#297: What it's really like working with family

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Elsie

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You're listening to the A Beautiful Mess podcast, your cozy comfort listen. I'm your host, Elsie Larson.

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Emma

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And I'm your host, Emma Chapman.

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Elsie

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This week, we're getting honest about what it's really like working with family. We're sisters who have

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been working together for almost 20 years, and people always ask us how we do it. So today we're

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spilling the tea. We're also discussing what we're reading, and a hot take about long versus short

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books. Oh yeah, I love that. I'm excited. Okay, before we jump in, I want to talk about how our book

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movie club is finally happening, because I know we've discussed this on the podcast previously, and we

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just we love our book movie club idea, and we pitched it to our real life book club, and they took it.

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Emma

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They were like, we're in. Why not? Yes? I think some people were like, yes, yes, yes, and some people

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were like, Sure.

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Elsie

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So we made this little punch card of all the books, and Emma and I have already read all the books,

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which kind of sucks, but I'm going to add the Odyssey nerds of the group, but I've only watched one of

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the movies because most of the movies haven't come out yet. So that is very exciting. There's a lot of

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adaptations happening this year, or coming out this year, in 2026 so it had project Hail Mary, remarkably

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bright creatures, Clara and the sun. We put the idea of you, that movie's from a while ago, but I can't

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not put it. I love it. Verity, Verity, Verity. I think I'm really excited to see the movie. I love hearing people's

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takes on the book, because it's always a journey. Oh yeah, yeah. So yeah, that is happening. I put the

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punch card in my newsletter. It is on, if you want a copy of it, it's on LC, larson.com, in my most recent

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newsletter, you can download it from my Canva link for free. For fun, print them for your friends. I'm

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carrying them in my purse and handing them out like it's my full time job. So this is why I was put on this

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earth, I finally know and I can fulfill my destiny.

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Emma

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And it has. If you read all the books, it's like you got a personal pan pizza. You do have to buy your own

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personal pan pizza. Who cares? But just do it. It's so much fun, don't we all remember book it.

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Elsie

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The personal pan pizza was my favorite touch, because if you are a millennial American woman or

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man, maybe you grew up earning these pizzas, uh huh, in your classroom. And, like, we had this like,

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special chair, like a bean bag chair in the corner, where you got to sit when you ate it. It was a whole

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thing, and very special. And, yeah, I think that you should always reward yourself for reading. My

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children do the library summer reading, and they get, like, cupcakes and stuff. And I just think it's, it's

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very joyful, and I know they'll remember it forever.

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Emma

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It's so fun, so but, yeah, just caveat, you do have to buy your own we're not buying it for you, but just do

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it anyway, because it's so cool.

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Elsie

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Yeah, it's good. Okay, so this week we're talking about working with family. I think this episode is going

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to be a little more on our the messy and vulnerable end of our spectrum, but I think that's also what

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makes it interesting. So we pre discussed, we're gonna, we're gonna spill the hot tea, not just the cold

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tea.

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Emma

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I mean, some of it's cold and that it happened years ago.

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Elsie

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Oh, it's cold, yeah, but it's, but it's like we're in a good place, and I think that's you should always share

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your yeah story fight right now. Let's go record our podcast. No, thanks, yeah, yeah, and I don't fight

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that much, but when we do, the fights can get weird, so I think it'll be fun.

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Emma

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I don't know what you're talking about.

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Elsie

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Okay, no, she does have the self erasing memory that I do have.

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Emma

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That's a real thing. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, something's wrong with me.

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Elsie

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Okay, so pros and cons of working together with family, so I think the biggest pro, I think I've thought

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about this a lot as sort of our blogger era has sort of been coming to a close, I do think we're going to

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continue working together. We have plans for a future business, still a surprise, that we're hoping to

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launch in the next few years. Yeah, we've blogged together since we were in our early 20s, and during

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that time we spent hundreds of hours together that we wouldn't have spent, I mean, because it's really

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probably hundreds of 1000s, because for a lot of that time, we were working together in person, 40

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hours a week. You know what I mean? The math is math thing like, that's a lot of time that we spent

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together that if we would have been normal sisters who had separate careers, we wouldn't have had it

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was definitely too much at certain times. That's why we had the separate hotel room rule, which we'll

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discuss. And then, yeah, dozens of work trips, which, when you take a work trip with your colleague

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who's also your sister, it does end up being a sister trip, too. Because you do your work, whatever

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you're there to do, and then you get to go to Shake Shack, or you get to, you know, walk to a cute

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boutique. Or, you know, there's just, there's always that little bit of free time in there, like we've all, we've

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been to the cute bookstores all over the entire country during our travel time. So, yeah, I think that's the

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biggest pro that I think of like a reason why it's valuable to work with your family is that you just get so

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much time together that you wouldn't normally like it wouldn't be possible.

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Emma

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Yeah, I'd say that's the biggest pro, I think, for us specifically too, we very much like complement each

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other's strengths and weaknesses in many ways. So that's like a big pro for us. So if you like have that

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dynamic with your family member who you're thinking about working with, and that would probably be a

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big pro too, you generally should try to work with people who complement you, not compete with you,

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right? If you both have the exact same strengths, that's not necessarily bringing more to the table. It's

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bringing the same thing. So it's better if you can kind of complement one another in some ways, and I

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think we do that. So, so that's good too.

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Elsie

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So I did the Pro, I think the biggest con, or the biggest downfall of working with your family, is that you

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bring a tremendous amount of risk into your personal relationship that you won't have control over. So

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you will have big fights if you work together. I've had a lot of big fights with Emma through the years.

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One of them, like I specifically remember there was this fight we had very, very early. It was more than

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10 years ago where I said I regretted ever partnering with her, which is the meanest thing I think I've

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ever said to anyone. It's meaner than anything I've ever said to my husband.

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Emma

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I don't remember this at all.

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Elsie

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I know I've apologized for it, probably like every year since, because it still bothers me that I said that

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and I and it's not true, but obviously, yeah, probably I forgot. But yeah, we have this, these big fights.

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The other thing where it got super weird is that there were some years in there where Emma's husband

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worked for us and I fought with him all the time, all and we had huge blow up fights with screaming and

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cursing and just like really, really not professional behavior. And she had to witness that.

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Emma

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I was kinda caught in the middle.

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Elsie

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Yeah, she had loyalties to both of us, obviously. And I, you know, hated that, right? It just was, it just

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wasn't really good for anyone. But, you know, there, there were some, like, professional things that we

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each brought to the table that were very advantageous. We built some things we were really proud of,

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but we did fight a lot along the way, and kind of the kind of most of the entire time that he worked for us.

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I personally fought with him so much, and now we never fight, yeah, now we never fight. But I do have

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a point for that. Too, permanent landmines in your relationship. So, so Trey and I specifically, we have

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permanent landmines in our relationship that I think might last our whole lives. There's just certain

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topics that we do not discuss anymore, ever again, and it sucks, like, honestly, like it's weird, but also

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it's okay, because we're both adults, and we're both willing to agree to these terms of our relationship,

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and we're both committed to being friends, and we're family, obviously too. We don't work together

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anymore, which is great. I think we both agree on that point, but yeah, like, there's a risk that you will

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you'll have fights where you'll say something you'll regret for the rest of your life. You will have these

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permanent landmines where there's, like, just certain topics that you can't bring up without starting an

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argument. Or the third one is you might have sad endings, and we've also had that in the 20 years

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almost that we've been working together, we have had to fire people, and also we've had to lay people

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off, and also we've had to end relationships that weren't working out. And all of those things are hard

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enough when it's a colleague, and they're much harder when it's a colleague who's also a family

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member. So I wouldn't recommend that part to my enemy, and I think you do have to know that when

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you go into it, like if you choose to work with a family member, like they always say in business, don't

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hire someone who you can't fire. That's very. Hard to do when you're choosing to work with family and

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friends.

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Emma

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Yeah. And I think what part of what has worked so well in our dynamic is before we started blogging

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together. So years before that, I worked for you, so I did like your shipping for your Etsy shop, and

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probably some other things. I really don't even remember everything, and I feel like that dynamic

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worked okay, but it wouldn't have worked long term, it kind of just like graded at both of us in different

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ways. And so I think part of what works for us, why it's worked so long term, is we're 5050, partners,

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and so it's more like a business marriage, where it's like, sure we could divorce, but there's no like,

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you're above me. I'm above you. Like, sure, we have areas where, like, I'm in charge of this, or you're in

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charge of this, but at the end of the day, we're partners, and we either continue on as partners, or we

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would end our partnership, and those are the only two options. There is no like, you fire me, I fire you.

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That's just not an option. Yeah. So I think that helps a lot. I'm not saying that that should be the only

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way that you work with family. I think there are situations where you might want to hire a family member

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or a family member hires you. I think those situations could work, but I just think for us, it's been better

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that we're 5050. Also say so, I guess I'm kind of hinting at this. So we were talking about this before we

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started recording the main advice I would give to people if they're considering working with family, is,

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I'm like, it's all the same advice that I would give someone who's about to get married is, it's like, look,

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you're going to fight. You need to know that you can fight well with this person. And you need to

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practice that and figure it out. And you need to know that it's probably going to be pretty bad for a while

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as you learn like you're going to get better at it, but that needs to be something that you're both

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committed to and fighting well, just means communicating. Well, that's all it means. It's, you know, I

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think communicating well when you're not fighting feels a lot better, so I sort of separate them. But the

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end of the day, it's all just communication. So being able to communicate well is sort of like the top

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thing, which to me, is the same in marriage as it is to working together. And if you're like, not committed

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to that, the other person is not committed to that, or you're both bad at that, and you don't really want to

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learn, you're gonna have major problems. It's just really not going to be good. So it's that. And then the

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other thing I would say is you have to work towards getting on the same page, or understanding what

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page each of you is on, in a few arenas, mainly, I would say money and the time you want to put

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towards, or maybe time isn't boundaries, money and boundaries. So let's say one of you has children,

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one of you doesn't one of you probably has more constraints on your time, as far as how many hours

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you can put towards something versus the other person, or maybe you don't, I don't know, but just you

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need to be able to clearly say your boundaries to each other, because if you don't, there's going to be

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resentment, misunderstandings. Same thing with money. You need to be able to freely discuss money,

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just within your business, but like you're going to have to discuss what each of you makes benefits,

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what you're going to pay someone blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So if you're not able to freely discuss

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money issues, that's going to be a problem with business. Same thing, I would say, in a marriage.

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Elsie

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Navigating small disagreements and also big, huge ones. So one of our most epic fights that I want to

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bring up because I picked one that you won, oh, was when we created our first app. We had to decide,

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and it was right before it launched. We had to decide whether it would be a free app or a paid app, and

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if it were, you know, a free app, there's a there's a case to make for it, either way.

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Emma

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But at the time, most apps were free. This was a long time ago, it was not very common to have a paid

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app.

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Elsie

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There was definitely more free apps. And, yeah, Emma wanted our app to be paid, and I wanted it to be

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free. Like I've always been the like risk, more gambler in our relationship, and she's always been the

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more cautious person, and I think it's good to have some of both. So anyway, she won that argument,

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and I am so incredibly glad she did, because that was our first huge success. It was life changing.

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Yeah, it changed the financial situation of our entire business. So we were able, after that to build, to do

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a lot of the building things that we wanted to do during that era, like hiring people, we got insurance,

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you know, just all kinds of great things that we would not have had the ability to even think about

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before. So, yeah, it was, it was a wonderful decision, and I think it was the right decision for the time.

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Emma

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Who knows what would have happened, yeah, kind of a fun thought.

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Elsie

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We tried it different ways each time. And I also think. The the industry evolved. Oh, yeah, so that made

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a difference too.

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Emma

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I don't even think at the time we launched our first one, you could have a subscription. Like, no, there

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was no option for that in the in the Apple Store. Like, so, so different because, like, most apps are

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subscription based now. So it's just funny, yeah, just such a different time. So, yeah, I think too, like, so

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when you're family, I feel like you naturally know each other a lot of times, but sometimes you, like,

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know someone socially, but you don't know them work wise or whatever. Like, so I think you kind of

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have to have an era where you're figuring that out and need to understand that about each other.

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Because, like, I think some of our fights have happened in that I didn't understand what type of worker

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you were like. Let me explain. I guess I'm more of a, you know, the tortoise and the hare, classic story,

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right? I'm the tortoise. Elsie is the hare. And not really this. You know, this is an exaggeration, but I can

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do like a measured headed towards the finish line. I don't even care what's happening around me. I'm

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gonna just keep on going at the pace. I'm going, Yeah, and Elsie is very boom or bust. So if she's, like,

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excited about something or on something, you will never beat her, not ever. You will never, ever, ever

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beat her. She will do it to the 1,000th degree. But if she's not interested in something, it is impossible to

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get her to do it. If you know that and can appreciate that, you can work really well together, but if you

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don't know that, or you don't appreciate it, you might find yourself fighting with her, and that's not going

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to be productive.

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Elsie

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Yeah, no. I think in our early days, a lot of our biggest fights were kind of surrounding this, because

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Emma wanted me to become a consistent person.

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Emma

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I was like, you're gonna be like me, and then it's like, you can't expect other people to be like, that's not

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how it works.

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Elsie

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Yeah. So and I was, I was very mean. I was always picking on her about the quality of her work,

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because she was like, very like, I'm gonna finish each task and it's done. And to be fair to her, she was,

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you know, in her 20s, learning to do something, but I wasn't all good, yeah, and neither was my work,

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neither was my work, but I had a lot of like criticism to give her over, like her photos or her writing, or

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just like if it wasn't exactly how I thought it should be. So, yeah, We butted heads a lot in our 20s, and

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that was definitely, I would say, most of our big fights were in our 20s. In our 30s, I feel like we calmed

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down a lot, and we kind of got to enjoy what we built. And then now we're in our rebuilding era, which is

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also really exciting. I mean, yeah, I kind of hope that all of the, like, worst, most terrible fights are all

00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:30.000
behind us. But you never know.

00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:31.000
Emma

00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:32.000
But they probably are. But, yeah, I've gotten too wise now, no, I don't know. We'll see. We'll see if that

00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:33.000
holds up. Another thing I was gonna say so a few episodes back, or, I don't know, a little while back we

00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:34.000
talked about values bridge. Yeah, it's called the values bridge. The thing I kind of want to say about that

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:35.000
is one thing that works well with our dynamic of working together is we both deeply value career and

00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:36.000
working. And I think that that makes it where, even though, as I just described, I'm a little bit tortoise,

00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:37.000
she's a little bit hare, I think at the end of the day, though, we're both very interested in what we're

00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:38.000
working on, and we get very excited by it, and it it's very fulfilling for us to have careers and to be like

00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:39.000
constantly working on them. So in a way, it's like we're kind of just feeding into each other's core values.

00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:40.000
And I think that's really special, and does give us this very like deep dynamic. It's almost like a way that

00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:41.000
I can love you is helping you with your career and vice versa, yeah. And I think that's really special for

00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:42.000
family members, if you if you have that, and we do. So that's something I guess I would say to think

00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.000
about, is like, think about maybe, like, take the values bridge and see what your guys's core values are,

00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:44.000
and it's okay if they're not the same, but it's just something to kind of think about as you navigate

00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:45.000
working together, or if you're already working together, be like, Oh, because I just feel like the more you

00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:46.000
learn about someone else, and the more you learn about yourself, the better you're able to navigate

00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:47.000
relationships and situations. Because you're like, I see why you think this, and I see why I think this.

00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:48.000
And now we don't have to have this like, I'm mad at you. It's just more like we're seeing things different,

00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:49.000
and we've got to find our path through it. And that's all there is, you know. So there's that values,

00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:50.000
thinking about your values?

00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:51.000
Elsie

00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:52.000
I agree. Like my two closest relationships, my sister and my husband, both have high values in work

00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:53.000
and ambition, the same as I do, and I think that's why we that's why we are close. That's one reason

00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:54.000
why we're close. I think that, like one of the sort of, like sad stories that we've often heard, because in

00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:55.000
our especially in, like, our early blogging era, I feel like a lot of people thought of us as like a temp. That

00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:56.000
they should follow, and they started blogs with a partner for that reason. And like, that's not always

00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.000
good. Like, you can totally do businesses like this by yourself, and for a lot of people, it's better that

00:03:57.000 --> 00:03:58.000
way. But a lot of experiences that people have are, you know, you start something with someone, and

00:03:58.000 --> 00:03:59.000
you kind of plan out, like, I'll do this and you'll do this, but then only one person actually, like, completes

00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:00.000
their homework, and they end up doing everything. And then obviously, six months later, a year later,

00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:01.000
it's so clear to both people that it's not working and that, you know, it's not going to work, and it's just

00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:02.000
kind of it becomes like a guilt and shame on one end and then a frustration on the other end. So I think

00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:03.000
partnering with someone who has your same level of ambition is extremely important. You know you

00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:04.000
don't like for someone like me, I should not partner with someone who's like, I never want to work on

00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:05.000
vacation. I never want to think about work after 5pm like, that's my brain doesn't work that way. And

00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:06.000
probably the people I collaborate with closely in my life will also have a brain that I do think about work

00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:07.000
a little bit before I go to bed. I just do it's like, how I'm wired.

00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:08.000
Emma

00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:09.000
Same and like, we will talk about work stuff like at a holiday, and not because we're avoiding the

00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:10.000
holiday, just like it's on our minds, and we both are interested in the conversation, like it's just what

00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:11.000
we're like, and so it works well. But if one of us was like, Oh, I, you know, I'm not at work right now, so I

00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:12.000
really don't, you know, it could be a little bit of a friction, or it could even be a big fight, but it could at

00:04:12.000 --> 00:04:13.000
least be like, kind of like, oh, this is more difficult dynamic, because one of us is really jazzed about this

00:04:13.000 --> 00:04:14.000
all the time, and the other one's like, Please don't talk to me about work. I came here to watch a movie

00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.000
where we will just whisper.

00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:16.000
Elsie

00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:17.000
Yeah, no, I think that that's absolutely and yeah, since I said something negative about your husband

00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:18.000
earlier. Now I'll say that is something that I love about him, that we've always really connected on, is

00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:19.000
that he's also very career focused, and he can talk about it all day too. Yeah. And so that's something

00:04:19.000 --> 00:04:20.000
that we've always had in common. Most of the people who were the best fit as colleagues were very

00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.000
driven and very invested and sort of self starter people. So in as we progress through the years, we

00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:22.000
started only hiring self starter personalities, because we learned that that was the only type of people

00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:23.000
we liked working with.

00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:24.000
Emma

00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.000
We're also bad managers, and we figured that out. So we really needed self starters, because I'm just

00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:26.000
not an overseer.

00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:27.000
Elsie

00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:28.000
It turns out that managing is its own skill.

00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.000
Emma

00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:30.000
That's a skill, skill that I don't have, don't really want.

00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:31.000
Elsie

00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:32.000
if I'm being honest, me neither. Yeah. So anyway, do you have any more like fights, or any more happy

00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:33.000
things from our working years? Or any advice for people who are considering it.

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:34.000
Emma

00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:35.000
Couple of the things I wrote down was, I think that this goes along with fighting is, I think resentment is

00:04:35.000 --> 00:04:36.000
much harder to come back from than just having, like, a straightforward argument as close to the

00:04:36.000 --> 00:04:37.000
incident as you can. And I also put it out there, I think it's totally fine if you sometimes need a minute to,

00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:38.000
like, process how you're feeling, or if you're in the middle of an argument, and you're like, I'd like to

00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:39.000
table this for a few hours, or until tomorrow. I want to sort out better how I'm feeling, or I'm just feeling

00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:40.000
kind of heated, and I don't like that, and I just want to, like, have a minute. That's fine. I think some

00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:41.000
people are like, No, we've got to talk about this from start to finish. And I'm like, I don't really, I don't

00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:42.000
really believe that. I think if you're using a break as avoidance, because you're just going to try to get

00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:43.000
out of talking about the thing that's not good, don't do that. But if you just need a minute, I'm a person

00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:44.000
who I feel my feelings very slowly, as I said, I'm the tortoise, so it just comes over me slowly, and

00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.000
sometimes it makes it where, like, if something bad happens, I'll be like, That's okay. And I don't mean it

00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:46.000
yet. My anger actually hasn't hit me yet, and when it does all of a sudden, I'm like, Oh, shit. I already

00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:47.000
said it was okay, but now I'm actually feeling angry, and I think I need to talk with them about it, not in a,

00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:48.000
you know, like, you suck way, but just like, hey, I'm having some feelings, and I need to express them

00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:49.000
somehow, hopefully in an appropriate way. And if I don't, they'll they'll curdle inside my heart like spoiled

00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:50.000
milk into resentment. And that ain't no good. You can't have that. So that's like harder to come back

00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:51.000
from. It's better to just get in there as close to the incident as you can and say what you're feeling. And

00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:52.000
by the way, make it more about you. Be like, I'm feeling this way, not like you did a bad thing. Don't start

00:04:52.000 --> 00:04:53.000
off that way. Start with, I'm feeling overlooked. I'm feeling mad. I'm feeling like you didn't value this thing

00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:54.000
that I built. You know, whatever it is, start with what your what's going on inside of you, and your harder

00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:55.000
in your head. And start the. There, because that's just a better place than trying to guess what the other

00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:56.000
person meant, because you maybe don't know at all. So anyway, but yeah, resentment garbage, better

00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:57.000
to just fight it out as quickly as you can. And then the other thing I would say is I feel like a lot of the

00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.000
best times are when the business is thriving. So that's fun. Like, enjoy that and celebrate together. I

00:04:58.000 --> 00:04:59.000
remember those, like, I remember going to Hoola hands for, like, way too sweet of cocktails whenever

00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:00.000
our app comes out. I remember that. I don't even really remember some of the fights you've brought up,

00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:01.000
but I remember some of the moments we had where we were, like, we did something and it worked,

00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:02.000
hooray! So, like, lean into those moments, because that's like, some of the best rewards of working with

00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:03.000
a family member is you, like, have these stories together now of hopefully success and like, happy

00:05:03.000 --> 00:05:04.000
times, and then you need to take care when things are going bad, because those are the times where

00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:05.000
you're going to feel like, we don't have any money. And it's a lot easier for me to blame myself, or blame

00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:06.000
you, or get mad at you, or get mad at myself. And it's like, well, it might just be that your business is

00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.000
dying for other reasons. Let's just, you know, open our hearts up. Because if you're working with

00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:08.000
someone else, you just got to be like, hey, things aren't going well, and we're gonna try to navigate it.

00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:09.000
And that's that's all there really is to this. So I think it's like, just, my thing is, like, lean in to your feelings,

00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:10.000
whenever things are good and whenever things are really bad, take care to really examine your

00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:11.000
feelings, and hopefully they're not ones of blaming yourself blaming others. It's just more of a like, let's

00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:12.000
see what makes sense here.

00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:13.000
Elsie

00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:14.000
I actually think it's really fun to strategize through challenging times. Plan a pivot, plan a closure. It's not

00:05:14.000 --> 00:05:15.000
really ever fun to let someone go, but it can be a relief when it's over, if you know that it's something

00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:16.000
you need to do. But yeah, I think that yeah, standing strong with each other through those times, it is

00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:17.000
challenging, but I think that like being proactive, to always keep pivoting when you need to. Is

00:05:17.000 --> 00:05:18.000
something that has helped us?

00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:19.000
Emma

00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:20.000
We're both optimists, yeah, so I think that also helps, and it could actually work if we were both

00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:21.000
pessimists. I'm not saying don't ever work with a pessimist if you're an optimist. I just think it's

00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:22.000
something to look at.

00:05:22.000 --> 00:05:23.000
Elsie

00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:24.000
I don't know. I like working. I wouldn't want to.

00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.000
Emma

00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:26.000
I like, I like going into a brainstorm and people bring ideas, rather than just that won't work, that won't

00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.000
work, that won't work, that person can just get the hell out. I'm like, bring some unhinged bad ideas,

00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:28.000
dude, try. Let's try. And Elsie will do that, and I will do it.

00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:29.000
Elsie

00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.000
Yeah, she knows. I'll bring my unhinged ideas to a brainstorm. That's all I do.

00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:31.000
Emma

00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:32.000
Like, well, optimism, so yeah, I think that that helps our dynamic a lot, too.

00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:33.000
Elsie

00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:34.000
It's beautiful. I think that it's one of the best decisions I made in this lifetime to partner with my sister. I

00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:35.000
think she's right that being 5050, partners is completely different than hiring a family member. So keep

00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:36.000
that in mind. If you're not willing to do a 5050 partnership, it might be something to think about. Why I

00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:37.000
think it's very hard to have a family member as your employee. It's much trickier. It's much trickier. It's

00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:38.000
much less pleasant. I don't really recommend it personally.

00:05:38.000 --> 00:05:39.000
Emma

00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.000
No, because who do they have to complain to about their boss? Yeah, it's silly.

00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.000
Elsie

00:05:41.000 --> 00:05:42.000
You gotta Yeah. But yeah for in these years, I think there's been a lot of lessons we learned good bad

00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:43.000
things the hard way.

00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:44.000
Emma

00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:45.000
Yeah, and I don't know, like if you have a side of this too, but for me, so I think you have to know

00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.000
yourself like so my personality is I'm a middle child, and I'm a very classic middle child. So if you type in

00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:47.000
middle child, what they like, you're gonna get me. There's a lot of like. Not every middle child's like that,

00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:48.000
but I happen to be anyway. So I think I did have to go through a time in my early adulthood, and this

00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:49.000
was when I moved to LA where I needed to be my own self for a while away from Elsie, because Elsie

00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:50.000
is, like, really cool. I don't know if you guys know this, but she means really overpowering. She's very

00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:51.000
cool, and she is a little overpowering. It's because she's cool and, like, she's my big sister, so I've

00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:52.000
always looked up to her. I have that dynamic too, and I needed time in my adult life where I became my

00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:53.000
own self and I had my own point of view, and I felt like I could do life on my own, apart from her. And

00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:54.000
until I had that, I don't think I was ready to really work with her, because it would have just been more of

00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.000
like being in her shadow all the time. And I think that people online sometimes perceived us that way at

00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:56.000
different points. And it it doesn't really matter to me, because I know for me and my heart that I figured

00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:57.000
that out for myself, and I needed to, I did so if you're in a situation like that, because maybe you're

00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:58.000
going to work with a sibling, and maybe they're older, maybe they're younger, maybe you had a certain

00:05:58.000 --> 00:05:59.000
dynamic when you were growing up, I don't know. So you might need to figure something out about

00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:00.000
yourself before you're able to bring your best self and your whole self to the situation. Same thing, by

00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:01.000
the way, as marriage, you've got to be a whole person on your own before you can really be your best

00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:02.000
self in any situation.

00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.000
Elsie

00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:04.000
Oh, it's beautiful.

00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:05.000
Emma

00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:06.000
Yeah, I love that.

00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:07.000
Elsie

00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:08.000
I'm also grateful that I tried to do it without you, because it was so so much worse, and then I made you

00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:09.000
appreciate me. It made me appreciate you. Yes, okay, so my closing thought on this topic is something

00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:10.000
that I think every small business owner needs to hear, and really is that no business is forever.

00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.000
Businesses have lifetimes, just like people. And I think we accept that we're all going to die, but for

00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:12.000
some reason, people don't accept that businesses are, you know, on a limited lifespan. And there is

00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:13.000
nothing wrong with that. So I think knowing that in the beginning, and then you you know, there's lots of

00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.000
things you can do to keep it healthy, give it the best and longest life it can have, but all businesses will

00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:15.000
end eventually. And I don't think I knew that when we started, you know, I think I somehow thought we

00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:16.000
could do a version of this till we were 80, you know what I mean, and maybe we will.

00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:17.000
Emma

00:06:17.000 --> 00:06:18.000
But yeah, it's, uh, it won't, it won't be recognizable on the outside in that way.

00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:19.000
Elsie

00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:20.000
But it's helped me the last few years, as we were sort of closing some parts of a beautiful mess and

00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:21.000
pivoting some parts, we did receive backlash from our loyal, wonderful listeners and readers, who we

00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:22.000
appreciate and we always will, but some of it was really mean and really harsh, and it was kind of like,

00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:23.000
why are you burning down your own business? Why are you giving up?

00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:24.000
Emma

00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:25.000
Ive had close friends say things like that to me too. Yeah, because they just don't know. They don't

00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:26.000
know, you know, it's not their fault. It's just, I mean, it's a little judgy, but, like, they don't know, you know,

00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:27.000
and it's okay.

00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:28.000
Elsie

00:06:28.000 --> 00:06:29.000
Yeah, and I think that at the point that that came in, I had already kind of gone through my own grief

00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:30.000
cycle, and I knew in my heart, like, no business is forever, and it made it a lot easier for me to just, like,

00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:31.000
pass through that little sorrowful time without letting it be permanent. You know, it's just, it was just a

00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:32.000
weird season. So, yeah, I think when you begin your business, do also know that someday it'll end,

00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.000
because we've been doing a lot of marriage analogies, which are very good and they apply, but not in

00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:34.000
this way. Like, yeah, you know what I mean, marriage. You might really be married to this person till you

00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:35.000
die. You're probably not gonna own whatever businesses you're starting till you die. Probably not, you

00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:36.000
know, and that's okay, and it's normal. And I think it's something that, like, you should try to take on your

00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:37.000
own terms as much as you can.

00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:38.000
Emma

00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:39.000
Yeah, book report. Time. Book report. Okay, my book report this week is Lights Out by Navessa Allen.

00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:40.000
Have you heard of this?

00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:41.000
Elsie

00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:42.000
I haven't.

00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.000
Emma

00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.000
Okay, it's been on the best seller. It's not current the moment, but it's, it's been out a little bit. It's a

00:06:44.000 --> 00:06:45.000
series, okay? It's called the into the darkness series, and other ones are out already. So this is the first

00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:46.000
one. It is a dark romance. Okay, so dark romance can mean a number of things. I tend to think of

00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:47.000
Colleen Hoover, some of her works in that kind of vein. This isn't really that.

00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:48.000
Elsie

00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.000
I don't think I've ever read a dark romance before.

00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:50.000
Emma

00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:51.000
I haven't read that many. For someone who reads a lot of romance, dark romance isn't really a corner of

00:06:51.000 --> 00:06:52.000
it that I tend to walk over to.

00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:53.000
Elsie

00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:54.000
That's the main thing that makes it different from romance.

00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:55.000
Emma

00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:56.000
So usually it has morally gray characters, one or both of the love interests, or if there's three love

00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:57.000
interests, whatever, it'll have very morally gray. They'll be making choices that are very on the line, and

00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:58.000
is the author's job to make us still love them and still root for them. And I'll say this author did it. So I

00:06:58.000 --> 00:06:59.000
was just kind of like, I don't know about this book, I'd seen it around, but I was like, I don't know if it's

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going to be for me, but I'll give it a try. I've just had so many people recommend it. So I was like, we'll

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see. And I was immediately like, okay, this person can write because right away, like, you're kind of

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thrown into this world. I don't think people even realize how hard it is to do a first chapter, because it's

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like you're introducing everyone. It's like showing up at a party where you don't know anyone and not

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wanting to leave immediately, which has never once happened to me in my life. So, but like, that's what

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the author's job is in chapter one, right? So, yeah, anyway, she does it. I was immediately like, what's

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happening here? We're in a world where, like, you've set it up, there's gonna be blood and gore, there's

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gonna be dangerous situations, there's gonna be morally gracious. Right away, the the feelings, the

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vibes, are there, you're you feel like you walked into a hot topic store and you're like, Okay. Right. All

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right. Here I am, and it's also like, such a page turner. I think I read this in like four days. It was just like,

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boom, boom, boom. Every chapter ending was like, Whoa, what's going to happen next? Uh oh, she

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just got them in a really tough situation. How are they going to get out of that? And so it was very Yeah,

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it was it was a fast read. It was very voyeuristic. It was weird. I don't think I'm gonna read the next ones

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in the series. I feel like it was, for me, personal note, a one and done. But as far as writing, the writing

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was a plus. And definitely, if you're like, I want to learn more about writing chapter endings. This one

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does it. This really does it. So that's fun. The book opens with some trigger warnings. Anytime a book

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does that, I feel like I should mention that, in case someone's going to pick this up and not realize that.

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So this has lots of like kink sex in it. It's very like kink positive. So there are people wearing masks. A

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character breaks into someone's house. There's stalking, there's a sex with a knife involved. There's

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choking, there's, I'm not using all the right words. I think they call that breath play. There's trying to think

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of anything else read the first page of the book, because there's some trigger warnings, and could be

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things that you maybe don't want to read, and that's totally fine, but I'm just trying to give a sense of the

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writing and, like, yeah, what the book's about. But like, I thought it was super fun, quite the ride. Also,

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this is a side note from the book, but it just is the thing that I've sort of, like, found myself super drawn

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to. So I'm always reading, like the acknowledgements or the about the author. I just like reading about,

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like, people's journeys. So it mentioned that this author, she released, I believe this book originally self

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published as like segments. I don't know if it was each chapter or if it was, like every three chapters

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through her Patreon, and that was like, kind of how it got a big following. And then she obviously went

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into traditional publishing. I bought this at a bookstore or maybe thrift books, I don't remember, but it's

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been traditionally published since then. And I just thought that was super interesting. I was immediate,

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like, I got to go check out our Patreon. I want to see like, I don't know. I just find that it's very like

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Brandon Sanderson to me, where it's like, yes, he's traditionally published, but he also has this whole

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other business side to him that's very interesting. And as someone who's always interested in business,

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and then also, I like people who, like forge their own path, I'm very drawn to that, and I always want to

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know the stories behind it. I mean, I think that's why I got into blogging, was I was seeing that people

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were making money online just writing what they were interested in. And I was like, Whoa, I want to

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learn about that. And so anytime I see authors doing something like that, whether it's like, adjacent to

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traditional publishing, or before they traditionally published, whatever, I am always drawn to it. And this

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author does that. So she has a pretty interesting story, and she's a great writer, that's all I have to say.

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But if you don't want to read about people choking each other during sex. Don't read the focus.

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Elsie

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Yeah, I'm definitely not going to read it, but I enjoyed hearing your review. That's interesting. Yeah. I

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also love hearing people's individual like, stories of how it worked out for them, because every story is

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so different. Okay, what I am reading, I'm actually still currently reading this, but I'm almost to the end, is

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Lincoln in the Bardo by George Saunders. So this book is so fun and different. As soon as I started

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reading it, I don't experience this very much very often in my life, but I experienced sort of like rage that

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no one told me about this book that I was just not finding out. I was like, offended. I was like, who in this

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world do you know who loves ghosts more than me? There's no one. There's no one, but someone

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must have told me about it, because it was on my bookshelf when I when it was recommended to me

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this time, it was already on my bookshelf. So to be fair, I do have, like, hundreds of books that I don't

00:07:49.000 --> 00:07:50.000
remember how they got there. I do too. Probably someone's recommended that did recommend it

00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:51.000
anyway. Okay, so this book, so I will start by saying I knew, I know about George Saunders. I follow his

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sub stack. I just thought of him as a famous white man author like I didn't really know anything about

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him, you know, I knew he was a writing teacher his substack that comes across in his sub sack, but I

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did not, and I was like planning that sometime I would read one of his novels. But, you know, there's

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just so many famous white men. Yes, sometimes you don't get down the list, right, right, yeah, but this

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is a special, famous white man. So what I love about this book? So first of all, it's a ghost story. Second

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of all, it is a historical fiction, but it is the strangest, most unique twist on the genre that I've seen in a

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while, because it is about Abraham Lincoln and. And I have, like, one of my top historical fixations is

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Mary Todd Lincoln's White House, seances. I love that kind of, obviously, I knew that they lost a child

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while they were in the White House. Everyone knows that, if you care about seances, and you know

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spiritualism and things like that. So this book is about. So the historical aspect of it, that's true is that

00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:02.000
Abraham Lincoln was reported to go, I guess, nearby the White House, to this graveyard. I know it's like

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a more of a, you know, the like ones that are like, you can go inside like, it's not a grave. You did dig up

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you, yeah, open the door and go inside one of those types of things, and take the child out of the coffin,

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hold him after death. So that is like real historical account. And then the rest of the book is just a

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fictional ghost story about the ghosts who live in this graveyard and witnessed it the child ghost, Willie

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Lincoln, and it is quite a journey like it is. It is a it's a wonderful book, but it's super weird. I would say it

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kind of has, like a Wes Anderson type flavor, where it has that, like seriousness balanced with like

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quirky. So it has that. And then the other thing that I am absolutely obsessed with is the audio book for

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this has more than 50 performers. They're mostly all famous. So the whole entire book. You're just

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hearing famous voices, and they will do like, there will be like, a new famous person who does, like, two

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lines from the book. So it is just like the, like a work of art audio book. So yeah, I'm obsessed. I'll

00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:13.000
probably finish it this afternoon. And yeah, it's just a wonderful journey. If you like super weird historical

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fiction, definitely check it out. And if you like experimental fiction in general, I also think it's worth just

00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:15.000
like getting the paper book and looking at it, because it's very different. And like structurally, it's just very

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inspiring to look at the pages and see how it's formatted and stuff. So, yes, lovely, but it's hot take time.

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Emma

00:08:17.000 --> 00:08:18.000
Oh, yeah, okay, we do have hot take. Okay. This is from Michelle. She says my hot take Is this inside

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every good 700 page book is an excellent 500 page book, just waiting for a strong edit. No book needs

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to be 700 pages if it does make it two books. Yes, even the Goldfinch. Okay, shots fired there at the

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end.

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Elsie

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I know, that's funny that she tried to picked one single out. She tried to bring Donna Tartt into this. Okay,

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you go first, because I feel like we might come down a little differently on this one.

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Emma

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I mean, I will say when I'm choosing a new book. So I'm, like, standing in my library looking all the

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books that I have on there, I will, like, sometimes be like, that looks pretty long. I don't know if I'm gonna

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love it. So it could be a little bit of a deterrent to readers, for if it seems much longer than other books

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they're reading, then they might feel like, Am I ready for that commitment? You know? So I could see

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that I also think, like, every book should be edited. Every book should be edited to, like, the shortest it

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can be with the most impact. But I think that's kind of like an art form. So what does that mean? You

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know, I don't know. So, and I'm trying to think of a book that I read that was like crazy long that I was

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like, Yeah, needed to be that long. Couldn't have been more than one book, because a lot of books I

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read that are a series, like they're more than one is like a trilogy, and a lot of times they're fantasy or

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something like that. I don't know if I agree or disagree. I guess I agree, but it's a pretty light light

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agreement. If I was in a jury, I feel like I could be swayed in the room. I don't really feel strongly. Okay,

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okay, where are you at?

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Elsie

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Okay, so I strongly agree. In general, I do enjoy a tightly edited book more, and I often read an excellent

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book that's on the long side, and think in my mind, what I would have cut out, or what what didn't really

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need to be. And there is always something I do. I do agree, though I do agree, and I think that longer

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books have a price of entry that's more intimidating, like, that's why there's, like, some Anne Rice books

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that I haven't read, right? They're like, they're the longest books I've ever seen, and I do want, I would

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like to read them, but, yeah, I would have already read it if it came as a medium sized novel, right? So,

00:08:44.000 --> 00:08:45.000
yeah. So I would say, in general, I agree. But. But there are exceptions. For sure, I think that long books

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are good too, and I'm not going to not read it just because it's long, but yeah, in the back of my mind,

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personally, probably I would think it would be a little bit better if it was a little bit shorter. Okay, but

00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.000
there's a part of this that I strongly disagree with. Oh, I strongly disagree that you can just chop a long

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book into two books drama. Disagree with that, like, you can't do that. That's not how it works. Usually,

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a lot of these books would not make a stronger two book. You know what? I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like,

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they just don't have the structure for that.

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Emma

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I can't think of an example, but I know for sure I've gotten to the end of a book before, and I didn't

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realize it was gonna keep the story was gonna keep going. And I just was like, I was like, I never read

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the other ones. Like, you know, I was almost like angry, like just make it longer.

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Elsie

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I recommended it to you, and she was so mad.

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Emma

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I haven't read the rest of it.

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Elsie

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It was a four book series, and after the first book, which ends on the most delicious possible cliffhanger,

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she was like angry.

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Emma

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Yeah, I was like, tape the other one onto the end here, because we weren't done, and now I'm mad.

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Elsie

00:09:05.000 --> 00:09:06.000
Yeah, but that was a planned series. I just think if it's a series, it has to be well planned, where each

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book stands on its own, you know, in a way.

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Emma

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Well, I'll say the first one must stand on its own, in a way, the second one can bleed into the third one

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that I will accept in a trilogy, but the first one, it better stand on its own. And if it doesn't, I'm gonna be

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pissed. But the second one, now you can kind of end us on a weird because we know the third one's

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coming. That's fine. That works for me.

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Elsie

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But yeah, not the first, yeah. No, I do. I do think editing is a beautiful thing, yeah?

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Emma

00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:16.000
And hard, because we try to do it now with each other and on our own. And I'm like, man, editors are

00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:17.000
just really smart.

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Elsie

00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:19.000
Yeah, so it's a skill for sure.

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Emma

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All right, now it's time for a joke or a fact or a meditation with Nova.

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Elsie

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Hey, Nova, what do you have for us this week?

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Nova

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Another joke.

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Elsie

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Okay, I'm ready.

00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:28.000
Nova

00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.000
What do you call a sleeping bull?

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Elsie

00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:31.000
Hmm, a sleeping bull, I'm not sure.

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Nova

00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:33.000
A bulldozer.

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Elsie

00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:35.000
Good job.

00:09:35.000 --> 00:09:36.000
Nova

00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.000
Have a good week, everybody.

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Elsie

00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:39.000
All right, we love receiving your hot takes and podcast suggestions, so send those to us anytime at

00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:40.000
podcast@abeautifulmess.com. Thanks so much for listening, and we will be back next week.