Molecular engineering and battery recycling: developing new technologies in quantum, medicine and energy

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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Home to nearly 10,000,000

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people, the Chicago

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Metropolitan

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Area or Chicagoland

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is one of the largest urban areas in

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The US.

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A scientific

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powerhouse,

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the region is home to two

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US national labs,

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Argonne and Fermilab,

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as well as top notch academic institutions,

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including the University of Chicago

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and Northwestern

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University.

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Physics World's Margaret Harris was in Chicagoland recently

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and met two scientists.

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One who leads a national

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collaborative center focused on the future of battery

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recycling,

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And the other who leads an institution

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dedicated to molecular

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engineering.

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Those conversations

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are coming up after this message about an

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event that's sponsored by the Institute of Physics,

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which also brings you Physics World.

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On the May,

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The Economist

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is hosting

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commercializing

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Quantum Global twenty twenty five in London.

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Participants will join global leaders from business,

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science, and policy

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for two days of real world insights into

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quantum's future.

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In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,

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communications,

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and sensing,

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and discover how these technologies are shaping industries,

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economies,

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and global regulation.

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You can register for the event at events.economist.com.

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First up, Margaret speaks with the physicist

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Nadia Mason.

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She's dean of the Pritzker School of Molecular

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Engineering

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at the University of Chicago,

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which focuses on quantum engineering,

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materials for sustainability,

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and immuno

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engineering.

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Here's that conversation.

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So first question is, you know, molecular engineering

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is kind of a a new concept.

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How would you define this term, and how

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does that sort of explain

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all the things that we're going on here?

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So molecular engineering is, it's new. It's it's

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an exciting way, I think, of putting together

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different fields that have the same goals.

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So

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the idea is that you're you're building things

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from the from the molecular level up. And

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it's something that you couldn't do years ago

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because you didn't have the ability to manipulate

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individual molecules in the same way or even

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image individual molecules. You know, the revolution in

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nanotechnology in the seventies and eighties and nineties

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is really what led today to our ability

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to even think about how do we

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engineer and manipulate,

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combine

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things at this really basic molecular level

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to to move toward applications that that utilize

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them. You know, I'm I come from physics,

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so I think about atoms.

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You know? And

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we still don't have the ability, really, I

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mean, to to put together atoms in a

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way that leads to functional devices. We can

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do it with scanning tunneling microscopy, but we

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really can't do it at the single atomic

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level. Right? And before, we couldn't even do

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that at the molecular level, but now we

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can with different capabilities in in in chemical

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engineering, in materials engineering, in physics. By combining

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all of those things, we can now think

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about, okay, how do we take a molecule

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and functionalize it in just the right way

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to lead to the next,

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you know, therapeutic that helps cure cancer? How

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do we take a

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nano sized bit of of material, which you

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can think of on the molecular scale, and

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engineer defects to make the next generation of

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quantum sensor?

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How do we take

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materials that form the backbone of our most

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common plastics and

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modify them on really the atom by atom

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level to make them more recyclable?

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These are things I I think we just

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couldn't do, but now we know how. So

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that those those form the basis of molecular

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engineering. It's it's it's a way of of

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thinking about

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engineering the future

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from a small scale

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to the largest.

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And so I think you you've got, I

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hear the Pritzker School of Nucklesh Yes. Got

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three different sort of fields, I think. So

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we're talking mostly about energy and quantum today

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Yeah. Yeah. The ones that are closest to

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physics. But I guess there's also immunoengineering.

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That's right.

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What do you see as the connections between

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these areas? How does that what's that kind

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of cross pollination that you see between them?

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Yeah. Great question. Well, I mean, at at

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UChicago, we thought we wanted we didn't wanna

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create a traditional school of engineering that had

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departments that were just defined by whatever terms

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were important in the early nineteen hundreds, like,

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you know, mechanics. I mean, it's still important,

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but it's not that doesn't that doesn't define

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a problem. It defines an an area of,

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you know, a very broad area of training.

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So the idea is today, how do you

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think about the problems we wanna solve and

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train for those? And so that's how we

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chose these three areas. There were things that

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were both relevant right now that were that

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we could build on existing strengths at Chicago

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UChicago and in the community, but also that

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we thought were going to be really important

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for the future. So quantum engineering is is

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now. It's happening. This is something that when

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I started in grad school, it was just

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quantum mechanics, and now we're we have companies

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and we're designing devices. And, you know, engineering,

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same thing. This is related to really the

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fundamentals of how you manipulate molecules for for

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biology and for therapeutics and applications in the

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biological sphere.

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And especially immunology is something that even in

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the past ten years, it's become more fear

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that the immune system affects almost every disease

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that we that we have. I think something

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like eighty percent of deaths are actually immune

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system disorders

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that, you know, that something breaks down and

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then then affects the immune system, which is

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what causes your organs to fail and you

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to die. And then same thing with molecular

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engineering, for energy and sustainability. That is, of

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course, one of the biggest problems we have

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out there. Now the great thing is because

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we're thinking all about molecules manipulating,

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having things interact across the board, across what

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are really disparate fields,

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what you'd think are disparate fields,

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our faculty and researchers can use similar techniques

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to work you know, to inform each other.

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They can they can think about applications

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that they might not have thought of otherwise.

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You know, so one example is I was

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just in the lab of one of of

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two of our faculty who are in the

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quantum group, but also in the immuno group,

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because one of them, Peter Maurer, is using

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quantum sensors.

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So,

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vacancy sensors and, you know, vacancies in in

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materials, and now even proteins in biological systems

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as quantum states to image biological systems. And

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so the student who I was talking to

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in his lab yesterday is a is a

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biophysicist

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who is actually, like, making,

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you know, fluorophores. And, there is some green

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thing that was like an algae somewhere. I

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don't know. I don't even know what they

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were doing with it, but it was funny

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seeing it in a lab that had dilution

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refrigerators and lasers and things like that because

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they're they're not just, like, trapping and moving

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things around. They're actually using proteins as quantum

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sensors to, you know, to

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image what's happening in individual cells to see

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what, you know, ion channels and things are

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doing for for that can affect specific biological

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functions. And so, you know, another one of

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our faculty, Sihang Huang, is looking at

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bioadhesives. So he's confining material science and looking

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at how to make adhesives, but functionalizing

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them to work on organs with immunoreceptors

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and things that make them

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both compatible, but also can, you know, suppress

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very specific reactions when you use these adhesives

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in situ in your body. And he's one

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of the first people to ever do this.

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And, you know, again, they're working he's he

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was working directly with other faculty who just

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have who know the immunotherapies. And in the

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Quantum Lab, they're working directly with, people who

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work on therapeutics. So I think there's you

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know, we always talk about how exciting science

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happens at the interface, but here, you know,

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we're all in the same building. And I've

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personally never seen

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so many

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actual collaborations between people in what seems like

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really disparate fields, but are just breaking boundaries

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all the way. So super exciting, I think,

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for us, but also

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for our collective future.

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How does your own research fit into that?

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You know, you've been talking about other people's

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research. Yeah. How do you see your your

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own research? Yeah. Tell us about that. Yeah.

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So I'm a I'm I'm trained as a

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quantum physicist.

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All of my all of my degrees are

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in physics, and I focus on correlated electronic

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systems. So systems where the electrons interact strongly

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or nanoscale systems where you get new behaviors

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because things are are so

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small. I'm really more on the on the

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quantum material side, which is looking at

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at

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how do you you know, what what new

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functionalities can you get out of materials when

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you think about them in the in the

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quantum regime.

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These are, you know, this is directly relevant

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to a lot of our quantum engineering that's

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going on where we're thinking about, you know,

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what are what are the next generation of

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quantum sensors? What are the what are the

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next you know, how do we connect classical

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computers

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to quantum computers? How do we make quantum

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computer computers more

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more viable by increasing their coherence on the

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long on long time scales?

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You know, I think I I do the

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my group does the does the legwork to

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think of the next generation of of materials

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and applications and phenomena that can feed into

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all of this sort of quantum engineering. Now

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you ask how it bridges. It bridges because

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I think of materials as backbone of everything.

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Right? If you you if you have if

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you have a new material,

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then you can find all sorts of uses

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and applications for it. So you can think

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of these new, we work on graphene, which

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is a purely two dimensional material. That's something

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that people in quantum care about because it's

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an electronic material, but also in, you know,

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our immuno engineers are using this as as

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scaffolding, as a flexible scaffolding for different types

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of of, of functionalized membranes, for example. So,

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you know, the material backbone is another thing

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that crosses all of all of these things.

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And you talk about, you know, some trends

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and developments in the field to know. What

272
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is what is coming up that you're most

273
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excited about

274
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five years in the future, three years in

275
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the future? Yeah.

276
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I I touched on this a little already,

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but I really think it is the intersection

278
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of these different fields. I think that that

279
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the intersection of biology and quantum is something

280
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that that our our faculty have been exploring

281
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extremely successfully that I think is is viable,

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that we will have a quantum sensor that

283
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can look inside a cell and will have

284
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direct applications for

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for therapeutics,

286
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in a way that we just couldn't see

287
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thing at a in a scale we couldn't

288
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see things before.

289
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I think that's, you know, that's five years

290
00:10:37,365 --> 00:10:38,985
down the line. I think that'll be revolutionary.

291
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As I mentioned, materials people who are also

292
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combining materials and medicine in a in in

293
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a way that comes from that from working

294
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with deeply people who are deeply knowledgeable

295
00:10:49,250 --> 00:10:51,809
about the medicine and working directly with them

296
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to make things that not only, like, you

297
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know, kind of work inside a body, but

298
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make it better. Right? They can now heal

299
00:10:58,049 --> 00:10:58,995
things but work.

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You know, in the in the area of

301
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of climate and energy, which is incredibly important

302
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for the future,

303
00:11:06,595 --> 00:11:07,495
you know, we

304
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we will have new battery technologies, for example.

305
00:11:10,674 --> 00:11:14,220
There's new, non lithium batteries coming online, sodium

306
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batteries, for example, that'll be cheaper, that'll be

307
00:11:17,019 --> 00:11:20,320
faster, that'll be more efficient. We're working directly

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on those.

309
00:11:21,740 --> 00:11:22,399
I think

310
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I I'm excited to see

311
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how we will continue

312
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to address

313
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our needs for

314
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we we have a new institute for for

315
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climate and and sustainable growth, and so I've

316
00:11:36,065 --> 00:11:38,804
been thinking a lot about sustainable growth. And,

317
00:11:38,899 --> 00:11:40,340
you know, so we we do have a

318
00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:42,179
need for growth in our society, but, of

319
00:11:42,179 --> 00:11:44,580
course, globally as well. Right? We we all

320
00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:47,700
deserve higher living standards globally, not just in

321
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:49,879
this country, why we deserve to have healthy,

322
00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:52,575
happy lives. That doesn't mean more money or

323
00:11:52,575 --> 00:11:53,075
technology,

324
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but to get there,

325
00:11:55,455 --> 00:11:57,615
we will need to equalize the amount of

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resources and technology that are available. We need

327
00:12:00,014 --> 00:12:01,855
to do that in a sustainable way. And

328
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to get there, we need to invent those

329
00:12:04,174 --> 00:12:05,934
technologies to make them cheap enough, to make

330
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them effective enough, to make them available enough

331
00:12:09,209 --> 00:12:11,450
to help lift everyone in in the world,

332
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not just The US, but everywhere. And so

333
00:12:13,450 --> 00:12:15,450
it's a long winded way of saying, I'm

334
00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:16,970
excited because I think we can get there.

335
00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:18,490
I think that the next five to ten

336
00:12:18,490 --> 00:12:20,730
years, because we have to, there'll be an

337
00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:24,065
explosion in in developing those sort of technologies

338
00:12:24,365 --> 00:12:26,684
across across the board. I really you know?

339
00:12:26,684 --> 00:12:28,605
And okay. I'm I'm biased toward the three

340
00:12:28,605 --> 00:12:30,205
areas that we focus on, but I think

341
00:12:30,205 --> 00:12:32,684
that these are areas that are are going

342
00:12:32,684 --> 00:12:34,365
to continue to explode in in the buy

343
00:12:34,445 --> 00:12:36,524
in the biomedical space, in the energy space,

344
00:12:36,524 --> 00:12:37,745
in the quantum space,

345
00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:39,720
and in the climate space also.

346
00:12:40,259 --> 00:12:42,339
Yeah. You talked about, you know, getting there

347
00:12:42,339 --> 00:12:43,539
in the next five to ten years. What

348
00:12:43,539 --> 00:12:45,299
are the big challenges? What are the barriers

349
00:12:45,299 --> 00:12:47,079
you have to overcome to

350
00:12:47,459 --> 00:12:49,179
to produce a quantum sense of the Yeah.

351
00:12:49,220 --> 00:12:51,720
Incense in Yeah. In the human body to

352
00:12:52,154 --> 00:12:54,794
develop sustainable materials. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know,

353
00:12:54,794 --> 00:12:55,754
this brings us all the way back to

354
00:12:55,754 --> 00:12:57,914
molecular engineering in the materials space. Sometimes we

355
00:12:57,914 --> 00:12:59,674
just need to jump in materials. We need

356
00:12:59,674 --> 00:13:02,074
to be need to understand materials better to

357
00:13:02,074 --> 00:13:04,794
improve their properties. So in quantum, one of

358
00:13:04,794 --> 00:13:07,600
the biggest limitations is that we we can't

359
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,779
maintain our quantum wave functions. It's the coherence

360
00:13:09,839 --> 00:13:12,240
times. Those are often materials problems. We have

361
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,240
to know what's what is preventing what is

362
00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,419
making the these quantum states unstable,

363
00:13:16,959 --> 00:13:19,120
and and how do we engineer that away.

364
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,075
And we're making strides toward that, but I

365
00:13:21,075 --> 00:13:22,355
think we have to do a better job

366
00:13:22,355 --> 00:13:24,514
of that. And or how do we engineer

367
00:13:24,514 --> 00:13:26,434
around it to mitigate those effects, like error

368
00:13:26,434 --> 00:13:28,675
correction in quantum computing? We're making strides toward

369
00:13:28,675 --> 00:13:31,394
that too. But some of that is incremental

370
00:13:31,394 --> 00:13:32,995
strides that are necessary, and some of it

371
00:13:32,995 --> 00:13:34,754
is actually jumps in knowledge. You know? It

372
00:13:34,754 --> 00:13:36,730
it you can it's when I think about

373
00:13:36,730 --> 00:13:38,730
fundamental jumps, they can be in fundamental science,

374
00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:41,209
but you also need fundamental engineering jumps. They

375
00:13:41,209 --> 00:13:43,129
think back to the transistor and why we

376
00:13:43,129 --> 00:13:43,870
have microelectronics

377
00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:46,250
today. It was the invention of the transistor

378
00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:47,929
that was one big jump. But then the

379
00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:50,009
invention of the integrated circuit, which is really

380
00:13:50,009 --> 00:13:52,195
an engineering feat, was the next big jump

381
00:13:52,195 --> 00:13:53,794
that allowed us to go from something that

382
00:13:53,794 --> 00:13:55,394
was as big as our hand to something

383
00:13:55,394 --> 00:13:58,115
that, you know, as, you know, supercomputer in

384
00:13:58,115 --> 00:14:00,754
our pocket, basically. Right? Our our phones. Right?

385
00:14:00,754 --> 00:14:02,674
All these things. So so we need some

386
00:14:02,674 --> 00:14:04,529
of those, you know a lot of the

387
00:14:04,529 --> 00:14:06,290
fundamental jumps have been made, but we need

388
00:14:06,290 --> 00:14:07,970
some of those engineering jumps to be made.

389
00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:09,330
And I think across the board in in

390
00:14:09,330 --> 00:14:11,730
battery space too. You know, we know we

391
00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:13,250
know where we want to go, but what

392
00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:14,690
are the materials that allow us to do

393
00:14:14,690 --> 00:14:16,584
that? How do we actually connect them? How

394
00:14:16,584 --> 00:14:18,264
do we think in new ways? How do

395
00:14:18,264 --> 00:14:20,105
we just kinda free our brains and have

396
00:14:20,105 --> 00:14:22,424
those moments that, okay, we can we can

397
00:14:22,424 --> 00:14:24,345
do this or even just play around and

398
00:14:24,345 --> 00:14:26,745
discover suddenly that this works in a way

399
00:14:26,745 --> 00:14:27,644
that was unexpected?

400
00:14:28,184 --> 00:14:30,480
We we need more of those moments to

401
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:31,919
build the future. And I think that as

402
00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:34,019
long as we keep supporting basic

403
00:14:34,399 --> 00:14:34,899
engineering

404
00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:37,039
and science, we'll get there. But we do

405
00:14:37,039 --> 00:14:39,139
need to keep pushing in those directions.

406
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:40,580
So

407
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,679
you talk about the the need to improve

408
00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:45,975
materials, the need to improve the the basic

409
00:14:46,214 --> 00:14:48,454
functionality. But after that, of course, there's a

410
00:14:48,454 --> 00:14:51,574
challenge of taking those things into commercialization and

411
00:14:51,574 --> 00:14:53,574
eventually to market. How what are some of

412
00:14:53,574 --> 00:14:55,654
the ideas that you have to overcome that

413
00:14:55,654 --> 00:14:57,654
that gap? Yeah. I think there's there's there's

414
00:14:57,654 --> 00:14:59,815
a broad understanding everywhere from the NSF up

415
00:14:59,815 --> 00:15:01,240
to the highest, you know, levels of government

416
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,940
and in the labs that we can't

417
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,480
it's not good enough to just invent something

418
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:06,759
in the lab, especially in the school of

419
00:15:06,759 --> 00:15:08,919
engineering. You really wanna get what you your

420
00:15:08,919 --> 00:15:11,240
idea to have effect, have impact. And to

421
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:12,200
do that, you have to get in the

422
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,804
hands of people who will use it. And

423
00:15:13,804 --> 00:15:14,924
to do that, you have to work with

424
00:15:14,924 --> 00:15:16,845
companies. You have to either start your own

425
00:15:16,845 --> 00:15:19,485
company that's gonna utilize these these devices and

426
00:15:19,485 --> 00:15:20,845
these things that you make or work with

427
00:15:20,845 --> 00:15:21,745
existing companies.

428
00:15:22,204 --> 00:15:25,024
We really believe in that. We've been, supporting

429
00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:26,784
faculty starting companies,

430
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,720
working working with companies, and working with industry

431
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:31,740
at every level, including having starting,

432
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,759
you know, networks that have industry come into

433
00:15:34,759 --> 00:15:36,840
our labs and tell us what their greatest

434
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,519
needs are and us tell them what we're

435
00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:40,200
working on and what's cutting edge and so

436
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:41,879
we can work together to bring things quickly

437
00:15:41,879 --> 00:15:44,904
to market. It's also important to just to

438
00:15:44,904 --> 00:15:47,004
understand that we face such big challenges

439
00:15:47,384 --> 00:15:50,125
that no one lab, no one

440
00:15:50,425 --> 00:15:53,085
school, no one university can do this alone.

441
00:15:53,225 --> 00:15:54,825
And one of the things that has really

442
00:15:54,825 --> 00:15:57,209
attracted me the most to being in Chicago

443
00:15:57,209 --> 00:15:59,549
and at the University of Chicago is that

444
00:16:00,169 --> 00:16:02,089
we've been able to participate in and really

445
00:16:02,089 --> 00:16:03,309
help create ecosystems

446
00:16:03,850 --> 00:16:04,350
that

447
00:16:04,809 --> 00:16:05,309
build

448
00:16:06,409 --> 00:16:09,129
industries and that build these connections between basic

449
00:16:09,129 --> 00:16:10,110
research and

450
00:16:10,504 --> 00:16:13,225
impact as efficiently as possible. So we work

451
00:16:13,225 --> 00:16:15,865
with the national labs very, very closely. We

452
00:16:15,865 --> 00:16:17,945
work with with companies. We work with the

453
00:16:17,945 --> 00:16:20,345
government. We work with the other universities across

454
00:16:20,345 --> 00:16:22,264
the state and across Midwest and and across

455
00:16:22,264 --> 00:16:24,320
the world even to make sure that we

456
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:25,379
create ecosystems

457
00:16:25,759 --> 00:16:26,500
that support

458
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:27,700
research,

459
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:28,660
products,

460
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,100
impact, and improve lives as efficiently as possible.

461
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,240
And we've done that in the quantum sphere

462
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,920
here in Chicago. I think we've we've really

463
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,840
helped make Chicago the the center of the

464
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,154
quantum world. This happened because of a big

465
00:16:40,154 --> 00:16:42,955
support from the government, the governor from especially

466
00:16:42,955 --> 00:16:45,195
the state government, governor Pritzker, has been incredibly

467
00:16:45,195 --> 00:16:48,075
supportive of quantum. We've worked really closely with

468
00:16:48,075 --> 00:16:50,715
our our state universities, University of Illinois, with

469
00:16:50,715 --> 00:16:53,230
Northwestern University, and with the labs, and been

470
00:16:53,230 --> 00:16:55,470
able to build something where quantum companies now

471
00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:57,410
want to come here to work with researchers,

472
00:16:57,790 --> 00:16:59,950
to build things, to test, to make sure

473
00:16:59,950 --> 00:17:02,029
that we can just get this technology furthered

474
00:17:02,029 --> 00:17:04,029
as as quickly as possible. And we wanna

475
00:17:04,029 --> 00:17:05,549
do that in the energy sphere. We wanna

476
00:17:05,549 --> 00:17:07,230
do that in the biosphere. We wanna make

477
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:08,894
sure that that we're

478
00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,994
having impact as efficiently as possible. And we're

479
00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:13,694
getting really good at that. So I'm I'm

480
00:17:13,755 --> 00:17:15,434
incredibly excited to see what happens in the

481
00:17:15,434 --> 00:17:16,795
next five years. So I think there'll there'll

482
00:17:16,795 --> 00:17:18,494
be a lot a lot of positive change.

483
00:17:19,434 --> 00:17:21,799
Elijah Mason, thank you very much. My pleasure.

484
00:17:28,819 --> 00:17:31,619
That was Nadia Mason of the University of

485
00:17:31,619 --> 00:17:32,119
Chicago

486
00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,720
in conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris.

487
00:17:36,734 --> 00:17:39,875
Now, Margaret speaks with Jeffrey Spangenberger,

488
00:17:40,815 --> 00:17:42,115
who leads the Materials

489
00:17:42,494 --> 00:17:45,634
Recycling Group at Argonne National Laboratory.

490
00:17:46,494 --> 00:17:48,835
They talk about the Resell Center,

491
00:17:49,220 --> 00:17:49,880
a national

492
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,799
collaboration of industry,

493
00:17:52,339 --> 00:17:52,839
academia,

494
00:17:53,299 --> 00:17:54,680
and national laboratories

495
00:17:55,220 --> 00:17:56,039
that Spangenberger

496
00:17:56,580 --> 00:17:57,080
leads.

497
00:17:57,539 --> 00:17:59,480
He explains how ReCell

498
00:17:59,779 --> 00:18:00,519
is advancing

499
00:18:00,820 --> 00:18:01,320
recycling

500
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,664
for current and future

501
00:18:03,965 --> 00:18:05,105
battery technologies.

502
00:18:13,005 --> 00:18:14,365
The first thing I wanted to ask, you

503
00:18:14,365 --> 00:18:16,309
know, just as when you're talking about battery

504
00:18:16,309 --> 00:18:17,830
recycling, what types of batteries are we talking

505
00:18:17,830 --> 00:18:19,029
about? Are we talking about the batteries in

506
00:18:19,029 --> 00:18:20,809
your phone, batteries in your car,

507
00:18:21,670 --> 00:18:22,650
both, everything?

508
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:23,450
Yeah.

509
00:18:24,230 --> 00:18:24,730
Specifically,

510
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:27,450
right now, we're focused on lithium ion batteries.

511
00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:31,204
Not lithium metal batteries, lithium ion batteries.

512
00:18:31,904 --> 00:18:33,505
But they can be in your car, in

513
00:18:33,505 --> 00:18:34,964
your EV, your hybrid,

514
00:18:35,585 --> 00:18:37,984
or they could be in your phone, your

515
00:18:37,984 --> 00:18:38,644
cell phone.

516
00:18:39,024 --> 00:18:40,964
They could also be in storage

517
00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:43,539
applications, so the grid

518
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,140
or your your house backup, things like that.

519
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,240
So how do you recycle a battery? Like,

520
00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:51,619
what goes into that process?

521
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:52,740
So

522
00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:56,000
the actual process of of a battery is

523
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:56,500
done

524
00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:59,994
more prominently in two different fashions. There's

525
00:19:00,615 --> 00:19:01,115
hydrometallurgical

526
00:19:01,654 --> 00:19:03,035
recycling, and there's pyrometallurgical

527
00:19:03,494 --> 00:19:03,994
recycling.

528
00:19:05,494 --> 00:19:06,315
In pyrometallurgical

529
00:19:06,775 --> 00:19:07,275
recycling,

530
00:19:07,815 --> 00:19:10,934
we use heat to essentially burn off with

531
00:19:10,934 --> 00:19:11,515
the organics,

532
00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:14,220
and then the metals are recovered

533
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:15,180
in,

534
00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:16,539
in the furnace.

535
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:19,259
And there's two fractions. There's,

536
00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,200
a metal alloy, which has a lot of

537
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,279
the great metals, and then the copper, the

538
00:19:24,279 --> 00:19:25,180
precious metals,

539
00:19:25,595 --> 00:19:26,875
which are not really in too much on

540
00:19:26,875 --> 00:19:28,714
a battery except maybe on a on a

541
00:19:28,714 --> 00:19:31,355
electric panel or something like that. But there

542
00:19:31,355 --> 00:19:33,275
is also a slag, and then that slag

543
00:19:33,275 --> 00:19:34,894
contains lithium metal,

544
00:19:35,355 --> 00:19:35,855
unfortunately,

545
00:19:36,234 --> 00:19:38,315
as well as aluminum. Those two are in

546
00:19:38,315 --> 00:19:38,974
in batteries.

547
00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:40,990
They can be recovered, but it's a little

548
00:19:40,990 --> 00:19:43,009
bit more difficult than they would be normally.

549
00:19:43,309 --> 00:19:43,809
So

550
00:19:44,430 --> 00:19:45,490
that's one of the

551
00:19:45,789 --> 00:19:47,170
the issues with pyro.

552
00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:49,630
That's not to say that pyro isn't good.

553
00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:51,549
There are a lot of good applications for

554
00:19:51,549 --> 00:19:52,049
pyro.

555
00:19:52,434 --> 00:19:54,994
And and there's not one hydro or pyro

556
00:19:54,994 --> 00:19:57,154
is not gonna take over the world in

557
00:19:57,154 --> 00:19:58,855
recycling. There are a lot of different

558
00:19:59,315 --> 00:20:00,695
pros and cons of each.

559
00:20:01,234 --> 00:20:03,174
In hydro metallurgic or recycling,

560
00:20:03,955 --> 00:20:04,615
you usually

561
00:20:04,994 --> 00:20:07,575
shred the battery to liberate the metals.

562
00:20:07,940 --> 00:20:10,420
Metals are typically what you're going after as

563
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:11,960
a number one material.

564
00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:13,960
You put it in acid.

565
00:20:14,819 --> 00:20:17,940
You dissolve the the metals, and then you

566
00:20:17,940 --> 00:20:18,440
can

567
00:20:18,819 --> 00:20:20,805
separate those metals out

568
00:20:21,285 --> 00:20:23,525
and and recover them and put them into

569
00:20:23,525 --> 00:20:25,625
new new products that way.

570
00:20:26,565 --> 00:20:28,085
So those are the two main ones. We

571
00:20:28,085 --> 00:20:29,045
also work,

572
00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:32,325
along with some other companies on direct recycling,

573
00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:34,105
which is a third type of recycling.

574
00:20:35,125 --> 00:20:37,589
There's also the other materials other than metals

575
00:20:37,589 --> 00:20:39,609
that you wanna get from recycling, plastics.

576
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:40,630
There's,

577
00:20:41,509 --> 00:20:43,349
fluorinated products, which we need to make sure

578
00:20:43,349 --> 00:20:44,570
we keep our eye on.

579
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:46,470
That would be in the polymers that are

580
00:20:46,470 --> 00:20:48,230
in the some of the polymers that are

581
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:49,930
in a a lithium ion battery.

582
00:20:50,855 --> 00:20:53,414
The electrolyte salt has fluorine in it. So

583
00:20:53,414 --> 00:20:54,875
these are all materials that,

584
00:20:55,174 --> 00:20:56,634
you know, should be dealt with.

585
00:20:57,255 --> 00:20:58,555
What else is in a battery?

586
00:20:59,255 --> 00:21:01,994
The anode. So the anode is typically graphite.

587
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,119
It it is a larger portion of the

588
00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,759
battery mass wise, and so we wanna we

589
00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:10,559
wanna reuse those materials as much as possible.

590
00:21:10,559 --> 00:21:11,220
In fact,

591
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:13,700
natural graphite is a critical material

592
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,315
that not many people think about. But and

593
00:21:17,315 --> 00:21:19,954
and there's both synthetic and graphite and and

594
00:21:19,954 --> 00:21:22,775
natural graphite in these batteries, so

595
00:21:23,315 --> 00:21:25,234
it's important that we recycle those as well

596
00:21:25,234 --> 00:21:26,994
and not just go after the money making

597
00:21:26,994 --> 00:21:27,494
metals.

598
00:21:28,434 --> 00:21:29,875
So how do you get to me it's

599
00:21:29,875 --> 00:21:32,115
kind of easy conceptually to imagine, okay, in

600
00:21:32,115 --> 00:21:33,789
some some way that with metal, you melt

601
00:21:33,789 --> 00:21:35,150
it down and then you work out what

602
00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:37,789
you know, there's various quite established processes for

603
00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:39,789
us to separate it out. How do you

604
00:21:39,789 --> 00:21:41,170
recycle something like

605
00:21:41,630 --> 00:21:43,070
graphite, or how do you recycle some of

606
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:45,070
the fluorinated compounds that you need to recycle,

607
00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:47,070
presumably because they they would otherwise get into

608
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:49,825
the environment to do bad things there. Right.

609
00:21:49,884 --> 00:21:51,904
Yeah. So with graphite, there's

610
00:21:52,365 --> 00:21:53,585
people working on it.

611
00:21:53,965 --> 00:21:56,205
The way that you process a battery can

612
00:21:56,205 --> 00:21:56,705
have

613
00:21:57,325 --> 00:21:59,085
I don't still wanna say good things happen

614
00:21:59,085 --> 00:22:01,164
to it, but maybe not bad things or

615
00:22:01,164 --> 00:22:02,765
bad things happen to it. Like, if you

616
00:22:02,765 --> 00:22:04,490
put graphite in in acid,

617
00:22:04,869 --> 00:22:06,230
a lot of times that makes it more

618
00:22:06,230 --> 00:22:08,549
difficult to reuse in new batteries. The the

619
00:22:08,549 --> 00:22:10,789
best way is to take the material and

620
00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:12,089
reuse it in a new battery.

621
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:14,809
Fix it, basically, rinse it off,

622
00:22:15,589 --> 00:22:17,130
refurbish it, if you will.

623
00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:19,325
It's not that easy, though.

624
00:22:19,625 --> 00:22:22,045
There are processes that make that part easier,

625
00:22:22,505 --> 00:22:24,105
but you can also use graphite for a

626
00:22:24,105 --> 00:22:26,505
lot of different material sources. So and that's

627
00:22:26,505 --> 00:22:28,904
good. And recycling, you know, it's really important,

628
00:22:28,904 --> 00:22:30,525
I think, to to try and

629
00:22:30,859 --> 00:22:32,299
close that loop. If it's in a car,

630
00:22:32,299 --> 00:22:33,920
put it back in a car. But sometimes,

631
00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,660
if you don't put it back into the

632
00:22:37,660 --> 00:22:38,640
original application,

633
00:22:40,059 --> 00:22:43,515
you still are relieving it from sourcing somewhere

634
00:22:43,515 --> 00:22:45,434
else for another product. Right? So maybe it

635
00:22:45,434 --> 00:22:46,795
doesn't go into a battery. Maybe it goes

636
00:22:46,795 --> 00:22:49,535
into a reductant or something in our furnace.

637
00:22:49,994 --> 00:22:50,815
With the

638
00:22:51,115 --> 00:22:52,015
the fluorines,

639
00:22:52,715 --> 00:22:53,295
I think

640
00:22:53,835 --> 00:22:54,894
that's a real challenge

641
00:22:55,259 --> 00:22:56,940
with with how we deal with that is

642
00:22:56,940 --> 00:22:58,799
they're in low quantities in a battery.

643
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:02,619
And pyro, actually, what happens is they're well,

644
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:03,920
they go up into the,

645
00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:06,720
exhaust, and they're captured and treated.

646
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:07,920
So,

647
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:09,519
so you collect them.

648
00:23:10,164 --> 00:23:10,904
In hydro,

649
00:23:11,684 --> 00:23:13,204
there's a lot of work that's going on

650
00:23:13,204 --> 00:23:15,384
now, especially with PFAS being a

651
00:23:15,684 --> 00:23:16,505
a big consideration.

652
00:23:17,204 --> 00:23:19,944
There's work to remove it. There's work to

653
00:23:20,164 --> 00:23:22,664
capture it when we're recycling it as well.

654
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,039
Why is it so important that we get

655
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:26,980
better at recycling batteries?

656
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,580
Yeah. Great question.

657
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:31,279
The the funny thing is on the other

658
00:23:31,279 --> 00:23:33,359
side of the lab, he's probably gonna be

659
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,359
talking about all the great work that's going

660
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:36,400
into making the batteries

661
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:37,859
the new batteries

662
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,660
better.

663
00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:40,525
And when you make a new battery better,

664
00:23:40,525 --> 00:23:43,744
it usually means cutting cost and improving performance.

665
00:23:44,525 --> 00:23:46,384
When you cut costs specifically,

666
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:48,705
it makes recycling

667
00:23:49,164 --> 00:23:49,985
more difficult

668
00:23:50,605 --> 00:23:53,184
because we need money on the back end

669
00:23:53,325 --> 00:23:54,545
to fund those processes.

670
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:56,710
So if you take all the valuable metals

671
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:58,150
out there, you take out the cost of

672
00:23:58,150 --> 00:23:58,890
the materials,

673
00:23:59,349 --> 00:24:01,750
it makes recycling harder. So that's why we

674
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:03,289
need to be better at recycling.

675
00:24:03,990 --> 00:24:05,930
And so it's important that we don't just

676
00:24:06,309 --> 00:24:07,184
work at this,

677
00:24:07,745 --> 00:24:08,644
find a solution,

678
00:24:09,265 --> 00:24:09,765
and

679
00:24:10,065 --> 00:24:12,625
call it good. We gotta continue to to

680
00:24:12,625 --> 00:24:14,705
improve because it's gonna be more difficult as

681
00:24:14,705 --> 00:24:16,565
we go down the road. Plus new chemistries,

682
00:24:17,424 --> 00:24:19,745
we always need to to work on what's

683
00:24:19,745 --> 00:24:22,144
what's coming down the road that we're gonna

684
00:24:22,144 --> 00:24:24,299
be seeing in our recycling plants.

685
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:26,680
What about the sort of supply chain aspect?

686
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:27,880
I mean, some of them some of these,

687
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,000
materials, particularly the metals, high value metals, it's

688
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,840
not just that it's expensive to develop and

689
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:34,440
it's there's a finite amount of them out

690
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,704
there, and they may not necessarily be in

691
00:24:36,944 --> 00:24:38,944
locations that are easy to get at. That's

692
00:24:38,944 --> 00:24:39,444
right.

693
00:24:39,744 --> 00:24:41,204
So, you know, The US

694
00:24:41,904 --> 00:24:42,404
is

695
00:24:42,704 --> 00:24:43,204
very

696
00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:46,544
low in quantities of these materials that go

697
00:24:46,544 --> 00:24:48,304
into the batteries. We get them from other

698
00:24:48,304 --> 00:24:50,890
countries, and it puts us at a security

699
00:24:50,890 --> 00:24:51,390
risk.

700
00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:52,430
So

701
00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:55,529
recycling is important from that perspective because we

702
00:24:55,529 --> 00:24:56,990
want to get these materials,

703
00:24:57,289 --> 00:24:59,610
buy them once from another country, get them

704
00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:01,130
here and keep them here and recycle them

705
00:25:01,130 --> 00:25:03,549
and keep them within our domestic boundaries.

706
00:25:04,015 --> 00:25:05,794
Another reason to recycle is

707
00:25:06,414 --> 00:25:06,914
because

708
00:25:07,454 --> 00:25:09,375
in some predictions, if we don't change our

709
00:25:09,375 --> 00:25:11,615
chemistries, we're gonna actually run out of the

710
00:25:11,615 --> 00:25:14,035
materials, not have enough to meet our projections.

711
00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:17,190
Cobalt, specifically, is really difficult. So we have

712
00:25:17,190 --> 00:25:19,109
to recycle those materials to make sure that

713
00:25:19,109 --> 00:25:20,169
we have them available

714
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:22,549
instead of just mining them, using them, and

715
00:25:22,549 --> 00:25:23,529
throwing them off.

716
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:27,109
What are the main challenges facing a center

717
00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:28,649
like this in trying to develop

718
00:25:29,025 --> 00:25:30,965
better ways of recycled batteries?

719
00:25:32,465 --> 00:25:33,605
I see. I think

720
00:25:34,224 --> 00:25:36,305
there's two answers that I wanna I wanna

721
00:25:36,305 --> 00:25:39,025
give to that. One is our objective is

722
00:25:39,025 --> 00:25:40,164
to help industry.

723
00:25:41,099 --> 00:25:42,559
We want industry to succeed.

724
00:25:43,099 --> 00:25:45,259
And so there's a lot of good challenges

725
00:25:45,259 --> 00:25:46,140
out there that are,

726
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:48,160
that we're excited to tackle.

727
00:25:48,940 --> 00:25:51,200
And so we do work with industry.

728
00:25:51,579 --> 00:25:54,619
We work together collaboratively with them to address

729
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:55,440
these challenges.

730
00:25:57,065 --> 00:25:58,924
The other aspect of that is

731
00:25:59,384 --> 00:26:01,484
and this gets back into the direct recycling.

732
00:26:02,744 --> 00:26:03,484
We'll do

733
00:26:03,945 --> 00:26:04,765
some more

734
00:26:05,224 --> 00:26:06,204
far out research.

735
00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:08,904
We'll look at some of the more challenging

736
00:26:08,904 --> 00:26:11,940
stuff that industry maybe doesn't wanna spend the

737
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:12,680
money on.

738
00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:16,440
And so we'll look at things like, originally,

739
00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:18,839
direct recycling was a very

740
00:26:19,460 --> 00:26:22,339
not well known. It was a not unknown,

741
00:26:22,339 --> 00:26:25,204
but not well known method of recycling batteries.

742
00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:26,785
That's you you have a battery and you

743
00:26:26,785 --> 00:26:28,505
make another battery with it. A little bit

744
00:26:28,625 --> 00:26:30,464
to be more specific on that, I guess,

745
00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:31,365
I would say

746
00:26:31,904 --> 00:26:34,384
direct recycling is to take it could be

747
00:26:34,384 --> 00:26:36,704
any material, but we focus on the cathode

748
00:26:36,704 --> 00:26:37,444
of the battery.

749
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:39,440
So we take the cathode,

750
00:26:40,059 --> 00:26:41,980
and instead of putting in an acid and

751
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,119
dissolving the metal

752
00:26:43,660 --> 00:26:45,900
into metal ions or putting it in a

753
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:48,380
furnace and melting it down into a a

754
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,759
reduced metal alloy,

755
00:26:50,619 --> 00:26:52,160
we keep it as a cathode.

756
00:26:53,054 --> 00:26:54,974
We fix it while it's still a cathode.

757
00:26:54,974 --> 00:26:57,554
It's never changing its cathode structure,

758
00:26:58,414 --> 00:27:00,654
and we're making new cathode out of it

759
00:27:00,654 --> 00:27:02,174
so it can go into a new battery.

760
00:27:02,174 --> 00:27:03,875
And the reason that's so important

761
00:27:04,494 --> 00:27:05,234
is because

762
00:27:05,774 --> 00:27:08,680
to make cathode, which is the most expensive

763
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:09,660
part of a battery,

764
00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,440
it has two portions. There's the materials that

765
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,860
go into it, and then there's the processing,

766
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,700
the manufacturing cost of it.

767
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,080
When you dissolve in an acid or melt

768
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:20,299
it in a in a furnace,

769
00:27:20,625 --> 00:27:22,404
you have to take those materials

770
00:27:23,025 --> 00:27:25,265
and remanufacture that into a cathode, and that

771
00:27:25,265 --> 00:27:27,345
can be a substantial amount of the money

772
00:27:27,345 --> 00:27:28,244
to make cathode.

773
00:27:28,865 --> 00:27:31,265
So if you don't do that, the value

774
00:27:31,265 --> 00:27:32,005
is basically,

775
00:27:32,509 --> 00:27:33,570
in in some cases,

776
00:27:34,350 --> 00:27:35,950
half of the cost of a battery may

777
00:27:35,950 --> 00:27:38,529
be from raw materials. Sometimes 10%

778
00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:41,470
is just is the raw materials, and 90%

779
00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,570
is the processing cost. And so

780
00:27:44,269 --> 00:27:46,610
huge opportunity for cost gains,

781
00:27:47,414 --> 00:27:49,115
improve economy and environmental,

782
00:27:49,735 --> 00:27:50,235
impacts.

783
00:27:51,255 --> 00:27:52,634
The the website mentions

784
00:27:53,015 --> 00:27:56,315
that Resell is working to advance recycling technologies

785
00:27:56,375 --> 00:27:59,174
for current and future battery chemistries. Mhmm. What

786
00:27:59,174 --> 00:27:59,914
is Resell?

787
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,099
Good question.

788
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,900
So resell is is a federally funded program

789
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:10,119
that is a a collaboration of four national

790
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:10,619
laboratories,

791
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:12,779
Argonne National Laboratory,

792
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,619
Oak Ridge National Laboratory,

793
00:28:15,315 --> 00:28:17,414
the National Renewable Energy Laboratory,

794
00:28:17,714 --> 00:28:19,255
and Idaho National Laboratory.

795
00:28:19,714 --> 00:28:21,634
We also have some universities that are doing

796
00:28:21,634 --> 00:28:23,875
work with us. But they have these four

797
00:28:23,875 --> 00:28:24,774
focus areas,

798
00:28:25,154 --> 00:28:25,974
direct recycling,

799
00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:27,894
advanced resource recovery,

800
00:28:28,950 --> 00:28:31,529
design for sustainability, and modeling and analysis.

801
00:28:32,069 --> 00:28:34,470
And all of these focus areas are used

802
00:28:34,470 --> 00:28:36,390
in order to reach the ultimate goal of

803
00:28:36,390 --> 00:28:38,169
lowering the cost of new batteries.

804
00:28:39,109 --> 00:28:41,204
The whole thing has to come down to

805
00:28:41,365 --> 00:28:42,585
or comes down to

806
00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:43,544
decarbonizing

807
00:28:44,484 --> 00:28:45,144
our planet.

808
00:28:45,765 --> 00:28:46,265
And,

809
00:28:46,804 --> 00:28:49,285
to do that, batteries do a great job

810
00:28:49,285 --> 00:28:50,964
at it. And we wanna get more people

811
00:28:50,964 --> 00:28:53,125
driving EVs and using them in the grid

812
00:28:53,125 --> 00:28:54,964
and and all these applications. To do that,

813
00:28:54,964 --> 00:28:57,059
we need to lower the cost, And recycling

814
00:28:57,059 --> 00:28:59,159
is a huge opportunity to do that.

815
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,159
I'm really interested about this and future chemistries.

816
00:29:03,619 --> 00:29:05,380
What are those chemistries, and how much is

817
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:05,880
recyclability

818
00:29:06,259 --> 00:29:08,980
taken into account when people are developing new

819
00:29:08,980 --> 00:29:10,359
battery types? Yeah.

820
00:29:10,795 --> 00:29:12,714
Great question. You you do ask all the

821
00:29:12,714 --> 00:29:13,455
good questions.

822
00:29:13,994 --> 00:29:14,494
So

823
00:29:15,195 --> 00:29:17,695
we spend some time looking at

824
00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:18,815
new chemistries.

825
00:29:19,515 --> 00:29:21,295
We don't spend too much time because

826
00:29:21,755 --> 00:29:23,099
as you probably know,

827
00:29:23,660 --> 00:29:25,579
some people may not. But, like, you'll see

828
00:29:25,579 --> 00:29:26,400
in the news,

829
00:29:27,660 --> 00:29:30,299
some group found the solution to the batteries,

830
00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:32,220
and it's gonna last a million years and

831
00:29:32,220 --> 00:29:33,740
all that stuff. But you see it all

832
00:29:33,740 --> 00:29:35,444
over the place, and that may be at

833
00:29:35,764 --> 00:29:36,984
milligram quantity,

834
00:29:38,244 --> 00:29:38,744
scales

835
00:29:39,605 --> 00:29:40,005
or,

836
00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,125
you know, maybe not feasible at in large

837
00:29:43,125 --> 00:29:43,625
quantity.

838
00:29:44,005 --> 00:29:46,664
So we take advantage of in a vehicle,

839
00:29:47,524 --> 00:29:49,764
a vehicle last fifteen years. So if it's

840
00:29:49,764 --> 00:29:50,664
not in production,

841
00:29:51,940 --> 00:29:53,860
we we know we don't need to worry

842
00:29:53,860 --> 00:29:55,620
about it too much. But we wanna make

843
00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:57,240
sure that we're looking at chemistries

844
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,340
that are starting to take shape that are

845
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,100
gonna end up on a vehicle or in

846
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:02,759
some application.

847
00:30:03,505 --> 00:30:05,585
And we wanna make sure that it's not

848
00:30:05,585 --> 00:30:07,365
going to cause a big problem

849
00:30:08,144 --> 00:30:10,865
because you can contaminate a big stream if

850
00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:12,065
you have a little bit of something in

851
00:30:12,065 --> 00:30:13,505
it. So if they're using a little bit

852
00:30:13,505 --> 00:30:15,284
of something in it, we wanna

853
00:30:15,919 --> 00:30:18,419
recommend that they don't go with that chemistry.

854
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,779
So we have four focus areas in resell.

855
00:30:22,559 --> 00:30:24,339
There is direct recycling.

856
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,460
There is, advanced resource recovery.

857
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,140
That's our second one. Advanced resource recovery is

858
00:30:31,815 --> 00:30:34,134
the, recovery of materials that we can't directly

859
00:30:34,134 --> 00:30:34,634
recycle.

860
00:30:35,494 --> 00:30:37,674
Then there is modeling and analysis

861
00:30:38,454 --> 00:30:38,954
and

862
00:30:39,335 --> 00:30:40,554
design for sustainability.

863
00:30:40,855 --> 00:30:43,274
And design for sustainability is what I wanna

864
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:43,835
mention.

865
00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:48,390
We want to make our batteries, use materials,

866
00:30:48,769 --> 00:30:50,150
use assembly methods

867
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:52,930
in a way we wanna make them better.

868
00:30:52,930 --> 00:30:55,170
We wanna design better ways, better materials to

869
00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,430
put into our batteries so that the recycling

870
00:30:58,054 --> 00:31:00,634
can be handled more easily, more cost effectively.

871
00:31:01,414 --> 00:31:04,134
And that's probably the most challenging focus area

872
00:31:04,134 --> 00:31:05,595
that we have is

873
00:31:05,974 --> 00:31:08,154
trying to change what's working today

874
00:31:08,535 --> 00:31:10,794
so that it's easier to recycle tomorrow.

875
00:31:12,259 --> 00:31:14,599
It's it's just when things aren't broken,

876
00:31:15,139 --> 00:31:16,440
don't fix them kinda

877
00:31:16,899 --> 00:31:18,500
just challenging. But those are the things that

878
00:31:18,500 --> 00:31:20,899
we're doing, we're very aware of. And you

879
00:31:20,899 --> 00:31:22,659
think about anything when you look around a

880
00:31:22,659 --> 00:31:25,700
room, what's designed for recycling? What's designed for

881
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:26,200
sustainability?

882
00:31:27,355 --> 00:31:29,674
There are some, like, our water bottles got

883
00:31:29,674 --> 00:31:32,015
thinner plastics. Right? So that's good.

884
00:31:32,394 --> 00:31:34,954
And I think that's always a consideration. But

885
00:31:34,954 --> 00:31:36,714
what, you know, what big changes can we

886
00:31:36,714 --> 00:31:38,714
make that are really gonna catapult us into

887
00:31:38,714 --> 00:31:40,335
the next generation of design?

888
00:31:40,714 --> 00:31:42,095
I think that's really cool.

889
00:31:42,679 --> 00:31:44,059
Final question then. You know?

890
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,519
What's what's the dream here? Where's where's the

891
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:48,759
field headache? Give me your your sort of

892
00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:50,919
vision for a future of battery cycle. How

893
00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:52,359
how would it work in your sort of

894
00:31:52,359 --> 00:31:53,339
ideal system?

895
00:31:54,039 --> 00:31:54,539
Oh,

896
00:31:54,875 --> 00:31:56,494
how much time do you have?

897
00:31:56,875 --> 00:31:58,875
No. I think the real quick answer or

898
00:31:58,875 --> 00:32:00,575
the quickest answer is

899
00:32:01,035 --> 00:32:03,535
it's circular. We get to that circular

900
00:32:04,154 --> 00:32:06,634
economy that that people like to say. So

901
00:32:06,634 --> 00:32:08,414
we buy these materials once.

902
00:32:08,789 --> 00:32:09,769
And in the beginning,

903
00:32:10,230 --> 00:32:12,170
you know, I'm not naive to think that

904
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:15,590
these batteries are gonna power our vehicles or

905
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:17,369
store the energy that powers our vehicles

906
00:32:17,830 --> 00:32:20,390
forever. Right? There's this s curve. So we're

907
00:32:20,390 --> 00:32:21,910
just we're at the bottom of the s

908
00:32:21,910 --> 00:32:24,365
curve. But as we get more materials available

909
00:32:24,365 --> 00:32:26,125
for recycling, we can put them into the

910
00:32:26,125 --> 00:32:28,125
recycling that we have. And, eventually, there's that

911
00:32:28,125 --> 00:32:30,444
inflection point where we can put most of

912
00:32:30,444 --> 00:32:31,744
that material into

913
00:32:32,125 --> 00:32:32,625
recycling

914
00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:34,144
into new products,

915
00:32:34,525 --> 00:32:35,585
and we can actually

916
00:32:36,569 --> 00:32:39,470
require very little material to make our batteries.

917
00:32:39,609 --> 00:32:42,009
At some point, though, something's gonna replace lithium

918
00:32:42,009 --> 00:32:44,250
ion batteries just like we're replacing the internal

919
00:32:44,250 --> 00:32:45,549
combustion engine now.

920
00:32:46,250 --> 00:32:47,069
And so

921
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:48,349
during the lifespan

922
00:32:48,730 --> 00:32:50,569
or the majority of the lifespan of these

923
00:32:50,569 --> 00:32:51,630
lithium ion batteries,

924
00:32:51,955 --> 00:32:53,475
I think, you know, towards the end, we

925
00:32:53,475 --> 00:32:55,575
wanna be able to have this complete circularity

926
00:32:56,195 --> 00:32:58,434
or near complete circularity so that we don't

927
00:32:58,434 --> 00:33:01,154
have this this security risk of relying on

928
00:33:01,154 --> 00:33:04,355
other other countries. We have cost. You know,

929
00:33:04,355 --> 00:33:06,695
if you have a a pile of dirt

930
00:33:07,369 --> 00:33:08,750
and a pile of batteries,

931
00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:10,730
you know, which one would you think would

932
00:33:10,730 --> 00:33:12,890
be cheaper to get the raw materials to

933
00:33:12,890 --> 00:33:15,769
make a battery from? Right? It's probably from

934
00:33:15,769 --> 00:33:16,269
batteries.

935
00:33:16,650 --> 00:33:18,730
Now we just happen to be processing dirt

936
00:33:18,730 --> 00:33:20,090
for so long. We're good at it, and

937
00:33:20,090 --> 00:33:22,484
we're at scale, and we're not. Recycling batteries

938
00:33:22,484 --> 00:33:24,744
is very new. But, eventually, they're gonna equalize,

939
00:33:25,285 --> 00:33:27,045
and, and they're gonna be a great resource

940
00:33:27,045 --> 00:33:29,224
for those materials. So yeah.

941
00:33:29,924 --> 00:33:31,144
Thank you very much.

942
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,539
That was Jeffrey Spangenberger

943
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:43,099
of Argonne National Laboratory

944
00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:44,460
in conversation

945
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,259
with Physics World's Margaret Harris.

946
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,304
Before that, Margaret spoke with Nadia Mason of

947
00:33:51,304 --> 00:33:52,924
the University of Chicago.

948
00:33:53,384 --> 00:33:55,785
Thanks to all three of them for coming

949
00:33:55,785 --> 00:33:56,765
on the podcast.

950
00:33:57,464 --> 00:34:00,184
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred

951
00:34:00,184 --> 00:34:00,684
Isles.

952
00:34:01,224 --> 00:34:03,720
On the May,

953
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:05,419
The Economist is hosting

954
00:34:05,799 --> 00:34:06,299
commercializing

955
00:34:06,919 --> 00:34:07,900
quantum global

956
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:10,380
twenty twenty five in London.

957
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:11,420
Participants

958
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,059
will join global leaders from business,

959
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:15,739
science, and policy

960
00:34:16,194 --> 00:34:19,635
for two days of real world insights into

961
00:34:19,635 --> 00:34:20,775
quantum's future.

962
00:34:21,234 --> 00:34:25,174
In London, you'll explore breakthroughs in quantum computing,

963
00:34:25,635 --> 00:34:26,135
communications,

964
00:34:26,594 --> 00:34:27,335
and sensing.

965
00:34:27,635 --> 00:34:29,655
And you'll discover how these technologies

966
00:34:30,114 --> 00:34:31,574
are shaping industries,

967
00:34:32,329 --> 00:34:34,590
economies, and global regulation.

968
00:34:35,369 --> 00:34:40,989
You can register for the event at events.economist.com.

969
00:34:41,289 --> 00:34:43,210
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

970
00:34:43,210 --> 00:34:44,429
for this week's podcast.

971
00:34:44,889 --> 00:34:47,210
We'll be back again next week. See you

972
00:34:47,210 --> 00:34:47,710
then.