#306 - Brothers Osborne on their Radio Success vs. Ticket Sales + Why TJ Decided To Tell His Story + John on Taking a Break from Music for Mental Health

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Speaker 1: M. Welcome to episode three or six. It's a fantastic episode with brothers Osborne. They talked about it all radio success, ticket sales, t J telling his story John taking a break from music for mental health. I love these guys, love this talk. I thought I'd be pretty good because I know him. Ended up being great. I hope you guys get a lot from this. So that's coming up in a second. But as always, let us do the top five releases. I am most excited about this week. Number five. Nico Moon released a new song called small Town, State of Mind. Stay in my smalltown, Stay of Mind, small time, Stay in my smalltown, Stay in mind, good friends in the bottle of time. Whenever you roll up right on side that small time, stay in my small town Stay. Charlie Warsham released his Sugarcane EP. Here's a new song called hang on to that Time Instinct Times as you can hang. At number three, Dustin Letch he did put out two new songs, once called not Every Cowboy, and here's a clip of one that he played on my Twitch show on Time with Bobby Bones. It is Pasadena leven passive d we to we can find out where Stool found just we were needed right there and passid. Dan and Shay announced they're releasing a new album called Good Things, and today they also released the title track. Here is a clip of Dan and Shay Good Things Still if You'll n God friends so bad? When you make me I Love you? Thank and number one would like if awaiting my whole life for this. John Mayer recently released his new album, saw Rock. It's his first new album in four years. And by the way, even those albums four years we weren't real albums. They were just not that many songs, you know. Here is a new song called why you Know Love Me? Why are you Know Love? Why are you know Loving? Why are you know? Okay? Why you Know that Knows? Are the five releases I am most excited about. This week music news, Luke Combs released a trilogy. It's a Vine with Beautiful, Crazy and Better together as a side a side b Uh. There's Charlie Daniels Duets, which is Charlie Daniels and Friends. It's a Walmart exclusive. It's Scott Garth and Dolly and Paisley and Darius Brooks and Dunne. So that's out to a little big Town's got music out. Cheryl Crowe released strong Enough featuring Lucius Life from the Theater at the Ace Hotel. Peloton apparently is the best paying music streaming service. We talked about later in this show, like how much are they making for Peloton? Brothers Osborne. I didn't know this when I knew that, but who would have guessed it? The person that I guess the organization that pays the most is Peloton. They pay more per stream than any popular music service. Based on a twenty nineteen report, Peloton pays around three cents per stream, So there you go. They made three cents from the time I heard you. They've heard him twice, they made six cents off that. Peloton's contribution to music isn't that much. It's kind of probably why they can do it. I mean, if they had a billion people riding bikes, but they'd be making more money too. So Peloton is That's where it's at, and that's where I listen to my music all the time. When I go home, I just plugged in my Peloton and put on a class. I don't only do the glass. Vinyls Come Back is still going strong. Over nineteen million vinyl albums were sold in the first six months of this year. People kind of expected that to go away. C MT is set to honor the late Charlie Pride with a primetime special next month. CMT giants Charlie Pride airs August. So there's that. Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame class of one is announced. Toby Keith, Amy Grant, Ready, Aikin's Buddy Cannon, and John Scott Cheryl All We're announced to be in the Hall of Fame. Cold Play was inspired by a caveman and then wants to perform on the Moon. You know, they have new music out they want to play in the moon with the problem is that, you know, the moon's vacuum can't hear a sound up there. So some people would say they'd love to hear cold Play on the Moon. I do really like cold Play. So and Rihanna is renting out her Beverly Hills mansion for eighty thousand dollars a month. Holy moly, you can stay in there for eighty thousand dollars a month twenty dollars a week. That's three thousand dollars a day. Basically, it's a lot. That is a lot. There you go that's what's up, Brothers Osborne, that's next. Thank you guys in studio now with Brothers Osborne, which I was on my peloton. I don't know if either one of you guys ride the peloton. I don't even have I bought one. I don't. It looks great sitting in my house. But you understand the concept. Get on the people on sometimes your lives and I'm on and one of you guys songs come on and I'm riding along to it. Do you like, how does that deal get worked out? Because they got a lot of trouble for playing everybody's music, and now they can't play everybody's music. They can only play some. We have no idea what's going on ever? I mean, I don't, we don't know. I would wonder about that, but it can't be like the most like extravagant amount of money. No, No, just be probably the same as a stream like point. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, like, okay, let's go after him so we can make seventy. Do you know, I'm just like, just use it. I don't know. But it was a nice mix of music. It was like Drake and you could tell the girl was like nineteen and blonde and you know, kind of bubbly, and she was like, I just love Brothers Osborne. I didn't believe her, not that you guys aren't able to be loved, but she was going one after the other. It was like, I'm big, I'm a big Drake fan. Oh this is a little baby. I just love Brothers Osborne. And was this just a good sounded song? No, it's probably just a good sounding song. But that's what that's Our next album's gonna be featuring a little baby featured on every I don't even know, a little baby song I don't know features with a little baby, a little baby, little baby. Well there's all there's a little baby, and then there's d baby. Don't get him confused, because if you do, that's assaulting to both of them. Little baby, but I just assumed did not say anyone's name. Ever, I don't even do it in person. I wouldn't do it anymore. Meaning if I were to just have seen you around and I was like, I could think I know that guy's name, but I'm not gonna bet. I don't even know if I met him, and I'm not sure. Hey man, good to see you again. Yeah, what's about it? To see wrong with good to see you? You can't you can't tell everyone our trade secrets here. No, this is a Nashville trade seer that everyone knows about. And in fact, the good to see It is a very the Nashville Hello, because we we meet a lot of people here. We see people every day, and you know, especially when they're not in the right context, it takes your brain that compartmentalizes things a second reality they are. And um, I met Kenny Rogers, you know our I p I met Kenney Rogers a few years ago and he did good to see it to me, and I was like, that is amazing for a multitude of reasons. One, he did the Nashville Hello, the good to see you too. He doesn't know if he's ever met me or not, so he's so good to see you. Three, I am a thousand percent sure I had never met Kenny Rogers. That's awesome and he was super cool. I saw Mike Duncan, there's a big deal here in town. I saw him at like a grocery store and I my mind just wouldn't put him in a grocery store. And I couldn't remember who it was I've talked to him at thousand times. I think he's been in here, yes, and I know him. If I were to see at a show, I would be like, Mike, what's up, buddy? Because we were near carrots. I was like, I can't compute, thats not the same thing. Have you guys played yet? Have you guys done shows? We've done done some shows. We may yeah, we uh yeah. It was our third We just finished our third weekend out and it's been a lot of fun. We've a couple of them have been festivals, which has been a lot of fun. And then we just recently this past weekend did some of our first like headline shows, um and that's been really fun because we put a record out last year and uh it's it's one. It's obviously awesome to get back in front of fans again, but it's also the first time that we've been able to perform our new music to anybody and just kind of see what they're responding to. And not to mention, we've had some more singles out since last time we towards, so being able to add those into the set. It's been a lot of fun. And this year we know some people wanted to like dial it back a little bit and kind of get some of their money back they lost through the panemic. We did the opposite. We're like, let's lose more money. No, we we really try to step our our lives, show up this this time around. We always do. But obviously, as you grow, you're can only grow as fast as your budget allows you to. But this this time around, we were like, you know, I think we just really wanted to put on a show that just stood out from the rest. Considering everyone is going back on tour right now. So I feel really good about it. We've put a lot of work into it, but I'm excited for for the fans, especially the fans that have seen us dozen plus, you know, fifty. Some of these people have seen so many shows on like, how do you afford to do? I know, I feel self conscious? And there's someone like there's a particular Katie who I know we'll be listening to this at some point. She has seen nearly a hundred shows, and it makes you self conscious. You're like, you've heard the same damn bit and routine a hundred times? How can you find this interesting? I'm falling asleep up here. How can you find this interesting? You know what's great about music, and there's I mean a lot of great things. But as opposed to what I do when I torn, I do stand up, is that you guys can play. It ain't my fault for ten years. Yeah, if I work hard and I have the and I have a joke, and I've got four or five of them, but I'll do any I'll do a corporate gig steel because they they did never can watch before. But if I write a joke or I have a whole bit that's like three or four minutes and I've just died, I've cut it, just write dial, I got my my everything's down. Yeah. I can do it once. Yeah, that's it. You can never do it again. It is Although I have seen some comedians and we've had uh some friends of ours suit who go out and do that, and they will do like one kind of like okay, there's all the new material. I'm gonna do the greatest hit, Like here's the one that really made me famous. And it's still is funny when if you address it as the greatest hit, nothing I've ever done it's been great. So I'm like, there is a mediocre one that I worked out for six months. The only time I've I covered even covered a joke once. The first time that the opery hadn't had a lot of comedians on for a long time after because there was the whole nineties Boxworthy were stage there and they just did like a whole reel of the comedians and it was It's awesome, right, totally incredible. I'm like, where is that so bringing it back? So they had come to me. Sally Williams, who used to run the operation, was like, hey, we really want to get back into comedy and we know that one you're funny too, you can emplement a little music, and three you're clean. We don't have to worry about you. Because I love the operation. My grandmother made me. I didn't at first my grandmother made me. I was like seven, I was like, why am I watching this over? But but then you start have a real affinity. There's the TV show for the operation now, and so the first time I got to go on and do comedy, I went up and I did my whole set eleven minutes. You know, it's not like the operations a full half hour, but eleven minutes. That's a long content. Yeah, I mean I would normally do an hour right when I was doing theaters, but I and it's also a weird crowd because they didn't come to see me. Some of them don't even know who I am, and some of them are ninety they don't even know what I'm talking about. It feels the same way. I mean, it feels the same way for us when we play there. I mean, I love playing it for a multitude of reasons, but it can be a really hard crowd to play too. And at the at the very end, it's the only time I've covered a joke. It was I said, Hey, I said, for all you guys out there, like this is special for me because my whole life I watched The Operation, or I listened to the Opera, depending on when it was on TV on you know tien in or I said, and my grandmother, who is not alive anymore, and adopted me for a long part of my life. I said this. Her favorite comedian was Jerry Clower, and we would watch Jerry Clower on the opery that we've watched him, and he seems like he was on every month. And so I did my favorite Jerry Cloud joke and I did it, and to me, even though I didn't write that joke, that's the best freaking joke I've ever told because it actually it meant something to me. Yeah, well, you know what it's especially when you're a new artist out and you've got and you start playing songs and you get like your first single. It's kind of doing something and then you cover Hey Williams and everyone goes Bananas Park, you know, oh man. Yeah, well there's this great UM special special called Talking Funny and it's like Luisa k Jerry Seinfeld, Chris rock and head bass and um, Jerry Seinfeld said something that for me kind of resonated in a in a very strange way. Um. You know, a musician will get up, we'll go up and play a song, even if it's a new song. We have three roughly three to four be five minutes and we play the song right and then they decide whether it's cool or not. Where As a musician or sorry a a comedian, they're judged like every ten to fifteen seconds, so and it can really go off the rails. So if we do a song that was like wow, that wasn't really much, Well, let's just do it in my fault and we'll wring them back. A comedian, they're literally judged, judge, judge, So it takes a lot of a lot of really thought about that yet and once I feel like, once a comedian loses the room, they very rarely get it back unless unless and I'll say this because when I will do a theater fifteen to two thousand people, right and weren't a theater and they came to see me, and I know the first ten minutes they're giving me for free because they're just happy to be there. Yes, I can go out and just be like, what's up everybody? Yeah, they funny. There's always a mark between like eleven and fifteen where you gotta start to earn, start to earn that ticket. Sorry, And I will really hit him with the hits, the moderately decent stuff around eleven and fifteen, and then I'll start to sprinkle in some new stuff. And when it doesn't work, I have the one crutch that's comedians don't or I just grabbed my guitar and I play a funny and you can hide behind a guitar. You literally can't story in my life. I could literally I want to talk about the genesis of the group. Um, that's what because you guys haven't ever done this podcast here before. But I do want to talk about the genesis, which I know and obviously you guys know. But to a lot of my friends who love your music from kind of the outside edges, they're like, which one has the beard, which one doesn't? But you have the beer too, It's very obvious which one they're referring to when they say beard. I like, have a very very you know, tight beard situation, and John is so bearded that people just automatically think that I'm clean shaved. Honest to god, if you if I would have closed my eyes without looking at you and said who has the beard? Who doesn't, I would have bet money you didn't have a beard. People say the clean shaven one, and I'm like, I haven't shaved. Honestly, you guys watched the office at all. They're debating if Stanley has a mustache. If you would have done that with you and your beer, I would have said you didn't have a beer. Okay, comparatively speaking, though, if you were sitting there to Bobby, you would have a beer. But you're sitting next to me, and his is tightly, tightly shaven, mind's very loose beard. Let's go back, just, let's go back to the beginning of just you guys childhood, Um, and when you started to play music? Because John, you're older, correct, how much older? Two and a half years? Does that mean that you had two and a half years of music before TJ ever started doing music? Not really, not really. You know, our parents played in music and UM, it was just always around UM, and we both I don't know. I thought we both kind of got into it roughly at the same time. Probably roughly, but you know, I think, um, you know, really the thing that's kind of weird to think about. I was thinking about this the other day. Someone asked about your parents they play and I was like, yeah, they do, And it made me think about really the first time that both John and I really wanted to learn how to play and learn how to contribute music to any degree, it was simply just so we could join the family, mainly our dad and our uncle and our cousin who played, um, just at the kitchen table. I was like, God, if I can, because they wouldn't let us just come there and bang on a guitar and make nonsense. That you were like, if you learn how to play and you can come and play, then do that. So we're like, oh man, I can't wait to play at the kitchen table. That was like the that was the mark. Um and so that and then to really think about going this far, I mean you kind of dream about that. I think every kid does, you know, Um, but wow, I mean it's been such a long way, but it's that was really kind of the first thing that put that let the fire under us, which just simply so we could just kind of join the join the fai around the kitchen table. I remember when I just started playing guitar, and I started when I was around twelve or thirteen, and um, I all I wanted to do was play around the table, like he said, with her dad, our uncle Bill, and our cousin Johnny. And they wouldn't let me because I had to practice. And they were right, they said that we want you to practice, and you can't just thumb around. You have to be good enough to play. And then, um, that gave that inspired me to actually to be good enough to be able to play at the kitchen table with everybody that was starting Another thing it was really cool in that moment is both particularly our dad and our uncle Bill had originals that you know, our uncle Bill grew up in a band, um and uh he was adopted at a at a young age and we didn't get to um, my dad didn't even know him until really later in life. And when they met each other. They were both musicians and both wrote songs and all the same guitars, the same sidebar the nature or nurture ye who knows man, and a little bit of both. I'd imagine really crazy though, I mean honestly they had the exact same ovation and um, which is like funny now like no one has an innovation, no, but um so anyhow so that was the thing they would sit around. They'd play, you know, they cover Bob Seeger songs or could be George Jones and then they there in their originals and always thought, man, it's so cool like to have these original songs and um, they actually had some really good material. I mean so that I'm like, man, that'd be really cool. So was it the brother open that door, Mike? It is pretty pretty ball's hot in here? Um? Did was the thing where one brother picks up the guitar, but then you're stuck with the bass. Not really, because that happens a lot of families where the older brothers playing the lead. It's all right, Sammy, Yeah, yeah. I think it was like, you know, well, john splaying guitar, and I'm like, I got a lot of work to do to get up there. You keep doing that, I'm not going to try to catch up to. You both played a lot when when we were at kids, and we both ended up playing the bass at the same time. We actually I was the first like in our elementary school, Deal elementary school. I was a member of the first Deal Elementary Symphony Orchestra and it consisted of three violins. It was me, uh, a girl named m Emma Barrett was this is like a hundred years ago, and Dustin Dustin, Dustin Reid or something like that, and it was three kids. And I would just watch the video of it like six months ago, and it sounded atrocious, so bad. You can tell me really, you got ear plugs upon entry when we got it's so bad. And then on we both started playing the violin, and neither of us were very good, and the reason why we ended up starting we ended up on base because when we moved on to like middle school and uh, the teacher saw that we were tall. Basically, we're just taller than other kids, and our hands were too damn big for the violin, so he just put us on the base. Almost a similar thing of life. Well, they needed big players, so different big brother. They're like, we don't need we don't need another crabby violin. It's like, please just go over and then we are big hands. I was like, oh, this is cool and word and actually side not any musician it's listening will understand this. But a base is uh is tuned similar to a guitar. There tune for us in violence and fifth. So it made sense more sense to me. So you're playing music in school, you're playing music around the table. But did you two ever? Because I know you didn't move to TJ. You didn't move with John to Nashville. No, not the first not a first note. So that wasn't the plan for you. Guys. When you're sixteen, we're gonna be a dude. We're gonna be a duo, the greatest little of all time. Well that was our mom's plan. Now, she had a plan with with our sister Natalie. I believe you've met her. She's she's wonderful. I feel like she should run from mayor of Nashville because everyone knows her quite all the time. People are like, oh, wow, you're Natalie's brother, and I'm like, what do I have to do? Get some you know exactly anyhow. But um, so originally my mom her plan was that it would be John and I and Natalie, and that I would get on the microphone. I would say, Hey, I'm t J Osborne. I would say, and I'm John Osborne. And now they would say I'm Natalie Osborne. And together in unison we would say and we are the siblings. That was my mom's grand plan. And so we were like, we're going to stay far away from that idea. And so John came down. Was in a band called Kingbilly that had a lot of traction at the time, and um, a lot of amazing musicians and songs and in that band, and I was kind of doing my solo thing. Um. We were in a family band with her dad called Do Center Quarter. In fact, have a tattoo of my left arm that says two to five. A lot of people want to know what it means it's simply just a car ubic electra um And so our family band was named after that. And then you moved here. First I did, Yeah, how far I had to teach um? It was a little kind of staggered. UM. So I went to Belmont and I started in two thousand and then I want to say, you came in around two thousand and one or two, something like that. And yeah, so then you moved down here before you graduate, graduated high school. Ended up going to high school here for like a year or two, moved back to Maryland to graduate. The funny part about took me five years, so I know the math. I can see you wherever there, Bobby, you're like five. He loved high school so much he stayed stayed around for extra year. And the kicker there's I hated it so much that I didn't that I wasn't that attentive. So then it added an extra year. So I really like showed myself. They're like so much, you're getting an extra year of it. It is backwards, isn't it. The more you love school, the less you have to do. It doesn't make sense. So the um but the kind of side note, so when I was eighteen when moldteer TJ. So it was an eighteen or nineteen something like that. When I was a Bellmont t J had come to live with our mom and Nashville for a short period of time. But um, I had a dorm room like a triple at Bellmont, which was like unheard of, and my two roommates like dropped out right before the semester started, and I had this huge room to myself. It was amazing. And t J would have come just like sleep, you know, in the dorm room. And if we would go to like a Bellmont party, which at those days, and you'd be lucky if there was like four people and that was a Bellmont party. And um, t J. They all thought he went to school because he always had this idea. It was like sixteen, everyone, what's your major? And I would just tell them music business because I know no more questions would like boring, and um yeah, So he moved back and I was still like, I changed my major a bunch of times. Actually started in base um, because I got a scholarship and my parents were like, if you played bass, there's a lot more work for bass players. There's too many guitar players. Which is another interesting side note there is John was an incredible upright basis. I mean he actually went to Bellmont Wanta Basse Scholarship, played the big yeah yeah like flipping stuff. He played by glass with the Bottomore like the Bottomore Symphony. Even um they would have this where they would get kind of the top chair people in the state to come join them for some concerts. And John was, you know, it was one of the one of the kids they picked out on high school to come up and play with the Botmom Symphony, playing up right basis. Thank you. I was told total nerd, but that's what I did, and um, but I didn't love it, you know. So when I went to school, I was like, man, I just I'm not loving this thing. I really want to play guitar, kind like you're talking about Grand of Opry and you were kind of made to watch it and that took you a minute to love it. That's how we were with the bass and then um, eventually I I changed my major to guitars. I love, I really enjoy playing. This is where my heart is. And then I swish my major us a business, wish it back to guitar. And I'm like, man, I'm like four years in, I've got like five hundred hours or credits later. I I there's no way i want to graduate. And I'm already like doing it. I'm getting calls to go play. I'm traveling, you know, four hours, making like a hundred bucks and being like this is great. And UM, so I've bailed from school. But around that time, t J came back after he graduated high school, and then that's when we both moved here. So he had mentioned this band, King Billy that I was in. Um, one of my best friends from college, Josh Matheny, who's played on like a bunch of hit records as a recent as great debro player. Um, we joined a band. Charlie Worsham was in that band, and a bunch of other really really great musicians. Um, and we end up getting a publishing deal. T J and I at the time had been writing a lot of songs off to the side. The King Billy, the band I was in, cut a few of those songs. So he got signed to the publishing deal to the same publishing company. About a year or two later. Quickly what happened because now King Billy lives in like Everyone's Mind is one of the greatest bands that should have been massive because of the success of this individual char Yes, and so everyone's like I saw them once. It was the summer. I mean, it's like this legacy. It was an incredible band. I mean I remember it was like, yeah, it was the show to go and see what would happen? Why did it not happen? I guess, you know, I don't know. I could give I could try and give you a hundred reasons as to why things do and don't happen in this industry, and I would probably be wrong every time, And so much of it is just being around the right people at the right time the right songs. I mean I listened to the songs. I'm like, yeah, they were really really good songs, and some of them really great, but maybe they just weren't, you know. I think we were pretty musico about things like we're all like way too smart for own good when it when it came even the term music, I think it's probably for most people said, yeah, that's like you know, when you're you're so musical that it's just like only nerds would like it. Yeah, yeah, it got there. Um, and I don't know, man, I don't know. I wish I could give you an exact reason. Timing is everything, you know. I mean, Bobby, you know you've seen amazing and you were such a supporter of new music and new artists. You're very rare in that way. Um, and you've seen it firsthand, like this is amazing, Like I can't wait to see this thing blow up. And two years later, five years later, nothing happens, and no one knows. The one thing that is like really interesting now in retrospect is obviously everyone was like, how did this band on take off? And you know, I think now, I think looking back, for probably most of the people in the band, I mean particularly us, it's like, well we have this would have never happened. And certainly as you look back different And at the time I was doing solo stuff because John was in an established band in town, like but really outside of the bands that were playing nationally, super famous. They were the biggest band in Nashville, and I, um, it just was like, you know, I need to do my own solo thing. John's at the time it was really well known as a great guitar player, and I didn't really want to, Um, kind of wrest on his laurels or whatever or write his coat tails. So I I wanted to just make a name for myself, and so I'd go out and perform John a lot of times would join play guitar, and people always commented on just the two of us together. There was something that we didn't really notice because we just played together our entire lives and didn't feel necessarily that's special to us. And but people kept saying it over in time and time and time again, like the two of you is something You've got to do something together. Um. And then once um, we decided to do that. I mean within a year we were assigned to Capital Records. I was watching the Hot Nathan's Hot Dog eating competitions. You guys have to see any of that at all, any clips. I don't, but I find it very fascinating. Yes, before the hot dog part, before the Joey Chestnut eats seventy this name. Yeah, there's a competition that cannot be They drink a gallon of lemonade and who drinks the gwlln letonade the fastest before they eat the hot dogs. Well, one guy did both competitions and they got the guy who won the lemonade also didn't win the hot dog, but also drank the gown lemonade one. Then when Nate and finished fourth, FIFA a superhero. My point is, and you're gonna see he probably weighs like eighty pounds. This. People somehow are like, what is going on? What I saw John just do with a bottle of water is what the guy did with the lemonade. Somehow would you get John on the bottle of water over? It's like he took one. It's like he took it up, made one swallow and the whole thing was gone. I was wondering where the ore hydrated my friends. I don't know. I just love water. This drives Lucy and my wife, Lucy sla you played before. It drives her crazy about how much I love water because she hates water. What is her to hate? It's amazing, Like it's cold and it's hydrating, and she's like, she sees how much I like watern't She gets so annoyed. She thinks I'm doing it to just pick. Lucy doesn't drink much alcohol, so I think if she down like fifteen beers the night before, thank you, and I'm just consistently hung over. I was listening to t J tell the history by going solo, but over on the side, I just I could. I was like there, but in my part of me was going, that's the weirdest, that's like the the best, the most solid water drinking I've ever seen. It's it. Let me let me talk this and I've told this story with you guys around. But for anyone that's listening new to this, because this is a whole different podcast that goes a lot of different places. The first time that I saw you guys, I had been dragged to what they call a radio show boot camp. It wasn't about country music. Heck, I wasn't even in country music. I was. I had built my own syndication company and I was doing pop and hip hop. But I was getting trouble because I would put dirks on William like why are you playing county music on pop radio? Kind of what it happens now. Just on the other side, we'll bring in, I'll bring in somebody and they're like, why are you bringing in? For all lot of country, I just always knew what I liked. It didn't matter to me really what format at what most people I think people are too right. But I was over there doing that and we're in this theater and I was ready for some other you know, Jabron need to get up and talking about something in radio that I was lame, and they were like, all right, before we go, we got these two guys want to show case to you. I think it was Chicago. It was Yea, and they were like, I'll never forget. This is one of the most awkward moments in our Brothers Osborne. And I was like, music, like I'm trying to like and I also don't know if you recall this, but they said Brothers Osborne. And then the guy dessides in that moment to change the batteries and the microphones. I'm like, why didn't you do this like ten minutes ago? Dude, you're kidding me. So we had to stand there on stage where everyone has been they had clapped, finished clapping five minutes ago, and he's changing one by one of these batteries. I was like, oh my god, I could kick you straight off the stage right now, and uh, let me started performing and no one really cared. Can I say another thing though about that? I found really bizarre about that, since you worked in different like formats and radio. Why are the property of people so insanely arrogant? Like I feel like a lot of them starts, but but I find like these people, you know, like I feel like it's probably unusual in country, like you actually do know most of not all, all the country artists that come through here, but they always pretend like you listen to a pop station, They'll be like, oh, yeah, I was hanging with my boy Drake, and I'm like, I guarantee that you maybe just saw him in and eat and great and it's so weird and they're like the most and that that thing. I found it almost like unbearable to watch these people co exist together because you have the country people who were like really cool and hanging out and some of them have their their egos, and then all the pop people were like, screw the country guys, even though I'm like, these guys have stations that are like five times the size of yours. I don't know why that why that happens, but it's weird. Culture. The answer is culture. You are in the pop world taught to look as cool as you absolutely can't even if you don't have it in the country world. And I find this with myself too, because I'm in California lot working in the country world or the Nashville world, or the South or what however you want to use. You know, we are taught. Hey, even if you are cool, kind of scale it back a little bit because nobody gives a crap. Nobody does. So it's it's basically that that's the difference pop radio versus Los Angeles versus Nashville his country right here. It's when I go and I'm shooting American Idol, they think that I am, first of all, showing up with a haycy, you know. But they're also like, he's just the greatest guy. He's just a And it's like, I'm like everybody else here. You know, I don't get an award for being the greatest guy. I'm a good dude, but you gotta be good dude around here. You don't survive. Yeah, I prune the bad dudes here quick and so yeah, and they're like, oh, he's just the greatest because there if you don't show up with an entourage, even if you can't afford it, that's and that's anti that culture that they promote. So that's it was such a weird observation that you saw. That's how it is here. If you show up with an entourage, you everyone's laughing at you. Yeah, everyone's like rolling their eyes. I mean that's like, in the same way that Vince Gill, arguably the greatest singer and songwriter musician of all time of all genres, shows up by himself to like an event and where's his lanyard around his neck with his name on, just to make sure that everyone he can get backstage to a place he's playing. And then he's just cool and then he packs up his own guitar and walks off and drives his own ass home. I'm like, if he can do it, anyone can do it, right. I Mean, I saw a Stapleton drive up to a show once in his old truck in Nashville, get out there like hey, I'm Chris, and they were like, oh, you are him, and they just layed the lit him that he just literally stables and drop his old truck, parked it behind the rieman and walked in the back just to do his show. Yeah, And I was like, but yes, it's a culture. People in that pop culture have to act cooler than they are people in this culture have to act less good? You really see it too. At the Grammy Awards, I feel like it's so funny once again you'll see someone from country walk in and everyone's like, oh, this hokey you know s ob Meanwhile, I'm like, this dude sells like ten times the amount of tickets. You do, like, yeah, you're not that cool, Like just chill, you know, just just have fun. Why is it such a you know, it's weird. They're like, oh, wow, they're so nice. Shouldn't you just everyone? And I felt that way too early, but now I just take it. I'm like, I'm the nightsest guy because I would go to meetings where and I didn't realize that it was so count or that culture, but I would go to meetings and pitch TV shows, not for me, because I produced a couple of shows, and I would go and I'll be like, I go meet I met with Less before I got in trouble, I wouldn't met with Less Moonves who was the president of CBS and all his people. And I showed up by myself at the gate and I just you know, took an uber got out and they were like, you're here by yourself. Where's it waiting for your team? I was like, I'm the team and they were just so shocked by it, and they said, they verbally said, this never happens, nobody comes alone. This is still refreshing. And I went, oh, I will not do this forever. So when I go, and that's what I would have done anyway, I go by myself and I show I get a little backpack on, and I'm like, hello, guys. But they're like, you're the nicest guy. I'm like, I'm not. But it is. It's it's a definitely a culture thing. But you guys grew up where you grew up in Maryland. I have to think felt like the South compared to its compared from New York and Boston in a place where I don't want to. I think it's it's interesting, and I think it's probably a lot of why our music is the way that it is. Is we It's like to the Northerners, we are just like these red knecks down where we're from, and then people from the South treat us like word of these Yankees, and it's kind of like we're in kind of everything. No one really wants to claim us. I'm not really sure what's going on, but it is a very like homogeneous thing where I do we do feel part Northeast and part Southern. It's really really strange. That's funny you say no one wants to claim you, because I felt for a while, because I'm not just saying this because you're here. I've been fans of you guys since the first time I heard you. I was just like, love you guys. And I think I think even I would tell you guys that i'd bring you on the show, and you play stuff and you've been very supportive. And this isn't me. I don't want to her mailbow patting myself in the back, but my point is is that I felt like even the format country music did that to you for a minute to not but they're like a little too rock. And then I'll be like, now there's a little two country where you kind of were in that same spot where no one wanted to claim you. Exactly did you feel that way? Still? Still? I think you know. The thing is is that we've realized I think there's a lot of a lot of fans out there who are the same um for whatever reason, and it's actually been Now that we are where we are, I think we've done really well touring because of that, and we've been able to make a lot happen off of of of comparatively, um, not a ton of radio success, and I think obviously to a new artist, we've had a we have had a decent amount of radio success, but we've gotten a lot done with with with not much. And uh. And to to come full circle, though, you mentioned something and we were kind of heading there with your story talking about that that radio similar thing that was extremely bizarre and I've told you this before, but um, we just got to meet you. I think you were new to country, so everyone was like, I don't know about this guy. Know, it's like fresh blood. Everyone's like, and you're immediately coming into like one of the biggest like slots in radio. Um. But you sat there through the entirety of our performance. Most people could care less that we were playing. There was very few people in the room that paid attention. And I will always remember remember that you um attend uve to the entire thing. Whether it was because you felt incredibly sorry for us, I'm not really sure that probably thank you you talk about it's you know when you say we haven't had, as compared to new artists, a lot of radio success. It's funny because there are some songs that will hit number four but feel like a number one with some artists, right not even know you guys specifically, but urban will come in and I think, like Gonna Fly or something was never a number one? Right, Well, He's like, you know, but it feels like a number one because people were I feel like, because I had to look at like the chart to see where you felt like you guys get more credit for having radio success because it feels like a lot of your songs were bigger than maybe numerically they were getting. It's really yeah, and you are right the way, there's a really kind of a one of my favorite sayings amongst radio promos people, as they always say, not every hits the number one, and not everyone number one is a hit, and you know, it is weird and John and I have just racker brains all the time thinking about that. Some artists have a bunch of number ones and you can't remember them, and then some people have hardly any number ones, but you remember all of their material, and I don't know why it works. That way. But I definitely feel that way for us, and that was why I really particularly missed playing in front of a crowd for a year and a half. Is for us, like a song like all Night, we felt like that would be a big hit. It was, it did okay, But now that we're out playing it, it's like you would have thought the song was was that number one for a month? I mean, it's people go bananas for it now. It was really hard for us too. I think it went to like twenty on the charts or something like that. That that was that felt like, it's like with this rejection. But usually John and I don't pay a whole lot of attention to that because we're seeing it live and we're like, okay, it's working. But now that we are um back at it, I'm like, okay, now I get you know, what what we do? Why we do what we do because it works? Uh. And it was extremely hard for us in the pandemic to just only be able to look at a chart position that was the one. Again, who knows what chart I'm looking at here? I think this was maybe media base. Yeah, okay, So All Night was one of the ones that I specifically pulled and was like this thing was only in the twenties. Here's a clip of All Night. Another one was and I bet you that it just lights up a live show. It ain't my fault. Yeah, I gotta imagine hands come up and that, oh yeah, every night it is. Well, yeah, I gotta imagine people hit this song as hard as any number one live. Well. Yeah, the thing is our biggest which does very well, Our biggest song on UM the chart position wise or whatever was stay a little longer, but people come. The majority of the crowd the song they're waiting to hear is this one? I mean, is it ain't my fault? Yeah, that's the one that they call for the most, you know, stay a little longer. It was being our only number one it UM. People love that song, but they stay for all night. They want to hear it, but they stay for that. And right now we're onto our current single, I'm Not for Everyone, and we're it's charting, we're doing pretty good, but we're like, hello, can we like can we get moving here? Like this? Were still just like hanging in the forties, like what's going on? But now that we're going out and we can play it and people are already responding like we're playing um a hit song. It's like, okay, it's just that there's some there's other things that play here more than than just a chart position. It's a huge part of what we do, but it's not the only thing. And it can be can it can drive I think it even artists that have lots of number ones. If you just look at a chart, it really will just eat you from the inside out. It's really frustrating, especially from like the forty two to thirty one spot that's like the swampy no man. So you're just trying to climb out and if you can get out, you got a shot. And then if you're looking at the chart, especially being in this business now for as long as we have, it's like we know nearly everyone that's on the charts. When your friend jump you, you're like, oh, I'm canceling dinner. I think it all comes down to like what's your what Like what's your own metric? You know? And there are people that live and die by the chart. Um, And that's fine. If that's your metric and that's what you base your success on, that's fine. That's that's how you want to do it, and it's great. I think for us, we have to base our own success off of multiple metrics. Um. One of them is how well we're doing on radio, but most importantly, like t J touched on earlier, is how one, how many butts are you put in seats? And to how much fun are they having? And how much are they have? Much fun are they having during that song? Can you feel the energy? And we have to go off of that metric. You know, we've We're very grateful for how we've done on country radio, considering that we do sound different, um, and it has helped us immensely. But if we only hung our hat on just the chart, we would lose our minds, which is honestly why I don't even look at it. I mean I don't because what the hell can I do? I mean right, I'm not gonna call a radio promoter or some guy up and be like, hey, can you give me that five spins? That's what our promo teams for. It's just gonna drive me crazy. But every time they do play a song, it is a little advertisement for our band. And there's also this really strange disconnect with radio. And as John said to me, I think the ultimate just stat is just tickets. You sell tickets, and um, there are people like Luke Holmbs who have lots of number ones, can sell a lot of tickets, and then there's people that like Stapleton who doesn't have a ton of radio success, but we'll sell out everywhere he goes Casey Musgraves or like an artist like Eric Church where he has radio success but not as much as you would think for someone who sells as many tickets as he does. And that's the thing for me where I'm like, you know, where you look at Miranda Lambert, you know a guy will round on tour with her, I thought, to get all these hits and the same thing for her. She doesn't have a ton of number ones, but let's all the people who have a lot of number ones can't sell seats. That's my fun game and I think we gotta go. It's a good but anyhow, but the and that's the kind of also the thing like the arrow that we lived in is amazing that I can tell you firsthand that kind of your radio helps sell tickets and helps blow you off. I mean, we stay a little longer. When that was a hit, it was night and day what our shows did. Um. But at the same time, there's so many other ways that there's and it's in some ways it's exciting and otherways it's also exhausting because they're like, now it's like, we gotta get thongs on the streaming services, and then we gotta do things to promote here, and then we's so there's so much to do, so many angles, and if you ignore any one of them, you're really it's it's it's I don't know if you're um kind of um. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this that that I can say to your fans something clean, But you're an idiot basically if you ignore any of those, well, I haven't learned the TikTok dance yet to your new song, So if you guys want to, it's not happening now, you guys, I guess that's why I haven't learned it. We should go a TikTok for you to sit stand still like everyone can do this. Yeah what um? So the tour we're not we're not for everyone. Yes, we're not for everybody. Everyone, We're so did you name because it's always your name? The song and the record, after the song, after the tour, and what order did that happen? And did you name the tour this because you really felt that or because it was a good song, or well, a couple of different reasons. I mean, you know, you we know, I don't know. We titled the record of Skeletons because honestly, it's the song, the song Skeletons on that record, But defined I think the record is kind of the center piece. It's one of the keys. Was it the first one? One of the first ones were and um, and then we recorded I'm Not for Everyone. It was one of the last songs, if not the last song that we recorded. We thought we got one more day, let's just do this song. And I'm like, we're thinking, man, I'll sing a verse. That might be kind of cool. It'll just be different. It'll never be a single, but the fans will like it. And then um, we put the record out and then people started freaking out about this song in particular, and I think that has a lot to do with the message. I mean, you look at the times that we're in now and everyone is claiming you know who they are and this is what I do. And also like coming to terms with the fact that you just can't please everybody, especially in two thousand one. So we felt the traction of the song, so we decided, you know, we got to put it out and then us, um it is a bit of our Montrail. We are accepting that we just are not for everybody. You look at our songs, getting the twenty at best for the most part, and then um getting to Kneel and Travis, who are both a very unique, very awesome left of centeral artists. It's just kind of worked. The whole message seemed to come together at one time. I wish I could say that we were smart enough to see in the future like that, but we're not. And it's just but we saw how the thing was shaping up when we took advantage of it. And I think it is one of those things that you that John and I wrote it from the perspective of of this is how we feel, and to our surprise, so I think nearly everyone feels that way, you know. Whenever I wrote So, I was some very personal things in my first book, and I thought I'm gonna share some stuff that's extremely vulnerable, and a lot of it had to do with either the drug addiction my mom had before she died, or a lot of the really bad decisions that she made that influenced me, and that I loved her, but it was a very tough relationship. I mean, hex she got pretty much fifteen right, and my dad laughed, so she had to. But I was going. There was a lot of stuff, and even when she reached her breaking point, she did some things that I know she wouldn't be proud of, but because drugs had a taking control of her. And so I wrote and then that I was trying to tell the story of someone who had been through that, not through her side of it, but through mine. And I've never had a drink of alcohol and never touched a drug because I've been so scared of it. I wish I could. I mean, and that, to me, the one thing I want to do is relax. I so um. But I wrote these stories and I thought, man, other people are gonna feel sorry for me. You're gonna tell me to shut up, but they're not going to understand. And I put it out and what I learned is and I say this because you just expressed the same thing to me. What I learned was I never felt so welcomed or like I was included, until I felt like I was so not included. I thought, this is my story. No one's gonna understand, nobody's gonna relate, nobody's gonna feel like me. Um. But it turns out that just because people aren't screaming about it doesn't mean they're not feeling it. Yeah, exactly, And that you know when you say we're not for everyone, we do. That's how I felt about me. But I would be doing a mean greet somewhere, you know, we'd be, I'd be doing so come up. I's like, you know the story about you know that that touched me and I felt that. I felt that severely when I came out. It was you know, I thought I didn't know how it would be received. I know some people would be supportive and some people would probably hate. But I think the thing that was really um one of the most um like recharging things of it or whatever or inspiring things to me were the parents and stuff being like, hey my kid, parents of other kids, yeah, are being like this is great. You know I've always I was getting a lot of that kind of stuff of just people who themselves weren't gay, but we're really close to someone who was, and this felt like just like a relief for them, and um, and that yeah, so I know what you mean. It was I didn't expect that and it was one of the coolest experiences I've ever felt. Did you feel more love? And you just said this, but I just want to hear this from you again because I did. Did you feel more love than you expected? I did? And you know I'm and I've talked about this, um before, but is uh. I absolutely felt more loved than I expected. And I even feeling the love from people that I knew loved me. Um, it was. It just was so different. It was so overwhelming, and it's the thing I wish everyone got to experience, because everyone has loved more than they realized they are. And the kind of sad part is there's a lot of people don't talk about how much they love someone until they've died or something really true. Magic um, And you know, it was a difference of just like someone you know, it's like I compared to someone just leaves like all right, all right, love you man, see you later, as opposed to like someone grabbing you by their shoulders and being like I love you. Like it just was like, Wow, it's the same word, but it just hit in such a different way. Um that I just thought in that moment, wow, like just for this alone to feel this is um. It said something I wish everyone could feel at some point in time. Why at that point in time, like do you have a conversation like let's just do it now where you finally like, don't I just feel like telling people? Well, yeah, I mean I always wanted to come out, and this was a huge um hurdle from me because I was always really really afraid that I would look opportunistic, and so I never wanted it to never wanted it to be anything that would just not here here here, we need some publicity or whatever, um. And so in order to do that, I always felt like I need to do this. At the height of my career and then through the pandemic, I'm like, yeah, you I just really one was kind of the things that were important to me were very simple things, things that I've had my virtually my whole life was doing the same sitting around fire or having in some drinks, just you know, chewing the fat with people. That was I mean, the things that I was still having the same that were fun for me, and I'm like, I can do this, you know. When I when I was broke, I was having doing these same exact things, you know. So I just felt like at that point, like and then also, who who knows when you're at the height of your career, And so then the other fear was what if I have to you never know that you have passed the height of your career until you're on the way down, and then if I come out then it's still which just seems like I'd be jumping the shark to people. And so I just felt kind of stuck in this weird thing of like I'm unsure the perfect time. And then finally, just one day, I just thought like I gotta do this, like and I gotta do it now, and I don't want to go back to work to where I just did have distractions again, like I need to do this now where I can focus on it. And and the other thing too was I want to be able to build my Why would I not want to get to the height of my career being just completely open about who I am and what I am and John and I are really pride ourselves for just being who we are. I mean, hell Alard's where I'm not for everyone. It's kind of like their mission statement, so to speak. And so at that point I was like, it needs. I don't know that there ever is a perfect time, and there really isn't in your brain until you do it, and then you realize that was the perfect time. It was wild about that day, uh is that that morning was when the Morgan wall and stuff happened. And here I I go into I wake up thirty in the morning and clicking clicking to click, and I'm like the Morgan wall and stuff, and I'm getting hit by everybody because if somebody wants in this format, and I have to be careful now too, which I never thought would be the case with me. People just want to sound bite out of me and they're like, what do you have to say about Morgan Wallon? What do you have to say Morgan wall And I'm like, god, dang man, I don't know. I just saw this. I need And so I get on the air that morning and because I don't think your story came out until the literal like eight thirty or nine o'clock that morning, which was also interesting because I hadn't even read the article until it went live for everyone else. So yeah, it was intense. It was an intense moment when the fun they went out. I'm on and I'm like, i gotta say about Morgan Wallin because I'm getting beat up about it. I'm gonna say how I feel. And no one has said anything because everybody's just kind of scared. They're all like, I don't want to say the wrong thing either way. So I get on and I'm like, all right, guys, here's the deal. He's gotta go away for a little bit, fixed himself, get he gets to come back. That was my message, like we don't cancel people, like, we don't need to cancel people for anything unless you heard a kid, you heard an animal, or are you're a really really bad person. Yeah, I said, We're not going to cancel him, but if you don't think he needs to go away and at least like come on, I said, I like Morgan. Morgan has been here, He's been over to the house heart. Yeah. So I'm dealing with this and I'm catching it on both sides. Because I'm the sensible one. I'm not canceling him. So canceled canceled country artists are hitting me up, going, I can't believe you do it. We know, the canceled artists and the people that are like no, he and I just being sensible was so tough because I got both sides. Then your story comes out, and I mean, I know you were gay, I did you know, But for me it was big do you said it? Because I was finally I would get to talk about it. And I went on the air and I mentioned it, and everybody's like talking about Morgan wall and who cares? And in in in a way in both ways like I felt irritated and great at the same time. Great that people weren't like, we need to hear because somebody's gay, because I just did a show called The Talk where they were talking about, you know, somebody being gay, and I was like, wouldn't be great if somebody was gay and that was you don't have to announce it. It's just part of life, and you know, and yeah, and it would be especially great for people who are gay. You know, I would love not to talk about it. And that's the weirdest thing. I have only verbally come out to anyone at this point. I mean, it was like, I mean maybe kind On one hand, I just people just kind of found out, like you know, I mean, hell A was extra neighbors with Amy, and I've lived there with my boyfriend in that house, and I'm sure it was not hard to figure out after amount with any certain amount of time that we were together and so um. And then it was kind of this really intense thing because I'm like, when I'm about to come out to everyone and it's just awkward. It's a really awkward thing to do. It's it's rarely in context with anything that's being discussed amongst your friends. It's a really it's just a strange. It's just I don't really like to shock people either, you know. It's like I guess what you know, I don't. That's just not how I am. So I've always felt like so in some ways it was kind of relief to be able to just do it all on one thing. And the other thing it was relieving for me too is that I felt like it was kind of this burden for people that did know that felt like they didn't want to talk about or they could talk about it, or felt weird, can we talk about it? I'm like everyone in the room knows, like, you know, it's fine. I didn't really care all that much, but I felt like it was a relieving moment for them too, because I feel like it was unfortunately, um it was. I guess Mike crossed Barris so to speak, but I think there was lots of people who were, um, kind of felt the stress of that. Well. My my point was I would have liked that morning to have spoken about representation because I think it's so important where there. You just want to see somebody that is similar to you doing something great. Then you feel like you can do because I even me, growing up a poverty kid, I didn't see people like me doing cool things, and so I like to be that for them, and I like to do so I wanted to have that conversation and they were like, that's not for today talking and I was like kept hearing people who are like upset that you're like, oh, Morgan wall and stole your thunder and and I was like, this wasn't about getting attention, you know. So I was like, I truly didn't care. If anything. I thought it was kind of a good moment to see that the variety of what country is going through at this moment. I mean, to have that on one hand and then this one the other is just like wow, what a time for not only country but just kind of cultural things happening. UM. And I think for me it was just speaking about from my own experience and doing that is I think a lot of people just really think that, Yeah, both country fans and country artists that were just all these like really narrow minded you know, um Neanderthals or whatever they think, I'm not really sure, and then to to kind of really be part of this group of people that I think is incredibly diverse, more than people realize. And and it's only really recently really becoming that way, but I think there's a lot of country fans out there who have never really been able to have, um, to really be acknowledged that much too. And that we've noticed that people. I mean, you see it really especially with with like Kane out there and and Mickey, Jimmy Allen, these people that that now all these people of color haven't success. We see it at our shows, people of color, more people of color showing up. You know, before they loved it alone. They just felt uncomfortable, They didn't feel like they belonged um in the community, but they do. If you get a cold, does your voice get deeper? I don't have a cold, if that's what you're wondering now, if you did it does get deeper? Oh? Yeah, how I don't know you ever do voice Did you ever try to do voice over stuff? You know? I just really only kind of started talking about it and then about just doing it just mainly for fun. I mean, I can't imagine there's a ton of money in it, but I um, but recently someone told me that like pretty much every person in entertainment has been trying to do voice evers now because there's been so little work, like but now they do it all from home. Then I'm like they're like, no, we don't need more, just just just sink please, Well, let's not let it be lost on. This is like I would say, this is the Lady A Effect where Charles Kelly is ten feet tall, so you don't realize Dave Haywood's like six two or six. And I say that about you because John, you have a deep freaking voice too, but you're just not quite right down there. I mean he had a lower voice than me when we were kids. I mean, I was in puberty and his voice was lower than I didn't even hit puberty puberty yet it was like, what you done here? You had an Adams Apple at five? What the hell is going on? I did? One time I got in trouble at school for some like silly thing. I was just kind of a class clown. And then I was able to get home in time to intercept the phone call and they thought they were speaking to my dad, and I was like, your son today, I'll deal with it. Tell me John about when you play? Is there something that you do see because you're so proficient? And I and I ask in this is And I don't mean to be insulting because sometimes people will say, hey man, you're pretty talented, and I get insulted by that because I'm not talented. I work hard. Well, there's you have to have both. You have to have talents, nothing without without working hard. So I ask in the way of naturally, did you have a gift that you felt early? Do you are you able to interpret playing or sounds sonic anything different than people you even play with? Like what is it about you that makes it special? Um? Well, I don't want to say that I'm special in any regards not you. Yeah, it's special, um or it because it is kind of binary when it is it in you. But honestly, it's a It's a couple of things like I picked up on guitar pretty quickly, quickly, um, But on top of it, like I loved playing, and I loved the process and um. I remember watching the video with John Maye a couple of years ago, and I wish I had thought of this a long time ago, and he was saying, what makes people great is they have to love the process of getting there. And there are a lot of people that have natural ability, but they don't like the process of working at it. And I think more important than natural ability is working hard at it, because you can have someone there's just a little bit of talent um and they can work their ass off and then they will get there eventually. Um. And I've seen just the most natural musicians. I used to teach guitar when I was in high school, and then some of these kids could pick it up so fast, but then they just wouldn't work hard at it. So I genuinely loved learning. I love reading, I love knowledge and just soak it all in and it gets to a point and I don't want to get too metaphysical with anything, but there's something called flow, and we all get in it, you know, like you have some nights. I'm sure you know this when you're and stand up. You have some nights were like, okay, I want to I'm battling this one out. I got through it. And the other nights it's like you're surfing on a wave and you just can't fall and not. This is getting kind of heavy, but there there used to be the term genius was referred to something that was like metaphysical, that lived above us, and we didn't actually have talent. We were to conduit conduit for talent um. But I think there is something to it. Whereas you you get you work really really really really really hard, then your brain shuts off and then you just do it like your brain is not even your It's just I don't want to say autopilot because sounds bad, but you're just it seems like something else is flowing through you and you just happened to be the vessel for it. And you know that's I believe you. Look at players like me, look at Keith when he's in the zone. That's like he's not even he leaves his body. Go look, I mean any pretty much any performance of Jimmy Hendrix or Steve ray Van, those guys have left their body and like something else is taking over. But that only comes with putting in your ten thousand hours and putting that ten thousand hours in over and over and over and over again to the point where your brain just shuts off and it just happens. That was gonna be my question, like do you get to flow if you didn't put the work in the flow a product of hour a degree, like you know what I mean. It's like I would say for me, like there are certain days, like I wouldn't consider myself to be labeled as funny. I occasionally say funny things, but I don't think I'm a funny guy. But there will occasionally be a day where I am just like I don't know what's going on, but I'm just getting all of these like really hilarious things are coming to me and I'm saying I'm everyone's laughing, and then I might try it the next day and everyone's like, well, you shut up, You're not funny at all. But I just had that flow that day, I was feeling funny. There was something going on. But you know, and I do think that it is like the same thing, like there isn't innate like just talent you would have like me having a low voice for instance, I didn't practice that. I just have it, and um, you know there is an ability of Like for me, it was like, well, I can't sing like a lot of really and crazy good singers like you know whoever, just whoever comes to mind, Bruno Mars or whoever. But I had to really learn of like how to make a single note like a whole note really feel like I was singing twenty notes or whatever. And that's something. Yeah, it does take it takes a lot of time. But the reason why you were able to work on it. And in the instance when Drop playing guitar, so he just really really liked it more than the average person. Most people listen to it. They don't want to figure it out. It's like I can go out and like try to build a house and just get a bunch of nails and start hammering things together, but until someone really still you work at how to actually frame a house out or how to cut this board properly? Um, is all the difference. Yeah, I actually loved practicing. So going back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, I had a scholarship at Belmont to play upright bass and um and and all that stuff. Yeah, and played the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra. But I never really liked practicing. I did it because I had to, and I enjoyed the playing side of it, but I never I I just didn't want to sit down and do it. But guitar, you, no one ever had to tell me to do it. I couldn't get it out of my hand now. In fact, there was be times where I would be like, oh my god, and I'd be like, he'd still be playing guitar, and I'm like, oh my god, dude, like we're gonna be up in like six hours, like shut up, and I don't know, I don't know why. I would be like all right, and then he'd be like and then he would be like, Okay, well let me play something that because we shared a bedroom growing up and we grew up in a really humble, humble means, and so he would um, yeah, he would then just play like something chill to fall asleep. What were you and not a therapist here, But what were you chasing by trying to get so good at the guitar? I don't know. I mean it there is a bit of an addictive quality to it, you know, um I was. It was probably if you would if you wanted to go into the biological side of it is probably serotonin and dopamine hits, just like anybody that's addicted to anything. I just couldn't. I no one ever told me to do it. It wasn't even a choice. I never said go and said I'm going to choose to want to do this, and I just wanted to do I think I sat away from mostly That's why I find it so hilarious when someone's like, I'm retired ring from music, so like literally you're never in your life going to sing or anything ever again. But honestly, and a big part of it, for me, to a big side of it was in school, I was like, by far the farthest thing from the cool kid, very quiet, very shy, very sensitive, picked on by the bullies and all the cool kids. And my guitar for me was like, Okay, this is my place. I feel invincible here and maybe it just like your saace my safe place, and I felt like it became my identity and maybe I was chasing that. I don't really know a hundred percent, but I just absolutely loved it. And I'd be in school and I'd be like hiding from my own shadow. And then it is therapeutic, you know, like your oldest sister Rachel, who um, you know, God blessed her. She's a wonderful person, but can't she cannot was not blessed. If you're if you are blessed with music, she certainly was not, and she would admit that, and so she always said she she's like, anytime you guys are arguing her a moment gets awkward, she's like, you guys, whistle, You'll be like, we like what her and we does instantly kind of get lost in music, and I think there's like there's something there which is also writing songs those types of things. It is a it's like it is a form of therapy. But it was also very much a kind of a quiet kind of I loved solitude and you know, I could go to my room. Unfortunately, I don't know what I would be as a teenager. Now there's way too you know where they're subjected to, you know, TikTok and all these being an Instagram influencer, and then all these video games, which we had video games as a kid, but they're nothing like they are now. I mean, it was just like I don't know, you played it and whatever. So I was addicted to guitar. And if I ever felt and I've struggled with anxiety, I have had anxiety my whole life, and I've I've done a lot of work around it, but guitar for me was my medicine. So if I would ever fell nervous or anxious or any type of um like hinging on or virginal and depression, guitar wol always bring me back to center. And that's that's has a lot to do with it as well. You know, I asked, you know, what were you chasing? And because I think for well, for me, I know what I was chasing when I was a kid and I was trying to perform at anything was radio. If it was I was getting on stage, it was I didn't have love at home, so I was trying to get it somewhere else. Yeah, absolutely right, And I as I'm you know, I'm engaged and you know, we're gonna get married soon and all. And she has to slap me in the head sometimes and go, hey, you know what, you don't have to like chase that sometimes like you're loved. That's good, that's good. And it's the first person to ever do that to me. And I actually understand what they mean. But and I but I've never heard that, because that's another thing you could actually be chasing that serotonin. That for me is wild to think about. And I know why I did it, right, I know what I'm still doing it, honestly. You know, some of that childhood trauma stuff you just don't shake. You better. One of the hardest things. And it's amazing that you have such a strong woman that kind of shakes you and rattles you out of that. Because what is enough? You know, what is enough success? You know? It's like I was talking about with some of these artists, some of the biggest artists in the world. They don't need the money anymore. I mean, there's something else here that they can't shake. There's you know there. It's how good a Grammy and you get one? It's like, well, how many can I get? I want to have the most I want to I want to have the biggest tour. I want to sell the most tickets, I want to be sell the most records, and um and it it's hard not to get caught up in in that, you know, I think, I mean everyone, it starts to feel very much like a competition and like a celebration at any point in time, especially like radio. I mean, it's all ratings and where you place, you know, any more judgment. It's like crazy, but it gets I mean, and the reason why you don't look at it because I did. That's why we don't look at the chart. I mean, it does drive you. So at the end of two thousand nineteen, I had a pretty epic meltdown, just like very It was really really bad and um, you know, I ended up. My anxiety was at like this crazy high. And I've always kind of dealt with it one or the other. Um And I've never really I mean, don't get wrong, I've liked a party and I like to do things to assist me in partying. But I've never struggled with it, like I never wake up going man, I drink like I've never struggled with the addiction in that way. But I have struggled with workaholism, and my and I you probably struggled with this too. I've always felt like, Okay, if it's getting weird, I'll just work harder and then that will solve my problems, because it has done that for years. And really I'm just distracting myself from the inevitable monster that is about to envelop me. And it did. In the end of two thousand nineteen, I went to um this place called on Site for three weeks. It was a full on thing, you know, it was it was, It was bad. I got to the point where it was suicidal, and I ended up with tonightus ringing in my ears, brought on by a lot of other different things. I wasn't sleeping. It got really, really ugly. And it occurred to me at some point that when I was a kid, I would play a guitar. When I would feel that way, you know, I would play guitar. It would take me out to that, you know. If I was in school and I was anxious, I would go and play guitar. If I was at home and it was too much, was at home with like you know, our parents fighting, I would go into the room and I'll play guitar, and I always made me feel better, and then I pursued a career in music. I'm like, this is fun, and then this is great and I get to do it all the time. Um, meanwhile, I'm not really I'm not really taking care of my inner child, which is really what it all boils down to. Um, I'm just ignoring it and I'm making myself feel better, you know. And of course I had moments of like I'll just drink my way through it and smoked weed my way through it or whatever I had to do. And then um, it got to the point where all right, we made it. We're success successful, We're Grammy nominated, we're winning awards, we're buying houses. At the time when this is happening, we're on tour with like this dream line up with Alison Krause bonding right, and Willie Nelson our three favorite artists period of all time, top three, And um, I had a meltdown and I couldn't do it anymore. I I broke down the tour, which was like farm made. I mean, all these like really huge at this huge moment, and I think in two things I realized happened one I realized that now the very thing that brought me out of anxiety was now the the was now giving me anxiety, was now the reason for it. Because you know, if I felt judgment, I'd play guitar. If I felt anxious, I would play guitar, um, if I felt picked on whatever, I play guitar. Now this thing is like you're judged a lot, you know, which again we don't look at the charts. I try to ignore a lot of that stuff, but it is a lot of judgment that you get every day and it's like you'll sign on to Twitter and you're like, whoa man. You guys are piste off about things and we didn't even do anything and you're mad at us. So it became a lot. So then I had nothing to fall back on. The I didn't even want to play guitar. It was awful. And the other thing I realized when I was there, and through a lot of therapy that I've done since then, is you this is not an uncommon situation to be in. You know, I person growing up and having you know, trauma, and we all have trauma. No one is uh no one, no one gets a hot best. We all have trauma, big trauma, small trauma. You have it and you have to deal with it at some point. And it is it is so not unusual for someone like myself or or really any of us to pursue a goal because we are we're we have this false notion that once we get it, everything will be better. And then the problem is and this happens all the time, and you see, it happened all the time with movie stars, with musicians, just big, you know, anyone that that finally succeeds in their dream once they got it, they realized, oh no, that actually didn't do it. And I've like spent twenty years trying to figure that out. Now what And when you realize that, you look behind you and that giant monster is huge because you never dealt with it. And a lot of times that's why people end up with bad drug addictions and alcohol addiction and rehab and stuff like that, because they never dealt with their problem to begin with. So fortunately, through the love of my family and my wife and friends and the people that we work with, our management was amazing, the label was amazing. J Joyce or produced was amazing. They're like, stop everything, We're done for a month, go go take care of yourself. And I did that. I'm so glad that I made it through because not everyone does. It's crazy to talk about being a workaholic and we're almost done here, but um, like I I experienced that right like I hide from things or did still do get a little better because I have a good supports system now still do. But I went on site too because I was like, oh, it get like whatever is about to happen ain't supposed to be about to happen. It's like you start to crack and I just wanted to catch the cracks before they turned into just full scale earthquakes. Yeah. So as like I have empathy for you, I don't have I have sympathy for anyone that's going through anything, but have empathy because I I understand, right, And let's as what we talked about what comes background full circle lend on this that so many people understand. But because you're only talking about it because it's not on social media, because it's not on Facebook, everybody thinks they're alone. Dude. That is that is? That is it? That is it? Right there? And I've told so many people this the problem that we face in this world, and I think it's a bit of an epidemic, is that everyone we're also connected, yet we all feel so alone. Because you post all of your highlights on social media. That's not who you are, That's not who you really are. That's why when you wrote those things in your book, it made people feel vulnerability is everything. That's that's where connection happens. I don't go hi, I'm John Osborne. I have won all these awards and blah blah blah blah, no one cares. But if I said hi, I'm John was when I struggle with really bad depression anxiety. Immediately, vulnerability creates connection and and talking about it, it's kind of intuitive, talking about it keeps you from being alone. But you're right, Bobby is. And when John was going through a lot of this stuff, um, you know, people were coming up like man, you know, like my son went through this, we're going through this. People that I was really close to, and I had no idea that they were dealing with extreme problems and no one was talking about it. And I kind of felt like wow, you know, and I thought, well, part of why John is in the condition he's in is that he felt so alone and that he couldn't complain about it because it was it was like maybe he felt it was weakness or he didn't want to feel like he was letting anyone down and that he needed a man up and get it together when there was tons of people around you at any given day that are going through some really really severe things. And that really was eye opening to me. I was like, Wow, I just wish people talked about him. Oh yeah, me too. Well, listen, you know I adore both to you guys. Likewise, man, I mean, I couldn't on a fundamental level respect and just love you guys likewise for somebody I don't hang out with like I love you, I don't hang out with anybody really, I got like two people to hang out with. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't know exactly. You gotta go to bed in like two hours, but I do, and I sincerely mean and I don't tell a lot of people that because I don't mean it. But of that from you, I hope you guys know that it is as legitimate from me as it possibly could be. Thank you and you and you said, hey, I needed I need to be picked up. I'm down in Madison broken down, I would come and pick you up. We know that, we absolutely know that. Yeah, and and I And it makes me feel good to know that you are also privy to your to your own um you know, trials that we all deal with, and that you have your soon to be wife who's there just to slap you across the head and remind you, hey man, sometimes it sucks, but it is the best medicine you will ever get. Like I I have. I'm forty one now right, I've never been engaged, never even been close to being engaged, never been married. And it's the first I never lived with anyone. So it's like now she will just go no, yeah, kind of like, wait, I don't. I don't understand that. What do you mean, what do you mean? You know? I just want to go spend six hours playing golf with my friends. And she's like, no, no, we have two dogs, we've the groceries to go get. It's not responsible, No, I don't. And it's and and it's that the real life stuff. But then it's also the I will spiral and she's like, and we'll end on this. This is because we're sharing here. Can I also ask you a question. Is those times where she's like, no, you're not going to go out and do that and then you stay home. Are you like, Wow, this is actually kind of nice. Yeah. At the in the end, I'm like, she write, but I don't say that out out. We were um my TV show that was on NAT G O and it's doing really well. I haven't I haven't watched to show you, but just the reels. I'm like, once we're finished with this, so we don't don't keep going, I want to ask you about the Barges because they both he and I live on the river and we see the Barges. I've got a million questions. Well, so we do this show, and I'm like, I've been waiting to do my own I created this show myself, and it's kind of like part Jackass, part dirty Jobs, part what I do on the radio show. But I've combined all these elements things I love and made this show about people with adversity, and I'm like, I just want to get it on the air. Now Joe buys it, I'm like, all right, Oh, I just it's gotta have huge ratings. One comes out huge ratings. I'm going crazy every week I'm going crazier about something else. It gets on Disney Plus, it's not Disney Plus, it's on the front screen. And I'm like, if I'm on the front screen and it's not one of the biggest shows, they're not gonna want it anymore. And she will grab me and say, you are spiraling like you have to and I listen, and I don't listen to anybody that the blind right. We all have a blind spot and you have to have someone there to tell you what's in that blind spot. And she's doing that there. Okay, listen, you guys. Brothers weren't gonna be out. We're not for everyone. The tour dates all July nine through November twenty, They're out. You're out all the time. I've never seen so many dates in one apparently they're doing four shows in Boston in one hour. Apparently. Um, but but you know, you guys check it out as you can see. UM. I love the guys. Follow them at Brothers Born, very funny on social media. I appreciate you guys this time. I appreciate you. We did an hour. We did over an hour. That's sometimes he needs go fifteen minutes and I'm like, well, I was good folks. But I just appreciate you guys, and I see you Sam. Likewise, buddy here