Jeff McCracken Meets World Again

00:00:20
Speaker 1: Adler had a big fifth birthday yesterday birthday party, not a birthday birthday party, and it was Sonic themed. I told you that. Then one night, randomly he told a stranger that he was having a big Batman themed birthday and I was like, well, you're wrong, it's Sonic and he's like, I never said I wanted Sonic. I was like, yes, you did. Anyway, you start recording him exactly. That's what we're getting him. A sign of contract, just one of the two. Look you signed on the dotted line. And so anyway, he had a Sonic themed birthday and he absolutely loved it. And one of the things we did was we hired characters to come and we were going to just pick Sonic and Tails because those are well. We really wanted Knuckles, but they don't have the Knuckles character, or the Knuckles character was just unavailable that day. It was one of the two. I don't think they had a Knuckles character. So we were like, okay, we're just going to get Sonic entails. That'll be good. And as we're on the phone with the guy booking it, he goes, might I suggest that you also get Doctor Robotnik and Jensen goes. He's saying we should also get Doctor Robotnik, and I was like, why do we want the bad guy there? I don't want the bad like they like Sonic and Tails. I don't need Doctor Robonnick. And the guy says, well, the problem is that Sonic and Tails can't talk. They have the giant heads on and they can't talk, so there's nothing they can really do other than just kind of stand there. Doctor Robotnik can do games and relay races and think. And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, let's definitely add Doctor Robotnick. And boy, am I glad we did.

00:02:02
Speaker 2: It would have been a lot of silence and awkward waving.

00:02:06
Speaker 1: I was dying. Doctor Robotnik was so hype and like people were saying they parked, they had to park down the street and they could hear him down the block. Yeah, we did, and I.

00:02:17
Speaker 3: Parked way far away and we're like, oh, I think they're about to sing the song because there's some guy screaming like it's Adler's birthday song, and I was like, what the hell is happening right now?

00:02:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was a little crazy.

00:02:29
Speaker 2: When we pulled up and I saw the Sonic standing you know. I was like, Indy, Indy, I think I think that's ugly Sonic.

00:02:36
Speaker 1: And he got really excited.

00:02:37
Speaker 2: He's like, really, is it really ugly Sonic. I'm like, no, no, I don't think that's the thing. And please don't say that to the guy walking up. Oh you're ugly Sonic. But yeah, I know he thinks ugly. You know what's weird? Like Indy's never played a single Sonic game.

00:02:53
Speaker 5: He doesn't. It's like that.

00:02:55
Speaker 2: The contest. I never played it, so I don't really like. But it's just so like he knows everything. He knows all the characters, and he's seen the movies and he does like the movies. But it's it's just so crazy to me that it has no relationship to.

00:03:07
Speaker 1: A video video games.

00:03:08
Speaker 2: It's just it's just content and characters and like all of this stuff, it sort of floats around in the absorb it and they you know, Pokemon. He never played the Pokemon card game, but he went through a Pokemon phase.

00:03:19
Speaker 1: And I'm just the opposite.

00:03:22
Speaker 3: I've never seen a Sonic movie, I've never seen a Sonic cartoon. But I played the original Sonic game.

00:03:26
Speaker 4: It was great. It was like it was Sega's version of Mario.

00:03:29
Speaker 3: That's like what came with the console, and it was it was think you'd hear all the coins?

00:03:33
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, it was super cool.

00:03:34
Speaker 1: Oh I love the Sonic game. And and Adler also has never played Pokemon with the cards, but he knows everybody. He's like, oh, that's Peakachu, and that's so and so. And he likes the rap battles on Spotify they do Pokemon rap battles, So two different Pokemon characters rap battle and he loves those.

00:03:52
Speaker 2: God, here's such gensens.

00:03:55
Speaker 4: We know he's Jenson's kid.

00:03:57
Speaker 2: He's already like, wait, wait, can two cares insult each other and wrap for?

00:04:03
Speaker 4: I enjoy that?

00:04:04
Speaker 1: I really Yeah, that's good. We've been making fun of him in rhymes since he was Yeah it sounds. It was really fun. And doctor Robotnik really got the party started, as had the time of his life. Indy was in the bounce house being absolutely pummeled by five year olds and their little siblings.

00:04:31
Speaker 3: The bounce house was so we look over at one point, so all of a sudden, looks like a triage station in the Korean War.

00:04:38
Speaker 2: Every five minutes, so the kid is coming out crying being cares one kid.

00:04:42
Speaker 3: I'm talking to one kid about magic the gathering, who's six or seven years old, who's got tissue on his face because he was kicked in the mouth, so he's bleeding from the mouth as he's talking about magic. Meanwhile, two other kids roll out of the bounce house crying as if they were just like it just taken down too. There's two other kids literally holding their legs like shaking on the ground, and I just see Jensen walk over.

00:05:04
Speaker 4: He crabs and plug he goes. I'm calling it. I'm calling it.

00:05:10
Speaker 2: All the things like that.

00:05:11
Speaker 4: I actually became a cage match.

00:05:13
Speaker 5: It was intense.

00:05:15
Speaker 3: It was incredible to watch this whole I just it was like one of those old war movies. Everything was all of a sudden in slow motion, and the kids were like crying on the ground as the music played.

00:05:24
Speaker 1: And the better part was that kids would come out crying. I just got body slim and then they'd cry for a second, get a hug from their mom, and then go right.

00:05:34
Speaker 4: Back in, right back in.

00:05:35
Speaker 2: I just want to see they just wanted to be noticed, acknowledged. This is crazy, what's happening.

00:05:40
Speaker 1: I'm going in, I'm going down there.

00:05:41
Speaker 3: Well, the greatest thing is just all these little crying kids leaving the party, like as they're bawling being handed their little gift bag.

00:05:48
Speaker 2: So here, by the way, rape cotton candy in the gift bag?

00:05:56
Speaker 1: Is it so good?

00:05:57
Speaker 2: Rape cotton candy?

00:05:58
Speaker 4: Who thinks somebody sud get off the juice boxes?

00:06:01
Speaker 2: Juice boxes? And he was like, Dad, cotton candy is weird. I'm like, yeah, cotton candy is weird. He's like, it's just like sugar that dissolves in your mouth. I'm like yeah, he's like, but grape is good. It's like, there's no such thing as great. He's like, try this. And now I'm candy. So we got a shipment coming. I've I've ordered a.

00:06:21
Speaker 4: Brand new way to inguest fine sugar.

00:06:23
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, you guys have the cake though.

00:06:26
Speaker 4: Yes, I don't do cake.

00:06:30
Speaker 1: Person either, but I loved this cake.

00:06:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are like we're a bad boy meets world along that that were not cake people.

00:06:37
Speaker 5: I know.

00:06:38
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm gonna need the name of your pizza place though, because that pizza pizza place was good.

00:06:43
Speaker 1: Oh that's the best best pizza in La It's prime pizza. It's literally the best pizza. Where do you get it in Burbank? So did you have people drive to go get her? They deliver it from Bourbank. They delivered it for a large delivery fee and a don't think they normally deliver. We did it through the catering department and they were like, well, we'll do it. It's going to cost you, but man, it's it's.

00:07:09
Speaker 2: Under the name to Penga.

00:07:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll do it.

00:07:13
Speaker 1: We'll do it, We'll do it.

00:07:15
Speaker 2: It was.

00:07:16
Speaker 1: It was a really fun party. We had, you know, like you mentioned great pizza. We had a cake from Varta which was a tres leches cake with strawberries.

00:07:24
Speaker 2: Good.

00:07:25
Speaker 1: I'm not a cake person either, but boy did I enjoy that cake. And yeah, it was a turned out to be a wrestling match, which you know, guy, you guys knew that was in our wheelhouse. So it's just pretty perfect. And now writers a great cotton candy guy and Will is obsessed with honest juice boxes.

00:07:40
Speaker 4: They were, I'll be honest, they were great.

00:07:43
Speaker 2: Yeah you never had an honest juice box, no, I guess there axes all the time.

00:07:49
Speaker 4: So this was a great one.

00:07:51
Speaker 3: And two of the lechas were really good the third one.

00:07:54
Speaker 1: Okay, welcome to Pod Meets World.

00:07:59
Speaker 4: I'm Danielle Fischel, I'm right or Strong, and I'm Wilfred Hell.

00:08:13
Speaker 1: As Season four of Boy Meets World comes to an end here on the podcast. Like Boys to Men once said, it's so hard to say goodbye, they also said Boys to Men ABC, BBD the East Coast Family, But that's not really important right now. What is important is that, based on your Instagram comments.

00:08:34
Speaker 6: East Coast Family, it works.

00:08:37
Speaker 1: She's not really She's not really quite important in the scheme of things, but I did just want to get it out. We are in for a bumpy ride based on reading your comments from here on out, and even though we are leaving what appears to be the peak of our show, we still have questions. What made this season so special? Why did everything come together during these shoots? What was the special sauce? We recently spoke to Jeff Sherman about the writer's room and his seminal scripts from that year, and today we've decided to go even further and talk to another creative mind who was so important to season four. We literally couldn't have done it without him. He's a director who not only was a leader for us on stage, but influenced our lives offset helping shape us into the adults we are today. And it seems you all love him too. At a recent live show in Connecticut, we were lucky enough to have him sitting in the audience, and some fans recognized and even asked him for a photo. Why is he such an expert? On season four he directed all twenty two episodes. So please welcome back to Podmeets World the most special Jeff McCracken.

00:09:47
Speaker 6: I hope he shows up wearing just an apron and painting.

00:09:49
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be great? Pat and no shirt.

00:09:53
Speaker 4: There's still in better shape than I could ever hope to be in.

00:09:56
Speaker 2: My liafe now looking younger than us, that's about.

00:09:59
Speaker 1: Right, putting us all to shame, as per usual.

00:10:06
Speaker 5: Disappoint you.

00:10:11
Speaker 2: We're just on the covered in paint like you, just walking away from the canvas. Real quick little interview.

00:10:18
Speaker 5: So good to see you man, Good to see you guys. Oh my god, I'm still I'm still in a glow overseeing you in Hartford months ago.

00:10:26
Speaker 1: Always so great.

00:10:27
Speaker 3: Connecticut does that to people? You leave with the glow for the very beautiful state.

00:10:32
Speaker 1: We go absolutely, well, Jeff, we are so happy to have you back, and in such a celebratory way, because we loved season four so much and we won wanted to give you your flowers for it, and two we wanted to find out what made this time so special for making Boy meets World. First question, when we say season four, what are the first things that come to mind for you?

00:11:01
Speaker 5: Well, aside from the well, it was a terrific season. I mean, it was an amazing season, but I think the first three seasons really set it up. You know, those first three seasons really established all the characters and and gave us a rooting interest for everybody in the relationships. So I think we capitalized in season four. You know, I think we had an easy way to direct and focus our you know, our storylines. You know. I was just on a on a I WoT my dog in this creek called b B Brook and there's a suspension bridge over the over the river, and there's an engraving in the in the hand. Really it says it's by Threau and it says, uh, the universe is wider than our view of it. And as the season four kind of well, the whole show really but we're talking about season four. But it's kind of of how it's a great metaphor for the show because I think at the time we were, you know, making Boy Meets World, we didn't have a clue really as to the scope of it. You know that the fact it would have I just know, the demands of making the show and surviving week to week consumed are full and immediate attention. You know, none of us were thinking of of creating any kind of legacy or television folklore. I mean we were hanging by the you know, our fingernails week to week, you know, jumping budget demands, studio notes, network notes, ratings, time slat changes, sensors, stunt casting, figuring out sweep squeeks.

00:12:47
Speaker 2: You know, and you directed every single.

00:12:54
Speaker 4: That isn't that is so intense.

00:12:56
Speaker 5: It was intense because I was also the head of the company and I was also so uh we had four shows on the air at one time, and so we were running all over the place. You know, Thank god, we dinosaurs had already come to an end because you know, we had Bob Young. They are running, running, the running the room. And thank God for Bob because Bob, he was just a total you know, fantastic show runner, and I think he's a large part of why it was such a successful season four. I really, I really mean, because Michael was off. You know, he's juggling these the other shows and new shows too, which you know is very hard a new show, the demands are extraordinary, and so Bob, you know, he really stirred the show so that when Michael showed up for run throughs and for taping, he can easily shape that show. You know, Michael put his brand on it and help us, you know, with a fresh set of eyes and play. I mean, Michael was always around. I mean he was there for every run through and he was there giving notes and very involved. But but Bob was the was the anchor, and uh, he was incredibly reliable. He was like a utility player, you know, full who helped out wherever you know, he he was needed. And he was a true, true unsung hero who was intelligence and common sense. Yeah, train on the tracks.

00:14:23
Speaker 3: He was also so soft spoken that he kind of yeah he kept and talk about some hero.

00:14:29
Speaker 5: It's because he was.

00:14:30
Speaker 4: He was like in the background for us.

00:14:32
Speaker 2: His ego. He didn't need to assert it like he did not like constantly put himself front and center or make big speeches to us, or ever really let us know how much he was doing.

00:14:41
Speaker 3: That's well, I think until you just said it, I did not know that he was actually running the room.

00:14:46
Speaker 5: I mean he and he was also jumping on the other shows as well with Michael. He was Michael's partner, I mean Bob, he had a partner named Bob Meyer, who was they met. They were hired for My two dads were running team and my two dads so when Bob went his own way to run Roseanne Bob Meyer, Bob came over to Disney and worked with Michael, and he has own and uh to work with Michael and uh. And I have to say, if it went for Bob, those shows would not have been nearly as good because it was just overwhelming, you know, to do as many shows as as you know, he ran Dinosaurs. I mean when I was on Dinosaurs with him, he ran that room. Uh, it was it was basically Bob's show, really, I mean Michael, I meant anything way from Michael at all, but Bob was the nuts and bolts of that, you know, and we had a great staff on that as well. I mean that's The one thing too on boy Me's World is the success of that year with our writers, you know, going through each episode. I watched the entire season this week, and so I was like blown away. I really was listening to your podcast and listening to your insights which have been phenomenal, and but also getting a chance to relive it. I was shocked and really surprised at how much I remembered and how much impact it had on my life and uh and and being part of yours.

00:16:13
Speaker 6: It was really very special, such a great season.

00:16:17
Speaker 1: Do you remember anything about the transition from season three to four? You've obviously been listening to the podcast, and you know, we were getting older, we lost the Bullies, we lost Eli, We're starting to see less of alan Amy, and Turner is slowly fading to the wayside. Did you have goals or directives when facing the idea that you would be directing the entire season.

00:16:40
Speaker 5: That's a that's a good question. I I don't, you know. I I don't remember how that evolved. All I know is that when I season three was really fun to you know, the shows I directed on that on that season, that was really a fun season, and in a way they really get to know the rhythm rhythm of the show, and the actors and and and and the sensibilities of the show. By the end of season three, I'd fallen in love with the show. I really, I mean all you guys, I just fell in love with everybody. And so when Michael said to me, he said, well, I need I need a steady hand. You know, Bob's gonna be in the writer's room. You know, you're on the set. It was a way for him to make sure he was leaving the show in good hands, right to go off and do the other shows. And so I think that it was kind of a I just kind of assumed that, Okay, wherever I am needed, you know, I'm gonna do that. You know, I never had intention of directing and producing dinosaurs, as I said to you last time, I just want to do feature films. But once you get involved with something that you love and is really great, and then you just jump on board. So as far as our direction for the season four, I think, as I said before season three, set you all up, it was it was a natural aggression for me. You know, all the shows that we did, favorite shows from you know, in ranking them, like I got to go through them all, and really I love them all. But there's a I have favorites, you know, there's favorite that it really resonated with me personally and and then professionally and then artistically. So I think, you know, from that perspective, I think the writers did a great job of mining and putting forth those relationships again, you know, between you all, and you think about I mean, we covered so many bases in this season. I mean, if you think about really what we covered, I mean we went from you know, you know, teenage love, you know, up ending a teenager's life by you know, moving them to a different city. Parental abandonment, child of vanity.

00:18:55
Speaker 1: The importance of the as in college.

00:18:57
Speaker 5: Yes, definding one's identity, honoring one's potential and self worth, class prejudice, mortality with Tony, parental responsibility forgiveness, self respect, and not to mention, the best way to the e Coca buffs.

00:19:14
Speaker 4: I think that's that's been haircuts. No, wait, so I can't.

00:19:21
Speaker 3: I have to ask because you said that you went through and you watch the entire season and you kind of ranked them. What turned out to be your favorite episode of season four?

00:19:29
Speaker 5: Well, you know, for different reasons. You know, like I said you before you asked me that last time we talked and I and I mentioned and then there was seean and then I said along walk to Pittsburgh. And I didn't really I said it because for some I don't know why I said it time. Frankly, you just came to me and then rewatched watching the season again. They were my favorites again, both of those part one and part two. Part one written by Nelson, part two written by Bluckman and Busking. And the reason is because it's set up and established the hardcore relationship between Man and Danielle we've been thirsting for and being and have been promised. Now. I remember you in your podcast you were saying it was kind of like out of nowhere. You know that this relationship is already, you know, the struggle was compounded for out of thin ear almost.

00:20:32
Speaker 1: So those were your two favorites of season four, and it's a perfect time to ask. One of my questions was do you I'll be diplomatic now and say I know you love and respect all the writers, but did you have a favorite? Is there somebody's name on a script that when you saw their name on a script you would immediately go ooh, I know I'm in for something good.

00:20:53
Speaker 5: Well, they were all that, they all had a different personality and they all came through and every show is it's really quite quite amazing, you know. Uh, you know Nelson let us off and Jeff being a playwright and Jeff being uh a very sensitive soul. Uh. He was really wonderful from that respect, you know. And and I love Nelson and I love Sherman. I think they those two had the heart and soul that I always always uh kind of when I saw their name on a script. Here's where we're going, you know, Well in a bus gang, I knew was me funny. I knew we're gonna have a good time. You know. But that's not to say they all had their different different assignments and different ways to do it. And it was a writer's room, so they were all. They were all contributing. They were all in their swing swinging the bat together. So I don't you know, I don't have favorite man. Manel was always I you know, I used you could tell you know, Hibbert, I mean, my god, here wrote two great and Steve and so you know, there's these writers would you know their name would be on it, but I knew it was a group of effort. I'll ultimately put his stamp on it. I remember, you know those readwrites sometimes will go all night because you know it was just they wanted to make it great for you guys.

00:22:12
Speaker 4: It did almost seem like the writers.

00:22:15
Speaker 3: You know, I haven't been a part of many writers rooms, but it does almost seem like the writer that's assigned the script that gets their story through.

00:22:23
Speaker 4: It's almost like they write the tone of the episode and then it's thrown to the room and then the script is actually written. But you can feel a Hibbert episode.

00:22:34
Speaker 3: You can't feel an episode a Sherman episode like it's the feel of the writer. And then you can go, oh, that's a Bluman joke. Oh that's a Sherman joke. Read that's a Michael Jacobs read like you know, Michael no, no, Like you know that's how it happened.

00:22:50
Speaker 4: So it is interesting because that's true.

00:22:51
Speaker 3: You could we as we started watching them, especially when we have to watch them kind of in order and back to back to back, you can really get that feeling of it's up in a bus gang, something Wacky's gonna happen. You know what's gonna It's a Menel episode, like you just it does. Each writer has their own tone that very much comes through, especially in season four.

00:23:10
Speaker 5: And Janson Susan Jansen, I love I mean, you know, it's writers as a room. I loved every one of them. They're all so great. They were great people, you know, so that's the thing, you know, you don't have. There were no egos. There were there were you know, I know there were some certain tensions here and there about about uh uh, you know, titles and this and that sometimes, but but ultimately it didn't take anything away from their enthusiasm for dding for you guys. You know, I was seriously if it weren't for you guys there you were able to give these writers the ability to write as good episodes as they wrote because you demanded it, you know, you know, I said last time, you know, Bill Daniels kind of set the bar right from the beginning that this was you could You couldn't pander, You couldn't. You had to really own up and tell a good story and and honor good actors, you know, and give them material that they could you know, sink their teeth into and the other thing that I always remember, you know, I was watching these shows and how much we covered in twenty two minutes.

00:24:11
Speaker 7: Yeah, mines Per showing like like fishing for Verna, I mean, my god, dealing with a mother who abandoned her family and the comeback and by the end of the episode you're you're kind of going where you were rooting for them. It's like it's the paramount sin of of a parent to abandon their family, you know, and then to have that as a you know, the main storyline and then bring it into a full focus for redemption and reconciliation or the beginning of anyway. I really it's remarkable.

00:24:50
Speaker 2: And that's the episode where the lunch lady dies too, right, there's a lot going on.

00:24:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is.

00:24:57
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's true what you said about, especially about Build Daniels. When you start there with the casting bill made it very clear you're going to come up to my level. I'm not going down to yours. And so it was all of us kind of like, oh, that's where we need to be. And I think all of the writers really loved that, frankly, because it was like we can write whatever we want and hopefully we grew as actors as the show, and I mean clearly when you watch season one and season four, we're all just way better now. So to see that progression, I think you're right. I think when you do start with an anchor like Bill for our cast, and then you've got somebody like Michael anchoring just knowing family Sitcom, then everybody else moves.

00:25:40
Speaker 4: Up to that level when they can. And I think that shows frankly, no question.

00:25:44
Speaker 1: Well, right off the bat the season premiere you Can Go Home Again. We noticed immediately it looked like there were bigger budgets money. Production design was incredible, the new sets, the gigantic yocation, shoot driving scenes. Was there a significant difference in the budget or was it really just that people were getting their ten thousand hours?

00:26:06
Speaker 5: Oh no, no, no, there they they definitely we had we had, you know, the first show, and we were always fighting the budget. You know, we always wanted I mean, look at these guys. They would have me a script with you know, wrestling or you know, you know bmbs. All this stuff require new sets all the time, or look shooting.

00:26:28
Speaker 4: So singled out they were going on all these.

00:26:33
Speaker 5: I had invented a game show. What a game show would look like you know, singled out. We borrowed their set. You know, that was really fun. They were very very conciliatory and helpful, but again up to a point and it's okay, now it's your you know, you have to deal with it now. And uh. And then the wrestling show for you know, sixteen candles, that was the most difficult show. I say, it was just crazy. I mean I had to shoot the show like like I had like probably a one time I think eight to ten cameras. I had six cameras that they really they normally use for the first actuals.

00:27:09
Speaker 2: Right the w do covering them. They're covering them three hundred and sixty degrees, whereas we're usually only one direction.

00:27:16
Speaker 5: It was insane. And then I can't imagine always insane. And we only had one chat that you know, basically one take, maybe two takes. I had you running a couple of times, so we had coverage like at least twice and everything. But but it was insane. We had a full audience there and it was in It was nuts, but but it worked out great. We did our prep, we were all set and ready to go. You guys were phenomenal and so it really worked out nicely.

00:27:44
Speaker 1: But did you go to you were there for the all the wrestling stuff too, right, because I know there's a very fantastic behind the scenes picture of you in the ring with Ben and myself where you're blocking our dance sequence and Vader and and then are in the background. It's one of my favorite pictures. I have an eight by ten of it. I absolutely love it. So I knew you were there for all of that. So were you it was at the pond, right?

00:28:09
Speaker 5: Oh yeah? Oh yeah, oh yeah, we we we First of all, we just the pre production alone. I was there several times just.

00:28:17
Speaker 1: Just going through looking at it.

00:28:19
Speaker 5: All the cameras and studying that, you know, w w uh have you know, coverage and shows and then I had I had there's so there were so many moving parts before we got into that arena, you know, to.

00:28:33
Speaker 1: Shoot and when were you doing this prep when you're not when you're on set every week leading up to it.

00:28:40
Speaker 5: Weekends were a big part of that, you know, weekends and then after the show, you know, I would after run through, I would run over to the pond and do all the work. But that's what always I was always I was. It was twenty four to seven. I never told my family your making right.

00:28:56
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why we got so much like your children.

00:29:02
Speaker 2: We're sorry to your real children.

00:29:04
Speaker 5: Yes, they held that against me for a little bit.

00:29:08
Speaker 1: But right now they were fine.

00:29:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, bringing you onto their podcast.

00:29:15
Speaker 4: Exactly.

00:29:18
Speaker 1: They've given them grand children, right. Well, the second episode of the season might just be my favorite of the rewatch hair Today, Goon tomorrow, which is when I cut my hair. What do you remember from this very high pressure day.

00:29:53
Speaker 5: Well, I remember your your Extrawdinarily, you were very nervous. I remember you being extraordinary nerves in a way that was like you were professional obviously, and I knew you were gonna be fine. But you know, we had one one shut, one take, yeah, and everyone's on pins and neils. You know, it was just one of those things. And and then when you did it, it was like I thought that scream was actually quite real.

00:30:25
Speaker 1: Everyone everyone was so sure that I was really scared about cutting my hair. But the truth is I was thrilled.

00:30:32
Speaker 4: You wanted to cut it. The whole week. You were like, I can't wait to cut it.

00:30:36
Speaker 1: I cannot wait. I wanted to do it more all summer, and the thing that scared me, of course, was the fact that I knew we only had one take and to set it up, you know, Jeff had come out to me. You would come out to me many times and said, listen, we only have it once. I need you to go, like, you're going to cut your hair, but you cannot cut it until I know we have it all. So it was like, so I'm gonna yell stop, But then the way I was gonna know if I could cut it, you weren't gonna yell stop. So I am like, many times, go to cut my hair and then you'd yell and come running out, and I'd be like, I'm not gonna cut it, and then when I'm supposed to, it's just quiet, and I'm.

00:31:19
Speaker 4: Like, for real, forriller out because I'm gonna.

00:31:21
Speaker 1: Do it now, Like that's in my head. It was like and Michael. I remember Michael coming out and going show me where you're gonna cut, show me, show me where you're gonna do, Where are you gonna grab, where are you gonna grab And it was like, well, I'm gonna grab her nope, lower nope, because he did not want it to be too short. Okay, and he knew I had control because I was gonna be the one with the scissors. So he wanted to know, show me again, show me again, what are you gonna do? Where are you gonna where are you grabbing it? Where are you gonna cut? And I was like, in my mind, I wanted it a little shorter. I knew he wanted it a little longer, and so yes, it was a very intense day.

00:31:54
Speaker 5: But boy, and then we're anxious to cut your hair.

00:31:57
Speaker 1: Though I had wanted to cut my hair for so long, the reason we did the episode is because I had called Michael the beginning of summer and said I want to cut my hair. Can I cut it? And he said, at least let me write an episode for it, So I had to wait all summer. So by the time we got to it, I had been ready to cut my hair for months. But we completely forgot and we were just couldn't believe it when we watched it that it was the same episode as Good Looking Guy, which which yeah, I mean, Mike, have been Will's biggest comedic episode. Yet you got to shoot another show opening for him, And so what do you remember about it? Because to us it was such just a massive reminder of what a huge star and a genius this guy is.

00:32:41
Speaker 5: Well, no question, you know, we didn't know, you know, going into it. Everything with Will was like, Okay, let's try this, you know, let's throw this at him. Le's see what we can do. And it's like amazing. Every time we threw anything at him, he would come up and commit a wholeheartedly to it. When it was bad, We'll always was good, seriously, you know. But but this particular episode with gellow boy, I mean that shallow boy, but the woman looking guy was I mean, so all these were set up pieces for him to showcase our our wonderful, comedic genius show, you know, and so and when he was really wonderful is that in this particular thing, well feeny, I mean the fact that well, anyway, I just think that Will nailed it. And and uh, throughout the week I saw, you know, he kind of got it right from the get go, he kind of had it already. It was it was almost like, you know, you don't want to peak too soon. That that was the thing about the show. Sometimes our run throughs were so good that where are we to do now? Because they're so good and uh, are we gonna get stale? But by the time we shoot, and so you know, the I think we always kind of held back a little bit, you know, but Will Will was always in there one hundred percent and he never failed to throw it one hundred percent every every through, every take, every It was just great, you know. And and what was nice too, he had a consistency but made it feel like very improvisational all the time. You know. It was like that wonderful moment, the moment that Miser talked, you know, Michael and I just go moment a moment, listen and have fun, you know, and with a point of view. You know, that's that was also great about all of you guys. You always always had always listened beautifully and you always had a great point of view, with the point of view which made it really engaging to watch. And because we were not interested in what you were saying, but how you were you know, were reacting And and that's what gave us our rooting interest for you guys, because we knew you were real and you you respected each other, and we were always in there with each other, taking care of each other as actors. It was really wonderful, really wonderful.

00:35:08
Speaker 1: Season four also marked the beginning the debut of the Wilderness Store, which is a pretty intense set.

00:35:17
Speaker 3: And we all set remember that, Jeff, we'd we'd be walking, We'd be like, well, let's do it back there ninety feet from the.

00:35:23
Speaker 2: Camera happened and that balcony because it was just too far.

00:35:28
Speaker 1: I know, there was one scene where where you guys were stacked on the stairs one time, and all I could picture was how you had to get the cameras all the way in there in order to be able to do it. We also seemed to remember it being used more than it was. I mean, there are quite a few scenes that take place in it, but they don't really necessarily showcase the Wilderness Store.

00:35:48
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was a shame it wasn't utilized more.

00:35:51
Speaker 1: Did you remember the bear that we had in there?

00:35:53
Speaker 5: I remember the bear last episode last podcast I talked to You was one of my favorite moments is when the bear stands up and and will we put a fan behind behind the camera? Air would be blown, you know. When the guy walked on said with the one arm, that was the best Troy. That to me was one of the best jokes and and it was nothing never mentioned it that was like, I love like that best.

00:36:30
Speaker 2: My favorite site as from the season was when the Affair to Forget episode where I just have a trophy, like I've just become a yuppie and we nevers it is completely like upper tennis player.

00:36:47
Speaker 3: So Danielle mentioned that, and I think we talked about this a little bit. Daniel mentioned that, you know, it's really starting to showcase more of us and kind of less of the parents. Was this something that was just a natural progression or is there an actual conversation about we need to focus this more on the younger kids than the adults.

00:37:07
Speaker 5: You know, I don't think it was ever a conscious decision and we never said we never said, oh, we're gonna focus more on the kids. I think you're right, and it was an actual progression. But if you look at the episodes closely, uh, they were still very pivotal. I mean, I mean Alan's whole storyline about to get the store to the store, you know, about his self worth and and and and sense of of of of relevance. And I think that everybody adults, you know, I never felt that they were being short drifted. Ever, when I watched this again. Their their function and I mean stings with with Feeney, Betsy and Rusty Uh, you know, and and when he's going through his his his job dilemma. It was one of the best scenes, I know, phenomenal There's those three of them and then Betsy knocking out of the park everything she got, I mean all of them. So they were a great uh. They were the backboard for you guys to hit the balls against. And I think they their relevance for me was just as strong as any other season because when you went to them, they gave They were the backbone for you guys to to to to uh to build on, and they were always the moral compass. They were always the kind of the the thing that gave you permission to be kids in a way, you know. Anyway. I just, I just I loved the evolution of that show of season four, and I don't you know, I think it's the beginning of that for sure, because season five, six and seven, you guys are off college and blah blah blah. So yeah, there their roles do do become diminish. I mean, I think the first selva was when when Turner uh is gone, you know, you start to see, you know, when Alex Deser disappears. I mean you certain people just start to get you know, because of the functionality of of twenty two minutes, you know, and trying to fit that many characters, and you can't. If it was an hour show, they would have been much more present.

00:39:17
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about Turner. What is your take on it? He was iced out pretty quickly and then we have the motorcycle accident, which we will get to later. What do you remember about the discussions of him leaving the show and was there any possibility that Turner being in the hospital was Michael's way of kind of pushing the hand. Was it a network thing? Was it a money things? We talked about the possibility that leaving it on a cliffhanger of him kind of in the hospital. Was there any sort of possibility that they were like, let us bring him back because people are going to want to see this resolved. What's your take on the Turner all I didn't want to kill him, right.

00:39:56
Speaker 5: That was not our right goal and that was and it was our discussion with with with bringing him back. Really it wasn't the money thing. Uh. We wasn't asking to become you know, better paid or anything like that. Tony was off for I think there were other interests. There was other interest in him, other shows. So I think he wanted, you know, there was a certain thing with giving him his freedom to be able to pursue those shows. And we didn't know you know, you know, it was kind of a thing where again the evolution of how much do we take from Bill, you know, and give the limited amount of time we have on screen, we wanted to make sure Bill was covered, you know, and and and that he was always the the main the main presence of teaching.

00:40:51
Speaker 2: So and the irony there is that he Tony has brought in second season in a way to have somebody to play off Bill. But then once the Sean Turner died, dynamic Turner became much more of the sort of home dynamic than the school dynamics. So yeah, that's that's ironic.

00:41:06
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is in a way. But also because as you guys got older then then Feenie had more of interplay, more of an adult interplay with you guys, so Will, especially with Will, you know, I mean, there was just a thing there where Will was elevating to a point where that became the friendship.

00:41:25
Speaker 2: And their chemistry is just so good. I mean, you take these two characters, these two actors, very different energies, and you put them together.

00:41:32
Speaker 5: It's magic every time exactly. So I think that's that that was, you know, just just that that that dynamic between them. This makes me laugh every time I see them together. I just you know, uh, they just have this wonderful you know, quid pro quo. It's just the best. You know.

00:41:51
Speaker 1: Well, we may have hit our first snag of season four with the singled Out episode. While we were watching, we all felt so much for you. This must have been a nightmare. What do you remember about hijacking their set? There hundreds of extras and maybe even you were we using their cameras as well. What do you remember about that week?

00:42:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, our camera guys came in. Okay, we we we did. We did use their their their their equipment.

00:42:22
Speaker 1: Do we use their jib?

00:42:26
Speaker 4: We did, of course.

00:42:31
Speaker 5: Ask Karen McCain, I always wanted a jib on every show.

00:42:36
Speaker 1: Every time I go to a set, I'm like, can I have a gym? The first thing you ask?

00:42:40
Speaker 5: Yep. But it cut down on a lot of cameras. Let me tell you the magical magical camera piece of equipment. Uh, anyway, I think single that was for me. It was one of those things that when you get the script and you read it, you go, Okay, this can go one of two ways. This could be really horrible or this could be fun.

00:43:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:43:03
Speaker 5: I think this show was like in between because uh, you know, thank god. You know, Jenny McCarthy didn't want to do the show.

00:43:11
Speaker 1: Right, Why didn't she want to do the show? What do you remember about it?

00:43:14
Speaker 5: Boy wirl?

00:43:15
Speaker 1: Right? It was a kid show.

00:43:16
Speaker 5: It was a kids show. She wanted a more adult She was for her own show, you know, in a movie career by the way, So she was really opting for that, you know, that was her thing. And and I don't even I don't even I didn't even her meet her. She was not a run at all. But Chris was awesome. Yeah, even Chris was kind of like, Okay, we'll do this, you know, he was, but I think that's his personality and the meet her way, you know, it's kind of like, uh, nothing phased him. He's just kind of going through it, you know. And and but he was really pleasant, really great. And then came through for us, and uh, and he improvised. He even will improvised a lot of that. By the way, there was a lot we.

00:43:58
Speaker 1: Did talk about whether or not that was improv.

00:44:00
Speaker 5: They were and that was wonderful because they kind of like, you know that they looked like me. Stuff was written, but then you guys would riff on some other things, really really funny.

00:44:09
Speaker 3: I don't remember this day at all at all.

00:44:13
Speaker 1: Been very strange.

00:44:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't remember it. I don't never worked Stones, It never worked Stone. But yeah, no I don't, I don't. I don't. Yeah, I have no, I mean, like at all.

00:44:25
Speaker 3: To the point where there's a photo of myself and Chris Hardwick and Jason Marsden.

00:44:29
Speaker 4: So I thought Jason was in the episode.

00:44:33
Speaker 5: Oh really, no he was. He was just hanging out. Well, it was chaos. It was chaos because you know, it was more chaos actually than the wrestling show because really yeah, because they were more moving pieces with their show, you know. And we had all those girls extras if you were closely. I shouldn't say this, but we actually re used them, some of them.

00:44:52
Speaker 4: We saw that, we saw those girls back.

00:44:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, we saw that to be there Jeff and I said it on the podcast. I think what happened because it's what happens when you have limited time, you shoot all you shoot, Okay, stand full of extras, all right, everybody make loud noises now, slower noises now, all those reaction shots and.

00:45:16
Speaker 4: Then just put them in and then yeah, exactly.

00:45:19
Speaker 1: And then somebody in editing was just like, go back to that shot and you either wasn't exactly.

00:45:26
Speaker 5: Marco Zabi was our editor, and I remember going to edit the show because the director gets his first cuts. And by the way, Janelle, I watch your low Pez versus Low Pez and I just want to say it again to you how wonderful they were.

00:45:37
Speaker 1: And I know you sent me such a nice email. I read it to Jensen immediately. I was like, Jeff sent me the.

00:45:42
Speaker 5: Nicest, fantastic really, congratulations, thank you so much. Yeah. No, but but this, you know, this is this is the type of thing where you go, Okay, first of all, I'm using their cameras. I'm trying to figure out how to make a how to do the four camera presentation to get the show, you know, and and to look like it's still our show. But then also, you know, inside the game show. So there was like two set there's like two things to do, and so we had to shoot it once as a kind of a wide shot kind of like like the show, and then come in for the coverage, and so it was, uh, it was kind of and so we had to really pick up and and you know, thank god for Kathy Gario supervisor, who was on top of every moment, you know, and where we were, how we needed and uh yeah, I relied on her a lot of that episode, and so we we really had. It was kind of just discombinated. And I have to say it when I walked out of there, I didn't know what we had. Don't know those things. I knew we had the coverage, but I don't know we had the performances. I don't really know if if this is going to cut together nicely. I don't know if this is going to be something that you know that I'm going to be, you know, like you.

00:46:58
Speaker 4: But it's also such a different energy from our show.

00:47:00
Speaker 3: We're yelling our lines over the crowd and we don't I mean, it was just it was jarring to be out of our comfort zone in a completely different environment where again even the dialogue was kind of shouted, so it was it was strange.

00:47:14
Speaker 2: But that's like every other episode this season. I starting with the yogurt cup, going through like everything, I mean, and you were talking about single out, but you also had to build the whole game show for the quiz show episode, and that was on our set. But still do you have like five brand new actors on the set running this show and all these oh my god, some moments.

00:47:33
Speaker 1: Some moments. I was like, it's like dance numbers for every for everything, there was a dance number basically that you had to block and shoot.

00:47:42
Speaker 5: That was fun, and I have to say, you know, you go, okay, we're going to do the same thing every week, every week every week, you know, the four cameras and you know, do a thing and we're out. You know. Giving those kind of challenges for me was really fun. I I even though, you know, probably pulled my hair out a few times, but but you know, at the end of the day, you're you. We pulled it off and it was just great, you know, I mean, because it was different, it was and I think it also lend itself to season four in the sense that we were giving our audience something you know a little more you know, gravy on the show, you know, yeah, a little more cherry.

00:48:18
Speaker 2: We upped our game all the way around the writing. I feel like the acting and in the direction, like we all upped our game.

00:48:25
Speaker 5: Yeah.

00:48:26
Speaker 1: So, speaking of Quiz Show, I I in particular, was a huge fan of the episode. I ended up really enjoying it. Do you have any particular memories of Phil Leads?

00:48:35
Speaker 5: Oh? Yeah, Phil.

00:48:44
Speaker 4: Didn't want to Phil.

00:48:47
Speaker 5: He had a litany of jokes. Yeah, dirty jokes. Yeah. And I don't know if he I asked him at one point please refrain really. Oh yeah, no, I to please because you know it's like Buddy Hackett.

00:49:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh please, Can we talk about Buddy? I want that. I want that.

00:49:04
Speaker 3: Wait do you I have to I have to first ask do you remember any Phil Leads jokes?

00:49:10
Speaker 1: Jokes?

00:49:10
Speaker 5: Oh no, I don't know. God, I wish I did. But all I know is that he would crack these jokes and they were, you know, in his delivery was just the best and very ride roll and and uh but no, I don't remember. All I remember is being shocked half the time, like.

00:49:26
Speaker 1: I can't believe he just said that.

00:49:28
Speaker 5: Yoke and and I was always like saying, okay, Phil, you know, Michael loved it. I mean, Michael loved Phil and and and so I don't know, I don't know if the joke played, you know, and he's announcing the show.

00:49:47
Speaker 1: He's so generate, it's I don't know. Yeah, I don't know when you listened to that one, because it's the one that just came out, like, okay, it is, and we talk about it, the fact that he's the that he's the only thing that stays, and but his delivery doesn't even change. It's just that you added.

00:50:09
Speaker 2: The layer onto that episode of like production in jokes, like the fact that the production value of the show keeps upping while the entertainrating are so clever man, and it totally works. It's like, yeah, I did not like.

00:50:23
Speaker 4: The I was like, okay, yeah.

00:50:26
Speaker 1: He started off being like it was an episode, and writer was like I liked it, and I was like, oh my god, guys, I love this episode. And by the time we were done, Will's like, it's.

00:50:35
Speaker 4: The best episode, the best episode we've ever done.

00:50:39
Speaker 5: You know, the geness of it, right, the genesis. You know, we did the movie Quiz.

00:50:43
Speaker 4: Show, we talked about this yeah.

00:50:45
Speaker 5: We thought, okay, let's let's do something on our show that kind of mirrors that, you know.

00:51:02
Speaker 2: Can we can we go back to Buddy Hackett and Super Sales. What do you remember about that week and did we have an audience with them or did we refuse you remember they were no.

00:51:13
Speaker 5: We I think we pre taped him. Here is why, because remember when we was wonderful to pre tap because you know, we would gave us a break and and and the audience could see something all the way through without stopping and starting or and then moving right into the next next piece. Uh. It was, it was. It was always nice to have that pre shooting on Thursdays. But I I remember, I think soupy, and I think it was I think it was about dates. I think Buddy had a date in Vegas or something he had to get to. We had to get him in out soup. He was more affable, you know, in terms of or I should say nollable with the schedule he was. He was able to. But but I remember Buddy had to come and go, you know. So I think I think we, yeah, we.

00:52:09
Speaker 3: Could any of it been done in front of the audience, because I have a very distinct memory that I talk about on the podcast of him saying, oh, that was a premature ejaculation and the whole audience going oh yeah, and it was like.

00:52:19
Speaker 5: No, you're right. There was one scene we did so maybe maybe no I remember that, well.

00:52:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, may have happened in front of network run through, and that it still got the whole stage to react that way, and that was it.

00:52:38
Speaker 5: I remember when he said that. I think that was also, yeah, No, I remember that. No, I do. No. We were all nervous about him, but we loved him. I mean, he was so much fun to be around, and he was just a character.

00:52:49
Speaker 6: Oh my god, stories never stopped.

00:52:52
Speaker 5: Stories, the stories, the stories, and him and SUPI together were just wonderful. I mean, first there was just like a contention like who's gonna be funnier? You know, who's got the funnier line?

00:53:03
Speaker 1: We heard there was a competition about how many lines each person.

00:53:06
Speaker 5: Absolutely, they were like they were like going over it like by letter, you know, and so we're like, Okay, this is gonna be fun. But as soon as they got into the characters, you know, and they could play off each other a little bit, they were they were fine, you know, they were fine. But yeah, that that was during rehearsals, it was always about I'm gonna be a little louder, i wanna be a little funnier, you know, there was a little more, you know, it was it was definitely funny to watch, you know, but I knew by the time the cameras rolled, these guys were pros and they and they they were great.

00:53:44
Speaker 1: You well, also with season four, there's a lot of the Hunter trailer. Around this time, there's this new set, a new dynamic, and we think if somebody had just started watching the show around there this time, there's no way you could convince them that the boy in Boy Meets World was anyone other than writer and writer and Will. The episodes just seemed to keep flipping between which one of them was driving the episodes. So was with all of that going on, was there ever any talk about the shift in focus or was it just organic?

00:54:21
Speaker 5: I remember there was there was a with a studio and the network. You know, it was very funny. You know, we never really had a bible for the season. We never you know, we all we didn't say, oh, this is what's going to happen overall in the season that never really took pay. Michael would and when the studios that we want this, the networks that we want this, Michael would say yeah. He would glad hand them and say, of course yes. He would immediately tell him what He would immediately turn what they said to him into what he wanted. He was masterful at that. And then they were they would not because he's telling him that he was convincing him that he was taking their note, but he was going to do it his way, so and they understood that too. But but but the bottom line was I think that Michael always had a keen sense of the stories he wanted to tell, the areas he wanted to explore. And I think Fishing for Verna, just to give you a quick that was the most And when you say one of the hardest shows I had to direct, I would say Sixteen Candles was the tough production wise, but Fishing and Verna was the most personally difficult to direct. And there's why my dad abandoned me when I was eleven years old, the oldest of four kids, and he abandoned my mom and us, and we had no money and we had to go live in the ghetto of Chicago, and and figure out how to survive. So mm hmm, when when Verna, when that that storyline came up with my Explorer, it was kind of feeding off story and and and then my dad never came back. I didn't see him. He took off. And and so the fact that she came back was kind of great because it kind of gave me a chance to live vicariously as if. Oh my god, it was very intense. Writer. So when you were doing that episode, I watched you very carefully. You were you know, you you really hit all the notes beautifully, really beautifully. And I and I there's very little I could tell you instinctively coming from a healthy, well adjusted family and being the great young man you were, Uh, you understood it. You you you had a sense about it. You know, you could identify with with being abandoned. I don't know if your personal life was at that point with girls or whatnot, but you totally hooked into what it was to be abandoned.

00:57:06
Speaker 1: Yeah. His empathy has always been through the roof.

00:57:09
Speaker 5: Yeah, always, And so that was wonderful. You gave me a great release in that episode to be able to direct you in that show and watch you navigate that emotional arc and taking care of your dad.

00:57:24
Speaker 2: That's funny because I actually didn't remember the specific your own personal history, but I always felt that Sean and Jeff McCracken were kind of of a piece of it, like and I remember thinking that, Like I remember talking to you about avoiding people and avoiding confrontation, and you were We just had great conversations about, you know, acting conversations, and I feel like for me, and this makes sense now because in my mind it was like, well, Jeff was Jeff is the touchstone for how Sean was as a team. I always in my mind you were Sewn as a teenager. That's how I remember it. And it was like Matt Nelson was writing the voice of Sean in the like sort of sentimentality, but like you were the Shawn who like, yeah, I was good with the ladies, but it was like totally emotionally avoidant. Like that's that's in my mind. So yeah, you communicated that to me and we we built that together.

00:58:19
Speaker 6: It's so fun Oh wow.

00:58:21
Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's that was the thing. And the in fact that you took care of your dad like that and became closer to him by virtue of that wanting to be a better dad all of that. I was like, whoa, this is like entering areas that i've you know, got I got a chance to heal a little bit, you know. But it's but it's it was, it was. It was monumental for me that show is difficult. But then I'll probably personally very rewarding, you know.

00:58:47
Speaker 3: But that's I mean, that's one of the reasons why I think season four was so good is that we always felt your emotional connection to the show and to us. Yeah, and so I think that just translated to a set that we were all family and part of a team, and it was just yeah, we were all there together, and we.

00:59:08
Speaker 4: Took seriously yes.

00:59:09
Speaker 2: And it never like just stand over there, why because you should, which is what directors do. Like you have directors that say that, we have many of them on this show.

00:59:17
Speaker 5: You know.

00:59:17
Speaker 2: It's just like you got to stand over here, then you go over here, it's for camera, do it. You never never gave us that. It was always like, why don't you want to do it, let's talk about it, let's take the time.

00:59:27
Speaker 4: We were all in it together.

00:59:28
Speaker 3: We just always felt like we were all in it together, like you were part of the ensemble, and it was it just made everything. I mean we've literally pointed out on the show, especially with me, where there are times where my performance is not as good and Writer will be like, well did you see who directed it?

00:59:42
Speaker 4: And it's somebody else directed it.

00:59:43
Speaker 3: Like there was just something that was You made it very comfortable to where you got the best performances.

00:59:49
Speaker 4: I mean, just you could tell and season four.

00:59:51
Speaker 3: I don't think it's a mistake that so far season four and from what we've heard, season four is the pinnacle of the show, and that you directed the entire season. Either that's not, that's not by those two things are the same.

01:00:02
Speaker 4: So it was. I mean we felt that the whole time. So it was amazing.

01:00:06
Speaker 1: Well, there are two more episodes I specifically want to highlight. One of them is Chick Like Me. It's just such an iconic episode of our show, and to everyone's credit, did not make us feel cringey, even with our twenty twenty four eyes. So kudos to everybody. What are your memories of Writer and Ben dressing as their female counterparts?

01:00:30
Speaker 5: Well, I just never had so much fun on that show. That was one of those great, great fun shows that were you could do no wrong, just put those guys in dresses and oh my god, just gallelight. You know, you know a lot of the homage that Michael would do. You know, he has a lot of favorite shows, you know, like A Hot the Odd, Unculpable. I mean you can see his influences and imbued into these shows and their relationships with different episodes and A New Leaf, all these there's all these moments said he just adores and films that he brought to the table A New Leaf.

01:01:04
Speaker 6: I just watched that recently. Movies, what are a masterpiece?

01:01:08
Speaker 5: A masterpiece?

01:01:10
Speaker 2: Blaine May totally missed masterpiece? Yeah, all of her about all of Elaine May stuff is missed. Ishtar just go watch your start. It's brilliant, I know.

01:01:18
Speaker 5: Isn't it.

01:01:18
Speaker 4: Though it's brilliant.

01:01:19
Speaker 2: It's for you. Will you have to watch A New Leaf. The first like forty five minutes of A New Leaf. I was crying, laughing. I have not laughed that hard.

01:01:28
Speaker 5: A genius.

01:01:29
Speaker 4: Elaine May is a genius.

01:01:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible, justas the horse down and walking.

01:01:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, I gotta watch it.

01:01:38
Speaker 5: Oh my god, it's so funny. You love it anyway, but we're talking about we don't know, like so no the dresses when when I never knew I mean when you guys would look like in dresses and stuff. They did a phenomenal job with the both of you, you know, and Ben was so funny because he has the thing about him there's a certain there's a certain uh uh Quirky has with his head that he can he does his head and it was so perfect for the chick, you.

01:02:12
Speaker 1: Know, Cora when he was was so great and then he looks.

01:02:16
Speaker 5: In the mess, it's just perfect. So then so then when he when winner says oh no, no, no no, and then you peek out from around the corner. My god, it was went absolutely crazy and I have to remember, you know, guys were like going, hey man looking it was really yeah, but so I it was a good ramp, and yeah it was. It was really great. Though is the fact that the underlying dynamic was just so so well.

01:02:53
Speaker 1: The message is so impactful.

01:02:55
Speaker 4: Yeah, it really is.

01:02:56
Speaker 5: Written it still works, That's what I'm saying. Yeah, that's an interesting thing that you just brought up. Will still works. What do you think I mean this show's got legs because you think the shows are still resonate with young adults, and that the core values of the show. I mean, you think there's still relevant given today's attitudes and mora's and morals.

01:03:20
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, I mean so far, I would say yes, overall, I think they are. And I also think, frankly a type of show like this that speaks to a certain type of morality without shoving it down your throat. I think a lot of people are missing that. I think one of the things we keep hearing is there are no shows like Boy Mets World anymore? Where are the shows like this? Why can't we get a show like this anymore? So, yes, I think it's another reason generation after generation are finding the show, not only because the it's still relevant to this day, that it tackled subjects like this without being cringey. I know that we have episodes downline, like when I put on the dress, it's going to be very cringey because it's just for a joke. It's just it's it's not played at all to learn anything. Eric doesn't learn anything. It's just being ridiculous. That stuff's going to be cringey. This stuff like Chick Like Me was you could watch, We watch it and we were all like, ugh, I wonder what this is going to be, like we haven't seen it in a while, and we all saw it.

01:04:14
Speaker 4: We're like, no, this totally works up still, so absolutely.

01:04:19
Speaker 5: Yeah. That's the thing about most Almost every episode has a laugh out loud moment that I just absolutely ented.

01:04:27
Speaker 1: You know, well, glad you said it. Yeah, because one episode that doesn't really have a whole bunch of laugh out loud moments is cult fiction.

01:04:37
Speaker 5: I was laughing, but not.

01:04:39
Speaker 1: This episode was wild. We've got Sean dealing with what we have to assume is a version of scientology, and then Turner is thrown into a coma and Alan says he's going to kill Jerry Levine at one point kill it has for sure. It has the least amount of laughs in a Boy Meets World episode up until this point.

01:05:04
Speaker 5: Good point, good point. You know. One of the things I don't like bring up the musical stings. I hate them. I think they're soap opery and they were not needed. They should you know, Ray brilliant, Yes, he overdid it, you know, and and and Michael didn't say no, so I I just maybe the network was saying we need more. I don't know, but I never heard that. I just know that that was raised proclivity and and uh to to over music. It sometimes tamp it down, Ray, tamp it down. You know, this is not about you, but uh, but those stings, I hate it, you know, I just did not like them. It was telegraphing the sentimentality, and I didn't like it at all. I thought, you've done the work. You don't need to, you know, sak over the head. Leave it alone. But that was that's my own really pet peeve on the show. Anyway, back to Cold Fiction, I thought Jerry Levine, Let mean, he's a buddy of Michael's in mind more Michael. He grew up with Michael in New Jersey, and uh, I met Jerry through Michael in New York and his wife Nina Tassler, who was ahead of CBS at one point, and they're just they were great people. We hung out in New York all the time together. So when Jerry was going to do this episode, I didn't know if he could do it. You know, I don't know what his take was going to be on it, and I thought he was not perfect because he balanced this this dynamic of being charming sleazy, but also you really seem to It's a very genuine at times because the kind of disarming thing about him and why I believe that that that Sean could like give him and that's why, you know, and I thought, and also real quickly, everything we gave you, guys, drama or comedy, we would we would throw the we would throw the curveball, the slider, we we we threw so much at you. You always delivered. You always found a way into it. And uh, without you know, over sentimentality or without being over dramatic, or without being too clownish or too crazy. There was a nice medium for the most part. And there's a couple of times I see things I go, well, that was a Michael oof, you know, and it seemed a little bit unnatural sometimes where this or that, but it was still funny, it was still great. But I always was amazed at how you guys always took what we gave you and and and rose to the occasion and cult fiction, you know. With the writer most it was probably the most difficult transition, I think, almost ane show of the season, because he had to go from this kid who's kind of like a little lost but still he's he's a rebel, he's this guy, is self possessed, he's cocky, he's this, he's that, And all of a sudden, he goes into this zone of of insecurity and low self esteem and no self worth and and then all of a sudd he's he's scubbled up by this this girl and brought to this this cult center, and he kind of finds a home.

01:08:08
Speaker 3: No, no, I mean he's he's in the cult for an hour and he's in hook Line.

01:08:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. But he has to take that journey in what we believe is an hour exactly.

01:08:19
Speaker 5: And what was wonderful about it because I knew that was always going to be the biggest challenge for him as an actor to try and figure out how to slide into that in a way that gave him the ability to be believable. And I thought he did it great because what you what you you see in him is in the beginning, he's very you know, he's distrustful, he's kind of like, you know, we still see the Sean, the Sean. All of a sudden, this girl has some sort of like magical spell on him, and once he gets the center, it's kind of like everyone's doing his name and he's looking around and he has this kind of beautific switch in his in his face that kind of goes, wow, they actually see me. They actually they're actually seeing me and in witnessing me. And that was to me, that was the moment that I went, Okay, this is how it happens. This is how it happened. Right. I thought I did it great?

01:09:17
Speaker 1: Just so did I. I thought I thought he was with what he had to work with for as dramatic as it was supposed to be. I thought he did a great job.

01:09:26
Speaker 5: I agree. And then the Turner, when Turner gets hurt. I remember the day, we remember the day we shot this writer, when you had to go there.

01:09:33
Speaker 2: I mean I remember the table read more than the day.

01:09:35
Speaker 5: Why well, I was just saying you, you know, you have such integrity as an actor, and and and when it wasn't feel truthful to you, or there was something that wasn't you know, you really had to believe in it in order to do it lots of times, and sometimes that you didn't have a chance to even process it because we were throwing things at you so fast, sometimes adjustments or this or that.

01:09:58
Speaker 4: But in this.

01:09:59
Speaker 5: Particular, and you had all week to kind of you know, you knew you were going to do this speech to him, and we knew we didn't want it to be you know, overly dramatic and whatnot, and and and we wanted you to have the freedom to do it the way you wanted to do it. Really, I don't think we ever gave you really a note ever how to do it. Uh. You in the runthroughs, you were kind of very you know, quiet about it, and you were very you know, you understood the material and you you were very you were on point. And I knew, okay, you know, when we when we shoot this thing, I know he's gonna I know he's gonna touch into more stuff. And you did. It was really beautiful because what you did was you you got the thing of oh god, damn man, you know I'm not going to have you anymore, you know it. It was really hutching to me. You really did a great job.

01:10:55
Speaker 1: Really, yes, he did.

01:10:56
Speaker 6: Oh thanks Jeff Man.

01:10:59
Speaker 5: You really did. And I think we only did two takes, you know, you did it two takes of that and the first take is what we used.

01:11:07
Speaker 4: So yeah, that was great, Oh man, really well done.

01:11:10
Speaker 1: Well, Jeff, after doing all twenty two episodes in season four, you only come back to direct us for three in season five. So in season true you have and then there was Sean and then a few other ones, and then you do season seven in season six and four in season seven and Lynn does two in that final season as well. Why where were you for most of season five? Where had you gone?

01:11:38
Speaker 5: Well, this is all right, Sherman and I went over. David Training directed this part oft called You Wish Jeanie John Nails and Harley Jane Kozak was the mom I dream of Genie, you know, contemporized with two kids, and and David trying to directed the pilot and it was it was okay, you know, it wasn't great. It was my favorite. And Michael said, I need you to go on the show. It's it's it's it's it needs.

01:12:23
Speaker 2: To keep the ship afloat. Please.

01:12:28
Speaker 1: Uh.

01:12:30
Speaker 5: It was the worst experience I think I've ever had. Oh it was. You know, when you deal with a genie, it gives a license to the writers to write anything they want because you can just go, you know, wiggle his nose or you know where it was.

01:12:45
Speaker 2: And in fact, they kind of have to write to deliver on the premise, you have to have big set pieces, and and.

01:12:51
Speaker 5: They had a dollhouse. They actually built a doll house for the gene to live in a life side. I mean, I mean that's right. I remember going to that set and he was in this dowhouse, you know, pink dowhouse, and this where he lived as the Genie, And I said, why can't he just live in a bottle? You know? Terway and so anyway, but this they all thought was cute and funny, and so I had to I had to create a new way of shooting a show. I mean I did that on Dinosaurs with two cameras, and then I had to do create a new way to shoot the show on a new wish and we shot it like a film show for the most part. And we had Jerry Vandyk who was hysterical. We had Jessica Walter who was hysterical. I mean, these were great actors, but the writing was I don't I don't even remember who's on the staff. They said from Sherman and I commiserating with each other. That was just they were just bad. And we did thirteen shows, or I did twelve and we're out. They didn't renew us. Thank god. It nearly killed me that that show nearly killed me too. I mean that with Dinosaurs nearly killed me because of the demands of the production. So where was I. I was over there, you know, dying after I came back and then did because Allen Myerson was on he directed most of the episodes.

01:14:03
Speaker 2: And yeah, he came back for he came in for fifth season and took over for the whole season.

01:14:08
Speaker 5: Yea anybody else And so Michael said, let's let's get this guy and here, he's a proven director, let's get him in here. So so then I, you know, I did, Uh. I came back after you wish was over, after I recovered and directed some some more boys, and then I was developing another feature film, and I was also I had we were you know, on other shows, and I came up with a pilot that then and Sue Page wrote called Zoe Bean and I was shepherding that and I shot the pilot of that and we were picked up for that.

01:14:39
Speaker 4: That became Zoe Duncan, Jack and Jane right exactly exactly.

01:14:43
Speaker 3: I was on that.

01:14:44
Speaker 5: Yeah, you were, yeah, and and so yeah, it was like that thing of you know, I was just off doing other things with the company, you know, and and so and then also we wanted to give Steve Hayfer and my sister and and uh and every Kevin Tracy. Uh yeah, yeah, we would get we wanted to give them a chance to direct. So you know, there was a revolving. It became more of a revolving to Rusty was directing. I mean it was it was great. You know, everyone got to come in leving directed four.

01:15:18
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, did we know at the end of season four that we were picked up for season five?

01:15:25
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay we did.

01:15:27
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, oh no, no, we were. We were a bona fide hit that point. I mean we were like we were, Yeah, we were. We were t g I F strong, you know. And then we put You Wish and everybody kept trying to tag a new show onto this evening and and and it.

01:15:43
Speaker 6: Just you know, teen Angel.

01:15:44
Speaker 2: It was it was magical stuff because because it was so that's why You Wish was created. It was like, let's try and yeah, all the other t j F shows had some magical character element, yeah, and.

01:15:55
Speaker 5: We had them. Was a was a great show as well. We had and that was with Connie ray And and that was fun.

01:16:05
Speaker 4: Yeah.

01:16:06
Speaker 5: I got to act on that show as well as as a Preacher. It was fun.

01:16:09
Speaker 2: But hey, Jeff, do you remember I have this memory that you were the one who helped Will pitch his movie idea for Winnie the Pooh to Disney? Am I remembering that correctly?

01:16:19
Speaker 3: No?

01:16:19
Speaker 5: I didn't do that. Oh you didn't, Okay, I didn't.

01:16:22
Speaker 2: And you don't remember who it was Will that.

01:16:24
Speaker 5: I thought.

01:16:24
Speaker 2: It was like during rehearsal, Will pitched this idea and you were like.

01:16:27
Speaker 5: You need to I remember that. Yeah, but I didn't. I didn't go into the room with the picture.

01:16:32
Speaker 2: No, No, I got him on the phone.

01:16:33
Speaker 4: You got him the meeting on the phone with somebody.

01:16:35
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

01:16:36
Speaker 2: You were like at lunch like, no, no, you have to take this seriously, and you got somebody on the phone, and then Will got the pitch meeting and then remember that.

01:16:43
Speaker 5: I thought with him to pitch it. No, No, I remember that. Yeah I did.

01:16:47
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, you were producing what was the movie?

01:16:51
Speaker 3: You were you were when you were going through you said you were you were creating it in their Films show.

01:16:55
Speaker 5: They gave me a deal there was a Paul up politics involved with show and post Quiz showed Jeffkatsburg owed me a film because I did him a favor on that film, and by you know, my credit, I was an actual producer on that and because I developed it and got the rights to it and everything else. And then Redford decided there were too many producers and asked me to take a co producer credit with with Dick Goodwin and with uh somebody else. Oh yeah, Gail Metrix. So we became co producers and I was the original producer, and then Michael Michael and I, you know. And then so when Redford said, you know there's too many producers, will Jeff take a co producer credit? When I went into you know, Katterbury said would you do this for me? I said, well, why should I do this? If I wins the Academy Award, I get an Academy Award, you know which I think it will. And he said, well, I know, I know you're the reason this is happening. You're the reason the movies here. You know, we owe you. I said, well, what do you owe me? He goes, well'll give you another film. I go, wait, another film? Anyway, if I come up with a good idea, he goes, but I will guarantee you to make it with you. So we we went ahead and I the next day he had he left Disney to go form DreamWorks. And yeah, so I got screwed. But anyway, but so they Anyway, I was developing this other film and it was a very It was a great film idea based on a true story of a black basketball player from the inner city of New York. It's true story that goes to live with the family in New Mexico and turns his life for him from being a you know, drug guy in the bad urban area to this white bread society in New Mexico and becomes an all star basketball player and college basketball player. And it's not kind of like Blindside, okay. And it was written by Takachi Buford. I'd hired him to write it, and it was it was really funny. As I outlined, we had a whole outline of the film. Michael loved it. We were ready to go because it's based on a true story. You better than the truth. So I hired takaishufor who wrote set it off. You ever see that film, it's of course Okay, So he uh, you know, was gangster, kind of black youngster, you know, film and stuff. But I thought it'd be a great sensibility to balance both the street kid as well as this this white bread society, you know, fish out of water. And so, uh, I got his first draft. You know, we went to meet New Mexico, we met the family, we met you know, everybody was wonderful. And then he turns in the first draft and he's got the gang coming from New York to New Mexico.

01:19:33
Speaker 2: Well entourage style, I would.

01:19:40
Speaker 5: He didn't want to write the white stuff. He didn't have no carite white Middle America. And he brought his gangsters into into New Mexico and it became a gangster film, and I just, dude, you know, so that it died at that.

01:19:56
Speaker 1: Well, wrapping up season four, looking back talking about all of these iconic moments and episodes, do you agree with us that season four is just the best. It's the best.

01:20:11
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, it it delivers on all all cylinders, it really does.

01:20:16
Speaker 1: And that thanks to you, guys, and no, it's so much thanks to you.

01:20:20
Speaker 5: And you know, everybody know, everybody did.

01:20:23
Speaker 1: Everybody pulled their weight. But man, we just we wanted to give you your flowers for this season, especially because you're right that certainly seasons one through three really laid the groundwork so that by the time we get to season four we know and love these characters so well. There's a shorthand, and we could get away with so much. But the things we were able to accomplish in short amount of time, in a short amount of episodes, just it truly is remarkable, and it's it ought for us especially. It is it stems right back to you, So thank you so much as always for all of your time and effort with us, not only today, but for all of the years ago in the nineties and all the time since then. You've still been such a mainstay in our lives and we love you so much, and every time we get to spend with you, we just end up raving about it for weeks and months afterward, and we can't wait for the next time. So let's not let it be too long again before we see you face to face another hug in person. And also, we'd love to have you back for the episodes that you direct in season five, so we'll be talking to you again soon.

01:21:24
Speaker 5: He you guys, I love you so much.

01:21:26
Speaker 4: We love you, Thanks Jeff, thank you. Bye.

01:21:41
Speaker 1: What a guy? What a season? What a show? Just films fills me with all the warm fuzzies.

01:21:49
Speaker 4: Yep, yeah, it really does.

01:21:52
Speaker 3: It's I had a horrible realization last night as season four came to an end that someday this is gonna end. Yeah, and we're going to have to say goodbye to two shows together. And I don't think that hit me until last night, and then I realized that you guys are on Grom's World. You've done it three times, so it's like, damn, yeah, well.

01:22:16
Speaker 6: The three of us will always be able to get together well.

01:22:18
Speaker 1: Of course, and of course never say goodbye.

01:22:20
Speaker 4: We'll do other stuff. But it's like the show will end, and it's we're gonna have to end again.

01:22:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.

01:22:25
Speaker 4: I don't like it.

01:22:25
Speaker 1: I don't be Our love keeps the show alive, will it?

01:22:31
Speaker 5: It does?

01:22:32
Speaker 4: And streaming in the streaming streaming with no residual, with.

01:22:39
Speaker 3: Very little residual. I got one the other day for nine cents. I'm thinking, can kuon?

01:22:44
Speaker 2: But I don't know where I'm gonna go.

01:22:47
Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening to this episode of Pod Meets World as always. You can follow us on Instagram pod Meets World Show. You can send us your emails pod Meets World Show at gmail dot com. And we've got merch.

01:22:57
Speaker 4: It's all downhill from here, Merch.

01:23:06
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be the downer you're on this podcast.

01:23:09
Speaker 3: I hope Season five is better than we think. See now, I've heard so many times that we have just hit our peak that I'm hoping that we're like, actually, this is not bad.

01:23:18
Speaker 4: That's what.

01:23:18
Speaker 2: There will always be moments. I think this is always going to be great moments. I think so too.

01:23:22
Speaker 3: I think so too.

01:23:23
Speaker 1: Pod Meets Worldshow dot com. We love you all, pod dismissed. Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by Danielle Fischel Wilfredell and writer Strong Executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman. Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor, Tara sudbachsch producer, Maddy Moore, engineer and Boy Meets World super fan Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram at Pod Meets World Show or email us at Pod Meets World Show at gmail dot com.