369 | Understanding Time and Touch in Child-Centered Play Therapy

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering two questions from Mikayla in Illinois.

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Long time listener,

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longtime

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question asker.

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I've answered quite a few questions from you,

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Mikayla,

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and I appreciate it.

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Thank you for

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consistently having thoughtful questions that we can all benefit from.

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Before we dive into

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the questions and kind of processing those together,

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I just want to take

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a second to say thank you so much for those of you who have

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registered for the live event coming up next week.

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I had no idea what that would look like.

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I,

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it was the first time we had done it.

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It was kind of a,

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a pilot test,

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if you will,

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proof of concept.

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If we do an event in Tampa,

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and it is only CCPT

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will people come.

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And so for those of you that have RSVP for the VIP for the

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weekend,

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Saturday and Sunday,

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those of you that are going to attend

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webinar,

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those of you who are going to

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watch on demand.

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A huge thank you to those of you all who have done that.

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The turnout has been

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more than I had expected.

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I'm really excited about that.

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And

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this is definitely something that we want to do every year.

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And so,

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if you are not able to come this year in person,

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maybe you can do webinar or on demand,

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so you still get content,

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but we are absolutely intending to do this every year as an annual event.

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So make plans in 2027.

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Make sure that you have

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time that you can take and a budget for it.

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I would love to have you come hang out,

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and we're going to do this every single year to celebrate this incredible field,

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this incredible model,

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and I want to meet y'all and hug you and whatever.

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So,

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I'm so excited for those of you that are already signed up,

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really excited,

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looking forward to being with you.

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There's still time.

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So if you've been thinking about it and you want to

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just check the show notes and you can still register.

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And I am

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very much looking forward to that.

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So,

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I appreciate you all supporting CCPT

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and supporting this event.

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It's been a huge

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encouragement.

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So,

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just wanted to say a quick thanks.

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All right,

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so let me dive into

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Mikayla's questions and then we'll kind of tackle them each one at a time.

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You've mentioned that the national average of CCPT sessions has

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shifted from 20 to 30 to 30 to 40.

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Why is that?

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I realized when talking to parents,

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I have some who fit nicely into the 20 to 30 and terminate successfully,

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but I don't have a solid explanation when

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discussing timelines and average number of sessions.

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I'm also curious on a clinical level where and why the shift has occurred.

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OK.

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So,

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really helpful question.

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I'll dive into the 2nd one in a minute.

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I don't want to make things too complicated.

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So,

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we do know historically that we were quoting a 20 week national average,

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and that was just to address all scenarios,

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all issues across the board.

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We knew that 20 sessions was usually sufficient.

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This might be a lesser known

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resource,

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but

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Hendrix in 1971,

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I talk about this in coaching and on the Collective sometimes,

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but I don't think I've ever mentioned it in a podcast.

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So,

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Hendrix in 1971,

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as part of a dissertation,

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created a CCPT timeline.

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And what that provides,

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that is actually a 24 week timeline,

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which

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is aligned with the 20 week model on average,

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and it breaks down

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weeks of the process

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into chunks.

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And so,

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you know,

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weeks 1 through 4,

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we will likely see this.

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Weeks 5 through 8,

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we will likely see this.

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And that has been an invaluable resource.

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Now,

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let me be really clear,

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we do not share that with parents.

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So we are not trying to explain the timeline to parents.

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It's clinical and it's

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way over their heads,

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and that's not really what they need from us.

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So,

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of course,

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we're going to share phases.

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Of course we're going to set expectations,

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help them understand what's going on

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and what we're observing in sessions and thematically what is coming up.

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But we're certainly not going to bombard a parent with

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Hendrix's timeline.

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But what that does is it gives us kind of a general sense of

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there is.

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A predictable process

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for CCPT and we can expect

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that in the 1st 4 weeks we'll see these things,

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and then in the next 4,

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we'll see these things.

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Now,

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it has actually shifted to 30 to 40.

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The meta-analytic data

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indicates that 30 to 40,

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based on all of the studies that they aggregated

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was the average,

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and 37 being the,

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I'm air quoting,

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magic number.

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There is no such thing,

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but what they determined was 37 was the number of sessions

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in which the child had enough but not too much.

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And that the bulk of issues were resolved

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and the child was able to naturally terminate.

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That number was 37.

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So,

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why has this shifted?

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Well,

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I don't know that there's any studies that are

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actually researching this,

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providing any kind of reliable data.

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But Mikayla and all of you,

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I will share my thoughts.

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This is probably Brenna's

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opinion more than anything else.

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I think there are quite a few factors,

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and I'll hit some highlights for you.

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I think unequivocally,

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the increase in screen use

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in the last decade that has skyrocketed.

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I think it is wreaking havoc on our kids.

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And we are using digital pacifiers

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from infancy.

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We are giving babies phones and strollers.

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We are giving toddlers iPads and cribs,

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and kids are in front of a screen hours and hours and hours a day.

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And I promise I'm not getting on a soapbox to rant about how dangerous screens are.

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Read my book if you want to learn more about it.

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But this is a really valid concern,

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and we should be having these discussions with parents

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because

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kids' nervous systems are getting wrecked.

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Their brains are actually getting damaged.

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And it is wreaking havoc

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on their ability to function.

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So we know the impact studies have proven the impact

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that over-screen use is having on children

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and their brains and their nervous systems

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and their bodies and their sleep

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and

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so many other things.

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The attention,

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their focus,

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their academic performance,

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their language acquisition,

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their social engagement.

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Oh my gosh,

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the list goes on and on.

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So,

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what is my hypothesis for why we've seen an increase because kids

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come in

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at such lower baselines?

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They

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are struggling in new ways that kids 15 years ago were not,

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and I think it is taking longer

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because of where they're coming in.

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Second issue

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at play,

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I think we have.

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neglected to realize

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the influence

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that

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The amount of childhood

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mental health diagnoses

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has skyrocketed.

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The amount of

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psychopharmacological prescriptions

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for children

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has skyrocketed.

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I think I read 3,000% increase.

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In psychopharmacological meds that are being prescribed to kids,

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why are we seeing such higher diagnoses?

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Why are we seeing such higher levels of medication?

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Kids are struggling,

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and I don't think we're recognizing

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the anxiety that is being created by screen use.

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It's,

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it's a

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cascade effect.

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Their brains,

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their nervous systems,

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their bodies,

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their sleep,

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everything about what's going on for them.

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is skewed.

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So huge concern,

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and I think that's probably the top level.

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Another consideration

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is that we have taken away childhood

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from our kids.

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They're no longer getting access to

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PE at school.

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They're no longer being able to play.

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They're

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literally being forced to grow up way too fast,

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way too soon.

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They're being exposed to things that my generation was never exposed to.

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They see things,

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read things,

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watch things,

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hear things

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that are not meant for children.

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We have pushed the pace

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of childhood,

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and

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it's

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taking its toll.

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I think that kids are not able to

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just be

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children.

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And when the innocence has been taken away,

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when the free play has been taken away,

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when the ability to just

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Be a child outside

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in the dirt,

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making up games with your friends.

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When that is lost,

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we see

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the impact of that,

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and a lot of the kids that come into our playrooms,

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they don't even know how to play.

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I've,

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I've heard that sentiment over and over again,

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and I've experienced it myself.

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CCPT say

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this kid literally does not even know how to play.

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That is tragic.

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And so I think that is also a component because

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if kids have to learn how to play before they can

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play

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in CCPT,

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00:09:31,390 --> 00:09:32,190
it takes longer.

284
00:09:32,989 --> 00:09:33,650
And

285
00:09:33,950 --> 00:09:36,809
we are just not sensitive to children's needs.

286
00:09:37,500 --> 00:09:39,340
We are overscheduling kids.

287
00:09:39,750 --> 00:09:43,989
We are filling every waking minute of their lives with an activity.

288
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:45,940
And

289
00:09:46,510 --> 00:09:47,679
The list goes on and on.

290
00:09:47,789 --> 00:09:49,890
And so there have been a lot of changes

291
00:09:50,150 --> 00:09:50,729
in

292
00:09:51,020 --> 00:09:52,570
children's experiences

293
00:09:52,909 --> 00:09:54,169
and childhood

294
00:09:54,690 --> 00:09:55,809
in the last

295
00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:57,330
1 to 2 decades.

296
00:09:57,830 --> 00:10:00,650
And I think we're seeing the aftereffects of that.

297
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,179
I think we are now in the fallout

298
00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:04,500
of

299
00:10:04,789 --> 00:10:08,390
children really struggling because they're not allowed to be kids anymore.

300
00:10:08,659 --> 00:10:09,799
They're not allowed to have free time.

301
00:10:09,869 --> 00:10:10,989
They're not allowed to play.

302
00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,820
They're not allowed to

303
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,580
just be innocent and young

304
00:10:14,919 --> 00:10:17,940
and not feel the weight of the world on their shoulders.

305
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:19,940
I would also argue

306
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:20,909
that

307
00:10:21,289 --> 00:10:21,960
COVID.

308
00:10:22,549 --> 00:10:23,809
Also influenced

309
00:10:23,989 --> 00:10:26,049
children's ability to cope.

310
00:10:26,349 --> 00:10:28,489
I think especially for kids that were young

311
00:10:29,179 --> 00:10:31,770
when COVID hit and or they were born during

312
00:10:32,010 --> 00:10:32,469
COVID.

313
00:10:33,250 --> 00:10:36,599
I think that it has had lasting effects

314
00:10:36,820 --> 00:10:37,460
on

315
00:10:37,700 --> 00:10:40,400
their development and their health as well.

316
00:10:41,169 --> 00:10:41,520
So,

317
00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:42,849
my hypotheses,

318
00:10:42,929 --> 00:10:45,210
I'm not saying that those are founded in

319
00:10:45,210 --> 00:10:47,530
anything other than my experience and my thoughts,

320
00:10:48,049 --> 00:10:50,869
but that is why I think it has expanded.

321
00:10:51,419 --> 00:10:51,570
So,

322
00:10:51,609 --> 00:10:52,010
Mikayla,

323
00:10:52,090 --> 00:10:54,190
let me go back to your actual question.

324
00:10:54,489 --> 00:10:56,309
I don't have a solid explanation

325
00:10:56,609 --> 00:10:58,469
for the average number of sessions.

326
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:00,979
It's an average.

327
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,380
And so what we're trying to communicate to parents is

328
00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:05,419
what

329
00:11:05,599 --> 00:11:07,859
you can expect in the process

330
00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:09,799
and what that might look like,

331
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,700
but that every child is different

332
00:11:11,890 --> 00:11:12,340
and

333
00:11:12,549 --> 00:11:14,859
some kids only need 20 or 25.

334
00:11:15,359 --> 00:11:16,760
Some kids need 50.

335
00:11:17,630 --> 00:11:18,359
So

336
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,280
that's actually what I typically say,

337
00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:20,679
you know,

338
00:11:20,789 --> 00:11:22,599
we're looking at a 30 to 40 range,

339
00:11:22,669 --> 00:11:24,719
but that means for every kid that needs 20,

340
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,000
another one needs 50.

341
00:11:26,849 --> 00:11:32,119
And we will look at the process and how things are going every 5 sessions.

342
00:11:32,570 --> 00:11:35,080
We will evaluate and we will determine next steps.

343
00:11:35,330 --> 00:11:39,030
So what you're actually asking parents to do is commit to 5 at a time,

344
00:11:39,719 --> 00:11:41,669
rather than commit to 30 to 40,

345
00:11:42,169 --> 00:11:44,609
because that seems overwhelming first and foremost.

346
00:11:44,729 --> 00:11:45,429
Secondly,

347
00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:46,309
it

348
00:11:46,690 --> 00:11:48,989
seems like there's no rhyme or reason

349
00:11:49,179 --> 00:11:51,650
for when and how we're going to know

350
00:11:51,849 --> 00:11:53,130
that we're going to wrap up.

351
00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:56,820
But we absolutely do have metrics in place.

352
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,070
Every 5 sessions we meet,

353
00:11:59,309 --> 00:12:00,630
we see how things are going,

354
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,700
and we determine if we're ready to wrap up or if we need another round of 5.

355
00:12:05,869 --> 00:12:08,710
So you don't really need to justify the shift to a parent.

356
00:12:08,789 --> 00:12:12,609
You can just factually communicate 30 to 40 is the average.

357
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:14,440
Every kid is different,

358
00:12:14,710 --> 00:12:16,390
and we're going to commit to 5 at a time.

359
00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:17,669
That is our process.

360
00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:19,969
That is received really well by parents,

361
00:12:20,429 --> 00:12:22,729
and it allows us to

362
00:12:23,070 --> 00:12:24,890
give them a sense of

363
00:12:25,159 --> 00:12:27,119
stability in the process.

364
00:12:27,270 --> 00:12:27,909
In other words,

365
00:12:28,030 --> 00:12:29,789
we're not just in this indefinitely.

366
00:12:30,599 --> 00:12:32,780
But it also allows us to suggest

367
00:12:33,299 --> 00:12:35,059
with clinical reasoning

368
00:12:35,260 --> 00:12:36,359
that we need 5 more.

369
00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,299
We're not quite ready to wrap up yet.

370
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:38,859
And then,

371
00:12:38,869 --> 00:12:39,159
of course,

372
00:12:39,239 --> 00:12:40,820
we fall back on the 4

373
00:12:41,599 --> 00:12:43,700
termination criteria that we ask ourselves

374
00:12:44,239 --> 00:12:47,539
to see from our end if we believe that the child is ready to wrap up.

375
00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:48,219
So,

376
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:50,280
I hope that that is helpful to all of you.

377
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:50,770
Mikayla,

378
00:12:50,869 --> 00:12:51,000
again,

379
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,080
thank you for that question.

380
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:52,609
OK,

381
00:12:52,690 --> 00:12:53,960
let's dive into the second question.

382
00:12:54,799 --> 00:12:57,510
I find myself struggling with physical boundaries in the playroom.

383
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,739
Some of my kids are very relationship focused and or hyper.

384
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:02,840
As we get deeper into the relationship,

385
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,690
some love to be physically close and play games like football,

386
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:06,780
where I get tackled,

387
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:07,640
my foot is grabbed,

388
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,270
kids think it's funny to throw things at or touch my abdomen,

389
00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:10,979
etc.

390
00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,239
Sometimes there seems to be no sense of an

391
00:13:13,239 --> 00:13:15,309
awareness that I'm an adult who isn't their mom,

392
00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:18,539
and certain kinds of touch and closeness may not be appropriate.

393
00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:21,039
I'm generally not a big physical touch person,

394
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:22,719
and I will do hand hugs with clients.

395
00:13:23,169 --> 00:13:26,299
When a child literally throws themselves into me for sensory or attachment,

396
00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:28,010
I do get thrown off and struggle.

397
00:13:28,260 --> 00:13:30,979
I'm realizing now that disliking physical touch doesn't

398
00:13:30,979 --> 00:13:32,719
lend itself well to work with kids.

399
00:13:33,299 --> 00:13:33,729
Regardless,

400
00:13:33,780 --> 00:13:34,559
I am struggling,

401
00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:36,760
and I don't want to break relationship connection,

402
00:13:36,859 --> 00:13:39,570
as I know I've become an attachment figure for some clients.

403
00:13:39,989 --> 00:13:41,359
When I'm playing football,

404
00:13:41,859 --> 00:13:44,549
it becomes difficult because the boundaries seem arbitrary.

405
00:13:44,780 --> 00:13:46,979
To a kid whose need is to connect and play football.

406
00:13:47,059 --> 00:13:48,619
There's no difference between tackling me,

407
00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:50,570
throwing a ball at inappropriate body parts,

408
00:13:50,780 --> 00:13:51,599
or grabbing my foot.

409
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,440
As I've learned more about myself as a CCPT,

410
00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,719
my boundaries with physical touch and interacting with kids has changed.

411
00:13:58,119 --> 00:14:00,210
So it can be difficult to course correct,

412
00:14:00,309 --> 00:14:02,880
and I don't want to bring confusion or perceived rejection.

413
00:14:04,109 --> 00:14:04,719
OK,

414
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,479
so I'm actually really excited to talk about this too.

415
00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,919
I think you already kind of addressed it yourself when you said,

416
00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:14,299
I'm realizing that disliking physical touch doesn't

417
00:14:14,299 --> 00:14:15,880
lend itself well to working with kids.

418
00:14:16,690 --> 00:14:19,989
It doesn't mean that if all of you collectively,

419
00:14:20,330 --> 00:14:23,789
those of you who are not particularly thrilled with physical touch,

420
00:14:24,090 --> 00:14:25,570
and we're all wired differently,

421
00:14:25,650 --> 00:14:25,849
you know,

422
00:14:26,010 --> 00:14:27,309
God made us all uniquely.

423
00:14:27,609 --> 00:14:29,169
So there are people that love physical touch,

424
00:14:29,289 --> 00:14:30,929
there are people that don't like it at all,

425
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,669
and then everyone else in the middle.

426
00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:35,520
And so it's not a deal breaker.

427
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:36,840
It's not like you say to yourself,

428
00:14:36,919 --> 00:14:37,030
Well,

429
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:37,280
gosh,

430
00:14:37,359 --> 00:14:40,359
I can't be CCPT if I don't like touch.

431
00:14:40,719 --> 00:14:41,659
That's not true.

432
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,619
But you do have to

433
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:44,700
move the needle.

434
00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:45,950
In other words,

435
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,109
where your boundaries maybe would naturally fall,

436
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:50,400
they have to shift.

437
00:14:50,679 --> 00:14:51,460
Where your

438
00:14:52,049 --> 00:14:53,840
limits might normally be,

439
00:14:53,950 --> 00:14:57,080
it has to shift because kids are physical beings,

440
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,299
they are tactile beings,

441
00:14:59,719 --> 00:15:02,000
and they touch for connection.

442
00:15:02,599 --> 00:15:04,520
Kids learn from infancy.

443
00:15:05,229 --> 00:15:05,469
Actually,

444
00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:06,770
from the moment they're born,

445
00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:07,849
that

446
00:15:08,270 --> 00:15:09,729
when you love and care for someone,

447
00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:10,590
you touch them.

448
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:12,200
You hug them,

449
00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:12,840
you kiss them,

450
00:15:12,919 --> 00:15:13,719
you hold their hand,

451
00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:14,559
you snuggle with them,

452
00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:15,640
you cuddle with them,

453
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:16,460
you

454
00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:17,380
rock them.

455
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,260
There is a physicality

456
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,219
to children,

457
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,780
and it is wired

458
00:15:22,239 --> 00:15:24,679
that they recognize that when they care for

459
00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:26,679
someone and they have a relationship with someone,

460
00:15:27,119 --> 00:15:28,580
there's physical touch involved.

461
00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:30,169
So,

462
00:15:30,179 --> 00:15:32,859
we have to know our own limits and boundaries,

463
00:15:32,940 --> 00:15:35,960
but we also have to appropriately shift

464
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:37,799
so that it makes

465
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,000
more sense

466
00:15:39,260 --> 00:15:42,880
to work with children who are going to expect physical contact.

467
00:15:43,340 --> 00:15:43,409
So,

468
00:15:43,419 --> 00:15:44,250
that's my first thought.

469
00:15:44,659 --> 00:15:45,380
Secondly,

470
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,710
You also kind of identified it.

471
00:15:49,039 --> 00:15:51,539
They are relationship focused and

472
00:15:51,919 --> 00:15:52,419
they

473
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:53,799
have freedom in a playroom.

474
00:15:54,849 --> 00:15:58,049
So where you say they seem to have no sense of awareness that

475
00:15:58,049 --> 00:16:01,000
I'm not their mom and touch and closeness may not be appropriate,

476
00:16:01,369 --> 00:16:02,929
they don't have awareness of that.

477
00:16:03,570 --> 00:16:04,530
They're not cognitive.

478
00:16:04,609 --> 00:16:05,690
They're not rational.

479
00:16:06,049 --> 00:16:08,010
There's no reason for them not to touch you.

480
00:16:08,130 --> 00:16:09,669
They have a relationship with you.

481
00:16:09,890 --> 00:16:10,650
They like you.

482
00:16:10,729 --> 00:16:11,750
They care for you.

483
00:16:12,369 --> 00:16:12,789
So

484
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:14,150
if I'm in charge

485
00:16:14,359 --> 00:16:16,320
and I get to be the boss in the playroom,

486
00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:17,609
all is fair game.

487
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:19,080
Until,

488
00:16:19,109 --> 00:16:19,440
of course,

489
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,979
something crosses an appropriateness boundary,

490
00:16:22,359 --> 00:16:22,719
but

491
00:16:22,969 --> 00:16:23,760
touching your foot,

492
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,280
throwing something at your stomach,

493
00:16:25,469 --> 00:16:26,349
hugging you,

494
00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:27,859
trying to tackle you,

495
00:16:28,359 --> 00:16:28,739
the

496
00:16:28,979 --> 00:16:31,299
limits that are required in a playroom

497
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,359
are child is safe,

498
00:16:32,479 --> 00:16:33,099
you're safe,

499
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,700
nothing can get broken on purpose.

500
00:16:35,929 --> 00:16:38,989
Unless there's a concern that you're going to get hurt

501
00:16:39,849 --> 00:16:42,250
from the way the child is maybe like tackling you,

502
00:16:42,289 --> 00:16:43,150
for example,

503
00:16:43,570 --> 00:16:46,229
if your concern is that you're going to get injured,

504
00:16:46,809 --> 00:16:48,840
then absolutely you would set a limit on that.

505
00:16:49,330 --> 00:16:53,369
But if it's just your discomfort from the fact that the child is touching you.

506
00:16:53,739 --> 00:16:54,890
That's a different story.

507
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:55,309
Now,

508
00:16:55,510 --> 00:16:57,570
those are the three reasons we set limits.

509
00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:00,619
Let's not neglect the 3 questions we ask ourselves,

510
00:17:00,950 --> 00:17:03,489
one of which is appropriate in this scenario.

511
00:17:03,909 --> 00:17:06,089
Can I allow this behavior to continue

512
00:17:06,310 --> 00:17:08,589
and still unconditionally accept this child?

513
00:17:09,819 --> 00:17:12,489
If this child wants to tackle you

514
00:17:12,709 --> 00:17:15,050
and internally you are reeling,

515
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:16,569
and it's not a safety issue,

516
00:17:16,949 --> 00:17:19,550
it's just you haven't sorted this out for yourself yet

517
00:17:19,790 --> 00:17:22,430
and it is absolutely getting you in your head and you are

518
00:17:22,430 --> 00:17:24,229
uncomfortable and you're no longer present

519
00:17:24,229 --> 00:17:26,290
and you're no longer unconditionally accepting

520
00:17:26,510 --> 00:17:28,189
and you have all of this stuff swirling.

521
00:17:29,199 --> 00:17:31,300
If you can no longer accept the child,

522
00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,140
then a limit is needed because it's needed for you.

523
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,939
It would not be a universally needed limit

524
00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:38,729
because safety and,

525
00:17:38,829 --> 00:17:41,510
and protection of property is not a factor here,

526
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:43,599
but maybe it's a factor for you.

527
00:17:44,089 --> 00:17:45,630
The caveat is

528
00:17:46,050 --> 00:17:48,069
we want to be as permissive as possible

529
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,400
and we want to give as much freedom as possible,

530
00:17:50,729 --> 00:17:52,229
so we have to learn

531
00:17:52,410 --> 00:17:53,670
to shift our

532
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:55,949
expectations and boundaries

533
00:17:56,209 --> 00:17:58,930
to where we can handle it more differently,

534
00:17:59,050 --> 00:17:59,589
better.

535
00:18:00,619 --> 00:18:01,530
And then

536
00:18:01,869 --> 00:18:03,199
in worst case scenarios,

537
00:18:03,349 --> 00:18:03,469
sure,

538
00:18:03,550 --> 00:18:04,560
we set limits.

539
00:18:05,030 --> 00:18:06,060
Inappropriate touch,

540
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:06,750
of course,

541
00:18:06,910 --> 00:18:08,930
we're going to set a limit unequivocally,

542
00:18:09,469 --> 00:18:10,829
but a child wanting to hug you,

543
00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:12,290
a child wanting to

544
00:18:12,699 --> 00:18:14,709
come up and bear hug you,

545
00:18:14,780 --> 00:18:16,510
a child wanting to climb on your back,

546
00:18:16,619 --> 00:18:18,180
a child wanting to do all those things,

547
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:21,449
that's standard kid behavior first and foremost.

548
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:22,469
Second of all,

549
00:18:22,619 --> 00:18:24,930
it's what you're going to face all the time

550
00:18:25,189 --> 00:18:26,270
as a CCPT.

551
00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:28,640
So there has to be a sense of,

552
00:18:28,719 --> 00:18:29,099
OK,

553
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:30,400
I know myself,

554
00:18:30,479 --> 00:18:32,469
I know this makes me a little uncomfortable.

555
00:18:32,930 --> 00:18:34,180
How can I shift

556
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,140
to more of a middle ground?

557
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:36,910
Now,

558
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,359
there's still going to be a time when you're going to set a limit.

559
00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:40,420
We all have to.

560
00:18:41,869 --> 00:18:44,369
But we need to know how far we can move

561
00:18:44,949 --> 00:18:47,010
to where we can tolerate and accept this.

562
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:49,010
Kids are

563
00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:51,109
such physical beings.

564
00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:53,380
They are such affectionate beings.

565
00:18:53,589 --> 00:18:55,449
They are such relational beings.

566
00:18:55,790 --> 00:18:58,770
All three of those lend themselves to,

567
00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:00,349
I'm going to touch you.

568
00:19:01,579 --> 00:19:05,349
And we have to be OK with that as long as it's appropriate.

569
00:19:06,209 --> 00:19:06,670
So,

570
00:19:06,969 --> 00:19:07,770
I agree with you.

571
00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:10,729
Our goal is preservation of relationship at all costs.

572
00:19:10,890 --> 00:19:11,329
So you said,

573
00:19:11,369 --> 00:19:13,390
I don't want to break relationship connection.

574
00:19:14,010 --> 00:19:16,189
We have to preserve relationship.

575
00:19:16,449 --> 00:19:17,630
And one of the things that I

576
00:19:17,810 --> 00:19:20,349
talk about in coaching when we get to the physical touch week,

577
00:19:20,790 --> 00:19:22,859
I talk about in coaching,

578
00:19:23,079 --> 00:19:24,130
I would never

579
00:19:24,369 --> 00:19:25,319
do anything.

580
00:19:25,689 --> 00:19:27,329
I know we're never supposed to say I would never,

581
00:19:27,410 --> 00:19:28,790
but this is legit.

582
00:19:29,010 --> 00:19:30,709
I would never do anything.

583
00:19:31,689 --> 00:19:36,130
That I thought would make a child question whether or not I care for that kid.

584
00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:38,040
And so

585
00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,500
the notion that a kid can't hug us,

586
00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:41,900
can't hold our hand,

587
00:19:42,260 --> 00:19:43,420
can't sit in our lap,

588
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:45,239
can't touch us.

589
00:19:46,109 --> 00:19:49,310
Those are appropriate child behaviors,

590
00:19:49,589 --> 00:19:51,099
and it is their extension

591
00:19:51,469 --> 00:19:52,780
of relationship.

592
00:19:53,189 --> 00:19:54,530
I want to show you

593
00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:55,469
tangibly,

594
00:19:55,550 --> 00:19:56,280
physically,

595
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:57,650
demonstrate to you

596
00:19:58,069 --> 00:19:59,209
that I care about you.

597
00:19:59,510 --> 00:20:02,709
We spend hours and hours and hours with these kids

598
00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:04,270
over the course of treatment.

599
00:20:05,089 --> 00:20:05,609
And

600
00:20:05,890 --> 00:20:07,930
when they build relationship with people,

601
00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:09,030
they hug them,

602
00:20:09,619 --> 00:20:10,380
they hang out with them,

603
00:20:10,459 --> 00:20:11,369
they hold their hands,

604
00:20:11,420 --> 00:20:11,800
they,

605
00:20:12,140 --> 00:20:12,380
you know,

606
00:20:12,579 --> 00:20:15,170
run up and bear hug them and tackle them,

607
00:20:15,219 --> 00:20:15,500
whatever.

608
00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:18,040
Those are appropriate things for a child to do.

609
00:20:19,250 --> 00:20:19,790
And

610
00:20:20,170 --> 00:20:21,810
I've always said in coaching,

611
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,079
if I set a limit on that,

612
00:20:24,329 --> 00:20:24,449
oh,

613
00:20:24,530 --> 00:20:25,489
I'm not for hugging,

614
00:20:25,689 --> 00:20:28,050
you can choose to give me a high five or a fist bump.

615
00:20:29,209 --> 00:20:30,160
First of all,

616
00:20:31,420 --> 00:20:31,660
I'm,

617
00:20:31,709 --> 00:20:32,119
I'm

618
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:33,410
being gentle here,

619
00:20:33,699 --> 00:20:35,050
but I'm challenging you.

620
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:38,040
If you set a limit on a child hugging you,

621
00:20:38,619 --> 00:20:39,060
why?

622
00:20:40,459 --> 00:20:42,739
You need to do a real deep dive.

623
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:44,880
Into why

624
00:20:45,579 --> 00:20:47,479
Your 5 year old client.

625
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:49,609
Needs a limit

626
00:20:49,709 --> 00:20:50,739
when they want to hug you,

627
00:20:50,910 --> 00:20:51,869
an appropriate hug,

628
00:20:51,959 --> 00:20:52,650
let's be clear.

629
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:56,630
Just a good old fashioned 5 year old hug.

630
00:20:56,869 --> 00:20:57,619
I care about you,

631
00:20:57,739 --> 00:20:58,270
Miss Brenna.

632
00:20:58,310 --> 00:20:59,099
I wanna show you.

633
00:20:59,150 --> 00:21:00,270
I'm gonna give you a hug.

634
00:21:00,829 --> 00:21:01,589
Why

635
00:21:02,189 --> 00:21:03,130
do you reject

636
00:21:03,699 --> 00:21:05,069
that affection from that kid?

637
00:21:06,670 --> 00:21:08,930
I would never want to do anything

638
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:11,030
that makes a child turn around and go,

639
00:21:11,109 --> 00:21:11,609
why doesn't Ms.

640
00:21:11,660 --> 00:21:12,650
Brenna care about me?

641
00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:15,010
Why doesn't Miss Brenna want to hug me?

642
00:21:15,219 --> 00:21:16,719
Why doesn't Miss Brenna love me?

643
00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:17,300
Do,

644
00:21:17,420 --> 00:21:20,319
do we not have the relationship that I thought we had because

645
00:21:20,459 --> 00:21:20,819
wow,

646
00:21:20,910 --> 00:21:22,319
I adore her

647
00:21:22,540 --> 00:21:23,939
and I love coming here,

648
00:21:23,979 --> 00:21:25,359
but she won't even hug me.

649
00:21:26,589 --> 00:21:27,479
I don't ever

650
00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:29,540
want to put a kid in that position.

651
00:21:31,290 --> 00:21:35,670
So we need to be real mindful that it kind of comes with the territory.

652
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,800
And of course we set limits if something crosses a line.

653
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,199
Of course we set limits if something is inappropriate.

654
00:21:43,979 --> 00:21:44,500
But

655
00:21:44,819 --> 00:21:47,459
we have to preserve relationship at all costs.

656
00:21:47,619 --> 00:21:49,000
And you acknowledged it already,

657
00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:49,619
Mikayla.

658
00:21:49,729 --> 00:21:50,109
It's,

659
00:21:50,420 --> 00:21:50,540
we're,

660
00:21:50,579 --> 00:21:53,140
we're dealing with perception of rejection here.

661
00:21:54,500 --> 00:21:55,479
And so

662
00:21:55,859 --> 00:21:59,400
as much as you can handle and as much as you can tolerate

663
00:22:00,250 --> 00:22:01,880
within appropriate boundaries.

664
00:22:02,819 --> 00:22:04,800
It comes with working with kids.

665
00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:06,660
It comes with being child-centered.

666
00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:07,920
It comes with

667
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,560
children that love to show you

668
00:22:10,699 --> 00:22:11,619
that they care about you.

669
00:22:12,630 --> 00:22:12,829
Now,

670
00:22:13,109 --> 00:22:14,219
sometimes they show you that

671
00:22:14,540 --> 00:22:15,349
you tick them off.

672
00:22:15,589 --> 00:22:16,339
And so,

673
00:22:16,849 --> 00:22:17,290
sometimes the,

674
00:22:17,310 --> 00:22:19,229
the physical engagement is less pleasant.

675
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:20,250
Sometimes they're

676
00:22:20,790 --> 00:22:21,819
giving you Indian burns,

677
00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:23,229
and sometimes they're pulling your hair,

678
00:22:23,239 --> 00:22:25,329
and sometimes they're pouring sand on top of your head.

679
00:22:25,550 --> 00:22:27,410
Those are whole different conversations.

680
00:22:28,189 --> 00:22:30,390
But affection for affection's sake.

681
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:33,199
There's something really special about that.

682
00:22:33,439 --> 00:22:34,040
And look,

683
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,859
if we were adults working with adult clients,

684
00:22:37,319 --> 00:22:37,790
of course,

685
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,160
there have to be physical boundaries.

686
00:22:39,199 --> 00:22:41,099
You can't hug your adult clients.

687
00:22:41,739 --> 00:22:43,640
You can't hold your adult client's hand.

688
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:44,530
OK,

689
00:22:44,609 --> 00:22:45,369
of course,

690
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:47,770
when we're working with adult populations,

691
00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:49,170
the stakes are different.

692
00:22:49,969 --> 00:22:51,270
Working with children,

693
00:22:51,810 --> 00:22:52,949
watch a child,

694
00:22:53,329 --> 00:22:54,890
watch them interact with people,

695
00:22:54,969 --> 00:22:56,680
watch them interact with their siblings,

696
00:22:56,890 --> 00:22:58,359
watch them interact with their peers,

697
00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:00,010
watch them interact with their parents,

698
00:23:00,209 --> 00:23:01,239
with their teachers,

699
00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:02,709
with their coaches.

700
00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:05,099
Anyone in their life,

701
00:23:05,239 --> 00:23:05,910
watch them,

702
00:23:06,199 --> 00:23:07,140
they're affectionate.

703
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:08,359
They touch them.

704
00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:09,770
It's,

705
00:23:09,890 --> 00:23:11,630
it just goes with the territory y'all.

706
00:23:12,449 --> 00:23:13,310
So,

707
00:23:13,729 --> 00:23:15,969
do some deep dive thought.

708
00:23:16,829 --> 00:23:16,839
About

709
00:23:18,290 --> 00:23:19,810
where you are with this,

710
00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:21,650
what you think you can handle,

711
00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:24,229
how far the compass needle needs to move,

712
00:23:24,849 --> 00:23:26,670
and get to a point where,

713
00:23:26,770 --> 00:23:27,250
of course,

714
00:23:27,329 --> 00:23:30,310
boundaries are always going to be at the center of it all.

715
00:23:30,650 --> 00:23:32,270
If we have to set boundaries,

716
00:23:32,329 --> 00:23:32,949
we do.

717
00:23:33,819 --> 00:23:35,060
But beyond that,

718
00:23:35,310 --> 00:23:37,489
we're trying to just let kids be kids,

719
00:23:37,949 --> 00:23:40,089
and we're trying to preserve relationship at all costs.

720
00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:41,199
All right,

721
00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:41,670
Mikayla,

722
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:42,869
thank you so much for those questions.

723
00:23:42,949 --> 00:23:44,489
I hope that that's helpful for everybody.

724
00:23:44,829 --> 00:23:46,609
And if you want me to answer a question,

725
00:23:47,069 --> 00:23:47,540
reach out to me.

726
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,390
I'd love to hear from you.

727
00:23:48,469 --> 00:23:50,209
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

728
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,000
Really funny story on that note.

729
00:23:52,510 --> 00:23:52,989
Legit,

730
00:23:53,109 --> 00:23:55,729
I've been on two discovery calls in the last week,

731
00:23:55,989 --> 00:23:58,380
and both of them at some point on the call said,

732
00:23:58,579 --> 00:23:59,709
and should I just email you?

733
00:23:59,790 --> 00:23:59,900
Like,

734
00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:00,290
what's the

735
00:24:00,564 --> 00:24:01,135
Best email address.

736
00:24:01,244 --> 00:24:02,734
And as soon as I started to say it,

737
00:24:02,785 --> 00:24:03,084
they're like,

738
00:24:03,135 --> 00:24:03,535
oh my gosh,

739
00:24:03,614 --> 00:24:04,694
you say this every single time.

740
00:24:04,805 --> 00:24:06,334
Why did I just ask you that question?

741
00:24:07,135 --> 00:24:07,474
So,

742
00:24:07,535 --> 00:24:08,974
I feel like I say it all the time,

743
00:24:09,084 --> 00:24:10,405
but people still forget.

744
00:24:10,655 --> 00:24:10,895
So,

745
00:24:11,074 --> 00:24:12,814
brenna@thekidcounselor.com,

746
00:24:12,895 --> 00:24:14,875
for those of you that have heard it thousands of times,

747
00:24:14,974 --> 00:24:15,915
but don't remember.

748
00:24:16,214 --> 00:24:16,765
Oh my gosh,

749
00:24:16,814 --> 00:24:17,334
I love y'all.

750
00:24:17,494 --> 00:24:17,775
All right,

751
00:24:17,885 --> 00:24:18,435
have a good week.

752
00:24:18,494 --> 00:24:19,295
We'll talk again soon.

753
00:24:19,454 --> 00:24:19,775
Bye.

754
00:24:20,849 --> 00:24:24,640
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

755
00:24:24,890 --> 00:24:26,810
For more episodes and resources,

756
00:24:26,969 --> 00:24:31,729
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.