Clinically Dead Man Describes Meeting God In Perfect Detail with Jeffery Olsen

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<v SPEAKER_00>Came back from death.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They saw my wife's spirit in the operating room.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was in a horrible automobile accident and it crushed both my legs.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My wife and youngest son were killed instantly in the accident.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was aware of that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I lose consciousness.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Everything went dark, but then I actually felt light come.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was like tangible light surrounding me, comforting me.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I felt as if I was rising above the accident scene, and suddenly I could breathe.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was held.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Suddenly, my wife, who I knew was deceased at the scene, she's there with me, and she's very much alive.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You can't stay, gotta go.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I'm moving through and I'm encountering all these people and having all these feelings and having this absolute oneness, this connection.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then I come to a body that I don't feel anything from, which was odd given the experience I was having, and I stepped closer, and that's when I looked and thought, oh my goodness, that's me.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It was a conversation.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Did you ask questions?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Can you remember what you talked about or asked or how the conversation went?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Today we welcomed Jeffrey Olson, an unimaginable story.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Wait till you hear this.

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<v SPEAKER_02>But he survived, and that kind of tips off this story, and he survived his wife and son.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And you're gonna hear an unimaginable story.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I can't even imagine this happening to anybody.

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<v SPEAKER_02>That said, to help us become more joyful.

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<v SPEAKER_02>He chose it.

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<v SPEAKER_02>You have to hear this because I do believe it's a choice, but a not only a near-death experience that he literally came back from.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I cannot wait to hear what this means.

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<v SPEAKER_02>You came back from death.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And we're here obviously with my lovely wife, Marilee, because any pain-to-purpose story, I want her here too.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Jeffrey, thanks for joining us.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, Doctor, it's a pleasure.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It's an honor to be with you.

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<v SPEAKER_02>You know, when I read your story and uh Beyond the Veil is your book.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And uh look, I I immediately thought this is a story that needs to be told more.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I think you should be on um major networks telling this story because you did something that most people don't do, and that is chose joy instead of as my wife says, You can, you know, you can be bitter or you can choose to become better.

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<v SPEAKER_02>You did that.

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<v SPEAKER_02>But I want to hear how you did it because they need to hear how you did it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So Wow, how?

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<v SPEAKER_00>One breath at a time, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Uh sometimes.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was in a horrible automobile accident, and it uh it crushed both my legs.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My left leg was amputated above the knee, and so you lost the left leg, broke my back, ripped out my right arm, the seatbelt cut through and ruptured on my insides, my rib cage was damaged, my lungs were collapsed.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But the most devastating, as you mentioned, was uh my my wife and youngest son were killed instantly in the accident.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I I was aware of that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was there, I was pinned either to the seat or the floorboard.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I I couldn't tell.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was fighting to stay conscious.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The first thing I heard was my seven-year-old, my oldest son, crying hysterically in the back seat.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So, how many were in the car?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Four.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Okay.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So you and your wife were in the front.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, me and my wife in the front, and then my oldest son, who was seven years old at the time, was right behind me in the passenger seat.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then our youngest son, it was only 14 months old, Griffin, was in a car seat behind my wife.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And Griffin and Tamra were both sound asleep.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, Tamara had reclined her seat back and was sound asleep.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Griffin also was in his car seat sound asleep.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I I knew that because I had an interesting experience leading up to this whole thing.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I'm driving down the road.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, it's a five-hour drive to get home.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was it was uh Where were you?

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<v SPEAKER_00>We were down in uh St.

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<v SPEAKER_00>George area, driving back to northern Utah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was a Monday morning, it was the Monday after Easter Sunday, and I'm just hustling, thinking about all the stuff I gotta do.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I glanced in the rearview mirror, you know, just to look at traffic, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>But in that glance, just a moment, it's almost like time stood still.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I hear people say that all the time.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it was.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was it's a it's a moment, you know, but I glanced, and in that moment, Griffin, my youngest son, caught my eye.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And he was sound asleep in his car seat, and I just I just thought, wow, this was our miracle boy.

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<v SPEAKER_00>We didn't know if we'd have another child, and there he was, and and I noticed details.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I noticed how long his eyelashes were, and I thought, what a beautiful, what a beautiful kid.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then I heard Spencer playing behind me, and he had action figures, and you know, the car was filled with all the sounds of a joyous little boy playing, and then I glanced at my wife, who had also reclined her seat back and was sound asleep, but she was still holding on to my hand.

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<v SPEAKER_02>So your brain took all this in in a moment's time.

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<v SPEAKER_03>In a moment, in the second Kleenex already.

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<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah, should have prepared better.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Someone will bring one.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, it's all good.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um but yeah, that was a moment, and you know, of course, my attention went back on the road, but there was this absolute gratitude.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's like, wow, how you know, what did I do to deserve this?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um and it was an hour or so after that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And it's a difficult story to tell because that there were reports of heavy crosswinds, and I remember it being very, very windy.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There was reports of a red pickup truck driving erratically, you know, on the interstate.

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<v SPEAKER_00>When you say reports, this was the same day.

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<v SPEAKER_00>This was back, you know, this was back during Yeah, so at that time you didn't have that report.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't have the fact because I was obviously unconscious.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But people were wondering what happened.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So my older brother was in law enforcement, my younger brother's an attorney, they were like, what happened?

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<v SPEAKER_00>So there was these things.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There was the crosswinds, there was the report of the pickup truck.

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<v SPEAKER_00>However, what I believe happened, and I remember this, um I think I just nodded off just just for a second.

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<v SPEAKER_02>We've all done it, right?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, well, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, you know, I've I've been really tired at the wheel and being like, oh gosh, it's like I gotta pull over, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and I I, you know, had I had that thought, I would have done so, but and and there's no excuse for it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>We we've all done it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I have, I'd done it before, but you know, I mean, I was a young father, you're working those 12, 14, 16 hour days, you know, making ends meet, providing, protecting, all those things.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But I believe I just dozed off, and in doing so, I swerved to the right and then I over-corrected to the left, and the cruise control was at 75 miles an hour, and I lost control of the car.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then it began to roll.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And it rolled down the road, not off the road.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It didn't roll off to the side, it rolled down the concrete, propelled at 75 miles an hour, and it was a horrific accident.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I was aware, oh no, we're crashing, and I I blacked out for the actual rolling.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But when the car came to a stop, is when I was aware I I heard Spencer crying.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I thought I got to get to my boy, but I I couldn't move.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I'm pinned and I'm fighting to stay conscious, and I knew there was pain, but the adrenaline was so much uh the injuries were extensive, but in my hearing him crying, and I was really unaware, I just knew I couldn't move.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um, that's when I realized nobody else was crying.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And um and I don't talk about that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I I knew, I saw, I was aware, even though I couldn't really move, I I knew that Tamara and Griffin were were gone.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um I I knew that they were not there, and then and and I I don't show that to be morbid or graphic, but that that was the setting.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That's the story.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then and then I lose consciousness, so to speak.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean everything went dark, but then I actually felt light come.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, and you ask, how do you how did you do it?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Well, this was the beginning of that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I felt light come.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was like tangible light surrounding me, comforting me.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Uh I felt as if I was rising above the accident scene.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And suddenly I could breathe.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Suddenly the pain was gone.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was a little bit confused, like, what is going on here?

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then in this this light, like a it felt like a bubble of light, like a holding tank.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Suddenly my wife, who I knew was deceased at the scene, she's there with me, and she's very much alive.

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<v SPEAKER_00>She's she's gorgeous.

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<v SPEAKER_00>She's not displaying any of the injuries that I witnessed in the accident.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And and yet she's emphatic.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You can't stay.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You gotta go.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You gotta go back, you've gotta go.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And we we we had a conversation.

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<v SPEAKER_00>If I stayed with her, Spencer would be orphaned, our little seven-year-old.

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<v SPEAKER_00>For whatever reason, she could not come.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But she was emphatic that I go, you've got to go back.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And it was emotional.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was it was much like a conversation you would have here and now.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, there were tears.

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<v SPEAKER_00>She's like, look, you gotta go back, you can't stay.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And we we made a choice.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That was the first big choice.

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<v SPEAKER_02>It was a conversation.

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<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, so like, did you ask questions?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Like, can you remember what you talked about or asked, or how the conversation went?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Well, I knew that my seven-year-old was going to be okay.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That that was made clear.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The conversation was brief, and yet it felt like an eternity when she's like, You gotta go, you gotta go.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Where are you?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Where are we?

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<v SPEAKER_02>What happened?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Did you none of that?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Not really.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I I was just it was just like, wow, but but it was very um, it felt physical.

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<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah, they say it feels like decisions were being made in the moment.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it was very visceral.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, and and yet she's crying, and I can taste her tears.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's like the senses were multiplied, but it was very, very focused, like you gotta go back.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You can't stay.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Did you you know how people say they were drawn?

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<v SPEAKER_02>Did you want to go where she was going?

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<v SPEAKER_02>I did.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I did, however, I mean that that was a big choice.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Here I am looking at the woman I I love more than life, and I knew I had a little boy in the backseat of that car that was gonna be okay, but orphaned.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And uh yeah, we made a choice, and I chose to come back.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Now, our our thoughts are so powerful.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's not like I had to figure out, well, how do I, you know, how do I when I made that choice, when I made that decision, it was the intention, I'm going back, then you know, I mean, I all of a sudden I I find myself moving about a very busy level one trauma center, an ER hospital.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Okay, so then you didn't come back in the car.

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<v SPEAKER_00>No.

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<v SPEAKER_02>So all of that was between you dying in the car, so to speak.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So to speak, yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And in the trauma center.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And and that could have been 20 minutes?

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<v SPEAKER_00>I I have no I have no concept of time.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I did later find out people arrived at the scene.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Uh-huh.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um, gosh, one happened to be a doctor and and was able to These are people that pulled over.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They pulled over.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They saw the crash, they pulled over.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I had to be extricated from the car and life flighted to the nearest level one trauma center.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't know any of that.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um I knew that we'd crashed.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I knew half the family had passed.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I knew I'd had this conversation and we had made a choice.

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<v SPEAKER_02>And then boom, I'm I'm wandering through the hospital, and I had an interesting almost So when you said wandering through the hospital, you mean physically, or no, you you haven't entered your body yet?

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<v SPEAKER_02>I haven't entered my body yet, but now you're you're not entered, but you're wandering through this hospital.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and that's what it feels like.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It feels as if I'm moving about the hospital, and I'm not, I'm still not quite sure what's going on.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Kind of, you know.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I have this 360-degree awareness of everything around me, like I the doctors, the nurses, the patients, even the families of the patients.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I I know them perfectly.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Everyone I encounter, it's like I know them.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I know their love, their hate, their motivations, their challenges, their bliss.

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:04.399
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like an instant download.

00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:06.879
<v SPEAKER_02>Maybe you weren't limited by the physical body anymore.

00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:08.159
<v SPEAKER_02>You were now spirit, right?

00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:09.919
<v SPEAKER_02>And so you news things.

00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:10.320
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:17.120
<v SPEAKER_00>I could go down that road, but it's been difficult to explain, but like, you know, like this nurse passes me.

00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:18.720
<v SPEAKER_00>She's completely unaware of me.

00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:27.759
<v SPEAKER_00>But in that instant, I I feel her life as if it was my own, like there was a connection, a oneness.

00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:36.080
<v SPEAKER_00>I I was aware and almost as if I knew the abuse she'd received as a child.

00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:40.879
<v SPEAKER_02>And okay, were you able to find out later that those things were correct?

00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:42.879
<v SPEAKER_02>Meaning that nurse, right?

00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:44.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Did she have abuse as a child?

00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:44.799
<v SPEAKER_02>You don't know.

00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:46.799
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know because this was a passing.

00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:47.919
<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't know, I didn't know who she was.

00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:52.559
<v SPEAKER_02>I didn't know if she came in later after you're in your body, and you're like, oh my gosh, I knew that about you.

00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:54.559
<v SPEAKER_00>No, this was just in passing.

00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.879
<v SPEAKER_00>However, it's like in that same instant, it's it's like, wow, look at the magnificence of her soul.

00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:08.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, all that she's experienced and she's here healing, you know, serving, helping in the hospital.

00:14:08.080 --> 00:14:11.679
<v SPEAKER_00>And and this was true of everything I encountered, every one I encountered.

00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.679
<v SPEAKER_02>And so you did you still have an awareness of the accident at that point?

00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:16.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Or no?

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:16.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, yeah.

00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:17.200
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay, all right.

00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:18.639
<v SPEAKER_02>I I Were you sad?

00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:19.600
<v SPEAKER_02>Did you have emotion?

00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Were you?

00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:21.120
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes, yeah.

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:38.399
<v SPEAKER_00>I did, but it wasn't, it's as if I had been delivered, was being held in a different context, you know, because I'm wandering around and I'm and I say wandering, I'm moving through and I'm encountering all these people and having all these feelings and having this absolute oneness, this connection.

00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:50.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I come to a body that I don't feel anything from, which was odd given the experience I was having, and I stepped closer, and that's when I looked and thought, oh my goodness, that's me.

00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:50.879
<v SPEAKER_01>Oh, wow.

00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:52.320
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it wasn't me.

00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I I was having this profound connected experience, but there was my body.

00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:56.639
<v SPEAKER_00>Wow.

00:14:57.279 --> 00:14:58.559
<v SPEAKER_00>It was so busted up.

00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it was so that there was this profound revenue.

00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.120
<v SPEAKER_00>It was like there was this profound reverence and sadness.

00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:08.720
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm like, wow, I took it for granted.

00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.519
<v SPEAKER_02>Now, were you pronounced dead at any point?

00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:15.200
<v SPEAKER_02>Did they say you died at any point, or were they say you were coma state?

00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:15.919
<v SPEAKER_02>Or what state?

00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I don't believe I was pronounced dead.

00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay.

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:21.600
<v SPEAKER_00>Um I was certainly unconscious.

00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.399
<v SPEAKER_00>My body was motionless, it was a mess.

00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:39.120
<v SPEAKER_00>And there's an interesting, there's an interesting twist to my experience, which is unique, maybe, because there was a doctor, in fact, the attending physician at the level one or the level one trauma center, and another nurse in the operating arena.

00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:42.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Um they shared, in fact, Dr.

00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:45.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Jeff O'Driscoll has written a book about it.

00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:53.759
<v SPEAKER_00>They came into the operating room and they both say they saw my wife's spirit in the operating room.

00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:55.200
<v SPEAKER_00>And he wrote a book about this.

00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Uh Jeff O'Driscoll did, yes.

00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.399
<v SPEAKER_03>Just about your wife or about people in general.

00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:01.600
<v SPEAKER_03>And maybe other experiences.

00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:03.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Other experiences he'd had in the ER.

00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:04.240
<v SPEAKER_01>Wow.

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:05.360
<v SPEAKER_00>But that was unique.

00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:10.080
<v SPEAKER_00>And from my perspective, gosh, here was my body, lifeless, a mess.

00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:12.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And I knew I'd committed to get back in.

00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:16.399
<v SPEAKER_00>And the profound sadness was, wow.

00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:18.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I took it for granted.

00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:23.840
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, there was this reverence that I never, I never, I just, I never even thought about.

00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:26.879
<v SPEAKER_00>I, you know, I don't have to remind my heart to beat.

00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't have to think about my lungs breathing.

00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:40.799
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't have to teach my eyes how to see, or I mean, I'm I'm looking at this miracle machine that's our bodies, and yet mine was devastated, you know.

00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:47.200
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, and I I knew I had agreed to get back with the body and and carry on in life.

00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.840
<v SPEAKER_00>And again, our thoughts are so powerful.

00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:55.039
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, as I made that decision, as I made that choice, I'm getting back in.

00:16:55.440 --> 00:17:03.759
<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't have to figure out how it was just boom, you know, back into the heaviness, the denseness, the grief.

00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:06.319
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, the pain, the trauma, the guilt.

00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:12.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was driving the car, the regret, all of that returned in a profound way.

00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:19.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And that was in contrast to being out of the body when I was aware of it, but it wasn't all of it.

00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.319
<v SPEAKER_00>There was so much more than just that part.

00:17:22.960 --> 00:17:28.880
<v SPEAKER_02>When did that guilt, which all of us would have, right?

00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:32.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Because you fell asleep, I blah blah blah regret, da da da.

00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:34.160
<v SPEAKER_02>Could I have done this?

00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:34.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Right?

00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:35.680
<v SPEAKER_02>When did that start?

00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh gosh, that started at the scene of the accident.

00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.920
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like, oh my gosh, I can I get those three seconds back.

00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:45.200
<v SPEAKER_02>And then you left, and then you came back into your body.

00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:45.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.400
<v SPEAKER_02>I want to hear more about when you came back into your body.

00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:49.279
<v SPEAKER_02>What was the first thought?

00:17:49.359 --> 00:17:50.480
<v SPEAKER_02>What is the first thing you felt?

00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:51.039
<v SPEAKER_02>What is it?

00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:54.720
<v SPEAKER_02>And then when is that first thing of like the guilt that laid heavy on you?

00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:55.359
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:56.799
<v SPEAKER_00>It was immediate.

00:17:57.039 --> 00:17:59.119
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like, oh my gosh, this is real.

00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:00.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Did you want to die when you finish?

00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:01.200
<v SPEAKER_02>Yes, I did.

00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:02.000
<v SPEAKER_02>I would have felt.

00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:02.799
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes, I did.

00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:06.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And and yet I'd given my word, I'd said, I'll go back and raise our son.

00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:14.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, there were times in the hospital, which you know, and as I was in, I mean, I was in the hospital for six months.

00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I had 18 surgeries in total putting me back together.

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:23.839
<v SPEAKER_00>I was in ICU for I don't know how many weeks, and I would get out, then I'd go back into ICU.

00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:27.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I had horrible infections with the corpse, yeah.

00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:31.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I I would throw pulmonary emboli, the blood clots that lodge in your yell in your lungs.

00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:36.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I really shouldn't have made it, but there was God had a plan.

00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.000
<v SPEAKER_00>There was a different plan.

00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:53.440
<v SPEAKER_02>But um I just have to keep going back to, you know, when you first came into your body, you know, the guilt you felt, the feeling of wanting to wish that you would have died.

00:18:53.680 --> 00:18:55.279
<v SPEAKER_02>You just went through this.

00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:56.559
<v SPEAKER_02>Did you see the light?

00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:01.599
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, you know how people say they saw the light, they saw you know how people describe a post-death experience.

00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:03.200
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, I heard it.

00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:03.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, yeah.

00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:07.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Like how how accurate was that compared to what you experienced, if any?

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:10.720
<v SPEAKER_00>What my experience was was wow, I was in the light.

00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.720
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it was it like it came to me.

00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:13.920
<v SPEAKER_02>Did you see Jesus?

00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:19.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Did you see Well, I had an interesting experience at the end of my hospital stay.

00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:21.279
<v SPEAKER_00>And and I I think it's worth pointing out that.

00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:22.319
<v SPEAKER_03>Six months later?

00:19:22.480 --> 00:19:22.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:31.359
<v SPEAKER_00>The two the two most profound experiences were at the scene of the accident, you know, before the morphine and all the narcotics had been administered.

00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:41.200
<v SPEAKER_00>And then at the end of my hospital stay, when I was out of ICU, I was out of surgical recovery, I was out of regular hospital, I was actually in the rehabilitation wing.

00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.119
<v SPEAKER_00>And this is probably the key to choice.

00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:55.119
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh I mean, I I was still a mess, you know, the left leg's lopped off, the right leg's in a brace, you know, held this arm's in a brace.

00:19:55.200 --> 00:20:01.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I I had my one working left hand, and they had had to put a colostomy system in for the ruptured intestines.

00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:06.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And I was still very sick, but I was I was gonna be going home.

00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:08.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I was in the rehab wing.

00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:19.759
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I I had laid so long on my back, I'd rubbed all the, I was healing, I'd laid so long on my back, I'd rubbed all the hair off the back of my head, and my brothers were giving me a bad time about that.

00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:25.119
<v SPEAKER_00>But I was finally able to lay on my side, which was was the way I naturally slept.

00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:34.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And it was in this instant that I'm laying on my side and I'm sound asleep, but suddenly I'm aware and conscious that I'm sleeping peacefully.

00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:40.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And it's like, wow, I've slept, and I've certainly been unconscious, but I'm sleeping peacefully.

00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:43.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I felt that light come again.

00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.680
<v SPEAKER_00>The same light as at the accident, and it feels as if I'm rising above the hospital bed.

00:20:51.200 --> 00:21:01.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And this time the light it it disperses, it goes away, and I'm in the most beautiful place.

00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, people say heaven, you know, the spirit world, the other side.

00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:12.720
<v SPEAKER_00>There's these words that we have, but the only word that even comes close to what I was experiencing is I was home.

00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:14.160
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like I'm home.

00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:16.160
<v SPEAKER_00>I and I'm and I was whole.

00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:24.319
<v SPEAKER_00>I had both legs and both feet, and it was such a physical experience.

00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:27.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Like I could feel the energy of the ground beneath my feet.

00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:32.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I could feel the intelligence in my toes and my calves as I began to run.

00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:35.680
<v SPEAKER_00>I thought I'm running, I'm home, and I'm whole.

00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:39.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And at this point, I thought, gosh, have I passed?

00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:39.519
<v SPEAKER_00>You know.

00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:43.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And that's when the message came well, you're not here to stay.

00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:50.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And at that point, there was like this corridor off to my left, and I knew intuitively I'm to go that way.

00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And so I began to make my way down the corridor.

00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'd been in such miserable grief.

00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:03.119
<v SPEAKER_00>And as I made My way down the corridor, there's this crib at the end of the corridor.

00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:08.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And Griffin, my youngest son, was still sleeping in a crib at the time of the accident.

00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.119
<v SPEAKER_00>He was 14 months old.

00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:13.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, he was sneaking out of it, and you know, mischief at night.

00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:16.240
<v SPEAKER_00>But this crib intrigued me, so I raced to the crib.

00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:24.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And when I looked in it, there was my little boy, and he was sleeping as beautifully as when I'd glanced in the rearview mirror.

00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And again, I noticed the details.

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:30.160
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm like, wow, look at his fingernails and look how long his eyelashes are.

00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:34.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And I I mean, as a father, I just swept him up in my arms and held him.

00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:38.160
<v SPEAKER_00>And it felt so physical.

00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:45.759
<v SPEAKER_00>I I if you've ever picked up a sleeping child, there's a weight and there's a heat, and I'm like, wow, I'm experiencing this.

00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And I held him against me, and he was solid.

00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:50.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And I could feel his rib cage breathing.

00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:52.079
<v SPEAKER_00>I could feel his breath on my neck.

00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.319
<v SPEAKER_00>I even I I leaned over and I I smelled his hair.

00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.759
<v SPEAKER_00>And um I thought, this is my boy.

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm really holding my boy.

00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:12.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And as I held him, this intense presence was behind me, this overwhelming, um powerful, cosmic presence.

00:23:12.880 --> 00:23:14.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And it was coming closer and closer.

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:20.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm holding my son and I'm weeping, thinking, wow, do I really get to hold him one more time and say goodbye?

00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:32.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm holding him, and the presence is coming closer and closer, and it's so overwhelming that I say to myself, wow, that's that's God.

00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:57.839
<v SPEAKER_00>And my little boy's here, because I, you know, I I dozed off at the will and overcorrected, and his life was cut short because I screwed up, and you know, the guilt is bubbling up in me, and here's what I believe, you know, what I call God is standing behind me, and I'm like, I'm in uh I'm in I'm in so much trouble.

00:23:58.720 --> 00:24:10.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh I'm I'm holding my son, and this presence is right behind me, and I had the thought, I hope I can be forgiven.

00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:19.839
<v SPEAKER_00>In that thought, and this almost felt physical too, these divine arms just wrapped around and held me and my little boy.

00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:22.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And then there was this down mode.

00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Um in the thought, I hope I can be forgiven.

00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:31.519
<v SPEAKER_00>The first message was there's nothing to forgive, everything's in divine order.

00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And I thought, but how can that be?

00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:34.640
<v SPEAKER_00>How can that be?

00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:39.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And and and then I I did, I began to see my life, you know.

00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm I'm I'm watching my life.

00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:46.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I saw my parents' divorce, I saw the insecurities that created in me.

00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:58.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I saw the person, even as a little boy, that believed I had to get the grade, make the team, get the girl, get the house, get the car, you know, all these things to that were a band-aid to the insecurities of, am I really enough?

00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:08.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, you know, in this poignant guilt moment, and then to have this come flooding in, and there was so much love.

00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:12.480
<v SPEAKER_00>There was no judgment, there was no comparison.

00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:16.240
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, I was looking at my life and I said, Oh, that that was a mistake.

00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:17.920
<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't mean to do that.

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:24.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And of course, I'd been raised in a culture of judgment, and I, you know, I'm like, oh, that was a mistake.

00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:26.319
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, yes.

00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:27.519
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:34.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And it's like I I didn't mean to do that, and this divine being that held me said, but what did you learn?

00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:37.119
<v SPEAKER_00>There was no judgment, there was only love.

00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:38.480
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like, but what did you learn from that?

00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:39.599
<v SPEAKER_00>What did you learn from that?

00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I I saw things and I thought, well, that was wrong.

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:45.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I knew it was wrong, and I did it anyway.

00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:52.160
<v SPEAKER_00>And what was communicated is, well, that's your judgment of it, not ours.

00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:58.640
<v SPEAKER_00>You are as precious and as beloved and as cherished as the little boy you hold.

00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And there I am, like, wow, yes, my son is perfect to me.

00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:13.599
<v SPEAKER_00>He is divine, he is you know, and it was a very personal experience, but I knew that was true of every living thing.

00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:23.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it's like the whole universe was around me, watching this poignant little personal moment, and there was nothing but love.

00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:33.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And the love had no conditions, it was unconditional love, just like I had for the little boy I held, but multiplied and then rippling out to everyone.

00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:38.160
<v SPEAKER_00>And um I learned a lot about choice again.

00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:39.680
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, it was interesting.

00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:48.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I was held by what I call God, and yet God was expanded.

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I was part of that.

00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it was all it was not the man with a white beard.

00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:59.279
<v SPEAKER_00>It was, you know, it's like, wow, God is in me, God is in my child, God is in everything.

00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:08.240
<v SPEAKER_00>And it was communicated to me by this being that it was important that I exercise my will.

00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.759
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, well, wait a minute, it's your will be done.

00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:13.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I've been taught that, you know.

00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:22.160
<v SPEAKER_02>When you say what I call God, I mean like and I I'm saying this out of pure curiosity.

00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:23.839
<v SPEAKER_02>Why, why do you frame it that way?

00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.240
<v SPEAKER_02>Meaning, like, didn't you just know it was God?

00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:27.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I knew it was God.

00:27:27.599 --> 00:27:27.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:28.240
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:28.880
<v SPEAKER_02>So yeah.

00:27:29.200 --> 00:27:32.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I did, and I I I say that in respect for those.

00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:34.400
<v SPEAKER_00>God's a it's a triggering word.

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:48.240
<v SPEAKER_00>If I say, well, God held me, some people, you know, some people, I I I um my intention is to share the experience without you know, without painting it into a corner somehow that yeah, I appreciate that.

00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:55.519
<v SPEAKER_03>I mean you don't want to isolate others because you don't know what you don't know what God will show, how He will show up for each person, right?

00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:57.440
<v SPEAKER_03>Each person's going to have a different experience.

00:27:57.680 --> 00:27:59.839
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and God expanded in that moment.

00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:07.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, when those arms crane came around me, and this was very difficult to say, it's like, wow, I became that.

00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:15.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I I I I was seeing things perhaps in a much higher perspective, maybe even as God sees them.

00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:17.119
<v SPEAKER_02>My brain is going so many directions.

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.799
<v SPEAKER_03>I can I can almost feel it.

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:19.440
<v SPEAKER_03>I know.

00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:22.319
<v SPEAKER_02>She knows me, yeah.

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.440
<v SPEAKER_02>And because I just I'm so curious by nature.

00:28:25.519 --> 00:28:28.799
<v SPEAKER_02>I I just I just I mean, I you can ask me anything.

00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:29.519
<v SPEAKER_02>I know.

00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:30.480
<v SPEAKER_02>I and I love that.

00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:33.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, and I'm trying to think what they would be thinking too, right?

00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:41.759
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like, I it, but this is I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but like I would be thinking, like, why do you think this happened to you?

00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:44.319
<v SPEAKER_02>Meaning, like, a lot of people die.

00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:52.240
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean, I hate to say that, or even have near-death experience, or you know, survive a car accident, you know, probably with their wife and kids, I mean, other people experience.

00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:54.240
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, have you thought, why me?

00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.359
<v SPEAKER_02>Why did why did I have this happen to me?

00:28:57.519 --> 00:28:59.440
<v SPEAKER_02>Why did God communicate this to me, hug me?

00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:00.079
<v SPEAKER_02>You know what I'm saying?

00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.880
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, because I believe there's a purpose in everything, right?

00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:04.160
<v SPEAKER_02>So help me with that.

00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:05.359
<v SPEAKER_00>It's a great question.

00:29:05.519 --> 00:29:09.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And I I we can talk in contrast.

00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:12.079
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was having these type of experiences.

00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:15.359
<v SPEAKER_00>My little boy, who was seven, had nothing.

00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:18.880
<v SPEAKER_00>He didn't have an out-of-body experience, he didn't have a profound dream.

00:29:19.519 --> 00:29:27.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Here I am in the arms of God, being shown the mysteries of the universe, and and I'm told it's important you exercise your will.

00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:29.519
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, wait, it's your will be done.

00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:35.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And what came resounding back is my will is your will.

00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.559
<v SPEAKER_00>That's how much you're loved.

00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:42.400
<v SPEAKER_00>My will is that you have free will, that you get to choose.

00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:48.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And I was told you can be mad at God the rest of your life because this happened and it was allowed to happen.

00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:49.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And well, yeah, yeah.

00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:50.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Why didn't I have a premonition?

00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:51.279
<v SPEAKER_03>Counseling?

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.039
<v SPEAKER_03>Like what what who told you that?

00:29:53.359 --> 00:30:03.519
<v SPEAKER_03>Um who told me, who told you that you how you would behave beyond how you could interpret the situation and be angry or not?

00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, this was in the arms of God at this moment.

00:30:06.400 --> 00:30:09.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, here's God saying you can be mad at me the rest of your life.

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:11.279
<v SPEAKER_03>This was part of your experience.

00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:13.200
<v SPEAKER_00>This is part of the experience.

00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:18.640
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, I was told you can beat yourself up for the rest of your life because you were driving the car.

00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I was told there's a different choice.

00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:35.759
<v SPEAKER_00>You can give your son, you can hand him over and exercise your will, and maybe it won't feel so much like he and your wife were taken.

00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:42.319
<v SPEAKER_00>And um in all that peace and in all that beauty, I kissed my little boy and I handed him back.

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.359
<v SPEAKER_00>And then back to the hospital bed and everything that went on.

00:30:45.440 --> 00:30:48.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And and I didn't speak of these experiences for years.

00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:49.119
<v SPEAKER_02>I was just gonna ask that.

00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, now my son knew Spencer, a little seven-year-old.

00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.680
<v SPEAKER_03>He knew So who let me ask, I want to I I'm curious about him.

00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:01.759
<v SPEAKER_03>Um at seven years of age, and and obviously that's significant trauma.

00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:04.960
<v SPEAKER_03>He didn't lose you, but he lost his mom and his little brother.

00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.519
<v SPEAKER_03>Who took him in and how did they handle that trauma?

00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:11.359
<v SPEAKER_03>And how often did you get to see him?

00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:13.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, um, great question.

00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.839
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, my brain is still there.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:16.880
<v SPEAKER_02>I didn't think about it.

00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:17.680
<v SPEAKER_02>That's a great question.

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:18.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, who did that?

00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:20.720
<v SPEAKER_00>I have two brothers.

00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:21.920
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm stuck in the middle.

00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:24.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I have an older brother and a younger brother.

00:31:24.799 --> 00:31:30.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And um they practically lost their jobs to come and sit with me in the hospital.

00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:33.680
<v SPEAKER_00>And their wives um stepped up.

00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:35.039
<v SPEAKER_03>That's great.

00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it's a story about men, but their wives stepped up.

00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:39.039
<v unknown>Sure.

00:31:39.279 --> 00:31:45.279
<v SPEAKER_00>And my younger brother and his wife took Spencer into their home, and uh, they just took him in like one of their own.

00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And either either brother would have done that.

00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:52.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, my son was close to his cousin Haley, they were the same age.

00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:59.599
<v SPEAKER_00>It made sense as the family discussed it that he went to their house and um he stayed there, and he would see me in the hospital.

00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:04.640
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was in ICU, and gosh, they had to leave the abdominal injuries wide open.

00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.799
<v SPEAKER_00>I was a mess for a long time.

00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:16.240
<v SPEAKER_00>He would come and see me, but I was in the hospital bed under the covers, and we would talk, and and it was interesting going home.

00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And I didn't get to go home to my house.

00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:22.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I went to my younger brother's house, and my brothers had built a ramp and they had an extra room.

00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:29.920
<v SPEAKER_00>They'd put a hospital bed in there because I still I still needed home health, and there was gonna be physical therapy and all the stuff that goes on.

00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:43.839
<v SPEAKER_00>And going home, I'll I'll share this briefly, but my brothers would have to literally pick me up and put me into the electric wheelchair because I couldn't transfer with, you know, all the limbs injured or amputated or whatever.

00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:49.359
<v SPEAKER_00>And we we were heading home, and I was so worried about Spencer, you know, seven years old.

00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:57.200
<v SPEAKER_03>I mean, and he kind of had to pick up where life left off, and you wanted to create some normalcy for him, or they did, I'm sure.

00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:57.759
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, yeah.

00:32:57.839 --> 00:32:57.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:00.799
<v SPEAKER_00>And and he had he lost his mother, he lost his little brother.

00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:01.839
<v SPEAKER_00>He he did lose his father.

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:03.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I was never gonna be the same.

00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:14.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I was the rough and tumble dad, and now here I was in a wheelchair, one leg, you know, one working arm, colostomy bag, and how how injured was he in the accident?

00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:18.960
<v SPEAKER_00>He he was he he broke his wrist and bruised his ribs, but he basically walked away.

00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:20.400
<v SPEAKER_00>They held him for observation.

00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:21.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, that's crazy.

00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.519
<v SPEAKER_00>And you know, so he wasn't nearly as banged up as anyone else was.

00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:32.240
<v SPEAKER_00>And um as we arrived at the house, and I'm so concerned about how he's gonna accept this.

00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.240
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, we were on his turf now.

00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:35.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, so okay.

00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:35.920
<v SPEAKER_03>So what happened?

00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:36.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, exactly.

00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.160
<v SPEAKER_03>But this is the first time you encountered him since he actually had come to the hospital to see me.

00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.720
<v SPEAKER_00>He's seen me in the hospital, but this is the first time he's kind of seen it all.

00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:47.279
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:47.839
<v SPEAKER_01>All right.

00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.960
<v SPEAKER_03>He's seeing how you're going to actually function outside of that hospital bed.

00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:51.680
<v SPEAKER_03>Yes, right.

00:33:51.759 --> 00:33:51.839
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah.

00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:52.880
<v SPEAKER_03>In a different dynamic.

00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:54.640
<v SPEAKER_00>In a different dynamic.

00:33:54.880 --> 00:34:08.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, you know, we pull up and and my brothers get out to lift me out and put me in the wheelchair, and I can see Spencer looking out the window, you know, watching his uncles, you know, these big strong guys lift me and put me in the wheelchair.

00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:13.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm I'm I'm just so concerned, how's he gonna deal with this?

00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:19.519
<v SPEAKER_00>And they get me in the wheelchair, and they're emphatic that I drive it myself and navigate this ramp, you know.

00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:21.280
<v SPEAKER_00>They wanted me to be independent.

00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:27.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And Spencer comes running out of the house and he runs toward me, and then he ran right past me.

00:34:27.840 --> 00:34:31.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, oh, you know, this is gonna be too much.

00:34:32.079 --> 00:34:33.280
<v SPEAKER_00>This is too much.

00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:40.639
<v SPEAKER_00>And I started toward the ramp and I turned to navigate up the ramp, and I thought, I'll just I'll just look and see where he went.

00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:46.800
<v SPEAKER_00>But he actually ran across the street and he started knocking on all the neighbors' doors, and he started shouting, come out, come out.

00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.599
<v SPEAKER_00>My dad made it home, come see my dad.

00:34:49.760 --> 00:35:02.159
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, you know, he made the round and then he ran to me and he did throw himself on my lap, which just about killed me because I still had, yeah, I still had all the sutures, but I and this is the reason I share this.

00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:16.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Here I am in a wheelchair, you know, one leg, all the braces, but I'm holding my surviving son in this realm, and suddenly it was no less divine than holding my son that passed in that other realm.

00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:17.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Like heaven was right here.

00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:28.000
<v SPEAKER_00>There was nowhere to go, there was nothing to become, it was simply to be perfect in that moment and and feel the unconditional love of that my son.

00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:29.920
<v SPEAKER_03>The saying is heaven came to earth.

00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:32.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Heaven came to earth, and and it truly did.

00:35:32.960 --> 00:35:33.679
<v SPEAKER_00>I love that.

00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:39.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Heaven came right here, and I've I've learned that it's it's the little things that are the big things.

00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:43.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, that you know, that's as good as it gets, really.

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:50.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, you know, for for him, he he didn't have an out-of-body experience.

00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.400
<v SPEAKER_00>He didn't have a near-death experience.

00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:56.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I held these things very closely for some time.

00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:00.480
<v SPEAKER_00>I just didn't want to share them, but I certainly shared them with him, you know.

00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:01.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Mama's okay.

00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:06.079
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah, it was important for you to be vulnerable and authentic about it, right?

00:36:06.159 --> 00:36:07.599
<v SPEAKER_03>That's how he probably healed.

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:10.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Did he what was his healing like?

00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:15.440
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, not physically, but his emotional healing like in like what is it like today?

00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.599
<v SPEAKER_02>And because you had those experiences that helped you, yeah, right.

00:36:19.760 --> 00:36:22.480
<v SPEAKER_02>He didn't like so what was his progression like?

00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:24.159
<v SPEAKER_00>It was beautiful, actually.

00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:41.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, he was my he was my best helper and hero going through it, but as he became young adolescent, and you know, he's like, Wow, I he came to me when he was probably, I don't know, he was a young adult, probably 19, 20 years old, and he's like, Dad, I don't get it.

00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:57.039
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, you speak of these experiences and these visitations, and you went to the other realm and you got to say goodbye, and he's like, Dad, I I beat my knuckles bloody on that thing you call God, and I got nothing.

00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.679
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, that door never opened, and and I just wanted to feel my mom.

00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.320
<v SPEAKER_00>And either you're deceived and crazy in some way.

00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:12.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I I get maybe you believe it, or maybe you're making it up.

00:37:12.880 --> 00:37:18.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Or if there's a higher power like you profess, it didn't care about me.

00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:19.679
<v SPEAKER_00>I was seven.

00:37:20.559 --> 00:37:22.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And I bet I mean it just gutted me.

00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:23.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, that's there's gutted me.

00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:27.920
<v SPEAKER_02>This is where my brain was going, by the way.

00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:29.840
<v SPEAKER_02>So you you kind of read my mind okay.

00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:33.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes, so he, I mean how did you respond to that?

00:37:34.320 --> 00:37:36.320
<v SPEAKER_00>I said, Well, I do believe it.

00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:37.920
<v SPEAKER_00>It was so real to me.

00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:44.639
<v SPEAKER_00>And I said, There is love, I experienced it, but I I actually gosh, it drove me to my knees.

00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I went home and I I still pray.

00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:49.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm like, look, God, I'll I'll give it away.

00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:51.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I'll give him take it all away.

00:37:51.440 --> 00:37:55.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I I you give him something to hold on to.

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.800
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, that was an interesting night.

00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:10.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I it a dark night of the soul, if you will, and I don't profess to get answers from God like I did that night, but it came in such an interesting way.

00:38:10.159 --> 00:38:15.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Here I am pouring out my soul, and what came to me is stop judging your son.

00:38:16.000 --> 00:38:22.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, I'm not judging him, I love him, you know, and and it was like, no, you're judging here his experience.

00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:25.679
<v SPEAKER_00>You think that your experience is better than his.

00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:39.760
<v SPEAKER_03>You think that what you got would be better for him than what he's experiencing or enough, or an or enough for him because he's supposed to interpret what you experienced.

00:38:40.719 --> 00:38:41.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes.

00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:48.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And and the beautiful part of that night was it's the message came, don't you know I've got him?

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:50.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I've got him.

00:38:50.880 --> 00:38:55.679
<v SPEAKER_00>And his experience is perfect for the expansion of his soul.

00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:59.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And your experience was perfect for the expansion of your soul.

00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And they don't have to look alike.

00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:06.719
<v SPEAKER_00>You don't there is not, you know, one path to enlightenment.

00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:12.159
<v SPEAKER_03>I don't want to talk about us because this is too rich and it's I think it's really important.

00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:20.320
<v SPEAKER_03>I think anytime you get a chance to tell your story, it's so healing, you know, even though you own it well and can articulate it.

00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:31.360
<v SPEAKER_03>But I think that I believe, because we've had our own stories, that there's things that come out of you as you tell it that are really healthy for your for you beyond what you've already had, right?

00:39:31.519 --> 00:39:32.960
<v SPEAKER_03>In your in terms of that.

00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:40.000
<v SPEAKER_03>But we um inherited two kids at the age of seven that lost their parents tragically to a murder suicide.

00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:45.039
<v SPEAKER_03>So our kids, what you just said though, was so true.

00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:54.559
<v SPEAKER_03>But it took me 10 years of counseling to be okay with what you just said, which is that their experience isn't going to be mine.

00:39:55.039 --> 00:40:09.920
<v SPEAKER_03>And it doesn't have to be understood or interpreted the same way by them or us to have it be exactly as it should be for what God is up to in all of our lives, collectively as well as individually.

00:40:10.639 --> 00:40:18.639
<v SPEAKER_03>And and and that's that alone brings so much judgment by others.

00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:19.119
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah.

00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:30.480
<v SPEAKER_03>And and if you can get beyond that judgment and beyond the fact that trauma is trauma is trauma.

00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:41.840
<v SPEAKER_03>And we all come into this world with different experiences, different um childhood experiences, as well as you know, people around us that sometimes we can control an outcome, sometimes we can't.

00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:43.280
<v SPEAKER_03>Usually as kids, we can't.

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:46.320
<v SPEAKER_03>And what do we do with that and what do we learn from that?

00:40:46.960 --> 00:41:01.360
<v SPEAKER_03>But when something really significant happens that disrupts our entire life, you you really have no other recourse than to choose how you are going to navigate your future.

00:41:01.679 --> 00:41:14.880
<v SPEAKER_03>And you chose obviously you chose based on, you know, I mean, seriously, God gave you what he knew you needed to choose what you chose, right?

00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:16.719
<v SPEAKER_03>You didn't really have a choice, actually.

00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:20.079
<v SPEAKER_03>You know, just in case you didn't know that, that wasn't really a choice.

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.119
<v SPEAKER_03>God gave you a gift, he gifted you.

00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:27.519
<v SPEAKER_03>And because of that, you navigated your life as you have.

00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:35.039
<v SPEAKER_03>And and um, and I can say the same for for us, you know, and we showed up differently in our trauma.

00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:43.280
<v SPEAKER_02>We still do, and it and it affected us very differently, and you know, and the twins we adopted, you know, and our biological children, as you might imagine.

00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.400
<v SPEAKER_02>That said, okay, so that was your take, right, on that.

00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:48.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Right.

00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:50.159
<v SPEAKER_02>But what was his?

00:41:50.320 --> 00:41:55.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Meaning God spoke that to you, but here he is again without any experience.

00:41:55.519 --> 00:41:56.480
<v SPEAKER_03>Sounding frustrated, right?

00:41:56.719 --> 00:41:57.039
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah, yeah.

00:41:57.199 --> 00:41:59.519
<v SPEAKER_02>Which I get every one of his feelings he had, right?

00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:03.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, he was he was frustrated and probably became very agnostic.

00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:06.320
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like I, you know, I'm getting nothing out of that.

00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:08.559
<v SPEAKER_02>But he was questioning God, right?

00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:09.760
<v SPEAKER_00>It's yeah, oh yeah.

00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:17.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And and in that experience, I was told, your job, dad, and it's like, yeah, it does the universe need to beat me over the head with it.

00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:24.559
<v SPEAKER_00>You love him unconditionally and honor his path and honor his experience.

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:29.760
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh gosh, Spencer, um, he's magnificent.

00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.440
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, he he he he worked through this.

00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:33.760
<v SPEAKER_00>He did a lot of how did he work through it?

00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:41.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Wow, he um you know, he he did some, he went to uh something called impact training.

00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, I've heard of it.

00:42:42.639 --> 00:42:44.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah, that was very powerful.

00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:47.519
<v SPEAKER_03>It's it's something a lot of people in Salt Lake City seem to do.

00:42:47.599 --> 00:42:50.239
<v SPEAKER_03>I know it's far beyond, but I've met many people that do it.

00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:52.559
<v SPEAKER_03>It's a self development type.

00:42:52.960 --> 00:42:54.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Self-development, self-awareness.

00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, but he he went on this journey, and you know, gosh, who knows?

00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:05.360
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, there may have been psilocybin and other things involved, but he because you know he was in a rock band and all this stuff was going on.

00:43:05.599 --> 00:43:19.119
<v SPEAKER_00>In the end, at the end of the day, and this is after some time, I mean a few years, he finally came to one time, he came to me at one point and he said, Dad, what if I'm God's hands?

00:43:19.519 --> 00:43:21.519
<v SPEAKER_00>What if I'm what if I'm God's hands?

00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:22.800
<v SPEAKER_00>What if I'm God's light?

00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.039
<v SPEAKER_00>What if, you know, this thing you reach out for?

00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.000
<v SPEAKER_00>What if what if I get to just make it internal here?

00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:31.519
<v SPEAKER_00>And gosh, he got involved in Big Brothers, Big Sisters.

00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.360
<v SPEAKER_00>He was serving, serving, serving.

00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:37.760
<v SPEAKER_00>He, you know, he was doing an after school rock and roll program for kids to come in.

00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'd go to the concerts, you know, they're screaming out Metallica, they're 10.

00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:44.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, it was you know, and I'm like, that's awesome.

00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:47.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And he's like, that's their expression, that's their therapy.

00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:48.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:53.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And he, I mean, he even came to me a couple of years ago and he said, Dad, let's do a book together.

00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:54.800
<v SPEAKER_00>We did a children's book.

00:43:54.960 --> 00:43:55.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh god.

00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:56.239
<v SPEAKER_01>That's great.

00:43:56.480 --> 00:43:59.199
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, because he he and it's not a what's it called?

00:43:59.280 --> 00:43:59.840
<v SPEAKER_00>It's called What's the book?

00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:00.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Where are you?

00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:01.199
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh, right.

00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:03.679
<v SPEAKER_02>I read it on your thing.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:09.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's it's uh but it's it's a beautiful book, and it's it's not a religious book.

00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:14.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, when he was little, people would come and say, Oh, your mama's in a better place, and he'd say, No, she's not.

00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:16.400
<v SPEAKER_00>No, she's not, you know.

00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:19.599
<v SPEAKER_00>There's the best place for her to be would be right here with me.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:20.400
<v SPEAKER_00>Of course.

00:44:20.639 --> 00:44:22.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And so where are you?

00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Is that like in reference to his mother?

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:24.559
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:44:24.719 --> 00:44:24.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:26.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And his little brother for that matter.

00:44:26.719 --> 00:44:27.760
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, there's a little brother, yeah.

00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:35.440
<v SPEAKER_00>There's even I I I look at the book and there's an undercurrent of even the divine.

00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:37.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Where are you, God?

00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.800
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, I I've looked everywhere in this case world where are you?

00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:42.719
<v SPEAKER_02>When I was sick, I said, Where are you?

00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:42.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Right.

00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:45.679
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean at different times we all said, Where are you?

00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:46.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:48.159
<v SPEAKER_02>Because we don't understand God's ways or his timing.

00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:49.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah.

00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:49.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:53.440
<v SPEAKER_00>So it's um, he's he's gosh, he's married.

00:44:53.519 --> 00:44:55.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Ashley, my daughter-in-law, is beautiful.

00:44:55.519 --> 00:45:00.079
<v SPEAKER_00>They just had a baby a year and a half ago, so I'm a grandfather now officially.

00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:04.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh there's so much, there's so much to the story.

00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:17.039
<v SPEAKER_00>But the choice, and you know, and Spencer and his choice, uh, the interesting thing is we both landed in the same place where love is the most powerful force in the universe.

00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:27.920
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't care what belief system or you know path you follow, but if I ask myself, what would love do, then that's the answer.

00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:29.599
<v SPEAKER_00>That's the answer for me.

00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:30.239
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah.

00:45:30.639 --> 00:45:53.440
<v SPEAKER_03>And I think we're all, you know, when we care about outcomes and and ensuring that the trauma serves some type, has some type of value to it, then we're we're going to encourage each other into their path to find what they need to find to have their peace and healing.

00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:56.400
<v SPEAKER_03>And that and that journey isn't the same for everyone.

00:45:56.559 --> 00:46:07.519
<v SPEAKER_03>You know, but at the end of the day, the outcome is going to bring about a value that we can reflect on and say, this sucked, right?

00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:11.360
<v SPEAKER_03>This is, I would never have chosen this for my life.

00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:20.480
<v SPEAKER_03>But I so see why God allowed it and who he is creating me to become as a result of it.

00:46:20.719 --> 00:46:25.360
<v SPEAKER_03>And at the end of the day, we know that there is a life beyond this life.

00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:35.840
<v SPEAKER_03>And the value to what we can connect with emotionally and spiritually has such, it, it's, it's, it's, it's just mind-bending.

00:46:35.920 --> 00:47:15.599
<v SPEAKER_03>You know, it's just, it's really hard to necessarily go into that place, but but there is just, it's just rich when you start really looking at just how, like you said, your son went this route in order to connect to others and and basically serve him, you know, serve whether whether he started off serving his way out of his pain or or not, you know, like I uh you you can look at that different ways, but what he's learning and who he's become and now he has a family and he can have a he can appreciate his life and he can appreciate your your journey within within it as well.

00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:17.840
<v SPEAKER_02>Pain pain to purpose.

00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:21.920
<v SPEAKER_02>What would you say that your pain's obvious, right?

00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:22.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Even for your son.

00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:27.440
<v SPEAKER_02>And I I would love to hear the answer for your if you could answer it for your son as well.

00:47:27.519 --> 00:47:28.239
<v SPEAKER_02>He's not here.

00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:31.039
<v SPEAKER_02>But what would you say your purpose is now?

00:47:31.440 --> 00:47:35.519
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, obviously you've chosen to have joy, right?

00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:37.840
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, you've helped now people chose joy.

00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:41.360
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't maybe that's part of your purpose, but is there more?

00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.519
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, I experienced unconditional love.

00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:46.320
<v SPEAKER_02>You did.

00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:52.239
<v SPEAKER_00>In a in an intense, you know, encounter of the third kind, I suppose.

00:47:52.559 --> 00:48:07.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And if I can allow someone and maybe a few to feel unconditional love, which bolsters self-love, that would be the purpose.

00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And that there is, you know, there's so much to it.

00:48:09.119 --> 00:48:22.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, uh there there's times I'm like, gosh, if I can do something positive out of this crazy mess, um then that's the purpose, you know, to take that tragedy and turn it to triumph somehow with someone.

00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:26.320
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, I I was never gonna talk about it, I was never gonna write a book.

00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:28.239
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, those things all came about.

00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:30.800
<v SPEAKER_03>What happened that that did come about?

00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:36.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, I mean, I I didn't really only my family and closest friends knew about it.

00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:42.480
<v SPEAKER_00>And the doctor that was in the room who encountered my wife's spirit, we he talked to me in the hospital still.

00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.119
<v SPEAKER_01>Wow.

00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:54.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And I thought, okay, I can share with him if he's a doctor, and if I'm crazy, then he can get me to the psych ward and get me the you know the help I need.

00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:59.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Um but that you know, but there was very few that really knew about it.

00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:03.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I had a neighbor and she said, Something happened to you, didn't it?

00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:05.199
<v SPEAKER_02>And how long of a period was it?

00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:09.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, this was probably this is probably eight years, nine years after the accident.

00:49:10.159 --> 00:49:12.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And she said, Something happened to you, didn't it?

00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:16.320
<v SPEAKER_03>And I said, Yes, but I don't talk about because she had known you well before.

00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:16.800
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

00:49:16.960 --> 00:49:17.199
<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:20.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and she said, Well, I'm gonna come over tonight and we're gonna talk about it.

00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:21.599
<v SPEAKER_03>And I love it.

00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:22.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Like, whoa, you know.

00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:23.920
<v SPEAKER_03>Everybody needs one of those in their classes.

00:49:24.480 --> 00:49:28.480
<v SPEAKER_00>We're those friends, and and I threw tears, told her what I had experienced.

00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.760
<v SPEAKER_00>And she said, I want you to talk to this guy at the university.

00:49:31.840 --> 00:49:32.880
<v SPEAKER_00>He studies this stuff.

00:49:32.960 --> 00:49:34.000
<v SPEAKER_00>There's an organization.

00:49:34.079 --> 00:49:38.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I went and talked to him through tears, and he said, Oh, you've got to come talk to our group.

00:49:38.880 --> 00:49:40.719
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm like, Whoa, no, time out.

00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:41.920
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, what group?

00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:43.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I don't talk about this publicly.

00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:46.239
<v SPEAKER_00>And he said, No, we meet in Salt Lake City.

00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:51.440
<v SPEAKER_00>There's people that are in late-stage cancer, they're facing death, there's people who have had loved ones pass.

00:49:51.599 --> 00:49:55.199
<v SPEAKER_00>It may, you know, it may be good for them to hear what you have to say.

00:49:55.360 --> 00:50:04.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And so I went and shared with it, it was the local Ions group, which is I A N D S, the International Association for Near Death Studies.

00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:05.920
<v SPEAKER_01>Oh, wow.

00:50:06.159 --> 00:50:10.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And there was about, I don't know, 80 to 100 people that met in Salt Lake.

00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:11.199
<v SPEAKER_00>And so I shared the story there.

00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:19.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Some of them had, some of them had loved ones pass, some of them had had, you know, they were dying themselves.

00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.360
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, it was for anyone who was interested in the afterlife, really.

00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:30.639
<v SPEAKER_00>But I shared there, and then there was a fellow there that came up and said, You're gonna write a book, and I said, No, I'm not, you know, no, I'm not.

00:50:31.360 --> 00:50:34.800
<v SPEAKER_00>And um they had my contact information.

00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:36.960
<v SPEAKER_00>This was a Friday night, Monday.

00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:38.880
<v SPEAKER_00>There was a book contract in my email.

00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.039
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, wow, I don't know.

00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:42.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I don't know.

00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:47.360
<v SPEAKER_00>And this I went back to the scene of the accident, which I avoided.

00:50:47.519 --> 00:50:51.840
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I'd been by that area, but I went and spent time.

00:50:52.159 --> 00:51:00.239
<v SPEAKER_00>And again, I asked, you know, okay, God, there's a book contract in my email, and I don't want to do this.

00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't want people to think I'm crazy.

00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't want people to think I'm special or that I think I'm special.

00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:08.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And this was probably the biggest barrier.

00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:11.440
<v SPEAKER_00>What if I get a royalty check from this book?

00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:13.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh it's based on the catastrophe.

00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:14.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh god.

00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:17.039
<v SPEAKER_00>It took half my family and I was driving the car.

00:51:17.199 --> 00:51:18.320
<v SPEAKER_00>That that was the big one.

00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:19.760
<v SPEAKER_00>I didn't think about that.

00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:35.920
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh again, and I I answers come, not all the time, but this day, and I can quote, I mean, it was that voice that speaks to your heart, and what it said is, share your experience and others will heal.

00:51:36.239 --> 00:51:40.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And I was like, Oh, well, if it's about others, if it's not about me.

00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:41.679
<v SPEAKER_02>So that became your purpose.

00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:42.960
<v SPEAKER_00>That became the purpose.

00:51:43.039 --> 00:51:46.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and you know, I'm struggling, I don't fancy myself a writer.

00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:48.400
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm struggling to write the book.

00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:55.599
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, I I went ahead and signed the contract, and I'm like, I finally just had to put myself in the mindset, my mom will buy a copy.

00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:56.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Who cares?

00:51:56.320 --> 00:52:00.960
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, I'll just write as if I'm writing to the family and talking about what happened.

00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:06.639
<v SPEAKER_00>But uh gosh, the book released, it hit number three on Amazon in the first 10 days in the category.

00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:07.280
<v SPEAKER_01>Wow.

00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:12.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And all of a sudden there was invites from literally all over the country and all over the world.

00:52:12.559 --> 00:52:21.440
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I was going to London and Amsterdam and you know, Norway, and I'm like, uh, this is crazy, but it was in greater hands than mine.

00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:28.960
<v SPEAKER_00>It was not my, it was not my intention, it was not my plan, it was uh it was a greater plan.

00:52:29.199 --> 00:52:29.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I just have to.

00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:40.159
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't think anyone would uh criticize you for profiting from a book that is telling your story because we heal through telling our stories, as she pointed out earlier, right?

00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:44.079
<v SPEAKER_02>It's you know, that's the first part of healing and uh writing a book.

00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:49.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Um uh the lives that probably already changed, right?

00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:52.000
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, from just people reading your story.

00:52:52.320 --> 00:53:01.360
<v SPEAKER_02>Because when you hear someone else's story that broke through, as you did, and you chose to not become bitter, but to become better, uh lives are gonna change.

00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:02.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's interesting.

00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:08.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, the first letter came in the publisher's letterhead, and I thought, oh, is this that royalty check?

00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:12.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I I opened the letter, and inside was a little three by five card.

00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:14.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm like, Well, what's this?

00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:20.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I had a little hand scratch on it and pencil, you know, and I'm I turned it over and I realized it was jail mail.

00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:25.920
<v SPEAKER_00>It's the cards they give inmates because everything's monitored and wide open.

00:53:27.280 --> 00:53:36.159
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh I turned it back over, and I mean, here was this guy in prison, and he's like, I lost my family too, not to death.

00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:38.000
<v SPEAKER_00>They completely abandoned me.

00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:41.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I did it, I'm guilty, I'm paying my debt to society.

00:53:42.079 --> 00:53:44.559
<v SPEAKER_00>But he said, I know I'm still loved.

00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:45.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Wow.

00:53:45.280 --> 00:53:48.400
<v SPEAKER_00>And your book changed my life, and I'm gonna come out of here.

00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:51.440
<v SPEAKER_00>A much better person than I was when I came in.

00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:54.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And I sat there weeping, thinking, that's the biggest royalty check I'll ever get.

00:53:55.039 --> 00:53:55.280
<v SPEAKER_00>Amen.

00:53:55.440 --> 00:53:55.599
<v SPEAKER_01>Absolutely.

00:53:56.079 --> 00:53:56.880
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, I saved it.

00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:01.440
<v SPEAKER_00>It's in my little box of sacred things, and I thought, that's the guy.

00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:03.599
<v SPEAKER_00>That's the one I wrote the book for.

00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:09.840
<v SPEAKER_00>And there's been many of those, but it was it, it's almost profound how things have lined up.

00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:16.639
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, yeah, I'm I'm you know, people say, wow, what a tragic life.

00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:18.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And yet I'm I'm blessed.

00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:22.239
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, there's you know, I mean, gosh, I know there's something after.

00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:24.480
<v SPEAKER_00>It's not theology, I experienced it.

00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:25.280
<v SPEAKER_01>Right.

00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:30.239
<v SPEAKER_00>If you read a verse that says, God is love, it's like, oh, and how?

00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:34.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I know I've experienced that love in a very real way.

00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And um, and yep, we're all on different paths.

00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:41.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Yep, I've experienced that in my own family.

00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:47.760
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, there's there's just so many things where I say, Wow, um, you can't make this stuff up.

00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:49.760
<v SPEAKER_01>Well, he's sovereign, right?

00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:50.800
<v SPEAKER_01>He is sovereign.

00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:58.320
<v SPEAKER_02>Yes, you think that he's not done yet, meaning, God, of course, I'm talking about.

00:54:58.400 --> 00:54:58.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:55:00.079 --> 00:55:07.280
<v SPEAKER_02>When I look back in my own stories, you know, it's I always look back and go, gosh, he wasn't even close to being done, right?

00:55:07.360 --> 00:55:10.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, you know, even now in my life, he's not even close to being done.

00:55:10.559 --> 00:55:12.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Meaning, using you.

00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:14.159
<v SPEAKER_02>He does things for a reason, right?

00:55:14.239 --> 00:55:19.119
<v SPEAKER_02>And it and it's not about us, it's about his kingdom come, his purposes, his will, right?

00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:21.039
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like, so do you think about that?

00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:24.480
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, you know, where where's he going with this story next?

00:55:25.199 --> 00:55:26.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I I do.

00:55:26.800 --> 00:55:31.519
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, it's it's really funny because I I I am it's a reset.

00:55:31.599 --> 00:55:32.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm starting over.

00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:36.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I, you know, a couple of years ago I finally made my way back to the farm.

00:55:36.800 --> 00:55:39.519
<v SPEAKER_00>I love talking to the horses, they listen really, really well.

00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:51.440
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, and uh I I I've let the country boy come back alive within me, and um and and life has taken some really interesting turns.

00:55:51.599 --> 00:56:00.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Um and uh Yeah, I I don't know if I'm even ready to talk about it, but yeah, there's always something next.

00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:07.679
<v SPEAKER_00>There's always a new rung, there's always a new a new lesson, there's always a new a new journey.

00:56:08.159 --> 00:56:19.920
<v SPEAKER_02>If you had to if you had to answer the question, what would you say that he where he wants to take you next in your thinking?

00:56:20.639 --> 00:56:21.199
<v SPEAKER_02>Wow.

00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:23.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know, but I'm ready.

00:56:23.199 --> 00:56:23.679
<v SPEAKER_00>I'll go.

00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:26.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I'll go because it's it's interesting.

00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:38.480
<v SPEAKER_00>People have said to me, well gosh, did this you know, I mean, I my my my belief system, my faith was turned upside down and inside out with the experience or expanded in ways.

00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:54.639
<v SPEAKER_00>And expansion is probably the best word, but anything I believed or anything I thought or anything that you know was in my consciousness has been transformed from belief to absolute trust.

00:56:54.800 --> 00:57:00.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Um so yeah, whatever's next, I'm ready.

00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:02.480
<v SPEAKER_03>You must be a really good student.

00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:05.519
<v SPEAKER_03>Because they say when the student is ready, the teacher appears.

00:57:05.760 --> 00:57:06.960
<v SPEAKER_03>You've had enough of those.

00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:08.480
<v SPEAKER_00>I might be a really bad student.

00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:11.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Maybe that's why it's been such hard lessons, you know.

00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:14.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Maybe maybe that maybe I'm slow and that's part of the that's part of it too, right?

00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:14.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:18.079
<v SPEAKER_02>So I I don't know if we maybe I missed it.

00:57:18.239 --> 00:57:21.440
<v SPEAKER_02>Um where is your son now in his faith?

00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:26.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, my my son is you say there was a point where he was agnostic, yeah.

00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:26.400
<v SPEAKER_02>Right?

00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:30.000
<v SPEAKER_02>There was a point where he was questioning, probably angry, God, you know, all this stuff.

00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:30.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Where is he now?

00:57:31.440 --> 00:57:33.760
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, I'm not gonna speak for him.

00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:36.719
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, I but but but it's a great question.

00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:39.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I believe he embraces a higher power.

00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:42.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I believe he embraces a life after.

00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:45.760
<v SPEAKER_02>Um but he's not angry.

00:57:46.000 --> 00:57:47.519
<v SPEAKER_00>No, no, no, he's not angry at all.

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Is there a point where you was he angry at you ever?

00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:50.639
<v SPEAKER_02>You think?

00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:51.360
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know.

00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:53.039
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know that he was angry at me.

00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:53.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Okay.

00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:55.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, that was the beauty of it.

00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:58.159
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, I was just gonna say, because that would be so hard, wouldn't you?

00:57:58.480 --> 00:58:07.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, everyone around me, um, even if I even as I was driving the car, I was the one.

00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:09.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Even my wife's family, they forgave.

00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:11.039
<v SPEAKER_02>They never got angry at me.

00:58:11.280 --> 00:58:11.760
<v SPEAKER_00>They forgave.

00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:15.599
<v SPEAKER_02>And that uh And how were you angry at yourself for a period of time?

00:58:15.760 --> 00:58:16.480
<v SPEAKER_02>How long?

00:58:17.199 --> 00:58:20.320
<v SPEAKER_00>Yes, um, even with all I experienced.

00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:26.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I don't want anyone to think I had this horrible accident and then these profound experiences, and I was fine.

00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:26.480
<v SPEAKER_00>No.

00:58:26.639 --> 00:58:27.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah.

00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:28.079
<v SPEAKER_00>No, no, no.

00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:35.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I I grieved as miserably and as as yeah, I I I was and I was angry with myself.

00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:46.719
<v SPEAKER_00>I I think a lot of the holdback, why I wouldn't write a book, why I wouldn't talk about it, because it wasn't until I could forgive myself that then I could finally begin to talk about it.

00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:47.360
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:58:48.239 --> 00:58:48.639
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:58:48.719 --> 00:58:50.800
<v SPEAKER_02>I I that makes a lot of sense.

00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:56.559
<v SPEAKER_02>Now, I mean, um, do you feel in low days, right?

00:58:58.079 --> 00:59:02.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Do you do you get glimpses of like regret, maybe?

00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:06.960
<v SPEAKER_00>Or any, you know, I mean I I I often wonder what would have been.

00:59:07.119 --> 00:59:07.760
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:10.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Um I think that's normal, by the way.

00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:12.239
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm not being critical with that question.

00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:17.039
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, now, you know, gosh, age and injuries are not they're not a good combination.

00:59:17.119 --> 00:59:20.880
<v SPEAKER_00>As I limp about, you know, it's like, oh wow, you know, oh wow.

00:59:21.039 --> 00:59:21.360
<v unknown>Yeah.

00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:26.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Um I I mean, I had an interesting experience, so there's still these glimpses.

00:59:26.639 --> 00:59:27.280
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

00:59:28.000 --> 00:59:31.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And we do have, I mean, I have low days, I have challenging things.

00:59:31.760 --> 00:59:32.800
<v SPEAKER_00>I you we all do.

00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:33.519
<v SPEAKER_00>We all do.

00:59:33.679 --> 00:59:34.320
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah.

00:59:34.800 --> 00:59:51.440
<v SPEAKER_00>But uh, gosh, this was, you know, the local high school came to me, and this was a few years back, but they they wanted me to speak at their you know, graduation ceremony, and it was about motivation, you know, how do you tenacity, how do you take on the world with one leg and worse stage?

00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:53.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Like that's the least of my problems.

00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:54.400
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh my god, I don't feel good.

00:59:54.559 --> 00:59:55.119
<v SPEAKER_02>I can't do this.

00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:56.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Who am I to do this?

00:59:56.239 --> 00:59:56.639
<v SPEAKER_02>Am I right?

00:59:56.800 --> 00:59:59.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, yeah, and and it it's like, yeah, I'll do it, I'll do it.

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:14.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And here's the interesting thing, and it's almost I'm almost embarrassed to admit, I I went down to the high school and I'm just sitting there thinking, and I'm contemplating, gosh, how many years has it been since the accident, you know?

01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:22.800
<v SPEAKER_00>And I started counting up the years, and I'm like, oh my goodness, this would be Griffin's graduating class.

01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:28.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Oh who can make, you know, how did that fall into my lap?

01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:39.760
<v SPEAKER_00>This would have been his teammates and his girlfriends and his buddies and his, you know, and I'm like, wow, and I'm sitting there, and as I'm sitting there, it it's like I've felt him sit right next to me.

01:00:40.639 --> 01:00:44.079
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, kind of like, yep, dad, this would have been a big day for us.

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:44.800
<v SPEAKER_01>Wow.

01:00:45.039 --> 01:00:49.360
<v SPEAKER_00>And yep, those would have been my teammates and my girlfriends and my buddies.

01:00:49.519 --> 01:00:58.719
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh, of course, I, you know, I I cry very easily these days, but there I was weeping, and I thought, I got I gotta get myself together.

01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:00.000
<v SPEAKER_00>We're going on stage here.

01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:03.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Like, how am I gonna hold it together?

01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:20.239
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, of course, they took me backstage and I was gonna have to take the podium, and all those kids started coming out, you know, and I'm I'm looking in the eyes of what would have been his buddies and his girlfriends and his teammates and who knows what.

01:01:20.480 --> 01:01:21.920
<v SPEAKER_00>The guys you'd go to jail with.

01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:23.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know, you know.

01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:24.559
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh yeah, regrets.

01:01:24.639 --> 01:01:26.719
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like wow, wow.

01:01:27.679 --> 01:01:29.599
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, it was a different speech.

01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:32.159
<v SPEAKER_00>It wasn't really about motivation and tenacity.

01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:41.679
<v SPEAKER_00>I I don't recall what I said, but I think it was more about living in the moment and embracing the beauty of having right now.

01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:45.599
<v SPEAKER_02>What made you emotional right there when you said you saw that?

01:01:46.159 --> 01:01:49.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I guess it's still it's still there.

01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:50.880
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, you know, it's still there.

01:01:51.039 --> 01:01:53.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Like, what did I miss out on?

01:01:54.400 --> 01:01:55.519
<v SPEAKER_00>What did we miss out on?

01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:56.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And yet I know he's right there.

01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:57.599
<v SPEAKER_01>Right.

01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:02.719
<v SPEAKER_00>I know he's right there, and I've had dreams and gosh, I call them visions.

01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:07.039
<v SPEAKER_00>They're the the people we love the past, they're never really gone.

01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:10.000
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I am big on the angelic realms.

01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:20.639
<v SPEAKER_00>I think I've got two guardian angels that are absolutely amazing, and they've got my back, and they've got all of our, you know, Spencer, they've they they they might be right here with us today.

01:02:20.719 --> 01:02:21.280
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know.

01:02:21.679 --> 01:02:33.039
<v SPEAKER_03>And they say that grief, you know, comes in stages and it and the the different times that it comes, it serves its purpose to connect you.

01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:41.199
<v SPEAKER_03>And you know, people, and I I mean, I don't wish that type of trauma or experience on anyone, but one thing is true of it.

01:02:41.440 --> 01:03:03.599
<v SPEAKER_03>If you embrace it for, you know, connecting your faith and what God is allowing you to become through it, then you do have an ability to connect with others with a degree of empathy and compassion and a relatability that just it's rich and people need it.

01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:08.639
<v SPEAKER_03>You're you know, you're something I've often said is your pain is never just for you.

01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.719
<v SPEAKER_03>And God uses it to help the uh heal a hurting world.

01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:22.320
<v SPEAKER_03>And if you couldn't connect with people and be relatable to them, because there's always somebody that has a story worse than yours, isn't that hard to believe, but it's true.

01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:27.199
<v SPEAKER_03>And and because of that, you know, people trust you.

01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:36.719
<v SPEAKER_03>They, they, they, they look for your encouragement and and what's possible, you know, in the most horrific of circumstances.

01:03:36.960 --> 01:03:45.360
<v SPEAKER_03>And you've you've really done that, not that you've done it well, but God has worked through you for you to show up like that on his behalf.

01:03:45.760 --> 01:03:47.039
<v SPEAKER_00>It has so little to do with me.

01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:47.840
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm not sure.

01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:48.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

01:03:48.559 --> 01:03:48.800
<v SPEAKER_00>Exactly.

01:03:49.280 --> 01:03:49.760
<v SPEAKER_00>I get that.

01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:50.639
<v SPEAKER_00>And it is true.

01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:52.159
<v SPEAKER_00>We all we all grieve.

01:03:52.400 --> 01:03:53.760
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, we all get our turn.

01:03:53.840 --> 01:04:00.800
<v SPEAKER_00>And in fact, this came out in the book Spencer and I did, the children's book, but the bottom line was grief is love.

01:04:01.280 --> 01:04:05.119
<v SPEAKER_00>In fact, grief might be the greatest manifestation of love.

01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:10.639
<v SPEAKER_00>It's so deep, it's so rich, it's so painful, it's so sometimes so long-lasting.

01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:12.960
<v SPEAKER_00>And if you didn't love you, I haven't gotten over it.

01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:14.079
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, I've gotten used to it.

01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:14.480
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, yeah.

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:15.679
<v SPEAKER_03>Right, right, right.

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:16.159
<v SPEAKER_03>That's right.

01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:17.119
<v SPEAKER_02>That's the way to say it.

01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:18.000
<v SPEAKER_02>That's so true.

01:04:18.239 --> 01:04:25.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Beyond the veil, what would you say the take home message is in that book?

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:28.960
<v SPEAKER_02>And you know, and why should people read that and who should read it?

01:04:29.199 --> 01:04:31.760
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, actually, let's let's check that because it's knowing.

01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:33.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Knowing is the title of the book.

01:04:33.679 --> 01:04:34.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh, okay.

01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:34.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, so that yeah.

01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:36.400
<v SPEAKER_02>Why would I give beyond?

01:04:36.639 --> 01:04:37.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I don't know.

01:04:38.159 --> 01:04:42.000
<v SPEAKER_00>It might, but it probably says choosing joy and something beyond the veil.

01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:43.679
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it says something like that on the tagline.

01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:46.400
<v SPEAKER_03>In your in the tagline, the secondary title.

01:04:46.880 --> 01:04:50.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, but anyway, we can so ask ask me again.

01:04:50.320 --> 01:04:51.440
<v SPEAKER_00>Now I'm now I'm spinning.

01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:54.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, what what would like number one?

01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:55.199
<v SPEAKER_02>Who should read that?

01:04:55.360 --> 01:05:02.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Number two, what's what's kind of the the message that the goal of the book was to bring across?

01:05:02.239 --> 01:05:05.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Because there's so much with this.

01:05:05.440 --> 01:05:05.920
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

01:05:06.079 --> 01:05:15.519
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, knowing who should read it is anybody who misses somebody, anybody who wonders, you know, what's the meaning of life.

01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:18.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And for me, the meaning of life is to learn.

01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:19.199
<v SPEAKER_00>It's to learn.

01:05:19.360 --> 01:05:20.960
<v SPEAKER_00>That's it, that's the bottom line.

01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:23.440
<v SPEAKER_00>And we we learn by experiences.

01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:28.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Um, it's it's just a very personal memoir.

01:05:28.159 --> 01:05:40.800
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, I literally just put my soul out on the pages, and uh, it's my journey, but it it somehow aligns with others' journeys in ways that makes it meaningful.

01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:44.000
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh, Where Are You, the children's book is much the same.

01:05:44.079 --> 01:05:45.760
<v SPEAKER_00>We thought we were doing a children's book.

01:05:46.159 --> 01:05:49.360
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, some guys golf or fish or work on cars.

01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:59.760
<v SPEAKER_00>We did a book together, but um wow, it uh it touches on things in a lot of ways, and I think more adults have bought that book for themselves than children.

01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:01.920
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, than to read it to children.

01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:10.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, so I mean people just struggling with it something that you know just unconceivable happened in their life.

01:06:10.719 --> 01:06:15.599
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh you know, obviously there's a message there, choosing joy.

01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:18.000
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean it's gosh.

01:06:18.159 --> 01:06:20.320
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, I think we all strive for joy, right?

01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:21.760
<v SPEAKER_02>Joy and happiness, right?

01:06:21.920 --> 01:06:29.920
<v SPEAKER_02>But this is a whole nother level when you have that type of potential for regret, anger.

01:06:30.159 --> 01:06:31.280
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, all of it.

01:06:31.360 --> 01:06:37.840
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean, I I'm gonna say I I mean nine out of ten people would not come out of this.

01:06:38.559 --> 01:06:45.519
<v SPEAKER_02>I you know, I mean, meaning they would be left wanting to die, left with regret, anger, all of it.

01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:47.280
<v SPEAKER_02>Why me, feel sorry, pity.

01:06:47.440 --> 01:06:53.360
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, I went through it with my everything I dealt with, with my illness, etc., for a period of time.

01:06:53.440 --> 01:07:01.760
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean what I know the easy answer here when I asked the question, why didn't you end up the nine out of ten?

01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:05.679
<v SPEAKER_02>Is the story, you know, the God experiencing what God loved.

01:07:05.840 --> 01:07:06.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Is there anything else?

01:07:07.039 --> 01:07:13.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, you know, well, I think I had the experience because that's what my soul needed.

01:07:13.760 --> 01:07:15.840
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, Spencer might be the grander soul.

01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:20.079
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, he navigated through it and found love without having the experience.

01:07:20.239 --> 01:07:31.599
<v SPEAKER_00>I, you know, and I I I'll answer with another story, but I this this was I was in Salt Lake one day, I come out of the office, it's a regular day, homeless guy comes up, he wants money, you know, and I'm like, I gotta go.

01:07:31.679 --> 01:07:34.559
<v SPEAKER_00>I'm but that that whisper came.

01:07:35.039 --> 01:07:36.320
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, just look at him.

01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:51.280
<v SPEAKER_00>And I looked in his eyes, and um gosh, something changed, you know, like something shifted, and suddenly I was I saw my brothers, you know, the love they had for me.

01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:54.159
<v SPEAKER_00>And then I saw myself.

01:07:55.039 --> 01:08:06.320
<v SPEAKER_00>Suddenly I'm looking in a mirror and I'm like, had I not had family, had I not had health insurance, I mean, you know, had had so many things I was him.

01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:10.239
<v SPEAKER_00>I'd have been the guy strung out on some corner wondering what happened, right?

01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:11.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:18.239
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh then, as it was no longer me, I I was looking at divinity.

01:08:19.199 --> 01:08:28.640
<v SPEAKER_00>I was looking at, you know, that there's that verse that says Beware of how you treat strangers, for you may be entertaining angels unaware.

01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:32.800
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'm I'm like, wow, this is God.

01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:38.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And I I I threw my arms around this guy in the street, and he threw his arms around me.

01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:45.199
<v SPEAKER_00>It was two grown men weeping in the street, and I almost heard myself say it.

01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:46.159
<v SPEAKER_00>It came out of my mouth.

01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:47.840
<v SPEAKER_00>I said, I know who you are.

01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:51.119
<v SPEAKER_00>And he said back to me, I know that you know.

01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:56.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And I'd have given him everything in my wallet, and suddenly he didn't need or want anything.

01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:57.760
<v SPEAKER_02>You might have been entertaining an angel.

01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:00.720
<v SPEAKER_00>I may have been, but that, but yeah, so these things happen.

01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:01.279
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:09:01.520 --> 01:09:16.640
<v SPEAKER_00>You know, these things happen, and and had I not had the experiences, and again, this is one of those little moments in life where it's like, yeah, I could so easily be him, and yet, wow, he might be he might be grander than anything I know.

01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:20.159
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, I mean, so that you're right, you could have easily been him, right?

01:09:20.239 --> 01:09:24.560
<v SPEAKER_02>It would could have taken you to the street, and most likely that's what would have happened.

01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:32.319
<v SPEAKER_02>So many people are watching this, hurting, angry, bitter from the trauma, you know, in their life, right?

01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:34.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Maybe worse, maybe not so worse, right?

01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:36.479
<v SPEAKER_02>What would you say to them?

01:09:36.640 --> 01:09:41.920
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, you know, meaning like if you had one thing to say, because they're there, they're watching this right now.

01:09:42.239 --> 01:09:43.600
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, what what do you want to say?

01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:44.800
<v SPEAKER_00>I love that.

01:09:44.960 --> 01:09:47.039
<v SPEAKER_00>Um it's a choice.

01:09:47.359 --> 01:09:48.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Keep breathing.

01:09:48.319 --> 01:09:50.000
<v SPEAKER_00>Number one, keep breathing.

01:09:50.319 --> 01:09:58.079
<v SPEAKER_00>And maybe my darkest night of the soul, Spencer was my oldest son, would he have to go upstairs into his room.

01:09:58.159 --> 01:09:59.359
<v SPEAKER_00>We were back in our house.

01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:01.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I was still in a wheelchair.

01:10:02.079 --> 01:10:04.880
<v SPEAKER_00>I couldn't even tuck him in, I couldn't get up the stairs.

01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:11.600
<v SPEAKER_00>And uh as he hugged me, and I watched my little boy go up the stairs by himself, and I crashed.

01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:16.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And when I knew his door was closed, I just I would sleep in a recliner.

01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:17.840
<v SPEAKER_00>I couldn't even go in the bedroom.

01:10:18.000 --> 01:10:21.199
<v SPEAKER_00>My bedroom, our bedroom, had been up on the second level too.

01:10:21.680 --> 01:10:23.760
<v SPEAKER_00>But I threw myself on the ground and I did.

01:10:23.840 --> 01:10:26.560
<v SPEAKER_00>I cried out to God and I just said, What am I gonna do?

01:10:27.199 --> 01:10:28.560
<v SPEAKER_00>And I was angry, you know.

01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:33.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I was like, I'm trying to raise this boy, I can't even walk right now.

01:10:34.399 --> 01:10:37.680
<v SPEAKER_00>And it came in two powerful words, and you've already said it.

01:10:39.359 --> 01:10:41.680
<v SPEAKER_00>The words came, choose joy.

01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:43.840
<v SPEAKER_00>It's a choice.

01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:49.039
<v SPEAKER_00>You can choose pain, you can choose anger, you can choose to be pissed off, you can choose to do whatever.

01:10:49.359 --> 01:10:54.880
<v SPEAKER_00>You can mask it, you can hide it, you can do whatever you choose to do, but choose joy.

01:10:55.199 --> 01:10:58.479
<v SPEAKER_00>So people that are really hurting, really struggling.

01:10:58.800 --> 01:11:04.159
<v SPEAKER_00>I know it sounds horrible when you're in it, but choose joy, choose to see the bright.

01:11:04.800 --> 01:11:07.520
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, I I feel like you couldn't have given a better answer.

01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:15.039
<v SPEAKER_02>And it sounds overly simplistic to say choose joy, there couldn't have been a more truthful answer.

01:11:15.119 --> 01:11:22.239
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, I I talk about when I'm coaching somebody, you know, coaching doctors as I have for years.

01:11:22.479 --> 01:11:24.000
<v SPEAKER_02>I talk about three percenters.

01:11:24.239 --> 01:11:33.840
<v SPEAKER_02>And even when I I speak to people who are trying to get their lives back from a physical illness, when they studied three percenters, these are people who changed the world.

01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:42.399
<v SPEAKER_02>As a matter of fact, the revolution, you know, they three percenters were the people who picked up arms and said, we're gonna die, we're gonna fight to our death, right?

01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:43.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Because we're not going back, right?

01:11:43.760 --> 01:11:44.079
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, right?

01:11:44.399 --> 01:11:44.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Three percenters.

01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:46.880
<v SPEAKER_02>It was only three percent of the population, right?

01:11:46.960 --> 01:11:54.000
<v SPEAKER_02>So looking at people who survived cancer, people who survived something like this, three percenters, right?

01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:56.239
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like, and you know what they found?

01:11:56.479 --> 01:12:04.000
<v SPEAKER_02>They found what made them different is when they interviewed all these people, they all said what you just said.

01:12:04.319 --> 01:12:05.600
<v SPEAKER_02>It was a choice.

01:12:05.840 --> 01:12:07.840
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm not gonna live like this anymore.

01:12:08.000 --> 01:12:09.520
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm not gonna be angry anymore.

01:12:09.600 --> 01:12:11.680
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm not going to, I'm not good.

01:12:12.079 --> 01:12:16.239
<v SPEAKER_02>A choice was made, a decision was made, and then their life.

01:12:16.479 --> 01:12:18.399
<v SPEAKER_02>You said this in the very beginning.

01:12:18.560 --> 01:12:20.000
<v SPEAKER_02>How powerful is the mind?

01:12:20.800 --> 01:12:22.720
<v SPEAKER_02>And so it starts with a choice.

01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:25.279
<v SPEAKER_02>So people watching this, I don't know where they're at.

01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:32.720
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm sure there's people with massive pain, physical, emotional, around horrible traumas, like you know, all of ours, right?

01:12:32.960 --> 01:12:35.279
<v SPEAKER_02>But it was a choice to go from pain to purpose.

01:12:35.359 --> 01:12:37.760
<v SPEAKER_02>And that's the that was that's the answer.

01:12:38.239 --> 01:12:41.039
<v SPEAKER_02>As simple as it sounds, it's a choice.

01:12:41.119 --> 01:12:46.159
<v SPEAKER_02>And I I know when we say that, it's like people are like, Yeah, but you don't understand my.

01:12:48.000 --> 01:12:50.159
<v SPEAKER_02>I I can't imagine anything.

01:12:50.720 --> 01:12:53.279
<v SPEAKER_03>It's so much worse, honestly, for you, right?

01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:55.199
<v SPEAKER_03>Because you didn't have anyone to blame.

01:12:55.359 --> 01:13:01.119
<v SPEAKER_03>No, you know, people in our society are always looking to blame somebody else and say, you know, I'm a victim.

01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:06.560
<v SPEAKER_03>It's, you know, I've I'm a product of my upbringing or I'm a victim of this person or that person.

01:13:07.199 --> 01:13:33.760
<v SPEAKER_03>So, you know, what God allowed you to experience, I believe, was obviously such a gift to your soul, because otherwise you would have had every right to have felt you know, victim, like you're the responsible party in it, but yet he gave you a framework to heal from the gift he gave you to see with not just your eyes, but with your heart.

01:13:34.079 --> 01:13:38.319
<v SPEAKER_03>And now you carry that into the world and give others hope.

01:13:39.359 --> 01:13:40.479
<v SPEAKER_03>And that is so beautiful.

01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:41.359
<v SPEAKER_03>Thank you.

01:13:41.600 --> 01:13:43.279
<v SPEAKER_03>It really is, it really is touching.

01:13:44.159 --> 01:13:46.159
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's uh accountability.

01:13:46.319 --> 01:13:49.199
<v SPEAKER_00>I mean, there I was in the arms of God looking at my life.

01:13:49.439 --> 01:13:52.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, and yet there was no blame and no fault.

01:13:52.800 --> 01:13:52.960
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah.

01:13:53.760 --> 01:13:55.680
<v SPEAKER_00>And if we can take blame and fault out of it.

01:13:57.439 --> 01:13:58.720
<v SPEAKER_00>And yet it took a while.

01:13:58.880 --> 01:14:01.279
<v SPEAKER_00>I still wanted to blame myself.

01:14:01.439 --> 01:14:07.680
<v SPEAKER_00>I still wanted to, you know, be the victim, but but make myself the victim.

01:14:08.239 --> 01:14:14.399
<v SPEAKER_00>And yet when that shifted, you know, when it's like, no, if I'm a victim, I'm just reacting.

01:14:14.479 --> 01:14:18.399
<v SPEAKER_00>But if I choose joy, then I'm then I'm creating, and I'm doing something different.

01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:20.960
<v SPEAKER_02>It is easier to be the victim.

01:14:21.279 --> 01:14:21.840
<v SPEAKER_02>Oh my gosh.

01:14:22.159 --> 01:14:22.720
<v SPEAKER_02>For different reasons.

01:14:22.800 --> 01:14:25.119
<v SPEAKER_02>And I I don't even know what that means with a worse outcome.

01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:27.199
<v SPEAKER_02>But yeah, it is easier.

01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:29.439
<v SPEAKER_02>It's almost easier to be angry, it's almost easier to be the victim.

01:14:29.920 --> 01:14:31.520
<v SPEAKER_03>Because you don't there's no self-responsibility.

01:14:31.680 --> 01:14:31.840
<v SPEAKER_03>Yeah.

01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:34.159
<v SPEAKER_03>And I guess in the alternative, right?

01:14:34.319 --> 01:14:40.000
<v SPEAKER_00>You don't have to do anything, you can just be and we believe it, we believe it's easier, but boy, that that that can be a very painful.

01:14:40.479 --> 01:14:43.760
<v SPEAKER_03>Those are the different that's the difference between humans being and humans doing.

01:14:44.079 --> 01:14:46.000
<v SPEAKER_03>I prefer to be a human doing, right?

01:14:46.239 --> 01:14:47.359
<v SPEAKER_03>As do we all.

01:14:47.600 --> 01:14:47.760
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah.

01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:49.680
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, when we interviewed uh Dr.

01:14:49.760 --> 01:14:59.439
<v SPEAKER_02>Tony Jimenez, again, three decades of helping people with cancer, hearing all the stories, you know, and he said something I thought very profound.

01:14:59.680 --> 01:15:15.520
<v SPEAKER_02>It was um when people make the shift of just acknowledging, you know, their their pain, their problems, their issues, their hurts, that just the acknowledgement oftentimes healed them physically.

01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:16.159
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:17.359
<v SPEAKER_02>So, you know, it's like so.

01:15:17.439 --> 01:15:19.520
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, that shows you get in the power of the mind, right?

01:15:19.920 --> 01:15:27.840
<v SPEAKER_02>You know, when you choose healing, when you choose something, it's like I you know, I don't, I think oftentimes we want the whole answer.

01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:29.520
<v SPEAKER_02>We want to see it from beginning to end.

01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:30.560
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, how am I gonna heal?

01:15:30.640 --> 01:15:31.520
<v SPEAKER_02>How's that gonna happen?

01:15:31.760 --> 01:15:32.239
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't know.

01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:34.720
<v SPEAKER_02>It's it just starts with choice, and you always say it.

01:15:34.880 --> 01:15:36.800
<v SPEAKER_02>My wife has that better than I do.

01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:40.239
<v SPEAKER_00>Well, they yeah, I I it may be him.

01:15:40.319 --> 01:15:45.119
<v SPEAKER_00>I had a friend telling me about a doctor that was a you know specialist in cancer.

01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:51.520
<v SPEAKER_00>And when patients came in, his first question was, How did you give yourself cancer?

01:15:52.399 --> 01:15:54.880
<v SPEAKER_00>And if they couldn't answer that or wouldn't wouldn't address that.

01:15:55.119 --> 01:15:56.560
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, you know why I love that?

01:15:56.800 --> 01:16:01.840
<v SPEAKER_02>Because see, most even doctors would say, You just got cancer because you were unlucky.

01:16:02.239 --> 01:16:05.520
<v SPEAKER_02>Yep, you just got cancer because you're it's in your genes, okay?

01:16:05.600 --> 01:16:07.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Wait, no responsibility.

01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:11.279
<v SPEAKER_02>Cancer is like two percent of cancer is genetic, right?

01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:16.479
<v SPEAKER_02>So yeah, and again, I we we don't say that in a way like, whoops, you did something wrong, right?

01:16:16.640 --> 01:16:18.720
<v SPEAKER_02>But we say it in a way of responsibility.

01:16:18.960 --> 01:16:29.279
<v SPEAKER_02>I unknowingly expose myself to the I unknowingly bad made bad choice, I unknowingly am holding on to anger, I unknow, whatever it is, it's like, but when you take responsibility, now you have to make a choice.

01:16:29.359 --> 01:16:32.399
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, if you don't retake responsibility, you'll never make the choice.

01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:40.319
<v SPEAKER_02>And if choice is the first step to healing, one of the things that Tony pointed out is he said, pain is the first step to your purpose.

01:16:40.399 --> 01:16:42.000
<v SPEAKER_02>It's the beginning, is what he said, right?

01:16:42.079 --> 01:16:45.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Yep, it's the beginning of your life's purpose.

01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:52.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Instead of saying, well, you know, pain is, you know, if we stay in all the regret, anger, dread, blame, we're never going to take the first step.

01:16:53.119 --> 01:16:58.159
<v SPEAKER_03>And people, and he also said that most people all they want is the end of their cancer.

01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:00.960
<v SPEAKER_03>But what are you learning as you go?

01:17:01.199 --> 01:17:04.079
<v SPEAKER_03>Because other otherwise you're going to recreate it, right?

01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:10.159
<v SPEAKER_03>You're it's it's the definition of insanity, you know, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:10.560
<v SPEAKER_03>Right.

01:17:10.720 --> 01:17:13.039
<v SPEAKER_03>You know, you have to change your trajectory.

01:17:13.279 --> 01:17:15.760
<v SPEAKER_02>And he said this, and I can ri totally relate to that.

01:17:15.920 --> 01:17:17.520
<v SPEAKER_02>You start asking yourself a different question.

01:17:17.680 --> 01:17:20.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay, Lord, what what do you have in it for me?

01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:21.039
<v SPEAKER_02>What do you want from it?

01:17:21.119 --> 01:17:22.880
<v SPEAKER_02>What is your purpose for me in it?

01:17:23.039 --> 01:17:27.199
<v SPEAKER_02>And when we reframe the question, I think we get closer to making a choice too.

01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:28.479
<v SPEAKER_00>I I love that.

01:17:28.640 --> 01:17:31.840
<v SPEAKER_00>Even in my experience in those divine arms, I'm like, why?

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:33.119
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah, why?

01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:36.159
<v SPEAKER_00>And and I was, you know, yeah, why would you do this to me?

01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:37.199
<v SPEAKER_00>It's like, oh no.

01:17:38.000 --> 01:17:39.520
<v SPEAKER_00>My child, I didn't do this.

01:17:39.760 --> 01:17:41.359
<v SPEAKER_00>You I did it for you.

01:17:41.439 --> 01:17:41.520
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:43.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, you must have been asking all.

01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:44.880
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, your son was asking those questions.

01:17:44.960 --> 01:17:48.960
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, so I I think sometimes when we ask God the questions, we have guilt.

01:17:49.119 --> 01:17:51.600
<v SPEAKER_02>Like maybe I shouldn't be asking these questions, right?

01:17:51.680 --> 01:17:57.439
<v SPEAKER_03>But no, it's just No, I I think that when we do question God, that opens up intimacy.

01:17:58.399 --> 01:18:07.760
<v SPEAKER_03>And and and that's when we get the opportunity and the privilege of him showing us what he actually created us to become.

01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:11.600
<v SPEAKER_03>And and that is always in alignment with his character.

01:18:11.840 --> 01:18:12.239
<v SPEAKER_03>I love it.

01:18:12.479 --> 01:18:13.920
<v SPEAKER_03>And he wants the world to see that.

01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:17.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, even when I asked the why questions, it was echoed back.

01:18:17.359 --> 01:18:18.880
<v SPEAKER_00>No, the question is what?

01:18:19.119 --> 01:18:19.279
<v SPEAKER_01>Yeah.

01:18:19.439 --> 01:18:20.479
<v SPEAKER_00>What are you gonna do with it?

01:18:20.560 --> 01:18:23.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, what is your soul learning from it?

01:18:23.279 --> 01:18:28.399
<v SPEAKER_00>What is the expansion, not in spite of it, but because of it.

01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:29.600
<v SPEAKER_00>Absolutely, because of it.

01:18:29.920 --> 01:18:33.920
<v SPEAKER_02>Instead of the why, why me, why, why, why, why, ask what, what, what.

01:18:34.000 --> 01:18:35.439
<v SPEAKER_02>And that's basically what Tony was saying.

01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:36.159
<v SPEAKER_02>What?

01:18:36.239 --> 01:18:37.520
<v SPEAKER_02>What do you have in it for me?

01:18:37.680 --> 01:18:38.800
<v SPEAKER_02>What do you want from me?

01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:41.279
<v SPEAKER_02>What you know, what is a better question.

01:18:41.520 --> 01:18:45.279
<v SPEAKER_03>Just like when you were in Zimbabwe and you got a flat tire in the bush.

01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:46.479
<v SPEAKER_03>There's a story there.

01:18:46.960 --> 01:18:47.520
<v SPEAKER_03>There's a story.

01:18:48.239 --> 01:18:50.720
<v SPEAKER_02>I was there with this like this incredible.

01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:53.920
<v SPEAKER_02>Spiritual leader, very lovely man in Zimbabwe.

01:18:54.000 --> 01:18:56.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Like there was Mingabe, who was the evil dictator, literally.

01:18:57.039 --> 01:18:59.359
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, if you know who he was, he was one of the worst, right?

01:18:59.760 --> 01:19:05.039
<v SPEAKER_02>And then this guy was like the spiritual leader of Zimbabwe at that time.

01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:07.119
<v SPEAKER_02>And it was like opposing people, right?

01:19:07.279 --> 01:19:09.119
<v SPEAKER_02>That ever people looked up to him.

01:19:09.359 --> 01:19:10.159
<v SPEAKER_02>And here I am.

01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:12.960
<v SPEAKER_02>We get a flat, second flat, right, on the way out.

01:19:13.199 --> 01:19:17.760
<v SPEAKER_02>And all I saw was like, you know, what why why did this happen?

01:19:17.840 --> 01:19:19.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Why do I why me here?

01:19:19.359 --> 01:19:20.079
<v SPEAKER_02>I had all these things.

01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:22.000
<v SPEAKER_03>How to be at the airport tomorrow.

01:19:22.319 --> 01:19:26.880
<v SPEAKER_02>I have to get to the he's he stepped out and asked a totally different question.

01:19:27.039 --> 01:19:28.079
<v SPEAKER_02>He said, What?

01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.560
<v SPEAKER_02>I wonder what God has for us.

01:19:30.720 --> 01:19:32.319
<v SPEAKER_02>And then I just want to go in the bush.

01:19:32.399 --> 01:19:34.800
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, attack my line, beat myself up.

01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:44.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Because I honestly, I was like, that was a lesson in faith because he it was immediately I saw myself like, okay, you know, I'm still like an infant.

01:19:44.079 --> 01:19:44.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:19:44.399 --> 01:19:46.000
<v SPEAKER_03>You can tell him the story of the story.

01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:51.199
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean, I'll just paraphrase it, but literally 200 yards.

01:19:51.520 --> 01:19:56.399
<v SPEAKER_02>You have to understand, we're eight hours in the bush on a dirt road, okay, where there was nobody.

01:19:56.560 --> 01:19:56.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:19:57.039 --> 01:20:00.319
<v SPEAKER_02>And I remembered seeing these mud huts on the way in, right?

01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:06.880
<v SPEAKER_02>So there it was 200 yards up, and we walk up, and he says, you know, we were like, hello, hello, is anyone here?

01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:12.000
<v SPEAKER_02>And this woman comes out, and she her eyes went saucers when she saw him.

01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:17.199
<v SPEAKER_02>She had just traveled a week to get to the conference that I was speaking at.

01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:18.159
<v SPEAKER_02>He was speaking at.

01:20:18.239 --> 01:20:19.439
<v SPEAKER_02>This was his conference, right?

01:20:19.520 --> 01:20:21.199
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, the amazing conference.

01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:23.119
<v SPEAKER_02>She traveled a week there for a reason.

01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:28.640
<v SPEAKER_02>Anyways, and she was trying to bring her friend who was caught in witchcraft to this conference.

01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:30.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Her friend ends up not going.

01:20:31.520 --> 01:20:33.039
<v SPEAKER_02>So she was very disappointed.

01:20:33.199 --> 01:20:36.079
<v SPEAKER_02>She just got back, which took her another week to get back.

01:20:36.239 --> 01:20:38.000
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay, it wasn't like you get an Uber.

01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:38.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

01:20:38.479 --> 01:20:39.279
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like, no, yeah.

01:20:39.439 --> 01:20:40.239
<v SPEAKER_02>She just got back.

01:20:40.399 --> 01:20:47.600
<v SPEAKER_02>And here, the guy that she took wanted to take her friend to see is now at her front door, if you will.

01:20:47.840 --> 01:20:48.560
<v SPEAKER_02>Imagine that.

01:20:48.640 --> 01:20:48.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

01:20:49.119 --> 01:20:50.640
<v SPEAKER_02>So she's like, What?

01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:51.920
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, you know, pastor.

01:20:52.399 --> 01:20:53.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Eight hours in the bush.

01:20:53.359 --> 01:20:53.520
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:20:53.600 --> 01:20:54.880
<v SPEAKER_02>She's like, Pastor Gatsy.

01:20:55.119 --> 01:20:56.239
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm like, like, she knows.

01:20:56.319 --> 01:20:57.439
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, we're eight hours in the bush.

01:20:57.520 --> 01:20:57.920
<v SPEAKER_02>He knows.

01:20:58.079 --> 01:21:01.039
<v SPEAKER_02>Anyways, fast forward, God had a purpose.

01:21:01.119 --> 01:21:01.439
<v unknown>Yeah.

01:21:01.680 --> 01:21:05.920
<v SPEAKER_02>We she tells her husband to go grab, fix the tire.

01:21:06.000 --> 01:21:06.640
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, where was he?

01:21:06.720 --> 01:21:07.600
<v SPEAKER_02>How's he gonna fix the tire?

01:21:07.680 --> 01:21:08.800
<v SPEAKER_02>They fix it with Tricep.

01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:09.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Long story there.

01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:11.199
<v SPEAKER_02>She goes, wait here.

01:21:11.359 --> 01:21:12.880
<v SPEAKER_02>She goes off, comes back.

01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:16.560
<v SPEAKER_02>I don't even remember, maybe an hour later, and she has that friend with her.

01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:17.119
<v SPEAKER_02>Okay.

01:21:17.279 --> 01:21:19.600
<v SPEAKER_02>We're sitting around the fire as they're there.

01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:21.760
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, this is, I mean, true story.

01:21:22.079 --> 01:21:26.079
<v SPEAKER_02>And you know, God had purpose in it.

01:21:26.159 --> 01:21:26.479
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:29.920
<v SPEAKER_02>She ends up getting delivered right there on the spot from the demons.

01:21:30.079 --> 01:21:31.279
<v SPEAKER_02>It was the most remarkable thing.

01:21:31.439 --> 01:21:32.960
<v SPEAKER_02>Here was the funny part of the story already.

01:21:33.119 --> 01:21:39.039
<v SPEAKER_02>So I'm like, I can't wait to see this because you could tell, like, there was something spiritual here and everything was wrong.

01:21:39.119 --> 01:21:40.159
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, I was like, I was scared.

01:21:40.560 --> 01:21:41.199
<v SPEAKER_02>Everything was wrong.

01:21:41.279 --> 01:21:41.439
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah.

01:21:41.520 --> 01:21:45.359
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, it's like, yeah, like if I wasn't here with him, I'd have been like, uh-oh.

01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:48.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Like, you know, I mean, there's something here that, like, uh-oh.

01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:52.880
<v SPEAKER_02>And and so here I am ready to watch, you know, him deal with this, right?

01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:54.399
<v SPEAKER_02>Because I knew something was going down.

01:21:54.479 --> 01:21:55.680
<v SPEAKER_02>And he says to me, Dr.

01:21:55.840 --> 01:21:57.680
<v SPEAKER_02>Pompa, God's given you the word.

01:21:57.840 --> 01:21:59.760
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm like, I've got nothing, right?

01:21:59.840 --> 01:22:00.479
<v SPEAKER_02>I've got nothing.

01:22:00.560 --> 01:22:04.079
<v SPEAKER_02>I he didn't give me the word, like you should tell me that because I have nothing.

01:22:04.239 --> 01:22:13.359
<v SPEAKER_02>And then he just he just hands me the Bible and I just open it up and I look down and I just started reading, and it was the word, just like that.

01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:16.079
<v SPEAKER_02>Anyways, she was delivered on the spot.

01:22:16.640 --> 01:22:18.800
<v SPEAKER_02>So ask a different question, right?

01:22:19.039 --> 01:22:20.319
<v SPEAKER_02>You can't make that stuff up.

01:22:20.560 --> 01:22:21.119
<v SPEAKER_02>I know, right?

01:22:21.520 --> 01:22:23.279
<v SPEAKER_02>Anyway, that's all to say that, right?

01:22:23.359 --> 01:22:24.960
<v SPEAKER_02>But you know, God had a purpose in it.

01:22:25.119 --> 01:22:26.079
<v SPEAKER_02>So I love that.

01:22:26.239 --> 01:22:31.439
<v SPEAKER_02>Jeffrey, I I just I so appreciate you being so open and what a story.

01:22:32.319 --> 01:22:33.439
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, it's it's an honor.

01:22:33.600 --> 01:22:34.479
<v SPEAKER_00>Truly, it's an honor.

01:22:34.560 --> 01:22:37.359
<v SPEAKER_00>I've enjoyed every moment of it, and thank you.

01:22:37.520 --> 01:22:38.720
<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, thank you sincerely.

01:22:38.960 --> 01:22:42.239
<v SPEAKER_02>Yeah, I it it's just it gives us all hope, right?

01:22:42.319 --> 01:22:45.199
<v SPEAKER_02>I I mean we always say we hear our story, and we have our story.

01:22:45.279 --> 01:22:46.479
<v SPEAKER_02>It's like I nothing compared.

01:22:46.560 --> 01:22:48.640
<v SPEAKER_02>I mean, losing your wife, losing your son.

01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:52.560
<v SPEAKER_02>I there's not many things that could be worse than that.

01:22:52.720 --> 01:22:58.960
<v SPEAKER_02>And you chose not to be angry, you chose not to be, you know, live in regret.

01:22:59.199 --> 01:23:04.640
<v SPEAKER_02>You chose healing, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and you chose joy.

01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:06.800
<v SPEAKER_02>I'm not sure what you're going through.

01:23:06.960 --> 01:23:09.600
<v SPEAKER_02>No doubt you were meant to be here, net meant to hear this.

01:23:09.760 --> 01:23:13.520
<v SPEAKER_02>How many people do you know that need to hear that message, right?

01:23:13.760 --> 01:23:16.720
<v SPEAKER_02>Well, like and share this with others.

01:23:16.800 --> 01:23:18.399
<v SPEAKER_02>Uh, look, it's a choice.

01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:20.960
<v SPEAKER_02>It literally could be that simple.

01:23:21.119 --> 01:23:24.960
<v SPEAKER_02>The pain, the regret, the healing is a choice.

01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:26.159
<v SPEAKER_02>It starts there.

01:23:26.319 --> 01:23:28.239
<v SPEAKER_02>So, Jeffrey, thank you for that lesson.

01:23:28.479 --> 01:23:28.800
<v SPEAKER_02>Thank you.

01:23:28.960 --> 01:23:30.399
<v SPEAKER_02>And uh, thank you all for being here.

01:23:30.560 --> 01:23:31.760
<v SPEAKER_02>Another episode of Dr.

01:23:31.840 --> 01:23:34.560
<v SPEAKER_02>Pompa podcast from pain to purpose.

01:23:34.720 --> 01:23:35.279
<v SPEAKER_02>It's a choice.

01:23:35.359 --> 01:23:36.079
<v SPEAKER_02>You just learned it.