From Sex Cult Survivor to Feminist Adult Filmmaker - Inka Winter

<v Speaker 1>And that's why I never read the comment. I just
<v Speaker 1>want to like, I'm not even going to look amazing tonight.
<v Speaker 1>I love what you're wearing. Oh my god, we're all
<v Speaker 1>I have an angry clown. That is life. But that's
<v Speaker 1>a hard like unless it's like an NBA team or.
<v Speaker 2>Something like WHOA, hello, everybody. Welcome back to Holly Randall Unfiltered.
<v Speaker 2>So today's guest grew up inside a community that called
<v Speaker 2>itself sexually Liberated, and later learned it was a sex cult.
<v Speaker 2>That experience shaped how she understands consent, power and the
<v Speaker 2>damage caused when people are taught about sex without education
<v Speaker 2>or accountability. She's now an erotic filmmaker, sex educator, and
<v Speaker 2>the founder of a feminist production company built around autonomy
<v Speaker 2>and the female gates. We're going to talk about porn literacy,
<v Speaker 2>sex education, and what happens when society leaves people to
<v Speaker 2>learn about intimacy from the internet alone. This is inco Winter.
<v Speaker 3>Hi.
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad that we could finally make this happen. I
<v Speaker 2>know it's been a long time in the making, totally.
<v Speaker 2>Should we start from the beginning? Sure, you want to
<v Speaker 2>tell me your story because it's it it's one hell story.
<v Speaker 3>Sorry, and now I have to accept a but I mean, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>I grew up in a cult. I ended up there
<v Speaker 3>at four years old. My father had left. My mother
<v Speaker 3>thought it was like a temporary situation, and then you know,
<v Speaker 3>it became not temporary. In the beginning, it sort of
<v Speaker 3>was sold as this like liberated socialist experiment, and I think,
<v Speaker 3>like in the very beginning there was something socialist about
<v Speaker 3>it in the sense that like there wasn't any common
<v Speaker 3>there was only common property, there was no private property.
<v Speaker 3>Everybody owned all the clothes, all the things together, and
<v Speaker 3>so one of the I don't know what came first,
<v Speaker 3>but you know, the whole free sexuality was really tied
<v Speaker 3>in with like not owning any property, because relationships were
<v Speaker 3>seen as like property of people. But I mean, ultimately,
<v Speaker 3>the leader of Automune, I think he built this to
<v Speaker 3>live out his own desires and just sort of how
<v Speaker 3>he wanted to live life and how he wanted people
<v Speaker 3>to behave around him for him, and so it was
<v Speaker 3>basically I mean, he did refer to it as his
<v Speaker 3>like living art. So I mean, clearly he was very
<v Speaker 3>deliberate about shaping something in sort of his image.
<v Speaker 1>I guess right, And so I.
<v Speaker 3>Guess one of the main I think sort of. I mean,
<v Speaker 3>so there's different kinds of trauma that happened to us
<v Speaker 3>as children. One being separated from our parents. So you know,
<v Speaker 3>obviously the attachment trauma, no secure attachment, no figure that
<v Speaker 3>was there for us to take care for us to
<v Speaker 3>if there was anything that we needed to can I
<v Speaker 3>ask like how your mom?
<v Speaker 2>Did your mom know anyone at this commune? Like how
<v Speaker 2>did she even come across it?
<v Speaker 3>So she personally came across it through somebody who was there,
<v Speaker 3>like like a man that she met and sort of
<v Speaker 3>fell in love with. But one of the ways that they,
<v Speaker 3>I guess really made did marketing is they did theater
<v Speaker 3>in colleges around Europe. So they would have these like
<v Speaker 3>performance art pieces in college theaters and so kind of
<v Speaker 3>like college students would be enticed into joining right the commune,
<v Speaker 3>which at that time, you know, this is the seventies,
<v Speaker 3>so everybody's trying to be more liberated and like move
<v Speaker 3>away from like the repressiveness of the nineteen fifties, and
<v Speaker 3>so there's there's you know, if you look at it,
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of like oh yeah, this may sense
<v Speaker 3>for the time, right right, And also, like you know,
<v Speaker 3>in the beginning, it didn't look like a cult, and
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of people did join because they
<v Speaker 3>wanted sort of this. I mean, you know, people go
<v Speaker 3>to Burning Man, and I think that's the feeling that
<v Speaker 3>people had joining the cult, except that then you know,
<v Speaker 3>if Burning Man is a permanent camp, I don't know,
<v Speaker 3>it might be a cult.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
<v Speaker 2>So you're four, yeah, and you're being raised by strangers.
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I had substitute parents, but because attachment was considered
<v Speaker 3>bad also for children, like I was separated from those
<v Speaker 3>as well, like when I grew too attached, and that
<v Speaker 3>was true for everybody, like everybody was separated from their
<v Speaker 3>parents and then sort of separated from their other parents.
<v Speaker 2>You're gonna get a lot of this from me because
<v Speaker 2>I have a child, and like the thought of like
<v Speaker 2>my daughter going through this like makes my skin role.
<v Speaker 3>And this is like hard to hear for a lot
<v Speaker 3>of people that I think for parents it's.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah harder, yeah, yeah, turned out.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I did a lot of therapy, been in therapy
<v Speaker 3>for the past like thirty years.
<v Speaker 1>What I can't even imagine.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so when you become too attached to anyone, you
<v Speaker 2>get moved to another substitute parent, and.
<v Speaker 3>Then there's times where you just don't have a substitute parent,
<v Speaker 3>so you just sort of exist in this space of
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, you had I mean, what do you
<v Speaker 3>call them, like people like that, not like teachers, but
<v Speaker 3>you know, teachers that are around for the free time part,
<v Speaker 3>not social workers, but you know, like you know, people
<v Speaker 3>that are sort of like hurting the whole group of children.
<v Speaker 1>And so like nannies almost I don't know, like let's
<v Speaker 1>call it a kindergartener, right, Okay, I'm not.
<v Speaker 3>It's like you know, but yeah, like people that were
<v Speaker 3>responsible for looking after the you know, we were separated
<v Speaker 3>in age groups, so our age group had people that
<v Speaker 3>looked after them during the day because you know, you
<v Speaker 3>have to do keep children from i don't.
<v Speaker 2>Know, swallowing things, eating rats, and also like entertaining.
<v Speaker 3>And I think like the thing that's sort of like
<v Speaker 3>interesting because with you know, okay, we talked about the attachment.
<v Speaker 3>One of the I guess I don't even want to
<v Speaker 3>say positive, but like, you know, like it was an
<v Speaker 3>artist cult really, and I think there wasn't religion, but
<v Speaker 3>art was religion. But so one of the things that
<v Speaker 3>I did grow up with was a lot of creativity
<v Speaker 3>and play, and like filmmaking started really early, and I
<v Speaker 3>feel like I'm sure that that impacted, you know, my
<v Speaker 3>creativity and my expression and my you know, the fact
<v Speaker 3>that I wanted to do well. I didn't really want
<v Speaker 3>to become a filmmaker, but accidentally did and.
<v Speaker 1>Then it worked out right, right, right.
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, so that's a lot of the things we
<v Speaker 3>did as children was artsy stuff. And then so in
<v Speaker 3>the beginning, everything was like everybody's equal, and then a
<v Speaker 3>hierarchy was established, so Otomil was number one and his
<v Speaker 3>wife number two, and then like whatever three hundred and
<v Speaker 3>fifty seven.
<v Speaker 1>Was that intentional, did you?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Yeah, that was like that was sort of like,
<v Speaker 3>you know, from the oh we're all equal. Now it's
<v Speaker 3>like I'm the authoritarian leader and I'm number one, and
<v Speaker 3>I'm to be honest, I haven't really asked anybody like
<v Speaker 3>how did you just accept that from one day to
<v Speaker 3>the other, that's your child?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So, but then so also for us children, that
<v Speaker 3>was also established too. So for us children instead of
<v Speaker 3>like being all sort of these like kids that play
<v Speaker 3>with each other and whatever. We are all in a
<v Speaker 3>hierarchy with each other. So whoever is above me can
<v Speaker 3>tell me what to do, and whoever is below me,
<v Speaker 3>I can tell them what to do, and I'm always right.
<v Speaker 3>So there's no real like interaction of friendship. I mean
<v Speaker 3>at least like so for I became like the adaptive child,
<v Speaker 3>and so I was usually higher in the hierarchy because
<v Speaker 3>I did what people told me to do, and so
<v Speaker 3>I feel like being in that position really didn't allow
<v Speaker 3>you to have friends because you were just trying to
<v Speaker 3>like be in the system. I know from people that
<v Speaker 3>were lower in the hierarchy, they had a little bit
<v Speaker 3>more room for friendships because they were like, I don't
<v Speaker 3>give a fuck. But obviously they were punished then for
<v Speaker 3>you know, yea being bad or whatever.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, what kind of punishments do they They didn't, okay,
<v Speaker 4>So the most obvious punishment is to be in the
<v Speaker 4>lower in the hierarchy, So you didn't behave right and
<v Speaker 4>you're like lowered in the hierarchy.
<v Speaker 3>And sometimes these things happened like in a group. So
<v Speaker 3>there was something called palava. So the hierarchy was made
<v Speaker 3>in groups, but sometimes in front of all the grown ups.
<v Speaker 3>So there's like two hundred like grown up sitting and
<v Speaker 3>you're like being punished in the middle and you're coming
<v Speaker 3>lower in the hierarchy. So it's like definitely very emotionally
<v Speaker 3>like stressful, which is why I behaved well. So I
<v Speaker 3>never in this situation.
<v Speaker 1>To basically like publicly shamed.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.
<v Speaker 3>And then like the other thing that I'm still not
<v Speaker 3>entirely clear, but clear the purpose. There was something called
<v Speaker 3>in German, it's called bill and SWNDA, which kind of
<v Speaker 3>translates to educational something. And so sometimes for punishment, you
<v Speaker 3>would be in this group of people, like it's kind
<v Speaker 3>of like the tension. You would get detention, but you
<v Speaker 3>would do stuff like learning how to mint socks or
<v Speaker 3>just like random things that somebody thought of that day
<v Speaker 3>that I don't know.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's almost like writing like like lines, like doing
<v Speaker 2>what we call it standards.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and when we.
<v Speaker 2>Were kids, you had to write on a chalk for
<v Speaker 2>like a hundred times like I will not be bad.
<v Speaker 3>Exactly it was. And then like one time this thing
<v Speaker 3>was developed. It was called the black mark, and I
<v Speaker 3>know one like somebody actually drew us like black head,
<v Speaker 3>and so it's almost like the opposite of the star.
<v Speaker 3>The star is like when you're we didn't get stars,
<v Speaker 3>but like that, when you're bad, you get like the
<v Speaker 3>black mark. So that was also the thing.
<v Speaker 2>Is it wild for you to like tell people this
<v Speaker 2>story now and hear it coming out of your own mouth.
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, I'm like myself, I'm just like I think
<v Speaker 3>some of the times my laughter is just like I'm
<v Speaker 3>so cringed.
<v Speaker 1>I don't even know how else to Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because it's it's because I mean, at the time,
<v Speaker 2>it must have felt. I mean, I don't know if
<v Speaker 2>normal is the right word. Normality's relative, right, Like whatever
<v Speaker 2>we grew up with is what we eat, is what's
<v Speaker 2>normal to us. And then like, now that you've had
<v Speaker 2>the therapy, now that you live in the real world
<v Speaker 2>and you're telling people this story, it must be hard
<v Speaker 2>to hear it coming from yourself because and.
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes I think also it's like I'm cringing, and then
<v Speaker 3>sometimes I feel like the stuff is really heavy. So
<v Speaker 3>I feel like my laughter is also like making it
<v Speaker 3>okay for other people.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're it, yeah, yeah, I mean that's how we
<v Speaker 2>deal with a lot of painful things is through laughter, right, Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>don't worry I am not taking your laughter for you
<v Speaker 2>thinking it's actually funny because it's like crazy.
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, like abandonment by parents, hierarchy, so you know,
<v Speaker 3>all the regulation between relationships, and then sort of the
<v Speaker 3>sexualization of children. So the called itself was sort of
<v Speaker 3>they called it free sexuality, which I think back in
<v Speaker 3>the day that was you know, the thing free love exactly,
<v Speaker 3>but in this case, like free love was like you
<v Speaker 3>had to sleep with everybody, you know, like this is
<v Speaker 3>at it was like communicating how sex was supposed to
<v Speaker 3>be had. So sex was mandated. So there's just nothing
<v Speaker 3>like free about it, even though that was sort of
<v Speaker 3>the the name for it, you know, which obviously took
<v Speaker 3>me a while to figure out that like the irony
<v Speaker 3>of the labeling. But so I think I haven't even
<v Speaker 3>read or not in a long time, like all these
<v Speaker 3>like there's sort of manifestos that Auto wrote that sort
<v Speaker 3>of like sum our books, and some are these schemas
<v Speaker 3>where you sort of have like this is how a
<v Speaker 3>child should grow up and this is important and these
<v Speaker 3>values are important, and so like part of that was
<v Speaker 3>like sexual expression where you kind of like that's sort
<v Speaker 3>of not a child. It doesn't because belong in this category,
<v Speaker 3>right right, you know, yeah, And so I think there
<v Speaker 3>was like different kind of sexualization for different age groups. Obviously,
<v Speaker 3>Like in the end, Ottomile got arrested for sex with minors,
<v Speaker 3>so he started having sex with girls that were sort
<v Speaker 3>of like twelve. You know. There was also some younger
<v Speaker 3>there incidents and its own like thing, but like, so
<v Speaker 3>that happened, and then the same so the sort of
<v Speaker 3>the first night, the right to the first night thing.
<v Speaker 2>You know, yes, from I don't you remember from Brave Heart,
<v Speaker 2>oh Mortem, Knock Torn or.
<v Speaker 3>Something like that, and so like he would do that
<v Speaker 3>and then his like wife would do that with the boys,
<v Speaker 3>so you know, and then at some point, like it
<v Speaker 3>was decided that the these that age group teenagers or
<v Speaker 3>whatever you would call this age group is then integrated
<v Speaker 3>in the grown up sexuality, which you know is also
<v Speaker 3>just the legal yeah, but I mean in his mind
<v Speaker 3>it just was like, oh, even like when he was
<v Speaker 3>when he was arrested and in his trials, he's like, oh, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>but some African tribes it's normal there, and you know,
<v Speaker 3>therefore it should be normal and you know, just bullshit
<v Speaker 3>stuff obviously, and then like for us younger like I think,
<v Speaker 3>first of all, we were just exposed to sexuality in
<v Speaker 3>a way that we really like wasn't age appropriate at all,
<v Speaker 3>like seeing things and then sort of also being I
<v Speaker 3>guess like at a younger age, you're you're indoctrinated, not
<v Speaker 3>through like penetrative like naked sex, but through like you know,
<v Speaker 3>touch and other things that sort of you know, like
<v Speaker 3>like like acting sex.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's playing like playing doctor.
<v Speaker 3>No, more like touching. Okay, kissing, but like under the
<v Speaker 3>guided by grown ups.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, oh wow, you know yeah okay, so yeah, okay, okay,
<v Speaker 2>So he would have he or his wife deputing on
<v Speaker 2>the gender would be the first like sexual experience and
<v Speaker 2>sound how old are these kids?
<v Speaker 1>Like twelve?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, so like fourteen or you know.
<v Speaker 1>There wasn't like it wasn't like a specific age. It
<v Speaker 1>wasn't like you turn this age.
<v Speaker 3>I mean I think it was like no, no, no, It
<v Speaker 3>wasn't like whenever it was like ready, yeah, it was
<v Speaker 3>more like, oh yeah, we can reference. Did we just
<v Speaker 3>read something about I think Trump supposedly looking at girls
<v Speaker 3>and estimating how their ripeness is or something sounds like
<v Speaker 3>something something I just read I think with the epscene
<v Speaker 3>files it was more like that.
<v Speaker 1>It was like she exactly like okay, like I've I've
<v Speaker 1>decided that this.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, you look, you look right, you look ready for me,
<v Speaker 2>like I'm wow, So did that happen to you?
<v Speaker 3>I was twelve when it ended, so I escaped this
<v Speaker 3>wow thing.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that must But did you know that that was
<v Speaker 2>coming and was for you?
<v Speaker 3>You know, it's so weird because I didn't know that
<v Speaker 3>I was coming. At some point, I did hear somebody
<v Speaker 3>older tell me that she had sex with automule. And
<v Speaker 3>the problem in that sort of like closed system is
<v Speaker 3>now it it's also prestigious, right, So there was even
<v Speaker 3>some grown up women.
<v Speaker 1>That were jealous of girls.
<v Speaker 3>Having sex without a muir because it gave them like prestige, right,
<v Speaker 3>and so like it's just so this very convoluted thing,
<v Speaker 3>which is also why I think for some at that time,
<v Speaker 3>like as somebody that age, how would you know that
<v Speaker 3>this is wrong?
<v Speaker 1>Right of course?
<v Speaker 3>And also you're battling this, you know obviously like you
<v Speaker 3>don't like it, and there's different reactions from different people,
<v Speaker 3>but also like now you're being seen as like more important,
<v Speaker 3>like you know, it's a lot of stuff going on
<v Speaker 3>at the same time. That's getting really like complicated emotions.
<v Speaker 2>Like, okay, so, like the Commune is assigning value to
<v Speaker 2>you because you've had this sexual experience with this man
<v Speaker 2>at a very inappropriate age, with a man significantly older
<v Speaker 2>than you.
<v Speaker 1>Ork how old was he at this time?
<v Speaker 3>So it was like when when the Commune started, he
<v Speaker 3>was already twenty years older than everybody, So I would say,
<v Speaker 3>like he was maybe in his forties while everybody was
<v Speaker 3>sort of in their twenties, and so then you know,
<v Speaker 3>just forties, fifties, whatever, Wow, older.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, So okay, so when the whole thing came
<v Speaker 2>crashing down, Yeah, what was that experience?
<v Speaker 1>Like, like, was it raided by the police, like he
<v Speaker 1>was arrested.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what the context specifically was. I remember
<v Speaker 3>walking into like a kitchen and somebody being like like
<v Speaker 3>saying that he was arrested in me just being shocked
<v Speaker 3>and being just like why and obviously like brainwashed, right, So,
<v Speaker 3>like I don't know that anything that happened was wrong.
<v Speaker 3>I mean I don't at this point don't really know
<v Speaker 3>what happened specifically anyway, But I'm just kind of like,
<v Speaker 3>you know, I know, I'd known that there was like
<v Speaker 3>negative articles in the press, but obviously i'd been told that,
<v Speaker 3>you know, those are like wrong, like negative articles, they're
<v Speaker 3>just trying to hurt us, and we're so great, So
<v Speaker 3>you know, I believe this. I'm twelve years old, and
<v Speaker 3>so I'm just sort of like my world just ended,
<v Speaker 3>like I don't know, like I thought I would live
<v Speaker 3>there forever and be part of the system, and now
<v Speaker 3>I'm just like, I don't even know. So that was
<v Speaker 3>definitely a very surreal like experience of everything that you
<v Speaker 3>knew is no longer.
<v Speaker 1>Right, you know, So then what happened to you?
<v Speaker 3>So I then moved. My mother lived in Berlin. I
<v Speaker 3>moved to Berlin, and I actually went to a boarding school.
<v Speaker 3>There was sort of this liberal arts boarding school on
<v Speaker 3>an island in a lake in Berlin, because Berlin has
<v Speaker 3>lakes and islands. Uh huh there's a boarding school in
<v Speaker 3>one of them. Wow, I know. And like in the
<v Speaker 3>beginning it was kind of like I didn't like, you know,
<v Speaker 3>like not being with my mom. But in the end,
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, I think that was a really really good
<v Speaker 3>experience for me, and also in a way I think
<v Speaker 3>less shocking, like because it was sort of this you know,
<v Speaker 3>there was nature, it was an island, it was art.
<v Speaker 3>I think it was a little bit less shocking than
<v Speaker 3>if I had just lived in a city and like
<v Speaker 3>taken the train to school every day with like people
<v Speaker 3>that sort of are not you know. I feel like
<v Speaker 3>the people that went to that boarding school were just
<v Speaker 3>sort of more in line with you know, where I it's.
<v Speaker 1>The values that like I was supposed to have.
<v Speaker 2>The good ones say yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean because obviously,
<v Speaker 2>like it sounds like a terrible experience and I can't
<v Speaker 2>even imagine. But I mean there's no denying that there
<v Speaker 2>was great like art and creativity there and yeah, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>at least that in itself.
<v Speaker 3>And it's like, as I'm talking, like I'm kind of
<v Speaker 3>like just thinking, for like people that are listening, you know,
<v Speaker 3>the conclusion that is being made about people in porn
<v Speaker 3>is like they all had trauma and that's why. And
<v Speaker 3>I'm just like, oh my god, people are going to
<v Speaker 3>listen and be like, ah, yeah, now she's another victim
<v Speaker 3>by making porn because she was a victim, so anyway,
<v Speaker 3>we'll have to address that.
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, that's well, I mean the thing that I
<v Speaker 1>always say is.
<v Speaker 2>And I've had so many people on who have had
<v Speaker 2>very normal quote unquote childhoods. I had a very normal
<v Speaker 2>even though my parents worked imporn. I just write super
<v Speaker 2>normal childhood. And I don't have any trauma from my background.
<v Speaker 2>I'm so like, and the older I've gotten and the
<v Speaker 2>more people I've spoken to, like, I realized how fortunate
<v Speaker 2>I am for that. But I think that, like everybody
<v Speaker 2>has trauma in their lives, like completely many people, I
<v Speaker 2>completely in my genre, every industry. But like you're not
<v Speaker 2>going to interview a dentist and be like, oh, you
<v Speaker 2>got a dentistry because you had trauma in your life, right.
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean? Like it doesn't come up.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it doesn't come up even though they you know.
<v Speaker 3>And also, like if you think about women, you know,
<v Speaker 3>what is it one in three women experience of sode
<v Speaker 3>of sexual traumas. I mean obviously, yes, you'll throw a
<v Speaker 3>stone and you will hit five.
<v Speaker 1>This is true.
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, did your mother have any idea what
<v Speaker 2>was going on until after what that happened, and you
<v Speaker 2>feel about that?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we only recently kind of had like this really
<v Speaker 3>deep conversation. I think she's sort of really definitely had
<v Speaker 3>like guilt to deal with, and only recently I think
<v Speaker 3>the depths of all of it, you know, came up
<v Speaker 3>and it was really hard for her to hear. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>there are definitely tears and things.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but do you think that she's come to forgive herself.
<v Speaker 3>I think so. I think that like the last two
<v Speaker 3>years or three years, so funny story twenty twenty two.
<v Speaker 3>Summer of twenty twenty two, there was like, so there's
<v Speaker 3>this legal entity that still exists that sort of anyway,
<v Speaker 3>everybody in there is basically somebody who's been the cult.
<v Speaker 3>In the property that used to be the cult, like
<v Speaker 3>is still owned by people that were in the colt.
<v Speaker 2>That are not a cult, but now they're like a
<v Speaker 2>different char it's called a corporation.
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, long story short, there was a bunch of artwork,
<v Speaker 3>not just stuff that Ottomil created, but Ottomil was part
<v Speaker 3>of this thing called Vienna Actionism, so he was actually
<v Speaker 3>a famous artist along with these other people that sort
<v Speaker 3>of Austria looks to it as this like post war
<v Speaker 3>like you know, anyway, it's it's very precious to Austrian people.
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, so there was like this artwork that still
<v Speaker 3>was owned by this let's call it legal entity that
<v Speaker 3>was sold that gave like it made like ten million euros,
<v Speaker 3>and we our generation. I'm not really sure who started it,
<v Speaker 3>but people were like, we should have this as reparations.
<v Speaker 3>And so starting from twenty twenty two summer, me and
<v Speaker 3>a handful of other people like in the name of
<v Speaker 3>like everybody our age started to work on this reparation
<v Speaker 3>and talking to Lawy's it was like a whole thing.
<v Speaker 3>I can't even really go into it because it was
<v Speaker 3>really like exhausting and traumatizing in so many tears, and
<v Speaker 3>because now you know, we have to talk to the
<v Speaker 3>people who were in the cult, and some of them
<v Speaker 3>are super supportive and are like, yeah, what happened is crazy,
<v Speaker 3>and you know, and some people are like, oh, what
<v Speaker 3>was it really that bad? So anyway, it was, you know,
<v Speaker 3>But I think that for me that was sort of
<v Speaker 3>the time where I was like, I'm setting up to
<v Speaker 3>these people and I hadn't really like talked to my
<v Speaker 3>mom yet, and I was like, Okay, like I need
<v Speaker 3>to have this conversation. And so we really did a
<v Speaker 3>lot of work and we went to therapy together, and
<v Speaker 3>I feel like it's like done so much, and I, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>I feel like I really can't ask for more from
<v Speaker 3>my mom at this point.
<v Speaker 2>So how do you contextualize that experience today without letting
<v Speaker 2>it define you? I mean, I know you've had a
<v Speaker 2>lot of therapy, but yeah, you know, there's obviously I think,
<v Speaker 2>you know, like sort of the abandment and stuff that
<v Speaker 2>sort of shows up in relationships still that you know,
<v Speaker 2>I'm still working on.
<v Speaker 3>But I think, you know, the interesting thing is, you know,
<v Speaker 3>when I started making porn for women, like I made
<v Speaker 3>it out of like I actually had an abortion, I
<v Speaker 3>lost my sex drive. I was looking at things, I
<v Speaker 3>was like, I can't find anything. Nothing is there that
<v Speaker 3>like turns me on. Like I felt like there wasn't
<v Speaker 3>anything that's like, you know, central and sort of like
<v Speaker 3>visually stunning and just you know, kind of like speaks
<v Speaker 3>to me. And that's really why I started making porn,
<v Speaker 3>you know, long story short. And in the beginning, I
<v Speaker 3>was like, Okay, I'm doing this in spite of my childhood.
<v Speaker 3>And now I feel like, you know, the fact that
<v Speaker 3>I'm making like feminist porn, I'm putting like, you know,
<v Speaker 3>women's pleasure first, I'm doing scenarios that you know, like
<v Speaker 3>let's say a man is washing the dishes and that
<v Speaker 3>could lead to sex, you know, like which is you know,
<v Speaker 3>something that like for the malegates would probably not be
<v Speaker 3>that interesting.
<v Speaker 1>Have you seen those books porn for women?
<v Speaker 3>No?
<v Speaker 1>Oh you have it? Oh, I should get that for you.
<v Speaker 1>It's all hot men doing housework. Yeah, I need literally exactly.
<v Speaker 1>So that's what it is.
<v Speaker 3>That's not all that I'm doing. But I'm just a
<v Speaker 3>really good example of like something that wouldn't be made for.
<v Speaker 1>The mail games.
<v Speaker 3>Right right, I'm doing this and I was like, okay,
<v Speaker 3>there's nothing there. I want to do this for myself.
<v Speaker 3>And I'm like, okay, I'm doing this in spite of
<v Speaker 3>like what happened to me. And more and more I'm realizing, well,
<v Speaker 3>society that we live in is not that different from
<v Speaker 3>the cult that I grew up. The cult that I
<v Speaker 3>grew up was some sort of like extreme form of
<v Speaker 3>that and the pagiarchy, and you know, like legislating house
<v Speaker 3>sex is supposed to be had. But we are currently
<v Speaker 3>also as a society living in a cult where we
<v Speaker 3>are being legislated, especially women, of like how we should
<v Speaker 3>behave abortion and this and that so many things. You know,
<v Speaker 3>age verification is part of the whole thing. And so
<v Speaker 3>I feel like my making feminist porn for me is
<v Speaker 3>kind of my form of social activism. And it's also
<v Speaker 3>kind of like a way of like liberating that you know,
<v Speaker 3>experience where I felt like I was, you know, in
<v Speaker 3>a way made to be like to shut up and
<v Speaker 3>to not have a voice about anything that pertained to myself.
<v Speaker 3>Obviously also sexuality, but much more than that. And so
<v Speaker 3>I feel like, in a way, making feminist porn is
<v Speaker 3>me also processing my childhood and society at large.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's that's a really good take on it. So
<v Speaker 2>you I mean, you talk about porn literacy, obviously, what
<v Speaker 2>does that mean to you? And because there's gonna be
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people that are gonna hear that term
<v Speaker 2>and they're gonna be like, they're gonna have no idea
<v Speaker 2>what we're talking about.
<v Speaker 3>Like, porn literacy means understanding what porn is, what the
<v Speaker 3>purposes of porn, what the different kinds of are of porn,
<v Speaker 3>and mainly that porn is a fantasy. And you know,
<v Speaker 3>I have taken it upon myself to create more like
<v Speaker 3>real life sex that is like you know more. When
<v Speaker 3>I talk to talent, I asked them to do like
<v Speaker 3>at home sex versus like performative sex. But a lot
<v Speaker 3>of porn is performance because it's a fantasy that is
<v Speaker 3>fulfilling something you know other than real life. You know,
<v Speaker 3>it's movies or things that you know not necessarily happen
<v Speaker 3>in real life. But yeah, porn literacy is like it
<v Speaker 3>is the only way that we can create context for
<v Speaker 3>porn and understand porn and the purpose of porn and
<v Speaker 3>watch it with knowledge about what we're seeing. Because I
<v Speaker 3>think that the lack of porn literacy is that, you know,
<v Speaker 3>the lack of sex education, which sort of goes hand
<v Speaker 3>in hand with porn literacy, because if you if people
<v Speaker 3>understood what sex is supposed to look like between two
<v Speaker 3>consenting adults, and that by that, I don't mean like
<v Speaker 3>what is specifically done, but like that consent is to
<v Speaker 3>be asked. That you know, people are different from each other, people,
<v Speaker 3>different people like different things. If you have that knowledge
<v Speaker 3>and then and then you know porn is a fantasy,
<v Speaker 3>then you can watch porn and not get your values
<v Speaker 3>from porn and not use porn as an education because
<v Speaker 3>you know it's not real. But the risk of sort
<v Speaker 3>of like porn influencing people's ideas of sex is only
<v Speaker 3>because they don't know what to measure it against. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>and that's because they're not educated and so like one
<v Speaker 3>of the things. And that's what I you know, ask
<v Speaker 3>David lay about is you know, like, are there any
<v Speaker 3>studies that sort of show sort of the influence of
<v Speaker 3>porn on people, And he was saying that it's basically
<v Speaker 3>good studies have shown that people that do not know
<v Speaker 3>that porn isn't real that mostly come from conservative households
<v Speaker 3>that don't have a lot of sex education or that
<v Speaker 3>don't have grown ups that they can sort of talk
<v Speaker 3>to about sex. Those are the people that are being
<v Speaker 3>influenced by stereotypes in porn because they don't know that
<v Speaker 3>it's not real.
<v Speaker 2>What are some of the most common misconceptions about sex
<v Speaker 2>or bodies that you see stemming from porn without context.
<v Speaker 3>I think that some porn still has, you know, questionable
<v Speaker 3>gender roles. I think that some positions or things are
<v Speaker 3>not always pleasurable to the people that are performing.
<v Speaker 2>Them, like pile driver, Yeah, I mean, like you know,
<v Speaker 2>and wild positions there like yeah, or like.
<v Speaker 3>Oh, let's have this two women at sex and then
<v Speaker 3>she orgasms, you know, like probably not did she have
<v Speaker 3>any sort of sensation during that time? We don't actually know,
<v Speaker 3>you know, but she pretended.
<v Speaker 1>That there was because it's an acting.
<v Speaker 3>So I think sort of like what women need to
<v Speaker 3>actually experience pleasure is just sort of not to be
<v Speaker 3>learned from porn because it's a performance. And that doesn't
<v Speaker 3>mean that some porn doesn't show that. And obviously the
<v Speaker 3>porn that I do like is very you know, but
<v Speaker 3>also mainstream porn some there's a lot of people like
<v Speaker 3>women that experience real orgasms, but you know, statistically speaking,
<v Speaker 3>how many times when when is it happening? What is
<v Speaker 3>totally fake? Like don't the viewer doesn't know? What?
<v Speaker 2>Do you wish that people were taught about sex before
<v Speaker 2>they encountered porn.
<v Speaker 3>I mean mainly that it's a fantasy, and also that
<v Speaker 3>everything that's happening in porn, like I legit porn with
<v Speaker 3>like the the real studios that make porn is negotiated
<v Speaker 3>ahead of time. Talent was talking about this, so if
<v Speaker 3>there's a random thing that's happening, the talent both had
<v Speaker 3>agreed to it ahead of time. So choking doesn't randomly happen.
<v Speaker 3>It happened because somebody said, yes, I'm okay with that.
<v Speaker 3>And so you can't watch porn and be like, oh,
<v Speaker 3>this is what women like and this is okay to
<v Speaker 3>just do. It's like, no, I have to talk to
<v Speaker 3>my partner and find out if she likes that. And
<v Speaker 3>I feel like, obviously, you know, make love not porn.
<v Speaker 3>I haven't seen the educational part on there in a
<v Speaker 3>long time, but she used to have that there, sort
<v Speaker 3>of like, oh, in porn, men come on women's faces
<v Speaker 3>a lot. I would say, most women don't like that
<v Speaker 3>most of the time.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it gets in our hair and they're going to
<v Speaker 2>wash it in your eyes, gets in your eyes. I
<v Speaker 2>don't know if you've ever had come in your eyes,
<v Speaker 2>but it's the worst feeling.
<v Speaker 1>I have not but it's terrible coming. Let me just
<v Speaker 1>tell you it hurts a lot.
<v Speaker 3>I've seen it in people's eyes by accident and it
<v Speaker 3>was not good.
<v Speaker 1>But anyway, so there's just like.
<v Speaker 3>A lot of things you know like that that you
<v Speaker 3>know it's it's it's made to show a fantasy that
<v Speaker 3>somebody gets off on versus, oh, this is something that's
<v Speaker 3>probably pleasurable at home.
<v Speaker 2>Let's step back a little bit and talk about your
<v Speaker 2>entry into actually making a directing point, because I know
<v Speaker 2>you were styling before, and we were talking about funny
<v Speaker 2>story earlier that actually you had been to my place.
<v Speaker 1>You'd met my mom before on a.
<v Speaker 2>Deadpool commercial that was shot at at our ranch. But
<v Speaker 2>then obviously from there on you take a different path.
<v Speaker 1>So how did that happen?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I feel like I've kind of continued doing
<v Speaker 3>some word work here and there because you know, like
<v Speaker 3>we're all hustling. Yeah, and apparently the point that I
<v Speaker 3>create is very niche. I wish it wasn't, but it's niche,
<v Speaker 3>so you know, yeah, you guys should all watch it
<v Speaker 3>so that it's less less nache.
<v Speaker 2>And actually, even if you're I was just talking with
<v Speaker 2>Jade Venus about this earlier because I was asking her
<v Speaker 2>if she had any interest in directing. And even when
<v Speaker 2>you're directing for like the big companies, which I've done,
<v Speaker 2>like you still don't get paid that much now, directors
<v Speaker 2>are really not paid that much. And I think it
<v Speaker 2>would be surprise people to hear.
<v Speaker 3>No, no, I agree, this industry is not as lucrative
<v Speaker 3>for most people. Yeah, as you think oh, it was
<v Speaker 3>in the eighties when it was just all like and
<v Speaker 3>the internet was there, and you know you could upload
<v Speaker 3>it picture pixeled image and make like a lot of
<v Speaker 3>fun anyway. Yeah, But so basically I was working as
<v Speaker 3>a costume designer and I just like sort of, you know,
<v Speaker 3>as I was looking for porn and not finding anything,
<v Speaker 3>this why is there anything? Blah blah. This question just
<v Speaker 3>sort of was there. And then like one day I
<v Speaker 3>saw this GQ Spain video that was like, you know
<v Speaker 3>when fifty Shades of Gray came out and made sort
<v Speaker 3>of like BDSM a little bit more mainstream.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.
<v Speaker 3>And so there was this like like it wasn't even
<v Speaker 3>a bds M video, It's just like a very high
<v Speaker 3>fashionateditorial video that had like a lot of leather shot
<v Speaker 3>in slow motion. And I was like, Oh, that's what
<v Speaker 3>I want porn to look like. And then I was like, oh,
<v Speaker 3>I can make porn look like this because I know
<v Speaker 3>the right people to do that. And then I made
<v Speaker 3>this teaser with just like crew that I knew from
<v Speaker 3>you know, being in this world, and I sent it
<v Speaker 3>because we had shot at Kelly Collins location for another
<v Speaker 3>feature film for a low budget feature film. So somehow
<v Speaker 3>it got to her and that's when she was still
<v Speaker 3>at Penthouse, and so she invited me and she wanted
<v Speaker 3>to do like something together, which didn't work out because
<v Speaker 3>you know, then Pentos went bankrupt and all these things happened.
<v Speaker 3>But I was like my first sort of like talking
<v Speaker 3>to somebody, And at that point I had wanted to
<v Speaker 3>make basically softcore porn like movies, sex scene, just like elongated,
<v Speaker 3>like pretty, but I hadn't thought of making explicit porn yet.
<v Speaker 3>And so she was like, well, you know, if we
<v Speaker 3>like work together, there'd be a soft version and a
<v Speaker 3>hard version. Would you be okay with that?
<v Speaker 1>And I was just like okay.
<v Speaker 3>And I remember like walking out of that and calling
<v Speaker 3>my DP like cinematographer and being like I just agreed
<v Speaker 3>to this, and then like asking women and being like, well,
<v Speaker 3>I'm making porn for women, Like what do you think
<v Speaker 3>And they're like, oh, well, if it's shot, well we
<v Speaker 3>want to see that. And I was like, well, the
<v Speaker 3>whole point of re making porn is to shoot it. Well,
<v Speaker 3>so like I guess explicit it is, yeah, And I
<v Speaker 3>mean I guess the funnier story of like in the beginning,
<v Speaker 3>I didn't even think I would be directing. And I
<v Speaker 3>had this like female cinematographer who was a director that
<v Speaker 3>I wanted to shoot this teaser and she was no
<v Speaker 3>longer available, and she like connected me with another cinematographer
<v Speaker 3>and then I was like, but who's gonna direct it?
<v Speaker 3>And she's like you, and I was like okay. And
<v Speaker 3>that's really how I started directing.
<v Speaker 1>For almost like a happy action because I.
<v Speaker 3>Just kind of said okay, and then I said okay again.
<v Speaker 1>Oh my god, I feel like Ernie. Do you remember
<v Speaker 1>was it Jim Powers?
<v Speaker 2>It said that he started directing because he showed up
<v Speaker 2>to a set and the director was so high that
<v Speaker 2>he couldn't do the job, so he stepped in. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>so completely different person shoots the polar opposite.
<v Speaker 1>Of what you do. But it sounds like you guys
<v Speaker 1>almost like fell into it for like for the same reasons,
<v Speaker 1>which is kind of funny. Okay, So what was the
<v Speaker 1>first like porn that you ever shot?
<v Speaker 3>The first time? Like I was trying to shoot porn.
<v Speaker 3>But he didn't know anybody in this industry. I didn't
<v Speaker 3>know any like performers or anything. And I always knew
<v Speaker 3>that I wanted sex education to be part of what
<v Speaker 3>I was doing, and so I was like, okay, sex
<v Speaker 3>education videos do That's easy when a later's actors, you know,
<v Speaker 3>like you know, you find a couple of people, you
<v Speaker 3>make this film like it's not a big deal. And
<v Speaker 3>so I made that and it was like the first
<v Speaker 3>thing that I've ever made is called Justges and it's
<v Speaker 3>like a spoof commercial for semen, kind of like that
<v Speaker 3>dead Pool thing that we did back then that was
<v Speaker 3>like a viagraa inspired dead Pool thing. And then submitted
<v Speaker 3>it to Dance Average Film Festival Hump and got in
<v Speaker 3>and then like I went to Portland and I was
<v Speaker 3>part of this Facebook group back in the day when
<v Speaker 3>you could say, you know, post naked photos on Facebook,
<v Speaker 3>I mean in a private group. I it was like
<v Speaker 3>the you did in private groups. We had a whole
<v Speaker 3>Facebook group where like everybody was posting naked photos of
<v Speaker 3>themselves and it was like these burning men, like you know, exhibitionists,
<v Speaker 3>like polyamorous people. And so I went to Portland and
<v Speaker 3>I met some of the people in the group and
<v Speaker 3>I was like, you know, I had this educational film
<v Speaker 3>and hump, but I was telling them what I actually
<v Speaker 3>wanted to do, and so one of them was like,
<v Speaker 3>I would shoot porn with you. And then she's like,
<v Speaker 3>I'll be in La in January and my partner's there
<v Speaker 3>and his girlfriend's there, and I was like, okay, let's
<v Speaker 3>shoot for Oh my gosh.
<v Speaker 1>So the first.
<v Speaker 3>Films that, the first five films that I made were
<v Speaker 3>just like with real couples.
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow. So they had never like really done porn themselves.
<v Speaker 3>Nobody had done porn before. I mean, obviously they were
<v Speaker 3>used to I feel like being they'd never been in
<v Speaker 3>front of a camera, and I feel like for a
<v Speaker 3>lot a lot of them that was kind of a
<v Speaker 3>lot their dream. But they've just been like definitely in
<v Speaker 3>like situations where publicly and you know, like group things
<v Speaker 3>and things where they observing was part of the thing, right.
<v Speaker 3>But so, yeah, they hadn't done porn. I hadn't done porn.
<v Speaker 1>But I actually really really really liked that.
<v Speaker 3>That's how it started because I feel like I went
<v Speaker 3>with the couples like connection and chemistry and all of that,
<v Speaker 3>and I feel like it empowered me to then ask
<v Speaker 3>the non performance from performers, because I was starting out
<v Speaker 3>with couples that didn't perform they were just intimate with
<v Speaker 3>each other and we were just observing, and so I
<v Speaker 3>feel like that really worked out well for what I
<v Speaker 3>was trying to do.
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, when people hear the phrase feminist porn, what do
<v Speaker 2>they usually misunderstand? Because I feel like that phrase gets
<v Speaker 2>thrown around. So does feminism too. Oh, Like the word
<v Speaker 2>feminism itself can be completely different things to different people,
<v Speaker 2>and I feel like it's almost lost its impact.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I think I think some of the people
<v Speaker 3>have like an issue with it. I think that feminism
<v Speaker 3>means like man hating, right, and that like feminist porn
<v Speaker 3>is probably like porn in which men are punished or something.
<v Speaker 3>I mean that could be aborn, you.
<v Speaker 1>Know, yeah, I mean just I mean, like.
<v Speaker 3>You know, porn is like as involve totally or there
<v Speaker 3>could be beds m where the male is the submissive,
<v Speaker 3>you know, but like that's punishing men is in feminism,
<v Speaker 3>Like feminism is about.
<v Speaker 1>Equality equal rights.
<v Speaker 3>So that means women need more rights because they have less.
<v Speaker 3>They don't need more rights because they have equal and
<v Speaker 3>they want more rights than men. And the reason that
<v Speaker 3>we're still like need feminism in this world is because
<v Speaker 3>we don't have equal rights. You know, you can see
<v Speaker 3>that state by state women have different rights, men have
<v Speaker 3>the same rights in all states. So therefore we can
<v Speaker 3>know for a fact that women's rights are not equal,
<v Speaker 3>and that's why we still need feminism. And so for me,
<v Speaker 3>feminist porn just means showing scenarios that women would enjoy,
<v Speaker 3>that men can also enjoy, but that not all men
<v Speaker 3>are going to like seek out where you're sort of like,
<v Speaker 3>you know, there's some things where you're like, oh, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>most men are going to be into this, and then
<v Speaker 3>there's some things like as we talked about the chores
<v Speaker 3>porn for women, whereas like, yeah, any woman that I've
<v Speaker 3>ever spoken to finds that hot if the man does
<v Speaker 3>something around the house, is we consider that foreplay? Now
<v Speaker 3>that's like literally part of the conversation of foreplay. It's
<v Speaker 3>just something that's sort of like, yeah, it shows a
<v Speaker 3>part of sexuality that is from a feel of perspective
<v Speaker 3>that hasn't been shown before in male centric porn. So
<v Speaker 3>in a way, even here it's more like equalizing versus
<v Speaker 3>like we're punishing.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, so when you think about making a scene,
<v Speaker 2>right and you think about making it from the female gaze,
<v Speaker 2>like what are some things that might make that scene
<v Speaker 2>specifically different than like what we would call mainstream porn.
<v Speaker 3>It's more like I make all the scenes that I make,
<v Speaker 3>I create with the female talent, So that means that
<v Speaker 3>some of the things could also mimic like poort that
<v Speaker 3>we're used to because that specific woman is into that
<v Speaker 3>specific thing. And I remember, actually, Galrichi in your podcast
<v Speaker 3>that clip where she's like, but what if we want
<v Speaker 3>to be degraded? Right, And I'm like, yeah, if you
<v Speaker 3>want to be degraded, you should totally be degraded because
<v Speaker 3>you want that. But applying that to women that don't
<v Speaker 3>enjoy that just doesn't work, you know. So I feel like,
<v Speaker 3>in a way, most of the scenes that I make
<v Speaker 3>aren't specifically like anything other than what that specific female
<v Speaker 3>talent is into. And some things again talking about the
<v Speaker 3>you know what, there's a couple of scenarios that I'm like, anyway,
<v Speaker 3>the dishwashing comes to mind, the easiest that are just
<v Speaker 3>sort of like, Okay, we just know that wouldn't be
<v Speaker 3>a thing in sort of male centric porn, But it
<v Speaker 3>doesn't necessarily have to look different. It's more like it
<v Speaker 3>feels different because it was authentic and like I also
<v Speaker 3>ask all of the female talent who they want to
<v Speaker 3>be paired with, so that there's already chemistry and connection
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't have to be performed, but it's like authentically there.
<v Speaker 3>And if there is sort of like BDSM or something
<v Speaker 3>happening where like there's sort of like pain or whatever
<v Speaker 3>submission involved, I will make it very clear that this
<v Speaker 3>particular talent wanted that. So either some sort of conversation
<v Speaker 3>in the beginning or like something that is like, oh, yeah,
<v Speaker 3>she wants this, and yes she agreed to that. I
<v Speaker 3>can't just randomly do that. I need to ask.
<v Speaker 2>First, so you show like the full autonomy yeah the
<v Speaker 2>female Yeah yeah. Is there any like common thread that
<v Speaker 2>you find is in all of your work or what
<v Speaker 2>you would consider feminists born? Because a lot of what
<v Speaker 2>people consider to be like what is what do women want?
<v Speaker 2>The way I should put it better is that like
<v Speaker 2>they're more inclined to want like a storyline like.
<v Speaker 1>A why are we here? Why are we doing this?
<v Speaker 2>As it opposed to men tempt sometimes be and again
<v Speaker 2>like not everybody you know, like there's.
<v Speaker 3>Right, like it's it's not even like it doesn't have
<v Speaker 3>to be a whole story that doesn't have to a
<v Speaker 3>lot of my scenes don't have dialogue. But when I
<v Speaker 3>also like I use the word storyline, But in the end,
<v Speaker 3>it's context. There needs to be context for sex, and
<v Speaker 3>I do think that most women want context, even if
<v Speaker 3>the context is that they're being degraded. You know, like
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't have to be romantic. You know, this sort
<v Speaker 3>of idea that that porn for women is more romantic
<v Speaker 3>can be true for people, but it doesn't have to.
<v Speaker 3>I think that a lot of women enjoy being submissive
<v Speaker 3>and BDSM. I think that's really a big part of
<v Speaker 3>like female sexuality for many. So yeah, it's more like
<v Speaker 3>context that isn't randomly because they happened to be in
<v Speaker 3>the same room, now they have sex because because the pizza,
<v Speaker 3>Yeah pizza, Like I showed up at the door, and
<v Speaker 3>so now there's a man and a woman, and because
<v Speaker 3>there's a man and a woman, that automatically leads to sex.
<v Speaker 2>Right, Like, Yeah, you also work as a sex educator
<v Speaker 2>and counselor what patterns do you see that directly trace
<v Speaker 2>back to poor sex education?
<v Speaker 3>I think that a lot of like the lack of empowerment,
<v Speaker 3>and to be honest, I think that like both men
<v Speaker 3>and women, you know, need better education. I think that
<v Speaker 3>that obviously, our society kind of like gives men a
<v Speaker 3>little bit more autonomy and agency in what sex they.
<v Speaker 1>Sort of are allowed to have or is sort of like.
<v Speaker 3>Legitimized, and so I think that also for a lot
<v Speaker 3>of men, it's easier to orgasm just from penetration. So
<v Speaker 3>I think the lack of sex education is sort of
<v Speaker 3>like we're not teaching about you know, communication and consent,
<v Speaker 3>but also not about pleasure. So a lot of people
<v Speaker 3>are out there not sure how to find that. And
<v Speaker 3>also sort of if you buy into this, penis and
<v Speaker 3>vagina sex needs to happen, and that's how orgasm happens,
<v Speaker 3>being not having the agency to ask to use a
<v Speaker 3>vibrator in addition to that, right, like it doesn't have
<v Speaker 3>to be we're not doing penis and vagina sex, but
<v Speaker 3>what can we add that there is an orgasm for
<v Speaker 3>the female as well, And all of that is part
<v Speaker 3>of sex education, is like you know, pleasure education or
<v Speaker 3>like stuff like I had somebody who was like, Okay,
<v Speaker 3>the guy wasn't using a condom, he didn't have a condom,
<v Speaker 3>blah blah, and I was like, what if you buy condoms?
<v Speaker 3>She's like, I am allowed to do that? And I'm like, yes,
<v Speaker 3>you are allowed to have condoms on you and the
<v Speaker 3>man that the man uses it if he didn't bring one.
<v Speaker 1>Wow, yes, living in that world. Yeah, but that is
<v Speaker 1>this world. This is that world. It's crazy. Yeah.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we just are in this like really like very
<v Speaker 3>selected world where we're all like sort of have agency
<v Speaker 3>and we're asking for things and so we kind of
<v Speaker 3>forget that a lot of people don't live this way.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>No, that's absolutely true. What gives you hope about where sexuality,
<v Speaker 2>media and education are headed.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I think that conversation is happening more. I
<v Speaker 3>think that a lot of talent is taking it upon
<v Speaker 3>themselves to do more sort of like speaking up. I
<v Speaker 3>was actually just contacted by the uth University of something
<v Speaker 3>in Ireland who is doing a study on porn literacy.
<v Speaker 3>So like that gives me hope, and I think overall,
<v Speaker 3>I am really really really happy that you know, like
<v Speaker 3>OnlyFans on these platforms exist for talent to monetize their
<v Speaker 3>own content, because that makes them less dependent on accepting
<v Speaker 3>scenes that they're not interested in doing and kind of
<v Speaker 3>creating their own like like having autonomy of what they're filming,
<v Speaker 3>and so I feel like that also gives me hope
<v Speaker 3>for the entire industry because hopefully, at some point, if
<v Speaker 3>studios are not needed the way, then they have to
<v Speaker 3>kind of like be more okay, this is talent is
<v Speaker 3>no longer accepting certain things.
<v Speaker 2>So I mean, I have to say, like, just from
<v Speaker 2>experience of having been in the industry so long and
<v Speaker 2>seeing how things have changed changed and being around it's
<v Speaker 2>well before the only revolution, like there's been a dramatic
<v Speaker 2>shift in the way that the studios treat talent.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah yeah, genetic yeah yeah, yeah yeah, and there's always
<v Speaker 3>like a room for improvement, of.
<v Speaker 2>Course, So I mean, I definitely, you know, there were
<v Speaker 2>times that I was admonished or even lost work because
<v Speaker 2>I refuse to push talent to do things that the
<v Speaker 2>studios wanted me to do. The talent like demonstrated they
<v Speaker 2>were uncomfortable with such things and I was not going
<v Speaker 2>to make them do that, and I would, you know,
<v Speaker 2>I just would. They're like, well, you're not getting us
<v Speaker 2>what we want, and you know, we're not going to
<v Speaker 2>hire you anymore, and that this is what they're being
<v Speaker 2>paid to do. And that kind of thing. And yeah,
<v Speaker 2>and now it's like, you know, I mean especially obviously
<v Speaker 2>depends on the studio, but you know.
<v Speaker 3>And on the director, Like all studios like really have
<v Speaker 3>different directors, so within the studio there.
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, but I will say, like, you know, I
<v Speaker 2>mean when I was still directing, towards the end of
<v Speaker 2>my directing, I was only directed for what is now ALU.
<v Speaker 2>But they were very adamant, like after you know, COVID
<v Speaker 2>and they went through this whole like kind of house
<v Speaker 2>cleaning of like directors and like completely changed the way
<v Speaker 2>that they like structured things. And they were very, you know,
<v Speaker 2>strongly supportive of making sure that every talent was comfortable
<v Speaker 2>with what we were doing and that if there was
<v Speaker 2>something they didn't like, that we would change the script.
<v Speaker 2>And I remember like I would call Rachel was the
<v Speaker 2>one who was my boss, and I would call her
<v Speaker 2>and I'd be like, hey, this person like doesn't want
<v Speaker 2>to do this or can't do this or something, and
<v Speaker 2>she would be like that's fine, like we won't do it,
<v Speaker 2>and she'd be like, make sure they understand that this
<v Speaker 2>does not mean we're not going to hire them, Yeah, exactly,
<v Speaker 2>Like please make sure that they understand that like they're
<v Speaker 2>not compromising their position with us, and that that is
<v Speaker 2>one to eighty from like what I had experienced previously.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I mean I actually work as an intimacy
<v Speaker 3>coordinator for Door Cells, So for Dozel, it's definitely this thing.
<v Speaker 3>It's like, you know, there's a list of things, you say,
<v Speaker 3>anything that you don't want, and then that's not happening
<v Speaker 3>here at the end, Like there's no discussion. You know,
<v Speaker 3>if you don't want to do it, you don't do it,
<v Speaker 3>and that's it. Obviously. I think you know, we're in
<v Speaker 3>a world where you know, sex happens on screen, so
<v Speaker 3>there's sort of like, okay, the expectation that maybe there's
<v Speaker 3>kissing and penetration where sort.
<v Speaker 1>Of like you know, that's versally things.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but like anything beyond that is sort of like
<v Speaker 3>you know, up to the person, you know, but like yeah,
<v Speaker 3>there's like there's a minimum that. It's just funny because
<v Speaker 3>like I talk to people that do intimacy coordination in
<v Speaker 3>like mainstream film, and I'm like, it's a totally different expectation,
<v Speaker 3>Like obviously you kind of have to negotiate kissing, whereas
<v Speaker 3>like you know, when you show up to a porn
<v Speaker 3>set to have sex, you're kind of assuming you're going
<v Speaker 3>to kiss somebody.
<v Speaker 2>Though I have had talent tell me that they will.
<v Speaker 2>I've heard that too because they have a boyfriend. And
<v Speaker 2>then and that's too intimate.
<v Speaker 3>Yes, And I've heard that ys, and then that's okay too,
<v Speaker 3>and then that yeah, it's okay, you know, yeah, one
<v Speaker 3>hundred percent. But I still definitely know that, Like I
<v Speaker 3>know some you know, creators that do very well on
<v Speaker 3>OnlyFans and whatnot, and they are saying to me, like,
<v Speaker 3>there's certain directors of studies I don't work with because
<v Speaker 3>I don't like how they do things, and then they
<v Speaker 3>have the power to do that, and somebody who's sort
<v Speaker 3>of not at that point, they still have to kind
<v Speaker 3>of you know. So I really am really loving that
<v Speaker 3>sort of yeah side of it.
<v Speaker 2>If someone is watching this and hasn't seen any of
<v Speaker 2>your films.
<v Speaker 1>Where should they go?
<v Speaker 2>What's the one scene, what's the one movie that they
<v Speaker 2>should definitely check out?
<v Speaker 3>Well, so four playfilms dot com is where you find
<v Speaker 3>all my scenes. And I'm like, I have a hard
<v Speaker 3>time sort of saying this or that because I feel
<v Speaker 3>like they're all so different you know, I have sort
<v Speaker 3>of like like like soft romantic things, some more like
<v Speaker 3>BDSM heavy things, Like I directed something that's now on
<v Speaker 3>my website as Shurt Manner. That's the sort of bridgitt
<v Speaker 3>and inspired porn that I'm obviously like, really loving. I
<v Speaker 3>still love the first scene that I ever shot, and
<v Speaker 3>it's like in this, in this shower. It's a very
<v Speaker 3>simple scene, but it just has all of this sort
<v Speaker 3>of censuality that I wanted to, you know, do. But
<v Speaker 3>then like you know, there's a scene where a guy
<v Speaker 3>dressed in sort of like a wolf's costume is chasing
<v Speaker 3>his wife through the forest in like a antler costume
<v Speaker 3>and sort of like a primal fantasy that I also
<v Speaker 3>think is really hot, so.
<v Speaker 1>So hard, it's all over the place. Yeah, okay, all
<v Speaker 1>my children.
<v Speaker 3>From all.
<v Speaker 1>What gives you.
<v Speaker 2>Hope for the future of adult I know we're facing
<v Speaker 2>down a lot of yeah, difficult things at the moment,
<v Speaker 2>but there is there a light at the end of
<v Speaker 2>the tunnel. Do you see progress being made?
<v Speaker 3>It's so hard because I feel like I feel like
<v Speaker 3>within our industry we're making progress, but then I feel
<v Speaker 3>like legislation wise, we're going five steps back. So It's like,
<v Speaker 3>it's kind of hard to be hopeful when you're not
<v Speaker 3>sure if your entire business is actually going to survive.
<v Speaker 2>You know, so, and you, I mean, I'm sure you're
<v Speaker 2>dealing with the same problem that I am, because you
<v Speaker 2>have your own website where now I mean, I've had
<v Speaker 2>to install age verification on my website and I have
<v Speaker 2>to pay for everybody who verifies their age.
<v Speaker 3>So I am trying to figure this out, and I
<v Speaker 3>don't know how, but there is a there's a sort
<v Speaker 3>of a do it yourself script that you have to
<v Speaker 3>install that you can install, but then.
<v Speaker 1>It's like free.
<v Speaker 3>So I'm working on that. Hopefully I can make that work.
<v Speaker 3>I also know that Free Speech Coalition just came out
<v Speaker 3>with an age verification tool that is very, very inexpensive.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know how inexpensive, but aliceson just told me
<v Speaker 3>about this, okay during expis Okay, so people are trying
<v Speaker 3>to make that more accessible. But yeah, so a lot
<v Speaker 3>of programming to in order to do all these things.
<v Speaker 1>And we could get into the age verification thing. That's
<v Speaker 1>a whole We've covered it quite a few times on
<v Speaker 1>this podcast. You can definitely find I'll say.
<v Speaker 3>One thing that sort of connects all of this regulation
<v Speaker 3>age verification to the cult. And I think that regulation
<v Speaker 3>is obviously like, you know, there's age g verification, but
<v Speaker 3>there's also then these books aren't allowed. You're not allowed
<v Speaker 3>to know about sex, Like really, that's what's going on, right,
<v Speaker 3>Like you're not allowed to know about gender stuff. You're
<v Speaker 3>not allowed to know about like LGBTQ stuff. You're only
<v Speaker 3>allowed to know about these few things that I give you,
<v Speaker 3>and then the parent is supposed to be in control
<v Speaker 3>of what that is, right, And I think the preventing
<v Speaker 3>the education puts children in a position that makes them
<v Speaker 3>really vulnerable, and it makes it like in the cult
<v Speaker 3>that I grew up in, where the leader and the
<v Speaker 3>grown ups could tell me what was okay and wasn't okay,
<v Speaker 3>and I had to believe them. It makes it just
<v Speaker 3>so much easier for predators to have access to children
<v Speaker 3>if you don't allow them to be educated about sex,
<v Speaker 3>about boundaries, about autonomy. And I feel like that it's
<v Speaker 3>very suspicious that the people that are doing this kind
<v Speaker 3>of legislations are often to be found out to have,
<v Speaker 3>you know, histories of things that they're legislating against. And
<v Speaker 3>now you're finding out that that's what they're doing uncovering,
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, I think it's harmful. I think it's dangerous
<v Speaker 3>and we need to examine what the real reason is
<v Speaker 3>because it's not to protect children. It is to make
<v Speaker 3>children more vulnerable to predators. That's what's happening, and it's
<v Speaker 3>not okay.
<v Speaker 1>We're talking about like sex education.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the lack of sex education, the forbidding of books
<v Speaker 3>about sex, the taking out of like anything that is
<v Speaker 3>you know, calling like you know, Project twenty twenty fives,
<v Speaker 3>like calling for librarians to be arrested. Basic right. That's
<v Speaker 3>telling me you don't want your children to have access
<v Speaker 3>to information because you want them to you want to
<v Speaker 3>control them. And that sounds like the cult that I
<v Speaker 3>grew up in. So like, I'm seeing that happening in
<v Speaker 3>our society now and it's dangerous.
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you so much on that, And I'm
<v Speaker 2>like really big on like sex, you know, And I'm
<v Speaker 2>in those early days of trying to navie navigate sex
<v Speaker 2>education with my daughter age appropriate education because she's five,
<v Speaker 2>but she's old enough to start answering questions.
<v Speaker 3>And that sort of brings the whole thing back to
<v Speaker 3>you know, pone literacy and sort of age verification where
<v Speaker 3>you're like, you, I don't want your children to know anything,
<v Speaker 3>and then you want to make it illegal for anybody
<v Speaker 3>to watch porn instead of just educating them about what,
<v Speaker 3>you know, everything is and then they can make informed
<v Speaker 3>decisions at the appropriate age. But in the end, I
<v Speaker 3>feel like people are just outsourcing their own misery. Like
<v Speaker 3>you're not having good sex, you're miserable, you want to
<v Speaker 3>do stuff you don't want other people to do the
<v Speaker 3>thing that you're not allowing yourself, so now everybody else
<v Speaker 3>needs to be miserable. That's really what I believe is
<v Speaker 3>that they're outsourcing their misery onto everybody.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, ultimately, like I definitely understand, and you know,
<v Speaker 2>as a mother, like I don't want and there's again
<v Speaker 2>to be clear, there's no one in the porn industry
<v Speaker 2>that wants children to watch porn, but you can't, like
<v Speaker 2>you know, take these extreme measures against that and take
<v Speaker 2>away education at the same time.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it does. That's insane.
<v Speaker 3>Well, it doesn't mean that we don't want age verification
<v Speaker 3>to happen, but it should be in a way that
<v Speaker 3>isn't sort of like prohibitive.
<v Speaker 5>Yes, you know, also there is parental controls. Can we
<v Speaker 5>just use that could please all parents prevent their children
<v Speaker 5>from watching porn on devices.
<v Speaker 1>The way that it's already possible.
<v Speaker 3>Right, we're not using any of the technology available, and
<v Speaker 3>we're not making parents responsible for the education or the
<v Speaker 3>sort of like how they want their children to interact
<v Speaker 3>with the sort of material at all.
<v Speaker 2>It also like like we're not going to get into age.
<v Speaker 2>But also like I mean, I think that you know
<v Speaker 2>a lot of people can agree with me, Like if
<v Speaker 2>there could be a way that we could make this
<v Speaker 2>happen at a device level, like said, sixteen year old phone,
<v Speaker 2>do you have to your age of your device in
<v Speaker 2>order to unlock everything?
<v Speaker 3>Then then you know, and then it's sort of like,
<v Speaker 3>you know, it's not like porn and like because obviously
<v Speaker 3>now we're trying to do edge of verification for social media,
<v Speaker 3>and I'm also not against that as a concept, right,
<v Speaker 3>all of the age of verification ideas, like I agree with,
<v Speaker 3>but let's do it in a way that that adults
<v Speaker 3>don't have to put their ID into the internet. Let's
<v Speaker 3>have like whatever wallets things somewhere on the device it
<v Speaker 3>knows the age, and then anything that is, you know,
<v Speaker 3>needs to be accessed. That is like porn or social
<v Speaker 3>media or I don't know, there's probably other stuff that I.
<v Speaker 1>Mean that's age.
<v Speaker 2>If you created an aide and across the board age
<v Speaker 2>verification gate that encompassed everything everything like you said, social media,
<v Speaker 2>but also I mean guns, gambling, gambling, like all this
<v Speaker 2>extreme violent material. There's so many buying alcohol, there's so
<v Speaker 2>many other things. If those were all in this age gating,
<v Speaker 2>that would be different because people would not be so
<v Speaker 2>afraid of like, oh, okay, I have to show my
<v Speaker 2>D to be over the HD eighteen to be able
<v Speaker 2>to unlock this area of the Internet, because I could
<v Speaker 2>be wanting to buy a gun, I could be wanting
<v Speaker 2>to gamble like all these other things. So I feel
<v Speaker 2>okay with that. It's it's the giving an ID to
<v Speaker 2>like an unknown entity, specifically for accessing porn, which so
<v Speaker 2>many people are so ashamed to admit that they want
<v Speaker 2>to watch.
<v Speaker 1>And word, are you going to end up on some
<v Speaker 1>porn lists?
<v Speaker 3>You know? The whole what was the Madison whatever, the yes,
<v Speaker 3>the cheating website, the cheating website, but then suddenly it
<v Speaker 3>was hacked and then there was a list of people
<v Speaker 3>are cheating now obviously we're worried that now there's going
<v Speaker 3>to be actual people Ashley Madison, there's like, you know,
<v Speaker 3>we're there's going to be a list of like people
<v Speaker 3>watching porn. Like I feel like this country obviously having lists,
<v Speaker 3>you know back in the day with communism, like the
<v Speaker 3>lists and then judging people for the things that they're
<v Speaker 3>doing in their own private home, you.
<v Speaker 1>Know, absolutely. Okay, Well, so I get ourselves and.
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for coming on. I'm so glad
<v Speaker 2>that we finally get to make this happen. Can you
<v Speaker 2>let everybody know where they can find you online?
<v Speaker 1>Please?
<v Speaker 3>It's www dot four playfilms dot com.
<v Speaker 1>And it's four play f O R E.
<v Speaker 2>It is actually without the E, but I oh right
<v Speaker 2>because it's four play.
<v Speaker 1>Like place four.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's a play on awards. But I do own
<v Speaker 3>both domains, so you're misspelling it.
<v Speaker 1>You will still good.
<v Speaker 3>And as long as you do not spell the number four,
<v Speaker 3>that's not that's not what we're doing here.
<v Speaker 2>So f O R P l A Y f I
<v Speaker 2>L M SKY. I mean I went to school, I
<v Speaker 2>not spell. And then what about Instagram?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, at four playfilms, like on every single channel.
<v Speaker 2>Perfect okay, and you guys of course can find me
<v Speaker 2>on Instagram and on x at Holly Randall. Go to
<v Speaker 2>Holly links dot com to access to all of my platforms.
<v Speaker 2>And of course we're going to do a little Patreon
<v Speaker 2>Q and A with INCA with the questions that you
<v Speaker 2>guys sent in, So we'll do that in a separate
<v Speaker 2>little segment we have a couple here. And then of
<v Speaker 2>course I want to give a big shout out and
<v Speaker 2>thank you again to my sponsors strip Chat.
<v Speaker 1>You guys are amazing.
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for supporting the podcast and helping
<v Speaker 2>me grow this year. This is going to be it's
<v Speaker 2>gonna be a great year. I think this is going
<v Speaker 2>to be the last interview in this studio as I'm
<v Speaker 2>moving to a bigger and better one.
<v Speaker 1>Dumb hole literally there.
<v Speaker 2>But I'm excited because I'm gonna you know what I'm
<v Speaker 2>excited about. I'm excited to have depth, to not have
<v Speaker 2>my chairs up against the wall so I can do
<v Speaker 2>a back Light twenty twenty six is bringing a backlight
<v Speaker 2>to Holler Randal and filtered.
<v Speaker 3>Fancy, fancy fancy. It's all about lighting.
<v Speaker 1>It's all about lighting. I did the best I could
<v Speaker 1>in this little space, but we're gonna we're gonna bring
<v Speaker 1>it up a notch for you guys. Thank you guys
<v Speaker 1>so much for watching. The next episode will actually.
<v Speaker 2>Be filmed at Strip Chat House, so that will be
<v Speaker 2>in a whole new environment that's gonna be a lot
<v Speaker 2>of fun. To make sure that you guys stay tuned
<v Speaker 2>for that and I'll see you there.
<v Speaker 1>Have a great one.