Healing Intergenerational and Ancestral Trauma with Linda Thai (Series SRIW, Ep 5, 206)

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All the ways in which we numb out
and protect ourselves from shame,

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get in the way of authenticity, and they
get in the way of authentic belonging.

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And yet, when it comes to that
piece about racialized trauma,

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racism is not about belonging.

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Racism is not about not
fitting in or not belonging.

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Racism is about dignity.

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And so where are the spaces
where we can experience safety,

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physical safety, as well as
psychological safety and agency?

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Because when you combine physical
and psychological safety with agency,

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this in the capacity for
authentic self-expression,

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for taking up space for
the dignity of mattering,

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and a byproduct of that
dignity is belonging.

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Welcome to Therapist Uncensored, building
on decades of professional experience.

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That's dsea stories.com/to. Hey everybody,

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thank you for coming back and
joining us at Therapist and censored.

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We are thrilled to have you and could
not be more excited to introduce you to

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our guest today.

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Linda Tai is a trauma therapist and
educator who specializes in brain and

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body-based modalities for addressing
complex developmental trauma.

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Her work centers on healing with
a special focus on experiences of

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adult children of refugees
and immigrants. Welcome,

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welcome to the show.

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It's a pleasure to be here, Sue.

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So I would love to hear, if you
don't mind context a little bit,

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you were born in South Vietnam? Yeah.

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Yes. So I was born in South Vietnam
just after the fall of Saigon,

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so at the end of the Vietnam War.

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And my family are former
Vietnamese vote people.

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So I'm a former child refugee,
and my parents are also refugees.

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And you know, it's taken the
entirety of my life to actually

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grasp the context within
which the circumstances

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of my becoming into this world arose.

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I felt so bereft in the world, you know,

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I had parents where we didn't even speak
the same language as each other because

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I'm living in Australia with them,

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and yet they speak Vietnamese and
I'm having struggles with mental

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health issues with addiction.

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I felt this huge gulf between us and
yet this immense desire to try and make

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sense of myself and of
them and of my life.

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And it was well into my thirties
that I was able to go, oh,

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you know, traditional set psychology
says, what's wrong with you? Yeah,

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trauma informed psychology
says what happened to you.

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And that being its own journey,
right? That what happened to you.

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Yeah.

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And then culturally informed
psychology says what happened

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to your people? And
liberation psychology says,

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and what continues to
happen to your people?

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And to be able to have discovered
Alaska where I live these days

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on the traditional lands of the Dene
Athabascan Peoples of the Middle

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Tanana Valley,

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has allowed me enough bandwidth
to be able to unpack all

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of that because there's so
many layers to the context

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that no one explained to me.

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I experienced an immense
series of light bulbs going off

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when I discovered Galbo mate's work.

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And then when I discovered Bessel
VanDerKolk's work specifically,

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the body keeps the score.
And yet when I read,

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the Body Keeps the Score.
It was so evident to me that
I was a trauma survivor.

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I had all the symptoms,

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but I didn't have a trauma that
I could pin something onto.

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And then when asking my parents about it,

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I discovered all of the refugee
trauma that was there for us.

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And yet growing up in our household,
there was simply benign neglect.

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And so a part of me has been
feeling like I'm looking for a

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trauma or traumas or abuse
that perhaps doesn't exist.

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And it's only been in the last
couple of years that I've actually

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unpacked the impact of racialized
trauma and the ways in which the

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invisible wounds of racialized
trauma has impacted me

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psychically, psychologically

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impacted how I move through the
world as well as my worldview,

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which has then given me pause

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and has made me very
passionate about sharing

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about this into the world. And
it was emergent today, right?

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Just earlier in, in our interview
where I started going through,

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you know, traditional psychology
and then trauma informed psychology,

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and there was a pause and you
interjected. And I was like, no, no,

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there's more around culturally informed
psychology and liberation psychology.

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And yet I never learned about
that in graduate school.

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And so many of our listeners who are
professionals don't learn about it in

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graduate school or after graduate school.

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And so I feel in so many
ways that we're all at this

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cutting edge

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where it's messy and we're
having these conversations,

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and yet there are pioneers in this
field who are leading us that little bit

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further.

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And it comes back to the
liberation psychology ethos that

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centers the first person
narrative, the testimonial

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as of utmost importance

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when we are exploring
the voices of those who

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inhabit bodies that are
marginalized by society.

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Because we don't get
researched, not by us,

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about us, for us. And yet
when we start to speak up,

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we then get met with, where's
the research behind this? Oh,

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this is just your lived experience.
Oh, we can dismiss that.

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When it doesn't fit our
preexisting unconscious

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projections about how the world works
and what is security and what is not

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security. And it's one of the, just,

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I'm so delighted to talk with you to
help us expand our ideas about that.

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But if we could go into it,
which is racialized trauma,

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can you say more about what you mean
about that and kind of your personal

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experience of how that's impacted you?

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So here's where I just wanna pause
and acknowledge the works of Dr.

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Kenneth Hardy and Res Manum
amongst many others, but they've,

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they've been my two main
teachers in this field.

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When we look at racialized trauma,
it happens within a context.

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That context also happens
over time. And this is where,

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if I just name some of the
invisibleized wounds of racialized

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trauma, and this is Dr. Kenneth Hardy's
work, it's an assaulted sense of self.

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It's internalized devaluation,
learned voicelessness,

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psychological homelessness,

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complex and ambiguous grief or loss,

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survival orientation and rage.

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And within that I would
also add internalized

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idealization of the
characteristics of those in power.

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And whenever I do my PowerPoint
presentations and draw upon Dr.

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Kenneth Hardie's work, I actually put up
that list and people sit there and go,

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wow, I get that. As a complex
developmental trauma survivor,

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I get all of those things and
assaultive sense of self internalized

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devaluation,

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internalize idealization of the
qualities of the person in power

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learned voicelessness, you know,
psychological homelessness,

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complex and ambiguous grief and
loss, survival, orientation and rage.

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And then I say these according to Dr.

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Kenneth Hardy are the invisibleized
wounds of racialized from.

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And that's where we hear that gasp.
And that's where for many of us,

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we then become aware of how so
many of the conversations that

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we have around race, around heterosexism,

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around cis genderism, around ableism,

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around sexism,

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how it's so easy for us to
default to our subjugated selves,

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how it's so easy for us to default
to that part of us that so deeply

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knows these words.

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And part of the work of allyship
is being able to recognize this,

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do our own work around those parts of
us that are wounded so that we can hold

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out or hold forward those parts
of ourselves for which this

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conversation is about whether the
conversation is about whiteness or the

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conversation is about ableism, or the
conversation is about the patriarchy.

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Or if the conversation
is about transphobic,

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because it's so easy for
us to to go pear shaped,

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we veer off the train,
tracks it, it goes wly.

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And for me to pause and go, wow,
where does this work land for me,

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for me to recognize that so much
of my core wounding around shame?

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And while I love the
work of Dr. Brene Brown,

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like I got so much out of that for
myself as well as for my clients.

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I worked in a dictionary
recovery for over 10 years.

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And we learned that all the ways in
which we numb out and protect ourselves

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from shame, get in the
way of authenticity,

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and they get in the way
of authentic belonging.

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And yet when it comes to that
piece about racialized trauma,

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racism is not about belonging.

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Racism is not about not
fitting in or not belonging.

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Racism is about dignity.

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And so where are the spaces
where we can experience safety,

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physical safety, as well as
psychological safety and agency?

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Because when you combine physical
and psychological safety with agency,

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there's then the capacity for
authentic self-expression,

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for taking up space for
the dignity of mattering,

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and a byproduct of that
dignity is belonging.

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And you had mentioned a Kenneth Hardy
quote before we got on that was really

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meaningful to you. Would
this be a good place to.

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Yes. Oh, thank you for that reminder.

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Yeah. He says so many brilliant things
and they rattle around inside of me.

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And one of the things that he says
is that when we inhabit a body

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that's racialized by society,

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we are too busy defending ourselves.
We're always defending ourselves.

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It's that assaulted sense of self. And
so we don't get to then define ourselves.

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And when we do define ourselves,

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we're defining ourselves in terms of
who we are, not rather than who we are.

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And even when we are defining
ourselves in terms of who we are,

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other people are then trying to
compartmentalize us or figure

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us out in relationship to the
categories, the stereotypes.

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So there then exists the opportunity or
the possibility within myself to lean

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towards the stereotype because
stereotypes arise for reason.

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And we each inhabit various
aspects of that stereotype.

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And part of my task is to
lean towards that stereotype

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without feeling like I
then need to defend myself.

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I get what you're saying,

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especially in context with a quote that
if we're pressing against something,

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I'm gay, but I'm not X, y, z.

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It's still a disownment of
potentially parts of ourselves.

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Would you be comfortable saying
how that applies in your case?

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Like if you were to lean into it,

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like what do you get the benefit of
moving into in yourself that you might

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otherwise miss or not even know?

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Sure.

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So when I was defining myself
in terms of who I am, not,

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what that butts up against for me
is white proximity as a survival

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strategy, male proximity
as a survival strategy,

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and internalizing qualities
of whiteness and maleness

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and rejecting aspects of
my own cultural identity.

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That's the painful part.

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The parts of myself that I
gave away in order to survive.

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Where it's giving away aspects of
identity, of culture, of language,

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of food, of heritage,

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that I actually never got the chance to
fully inhabit as a result of the forced

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displacement of being
a former child refugee.

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And the complex and
ambiguous grief that arises

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as a result of acknowledging
and recognizing all of that.

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And then leaning towards
what could open up for me.

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And then there's also the
stereotypes of Asians as being smart,

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as having the answer of being emotionally

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unavailable and not being
able to be trustworthy.

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'cause I say no when I say mean
yes. And say yes when I mean no.

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And I ardently stro for such a
long time to not be that Asian,

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00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:54,600
and I strove not to be the Asian
who couldn't speak the language and

231
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,360
only had Asian friends and only
hung out with other Asians.

232
00:15:59,300 --> 00:16:00,640
And in the process of that,

233
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,360
I lost my asianness that I never got to

234
00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:10,280
experience or inhabit my Vietnamese ness.

235
00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:14,960
You know, Jake Caspian Kang
talks about this in his book,

236
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,280
the Loneliest Americans,

237
00:16:17,460 --> 00:16:22,400
how as a result of
assimilating ourselves in the

238
00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:25,080
hopes of getting closer
and closer to whiteness,

239
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:30,720
we then not only distance ourselves
from ourselves and our own

240
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:31,720
cultural heritages,

241
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,600
we also distance ourselves from other
black and brown bodies while at the

242
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,920
same time not ever being white.

243
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:45,040
As you were going there. I just
felt so emotional actually.

244
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,040
And the words that came to me
were like finding home, you know,

245
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,480
like as you began to refind these parts
of you that you had disowned, but then,

246
00:16:53,740 --> 00:16:56,840
you know, this is part of the trauma
is like, but that wasn't home <laugh>.

247
00:16:57,220 --> 00:17:02,040
And I just think you've spoken so
brilliantly about that idea of like the

248
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,880
loss of something that,
and it's the absence of,

249
00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:09,840
and like how can you grieve something
that you didn't, that didn't happen.

250
00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:13,800
So I can feel it as painful, but yeah,

251
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,680
that is an interesting concept of how
do you grieve something that didn't

252
00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:17,693
happen?

253
00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:21,920
We have to name it because
we can't grieve something,

254
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:23,920
we can't mourn something
unless we name it.

255
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:30,160
And we live in a very concrete society
where grief is typically framed as I

256
00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:31,600
had something and now it's gone,

257
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:35,400
and now I can wrap up my
head around your grief

258
00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:39,440
and then help you with solutions for that.

259
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,273
<Laugh>.

260
00:17:44,390 --> 00:17:45,440
Yeah, we're gonna fix.

261
00:17:45,450 --> 00:17:46,560
We're gonna fix that right up.

262
00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:47,813
Uh.

263
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,720
<Laugh>. Yes. And when it comes
to these unnameable losses,

264
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:54,880
it's a grief over something I never got.

265
00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:59,840
And yet in my work with adult children of

266
00:18:00,250 --> 00:18:01,083
alcoholics,

267
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:05,440
that's where I actually then started to
recognize the grief for the inner child,

268
00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:08,360
the grief for what we didn't get,

269
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:12,120
and the pervasive weight,

270
00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:17,040
the vastness of that emptiness and the

271
00:18:17,570 --> 00:18:20,000
loneliness. The loneliness,

272
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,520
I mean across all forms of
attachment disruption is

273
00:18:24,610 --> 00:18:25,443
loneliness.

274
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,900
My understanding of as a cisgender
white woman, I don't know,

275
00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:31,460
but the trans experience,

276
00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:36,020
like not having an i this identity
that was recognized in the world,

277
00:18:36,020 --> 00:18:38,580
even recognized by yourself as a child,

278
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,900
the concept of it has to
form. And in some ways,

279
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:47,980
the only way that it ever
forms is that by it being

280
00:18:49,210 --> 00:18:52,140
like manifest out there, which
is some of your work, is like,

281
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:55,180
let's form it so that you
can get to the grieving.

282
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:58,300
Yes. And let's form that community.

283
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,620
And even just the idea or
even the feeling of it or the,

284
00:19:02,850 --> 00:19:06,420
it's like you, uh, we
talked about emergent,

285
00:19:06,450 --> 00:19:09,860
it's like the way that I'm thinking,
I'm not sure if this is right, but like,

286
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:13,100
it's, it's not a thing you can
point to. It's like you said,

287
00:19:13,100 --> 00:19:14,580
is this is ambiguous loss.

288
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,820
So it's like it begins to form as
like there is something there, but I,

289
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,260
how do you name what that is?

290
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,740
And even without the
name as it takes form,

291
00:19:24,370 --> 00:19:27,540
then there's something that you
can feel that is missing or there,

292
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,620
or that you can relate to. But
there is something about it being,

293
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,660
it needs to be manifest in the world
in order to even know that it's not

294
00:19:35,660 --> 00:19:39,740
available. <laugh>, no, I feel like I'm
talking in circles, but I think you're,

295
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,980
are you following <laugh>? Am
I on the right track? Yeah.

296
00:19:43,090 --> 00:19:43,770
Yeah.

297
00:19:43,770 --> 00:19:45,300
Help me out. Help me out. <laugh>.

298
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,300
No, I, there's so much joy
in the struggle, right?

299
00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:52,900
There's so much joy in going yes, you too.

300
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,140
You are trying to touch
something and it's not there,

301
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:57,660
but you know it's there because
you keep reaching for it,

302
00:19:58,970 --> 00:20:02,500
knowing that it's supposed to be
there. And yet it's so elusive.

303
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:08,860
You know, that piece, the piece
about if I'm always defending myself,

304
00:20:08,940 --> 00:20:11,980
I don't get to define myself as children.

305
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,380
One of the developmental actions of
attachment is to be able to push against,

306
00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:19,700
because when I push against you,

307
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:24,170
I know that I am real
because you are pushing back.

308
00:20:25,070 --> 00:20:29,770
And if I can push against and
have that be distinct from pushing

309
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:30,873
away,

310
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,210
then I learn how to set boundaries and
have boundaries as well as how to let go.

311
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,370
Because I know the difference
between pushing against that.

312
00:20:39,370 --> 00:20:42,490
It gives me a sense of
being real and pushing away.

313
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:48,240
And when it comes to racialized
identity, which is, you know,

314
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:51,200
there's so much in terms of
child development that's here in,

315
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,120
in amongst all of this that I'm hoping
that I can form solidarity with,

316
00:20:55,470 --> 00:20:59,200
with therapists and with folks who are
working their way through their own

317
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,360
childhood stuff, right?

318
00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:04,440
Is that as someone who
inhabits a racialized identity,

319
00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:10,160
when I'm busy defending myself,
I'm pushing against and the,

320
00:21:10,260 --> 00:21:12,080
and yet that's how I know that I'm real.

321
00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:18,710
And so can I define myself by
pushing against and being met with

322
00:21:18,740 --> 00:21:19,573
community

323
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:25,820
yet met with a container and we
talk about containers all the time

324
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:26,860
in, in therapy.

325
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,380
Can I be met with that
rather than be met with

326
00:21:34,330 --> 00:21:35,780
confusion, judgment.

327
00:21:37,940 --> 00:21:42,340
<Laugh>, aggression even right aggression.
Yeah, that isn't, that isn't true.

328
00:21:42,340 --> 00:21:44,220
That isn't right. Uhhuh.

329
00:21:45,020 --> 00:21:48,540
Minimization, denial analysis,

330
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:54,300
<laugh> as well as
aspects of other people's

331
00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:58,900
unresolved aspects of self
that also emerge in the moment.

332
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:04,140
And it gets so messy and pushing
against one another. You know,

333
00:22:04,140 --> 00:22:07,540
in the mental health field here, as
therapists are struggling, you know,

334
00:22:07,540 --> 00:22:11,940
this notion of shame and shame
being kind of the quick go-to

335
00:22:12,810 --> 00:22:16,900
that can stop relationship, we had
sort of spoken about that. Yes.

336
00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:21,740
Because oftentimes it outbeat to push
against so that you push against me

337
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,180
so I feel real, what
happens I push against.

338
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:31,380
And other responses are
I get pushed away or

339
00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:35,900
I am still pushing because
there isn't a container.

340
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:37,700
So I'm trying to find that container.

341
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:42,540
So then I get even more vocal
and physical with my pushing

342
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,140
in an attempt to get a
need met for feeling real.

343
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,620
And yet when it isn't
met with enough pressure,

344
00:22:51,650 --> 00:22:55,380
what emerges in that space
of not being met is shame.

345
00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,940
And so that then becomes part of
that assaulted sense of self and

346
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:05,620
internalized evaluation
as well as internalized

347
00:23:06,090 --> 00:23:10,380
devaluation. I'm then constantly
assessing what's wrong with me,

348
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,160
the ways in which I'm not
enough or I'm too much, right?

349
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,840
The two core wounds, I'm
too much, I'm not enough.

350
00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:24,080
How can I shift reshape who I

351
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,720
am in order to get my
attachment needs met?

352
00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:32,920
But beneath attachment is
physical and psychological safety

353
00:23:34,940 --> 00:23:38,920
and dignity for self-expression.
And so then I'm,

354
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:42,240
I'm actually always assessing
is it okay for me to be me?

355
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,730
I believe there's our own
individual work to do,

356
00:23:45,730 --> 00:23:48,640
but then there's also the
communal and the community.

357
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:54,680
And my own journey has
been one where by the

358
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:55,920
time I was a young adult,

359
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,600
if Fox actually had asked me about
my Vietnamese heritage or ancestry,

360
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,000
I would've looked at them really
blankly and said, I don't know

361
00:24:03,540 --> 00:24:08,160
in that a whole bunch of shame would've
come up because there's also within

362
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:13,120
culture shame about how I've
get judged and assessed by other

363
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,680
Vietnamese people about the ways
in which I've lost my roots.

364
00:24:18,660 --> 00:24:21,960
And then I'm a big walking ball of
shame and I'm not able to step into that

365
00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:26,560
space. And yet at the same time
being able to slowly unpack that

366
00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:30,440
has been where, you know,

367
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:34,840
I have such gratitude for the 12
step groups I've been a part of

368
00:24:35,890 --> 00:24:39,770
'cause that is shame, resiliency.
In the words of Brene Brown,

369
00:24:39,870 --> 00:24:44,050
I'm sharing my story to those who've
earned the right to share my story about

370
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:45,233
addiction.

371
00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:50,410
And then in adult children of alcoholics
and others raised in dysfunctional

372
00:24:50,690 --> 00:24:54,490
families, even though my family was
not alcoholic and there wasn't abuse,

373
00:24:55,330 --> 00:24:56,650
I still had all those symptoms.

374
00:24:57,590 --> 00:25:01,610
And so I got to share my story with
always who earned the right to hear my

375
00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:04,290
story. And yet the longer
I stayed in those groups,

376
00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:07,170
the more that I saw that there were
aspects that weren't being talked about

377
00:25:07,230 --> 00:25:11,610
around race and also around war. We don't
talk about war and the impact of war.

378
00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:15,050
And yet it got me further
along in the journey.

379
00:25:16,110 --> 00:25:20,450
And then I discovered the work of
adult children of Holocaust survivors.

380
00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:23,890
Not that I would ever wish to conflate
what happened to my people with,

381
00:25:24,270 --> 00:25:26,850
you know, what happened
to Holocaust survivors.

382
00:25:26,910 --> 00:25:31,810
And yet there are threads of that that
landed for me in my experience that

383
00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:35,860
caused me to go, oh, my
parents are trauma survivors.

384
00:25:36,060 --> 00:25:39,980
I had no idea. And I'm living
the aftermath of what that means.

385
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,540
And so with each stage of the journey
or each layer of the unfolding,

386
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:51,100
there are parts of myself that
begin to open up so that when I

387
00:25:51,130 --> 00:25:53,700
work with other folks who
come to me and they say,

388
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,540
I'm adamant I'm a white person and that
has been my narrative my entire life,

389
00:25:59,820 --> 00:26:04,060
I can actually say, yeah, I get
that. And where shall we begin?

390
00:26:04,890 --> 00:26:09,700
Because the temptation
within a society that has an

391
00:26:10,060 --> 00:26:14,180
insecure attachment relationship
to time and to productivity

392
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,940
is to want to fix and provide
the solutions right now.

393
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,340
All right, let's talk about our
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00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,380
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I just am hungry for these concepts.

442
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Say more <laugh>.

443
00:29:30,810 --> 00:29:32,010
I got so much,

444
00:29:33,070 --> 00:29:36,530
so much juiciness from
white bodied people,

445
00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:40,530
which is a phrase I I take from res
manum, you know, white bodied folks.

446
00:29:41,340 --> 00:29:45,840
And I learned so much from white bodied

447
00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:50,000
psychotherapists and
psychotherapy modalities and

448
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:55,040
attachment theory helped to make
my world make a lot more sense

449
00:29:56,700 --> 00:30:01,680
and yet it did nothing to
repair the relationship
between myself and my parents.

450
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:05,880
And I actually, uh,

451
00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:10,880
Kai Ching Tom was actually the person
who raised to my awareness like

452
00:30:10,950 --> 00:30:15,840
very searingly that psychotherapy is

453
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,560
derived from white colonizers, settler
paradigms and lenses and approaches.

454
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:26,240
And when I heard her say
that I was actually deeply

455
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,840
immersed in Brene Brown and Dr.

456
00:30:30,970 --> 00:30:35,960
VanDerKolk Bessel VanDerKolk and
Stephen Porges and Peter Levine

457
00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:41,400
and Bonnie Badnock and the
attachment researchers of the

458
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,440
generation before them.

459
00:30:43,060 --> 00:30:48,040
And yet to pause and to
tap into a universality of

460
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,520
what secure attachment could
possibly mean caused me to

461
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,280
recognize and this is
Este Perez's work, right?

462
00:30:56,350 --> 00:30:59,120
That relationships is a
relationality with all,

463
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,160
with all things with life itself. Yeah.

464
00:31:02,780 --> 00:31:05,400
Not just our relationship with
our parents, it's also our,

465
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,040
I think she keeps it mostly to people.

466
00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:12,200
And living here on indigenous land,

467
00:31:12,810 --> 00:31:16,080
there was something that healed for
me that I didn't realize was missing

468
00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:20,800
secure attachment to the earth, to nature,

469
00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:25,520
to the seasons and the rhythms
of nature and the seasons,

470
00:31:26,780 --> 00:31:31,400
how to grow food and where it comes from
and how to tend to the earth and how to

471
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:32,400
hunt and fish

472
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:38,880
and grow and preserve
and take what I need and

473
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:39,800
only what I need.

474
00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:45,320
And right in there that small
bit there is to recognize that I

475
00:31:45,620 --> 00:31:49,000
had learned a survival oriented
relationship to my needs.

476
00:31:49,790 --> 00:31:53,440
That when I experience a need, I
go, no, I don't, I don't have needs.

477
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,360
What are you talking about? And
when that need becomes overwhelming,

478
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,440
I then go into fight or
flight about that need.

479
00:31:58,700 --> 00:32:00,840
You're either on my side
or you're in my way.

480
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:06,720
And then I project that onto
other people and I dismiss other

481
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,320
people and their needs
as being needy and or I

482
00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:16,240
mistake love as you being able to
attune to and connect to and fulfill

483
00:32:16,260 --> 00:32:19,640
my needs without me needing to ask
for it. Because if you loved me,

484
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:20,960
I wouldn't have to ask.

485
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:27,400
So relating with my own needs
and the needs of others,

486
00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,760
the needs of the planet
secure relating with ancestors

487
00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:36,080
and not just ancestors who
are bloodline ancestors,

488
00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:38,600
but there's also professional ancestors.

489
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,480
A religious ancestors are spiritual
ancestors and the teachers of my teachers

490
00:32:43,540 --> 00:32:46,840
and my ancestors with a capital A, right?

491
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:51,720
The elemental ancestors of earth
and wind and fire and and warmth

492
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:52,660
and water.

493
00:32:52,660 --> 00:32:57,560
And when I'm up in the mountains of
Alaska on all fours and drinking from

494
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:02,440
a mountain stream with just my
mouth making contact with the

495
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,480
water and my hands and legs on the earth,

496
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:10,880
I'm connecting with the
ancestors who are caribou

497
00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:15,760
and grass and the rain from the rainbow

498
00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:20,520
or through the rainbow that becomes the
stream that then moves on into the river

499
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,800
valley. That becomes a glacier, right?

500
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,640
These capital A ancestors.

501
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:32,560
And then there's secure relating
to culture and there's an ancient

502
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,080
technology that wes it way through
all cultures. Its soul movement,

503
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,120
storytelling or stories and silence.

504
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:47,400
So to relate securely with these
aspects of culture and cultural

505
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,520
heritage as well as the rituals,

506
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,200
which are the containers for
song and movement and story

507
00:33:55,340 --> 00:34:00,320
and silence that mark the
passage across the course of

508
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,280
a human lifetime

509
00:34:02,820 --> 00:34:07,800
as well as the containers of
language and customs and food and

510
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,640
ways of being and moving in this world.

511
00:34:11,390 --> 00:34:14,920
They give us a sense of kinship as well as

512
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,280
ancestry and ancestral lineage.

513
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:24,840
And then there's secure attachment
relating to my body and to bodies

514
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:30,680
to touch to a for kind
and sensuous relationship

515
00:34:31,350 --> 00:34:34,400
with life around me. In the
words of Francis Weller,

516
00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:37,480
where I can feel

517
00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:42,960
the Jew on a fiddlehead fur and smell it

518
00:34:45,940 --> 00:34:50,840
and smell the air that that
Jew has passed through and

519
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,800
the earth that that Jew has
emerged from this sensuality

520
00:34:56,980 --> 00:35:01,280
and living life through our
senses as another way of knowing

521
00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:05,800
and relating. And then
there's with the body,

522
00:35:06,270 --> 00:35:10,720
it's also secure relating to
pleasure, to rest, to sleep,

523
00:35:11,620 --> 00:35:16,160
to joy, to work and to time.

524
00:35:16,710 --> 00:35:21,560
Because all of like this decolonized
perspective on secure attachment

525
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:26,120
is a cosmology. It's a
worldview, it's a way of being.

526
00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:28,000
And within that,

527
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,800
particularly that secure attachment
relating to time which becomes disrupted

528
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,880
within our capitalistic societies,

529
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,760
I then know my place in the
bigger scheme of things.

530
00:35:41,540 --> 00:35:46,400
And when we don't experience place where

531
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,520
we belong in the greater scheme of things,

532
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:53,840
then we become really busy trying
to find our place and secure

533
00:35:53,900 --> 00:35:58,280
our place. And we live in
a world that says, Hey,

534
00:35:59,020 --> 00:36:03,400
let me give you legitimacy with
these letters after your name,

535
00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:05,120
with this next certificate,

536
00:36:05,550 --> 00:36:10,440
with this pay rise and a
job title change with a

537
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,360
change in role for some of us, you know,

538
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,640
becoming a parent is actually a way of
becoming more legitimate in the world and

539
00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:22,680
in the eyes of our parents. We might
get given more legitimacy in the world.

540
00:36:23,620 --> 00:36:28,400
And yet that striving for
legitimacy can be born from

541
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,000
a sense of not having experienced place.

542
00:36:33,980 --> 00:36:38,320
And so I feel ever so grateful for my
journey of having been displaced and

543
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,880
uprooted in such a way that's
proximate and yet distant

544
00:36:43,030 --> 00:36:47,200
meaning that I was two years
old that has allowed me to

545
00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:52,320
experience the reverberations and
aftermath and work through them

546
00:36:54,540 --> 00:36:59,400
in such a way that maybe perhaps
it might be an offering to

547
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,120
someone out there in the world.

548
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,500
One of the things I love about how you
speak about these things as a disruptor

549
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,940
is that you are able to do
it in a way that other people

550
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,100
aren't resourced enough. Or
another way of saying that is,

551
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,380
as you were describing, kind of
the achievement and you know,

552
00:37:18,380 --> 00:37:22,620
all of us on the rabbit wheel
and that that's all that we know,

553
00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:23,820
that's where we've been pointed.

554
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,940
So there's a way that you really hold
that and acknowledge that as you're also

555
00:37:29,980 --> 00:37:32,540
striving to disrupt that, that
there you're kind of saying,

556
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,740
and I hope I can be part two of saying
like, there's more, there's other paths,

557
00:37:37,740 --> 00:37:40,980
there's other ways and
those ideas and those,

558
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:44,420
the pointers and the it
has to form and that,

559
00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:48,860
that's I think some of seems
like your journey is like to help

560
00:37:49,450 --> 00:37:54,180
this alternative mode of relating
and being and finding oneself

561
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,580
and coming together to
create that as a possibility.

562
00:37:57,580 --> 00:38:00,980
Because I don't know that
it's a possibility when you
look up and the carrot's

563
00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:02,980
right in front of you and you just
keep going 'cause that's where you're

564
00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:07,260
supposed to go. But I love the gentleness
that you talk about it so that,

565
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,860
you know, wherever we find
ourselves on this path,

566
00:38:10,290 --> 00:38:14,860
even under-resourced parents
who are also traumatized,

567
00:38:15,090 --> 00:38:16,060
that you know,

568
00:38:16,060 --> 00:38:19,100
there's a way of like seeing them and
telling the truth about what happened,

569
00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:23,820
but also really kind of holding them
in the, in the same, at the same time.

570
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,180
It feels like what we need as
a culture to be able to name it

571
00:38:29,450 --> 00:38:33,700
without blowing it up. Is that
right? Or is that me being too, um,

572
00:38:33,850 --> 00:38:36,680
soft about it? You know what
I mean? Like, am I saying,

573
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:39,320
oh we should all be nice as
we try to do these things,

574
00:38:39,730 --> 00:38:44,240
which I don't want to be saying
<laugh>, that's not what I mean,

575
00:38:44,580 --> 00:38:46,640
I'm good with, uh, blowing
things up if needed.

576
00:38:47,340 --> 00:38:51,520
But there's something I guess about
aggression and assertiveness pushing

577
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:53,800
versus pushing away.

578
00:38:54,390 --> 00:38:58,720
Look, something I say all the
time is right message, wrong.

579
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:03,360
Delivery is wrong message, right
message, wrong timing is wrong message.

580
00:39:04,460 --> 00:39:08,800
And in amongst the world
of social justice voices,

581
00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:14,560
there are times when my nervous system
is up here and I'm full of passion

582
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:20,360
and yet it's very easy for other nervous
systems to misinterpret my passion as

583
00:39:20,410 --> 00:39:22,560
aggression or aggressiveness.

584
00:39:23,790 --> 00:39:28,560
It's very easy to misinterpret excitement
as I'm gonna be overwhelmed by that.

585
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:33,800
And there have been times when my
nervous system is down here and

586
00:39:34,540 --> 00:39:38,640
I'm pacing things more slowly and there
are other nervous systems in the space

587
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:43,440
that are like, come on, I want you to
ramp it up, like give it to me with a,

588
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,720
with a passionate delivery. And so I get,

589
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:52,680
and I hold with so much love that we each

590
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,000
have different nervous systems.

591
00:39:55,540 --> 00:40:00,400
And to be able to just
hold that and to find the

592
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,800
resource that you need for you,
the resource that I need for me,

593
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:10,400
so that I can continue
to be myself and know

594
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,960
that I am enough in this world as I am.

595
00:40:13,910 --> 00:40:18,010
And I hope that it can be okay that
today I have a gentle delivery <laugh>

596
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:23,250
and that it doesn't get
misinterpreted as, you know,

597
00:40:24,370 --> 00:40:28,890
a weaponizing of calmness and a
lack of passion for the topic.

598
00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:34,090
I also get that for many folks out there
being able to hear some of the things

599
00:40:34,090 --> 00:40:38,890
that I've said today in like with the
nervous system I'm currently inhabiting is

600
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:42,930
actually the delivery that is meeting

601
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,050
your nervous system.

602
00:40:47,230 --> 00:40:49,290
And if that is what
you learned from today,

603
00:40:49,530 --> 00:40:52,770
I mean this is something I I've
I've been cognizant of for a while,

604
00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:58,470
is that when I learn how I
learn, I can learn anything.

605
00:40:59,650 --> 00:41:03,670
And as someone who started out
teaching meditation and teaching yoga,

606
00:41:04,150 --> 00:41:07,070
I was taught that teaching
is the art of observation.

607
00:41:07,850 --> 00:41:11,270
So when I learn how you learn,
I can teach you anything.

608
00:41:12,810 --> 00:41:16,310
And more importantly, when
I learn how you learn,

609
00:41:16,910 --> 00:41:21,830
I can teach you how you
learn and then you can go

610
00:41:22,290 --> 00:41:24,470
and learn anything you wanna learn.

611
00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:29,070
So let me just ask a
point of clarification.

612
00:41:29,210 --> 00:41:33,760
So when I said a moment ago about
the balance between disruptive and

613
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:35,100
did,

614
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:38,880
did I come across as saying that there
was anything wrong with your delivery?

615
00:41:39,580 --> 00:41:41,480
Mm-hmm. Okay. No, because.

616
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,920
When you went there I was like, oh
no, that's not what I meant. <laugh>,

617
00:41:44,060 --> 00:41:46,200
but <laugh>. See how it happens? <laugh>.

618
00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:52,040
So I just wanted to check it out. <laugh>,

619
00:41:56,430 --> 00:41:58,880
it's like that would be terrible <laugh>.

620
00:42:00,790 --> 00:42:01,800
It's like you're <laugh>.

621
00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:06,600
No, not at all, Sue. Not at all. Okay.

622
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:07,200
Okay. Yeah.

623
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,480
Good, good, good. Yeah,
that's, that's wonderful. Well,

624
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,320
I love this dance and I know
that many people that are

625
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760
listening are just as
moved as I am and you know,

626
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,920
what are next steps? Where
would you direct people?

627
00:42:22,540 --> 00:42:25,400
You know the folks that are just
excited and like, yes, that.

628
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:31,120
If I land into emergence and I speak
into that, which is emergent for me,

629
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:37,560
what my invitation would be would
be to invite you to step into that

630
00:42:37,630 --> 00:42:41,360
emergence for yourself, right?
Whatever emerges for you.

631
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:44,400
Because when we can
name that which emerges,

632
00:42:44,430 --> 00:42:49,400
what happens is then the
world will present us

633
00:42:49,470 --> 00:42:51,160
with the next piece.

634
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:54,880
And the world is actually always
presenting us with the next piece.

635
00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:59,280
We just don't see it because we're
not in alignment with emergence.

636
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,880
I love your answer by the way,

637
00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:07,200
otherwise there's just a new carrot
and you took the carrot away and it

638
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,480
is like, no, the carrot isn't
here, it's more of tuning in.

639
00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:13,640
And I really get that
it's our responsibility.

640
00:43:14,150 --> 00:43:18,960
There's not just something to sign up
for or something to go do that really

641
00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:22,840
is this practice of, you know,
we talk about it on the show,

642
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,760
it's like secure relating related to
like come back to yourself like being

643
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,960
your right size. You
don't have to be bigger,

644
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:33,120
you don't have to stand on your tippy
toes, <laugh>, you don't have to run,

645
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:36,640
you don't have, you know what I mean?
You don't have to shrink and huddle.

646
00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:39,400
It's like, what is your
right size right now?

647
00:43:40,180 --> 00:43:42,120
So I think a little bit of different
language, but the same thing,

648
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,680
it's like what's emergent for you,
the listener as you're hearing now.

649
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:51,280
Like it's right there. There's, you know,
there's no way someone that we have,

650
00:43:51,340 --> 00:43:54,280
you know, out here of a
disembodied voice can tell you.

651
00:43:55,180 --> 00:43:59,640
And that's what I so admire is you didn't
take the bait of that question and you

652
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,400
were able to pull it back in. It's like
it's inward, it's, there's not gonna,

653
00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:07,280
I'm not gonna give you a
link or a book or a program.

654
00:44:08,780 --> 00:44:09,800
So thank you for that.

655
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,960
And I think that that's very consistent
with the conversation and the message.

656
00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:17,080
Like it's, it's more of a discovery,
like discovery. What's next?

657
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,400
I don't know what's next for you.

658
00:44:19,860 --> 00:44:24,800
Yes. And I love that word discovery
and the process and the journey of

659
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,760
self-discovery. So many people come to
therapy and I see this with my clients.

660
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:34,360
They want me to get to know
them and I name that and I

661
00:44:34,630 --> 00:44:38,400
then name, you know, therapy is the
process of you getting to know you.

662
00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:42,200
It's a huge difference.
And within all of this,

663
00:44:42,750 --> 00:44:47,720
whether the conversation is about racism
or sexism or ableism or transphobia

664
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:54,400
is the opportunity and the
possibility of the invitation that

665
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:59,280
white bodied folks, that cisgender
folks, that heterosexual folks,

666
00:44:59,940 --> 00:45:04,400
the able-bodied folks that you'll
actually get to know more about yourself

667
00:45:06,340 --> 00:45:08,520
in this process. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

668
00:45:09,020 --> 00:45:11,400
You know, the person on the
treadmill that's successful.

669
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:15,880
You don't even know what you're
missing. When we work with, you know,

670
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,080
white men who have,

671
00:45:17,140 --> 00:45:20,080
are just part of the patriarchy in
the sense that they've absorbed it and

672
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,760
they're injured too because they haven't
had the benefit of the feedback right

673
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:29,200
away or the immediate pressing back
in the way that many of us have.

674
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,520
I mean, it's pain no matter what
direction it is that you're coming from,

675
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:37,160
it's not the same. It's not like,
you know, it's not equating anything.

676
00:45:37,820 --> 00:45:41,840
But I like that position because
there's compassion all the way around

677
00:45:42,790 --> 00:45:46,920
with the limit of, you
know, stop the intrusion.

678
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,080
I I didn't wanna get on a roll <laugh>.
No, no. So I stopped myself <laugh>.

679
00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:53,320
Those.

680
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,800
Masters out there, <laugh>.

681
00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:57,073
<Laugh>.

682
00:45:59,630 --> 00:46:02,680
That defeat, that defeats what I was
trying to say. But it is, but it's,

683
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,960
I really do mean that um, you
know, that we're all injured by it.

684
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:10,520
So I'm glad for the inclusive
language at the end round. It doesn't,

685
00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:15,480
even if you heteronormative able bodied
the script, if you fit the script,

686
00:46:15,630 --> 00:46:20,440
it's still uniquely a loss
of so many parts of you.

687
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:21,820
Yes.

688
00:46:21,820 --> 00:46:26,760
And the willingness to
become transformed by

689
00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:31,760
the process of what you'll discover
about yourself or what one discovers

690
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,440
about oneself. That's the
joy in allyship. Yeah.

691
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,560
And that's the difference between
performative allyship and true

692
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,880
allyship. And it's a
process. It's a process.

693
00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:48,640
It's my parents turning
around and saying to me,

694
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,760
I wanted to grow as a result of
bringing you into this world.

695
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:59,640
And that willingness to grow means
growing pains and discomfort and

696
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:01,800
the willingness to reckon with that.

697
00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:06,320
Mm-hmm <affirmative> and to not know and
to let go of all of these things that

698
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:10,320
have shielded us and buffered us
and privileged us and protected us.

699
00:47:11,180 --> 00:47:15,800
It is. And I'm so grateful that
you invited me onto your show,

700
00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:16,893
Sue <laugh>.

701
00:47:19,310 --> 00:47:20,480
Well I cannot tell you,

702
00:47:20,670 --> 00:47:23,440
I've been really excited about this and
I just wanna sort of sit at your knee

703
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,480
and just keep listening.
But there are ways,

704
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,360
you have many things that you do to
spread this incredible wisdom. Uh,

705
00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:33,440
we speak just briefly to that and let
us know how to tap in those of the

706
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:34,400
listeners that would like more.

707
00:47:34,940 --> 00:47:39,040
Yes, I have a website,
uh, www.lindatie.com.

708
00:47:39,740 --> 00:47:41,320
Please sign up for the newsletter.

709
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,960
I don't do one of those
sales pitching newsletters.

710
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,960
I do one of those newsletters of what I'm
up to and what I'm unlearning and what

711
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,080
is nourishing me and you know, the
things that I offer into the world,

712
00:47:53,110 --> 00:47:57,160
some of which is paid for and some
of which is free to the public, uh,

713
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,800
some of which is sponsored by
other agencies or organizations.

714
00:48:01,860 --> 00:48:05,640
And so there's ways in which to
connect and keep in touch with me.

715
00:48:06,540 --> 00:48:10,400
And in the newsletters I also celebrate
the work of other people out there.

716
00:48:10,460 --> 00:48:11,680
So it's not one of those,

717
00:48:12,350 --> 00:48:15,200
here let me sell you something
and tell you all about <laugh>,

718
00:48:15,340 --> 00:48:18,640
how awesome I am in terms
of my expert knowledge.

719
00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:22,040
<Laugh>, it is not a sales
funnel <laugh>, right?

720
00:48:23,020 --> 00:48:24,240
Is that the fancy word?

721
00:48:24,860 --> 00:48:27,480
That's the fancy word. That's
the fancy word. You know,

722
00:48:27,490 --> 00:48:31,000
click here to get this free something or
another and then you put in your email,

723
00:48:31,060 --> 00:48:33,840
you know, it's, yeah, it's terrible. Yeah.

724
00:48:34,540 --> 00:48:35,373
It is terrible.

725
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:41,080
<Laugh>. Well it is, it's the, it's
it's the carrot again. The carrot,

726
00:48:41,140 --> 00:48:44,440
the carrot, the carrot, you
know, so that's wonderful.

727
00:48:44,460 --> 00:48:48,680
So we'll we will put all of that in the
show notes and any other resources that

728
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:49,513
you share with me,

729
00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:53,840
go to therapist and sensor.com and then
there's a search function and you can

730
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,760
put anything that you wanna
know about. But Linda Tai,

731
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,840
t h a i is who has blessed
us with her experience and

732
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:06,680
wisdom and we also wanna acknowledge
that it is a real gift for you to

733
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:07,513
share your story.

734
00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:11,680
That it's not something that you have
to do and really appreciate that.

735
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:13,280
Alright everybody,

736
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:17,200
thank you very much for joining us and
for sticking through this beautiful

737
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:21,640
conversation and we really encourage you
to share it with someone that you feel

738
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,480
could benefit. That's all I'm gonna
ask is just, just share the word.

739
00:49:26,190 --> 00:49:28,400
Alright, thanks for listening.
We'll see you around the bed.

740
00:49:29,310 --> 00:49:32,200
We'd like to thank a long-term
sponsor of our show, AG one.

741
00:49:32,590 --> 00:49:35,160
I've been taking it daily
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742
00:49:35,450 --> 00:49:37,920
which for me is amazing
'cause I forget things a lot.

743
00:49:38,260 --> 00:49:43,080
But I make a real effort to take AG one
regularly because it basically gives me

744
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all the good things. It has high
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745
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746
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which serve to calm down your overeager
stress response system. You know,

747
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,153
we would like that.

748
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,560
I feel good about recommending that
you try it and encouraging you to keep

749
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,200
taking it. If you are already on board,

750
00:49:59,300 --> 00:50:03,920
go to athletic greens.com/therapist
uncensored and use that link

751
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:08,480
'cause our listeners will get a free
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752
00:50:08,530 --> 00:50:10,640
packs for you to be able to
take the superpower on the road.

753
00:50:10,940 --> 00:50:15,560
That's athletic
greens.com/therapist uncensored.

754
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:22,760
Therapist.

755
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,160
Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

756
00:50:25,230 --> 00:50:27,680
This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.