#338 - Sarah Buxton on How Keith Urban Discovered and Recorded Her Song “Stupid Boy” + How Her Divorce Inspired Her New Music + Landing 3 No. 2 Songs Before Landing Her First No. 1 as A Songwriter

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to episode three thirty eight. You're gonna love Sarah Buxton. She is a singer songwriter with multiple number ones and also multiple number two's. We talked about that and how frustrating, still amazing, frustrating in the best way to have two massive songs they go to number two. She just put out an EP called Moon Riser and Rain, like this is such a good song. Here you go. She's written songs for F G Al, Chris Lane, Keith Urban. We'll talk about that. From Kansas and you know, classic small town America story traveled with the band. She was nominated for a Big Artist Awards up against a major star and I mean major, like a plus list star in one of these It's it's good and you're just gonna like her and her attitude and you know it brings a great perspective and I've just been a fan for a long time. So, without any further ado, you here is Sarah Buxton at So all right, we're here with Sarah Buxton. Which I have a couple of questions I was thinking about before you came over. I'm gonna get to them in a second. Before we get to the traditional type you know, get to know your stuff. But I think the last time that I saw you was maybe you were in with Dustin Lynch early in the morning. I just remember early. For me it was it's late for lunch. For you, maybe early, but you have that creative you know. I don't know. You sleep later than I do. Probably I I'm both. I I do the early morning thing, and I also like I like mornings and evenings. I don't like mornings. I if I have five days off, I'm back to sleeping. My natural clock is eleven am to wake up. That's my natural clock. And I and I can go to sleep at two or three in the morning and it just feels great. So that's what my body is supposed to do. I think we all have different clocks. Now. I have to wake up at three thirty four, and I've been doing it since I was twenty two, so for a long time, and I'm still not used to it, and I will never get used to it. It's not what I'm supposed to do. And when I meet somebody was like, I love waking up at four o'clock and having a coffee and exercising. That's like you're speaking Mandarin to me. Totally don't understand it. Well. I think I got into it when I had kids and they started going to school and it was like that rush before school. I was like, how can I do this where I'm not immediately fulfilling a role for someone like first thing in the morning, because that sucks. I want to be a person with my own thoughts, in my own way of being in the world before I become mom. So do you not have to wake up as early anymore? I've been getting up at seven? Okay? I mean I like getting up at five because I go for a super long run and I can like meditate and like you like getting up at five, I do like it, but I'm not doing it. I'm staying up late. I'm hanging with friends. I have like a nightlife now because I've gone through divorce. My life is a little different now. You know you when you came in, you were singing the background vocals for Dustin Lynch, and it just escapes me what song it was. But did you also write this song or did you just sing on it? Because people love you for all different reasons, and it's crazy. They may call you to sing or they you may write right exactly I am calling in more vocal sessions, Like that's something that I specifically said out loud like a month ago, and I've gotten called to sing on like three or four different records this last month. So it's like a God universe thing saying yes, you should be doing that. Um, do you believe that you put it out there therefore it's happening? Did you allow it to be heard by others? And they knew? Like, how do you explain that? Well? I didn't grow up in a religious home, but my grandmother, you know, was men a night and my grandpa was like a preacher's son, and so both of she married an atheist and he just didn't ever like send his kids to church. But lots of like Christian you know values are instilled in my family just because of the way that they were raised. But I really wasn't. My dad was an atheist my whole life until he was like diagnosed with cancer last year, which totally changed everything, and he got way into Ramdas and got into um the soul. You know, how did you feel about that? When he was obviously something traumatic was happening, but he was not the cancer part. But what happened because that he started to have a fundamental change. Well, it's been great for me. They used to drop me off at church, like when I was little, they would like drop me off. He'd be like, does this bother you? They were just like dropping you off. And I was just drawn to it. I've always been drawn to spirituality, so um, so that was zing from me when this happened. Obviously, there was a lot of pain and there was a lot of grief around like my hero the superhero, like getting cancer and like crying to me on the phone and you know, talking about death and all these different things. And but really it transformed my family. It definitely transformed my dad and my relationship with him. Um. Which was amazing because it happened at the very same time as my divorce, so it was almost like this one man was like leaving my life and then the O g like my original man coming coming back in with all this intimate, amazing conversation. And I can't remember why we started talking about that. What was I saying? What I was asking was do you feel like that you put it into or do you feel like you literally just said to people, hey, if something comes open, I think it's both. I put it on Instagram, so you kind of got that. What do you put on Instagram? Though? Like, how do you say that? How do you how do you say that? I took a picture of me with my new rig sitting at my desk, and I said, Hey, call your girl if you want some bucksty sprinkles on your music. Like I look at myself, like I just love collaborating. I mean, it was always hard for me to be an artist, um, because so much of it is about branding, which I really have to work hard to like get in that mindset. Like I really love just collaboration. I love the the making of it so much, and then when it comes time to like package it, I have to try really hard to like stay focused. Um. But um, that's what I love about the way that my career has worked out, is like it's turned out. There's all these different facets of it, and I now I'm releasing my own music again, and I'm not scared of I would. I would welcome anyone that wants to come into my life and help me branded. That's not what I'm good at. But I love putting the music out and I love singing on other people's music, and I love writing songs with people. The best thing about being a songwriter is like you could be in this mode in the morning, in this right and then in the evening go being a totally different zone and you don't have to be so attached to it being anything. I just like the the cornucopia of different collaborations, you know. Speaking to that a friend of mine, Eric Passley, who was just a wonderful writer, he's a great artist, and you did a song with him, and I remember seeing what was the name of that song, Well, we have it right, yeah, but I remember you distinctly singing on here's the clip up right here, yeah, heartbeat higher. Yeah. So and that's what I meant. That's like, I never know how you've been involved in a project, like you will come in and sing with Dustin and then written this song and then you're so I but I think that's probably with you being like me, Like I have a lot of things that I try to do and try to do them well. But that's just the fulfillment for me is to be in a lot of places because I need to be stretched and doing different things that I get bored very easily, so do I. So, Yeah, I like to be pushed, And the best way to get pushed is to really like let someone into the process that has a different process. That's how I look at it. Like the new I'm working on some new music with an acoustic guitar. Well, he plays all kinds of stuff, but he's a guitar player and he approaches things from a different place than I do. And I just love inviting people that I'm like, bring your whole self to this, like push me like beyond my normal boundaries. And it's just that's to me, the best way to learn all the different things that you can do. You know, you have a nightlife, now you have a new et you But we're going to go through a lot of this. But what I want to talk about first is I program a national all weekend show called the Women of Our Country and I played your song reign like this on our Women of Our Country show. And here's a clip of that right here. So it isn't going away this fun. Maybe I can never stay load this, honey. You can keep your hands because it feels solm to know. So you've never gone to change as it duds run down my face, But it isn't gone away. Laugh far. So, with you being such a prolific songwriter, should I assume that you wrote these songs arts so that your voice your your voice and your voice my voice and yeah, both voices. I love that. Yeah, so you're your double voice in these Yeah, exactly with that track. I heard it, And I think we all relate to our own story inside of whatever story you're sharing. Meaning I know the this is your personal story. But I think what is universal is is it always gonna reign like this? We always feel like that at some point and not just some point over and over again. It's a constant battle that we're going through, Like, man, this kind of sucks right now? Is it always gonna suck like this? How do I not have it suck like this? Is it? Me? Is it? I think it's a it's an internal struggle. So when I heard the song, it struck me because I felt, wow, first of all, a great song. It sounds great. He sounds great obviously, But tell me about writing this song and just where you were in your life and even in that room when you sat down to write it. Well, this was right that I wrote this about three weeks after I told my husband that I didn't want to be married anymore. So I had moved into a different room in the house and the kids didn't know at the time. Um, and it just sucked. I mean I never you know, nobody's divorced in my family. This is actually my second divorce. I'll be honest. I was married for like three months when I was twenty one. So I mean it doesn't thank you, Okay, thank you, but technically if you look it up, you know it's in there. But UM, it just was awful and um, you know to me, like when I had no idea that my dad at the time had cancer. And so the story I'm kind of going forward a little past the time that I wrote it. Um, but I've had to really learn how to like feel really hard feelings I am. I tend to like really avoid pain, and UM, I avoid like I've avoided, you know, getting out of this marriage for a really long time because I just didn't want to feel how I thoroughly actually felt underneath, and so kind of going into those things. I've learned how to cry, like really cry like a baby, and I've learned how to Um. I guess they say in that book what non violent communication, They say, like you need like ninety seconds of like pure emotion to like fully process what you're feeling. But um, I've never heard that. Yeah, I don't know that I've ever experienced ninety seconds of pure emotion. I'm like you, I don't. I think I had so much trauma as a kid that I and i've after we finished this half an hour after therapy today, and what we deal with and it's just funny to bring that up is I never get too higher too low, which allows which doesn't allow me to feel the highs because I refuse to feel the lows. Smart, I mean, like much respect because yeah, well I don't I would let myself think high. I don't, Okay, go ahead, I would. I mean I've always been I mean I am a you know, I've been diagnosed. I don't think I have manic depression. I don't think I am bipolar. I've been like diagnosed by people that would like say that I'm not manic depressive. I'm not even depressed. I'm not I don't have bipolar. So so so I just didn't know how to feel my feelings. And I needed to eat a sandwich, and I needed sleep and water. So there was things like at that time, those times in my life. But you know, I'm I'm not in my twenties anymore, and just now I'm now I'm like okay to me like this, And and once I started feeling, I'm like, when is this going to end? Like? Will I keep crying like this? Like? Well, I was this just gonna go on and on? And the answer is no, because you do process the feeling and you do make decisions that and make you start to change your life and you start to make choices and realize this person just constantly makes me feel this way and it's okay, it's not unloving to detach myself from that situation. Um, I'm curious when you write a song like this if because you mentioned and I struggle with that too, feeling you know, ninety seconds feels like an eternity and that's just like a year. I mean wow, When you said that, I was like, I've never heard that before, and it feels like ten minutes whenever you write a song that is. And I'm not gonna stand this song the whole, the whole you know interview here, but this song touched me and that's why I grabbed it. Was like, wait, let me just play it. But I wonder because I struggle with communication, being extremely vulnerable with people and feeling emotion unless there's some sort of i'm gonna call it a facade of a microphone in front of me. If I'm on a stage and I'm doing a motivational talk, I can go into places that I could not if these microphones were not in front of us. Right now, I could never have this conversation with you, and it's you know what, it's a real conversation. But because I have like a my Clark can't glasses here with this microphone, you can't really it feels like, well, I still can't really tell who I am. And I wonder when you write a song like this and you talk about struggling with emotion, already you in that room the same way I do a microphone where it's like this is safe. Yeah, it doesn't matter how deep you go. I can go places here that I can't go other places. So I wrote this with Maddie Diaz and Kate York, who are two of my best friends, and it was coming out of which I had no creative outlet really, but I mean I had like a garden and like that but like, um, I mean like I had some creative outlets, but like in cooking, but there was no in person rights. And I was in Idaho with my family, which I do every summer, and I was just like, I want to make music here this place where I feel so at home in nature, and so I invited them up and we got this cabin and Fisher Creek in Idaho, and and to me, that was the thing, was like we were out in nature. We were like sitting around a fire. Everybody was like barefoot, just in swimsuits, just fat roles, hanging out. Nobody cares like everybody's just hanging hiking, smell, you know, taking naps every but it was just relaxed. And it was on that trip that I actually realized that I needed to get this divorce, Like this is has to happen now, and it was really hard to wrap my mind around it. But we were so at home with each other. I mean, I don't feel I feel so myself with these girls, Like it was so honest and they were just so supportive and that the song just was really intimate the project. And we'll get back to it. It's called Moon Riser, so you can find all all five tracks there. And I'll ask this quickly because I do want to get into kind of the origin story of you in here, and then we come back to this. But why moon riser? Every night? That was like the main event. Like we would have like a rhythm of the day. We'd hike in the morning and then start writing around twelve or so, eleven twelve, we'd write a couple of songs. That afternoon, we would take a quick nap. Everybody would like get up, maybe shower, but we would like start a fire, maybe shower, like start a fire, kind of get dinner, going, eat dinner, and like start writing. And but when the moon would start rising, we'd be like, oh, she's coming up, She's coming up. And just imagine over this ridge with these all these dead trees. They have all these dead trees. I don't know whether actually there's a Japanese beetle that's why they're dead. But like the moon would come up and we would just be like whoa, you know, just like howl at it, and just it was like the moment of our of our night. And we didn't know what these songs were for. We weren't necessarily writing them for an EP for me. We're just like writing. Were they all written in this? Actually there was two trips. There was one in Idaho and then there was another one outside us. It was a signal mountain, same vibe, people, same people, same thing, watching the moon rise, screaming at it, yelling at it. Fire. Nobody, nobody died, nobody got eaten by a wolf. Nothing, nobody got eaten by a victory itself. No one of us came back and decided to get a divorce. But that was all the damage that was done. Growing up in Kansas? And did you grow up in Lawrence or near Lawrence? I grew up in Lawrence. Have you been to Lawrence? I have because I've played a couple of shows in the school. Yeah. Yeah, because of the University of Kansas. It is a cool town. So but Kansas is KU. Yeah yeah, Kentucky is UK. Kansas is k You did you? Are you a Jayhawk fan? Hell? Yeah? Okay? So are you? Do you know that they're about to play in a couple of days. By the time this has heard, they're playing this you know this weekend or the number one seas Oh my gosh, how do you feel about that? I feel really good about it. It's good to know. Well, my my family is always pretty down. At the beginning of the season, everybody's like, oh, they look horrible, you know, and everybody's like so down about it. But then as things go on, I mean, we're really lucky to have Why Lawrence, Kansas, Like why why did your parents have you and have the family in Lawrence Camps. Well, my mother was born there, my grant her parents grew up in Neudora, which is just outside of Lawrence, but they raised their kids in Lawrence. And my dad grew up in Ransom, Kansas in Western Kansas, and he went to KU And so my parents were both at KU student teachings What's in your Blood and they met camping. They went out like camping and they fell in love. Like, oh yeah, it's in my blood. Did you go to school there at all? Or did you just move off and start being creative? Um? I did not go to school there. I came to Belmont, Okay, so you had you moved off to be creative. I mean Belmont is a school where if you're going to do music almost Oh yeah, I mean I understand that because I am a die hard Arkansas Razor bake fan. I'm from Arkansas. That's all we have. We don't have a protein. The Kansas. They the Royals kind of split that with but they would always lose. The Royals only started winning recently, and same with the Chiefs, like it was just not the best and like, hey, you, so you moved to Belmont and I couldn't go to the University of Arkansas because I was already working. I had to chase me and it would hurt me so bad to not go to school there because I had loved and adored but I had to go and chase this dream. So you moved to Nashville and you you you come to Belmont, But why Belmont? Like what did you think you were going to do by going to school in Nashville? Well, I actually wanted to go to Berkeley in Boston and my mom was like, no, it's too close to New York City. And basically I don't trust you. Were you were you a troubled kids? Know? I was like, I was actually most honorable senior and my I don't know why she didn't. I think she was just maybe it wasn't that she didn't trust me. Okay, okay, I'm gonna be completely honest with you right now. Okay. I something happened to me in high school, Like a group of girls really broke my heart. We're good now, we've all made up, but they really broke my heart, and um it changed me. Like that was kind of when I became a songwriter. And like, I don't know how to say this other than it was dark. It really hurt me, like big time, and I questioned everything about my life. Um, I had grown up like I was like such a good kid. I was a people pleaser, like in grade school, and I did go through something like when I was in junior high I had like severe pretty severe anorexia. Um so I've been through some things. But by the time I got into high school, I mean I had like a great time. I was in a cross country, I was in band, I was inquired, and I was like getting good grades and I had the best boyfriend ever, Like he was such a great guy, you know, no trouble there. But then that happened and I was just like okay, everything from the clothes that I was wearing to just my approach to life. I honestly feel like it brought me into my artistry. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but it was a catalyst. And um, in college is when I really started exploring the wilder side of life. And I guess I asked that because maybe your mom was just super protective coming from Kansas. Maybe it was New York City. She was afraid of more than you going to more than me, because me growing up in Arkansas, we were scared of it. That wasn't a real place. That was a place on TV exactly. So you you moved to Nashville, seems safer. Anyway. I wasn't interested in singing country music, and so Berkeley was more appealing to me. And when I first moved to Nashville, I was really interested in like more rock and roll because you did like a southern rock. I had a jam b did you? Was it jams? And you did new new songs, original original songs. Was original songs and no and cover songs. And we were kind of um doing it the way like Widespread Panic had done. It was the that's what I hear. Oh God, it was like I had a gym bay. I had like velvet tide eyed skirts and like a gym bay, and like bills around my ankles, and I mean it was fun. We had so much fun. Traveling group of folks was quite the scene. Oh, it was so much fun. We played frat parties and like old miss and we went to Arkansas. We played in Fayetteville and like it was this southeast. What was the goal with that though? It was to grow and to be part of that of that scene. It was never to have like necessarily like radio songs. It was all about the jam. It was all about the show and like the energy and the connection. But my voice just got tired of screaming and singing that loud over two drum sets. And like you had two drummers, I had two drummers. Yeah, and um, but that's like some Doobie Brothers type stuff. It was Allman Brothers, Dubie Brothers, UM. And we covered Almond Brothers and Dubie Brothers. But um. Then one day in a dressing room here, Eva Cassidy was playing in a UM. Are you in college while this is happening? I was in college. Actually I dropped out. I only went to Beaumont for basically like a year before this story. You went for a year. I just want to know why you went with the intention to study what um just vocal performance and it wasn't and it was very classical, So I wasn't getting very good. It wasn't the country and it was classical. It was classical, and it was very like. They let me in on probation because they could tell I had some rasp in my voice and that they were concerned about. So it was always like, what does that mean? Promation like you're going to jail if you suck, Like we're gonna let you in, but if you don't do well. Right, Maybe it wasn't called probable and the music penitentiary. Yeah wait, maybe it had another name, like we'll see how this goes with her name. Yeah, maybe I don't know. You're you're okay, So let's go back to where you were. So you're you're touring, You're in a room. Who did you run into? So I heard an Eva Cassidy song and she is I don't know, okay, you gotta check her out. She's incredible. She's no longer living. She had I think melanoma and died really young, but she became it was posthumus that she became famous. And she has incredible records. I mean any of you listening should check out. It's e v A Cassidy. I mean, she's incredible and it's just the most pure voice, and she's an angel. She's I don't know else to say it, she's just an angel. And I was just trying on some clothes in addressing room and it just stopped me in my tracks. I'm like, to the to the door, I'm like who is this and they're like, this is Eva Cassidy. So I went home and started listening to her music and I was like, I am quitting this band. I just wanted to hearing that vocal or do you remember what it was? Remember the exact song or the record because it was fields of Gold because you struck so much? Oh yeah, it's called um. It wasn't feel gold. It was a founded picture. It's called um. Time is a healer, like we find that? Please? If I hear this song, then I decided to go into like wrote it management. I'm gonna be mad at mad at you. You may me pivot my my career. Let's listen here the Burden lit banger. It's the chorus that I love pay Do you hear this and you're so struck? Why? What about this spoke to you specifically the clarity in her voice. I was pushing my voice so hard, and I just loved the clarity in her voice and like the simplicity of it. It was more song driven, and my other songs with so Wicko we're jam driven. Still. Wickoka is a pretty good name, though. Yeah, it was like it was a fun thing. You know, you had put out some songs yourself in the music world. Um, I want to play for you in a sense, is from two thousand six, he says, young. That was a top forty song. This is a top thirty song. This is that kind of Dave, It's time to s this is a this is a number in the twenties. This is outside my window two thousand nine. No, no long just a big ring that. She doesn't sound Those were really hard years for me. She doesn't It doesn't sound like I always said back then. I was like, I was like, I feel like I live five ft in front of my body. I was never in my body. I was always like, just like, let's go. Like I kind of had this. I mean, I feel a little vulnerable saying this, but I'm just gonna say anyway, Um, I kind of felt like country music. I looked at like what Keith Urban was doing and like he was a huge expander from me because it was like really good music, like Golden Road obsessed, like it was just good music. And um, I guess I had this feeling like if my music was just good, that I would somehow get to a place where I then could kind of do what I want. I saw people just like I had no idea, like how hard it was to have a hit. I just had no idea. I guess I kind of didn't think it was going to be that challenging, and I was wrong. I think it goes back a bit too too, Like you just I don't realize. I don't know if you realize you said it, but you're like, you know, make good music and then it all happens. But it's not just about making good music. It's also the promotion. It's also the stars aligning. I mean, and I always had this feeling like wherever I would look like, oh my god, they're aligning over there, run you know, to go over where they are aligning, and like, okay, I'll go do that, like rather than just being yourself and like seeing if they align. But that's a more sustainable way. I think to have a career doesn't mean you'll be successful, but at least you'll be fulfilled. I've learned the same lesson that I've tried it a lot of different ways, and that if I continue to try in my most honest way, even if I fail, I really lies that I was at least me when I failed, which is way better than failing when I wasn't exactly me, because then I'm going, man, if I had have just been me, who knows. It's the worst to fail when you're not being completely authentic. It's the worst. It sucks to fail if it's you, but you always but you realize, well, at least this is me, this is my stuff. Yeah yeah, but it really sucks whenever you weren't your exact true self and it bombed and you're like, why did I do that? Right? Do you feel that way with? It's awful? I hate hearing it. I hate it if you tag it. If somebody tags me and they're like, oh my god, like Sarah Bucks, then outside my window and they put like I would never post that on my stories, Like it's such a it was such a hard time. Would you if you were let's say you're playing a show, would you play outside my Window? Never? No? Never again? Okay, well, let me play this is Stupid Boy. This is on your EP first two seven. That's now. I mean, we'll talk about the massive success that song had with Keith Urban, but when you hear that back, that's okay. I was gonna ask that sound the same as the other song, right, and it was treated differently on the record. We cut it with no click track, which is something you would never do if it was going to be a single. So you had a little more freedom to to go your own way, even in very small details. But you weren't right on with how exactly supposed to be right now, I'll say Innocence is a is one that I feel like I was being more authentic to, like that's an actual story and it's like so, but yeah, I'm with you, like Stupid Boy was totally. There's just these songs that are gifts. That's a kind of land and you don't really remember. I mean, I can tell you, like the beginning of how that song was written, but I'm curious because you write it and then you put it on your record, and then did it until Keith Nicole and we'll get to that story and a second until it was discovered and redone like did it reach its peak? It was just a song that you were proud of that existed, and they kind of went away. Um, No, I I felt that it was really special, like when I for me, Like I I felt like it was special for me. And then and then he heard it like I I it was just special to me. I knew. I knew the day that I wrote it. I was like, damn, I love this song. It was like a new a new thing for me. How did he hear it? Well, Betsy uh Cook was her name at the time. Now she has a different last name, and then her name became Betsy mqugh. But um, she was working for Boorman, Keith's manager at the time, and she's my age, really good friend of mine, and we were just meeting. She says that she played it for him on the bus. And then I've heard Dan say that he played it for Keith, So I'm not quite sure. We'd have to ask Keith how we heard it. But I heard that Betsy played it for him on the bus, and it wasn't like do you want to cut this song. It was like, we really want you to meet this girl, because you know, it wasn't even about the song exactly, it was about art. Yeah, and that was the song she picked to play, So it wasn't the ones they were thinking of as singles. It was like just the one that she thought Keith would like. Well, imagine if I had approached everything that way. But and the song probably that she thought best represented you as a person. Yes, here is Keith's Stupid Boy. By the way, Here you go, CM a song of the your nomination at one Keith a Grammy Vocal performance. And you know, all the sudden you have written a massive hit, right And it wasn't all of a sudden. And that's what's funny is you wrote it, you recorded it, you're proud of it, you love it. Then all of a sudden years later you have a massive hit. Right now? Does that change people's perception of you as a songwriter in this town versus the artist? Only? Oh, I was so lucky that that happened for the longevity of like my life and just the way that I'm happy where I'm at right now, and like I'm that I would never be right exactly where I was if that hadn't happened. So, if I'm getting this right, you stayed and the stars aligned over you. Oh, Finny, that's amazing. Look how we just did that. I'm just all I'm doing is observing and that that was the stars doing what they're supposed to do, exactly in the place that you're supposed to be living. I want to play a few more and this this will not be exactly um and you know the order we're telling the story here. But some song because that Sarah's written another Keith Urban song, put you in a song, Here you Go. That's a good one. That's a good one. The vand Perry. This peaked at number two according to this chart. In Here's Don't let Me Be Lonely. By the way, both of those songs peaked at number two. Yeah. Oh, and there was all so put you in a song Stupid Boy, and that was all number two. Stupid Boy was the number two number two. I was talking to Keith Um because Keith and I are friendly. We're more than just acquaintances. But we don't hang. He's gone all the time, but we're friendly enough where we can actually have a good conversation about microphone, Yeah exactly, And so when we do have a microphone, he opens up a little more. I feel because he trust that I'm not going to take him somewhere he doesn't want to go. We were talking about maybe it was take you a kids and take you for you know, yeah, you'll think you'll think of me. Maybe that one, No, it was fly whatever. One of his biggest songs are often the ones that weren't number one, like his career biggest songs the songs that he has known for and Stupid Boys one of them. Yeah, right, weren't number one song. That number one is a chart. Uh, it's a business plan by a record label. But that doesn't mean that these number two songs aren't heavier in people's hearts, right exactly? Number two is that is not funny? Ironic a bit? Well, everybody was like, oh my god, like is it ever going to happen? When I finally got a number one, they were like, oh my god, was it? The f GL song was like your first one Sundays. To be honest, I don't know if it was that one or fixed. I don't know which I can tell you because I have the years. Yeah, it was f G. L here and then two years later, because it doesn't mean you wrote them two years apart, because so you could rid them on the same day. I don't know at the same time. Yeah, here's Chris Lane Fix. You know, one of my favorite songs, and she's just one of my favorite people. And I took her and she opened for me. And one of the great things that I get to do is take an artist that I love because I just want to watch them. And Jillian Jacqueline is that for me, and I just I just love her who she is, her voice, her style, like everything about her, and so I'm a big Jillian Jacqueline fan. Remember we should put out reasons. I was like, this is a good song, and you wrote that I'm gonna play that here here you go. So that is a very small nutshell, but of your body of work as a songwriter over the past few years that people would know from the radio, we got a lot of other stuff. The question that I was gonna ask you it kind of leads into where we are now. I mean I was thinking about it before you came over. And because you're wildly creative, do you ever go in and let's say, just for the sake of this. The name of the song is walking down the Street. Okay, you go in, you say, I want to do the song walking down the street. You guys write the song talk about one day you walk down the street and you ran into an old friend and that old friend dat song over and that song really doesn't nothing really happens with it. Maybe it's not that great, maybe it's cut by the wrong person, if it gets cut at all, and you're like, well, I like that idea, but what we did there with it wasn't right. So when you go into a room and go have the song about walking down the street, yes, another room with other people, your same idea, but collaboration with people that you work in different ways with and then you present it to them and I did that you thought may have worked over here almost still the same idea to other people and then actually turned into something. Does that ever happened with you? Yeah. It's a thing about taking a title back and taking a concept back. I think the way you have to do it is just trust that you've put enough kindness in the bank with people to be like, Okay, that song that we wrote that is doing nothing that hasn't gotten cut and it's just sitting there. I'm going to take that title and you tell them, Oh, you have to tell them. I think you need to tell them because I would have called it be boffing down the street my second version with I've definitely done that. So but there are times where you've not been satisfied with the result of an idea for who it could have been your fault too, totally much as anyone else's, and you go, man, we just didn't hit it, like I want to use this idea though again, and you go to a different room of different people, but you will say, hey, room ay, that was good, I gotta take it back. Are they usually receptive to that? I mean most people are. I mean most people I work with are. I'm sure there's people that aren't. But I feel like I have one good idea to take it, like thirty rooms the same exact idea, and I just take it over and over. I took it. I actually texted, and I'm kind of learning not to do this. I think the lesson is don't do this. But like I texted a friend and was like, I have a song I want to write with you. It's called this, and it's about without no no no no. But then but then, but then you know, I don't have anything scheduled with them, and then I'm actually tomorrow wanting to go in and it. And so I had to text my friend and go, I don't want you to think I'm cheating on you, but I am taking that title back. And he actually goes, oh, that's funny, because like I just gave a title to so and so, and I think I'm going to take it back. And I was like, here's your chance. Said earlier, is that if you have enough kindness in the bank, yeah, people will give you grace quicker, yeah, and probably fuller than if you don't. I am learning that. That is, if you're generally pretty kind to people, like treat people well, let them know how much you love them, like when you see them, really let them know that you can. There's just more you can trust how much people love you. You can really trust it. And I'm not a big trust you, but I know what you're saying. That's also what I'm going to therapy, like half an hour. You can trust it. I am getting better. Yeah, you can, you really can. I encourage you to. But that doesn't mean like you can just go be don't worry. I won't awful, but I'm generally not going to be awful to someone generally, but occasionally I'm kid. We all have, we all have, we all have. So whenever you decide to finally put out your own project, M and you're right in these saw do you is it purposeful that you go, I want to do a project for me, or do you go I want to go and write a lot of songs And you start to go, wow, this actually just kind of I is me? I identifying that so usually, And it's been that ever since I broke the seal and decided to start releasing stuff. I think it was two thousand nineteen. I put a song out. It was like the first one I've had in forever, but it was called Only the Truth. But like since then, I've been putting things out, but it was always things. Only the Truth I did write for me, and then I wrote Signs of Life. That EP was written for me. Moon Riser was about I mean songs, you know your life comes into your song, so it was about my life and I ended up putting it out not knowing when we recorded him that it would be for me. But now I'm making another record and I'm actually really um inspired to write for it, and it's a different kind of it's gonna be a little more indie like pop kind of. I think this is your problem. We're here talking about another record. You're already promoting something else, and you're like, I don't know how to promost stuff, don't, okay, So it just makes stuff. It's a problem that we will talk about. Then let's the truth comes out, you see, Let's play perfect example, this Young from Moon Riser. I'm never gonna be this young. I'm never gonna be this green again. Times gonna do what time does? It's gonna change everything? Are you looking back? Last and all the beautiful pass stick? This is the next track, hard Things Here you go. So don't tell me that I'm fratto, not strong enough to leave. Maybe this CP is like my vibe completely because I like slow and I like sad, and I like uh not a lot of electric instruments like that's if I have a choice. I was just and I haven't listened it in a while, but I was I'm having like shoulder rehab, hurt my shoulder like a year ago, and so the lady was working on my shoulder and I picked up We have a juke box over the house and I always pick up a full album to listen to. And I listened to the Nirvana Unplugged album because one of my favorite albums ever, you know, I mean ever and so, but from beginning to end, and like, that's my vibe, this is my love that. That's such a good reference. I haven't listened to that in so long. I listened to that thing so many times. I even know the word for word, the spoken parts. This is a song by the meat Pup. It's just like I can, I can go along with it. Record um on the roof. This is a trick for does up singing it up to the moon? We should you? Why on the roof? It's too happy for me? But whatever, Hey they can't you? I'm little too happy. And then here's a runaway love number five. I love the project. I'm gonna only for thirty seconds. I'm gonna ask you about the next project you're working because I want to make it about that. And I know as a creative it's always like what are you doing now? Instead of what? But what what? What's the difference in the project you're doing, you're currently creating. Well. I we were talking earlier about wanting to stretch your boundaries and do something that you've never done, and Um I asked Todd Lombardo to produce. He's an incredible acoustic guitar player, and we we came up with the process originally because I was trying to like save money and do something kind of on the cheap, and so I was like, if if it was going to be just you and I collaborating, and I was just going to send him songs that have fallen off of other projects. I was like, who's one person that you would call to um work with? And he said Nott Smith, who was a cello player that basically comes up with cello parts that sound like keyboard parts. He like fingerpicks it and he bows too, but he plays like in the bluegrass world with like Sarah Jarros and all kinds of different people. And in the studio that day, I was surprised, like he didn't want to do these other songs, like anything that sounded to country. He was like, and I told him, I was like, I want this to be full on collaboration. I want you to be a huge part of this, and so the songs that he picked were really interesting. The whole other thing, but like the process and watching the two of them work and the way that room felt made me want to write specifically, like for that. And it's a different type like one of the songs I I wrote with another artist, and I was imagining it kind of being like a Jackson Brown sounding song with like pretty normal chords and the melodies sounds like a Jackson Brown melody to me. And I sent it to Todd with no instrumentation behind it, and he put these chords underneath it took it in a completely different direction than I ever would have imagined, and I was like, well, that's pretty amazing. And so, yeah, I wanted to be about the record. I don't necessarily want it to be like it all starts with a song necessarily for this project, I kind of wanted it to be like just a little more cerebral that when it comes out we talk about that, yeah, exactly, and now we're done talking about Now we're done. I want people to get to know you as an artist, and I hope they check out Moon Riiser because it is fantastic. Um, I do want to play for you. Now. One of my favorite songs that you wrote. I believe it was number four in the Hot Country chart. It's a little song by Mason Ramsey called Famous. That's such a good song, Like if you take Yoto boy Mason Ramsey out of it, that was such a good song. Like I think a lot of people could have made that a smash. Yeah, it did. It wouldn't matter who. I think you could put Thomas rhet and so what I remember thinking when he cut the song was Okay, this is good for him because it's like famous for loving muse a it. I was like, man, this song could have been a massive h I mean, a monster for an established artist, and they would have kicked the door down to get it. I was hoping for f g L, Like that's what I really wanted because Tyler's on it. I know, I really thought it was going to be an f g L song. And I didn't know you then. I knew of you, and we had met and passing a couple of times, and I didn't know that you'd written this song at first. But I just remember hearing that song and going out good for Mason Ramsey. You know, I see what they're trying to do here right he had that is such a great song they have gifted him. Yeah, and just thinking if anybody else had this song, it would be a monster. I know. Well, I just remember being like originally going, he's so young. I mean, I don't even know how young he was. How old was twelve? Probably twelve? Yeah, probably twelve twelve? Talking about I want to be famous for loving you. I guess boys would get to more of that of a feeling than girls. I don't know. When I was twelve, I wasn't thinking about I guess I will was. There was boys when I was twelve, But I think it's a boy to your Do you think you know what it means? You know? No way? But I loved it, and I thought that was just a wonderful song. Um, and then lady A, you wrote Ocean. Yeah, what was the name of that album? Was name? Okay? That's yeah, that's what I was wondering. Yeah, if you get the title, then that's what I I guess. It's white Kid of my mind. If you get the title track, do you really do you think it's gonna be a single? I wasn't. I don't know. I hoped that it would and the song. Actually, this was a big realization for me. I was surprised they didn't pick it as a single because it was streaming so well. It was streaming better than there actual radio singles. Did you maybe I know so much about this. Did you write that? And I don't have this as in my notes, I could be completely wrong. Did you write that with Tofur? Yeah? I wrote that with Tofur, who wrote who I met on the Jillian project? Ok, yeah, that's how I know with the song because I know Tofur. Yeah, he's the best. Yeah, and Abe Sto Classa got it and this is a great song. And I think he too was. I was talking to him at the time and he was like, why is that not a single? Well, we learned it was because it was streaming so well. Like the label was making their money, you know what I mean, Like we don't have to make another yes, Bobby, Hey, so the label makes theirs, but you don't get to make yours. No. But I was so proud of the way they recorded that. If you listen to the way, um, Gordon Moate is playing piano on that, and like they they took the click out. I don't know if they ever had it in, but like the way that they slowed down on that last chorus just a little bit. I mean when I heard that, I was literally just like, oh my god, did they really just do that? Dan? Yes? It was like so I was so proud. I thought, it's just to have somebody cut your song and then have you just be blown away by it. Such a great feeling. She's sang them m she often does, but especially in a song like that, She's so good. What did you write today? Did you already write today? I did right today with te Mecular Road. Oh yeah, was it about walking on the street? Because if it was, no, But I got that next. I got that in my head. So do you come here tired? Meaning emotionally or mentally tired from the right No, And I have learned I'm just at a different place with my writing. I feel like now that I've become just more prolific, and the more the music that I'm releasing and the more I'm letting myself just kind of be open about it. I don't hold onto things anymore. I used to feel tired at the end of rights because I was blocked. I think my heart was blocked to just in my life in general. And I just feel so much more open now, and the lyrics that just everything just is flowing so much easier for me, and the relation chip that I have with those guys. It's just so good and it's just a great day. I just I feel energized. Well, I would be exhausted time I write anything. We writer were writing comedy or I'm just like, oh my god, I'm burnt. I've used every cell in my head to try a funny as I possibly can. It's still not even that funny. Maybe I should be trying harder. Maybe that's what it is. Maybe maybe you only have massive success because you haven't tried hard enough. I've got to try harder. M one final note before we go, because we've done over an hour, which I hope you've enjoyed this. Really, I feel energized now. I'm not tired writ another song I call walking down the Street. Um, we were look you were nominated for This is not on my notes, but I was maybe like two thousand eight, maybe two thousand nine, and maybe both yours new female vocalists. It was you, Taylor Swift and Kelly Pickler totally, and then the next year it was me, possibly Kelly Pickler again and Julienne Huff So I know Taylor one at year one and Julianne wanted the next. Yeah, totally. That is that. I mean, that's like it seems like a different life. It was a different life. It really was. Um. I remember getting botox that year because they were like so young, and I was like looking at my face next to their face, and I was like, I gotta put some stuff. Okay, here's what's happening. Here's what's happening at Sarah Buxton Sarah with an h and you can follow her and she just sometimes post things like hey, I will sing for you, I will come hook cook for you. Just postings like yeah, just like I would like to sing more. I would like to more, like right exactly. That's how she communicates. So who knows, but at Sarah Buxton checkout Moon Riser. It has been a real treat to spend an hour with you, and it's been really cool. I've always been a fan, usually from I wouldn't say five feet, from like eight feet. Yeah, we're like one person away all the time, you know, Dustin or if it's not tofur or it's just you're right, there's not Eric. Now it's three ft. Now we're extremely close. We're better, both better for it. Well, thank you for sharing your story. Thank you guys. Check out Moon Riser and check out Sarah Buckston's Instagram. She could use the followers. I really could, so could I frankly thanks, thank you,