Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep9 - Puppies That Terrorize Adult Dogs

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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Today's question
comes in through the puppy course,

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our With Open Arms
puppy course discussion group on Facebook.

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And here's the question:

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Does anyone have experience

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with a puppy obsessed
with chasing the older dog?

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Labrador puppy, adult German Shepherd.

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The German Shepherd runs away from him

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and has turned and bark / snarled at him,

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but he won't leave her alone
when he sees her.

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Suggestions?

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He's an eight week old 20lb Labrador.

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It's me, my husband and 13 year old son.

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But I'm mostly responsible for the puppy.

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Since my husband works from home,
I physically cannot run.

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Okay, so let me just take
the easiest part of this,

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which is does

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anyone have experience with a pup obsessed
with chasing the older dog?

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And yes, every moment of every hour
of every day that I have a puppy.

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Yes. This is their stock in trade.

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This is what they do.

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They harass the adult dogs.

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So, okay, now

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let's back up

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and deconstruct this a little bit,
because on a surface level,

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she is asking like,
what do I do about this?

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How do I manage this or fix it or stop it?

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But on a deeper level,
and so often is the case

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when people write in with with questions
about specific puppies or dogs,

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you know, she's she's like,
is this puppy normal?

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And like I said, yeah.

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I mean, it's normal.

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I'm not saying that it guarantees
that your puppy

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is not going to have any behavior problems
when they grow up.

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But this in and of itself is just that's
what puppies do.

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Okay.

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So let me put your
your mind to rest on that portion.

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Now, regarding
what you should do about it,

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there's a couple of things.

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And I didn't do follow up questions,
but let me just say, in a situation

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like this, number one,
as we say in Puppy Culture,

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the adult dog always has to have a way

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to get away from the puppy.

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So if they are indoors together,

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which if the puppy's relentless,

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I really don't recommend this,
but if they are indoors together,

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the adult has to have access
to higher surfaces

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that the puppy can't
get on and harass them.

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So at eight weeks my adults can get on
a couch and get away from the puppy.

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So that's how we manage that.

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My suggestion,

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if it's really relentless
and the adult dog seems to be upset,

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which this dog is already telling you,

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they don't like it
because they're growling and snapping,

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I would limit any interaction

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to really big spaces
where the adult dog does

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truly have an option to run away
like a big backyard.

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So that's my number one thing is
you want to set this up for success

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in the sense of giving the adult dog
the option

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to not confront the puppy,
but yet get away from the puppy.

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Now, what's interesting about this
question is that we get a lot of questions

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about adult and puppy interactions,
okay, and introductions.

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People want to know a lot about introductions between adult dogs and puppy dogs and

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the reason

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why I didn't address it in the puppy
course is because you can't

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answer that question in a vacuum.

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You can't answer that question
except in terms of

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who is the adult dog and who is the puppy?

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Is the adult dog a shaper or corrector,
or is the adult dog invested in the puppy?

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Is the adult dog good
with other dogs in general?

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I mean, you know, it's,

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there's not some magic
that you're going to do

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if you have an adult dog
that's just not tolerant of other dogs

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and you're going to introduce a puppy
and it's going to be okay.

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But that's a bigger different topic.

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I'm going to drill down a little bit here.

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Okay.

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As I said, her dog is already told her in

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no uncertain terms, this is bothering me.

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Okay. So a very wise breeder once told me

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you have to protect

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the interests of each of the dogs
in your household,

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because if you protect their interests
and they perceive that you do,

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they will be less likely
to take the law into their own hands

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and squabble it out amongst themselves.

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So absolutely.

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Number one, when I see an adult dog
snarking, growling,

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snapping at a puppy, game over,
puppy goes away.

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We start back from square zero.

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I know I'm not
you know, not everyone agrees.

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Some people think the puppy needs
to, quote, learn a lesson, unquote.

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But to me, no, never. It's it's just not.

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It's information.

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And I'm going to let that adult know
that I have their back.

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Okay? I'm not going to let this go on.

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You don't have to correct that puppy.

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I'm going to take it away. Now,

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depending on who

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your adult dog is, here's some tips.

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I have found that

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most of my adult dogs will,
if I give them a rope toy or a tug toy,

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they will try and engage that puppy
and redirect that puppy.

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So if they have a way of interacting
with the puppy and redirecting the puppy

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into play, just like, whoa, are we saying
that as humans we should do it?

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My adults normally will try that first.

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They will try,

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but not every dog is like that.

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Okay.

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And I have noticed that males

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tend to be more invested
in shaping puppies down than females.

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I mean, the bitches, for whatever reasons,
you know, they're very self-interested

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and the males that they kind of almost,

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you know, get it
that their job in the pack is to,

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you know, sire the puppies
and then they're off duty

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until it's time to play with the puppies
and teach them, you know,

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teach them
how to throw a baseball, so to speak. So

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that's what I've noticed.

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But, you know, it's worth a try.

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Even if you have a bitch, give her a toy
like a rope toy or a tug toy.

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See if she'll play with the puppy,
if she'll try

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and redirect the puppy
and see if the puppy will accept that.

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Now, again, I can't, you know,

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I'm assuming that this is not a resource
guarding adult, right?

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If you have an adult that resource
guards toys, then that's not good.

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If you know, if you give the,

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if you don't know, you're not sure
and you give the bitch a toy

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and then she snarks at the puppy
and guards the toy, well then

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you know that wasn't a good idea.

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You pick the puppy up, you bring the puppy
in and you don't try that anymore.

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But I'm just putting it out there.

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Is that something on the menu
that you can try?

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Is to try and help
and give the adult dog tools

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that if they are a shaper
and they are invested in trying

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to help you with this puppy,
that they can do it.

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And not just be chased relentlessly.

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I'm also going to mention, because it's a
very interesting thing here,

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breed dynamics,

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German Shepherds are fascinating.

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I've seen a lot of video of German
Shepherd mothers with their puppies.

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And, you know, when a dog

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gives another dog a communication,

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putting it out there's half of it.

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How the other dog receives
it is the other half.

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And both of those things are genetically
determined to some extent by the breed.

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So the interactions between German
Shepherd dams and their puppies,

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it's like this delicate dance where

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the German Shepherd will just like turn
and look at the puppy in the puppies

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like, Oh, yes, ma'am.

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Oh, I,
you know, message red. I'll, I'll freeze.

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I won't.

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I mean, little puppies, it's amazing
like how they work together,

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which, you know, makes sense
given their job,

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which is tending and herding,
that they would sort of have a lot of that

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balance and

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communication, just physically
understanding each other's space

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and respecting each other's space
and communicating with each other.

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In this case, the Labrador just may be,

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oh, you want to play, you know,
I mean, I know my dogs are like that.

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Like if an adult ever snarks or growls or,

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you know, pounces on them,
they're like, game on.

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You want to play? Okay.

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You know, it's so it's

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it's an interesting thing.

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But I think in this case,
we're just going to take it

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that the puppies
not reading the message correctly.

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So we're going to we're going to

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if if the adult dog snarking at all,
we're going to remove that puppy.

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Okay.

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So now we're starting

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them from ground zero.

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You got the puppy, you got the adult.

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The only

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time that puppy should be with that adult

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is when you have them
both under operant control.

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So when you go out there,
now I know this woman said she has limited

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mobility, I assume she could call
the German Shepherd to her,

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put that dog in the house, then
pick up the puppy and put the puppy away.

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If things start getting out of control.

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This can't go on. Okay?

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It has to be, the puppy has to be managed.

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Every interaction that that puppy in
that adult have has to be a positive one.

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And if it comes down to the only time
they really can be together

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is when they're on a leash walk together,
or when you and

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your husband
are both in the yard together and

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you know,
your maybe your husband can control

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or even your 13 year
old son can control the puppy

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and you have the adult dog,
then that's what it's got to be.

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So let me just back up for a second
and explain what it looks like

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for the puppy and the adult dog
to be under your operant control.

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Well, it may be that they have to be on
leash and walked, you know, ten feet

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apart for it to work at first
and then only gradually come closer.

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It may be that they can be off leash,
but you can have treats and

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probably the adult dog
is going to not approach the puppy.

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So it's more question of the person
who has the puppy

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working on heeling
clicking and treating with that puppy.

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Whatever
it is, the puppy has to be under control

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so it can't chase the adult dog.

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And I know that it seems like
this is a crazy amount of management

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and in your mind you're like,
this is not what I signed up for, okay?

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I signed up for getting a puppy.

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I have an adult dog.

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They're going to go out in the backyard
and keep each other company.

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But I'm just telling you,
do your future self a favor, okay?

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Because if you let this go on,

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the older dog is going to reach a point
where he feels

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he has no option
but to deliver a harsh correction,

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which is going to damage the relationship

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between those two and potentially

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condemn you to a life of crate

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and rotate, which, trust
me, is not where you want to be.

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So while it seems like a lot of work

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right now, I mean, you're saving yourself

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a lifetime of misery
with these two potentially.

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Now, you know,
sometimes people just let dogs

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work things out and sometimes it's okay.

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Sometimes it's not.

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I will just bring up again
my oft quoted study

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that, it was not my study,
but the study that I quote oft,

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that puppies

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who were either frightened by an adult dog

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or a human being in the first year of life

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were statistically much more likely
to grow up

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to be dog and human aggressive.

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So it's your choice.

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But to me,

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whatever it takes to manage this situation
right now is what you have to do.

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It's a gift to your future self
and happiness.

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Now it's beyond the scope
of this little segment to sort of fast

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forward through the next year of your life
with these two.

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But I'm just going to say this
so you have an idea where this ends up,

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What we hope
and what I have found in my experience is,

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is if the adult dog can feel safe
and protected

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from being harassed by the puppy,
the adult dog is going

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to actually volunteer
a little more to interact with the puppy.

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And it's just sort of a very delicate

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balance
that tips until the puppy has the maturity

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not just to be such a butthead
and chew on the adult

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and harass the adult and chase the adult.

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And the adult has enough interest
to want to jump in and and try and help

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the puppy.

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It's sort of almost like a cultural thing
in your household.

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And this is where I can't really tell you
who your adult dog

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is, But my adult dogs,

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when we have puppies,
especially adolescent puppies,

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that can just be really out of control
and jumping on their heads.

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They will ask to go out
with those puppies.

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They will ask, but they know
that I'm going to watch them.

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And when that puppy gets out of control,
they're going to ask to come back in

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and they can count on me
to be there to let them back in.

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So they're willing to jump in
and just sort of modulate them themselves

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and then they're shaping that puppy down.

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They're teaching the puppy,
Oh, if I'm civilized, I get to be with

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the other dogs.

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And if I'm a savage,
the fun house is closed,

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the adult goes away
and, you know, they do learn,

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but there's just no,

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I would say, shortcut or easy, easy
way out of management

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a lot in the first few months

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that you have these two dogs together.

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If you enjoyed this podcast,
you'll love our puppy course

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00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:15,120
at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,800
If you're looking for help
with training your dog,

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00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,480
pick up a copy of my book, When Pigs Fly

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00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,320
- Training Success with Impossible Dogs.

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00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,600
The secret is it's the best way to train
any dog,

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00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,840
available at puppyculture.com.

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00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,160
Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.