12:38,693
Okay. Right. Okay. No more questions about t

311
00:12:38,693 --> 00:12:38,931
centers.

312
00:12:39,504 --> 00:12:42,376
Hello Great. They're really interesting script there, but

313
00:12:43,014 --> 00:12:45,408
that's why these interviews are fun. So, Stephanie,

314
00:12:45,647 --> 00:12:48,366
what are some of the quantum computing applications

315
00:12:48,366 --> 00:12:50,985
that the technology is particularly suited for.

316
00:12:51,779 --> 00:12:52,018
Yes.

317
00:12:52,653 --> 00:12:54,082
So in this phase,

318
00:12:54,574 --> 00:12:56,510
1 phase 2 phase 3

319
00:12:58,324 --> 00:13:00,957
conversation for quantum technologies. We are very much

320
00:13:00,957 --> 00:13:03,444
focused on these phase 3 applications. And what

321
00:13:03,444 --> 00:13:05,776
do I mean by that? The known

322
00:13:06,391 --> 00:13:07,528
exponential speed up algorithms

323
00:13:07,905 --> 00:13:11,171
requiring, usually upwards of a thousand logical q

324
00:13:11,171 --> 00:13:13,727
with very good logical error rates. Right? To

325
00:13:13,727 --> 00:13:16,585
do amazing things like help on the drug

326
00:13:16,585 --> 00:13:17,562
discovery pipeline

327
00:13:17,935 --> 00:13:20,237
or the crypto side. Any of those kinds

328
00:13:20,237 --> 00:13:23,513
of known exponential speed ups where there's quote

329
00:13:23,513 --> 00:13:23,592
unquote,

330
00:13:24,388 --> 00:13:26,774
mathematical proof of product market fit, where you

331
00:13:26,774 --> 00:13:29,437
can go and crunch through the deter algorithms

332
00:13:29,494 --> 00:13:31,960
say, okay, this you this many logical q

333
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,426
you can get a deter result. That's exciting.

334
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,195
For us because what we want to do

335
00:13:36,195 --> 00:13:38,667
first and foremost is unlock value for people

336
00:13:38,667 --> 00:13:40,284
at... Because then it starts a flywheel

337
00:13:40,741 --> 00:13:43,613
of of other investment and opportunity seeking for

338
00:13:43,613 --> 00:13:44,091
these systems.

339
00:13:44,981 --> 00:13:46,883
That is not to say that there may

340
00:13:46,883 --> 00:13:48,785
or may not be value in this phase

341
00:13:48,785 --> 00:13:51,718
2 era. The phase 2 errors where everything's

342
00:13:51,718 --> 00:13:52,090
boxed

343
00:13:52,606 --> 00:13:54,354
constrained to a single box where yours only

344
00:13:54,354 --> 00:13:57,214
maybe a couple hundred at most logical q.

345
00:13:57,929 --> 00:14:00,012
So the applications that you get me up

346
00:14:00,012 --> 00:14:02,244
in the morning on the chemistry side or

347
00:14:02,244 --> 00:14:03,678
on the chemistry side, in particular.

348
00:14:04,316 --> 00:14:07,559
So there's a, a molecule that was identified

349
00:14:07,758 --> 00:14:09,818
Well, many people know about it, but Google

350
00:14:09,818 --> 00:14:11,878
did the good work to identify it as

351
00:14:11,878 --> 00:14:14,334
a quantum target, which is the CYP molecule.

352
00:14:14,983 --> 00:14:15,483
And

353
00:14:15,855 --> 00:14:16,727
they call it sip.

354
00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:18,496
And this thing

355
00:14:19,582 --> 00:14:20,082
metabolize

356
00:14:20,454 --> 00:14:21,906
70 percent of human

357
00:14:22,358 --> 00:14:22,730
drugs

358
00:14:23,405 --> 00:14:25,471
70 percent, and they don't know how to

359
00:14:25,471 --> 00:14:28,332
simulate it with a computer at all because

360
00:14:28,332 --> 00:14:30,637
it has the heavy elements that really do

361
00:14:30,637 --> 00:14:31,137
require

362
00:14:31,924 --> 00:14:34,239
quantum computers to be have tools fit for

363
00:14:34,239 --> 00:14:36,634
purpose. Right? So if we could understand how

364
00:14:36,634 --> 00:14:39,428
that molecule worked, we would be able to

365
00:14:39,428 --> 00:14:42,079
better predict how drugs would get through or

366
00:14:42,079 --> 00:14:42,398
not,

367
00:14:42,958 --> 00:14:45,914
the the entire late stage trials process? Right?

368
00:14:46,074 --> 00:14:48,311
And how much would that save on everybody's

369
00:14:48,311 --> 00:14:50,085
cycle. So that 1 would be excellent. The

370
00:14:50,085 --> 00:14:51,125
other 1 is catalysts.

371
00:14:51,605 --> 00:14:52,745
Right? So catalysts

372
00:14:53,205 --> 00:14:55,524
have heavy elements in them, and they just

373
00:14:55,524 --> 00:14:57,684
can't be simulated. So right now, we'd seem

374
00:14:57,684 --> 00:14:59,456
to just chuck a whole bunch of options

375
00:14:59,456 --> 00:15:01,210
on the wall and see what works. But

376
00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:02,726
we're gonna need some pretty,

377
00:15:03,603 --> 00:15:06,714
key developments on the catalyst side to rework

378
00:15:06,714 --> 00:15:09,670
our entire energy. So system. Right? The catalysts

379
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:12,207
help everything unlock. So having a tool fit

380
00:15:12,207 --> 00:15:13,951
for purpose to understand how they work would

381
00:15:13,951 --> 00:15:15,244
be just transformative.

382
00:15:15,948 --> 00:15:17,138
So those are the ones that get me

383
00:15:17,138 --> 00:15:18,565
up in the morning, let's say, but I'm

384
00:15:18,565 --> 00:15:18,882
most,

385
00:15:19,674 --> 00:15:22,370
in the long term fascinated by what we

386
00:15:22,370 --> 00:15:23,083
don't yet know.

387
00:15:23,734 --> 00:15:25,652
And so I like to use the classical

388
00:15:25,652 --> 00:15:26,152
semiconductor

389
00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:29,487
computing as a... An as example here. Every

390
00:15:29,487 --> 00:15:31,497
time you commercial a branch of 6 at

391
00:15:31,497 --> 00:15:33,646
the outset, you have no idea what the

392
00:15:33,646 --> 00:15:36,352
actual use cases and applications are, and it's

393
00:15:36,352 --> 00:15:37,864
actually very rare do you get to see

394
00:15:37,864 --> 00:15:38,581
it in advance?

395
00:15:39,232 --> 00:15:40,528
So much so that

396
00:15:40,983 --> 00:15:42,040
when the

397
00:15:42,495 --> 00:15:44,564
transistor first came on the scene,

398
00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,258
people weren't

399
00:15:46,633 --> 00:15:48,959
necessarily excited about things like Facebook.

400
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:51,919
They thought the key application was hearing aids.

401
00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:54,639
Right? Because they already had vacuum tube computer.

402
00:15:54,799 --> 00:15:56,079
So Thought they're like, okay, fine. It can

403
00:15:56,079 --> 00:15:56,559
be lighter.

404
00:15:57,134 --> 00:15:59,054
And smaller, a little bit. Great. Let's make

405
00:15:59,054 --> 00:16:00,654
a hearing it. Like, that was the application.

406
00:16:00,815 --> 00:16:03,375
Right? So they they... You can't always see

407
00:16:03,375 --> 00:16:05,134
where things are gonna go and I'm most

408
00:16:05,134 --> 00:16:06,470
excited to see what this

409
00:16:07,147 --> 00:16:09,696
computational power can do once we've had a

410
00:16:09,696 --> 00:16:10,196
broader

411
00:16:11,289 --> 00:16:14,014
generation of people developing use cases for it,

412
00:16:14,813 --> 00:16:16,651
especially after we get them up on online

413
00:16:16,651 --> 00:16:18,328
where we can then start playing with, like,

414
00:16:18,408 --> 00:16:19,707
the heuristic algorithms,

415
00:16:20,086 --> 00:16:22,177
where you don't have a determine this number

416
00:16:22,177 --> 00:16:23,772
of of q that you need to do

417
00:16:23,772 --> 00:16:26,005
a thing. Right? Ai is a great example

418
00:16:26,005 --> 00:16:28,101
of a heuristic girl. All the optimization algorithms

419
00:16:28,159 --> 00:16:29,993
we have today are all heuristic. They just

420
00:16:29,993 --> 00:16:33,120
seem to work. Right? So, where it's not

421
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,074
anchored to a a computational complexity argument, for

422
00:16:36,074 --> 00:16:38,548
example. So I'm excited to see what quantum

423
00:16:38,548 --> 00:16:39,506
can do in that phase,

424
00:16:40,319 --> 00:16:41,675
And that was a quite a long answer,

425
00:16:41,834 --> 00:16:43,908
but I hope that take no. That That

426
00:16:43,908 --> 00:16:45,663
that's fine. Yeah. I I just wanted to

427
00:16:45,663 --> 00:16:47,417
to ask you, but you you mentioned, you

428
00:16:47,417 --> 00:16:49,650
know, needing about a thousand logical q bits.

429
00:16:50,064 --> 00:16:51,656
I mean, that sort of suggests to me

430
00:16:51,656 --> 00:16:53,646
that you're going to be doing some sort

431
00:16:53,646 --> 00:16:56,352
of error correction with lots more real q

432
00:16:56,352 --> 00:16:58,580
bits. Yes, sir. Are you talking about sort

433
00:16:58,580 --> 00:16:59,399
of a million

434
00:17:00,029 --> 00:17:01,947
real q bits or can can you do

435
00:17:01,947 --> 00:17:03,625
it with fewer or do you have to

436
00:17:03,625 --> 00:17:06,422
use more or? I love this question because

437
00:17:06,422 --> 00:17:08,260
this was the elephant in the room for

438
00:17:08,260 --> 00:17:10,690
the first decade or 2 of quantum technology

439
00:17:10,828 --> 00:17:11,227
development.

440
00:17:11,865 --> 00:17:14,257
And people were just having a hard time

441
00:17:14,257 --> 00:17:15,852
getting their heads around the fact that it

442
00:17:15,852 --> 00:17:18,186
seemed to be hard to make 50 cub

443
00:17:18,579 --> 00:17:20,659
and yet we needed millions to do anything

444
00:17:20,659 --> 00:17:21,220
of Value.

445
00:17:22,019 --> 00:17:23,640
I would say that fortunately,

446
00:17:24,019 --> 00:17:26,075
there has been a lot of excellent physics

447
00:17:26,433 --> 00:17:29,379
and computer science that have gone into making

448
00:17:29,379 --> 00:17:31,768
those goal posts 20 years closer, and I'll

449
00:17:31,927 --> 00:17:33,679
I'll share with you how that's possible.

450
00:17:35,205 --> 00:17:38,223
If you go with conventional assumptions on how

451
00:17:38,223 --> 00:17:40,924
error correction works for quantum, you're absolutely right,

452
00:17:41,083 --> 00:17:42,695
You need, like, 3000

453
00:17:43,243 --> 00:17:45,893
physical q for every 1 logical

454
00:17:46,666 --> 00:17:48,337
cube. Right? It seems like,

455
00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:52,317
difficult to imagine that certainly not within any

456
00:17:52,317 --> 00:17:55,387
1 bar. You are definitely going to benefit

457
00:17:55,447 --> 00:17:58,244
from horizontal scalability to hit those kinds of

458
00:17:58,244 --> 00:18:00,801
numbers. I think somebody was earlier at the

459
00:18:00,801 --> 00:18:02,020
conference. Someone

460
00:18:02,333 --> 00:18:03,549
refer to it as a factory.

461
00:18:04,084 --> 00:18:06,312
Oh, my gosh. There's the quantum factory to

462
00:18:06,312 --> 00:18:08,562
do. There's there's so much. But fortunately,

463
00:18:09,256 --> 00:18:11,109
if you actually work backwards

464
00:18:11,579 --> 00:18:14,716
from success and you take a look at

465
00:18:14,934 --> 00:18:16,233
what the best

466
00:18:16,612 --> 00:18:18,391
quantum codes are

467
00:18:18,943 --> 00:18:20,693
It's actually not the ones that people have

468
00:18:20,693 --> 00:18:21,807
been engineering for.

469
00:18:22,602 --> 00:18:25,466
People have been engineering for plan codes,

470
00:18:26,196 --> 00:18:28,737
because the systems that they were trained up

471
00:18:28,737 --> 00:18:28,976
on,

472
00:18:29,611 --> 00:18:30,587
used proximity

473
00:18:31,676 --> 00:18:33,900
to do their multi cubic gates to do

474
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:34,773
their scenic gates.

475
00:18:35,583 --> 00:18:38,843
But that's not at all what you... You're

476
00:18:38,843 --> 00:18:40,433
you're not restricted to that at all. If

477
00:18:40,433 --> 00:18:43,080
you're working with a network quantum technology,

478
00:18:43,628 --> 00:18:45,856
You can string these things together way you

479
00:18:45,856 --> 00:18:48,583
want. Photons are great at moving around and

480
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:50,151
interconnect and they don't talk to each other.

481
00:18:50,564 --> 00:18:52,796
Right? You can put 2 flashlight or 2

482
00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:55,506
torches, let's say, hey, at 90 degrees, and

483
00:18:55,506 --> 00:18:57,579
those photons carry through just fine. Right You

484
00:18:57,579 --> 00:18:59,589
can you can get these read it all

485
00:18:59,589 --> 00:19:00,230
over the place.

486
00:19:01,589 --> 00:19:03,269
But when you do that, then you have

487
00:19:03,269 --> 00:19:05,884
the opportunity to connect them the best way

488
00:19:06,004 --> 00:19:06,742
or rather

489
00:19:07,116 --> 00:19:10,134
optimize them for error correction. And what used

490
00:19:10,134 --> 00:19:11,349
to take 3000

491
00:19:11,485 --> 00:19:11,985
physical

492
00:19:12,438 --> 00:19:15,313
takes 30. Right? So these codes that exist.

493
00:19:15,392 --> 00:19:17,774
There are actually 5 g codes that have

494
00:19:17,774 --> 00:19:20,870
been quote unquote, made quantum, they're called quantum

495
00:19:20,949 --> 00:19:23,252
L codes. If you haven't heard about them.

496
00:19:23,743 --> 00:19:25,491
I do suggest you go up and read

497
00:19:25,491 --> 00:19:28,056
on them because they have moved the quantum

498
00:19:28,112 --> 00:19:30,337
goal post 20 years closer for everyone who

499
00:19:30,337 --> 00:19:33,296
can actually implement those codes. Those overheads go

500
00:19:33,296 --> 00:19:34,594
from scary

501
00:19:35,051 --> 00:19:36,488
down to achievable.

502
00:19:37,286 --> 00:19:39,121
So, Stephanie, can you tell me a bit

503
00:19:39,121 --> 00:19:42,487
about Photon Inc, the company. How how many

504
00:19:42,487 --> 00:19:44,801
employees do you have and what R and

505
00:19:44,961 --> 00:19:47,689
D facilities are available to you? So you...

506
00:19:47,849 --> 00:19:49,926
You're based in is Vancouver where you're based.

507
00:19:50,166 --> 00:19:52,323
That's right. Right. But you've got some other

508
00:19:52,323 --> 00:19:54,160
offices around the world as well. Can you

509
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:55,763
tell us a bit of about the company.

510
00:19:56,002 --> 00:19:58,223
Yeah. That's right. So, I started,

511
00:19:58,858 --> 00:20:00,048
just to wind back and give a bit

512
00:20:00,048 --> 00:20:02,428
of context. I I started as a professor

513
00:20:02,428 --> 00:20:05,491
to go find these spin photon interfaces

514
00:20:05,947 --> 00:20:07,244
based out in Vancouver.

515
00:20:08,098 --> 00:20:10,568
And in 20 20, we found and shared

516
00:20:10,568 --> 00:20:11,206
with the world,

517
00:20:11,923 --> 00:20:12,481
the t center.

518
00:20:13,134 --> 00:20:16,032
So we have been essentially a Covid born

519
00:20:16,251 --> 00:20:18,808
company. We got the green light on our

520
00:20:18,808 --> 00:20:19,308
first

521
00:20:20,007 --> 00:20:22,405
investment round in in 20 21.

522
00:20:22,898 --> 00:20:24,721
So we're quite a young company, but we're

523
00:20:24,721 --> 00:20:27,258
already doing distributed quantum computing. Right? So it

524
00:20:27,258 --> 00:20:29,240
is moving fast by standing on the shoulders

525
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:29,795
of giants.

526
00:20:30,765 --> 00:20:32,684
So in those... In that short time, we've

527
00:20:33,805 --> 00:20:36,125
gained a a phenomenal team, we have a

528
00:20:36,125 --> 00:20:37,505
hundred and 40 people

529
00:20:37,976 --> 00:20:40,755
but they're not all based in Vancouver, Our

530
00:20:40,755 --> 00:20:44,486
strategy has absolutely been quality, not quantity, and

531
00:20:44,486 --> 00:20:46,734
so are... We we tap the world's best

532
00:20:46,734 --> 00:20:48,494
on the shoulders and better where they live

533
00:20:48,494 --> 00:20:49,554
in the world, and

534
00:20:50,015 --> 00:20:51,615
we have a pretty good hit rate once

535
00:20:51,615 --> 00:20:53,294
we share what we're up to and where

536
00:20:53,294 --> 00:20:55,863
we're going. Because that scalability argument is it's

537
00:20:55,863 --> 00:20:57,457
just... It is compelling for people.

538
00:20:58,334 --> 00:21:00,167
So we do yes, have offices in the

539
00:21:00,167 --> 00:21:02,161
states and we have offices in the Uk.

540
00:21:02,653 --> 00:21:05,199
And we have team members all over Europe

541
00:21:05,199 --> 00:21:06,233
and North America.

542
00:21:07,187 --> 00:21:09,176
Yeah. So it's it's a great team. It's

543
00:21:09,176 --> 00:21:11,589
it's lots of time zones, but it's absolutely

544
00:21:11,589 --> 00:21:14,549
a a phenomenal environment and the best minds

545
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:16,789
to engage with. Okay. And and so how

546
00:21:16,789 --> 00:21:18,285
how many people do you have and what

547
00:21:18,404 --> 00:21:19,464
but are they mostly

548
00:21:19,923 --> 00:21:20,423
Phds

549
00:21:21,121 --> 00:21:22,340
in physics or

550
00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:25,197
electrical engineering? Is that is that the sort

551
00:21:25,197 --> 00:21:27,369
of stage that the company is at? At

552
00:21:27,369 --> 00:21:28,970
the moment. It's a it's a great question.

553
00:21:29,369 --> 00:21:31,450
Actually, we don't have as many Phds as

554
00:21:31,450 --> 00:21:32,890
you'd think because a lot of the work

555
00:21:32,890 --> 00:21:34,829
to be done is on the engineering. So

556
00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:38,035
like electrical engineering, absolutely, but there's cryo

557
00:21:38,412 --> 00:21:41,201
engineering and mechanical engineering and lots of professional

558
00:21:41,201 --> 00:21:41,599
software,

559
00:21:42,317 --> 00:21:42,556
engineers,

560
00:21:43,289 --> 00:21:43,608
We have...

561
00:21:44,645 --> 00:21:46,161
We even have a machine nest do we...

562
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,596
But, yeah, we do the full stack on

563
00:21:47,596 --> 00:21:49,772
the quantum side, and those are mostly Phds.

564
00:21:50,481 --> 00:21:52,462
And on the integrative photon side, we do

565
00:21:52,462 --> 00:21:55,339
an agile hardware cycle, which means we have

566
00:21:55,552 --> 00:21:58,502
independent supply chains on 2 different manufacturing,

567
00:21:59,775 --> 00:22:01,763
supply chains, and we turn over a chip

568
00:22:01,763 --> 00:22:03,433
every day every 2 days, and we have

569
00:22:03,433 --> 00:22:05,341
a quite a quite an operations scene that's

570
00:22:05,341 --> 00:22:07,983
going through on a professional silicon photon basis.

571
00:22:08,142 --> 00:22:11,015
So, yeah, there is a lot of... There

572
00:22:11,015 --> 00:22:13,488
are physicists, but the work to be done

573
00:22:13,488 --> 00:22:15,978
for scaling these systems is a lot of

574
00:22:15,978 --> 00:22:18,615
engineering physics, let's say. Okay. But, I mean,

575
00:22:18,695 --> 00:22:20,214
if there is a physicist out there and

576
00:22:20,374 --> 00:22:22,212
I'm sure there people listening to this thinking

577
00:22:22,212 --> 00:22:23,890
wow. You know, how can I get into

578
00:22:23,890 --> 00:22:24,184
this

579
00:22:24,780 --> 00:22:26,075
industry? It sounds fascinating.

580
00:22:26,528 --> 00:22:28,672
What what sort of advice would you give

581
00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:31,055
you know, somebody who's... I don't know. Maybe

582
00:22:31,055 --> 00:22:33,615
they're finishing an undergraduate degree in physics or

583
00:22:33,615 --> 00:22:34,992
maybe they're just out a Phd,

584
00:22:35,528 --> 00:22:37,520
and they'd really like to get into the

585
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,251
the quantum biz. Right. I I think it's

586
00:22:40,483 --> 00:22:40,983
it's

587
00:22:41,438 --> 00:22:44,780
absolutely a good idea, the... What happens with

588
00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:46,848
technology development. If you take a look at

589
00:22:46,848 --> 00:22:47,246
history,

590
00:22:47,739 --> 00:22:50,216
is that there is... When you commercial a

591
00:22:50,216 --> 00:22:52,054
branch of physics, every single time this has

592
00:22:52,054 --> 00:22:54,931
happened, there's usually a Cam explosion of of

593
00:22:54,931 --> 00:22:55,970
different opportunities.

594
00:22:56,464 --> 00:22:58,295
So for, right now, we have a whole

595
00:22:58,295 --> 00:23:00,525
bunch of different quantum platforms. But honestly,

596
00:23:01,561 --> 00:23:03,313
even if only 1 or 2 of them

597
00:23:03,313 --> 00:23:04,928
end up being the dominant

598
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,839
form of quantum technology,

599
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,559
everybody in the industry ends up benefiting.

600
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,539
There ends up being a consolidation event where

601
00:23:12,599 --> 00:23:15,003
everybody kind of comes together and there's murderers

602
00:23:15,003 --> 00:23:16,672
in the rest of it, and people all

603
00:23:16,672 --> 00:23:18,658
still start rowing the boat in the same

604
00:23:18,658 --> 00:23:21,295
direction, and there's a massive talent shortage. Because

605
00:23:21,295 --> 00:23:24,653
usually that happens once commercial advantage or commercial

606
00:23:26,058 --> 00:23:27,963
acceleration exists. Right? So there's money to be

607
00:23:27,963 --> 00:23:30,610
made. So I would say, yeah. In in

608
00:23:30,610 --> 00:23:31,647
my time in Quantum,

609
00:23:32,605 --> 00:23:35,958
certainly, the the compensation been phenomenal for anybody

610
00:23:35,958 --> 00:23:38,046
in the quantum tech space. I would say

611
00:23:38,046 --> 00:23:39,023
that it's also

612
00:23:39,717 --> 00:23:40,831
extremely competitive,

613
00:23:41,388 --> 00:23:42,423
which doesn't...

614
00:23:43,776 --> 00:23:45,606
That's it's actually a really good thing because

615
00:23:45,606 --> 00:23:47,372
it means that the people you get spend

616
00:23:47,372 --> 00:23:49,780
time with our are all brilliant usually.

617
00:23:50,473 --> 00:23:52,484
And you get to do something meaningful.

618
00:23:52,859 --> 00:23:55,577
Right? So they're very motivated as well. So

619
00:23:55,657 --> 00:23:58,754
I would absolutely recommend it, especially as things

620
00:23:58,754 --> 00:24:01,930
are progressing ever more quickly towards a kind

621
00:24:01,930 --> 00:24:03,995
of consolidated view, I would say on how

622
00:24:03,995 --> 00:24:06,722
to do large scale useful quantum tech. Right?

623
00:24:06,882 --> 00:24:08,240
These new codes make a lot of sense,

624
00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:10,237
Distributed quantum computing makes a lot of sense.

625
00:24:10,397 --> 00:24:13,044
People are starting to converge. So the timing

626
00:24:13,044 --> 00:24:14,476
to get into it is quite good. And

627
00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:16,702
there's lots of interest in and people just

628
00:24:16,702 --> 00:24:18,134
wanna know what quantum means for them now.

629
00:24:18,373 --> 00:24:20,202
Right? So there's there's a lot of interest

630
00:24:20,202 --> 00:24:22,367
in being aware of what that is from

631
00:24:22,367 --> 00:24:24,280
a from a job opportunity and being able

632
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,113
to trade that in the market. And it

633
00:24:26,113 --> 00:24:28,440
it sounds to me that maybe the you

634
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:29,580
know, the the cube

635
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,160
flavor that you choose doesn't matter. If you

636
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,320
you join a company that's working on super

637
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,363
conducting q bits or silicon cub or ion

638
00:24:38,363 --> 00:24:40,669
based q bits. Does that... I mean, does

639
00:24:40,669 --> 00:24:42,736
that not matter in the long run? You're

640
00:24:42,736 --> 00:24:44,962
not gonna hit a dead end with that

641
00:24:44,962 --> 00:24:45,916
in the industry.

642
00:24:46,729 --> 00:24:47,768
You know, you could move.

643
00:24:49,046 --> 00:24:50,484
You know, for example, would, you know, would

644
00:24:50,484 --> 00:24:52,721
you hire a very good person who's worked

645
00:24:52,721 --> 00:24:56,332
on super conducting Q. Yeah. Tell your to

646
00:24:56,332 --> 00:24:58,329
company, even if they don't, you know, they

647
00:24:58,329 --> 00:25:00,326
wouldn't have the technical background. Well, we're in

648
00:25:00,326 --> 00:25:02,657
a position where our Cuba are so young

649
00:25:02,657 --> 00:25:04,572
they're Toddler cub. Right? That we only shared

650
00:25:04,572 --> 00:25:06,726
them with... We hadn't found them. And we

651
00:25:06,726 --> 00:25:08,482
shared their existence with the world in in

652
00:25:08,482 --> 00:25:09,040
20 20.

653
00:25:09,694 --> 00:25:12,326
So everybody that we've hired if they didn't

654
00:25:12,326 --> 00:25:14,399
come up through the ranks in my research

655
00:25:14,399 --> 00:25:17,829
program had to come from another branch of

656
00:25:17,829 --> 00:25:18,786
quantum technologies.

657
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:19,859
So,

658
00:25:20,236 --> 00:25:22,467
yeah, I do see and the long term,

659
00:25:23,583 --> 00:25:26,692
which hardware modality is is maybe less relevant.

660
00:25:26,931 --> 00:25:28,861
I think if you were to invest in

661
00:25:28,861 --> 00:25:31,415
the really long term, it would make sense

662
00:25:31,415 --> 00:25:33,570
to pick something that did talk to photons,

663
00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:35,805
I... There's really no way that in the

664
00:25:35,805 --> 00:25:37,500
large scale photons aren't gonna be a part

665
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:39,099
of the network quantum system.

666
00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:41,980
When you say photons, do you mean not

667
00:25:41,980 --> 00:25:42,619
microwaves waves.

668
00:25:43,354 --> 00:25:46,151
As in super conducting kids or, you know,

669
00:25:46,311 --> 00:25:48,388
what what we think of as light, visible

670
00:25:48,388 --> 00:25:50,545
light. Oh, that's a great question. There is

671
00:25:50,545 --> 00:25:53,517
more trans verbal knowledge than you would think.

672
00:25:54,156 --> 00:25:56,335
Actually, I would say there's almost more transferable

673
00:25:56,474 --> 00:25:59,591
knowledge from microwave photons over to spin photon

674
00:25:59,591 --> 00:26:02,644
interfaces than from the pure spin community where

675
00:26:02,644 --> 00:26:05,445
they don't have to necessarily think about Cavity

676
00:26:05,445 --> 00:26:07,445
coupling or any of those dynamics. Right?

677
00:26:08,499 --> 00:26:10,331
So it is a lot more transferable than

678
00:26:10,331 --> 00:26:11,925
you think thinking and yes, we've definitely hired

679
00:26:12,084 --> 00:26:14,554
Super people and I trap people and neutral

680
00:26:14,634 --> 00:26:16,557
Adam people and You do want to be

681
00:26:16,557 --> 00:26:18,860
able to draw from that broad base of

682
00:26:18,860 --> 00:26:22,670
quantum experience because, ultimately, these are electromagnetic fields.

683
00:26:23,639 --> 00:26:26,829
And and quantum cub that go through the

684
00:26:26,829 --> 00:26:29,780
same kind of control characteristics usually. Right? So

685
00:26:29,780 --> 00:26:31,615
there is a lot more transferable than than

686
00:26:31,615 --> 00:26:32,173
you'd think.

687
00:26:33,544 --> 00:26:35,133
But I do say that, you know, the

688
00:26:35,133 --> 00:26:38,256
stack side is also very, very interesting where

689
00:26:38,472 --> 00:26:40,641
you don't... You can come from different

690
00:26:41,095 --> 00:26:43,336
versions of the Quantum stack and still transfer

691
00:26:43,336 --> 00:26:45,324
over. So if you're working on... So when

692
00:26:45,324 --> 00:26:47,233
you say stock, But what what what does

693
00:26:47,233 --> 00:26:49,143
that mean? Yeah. So, like, if we're if

694
00:26:49,143 --> 00:26:50,374
you're a focused

695
00:26:50,751 --> 00:26:53,165
expert on a 1 branch of quantum error

696
00:26:53,224 --> 00:26:56,335
correction, and you feel like, oh, hey, maybe

697
00:26:56,335 --> 00:26:58,089
this new kind of error correction is where

698
00:26:58,249 --> 00:26:59,660
I should be spending my efforts

699
00:27:00,179 --> 00:27:02,174
that is an easy jump to make too.

700
00:27:02,494 --> 00:27:04,490
And, yeah, I don't see it as a

701
00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:07,603
as a... Especially with the increasing awareness of

702
00:27:07,603 --> 00:27:09,061
how cross compatible

703
00:27:09,534 --> 00:27:12,505
the various challenges are, but it is

704
00:27:13,042 --> 00:27:15,774
absolutely worth getting in deep. It is worth

705
00:27:15,992 --> 00:27:18,166
understanding the very deep details

706
00:27:18,638 --> 00:27:21,210
because you would be shocked at how frequently

707
00:27:21,267 --> 00:27:22,723
they come up in adjacent

708
00:27:23,498 --> 00:27:25,808
environment. Right? Right? So so when you say

709
00:27:25,808 --> 00:27:26,286
deep, do you mean,

710
00:27:27,003 --> 00:27:29,890
understanding the physics. On Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So,

711
00:27:29,969 --> 00:27:32,283
like, for example, charge noise. I don't know

712
00:27:32,283 --> 00:27:34,597
a single platform that doesn't care about charge

713
00:27:34,597 --> 00:27:37,239
noise. Charges are in reality. We care about

714
00:27:37,239 --> 00:27:40,181
reality. Right? We care about interfaces. There's interfaces

715
00:27:40,181 --> 00:27:40,817
affect everything.

716
00:27:41,294 --> 00:27:43,122
Everything will have charging eyes on it. Understand

717
00:27:43,122 --> 00:27:44,791
that. Yeah. That's very transferable.

718
00:27:45,443 --> 00:27:47,913
How how do you think about gate compilation.

719
00:27:48,232 --> 00:27:50,144
Right? It's the same regardless of what you're

720
00:27:50,144 --> 00:27:52,614
mapping it to? You have certain considerations that

721
00:27:52,614 --> 00:27:55,656
are very... That apply quite versatile. Right? So

722
00:27:55,656 --> 00:27:57,565
there's a lot more transferable than you would

723
00:27:57,565 --> 00:27:59,792
think, but getting to understand what really makes

724
00:27:59,792 --> 00:28:01,247
or breaks a given technology

725
00:28:01,861 --> 00:28:03,395
allows you to better navigate

726
00:28:04,103 --> 00:28:06,413
going forward. Right? Well, that's great. Well, thanks,

727
00:28:06,732 --> 00:28:08,485
Stephanie. Thanks for for that advice,

728
00:28:09,122 --> 00:28:10,875
no on how to get into the quantum

729
00:28:10,875 --> 00:28:12,627
industry and also telling us about the company

730
00:28:12,627 --> 00:28:14,551
as well. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

731
00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,062
Oh, it's been great. Thank you so much

732
00:28:16,062 --> 00:28:17,492
for your very insightful questions.

733
00:28:25,701 --> 00:28:28,728
That was Stephanie Simmons of Photon inc.

734
00:28:29,525 --> 00:28:31,538
We added during the commercial

735
00:28:32,088 --> 00:28:36,300
Quantum global 20 24 conference in London, which

736
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:38,389
is organized by economist

737
00:28:38,763 --> 00:28:39,001
impact.

738
00:28:39,973 --> 00:28:42,685
Stay tuned over the next few weeks for

739
00:28:42,685 --> 00:28:43,185
more

740
00:28:43,722 --> 00:28:44,222
conversations

741
00:28:44,839 --> 00:28:46,275
inspired by that conference.

742
00:28:47,485 --> 00:28:50,510
We're getting really excited about the launch of

743
00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:54,412
Physics World live. A series of online panel

744
00:28:54,412 --> 00:28:57,484
debates in which you can join leading scientists,

745
00:28:58,264 --> 00:29:00,365
discussing hot topics and physics

746
00:29:00,744 --> 00:29:03,039
and put your questions to the experts

747
00:29:03,715 --> 00:29:07,689
First up is physics World live quantum sensors,

748
00:29:08,165 --> 00:29:10,867
which is on the second of July 20

749
00:29:10,867 --> 00:29:11,503
24.

750
00:29:12,313 --> 00:29:15,092
You'll find out why quantum sensors could be

751
00:29:15,092 --> 00:29:15,989
the quantum

752
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2 point knot technology

753
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with the greatest

754
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potential for near term

755
00:29:22,019 --> 00:29:22,838
real world

756
00:29:23,376 --> 00:29:26,728
applications. On September 20 sixth, join us for

757
00:29:26,728 --> 00:29:30,160
physics world live, the future of particle physics.

758
00:29:30,731 --> 00:29:32,262
Where we mark the 7

759
00:29:32,952 --> 00:29:35,833
anniversary of Cern by debating where the world's

760
00:29:35,967 --> 00:29:37,872
next collider should be.

761
00:29:38,918 --> 00:29:42,018
Finally, on the 20 first of November, there's

762
00:29:42,018 --> 00:29:44,663
physics world live battery technology.

763
00:29:45,514 --> 00:29:47,604
We'll discuss how efficient batteries

764
00:29:47,914 --> 00:29:50,947
will play a vital role in the transition

765
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to a low carbon

766
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767
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Register now for all 3 free events by

768
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going to the Physics World live section of

769
00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:02,423
the Physics World website.

770
00:30:03,375 --> 00:30:05,143
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

771
00:30:05,143 --> 00:30:06,363
for this week's podcast.

772
00:30:06,821 --> 00:30:10,018
Thanks to Stephanie Simmons for chatting with me

773
00:30:10,018 --> 00:30:12,835
today, and a special thanks to our producer

774
00:30:13,228 --> 00:30:13,945
Red isles.

775
00:30:14,582 --> 00:30:16,096
We'll be back again next week.