NALC's Collective Bargaining History

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Hello, brothers, sisters,
and friends, and welcome to

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You are the Current Resident podcast.

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This is the official podcast of the
National Association of Letter Carriers,

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the union that represents 280,000 active
and retired city letter carriers employed

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by the United States Postal Service.

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I'm Ed Morgan, and today we're
doing things a little bit different.

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Two weeks to go in our Leadership Academy
Week 3 class, as always, we had

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Jim Sauber come out and do a class
on the history of collective bargaining.

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We got a lot of good feedback
from the class, and they thought that we

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should put a podcast out,
especially during the tentative agreement

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and the voting on that,
just to give you a history of collective

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bargaining, what we've been through
through the years and what obstacles

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and other things that we're facing
in this collective bargaining time.

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We have on today, Emeritus Chief
of Staff, Jim Sauber.

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Hey, Jim, thank you for coming on.
Great to be here.

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Thanks, Ed.

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Can you give us a little bit
of biography about what you've done

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with the NALC and the Postal Service?

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Sure.
I grew up in Michigan, outside of Detroit.

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I'm from a family of auto workers.

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I've been around the labor movement
most of my life.

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Unfortunately, because of
my dad's local, I was able

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to go to University of Michigan,
where I studied labor economics.

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I pretty much spent most
of my career with the NALC.

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I was hired in 1985 as
a research economist.

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Over the years, I served
as a director of research.

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Then for 16 years, I was chief
of staff, first to President Bill Young

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and then to President Fred Rolando.

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I retired at the end of 2022.

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But I have stayed on as a contractor
to help out on special projects,

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which I really feel a great deal
of satisfaction to be able to continue

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my role with NALC in whatever way I can.

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I just I just want to thank all the
members for the really great working life

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that I got in this great union.

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It's really a pleasure
to be with you today.

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Thank you.

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This is our 15th round
of collecting bargaining.

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Can you give us the big picture from
where we started to where we are now?

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Well, yeah.

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The modern history of the NALC, of course,
started with the 1970-1970 strike.

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Up to that point, what we always
refer to it inside the NALC was we lived

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under a regime of collective begging.

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Between 1889 and 1970, the only way
letter carriers could ever get

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a raise or any improvement in
their working conditions was to basically

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go hat in hand to the United States
Congress and basically lobby for it.

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That's what the union,
for a good chunk of its history,

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we were a lobbying operation.

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It was very difficult.

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There are oftentimes,
there would be almost decades

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that would go by between pay increases.

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Politicians, in general,
were very reluctant to raise pay and made

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the working conditions and the standard
of living for letter carriers really

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suffered as a result.

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Thanks to the strike, we won
collective bargaining rights in 1970.

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And so we moved from collective begging
to collective bargaining.

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As you mentioned, there's actually
this is a 16th round of bargaining.

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We've had 15 completed rounds.

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And then depending on what happens with
this tentative agreement, we'll we'll

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have finished the 16th contract.

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Over that period, it's been

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a huge variety of different environments.

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But the one constant has been that
we have the right to sit across the table

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for management and have a say
in our pay and working conditions.

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That's been a huge benefit for
letter carriers and other postal workers.

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Can you explain the
interest arbitration process to Sure.

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Let me just step back and just say, under
the Postal Reorganization Act, which is

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the legislation that really created the
modern postal service, we went from being

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a taxpayer-supported government agency
to being a self-supporting...

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Essentially, it was initially
set up as a nonprofit corporation.

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But under that legislation,
postal workers, for the first time,

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were covered by private sector labor
law, the National Labor Relations Act.

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But The big difference was that unlike
private sector workers and employers,

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if they couldn't get an agreement
in collective bargaining,

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the workers either had a choice to strike,
to go on strike,

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or even sometimes management would lock
out the workers to try to force

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changes in these agreements.

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After the strike, Congress really never
wanted to have that disruption again.

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The one key difference
under the NLRA is that we have

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binding interest arbitration.

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It's It's unique
in the federal government.

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Basically, many of our listeners
know about rights arbitration,

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where you have an arbitration
over what the meaning of our contract is.

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In interest arbitration, it's actually
a battle over what's in the contract,

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the contents of the contract,
the provisions of the contract.

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So under our system,
it's a tripartite system,

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meaning that the union gets to name
an arbitrator,

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postal management gets to name
an arbitrator, and together they choose

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a neutral chairman
of the Arbitration Board to hear

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the case that's presented to them.

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Under the law, basically every provision
of the contract is subject to change

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in the interest arbitration process.

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Basically, either party
can make any proposal to change

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any provision of the contract.

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It can be quite dramatic,
have quite dramatic effects

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on our national agreements.

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If you got to go into it with
your eyes wide open because it's risky

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in that you can win and you can lose.

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But it is also in a time when most
unions, the power of the strike has

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been diminished over time as there's been
a lot of negative court decisions

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that have really weakened the right
to strike in the United States.

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This process actually gives us
a real chance to make our case

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on the merits before a neutral chairman.

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It's a pretty unique process.

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I think out of the 16 rounds
of bargaining, we've had six of them

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have gone to interest arbitration.

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It's not an unusual thing.

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In the course of my career, I've
been involved in just about every one

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since the 1991 Mittenfall Arbitration.

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I'm a big fan of the process.

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I think it gives workers a real shot
at making their case on the merits.

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Can we get into colas now?

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Can you explain what they are?

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There's been a lot of talk
among the membership about colas

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and exactly they are.

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If you could get a detail
into that, I appreciate it.

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Sure.

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The cola provision of our contract
has been extremely important to us.

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In fact, more than half of all the
wage increases that we've ever negotiated

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have come out of our COLA clause.

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These cost of living adjustments,
it's actually an innovation

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that was invented by the UAW,
my dad's union, back in the 1940s.

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There was a time in which
almost every union contractor

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in the country had a COLA Clause.

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I think at one point, about 60 %
of contracts, just in the modern history

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of the Pulse Service, there was a time
in that early '90s where 60 %

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of contracts the COLA clauses.

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Over time, they fell out of favor, but
the NLC has always held on to our COLA,

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and I think strategically, it's made
all the difference in the world.

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Basically, our COLA is based
on movements in the consumer price index.

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We basically get about 55
to 60% of any increase in inflation

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is covered just by the cost
of living adjustments that we have.

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We get these adjustments twice a year.

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It's been that way since the early '70s,
and It's been incredibly valuable

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to us just over time.

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Like I said, half of our increases
have come from them.

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But it really protects you
against these unforeseen events

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like we've just been through.

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In the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic,
we there was a huge surge of inflation

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that nobody anticipated back

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when the 2019 contract was being settled.

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And thank goodness we had it, because
I think over $10,000 annually in raises

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for our top-step carriers, about 6,500
of it came from the COLA Clause.

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And so it's something that just about

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every union president in the history

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of the NALC has a higher priority
of maintaining the COLA.

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And it's been a real battle because
the Postal Service over the years

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has tried multiple times to get rid
of the COLA clause or to change it

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to reduce the formula we use.

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We have a very good formula
based on a 1967 version

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of the Coda, of the CPI, rather.

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And many unions don't have...

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They have a much less generous
COLA formula that maybe

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covers 20 or 25 % of inflation.

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And we've maintained
a high-quality cola all these years.

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And so I think that's always
been a key strategic goal of every round

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of bargaining, is to maintain that cola.

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The Postal Services has tried almost every
arbitration we've ever had

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They've tried to either eliminate the cola
altogether or to change it pretty

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dramatically, either change the formula
to make it less generous,

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or they've tried in a couple of periods
in the 1990s, they tried to put a trigger

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factor into it, which would have meant
that no colas would be paid unless

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inflation got up over 4% or over 3%.

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That's a common thing.

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A good example of that is the
United Parcil Service contract,

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the UPS drivers have a cola Cola Claus

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in their contract, but it only is paid

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once inflation exceeds 3%.

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That's had a huge dramatic difference
between them, their contract, and ours.

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I just looked it up Since 2012,

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NALC has gotten about $15,000 annually

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in colas as a result of our cola clause.

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During that same period,
UPS got about 2,500.

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It's a huge difference in payouts.

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When you compare contracts,
it's important to really take into effect

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the total amount of colas
versus general wage increases.

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When we talk about collective bargaining,
can you talk about the impact that

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it's had on the NALC and our members?

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Sure.

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I think if
you just look back in that period when we

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talked about collective begging,
it's just been a huge difference between

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the standard of living that carriers had
in the early 1970s versus now,

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and it's all attributable to
our right to collective bargaining.

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We basically moved from a job that put
people as basically working poor, many

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big cities in New York City, carriers
in the '60s and '70s, early '70s,

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couldn't qualify for welfare benefits.

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The pay was so low.

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But winning that strike and winning
the right to collective bargaining

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moved the ladder carrier
job solidly into the middle class.

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And I just Looking back between 1971 and

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2023, thanks to collective bargaining,

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there were 140 separate wage increases
negotiated over the last 53 years.

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There were 56 general increases
There were 82 cost of the living

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adjustments and two pay upgrades.

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We only had one year
in that whole period in which we didn't

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get at least one wage increase.

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That came out of back in 2012, during

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the Great session as a result of the DAS

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arbitration, we actually had a year,
basically a wage freeze for a year.

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But in every other year, we've had
at least one general increase, and

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usually one general increase and two So
a typical year for most of our history,

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there have been three increases a year.

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And that's just very unusual, not only
among American workers in general,

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but even among unionized workers to have

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such a steady set of increases over time.

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It's allowed us to maintain
the purchasing power of our wages at

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a time when a lot of working class people
lost ground as the economy has become

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more and more on equal over time.

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Having that right to bargain has just

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made all the difference in the world.

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To give you a real sense of it,
if you look When we look back at

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the time of the 1970 postal strike,
the letter carriers were part

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of the general schedule of the federal
government, and we were a GS5 employees,

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so general schedule, grade five employees.

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At the time, we made the same pay as other
GS5 employees of the federal government.

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If you look what's happened over
that history, if you look at the top step

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now of GS5 federal employees,
their annual salary is $49,000,

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just a little over $49,000 annually.

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Our top step, thanks to collective
bargaining, is $75,000.

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In $75,000, $2,000.
$1,99.

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Obviously, this is before
the tenetive agreement.

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That sums up really the power
and value of collective bargaining.

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The annual difference in pay
is nearly $25,000 annually.

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It's a 50% improvement in pay
versus our pre-bargaining history.

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Now, even in six, of course, the
federal government does have locality pay

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in some of the biggest cities.

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But even after you take that into account,
For example, in San Francisco,

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letter carriers make $15,000 more

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annually than the top step of grade five

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for the rest of the federal government.

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The difference in New York
is $18,000 annually, and the difference

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in Boston is $20,000 annually.

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So even when you take into account
locality pay, you can see the ability

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00:14:51,745 --> 00:14:56,300
to negotiate your wages and to have
collective bargaining has just made a

234
00:14:56,325 --> 00:15:01,735
huge difference in the standard of living
of letter areas all across the country.

235
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,720
And that doesn't count all the
other benefits of collective bargaining.

236
00:15:04,745 --> 00:15:11,100
The fact that you have an empowered voice
in the workplace where workers can,

237
00:15:11,125 --> 00:15:16,240
if they have a grievance with
their managers or their supervisors that

238
00:15:16,265 --> 00:15:20,420
they have a right to union representation
and they have due process rights.

239
00:15:20,445 --> 00:15:26,180
That doesn't count all the improvements
in overtime and penalty overtime

240
00:15:26,205 --> 00:15:31,600
and work hour guarantees, scheduling, all
the things that we now take for granted

241
00:15:31,625 --> 00:15:38,100
in our contract have all developed over
five decades of collective bargaining.

242
00:15:38,125 --> 00:15:44,580
It's had a tremendously positive effect
for our members and our union.

243
00:15:44,605 --> 00:15:46,460
A lot of good stuff there, Jim.

244
00:15:46,485 --> 00:15:50,240
We'll get in into the comparability
debate, and I know that's been

245
00:15:50,265 --> 00:15:52,180
around a lot on social media.

246
00:15:52,205 --> 00:15:55,820
Can you talk about the structure
and how we get to that point

247
00:15:55,845 --> 00:15:58,375
on what comparability means?

248
00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:58,800
Sure.

249
00:15:58,825 --> 00:16:03,700
I mean, As a famous arbitrator once
said, that comparability is like beauty.

250
00:16:03,725 --> 00:16:05,540
It's in the eye of the beholder.

251
00:16:05,565 --> 00:16:08,880
It's always been a huge debate
in our collective bargaining.

252
00:16:08,905 --> 00:16:13,020
It's really a core of collective
bargaining is what does that mean?

253
00:16:13,045 --> 00:16:16,440
The reason it's important
is that it's actually built

254
00:16:16,465 --> 00:16:19,220
into the Postal Reorganization Act.

255
00:16:19,245 --> 00:16:26,080
The Postal Service was given a mandate in
that law that it should pay its workers

256
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:32,380
comparable compensation to comparable
levels of work in the private sector.

257
00:16:32,405 --> 00:16:39,260
So it sounds simple, but it's actually
a quite complicated debate.

258
00:16:39,285 --> 00:16:45,880
But over time, in the first few rounds
of bargaining, the parties just agreed

259
00:16:45,905 --> 00:16:52,460
that we should be paid like other large
unionized workforces in the country.

260
00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:58,280
But by the time, by the end of the 1970s,
there was a huge gap opened up between

261
00:16:58,305 --> 00:17:02,560
the Postal Service and its unions
about what does comparability mean?

262
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:10,520
For us, we had traditionally
looked at comparable unionized jobs.

263
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,960
The Pulsa Service over time
started shifted over towards looking

264
00:17:14,985 --> 00:17:18,770
at comparable workers in terms
of the characteristics of workers,

265
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,770
how much education they had,
training, tenure, that thing.

266
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:29,080
When we started going, there was a period

267
00:17:29,105 --> 00:17:32,160
of time between 1984 and 1999, where

268
00:17:32,185 --> 00:17:36,240
almost every contract went to interest
arbitration, and it was all over

269
00:17:36,265 --> 00:17:38,770
this fight over comparability.

270
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,460
Initially, we actually lost the argument
in the 1984 interest arbitration

271
00:17:43,485 --> 00:17:44,700
with Clark Kerr.

272
00:17:44,725 --> 00:17:48,330
He concluded the Postal Service
claimed that they were over...

273
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,140
That basically, letter carriers
and other postal employees were overpaid

274
00:17:52,165 --> 00:17:54,220
compared to comparable workers.

275
00:17:54,245 --> 00:17:58,530
Clark Kerr agreed and called for
a period of what he called moderate

276
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,680
restraint, meaning he wanted
the postal wages to grow more slowly

277
00:18:02,705 --> 00:18:06,660
than private sector wages for a while
to bring them back in alignment.

278
00:18:06,685 --> 00:18:12,120
We never agreed with that finding,
but it did serve as a restraint

279
00:18:12,145 --> 00:18:15,290
on our wage growth during the 1990s.

280
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:22,320
Since that time, when the Kerr Award came
out, we were actually bargaining with

281
00:18:22,345 --> 00:18:25,860
the APW as a joint bargaining committee.

282
00:18:25,885 --> 00:18:29,500
Since 1994, we've negotiated
our own contracts.

283
00:18:29,525 --> 00:18:33,660
We've never lost that argument
since with the interest arbitrator,

284
00:18:33,685 --> 00:18:36,530
but it's always something we battle over.

285
00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,570
Just bringing it to the modern
day, I think most of our members

286
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,920
have a very practical, common sense
understanding and comparability.

287
00:18:44,945 --> 00:18:47,440
We often, it seems pretty
straightforward to us.

288
00:18:47,465 --> 00:18:51,480
We think of comparable workers
as the package car drivers

289
00:18:51,505 --> 00:18:53,290
for United Parcelservice.

290
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,400
And that's always been a big part
of our argument in interest arbitration,

291
00:18:57,425 --> 00:19:02,250
as we look at their wages and our wages,
and we've tried to keep within

292
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,250
striking distance of their pay levels.

293
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:06,960
But even that can be...

294
00:19:06,985 --> 00:19:12,220
Even when we get into arbitration,
even if the Postal Service will

295
00:19:12,245 --> 00:19:15,840
engage on our definition comparability.

296
00:19:15,865 --> 00:19:21,050
They often will point to other delivery
workers, mainly FedEx, which essentially

297
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,420
use contract workers, or Amazon.

298
00:19:23,445 --> 00:19:27,660
Increasingly, Amazon is now the largest
delivery workforce in the country.

299
00:19:27,685 --> 00:19:29,010
They're non-union.

300
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,680
They work for small contractors,
and their pay is much, much lower

301
00:19:32,705 --> 00:19:37,480
than the letter carriers
and the Postal Service employees.

302
00:19:37,505 --> 00:19:42,440
So it's a very important issue.

303
00:19:42,465 --> 00:19:44,810
It gets arbitrated every single time.

304
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,775
There are certain issues
in arbitration that always

305
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:48,700
come up, and that's one of them.

306
00:19:48,725 --> 00:19:53,900
What is the comparability standard
being complied with?

307
00:19:53,925 --> 00:19:59,290
And so both parties invest
a lot of energy and effort

308
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,140
to make their case on that issue.

309
00:20:02,165 --> 00:20:05,400
Can you get into the changes
to the workforce structure that we've

310
00:20:05,425 --> 00:20:08,735
gotten through collective bargaining
and interest arbitration?

311
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:09,240
Sure.

312
00:20:09,265 --> 00:20:14,740
That's another big issue that comes up,
is the structure of our workforce.

313
00:20:14,765 --> 00:20:19,530
And If you go look at that whole history
of interest arbitration,

314
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,600
it's one of the central issues.

315
00:20:22,625 --> 00:20:25,680
Initially, even before a poster
reorganization, there was always

316
00:20:25,705 --> 00:20:29,770
a small non-career workforce

317
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:33,600
employed by the Postal Service, which

318
00:20:33,625 --> 00:20:36,570
used to be known as casual employees.

319
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,980
That practice goes back 100 years.

320
00:20:40,005 --> 00:20:43,560
But once we had a collective

321
00:20:43,585 --> 00:20:47,090
bargaining rights and we formalized

322
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:50,570
the structures of our bargaining unit.

323
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,460
This is something that's
always been in flux.

324
00:20:53,485 --> 00:21:00,295
Initially, casuals, I think we
had a 5% limit on casuals for most

325
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:00,560
in the 1970s and the 1970s.

326
00:21:00,585 --> 00:21:06,120
But when we got in the 1980s, the Postal
Service, especially during periods

327
00:21:06,145 --> 00:21:10,720
of financial stress, they looked
to save money by raising the percentage

328
00:21:10,745 --> 00:21:14,040
of non-union, non-career employees.

329
00:21:14,065 --> 00:21:17,180
It's come up over and over again.

330
00:21:17,205 --> 00:21:20,530
First in the early 1990s,
when they were doing...

331
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:26,080
When we were going through a major
automation program, when we switched over

332
00:21:26,105 --> 00:21:31,460
to delivery point sequencing,
there was a push by the Postal Service,

333
00:21:31,485 --> 00:21:35,400
knowing that they were going to
be able to, after automation,

334
00:21:35,425 --> 00:21:38,940
use fewer letter carriers,
if you have fewer routes,

335
00:21:38,965 --> 00:21:44,420
they really pushed to create what was
called transitional employees, TEs.

336
00:21:44,445 --> 00:21:49,080
That was was a central fight
of the 1991 interest arbitration

337
00:21:49,105 --> 00:21:51,260
before Richard Mittenthall.

338
00:21:51,285 --> 00:21:55,200
It was a period a lot like
we've experienced in recent years.

339
00:21:55,225 --> 00:22:00,040
There was a period when the Congress
was putting huge obligations

340
00:22:00,065 --> 00:22:06,420
on the Postal Service to eliminate
indirect subsidies to the Postal Service.

341
00:22:06,445 --> 00:22:11,740
It created big financial losses,
and that led the Postal Service to

342
00:22:11,765 --> 00:22:14,090
try to create these TEs.

343
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:20,320
We lost initially in the 1991 arbitration,

344
00:22:20,345 --> 00:22:23,920
but we spent the next 10 years gradually

345
00:22:23,945 --> 00:22:27,860
getting rid of them, trying to get rid
of the TEs, which we eventually

346
00:22:27,885 --> 00:22:30,140
was successful in doing.

347
00:22:30,165 --> 00:22:33,780
But then those same pressures returned.

348
00:22:33,805 --> 00:22:38,050
And so there was a new fight
in the mid 2000, mid-aughts.

349
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,520
We had a huge fight
on contract delivery service.

350
00:22:40,545 --> 00:22:45,320
The Pulse Service started outsourcing
new delivery to these, what they call

351
00:22:45,345 --> 00:22:47,380
contract delivery service.

352
00:22:47,405 --> 00:22:49,380
And it really spread like wildfire

353
00:22:49,405 --> 00:22:59,800
in 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004, 2004 fight

354
00:22:59,825 --> 00:23:06,330
back, and eventually won that battle
to get rid of contract delivery service.

355
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:10,520
Then, of course, more recently,
everyone's aware of is we've had

356
00:23:10,545 --> 00:23:13,460
the creation of city carrier assistance.

357
00:23:13,485 --> 00:23:15,760
Again, this came at a period of...

358
00:23:15,785 --> 00:23:20,920
At the time of the Great Recession
in 2008, 2009, it was just

359
00:23:20,945 --> 00:23:24,500
a devastating period financially
for the Postal Service.

360
00:23:24,525 --> 00:23:29,160
We lost 30% of our mail volume
because that recession really

361
00:23:29,185 --> 00:23:33,020
struck at the Every part of
the mail-generating parts of the economy

362
00:23:33,045 --> 00:23:38,220
is real estate and banking, people
who were big, heavy users of the mail.

363
00:23:38,245 --> 00:23:42,420
Almost within a few years,
we lost 30% of our volume,

364
00:23:42,445 --> 00:23:45,420
and it created huge financial losses.

365
00:23:45,445 --> 00:23:49,090
That's when it's very difficult to be
an interest arbitration because

366
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:53,940
a big part of what the Postal Service will
argue before an arbitrator is

367
00:23:53,965 --> 00:23:58,020
that they just don't have the ability
to pay wage increases when they're

368
00:23:58,045 --> 00:24:01,980
losing money like they were at that time.

369
00:24:02,005 --> 00:24:06,810
And so as a result, we went from
about three and a half % casuals

370
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:13,500
at the time to about 20 % CCAs
as a result of the DASA Award.

371
00:24:13,525 --> 00:24:18,880
And so that was a big And that's really
that creation and what to do about it has

372
00:24:18,905 --> 00:24:24,760
really been the main focus of the last
three rounds of bargaining,

373
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:31,330
including the one that's still pending
right now is what What should be,

374
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,080
how many CCAs there should be,
what should be their pay, et cetera.

375
00:24:36,105 --> 00:24:42,400
So these workforce structure issues
are very tricky, and they're at the core

376
00:24:42,425 --> 00:24:44,290
of almost every round of bargaining.

377
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,680
And then Layered on all that,
there's always this huge function

378
00:24:49,705 --> 00:24:52,050
of push for flexibility.

379
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,600
What percentage should be part-time?

380
00:24:53,625 --> 00:24:55,900
What percentage should be full-time?

381
00:24:55,925 --> 00:24:59,560
And depending on the operational needs
of the postal service,

382
00:24:59,585 --> 00:25:03,020
they'll for arbitrators
to give them more flexibility.

383
00:25:03,045 --> 00:25:09,880
The union pushes back to try to make sure
that people have jobs where their hours

384
00:25:09,905 --> 00:25:14,280
are predictable, that they can build,
handle their family life

385
00:25:14,305 --> 00:25:18,780
and balance their needs
of their families with their work lives.

386
00:25:18,805 --> 00:25:24,520
So workforce structure is always
an incredibly important, not only

387
00:25:24,545 --> 00:25:28,920
a cost factor for the Postal Service, but
a quality of life factor for our members.

388
00:25:28,945 --> 00:25:33,330
And that's That's something that we deal
with just in every round of bargaining.

389
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:39,415
Can you talk about the external forces
against the NALC and the Postal Service

390
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:40,480
over the last 20 years?

391
00:25:40,505 --> 00:25:44,330
I know you just mentioned
the PAEA and the recession.

392
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:46,140
Can you just get Can you
give us a little bit more?

393
00:25:46,165 --> 00:25:47,200
Sure.
Yeah.

394
00:25:47,225 --> 00:25:54,330
The period, really since
the 2011 contract was determined,

395
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:57,720
we didn't resolve that arbitration

396
00:25:57,745 --> 00:26:02,140
with the DAS panel until early 2013.

397
00:26:02,165 --> 00:26:06,180
But we've referred to this
as the era of crisis bargaining.

398
00:26:06,205 --> 00:26:12,860
The Postal Service has been
in a huge financial bind, really.

399
00:26:12,885 --> 00:26:17,900
Partially, it was created
by Congress as a result of the PAEA.

400
00:26:17,925 --> 00:26:24,000
That's when, as part of that legislation,
Congress required the Postal Service

401
00:26:24,025 --> 00:26:28,050
to start prefunding
future retiree health benefits.

402
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,020
Basically, funding retiree health
as if it were a pension.

403
00:26:32,045 --> 00:26:35,480
Basically, that's not done in
any other sector of the economy.

404
00:26:35,505 --> 00:26:38,220
No other federal workers do it.

405
00:26:38,245 --> 00:26:43,940
No private sector workers are required to
do it under ERISA or anything like that.

406
00:26:43,965 --> 00:26:47,920
It had a huge negative effect
on the Postal Service, really

407
00:26:47,945 --> 00:26:52,260
every year up until 2021,
when we finally got it repealed.

408
00:26:52,285 --> 00:26:57,760
But it was basically a five and a
half billion dollar hit every year on the

409
00:26:57,785 --> 00:27:02,175
Postal Service, and it was put in place
at the the very same time that basically

410
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,480
the economy, the floor of the economy
dropped out with the great recession.

411
00:27:05,505 --> 00:27:10,570
So it was a perfect storm
of financial crisis.

412
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,480
And that really has a big impact on
what happens in bargaining and certainly

413
00:27:14,505 --> 00:27:16,900
what happens in interest arbitration.

414
00:27:16,925 --> 00:27:22,120
But it's really been a period for about
between 2007

415
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:30,420
and 2021, about 85 % of all
the Postal Services financial losses

416
00:27:30,445 --> 00:27:36,400
could be attributed to the prefunding
battle, which is an external factor

417
00:27:36,425 --> 00:27:44,000
that really set the table in a bad way
for us for the last three contracts.

418
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,140
Unfortunately, right at the end, right
when we finally got out from underneath

419
00:27:49,165 --> 00:27:55,620
the prefunding burden, we got just
slammed by the COVID-19 pandemic.

420
00:27:55,645 --> 00:27:56,880
So that's this period.

421
00:27:56,905 --> 00:28:00,660
It was two frame with two
of the worst recessions in history.

422
00:28:00,685 --> 00:28:05,280
And we lost another 20 % of our volume
as a result of the COVID pandemic.

423
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,320
So it's just whenever you're
in bargaining, you're at the mercy

424
00:28:10,345 --> 00:28:14,620
of what's happening in the labor market
and the economy as a whole.

425
00:28:14,645 --> 00:28:17,460
And That makes collective bargaining
a real challenge.

426
00:28:17,485 --> 00:28:21,720
And I don't think there's ever been
a period in our history more challenging

427
00:28:21,745 --> 00:28:27,760
than the last, really the last three
or four contracts have been.

428
00:28:27,785 --> 00:28:31,090
In some ways, it's when the union is
at its best, because

429
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:34,940
you have to realize without collective
bargaining,

430
00:28:34,965 --> 00:28:40,560
and this happened all over the economy
when these recessions hit, workers,

431
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,380
they not only lost jobs,
but they took pay cuts,

432
00:28:45,405 --> 00:28:49,980
they lost their pensions, they lost
health benefit contributions.

433
00:28:50,005 --> 00:28:55,240
When you have a union there
to fight back and to limit losses

434
00:28:55,265 --> 00:29:01,980
in tough times and to make improvements
and recover as times get better,

435
00:29:02,005 --> 00:29:06,700
that's why it's so important to have
that right to collective bargaining.

436
00:29:06,725 --> 00:29:11,460
It gives you a way to respond
to these challenging conditions.

437
00:29:11,485 --> 00:29:15,700
Can you get into the transformational
change of the Postal Service with the

438
00:29:15,725 --> 00:29:21,895
Delivering for America plan and the loss
of mail volume and how they're adapting?

439
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:22,600
Yeah.

440
00:29:22,625 --> 00:29:25,920
I mean, the Postal Service
throughout its history, it's actually

441
00:29:25,945 --> 00:29:27,700
had to constantly change.

442
00:29:27,725 --> 00:29:32,040
If you look at this, the long sweep of
history, when the post office department

443
00:29:32,065 --> 00:29:38,050
was initially set up in our country, this
year, next year in 2025, is going to be

444
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,260
the 250th anniversary of the post office.

445
00:29:41,285 --> 00:29:45,160
Its initial role was largely
as a communications network.

446
00:29:45,185 --> 00:29:52,380
It was a pre telegraph,
pre-telephone world, in which

447
00:29:52,405 --> 00:29:56,940
people were main source of communications
was through letter mail.

448
00:29:56,965 --> 00:30:03,840
And that gradually evolved by the By
the end of the 19th century, as the 20th

449
00:30:03,865 --> 00:30:08,560
century came about, the postal service
became more and more, especially as

450
00:30:08,585 --> 00:30:14,460
technology changed, became more and more
of a business services utility, almost.

451
00:30:14,485 --> 00:30:16,840
We became a key part
of the financial system.

452
00:30:16,865 --> 00:30:19,330
People paid their bills through the mail.

453
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,760
Tens of trillions of dollars
in payments would go through

454
00:30:22,785 --> 00:30:27,700
the mail routinely for mortgages
and car payments and utility bills.

455
00:30:27,725 --> 00:30:32,560
And as, particularly later in the 20th
century, the Postal Service became a

456
00:30:32,585 --> 00:30:35,700
major marketing channel for advertisers.

457
00:30:35,725 --> 00:30:40,840
This is a very cost-effective,
very lucrative way

458
00:30:40,865 --> 00:30:44,500
to generate business for companies.

459
00:30:44,525 --> 00:30:49,640
By the end of the 20th century, there was
very little personal communications

460
00:30:49,665 --> 00:30:53,180
going on, but a lot of business
was going through mail.

461
00:30:53,205 --> 00:30:56,840
Then with the arrival
of the Internet in the 21st century,

462
00:30:56,865 --> 00:30:58,740
that's all changing again.

463
00:30:58,765 --> 00:31:04,680
Little by little, And, virtually, all the
financial mail in the payments mail has

464
00:31:04,705 --> 00:31:06,800
been drifting out of the postal service.

465
00:31:06,825 --> 00:31:09,175
We still do quite a lot.

466
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,570
Tens of billions of dollars
go through the mail every day.

467
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:19,080
But there's just been a general move
towards electronic substitution.

468
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,120
And, fortunately, the flip side
of that is that the Internet also really

469
00:31:24,145 --> 00:31:31,570
created an absolute boom in the
e-commerce sector and package delivery.

470
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,760
And so the Postal Service, that's
what we're in the midst of right now.

471
00:31:34,785 --> 00:31:39,440
That's what this Delivering for America
plan really is about, is it's reflecting

472
00:31:39,465 --> 00:31:42,280
the fact that our letter mail volume

473
00:31:42,305 --> 00:31:46,900
is down by about 50 % Our package volume

474
00:31:46,925 --> 00:31:49,540
is up, up almost 200 %.

475
00:31:49,565 --> 00:31:54,240
I think in 2012, marketing mail
became the single largest volume

476
00:31:54,265 --> 00:31:57,540
of first class mail, stopped being
our largest volume of mail.

477
00:31:57,565 --> 00:32:02,980
And then in 2019, the largest The largest
source of revenue for the Postal Service

478
00:32:03,005 --> 00:32:06,090
is now shipping in packages.

479
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,570
We're up to about 35 or 36 billion
dollars a year in package revenue.

480
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,020
So we're in this huge change.

481
00:32:14,045 --> 00:32:20,320
The Postal Services This network of
processing and sorting plants were really

482
00:32:20,345 --> 00:32:22,980
built for an age of letter mail.

483
00:32:23,005 --> 00:32:29,520
And so they have a huge excess capacity
for letter mail, sorting and processing.

484
00:32:29,545 --> 00:32:33,290
And they need to build capacity
for package sorting and processing.

485
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,120
And that's what these sort
and delivery centers are all about.

486
00:32:36,145 --> 00:32:41,680
It's shifting to adapt our network
to this new reality, is that we have

487
00:32:41,705 --> 00:32:45,560
a much more varied mix of mail now.

488
00:32:45,585 --> 00:32:49,960
We have a lot of marketing mail,
still a good chunk of first-class mail,

489
00:32:49,985 --> 00:32:52,720
but a huge surge in packages.

490
00:32:52,745 --> 00:32:56,500
And that's where the industry is going.

491
00:32:56,525 --> 00:33:02,090
And so this makes bargaining, actually
for both sides, both for management

492
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:06,900
and for the postal unions,
we're all adapting to these changes

493
00:33:06,925 --> 00:33:10,050
as we negotiate new contracts.

494
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:15,330
It's a huge, complicated and difficult
transition that we're going through

495
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:21,440
But again, it's so valuable
for postal workers to have unions at the

496
00:33:21,465 --> 00:33:24,570
table to manage these difficult times.

497
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,380
Talking about those difficult times,
can you just get in a little bit

498
00:33:28,405 --> 00:33:32,480
the victories and some of the reasons
why it's important that we had the NALC

499
00:33:32,505 --> 00:33:35,780
negotiating and the collective bargaining
in these times?

500
00:33:35,805 --> 00:33:40,000
Yeah.
I look back, going back both during the

501
00:33:40,025 --> 00:33:45,040
great recession and the pandemic, just

502
00:33:45,065 --> 00:33:50,080
looking at other unions, they really went
through an incredibly difficult time.

503
00:33:50,105 --> 00:33:52,660
I think of my dad's union, the UAW.

504
00:33:52,685 --> 00:33:58,480
They had just an incredibly difficult
period in which two of the main big three

505
00:33:58,505 --> 00:34:00,460
automakers went into bankruptcy.

506
00:34:00,485 --> 00:34:03,940
The UAW lost their colas
as a result of that.

507
00:34:03,965 --> 00:34:09,360
They had two-tier wage schedules
implemented as a result of the auto

508
00:34:09,385 --> 00:34:11,620
restructuring during the Obama years.

509
00:34:11,645 --> 00:34:15,940
They basically had to take over
the financial responsibility

510
00:34:15,965 --> 00:34:17,860
for retiree health.

511
00:34:17,885 --> 00:34:22,520
Big three auto workers basically
transfer that obligation

512
00:34:22,545 --> 00:34:24,080
to the unions, essentially.

513
00:34:24,105 --> 00:34:26,620
The unions actually managed
it really quite well.

514
00:34:26,645 --> 00:34:30,020
Even for unionized workers,
it's been a difficult period.

515
00:34:30,045 --> 00:34:33,460
I think in that context,
the NALC did very well during

516
00:34:33,485 --> 00:34:35,580
this period of crisis bargaining.

517
00:34:35,605 --> 00:34:39,520
I think President Rolando had probably
the three most challenging contracts

518
00:34:39,545 --> 00:34:40,860
in our history.

519
00:34:40,885 --> 00:34:44,760
But even if you look at,
we took our hits in the DASA war.

520
00:34:44,785 --> 00:34:47,460
That's when we got the huge CCA workforce.

521
00:34:47,485 --> 00:34:52,160
But we fought off, thanks to having
a union and thanks for having the ability

522
00:34:52,185 --> 00:34:58,575
to argue for it in interest arbitration,
we avoided a pure two-tier where you have

523
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,080
lower starting pay and of top pay.

524
00:35:00,105 --> 00:35:06,800
We essentially came out of the DASA Award
with basically emerging two-tier,

525
00:35:06,825 --> 00:35:11,130
meaning they lowered the starting pay,
but we maintained the top pay.

526
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:16,120
At the end, when people reach top pay,
it doesn't matter when you were hired,

527
00:35:16,145 --> 00:35:18,260
you still have that same top pay.

528
00:35:18,285 --> 00:35:23,040
That was a huge victory for us, not only
because it raises career earnings

529
00:35:23,065 --> 00:35:29,300
for our members, but also it maintains
the value of their pension benefits,

530
00:35:29,325 --> 00:35:32,320
their retirement income, et cetera.

531
00:35:32,345 --> 00:35:36,720
Even during tough times, sometimes
it's during tough times when the union

532
00:35:36,745 --> 00:35:42,580
is most valuable, even when
there's painful hits that we've taken,

533
00:35:42,605 --> 00:35:44,400
we have the ability to roll back.

534
00:35:44,425 --> 00:35:46,420
We've been doing that ever since.

535
00:35:46,445 --> 00:35:51,650
Since the DASA Award,
we've been slowly raising CCA pay,

536
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:57,800
and we've got to the point
where we have automatic conversions.

537
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,340
We've got better health benefits for CCAs.

538
00:36:02,365 --> 00:36:06,960
We even got this agreement
that we've used for the all career

539
00:36:06,985 --> 00:36:09,560
workforce model in certain cities.

540
00:36:09,585 --> 00:36:15,800
We've actually reduced the number of CCAs
from about 40,000 down to 28,000, And I

541
00:36:15,825 --> 00:36:20,400
know the current leadership wants to keep
making progress on that, so eventually

542
00:36:20,425 --> 00:36:23,100
get back to an all career workforce.

543
00:36:23,125 --> 00:36:27,255
But this is, sometimes it's hard
to see it when you're going

544
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,120
through these painful times.

545
00:36:28,145 --> 00:36:32,760
But just from the vantage
in my long career, I feel like unions

546
00:36:32,785 --> 00:36:35,880
really, really earn their stripes
during the tough times.

547
00:36:35,905 --> 00:36:42,060
And I think back during the COVID crisis,
there's so much to be proud of

548
00:36:42,085 --> 00:36:46,060
our members, the way they stepped up
and serve the country,

549
00:36:46,085 --> 00:36:49,580
and helped us get through a really rough
time when everybody was

550
00:36:49,605 --> 00:36:56,200
sheltering at home, delivering goods,
delivering public health information

551
00:36:56,225 --> 00:37:02,020
for the CDC, delivering masks,
and testing kits.

552
00:37:02,045 --> 00:37:06,240
But I also think of how proud
we should be as a union, how we just

553
00:37:06,265 --> 00:37:12,040
mobilize to protect our members and
to really restructure the way the work

554
00:37:12,065 --> 00:37:15,420
was done during the COVID pandemic.

555
00:37:15,445 --> 00:37:20,170
Really, served our members well.

556
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,615
As a result, our members
serve the country so well.

557
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:24,120
Okay.

558
00:37:24,145 --> 00:37:26,655
We gave everyone a lot of history here
about collective bargaining.

559
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:27,520
That's what the class is.

560
00:37:27,545 --> 00:37:30,680
But most of our members want to know
What about me and what about

561
00:37:30,705 --> 00:37:32,860
this collective bargaining agreement?
Sure.

562
00:37:32,885 --> 00:37:34,295
It's really up to the members.

563
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,460
Whatever the members decide
is going to be their decision.

564
00:37:36,485 --> 00:37:40,400
I'll just tell you a bit about what I've
been doing in this round of bargaining

565
00:37:40,425 --> 00:37:42,340
as a consultant for the union.

566
00:37:42,365 --> 00:37:47,640
I was brought in to help prepare
for interest arbitration, which is unique

567
00:37:47,665 --> 00:37:51,640
in our way of bargaining, is that
every round of bargaining, you have

568
00:37:51,665 --> 00:37:55,855
to essentially prepare for interest
arbitration, even as you're bargaining.

569
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,020
Because you don't know if
you're going to get an agreement.

570
00:37:58,045 --> 00:38:03,240
And so I came in working with our law firm
in New York, Cohen, Weis, and Simon,

571
00:38:03,265 --> 00:38:07,380
which is really the preeminent
labor law firm in the country.

572
00:38:07,405 --> 00:38:11,120
We've worked together on six
different arbitrations that I've worked

573
00:38:11,145 --> 00:38:12,940
with them on, and they're the best.

574
00:38:12,965 --> 00:38:16,920
But we had to build our case
not knowing whether or not

575
00:38:16,945 --> 00:38:19,500
we would reach a tentative agreement.

576
00:38:19,525 --> 00:38:23,500
That was my focus on it.

577
00:38:23,525 --> 00:38:28,170
Basically, what that means
is you basically recruit experts.

578
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,860
During interest arbitration,
it It's more like a legal proceeding.

579
00:38:31,885 --> 00:38:35,600
It looks a lot like a court case.

580
00:38:35,625 --> 00:38:39,300
You have panels of lawyers
who call witnesses and experts.

581
00:38:39,325 --> 00:38:44,340
They offer testimony and present data
and offer formal exhibits.

582
00:38:44,365 --> 00:38:48,640
Then the lawyers take turns examining
and cross-examining the witnesses.

583
00:38:48,665 --> 00:38:52,300
Well, that's what I've been working
on in this round of bargaining is hiring

584
00:38:52,325 --> 00:38:58,480
witnesses, a whole slew of economists
to talk about the various issues

585
00:38:58,505 --> 00:38:59,980
that you have to battle over.

586
00:39:00,005 --> 00:39:03,040
You mentioned them earlier,
comparability, what's happening

587
00:39:03,065 --> 00:39:06,420
in the labor market, what
other comparable workers are getting.

588
00:39:06,445 --> 00:39:11,500
But we also found labor historians to
help us deal with situations like this.

589
00:39:11,525 --> 00:39:15,000
A couple of sociologists
that have been working on

590
00:39:15,025 --> 00:39:20,020
the delivery industry in particular,
heat safety experts, et cetera.

591
00:39:20,045 --> 00:39:25,060
Meanwhile, while we're getting all this
professional experts lined up,

592
00:39:25,085 --> 00:39:30,960
the staff of the NALC, and we have this
extraordinary group of of letter carrier

593
00:39:30,985 --> 00:39:37,060
staffers up in Washington who put together
panels of the letter carriers

594
00:39:37,085 --> 00:39:38,780
to testify on all sorts of issues.

595
00:39:38,805 --> 00:39:44,680
So we have panels of CCAs, we have panels
of senior carriers, we have people

596
00:39:44,705 --> 00:39:47,460
dealing with heat safety problems.

597
00:39:47,485 --> 00:39:52,480
We have the panels on talking about
the difficulties and the unfairness

598
00:39:52,505 --> 00:39:57,200
of the way CCAs have been overworked,

599
00:39:57,225 --> 00:40:02,000
or we have expert panels on uniforms

600
00:40:02,025 --> 00:40:04,260
and the rising cost of uniforms.

601
00:40:04,285 --> 00:40:08,500
All that has to be put together,
really, even as you're negotiating,

602
00:40:08,525 --> 00:40:10,340
and that's what we've done.

603
00:40:10,365 --> 00:40:15,380
Basically, whatever the members decide in
this ratification vote, if they decide to

604
00:40:15,405 --> 00:40:17,440
accept this agreement, that's great.

605
00:40:17,465 --> 00:40:20,040
Then my work on that will be done.

606
00:40:20,065 --> 00:40:23,820
But if not, we are ready to go
to interest arbitration if that's what

607
00:40:23,845 --> 00:40:26,100
the members decide they want us to do.

608
00:40:26,125 --> 00:40:32,130
And so I have to say that this round
of bargaining is really quite unique

609
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,680
in that in some ways,
the macroeconomic environment

610
00:40:35,705 --> 00:40:40,170
for workers, probably coming out of
the pandemic, was probably never better.

611
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:45,440
There was a real reset in the labor
market, particularly for workers

612
00:40:45,465 --> 00:40:49,960
like ours, people who work in person
doing physical labor, can't

613
00:40:49,985 --> 00:40:54,210
work remotely like you did during the...

614
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:57,340
A lot of unions made real strong gains.

615
00:40:57,365 --> 00:40:59,680
I think the auto workers have made a lot.

616
00:40:59,705 --> 00:41:04,840
They've covered a lot of those huge
concessions they had to make during the

617
00:41:04,865 --> 00:41:08,900
great recession when they auto-rescued
during the Obama administration.

618
00:41:08,925 --> 00:41:12,100
And so the union contracts
have been very strong.

619
00:41:12,125 --> 00:41:15,200
Ups got a very strong
agreement because they had a

620
00:41:15,225 --> 00:41:18,060
very credible threat to strike.

621
00:41:18,085 --> 00:41:24,095
They got really big increases because they
didn't have the cola clause that we did.

622
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,300
And so if you just looked around
what was happening in the labor market,

623
00:41:27,325 --> 00:41:30,130
this would be a great time
to go to interest arbitration.

624
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,000
But on the flip side is,
we probably never...

625
00:41:33,025 --> 00:41:38,580
The Postal Service is among its weakest
points in its history financially.

626
00:41:38,605 --> 00:41:44,200
They've had very big losses even after
we got rid of the pre-funding burden

627
00:41:44,225 --> 00:41:50,080
in 2021, they've had two really tough
years coming out of the pandemic

628
00:41:50,105 --> 00:41:52,580
because of a huge surge in inflation.

629
00:41:52,605 --> 00:41:57,480
They had a six and a half billion
dollar loss in 2023 and a nine

630
00:41:57,505 --> 00:42:00,620
and a half billion dollar loss in 2024.

631
00:42:00,645 --> 00:42:05,690
It makes for a very
challenging environment.

632
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:12,120
But whatever the union needs,
if the members decide they wanted to try

633
00:42:12,145 --> 00:42:16,240
to do better in an interest arbitration,
the union will go forward just

634
00:42:16,265 --> 00:42:21,780
like it always has to put on
the best possible case that we can.

635
00:42:21,805 --> 00:42:25,540
I think that's what
the members can expect from us.

636
00:42:25,565 --> 00:42:27,775
We'll do whatever it takes.

637
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:29,780
All right, Jim, thank
you for your time today.

638
00:42:29,805 --> 00:42:33,260
I I just want to remind everybody
from the ballot committee

639
00:42:33,285 --> 00:42:35,120
and what their words were.

640
00:42:35,145 --> 00:42:38,600
If you haven't received your ballot yet,
make sure you make a phone call

641
00:42:38,625 --> 00:42:40,060
to NALC headquarters.

642
00:42:40,085 --> 00:42:44,940
Nalc headquarters' phone number is
202-393-918.

643
00:42:44,965 --> 00:42:52,060
0614, and you can call between 9:00 AM
and 4:30 PM Eastern Standard Time.

644
00:42:52,085 --> 00:42:57,260
Again, that number is 202-393-0614.

645
00:42:57,285 --> 00:43:00,880
If you get the answering machine, make
sure you leave a message with your full

646
00:43:00,905 --> 00:43:05,980
name, your branch, and your phone number,
so we can make sure you get a call back

647
00:43:06,005 --> 00:43:07,460
so that you get your ballot.

648
00:43:07,485 --> 00:43:10,740
Ballets need to be in by January 13th.

649
00:43:10,765 --> 00:43:14,820
Please, this is part of your union duty.
Make sure you do that.

650
00:43:14,845 --> 00:43:15,920
Jim, why have you here?

651
00:43:15,945 --> 00:43:21,420
I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about
the big win that the NALC had on HR 82.

652
00:43:21,445 --> 00:43:25,380
I know prior to you retiring,
you had a lot to do with this

653
00:43:25,405 --> 00:43:26,615
getting off the ground.

654
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:28,580
Do you just want to talk
about it for a little bit?

655
00:43:28,605 --> 00:43:29,880
Sure, I'd be happy to.

656
00:43:29,905 --> 00:43:32,560
It was really a great victory.
I was laughing.

657
00:43:32,585 --> 00:43:36,300
I was talking to an old friend that
used to work for the Mailhandler's Union,

658
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:41,480
and we were talking about how we started
lobbying this issue together when he

659
00:43:41,505 --> 00:43:45,140
worked at the NALC back in the late '80s.

660
00:43:45,165 --> 00:43:51,040
I remember going up and lobbying
a guy who was then the staff director

661
00:43:51,065 --> 00:43:54,280
for the Senate Finance Committee,
which had jurisdiction over

662
00:43:54,305 --> 00:43:55,900
Social Security benefits.

663
00:43:55,925 --> 00:43:57,960
He's now on television every night.

664
00:43:57,985 --> 00:44:00,980
He's Lawrence O'Donnell from MSNBC.

665
00:44:01,005 --> 00:44:02,660
And we lobbied him to try to...

666
00:44:02,685 --> 00:44:05,960
That was within a few years
of when those changes to the

667
00:44:05,985 --> 00:44:08,300
Social Security law happened.

668
00:44:08,325 --> 00:44:12,140
We were trying, even then,
trying to get these provisions repealed.

669
00:44:12,165 --> 00:44:14,260
Let's just go over what they are.

670
00:44:14,285 --> 00:44:18,840
The government pension offset basically
required, basically,

671
00:44:18,865 --> 00:44:24,520
to eliminate spousal benefits for letter
carriers who would normally get payments

672
00:44:24,545 --> 00:44:28,240
as spouses or as a survivor
if they were married to somebody

673
00:44:28,265 --> 00:44:30,820
who worked in the private
sector under Social Security.

674
00:44:30,845 --> 00:44:36,720
For letter carriers hired under the Civil
Service Retirement System, they were not

675
00:44:36,745 --> 00:44:39,020
getting credit for Social Security.

676
00:44:39,045 --> 00:44:42,920
That government pension offset
came in in 1977 and basically

677
00:44:42,945 --> 00:44:47,820
wiped out spousal benefits for most
people, or reduced them, or sometimes,

678
00:44:47,845 --> 00:44:50,340
they eliminate all of the benefits.

679
00:44:50,365 --> 00:44:56,300
Then in 1983, under a really unfair
characterization, Congress

680
00:44:56,325 --> 00:45:00,360
adopted a bunch of amendments
to the Social Security Act, and one

681
00:45:00,385 --> 00:45:04,440
of the provisions was something called
the Windfall Elimination Provision.

682
00:45:04,465 --> 00:45:07,360
This is the name gives
you the unfairness of it.

683
00:45:07,385 --> 00:45:11,500
They called it a windfall that somehow
letter carriers collecting benefits

684
00:45:11,525 --> 00:45:15,120
on their own work record
as private sector workers under

685
00:45:15,145 --> 00:45:19,295
Social Security employment,
either before they were letter carriers or

686
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,640
after they retired,
they worked in the private sector.

687
00:45:21,665 --> 00:45:26,060
In many cases, even with second jobs
that they had while they were working

688
00:45:26,085 --> 00:45:29,210
as a letter carrier, they
earned Social Security credits.

689
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:31,800
But Congress just
considered that double-dipping.

690
00:45:31,825 --> 00:45:35,840
They called it a windfall that
postal employees were getting both a CSRS

691
00:45:35,865 --> 00:45:39,340
benefit and a Social Security benefit.

692
00:45:39,365 --> 00:45:41,400
Our complaint all along was,
wait a minute.

693
00:45:41,425 --> 00:45:46,960
Private sector workers get pensions,
too, and their Social Security benefits

694
00:45:46,985 --> 00:45:53,400
are not reduced
because they get this private pension.

695
00:45:53,425 --> 00:45:58,020
We just didn't think it was fair
to do that to CSRS retirees.

696
00:45:58,045 --> 00:46:03,160
That windfall elimination
and the GPO have been really a thorn

697
00:46:03,185 --> 00:46:05,740
in our side for more than 30 years.

698
00:46:05,765 --> 00:46:11,280
Now, with the HR 82 being signed
into law, that Social Security Fairness

699
00:46:11,305 --> 00:46:15,380
Act, which it took decades
of organizing and lobbying him.

700
00:46:15,405 --> 00:46:20,740
And all thanks goes to the members who got
their members of Congress to sign on,

701
00:46:20,765 --> 00:46:26,200
got over that filibuster threshold
in the Senate, and convinced basically

702
00:46:26,225 --> 00:46:29,800
two-thirds of both
houses of Congress eventually supported

703
00:46:29,825 --> 00:46:31,300
the deal with these provisions.

704
00:46:31,325 --> 00:46:36,320
And so now, going forward,
all our members receiving CSRS benefits

705
00:46:36,345 --> 00:46:41,340
are going to get an increase in their
Social Security benefits going forward.

706
00:46:41,365 --> 00:46:42,920
And so it's just a huge victory.

707
00:46:42,945 --> 00:46:49,120
I think the total figure was $196 billion
over the next 10 years will now be paid

708
00:46:49,145 --> 00:46:53,840
out in Social Security benefits that
would have been eliminated otherwise.

709
00:46:53,865 --> 00:46:59,200
It's just a tribute
to the perseverance of the Union

710
00:46:59,225 --> 00:47:01,860
and having that voice on Capitol Hill.

711
00:47:01,885 --> 00:47:06,440
Thanks to all the members who
helped and contributed to the

712
00:47:06,465 --> 00:47:11,720
Letter Carrier Political Fund and did
the grassroots lobbying it takes to get

713
00:47:11,745 --> 00:47:13,500
a big change like that made.

714
00:47:13,525 --> 00:47:15,400
Got it perfectly there.

715
00:47:15,425 --> 00:47:20,375
Bipartisanship, and everyone always
asked, who does our money go to and where

716
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:21,760
does our grassroots efforts go to?

717
00:47:21,785 --> 00:47:23,580
It went to both sides
of the aisle on this one.

718
00:47:23,605 --> 00:47:27,820
So big win for the union, big win
for our retirees and the NALC,

719
00:47:27,845 --> 00:47:30,140
our union in action there.

720
00:47:30,165 --> 00:47:32,260
Thanks for all your efforts, Jim.

721
00:47:32,285 --> 00:47:33,455
Yeah, it's my pleasure.

722
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,295
It's great to be here with you today.
Thanks.

723
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:35,920
Okay.

724
00:47:35,945 --> 00:47:38,700
Just want to get over
a few more things here.

725
00:47:38,725 --> 00:47:43,015
I know we had a big increase in the union
meetings, people going to union meetings,

726
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,620
talking about the tentative agreement.

727
00:47:44,645 --> 00:47:48,000
Don't let that be the last union meeting
you go to until

728
00:47:48,025 --> 00:47:50,020
the next tentative agreement we get.

729
00:47:50,045 --> 00:47:53,420
Make sure you get involved in the union,
get to your union meetings.

730
00:47:53,445 --> 00:47:58,880
I know you have a busy life out there,
but digging out one hour every month to

731
00:47:58,905 --> 00:48:00,920
get to your meeting, It's so important.

732
00:48:00,945 --> 00:48:04,935
We can't get things done without people
being involved and being educated

733
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,100
and informed, so make sure
you get to your union meeting.

734
00:48:07,125 --> 00:48:11,100
I also want to thank everyone
for this year and in this season.

735
00:48:11,125 --> 00:48:15,940
No one knows how hard letter carriers
work unless you've done the jobs.

736
00:48:15,965 --> 00:48:20,500
For me and the NALC, just thank you for
all your hard work and professionalism

737
00:48:20,525 --> 00:48:24,460
at the branch level, on your work room
floor, and out on your routes,

738
00:48:24,485 --> 00:48:25,775
deliver in the mail.

739
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,280
Nobody does it better than letter
carriers, and just want to

740
00:48:28,305 --> 00:48:32,620
thank you for that and make sure
all have a healthy and safe New Year.

741
00:48:32,645 --> 00:48:34,140
Happy holidays, everybody.

742
00:48:34,165 --> 00:48:36,015
That's the end of the show.

743
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:39,210
Thank you for listening to this episode
of You are the Current Resident.

744
00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:42,460
Please subscribe to the podcast
so that you don't miss an episode,

745
00:48:42,485 --> 00:48:45,860
and please share the podcast
with our NALC brothers and sisters.

746
00:48:45,885 --> 00:48:49,920
Make sure you follow the NALC on social
media on Facebook, on the app formerly

747
00:48:49,945 --> 00:48:52,380
known as Twitter, Instagram, and threads.

748
00:48:52,405 --> 00:48:56,560
You can find links to our accounts
in the episode description on Twitter.

749
00:48:56,585 --> 00:48:59,375
You can follow President Renfro
at Brian Renfro, 19.

750
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:02,380
May your steward be by your side
and may your union have your back.

751
00:49:02,405 --> 00:49:04,680
Thanks for listening.
Happy New Year, and we'll see you soon.