Graduation-Inspired Tips: Notes for our 18, 22, and 30+ selves!

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and four, which is airing in late June of twenty twenty one. This is going to be a graduation inspired episode of advice we would give our twenty year old selves or sometimes our thirty year old seves. Sarah had a lot of graduations. I had far fewer. But we will, you know, talk about things, you know, our new graduate self, where we're into and doing, and what we think of that now. But Sarah, what graduations do you most remember? I remember my college graduation very vividly. I think just it probably felt like such a huge milestone, like the stepping stone towards adulthood or something, because I remember cleaning out my dorm. I remember seeing everyone's parents. I have like vivid imagery of some of the people who lived in this little house on campus, like kind of what they looked like on that last day. Like clearly that imprinted really hard. And every graduation I had after that I remember very little, So I don't know that was the impactful one. I guess I sort of remember high school graduation, but not nearly as vividly as college. That's interesting because I think my high school graduation was more vivid for me than my college one. I spoke at my high school graduation, which was very exciting. I'm sure my speech was terribly overwrought and such as what happened one does when one I was eighteen. I did go back and speak there twice, as their commencement speaker later redeemed myself in those But yeah, I remember it was just such this sense of possibility, because I mean, it was off to college in the fall, leaving Indiana, which is something I had wanted to do for a very long time since moving to Indiana. You know, I remember two girls singing the ten thousand Maniac song, these are days. At the ceremony, the lyrics or you know, never before and never since I promised will the world be warm as this? Or something along those lines. Heady time college graduation four years later. That was a good year coming out. I mean, we'll talk a little bit about sort of our postgraduate life, but I have fewer memories of that. I was moving straight from my dorm to Washington, d C. To go live with a couple girls there, and I was doing an internship at USA today. The graduation itself, the thing I remember about it is that Bill Cosby spoke at one of the events, and curiously, Garrison Keeler spoke at another. And now there's there's interesting parallels with all this. Apparently our classes taste in speakers would not survive the passage of years. But Bill Cosby actually made a very funny joke about Woodrow Wilson, because you know, Woodrow Wilson was his name used to be all over Princeton everywhere, and it is now our feelings about Woodrow Wilson have evolved. But Bill Cosby was a bit ahead of his time on this. Because one of my friends, who's an Asian American young man, had won this prestigious Woodrow Wilson Award for something, and Bill Cosby was like either announcing it or hearing them announce it, and he's like, Woodrow Wilson would be turning over in his grave. He just saw this, And a couple of years later Princeton reached the same conclusion, and now Woodrow Wilson's name is not on anything, and so that's, you know, it's an interesting turn of events. But of course Bill Cosby's turnout events as well has been interesting. And little did I know that, you know, fifteen years later he would face trial and what would turn out to be my local courthouse where we in fact do jury duty. I was very glad it was not called for that jury. Oh my goodness, that would have been insane. But anyway, do you have any graduates in your house currently, Sarah? I was just going to comment that I feel like your your graduation was like as dated as it could possibly be. Yes, yes, it's just like I don't know, Yeah, back when people could have invited Bill Cosby to speak and thought that that was great, but you know, now it's an entirely different thing to say that he spoke your graduation. Well, time passes. I guess that means we're old. I do not have any graduates in my house currently. It is a bit of a milestone in that, as I've discussed, I am moving Annabel to the school where the other two go, so I will have it's a big deal that I am like anticipating this school year where we're all in the same place. Which as I was putting together the calendar as one does when one is crazy like me for next year, I was like, oh my god, there's only one calendar. This has not happened since And I thought back, and it had not happened since Annabel was in pre K and Cameron was in like the twos class and Genevieve was not born. So it's like been a while. And so I guess that's my exciting thing. And Annabel actually would have had a graduation had she been enrolled in Cameron's school, because they have graduations at I think the end of kindergarten, the end of third grade, and then the end of sixth grade when they it's like a Montessori thing when they move up a level anyway, So but no, but you have a very big graduation year in your house. I don't think I realized that. Yeah, well we have three. We have been attending three graduations in various forms. Curiously, the eighth grade graduation when we're recording this in mid June. I watched the live streamed version of it yesterday. They did not have the parents come in for it, but I got to say, you know, it's kind of there are some upsides to sitting out in the hot sun and watching hundreds of kids walk across a stage. I will give that. We're watching a fifth grade live streamed graduation today, so that's another one. And then we had a kindergarten graduation last week and that was outdoors and in person, small class though, it was only twelve kids or so, but it was great. It was really fun to see everyone again. It was like our first event for that school where we're with all the other parents and saying hi to people that we haven't seen in so long because everyone's not been doing stuff. I mean even just like fundraisers for the school or like Parents' night or whatever. All of that's been virtual, and so this was really the first time we're all seeing each other in really such a long time. But yeah, three graduates, everything's hitting at once. I guess, Yeah, Ruth is the only school age child you had who didn't have a big milestone year. Yeah, she didn't, so although interestingly she probably will. We'll see how'll do it next year. Because our district is changing how the schools are going, so they're building a new middle school to relieve some crowding. So then there will be three middle schools, but they will all go from fifth to eighth grade instead of sixth to eighth grade, So the elementary schools will then be k to fours. That means that next year will in fact be roots last year at her elementary school. Her fourth grade will be the equivalent of what fifth grade was. But there are still fifth graders there this year, I mean next year, so I don't know they'll have two graduating classes or something. I wonder if this is a nationwide trend. That's fascinating because I actually think fifth grader's going to middle school is kind of a big deal. Back in the seventies and eighties, junior high was I think seventh, eighth, and ninth, and now it's more sixth, seventh, eighth, and maybe we're moving more towards fifth to eighth that's maybe a nod to the earlier puberty we're seeing. Maybe I could be. I don't know, I'm not sure really the thought process behind it. They're also not doing it how people normally open schools. They're just completely filling it. So Sam will go to middle school for one year next year at one school, and then he will be switched to the new school for seventh grade. So go figure with a little bit of a shift in classmates, right going to someone. I mean, they claimed they were going to do community building exercises for the kids who are moving from that, you know, who are in the catchment area that go to the new new middle school. I don't know anyway, all our district's machinations we didn't need to go off on. That's the fun part about this podcast. We digress on everything. At least that's a nicer digression than the whole bill Cosby one that I went through five minutes earlier. Well, I actually forgot to mention the other graduation that we did go through that was not one of my household so I don't know if this was a digression, but our residents graduated, so we had our first class, as you guys know, I'm the director of a residency program, and pediatrics residency is three years long, and our program is brand new, so this was a very very big deal. These are the residents that were our very inaugural class that began in twenty eighteen, and now we're sending them on their merry way off to fellowship or their first job. And it was actually really really emotional. I cind at the ceremony. I also had a complete and utter childcare emergency where our nanny was completely too sick to come to work. I didn't know that was going to happen until, you know, not her fault, but like six in the morning that day, I had one moderately sick child to the point where I couldn't get anyone from any backup care agency to agree to come to our house, even though I did try, And so I brought them to graduation and my daughter was not that sick by this point, and they were all in masks and in the corner of an extremely large room, so I don't think we exposed anyone to anything, but it was very very stressful because as the director, I was basically leading the ceremonies and speaking up on stage, and I kept like taking little furtive glances over to the far far corner where they were all sitting with their devices. Of course, they weren't pay any atten to the actual ceremony or the fact that their mom was like crying on stage. But you know, the iPad is that exciting. So cheers to iPads. I mean they're really great, and that's good that they were. No crises happened during it, you know. Yeah, it was basically a miracle. So I survived the day, but it was a big deal. And now we're obviously welcoming our new class. By the time this airs, they'll be in their first week of training, so we can all wish them well. It's very exciting and bittersweet to see them get older and move on. Yeah, no, it is. I mean, because you've really built this residency program. Yeah, I mean, I can't take full credit. I wasn't even the director when it started, but I have been their director for the last two years of their training and associate director before that, so I've been involved in it even before they were here, when we were just trying to get accreditation and filling out mountains and mountains of paperwork and trying to impress representatives from the governing Board of Residencies. And it's been an adventure, but yes, this makes it all the more real and rewarding. Yeah. Well, we are going to talk about a little advice we would give to our younger graduate selves. But why don't we go ahead and take our ad break right before we get into that, so we we'll be right back. Well, we are back talking about graduations and advice we would give our younger graduating selves. Sarah, you should go first, because I thought yours were all so humorously similar Sarah's like apparently learning the same lessons each time. Yes, So I decided to organize this into things I wish my graduating self knew, or lessons that I wish she had gotten at various graduations in my life, and as Laura mentioned, I've had several. So I graduated high school, graduated college, graduated medical school. I did do everyone a favor, and I don't think I did a separate one for residency and fellowship. I just did fellowship, so that gives us four. So that's plenty, but there were five, but there were five, I mean residency, graduation is it's yes, but it counts so yeah, there were five. There were actually six. I was invited to the two thousand and six Duke graduation because I had gotten a master's in pharmacology, but I didn't go because it didn't feel that exciting, because it was really because I quit the pH d. All right, anyway, to my high school graduate self at age eighteen, Lesson one or thing one that I would like you to know, you will have less trouble in college finding people to date. So be selective. Were you not selective? Perhaps not at the beginning. Lesson number two, You should never really have more than two drinks. Seriously, maybe three if it's really cold and you're out for a long time. Lesson number three, you should start a budget. All right. If I could have known those three things, it would have been useful, all right, to my twenty two year old self. Number one, not sticking to your original career plans does not make you a failure. Most people do not pick one job at twenty one and then stick to it forever. And the reason I included this is because I did choose to, as I just mentioned, kind of pivot a little bit. I had started as an MDPHD. I had theoretically an interest in research. I had done some research in undergrad. You know, looking back, I'm not sure I loved it then, but I had sort of convinced myself that I liked it and it seemed like a good path, so I was on it, and I really tortured myself and my decision to leave that behind. But in retrospect, it seemed like the obvious, obvious choice, and obviously now in my current vantage point, everything worked out and I couldn't have known that, but I guess part of me the reason I hesitated was it felt like a failure to leave my initial selection behind. But that's not a failure for anyone. And so no matter what your age is, if you are deciding that you'd like to pivot then and you have something reasonable to pivot too, then there's absolutely no failure in that, because why would you want to stay in a career that you that doesn't quite fit. Did you go straight from college to graduate school? Then? Yeah, so you I went into an mdphd program, so I only applied to I don't think I applied any straight. You usually chose mdphd or MD mdphd programs are smaller, a little harder to get into. I think in most cases, and they're paid for, and I'm sure that was a tiny part of my motivation, although it wasn't more. It wasn't like, oh, it's freeze, I'll do it. It was like, oh, how convenient. I love this, and it's a way to have my education paid for. This is great. So that's kind of how what I thought going in. So that's the route that I chose, and then I got accepted. But once I had actually begun down the research path and sort of faced realities of the age I would be it graduation as well as what my eventual goals were, it no longer made sense. And so I actually got out at a great time. But I just wish i'd been a little kinder to myself about that process. All right, less than two my twenty two year old self. And by the way, it was two thousand and two always easy to do that math sin summer nineteen eighty. Baby, you should start a blog immediately and a podcast. I don't think we had podcasts back then, did we. Well, there was like this American life and stuff, but how would anyone have listened to it? I mean, that's well, you're right in two thousand and two, there wasn't really a way. I think by the mid aughts you could download such things to your iPod, because I did. While I was running all those long runs, I would listen to like Ira Glass, and there weren't very many podcasts to choose from, but that was a pretty good one, all right. Lesson three, you should start a budget for real. Oh and by the way, I'll go back for a second. I did start a blog in two thousand and four, which is pretty early. I can thank Michelle O of the Underwear Drawer at the time, who is now like a state senator of Georgia, who knew and my best friend from one of my best friends from college, Vicky, who had her own blog that I sort of modeled mine after. So thanks to those wonderful influences, the blog did happen on the early side of blogs, which means our twentieth anniversary will come up in just a couple of years. That'll be exciting. Wow. All right, to my medical school graduate self at age twenty seven, Lesson one, some months of residency will be really hard, some will be easier. Try to plan lots of things you truly enjoy on those easier months. I don't know. I mean, I guess there was some element of like that sounds great, but I have no money, and also I'm tired and I need to recover, so you know, maybe my twenty seven year old self knew better. But then I also feel like it was always easier to do less or table those things for when I was finished. And I think that there are some less crazy times in residency and you can fit a lot of fun, lower key things in that can still be fun less. And number two, running all those miles is great, but you should strength train. I had a lot of injuries back then, so this is not like, you know, based on vanity or fitness really, but I kept getting hurt and I think that if I had balanced my running better with other things which people told me to do, but I kind of ignored it, it would have been better. And then finally, less than three twenty seven year old self, you should really start a budget and also start putting stuff into your right four one k you if it's a tiny bit, you won't miss it now. Thankfully, I was married at the time, and somehow, like Josh was putting money in from his residency salary. I don't know. What my rationalization was like, oh, you're going to do it, but I won't. But I didn't, and that was sad because that would have grown a loup. I know, well maybe, I mean there was a big crash, right, well, I should have started starting. You should have started like in two thousand and nine actually, and then it would have been up from there, so you know, that would have been amazing. Okay, finally, my last graduation. I'm sorry this part is very long. We'll let Laura talk in just a minute. Number One, do not and by the way, this is at age thirty three, about to embark on my first job. Number one, do not buy a house, rent first, and if you do buy, buy far less house than you can technically afford. We learned the hard way on that one too. Look for ways of making your career fit the lifestyle you want. And I did do that, but I'm very glad I did, and I feel like I could have given myself permission to do that. I feel like I fell into it to some extent. Number Three, invest in nice work clothes and comfortable shoes. They will last and you deserve it. I didn't do that until I mean, part of it was all those babies I had. That makes the clothes part really a little more challenging. But I feel like I didn't really do it until the pandemic, and I could have done that sooner and finally start a budget, which we finally did about two years into working life. And while you're at it, max out all retirement vehicles. You were surviving on a fraction of current salaries, So you have zero excuse. See, you finally started the budget, finally started the budget, and I don't think we were maxing out every vehicle until like twenty nineteen maybe, so it took a while. Things take the time. Learning takes time. Unfortunately, you don't really get to have lessons from your former self. But if any of this advice helps anyone else in any of these dangers, then I am very happy for you. That's awesome. Yeah, I did not have as many graduations, only only two. I am under educated as these things go, and I was probably way into budgeting, way too into budgeting. I might say, I might want to go back and tell my younger self to lighten up a bit on it, because there will be times when you will spend comical amounts of money on ceiling fans for your new house, so you know, you can laugh about the coupon cutting back then. But anyway, I kind of like the memories of my ramen noodle recipes, and you know, I would make ramen with frozen spinach like in a you know, you cut off a hunk of frozen spinach from the package and in a pot of boiling water with the ramen noodles, and I could cut up celery. I liked ramen with celery and spinach. And then if you only put in a little bit of the packet of seasoning, it's reasonably healthy. Right. It's just like noodles with veggies and a little bit of the seasoning as opposed to you know, the whole pack That to me sounds like a recipe for like quashiorkor, which is like clinical protein deficiency because there's literally no well maybe there's a tiny bit of like gluten protein in the noodles. Well it wasn't the only thing I was eating. Like you have eggs for breakfast, you know, that was like there you go, then you have eggs, crack an egg on top of that, work an egg on top and then and then you'd be good. But yeah, I wound up eating a fair amount of ramen, which I actually like. I mean, you know, it's a it's a frugal living joke, but I liked it. I was thinking about this, I'm actually pretty grateful to my early twenties self for some decisions. As I thought back about my graduating self, I made a lot of decisions at that time that like, I mean, in my junior year of college, I studied abroad in Australia and I did a lot of travel around the country, often by myself, and doing that was just a great experience, as was you know, traveling to Asia when I was twenty three, saw a lot of things there. Budget travel is really a way to get close to the places you were seeing. And I'm really glad that my younger self did some of that. I wish i'd done even more or that, you know, I walked into my USA Today internship after college and thought I should be writing columns for them, and you know, did and I started writing pretty regularly for them for about fifteen years, and that opened a lot of doors for me professionally. But I'm really glad that my twenty two year old new graduate self thought, you know that why not why not see if I can make that work or moving to New York. Then when I was twenty three and the internship ended, I mean, just because I wanted to live in New York, so I did no job lined up, had saved up money from freelancing over the course of the year, and that financed the move to New York, and that was that was great. It turned out to be a wonderful place to live. I mean, obviously that's where I met Michael, so that was a good idea as well. So on that stuff, I'm like, you know, you were pretty awesome early twenty self. Thank you for doing those things that have shaped my life now. But of course all was not perfect. I would like to tell my early twenty something self that she should stop wearing that combination of leather boots and a leather jacket because it looks ridiculous. Right, So do the jeans that you have cut the inside seam of to make them more bootcut style. Just go buy the pair of boot cut jeans. I know you're cheap. I know you got them at a thrift store, but you shouldn't do that. You can get away with a lot when you're twenty two but remember when people would like sew in like one triangle of fabrics, right, I think I was. I was like cheap and lazy. I didn't even get to the part of sowing itt and I just like slice the same, you know, join more choirs. I mean I waited until my junior year of college to join our glee cup, and then I when I moved to New York, I joined one, but I wound up joining the three. I was like, I really liked it. I should do more, but I should have also taken voice lessons. I think I had this idea that I was a good choral singer, but you know, that was what it was. I would never like my solo voice and I still don't really, but it's probably because I haven't invested the time in it. If you take more voiceless since you will be better at it, same as anything. Same with running. You kind of like it and you will like it a lot, So keep trying it. Everyone's bad at it at the beginning. That is not something unique to you. So if you are sitting there twenty two year old Laura thinking why can't I run? Why does it stink every single time I try to run? Well, you know, start slow, take some walk breaks, try it again. You know, if you keep at it for more than like two weeks, you'll be good at it. It just for whatever reason, she could do all sorts of other things, but sticking with the running project for more than two weeks was just forget that. Here's some advice that I've really learned kind of the hard way over the years. If you really have to convince yourself to take on a project, don't take it on like more will come to you. And I've worked for myself for a great many years, and so especially you know, at the beginning, you're always hustling trying to get different projects, and so when stuff drops into your lap, you're always like, oh great, let me just take this. It's right here, here's somebody offering to pay me for something. But when stuff comes to you, it is probably not exactly what you would have sought out. Now, it may be very close, in which case you're excited. That's wonderful. That's great when that happens. But if you're really having to convince yourself, like do all these mental gymnastics, be like, oh well, really, if I think about it this way, it's good or on this letter per hour. It'll be fine. Don't do it, Just don't do it. You have to be very careful with that because you never get that time back. Start an email newsletter and collect email addresses. I finally started doing this in twenty ten, but I should have done this in like two thousand and two. I mean, I was writing professionally then, and there were people who were reading me, and I could have if people wrote me, I could have written a newsle for those people who had come into my life is or you know, once I started a website, people who came there, people who I interviewed for one hundred and sixty eight hours or things like that. It would have made launching my first books a lot easier if I knew I could talk to my own warm audience, as opposed to just thinking the universe would be there somehow. You know, you learn a lot about publicity over the years, but starting an email newsletter earlier would have been much better. But I guess twenty two year old Laura I was too busy with her leather jacket to figure that out. So about the weak did you do the book title? Oh? Well, yeah, I guess if you have to explain the title of a book, you'll lose people. So just in general, which book does that refer to? Grindhopping, which was the early career book, So that was like a mid twenties kind of thing that I wrote. There's a reason people have not heard of it. I think that's the only one I haven't read. So there you go. Do you ever want to you can go, all right, Well, let's go to our question for the week. Do you want to read this one? Or sure? All right? And I think this is a very apropro question because I think a lot of people are going through a similar Yeah, so we can we can sort of disguise it so it will be the every woman question. Yes, all, I'm going to keep the city in there. I think that's important. All right, we'd love to hear an episode on best practices and strategies for returning to the office now that many companies are calling for their employees to return. I work in New York City at a leadership position at a major company and recently found out I will need to be in office three to five days per week. This fall, during the pandemic, we moved out of the city. So I'm struggling with how to plan for both parents to be out of the house twelve to thirteen hours a day to allow for commuting. My husband has to be in the office due to the nature of his job and was for the entire pandemic, so he cannot work from home. There seems to be limited flexibility at my company, so I would need to prepare to have childcare five days per week if business needs require it close sixty hours per week. Any tips for making this work. Feeling like a dual career household with commutes isn't really a viable option, but I would hate to have a major stepback in my career. There aren't many work options for me in the suburbs, and I worry if I leave New York City then my salary cut would be substantial enough that I wouldn't be able to afford full time childcare. I also don't want to be a weekend parent and barely see my children now that have gotten so many great memories while working from home. Any suggestions. I realize a career is not linear, and perhaps in a few years I may need to find something more part time until my kids are older. There are two and four I think many working mothers are facing similar situations, so thought this could be a good topic to hear more about. Great question. Yeah, I'm hearing this from a lot of people right now that you know, pre pandemic, they were in the office and had negotiated maybe occasionally work from home. Now they've worked from home full time for a year, and some places are really trying to get people back in almost full time, and a lot of people are just not interested in doing it. So we had a few thoughts. I mean, one is you could move back to the city. I mean, certainly some people who moved out of cities thinking that location would no longer matter. If it does turn out to matter, then the same rules pre pandemic applied, Like having a long commute is what often makes a big job unsustainable, especially if you have two parents commuting. And what we tend to see a lot of is that you know, mom winds up taking you know, scaling back because something happens in the middle of the day, kid needs to be picked up at school, and nobody's anywhere close to the school, and it's just harder to restart a career once you've gotten on that off that track, you can but it's hard. So we suggested, you know, you could move back, you know, so both of you had a short commute, both of you would be there, and that might have some upsides to it. We also suggested really trying to codify this three days in two days home, that this is the max. It would be that you absolutely can work from home at least two days per week. Ideally that they would be flexible. You choose which ones you want to do, so, you know, seeing if they would would go for that, instead of really saying, okay, well, maybe you can come back three days a week with the understanding that we're pushing toward five. And then there's always the option to find another job because a lot of places are in flux right now, so it is quite possible that you will find something more prestigious, better paying, and more flexible, and you just don't know until you look. Yes, agree with all of those. And one additional option is, you know, you mentioned the three days, actually looking at what your work duties are and even if the rule across the board is three to five, who knows, maybe there's somebody immediately above her who she could explain why in her particular special case it would be better for her to be two days, and maybe she it could be a quiet exception that is able to do things a little bit differently. And as for the moving back, they said that they had been planning on moving out anyway, so that didn't really apply to them. But I will say all the news headlines seem to be saying that the previously extremely pricey areas of like Manhattan and San Francisco are actually the areas who have had the largest recent drops in average rent. I'm sure it's still extremely expensive, but like moving back wouldn't be the craziest thing, especially if you were lucky and you've had time to move out right and your house is appreciated a whole bunch. So a lot of housing markets are still very hot right now, so it could actually be a strategic financial decision. Although caveat, don't take any real estate advice for me. As discussed from Sarah's PABs learnings, she may have not wished to have bought the house that she bought. Yeah, I have a slight fact checking thing I have to say from what I said earlier, Apparently the original Cosby trial was moved to the Pittsburgh area. I think and then the retrials and sentencing hearings were in my area, our local courthouse. So just to you were like, something doesn't stud doesn't talk. But why was I worried about getting jury duty or something for it? And then I was like, okay, because there was something here. It wasn't It wasn't just that it was made up out of whole cloth in my head. It was in our courthouse for part of it. So anyway, I love of the week, Sarah Mine is so I love the smell of honeysuckle. It's mostly gone now where we are. It was more of an early June thing, but I would I would walk around and sort of breathe in the smell. And I was attempting to buy various soaps that would smell like honeysuckle, like the Missus Meyers stuff, and nothing really got the scent right. And then I mentioned this on my blog and one of my readers wrote in, I'm finding it on my desk because I have everything on my desk here. One of my readers wrote in that the fresh brand Honeysuckle moisturizing hand cream smelled just like honeysuckle, and in fact it does, so I will put that out there if somebody wants to perch. It's just the smell of honeysuckle and experience it beyond the first two weeks of June. This moisturizing cream will do it. You know. It's funny because like where we live, I feel like we have such different like flora and fauna than you guys. And for example, the cicadas that everybody's talking about, like I've never seen one, at least not since childhood and maybe the nineteen eighties invasion that we had back then. But we also have the same honeysuckle timing. So when you were mentioning it, I was going on runs and like, oh my god, that is like a heady, like it is a strong scent when you're running. It almost makes me want to sneeze or something. But it is lovely and I love fresh products, so that's awesome, all right. My love of the week is I've been doing the Peloton strength training. I know I've crossed over to the dark side or something, but it's actually really great and I would specifically recommend if anybody is a runner, the strength workouts for runners, which are like a specific category that you can search for are really really good. They're not like too hard, they seem like just challenging enough, and I can see why. The movements are kind of designed to help strengthen the muscles that you use and running. And I love this one instructor Bex Gentry. She's from the UK. She just has this very kind, like, I don't know, accepting kind of vibe to her, not pushing you in a threatening kind of way like some previous instructors I may have enjoyed on screen. But she's great. So if you are looking to branch out in your strength work, you can try that. All right, Well, we got our Honeysuckle cream and our Peloton apps, so we will be back. We've been talking this week about our graduation advice. I'm not sure we could have given that graduation advice for our earlier younger selves. Check out the Peloton app and the Honeysuckle cream. Anyway. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.