Inside ATLAS: Sara Alderweireldt explains how the CERN experiment homes in on new physics

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World weekly

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podcast.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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In this episode, we meet Sarah Alderweireld,

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who is a physicist working on the ATLAS

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experiment at CERN,

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the world famous physics lab that straddles the

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Swiss French border and is home to the

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Large Hadron Collider

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or LHC.

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The podcast

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explores

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how the huge ATLAS detector

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is used to study the high energy collisions

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of protons

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and sometimes

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lead ions

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at the LHC.

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In conversation with Physics World's Margaret Harris,

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Sarah explains how physicists deal with the vast

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amounts of information

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produced by ATLAS.

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Margaret and Sarah also chat about the ongoing

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high luminosity

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upgrade to the LHC

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and its experiments,

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which will be finished in 2030.

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And they also talk about the challenges and

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rewards

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of working on a very long term

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scientific project.

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Here's that conversation.

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My guest today is Sarah Aldoworlds,

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a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh in

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Scotland and a member of the ATLAS collaboration

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at CERN, the European particle physics laboratory.

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Hello, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast.

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Hello.

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Perhaps you could begin by telling our listeners

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what ATLAS does and what your role is

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within that.

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So ATLAS is a large detector

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at the Large Hadron Collider,

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which is built as a general purpose experiment.

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And we try to zoom in on interesting

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collision events that are happening when the LHC

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is on,

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in order to study both our understanding

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of the standard model of particle physics and

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look beyond it to see if we can

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find signs of new physics.

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And what's your role within that? Because ATLAS

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is a really big collaboration. It's got hundreds

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of physicists working on it. Absolutely. It's even

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thousands.

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I am in my current role as postdoc

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working on several analysis,

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mostly in the searches area.

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And I also work on the detector as

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a trigger expert,

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which deals with,

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the decision making life as the collisions are

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happening

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to decide which ones we record and which

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ones we give up on because we don't

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have the bandwidth to study everything.

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And then in parallel with those two hands

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on efforts, I'm also a coordinator

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for the Higgs multiboson

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and supersymmetry

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searches group, which is about a 500 sized

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subset of people that are all looking into,

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searches for new physics.

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Yeah. What does searches actually involve? You know,

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talk me through what happens when the collider

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is operating. You know, what's what's your your

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daily work look like?

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So when you imagine processes happening in nature,

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which are then also the ones that we

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can try to create with the the accelerator,

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you expect

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that certain processes happen

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more frequently than others. And we have a

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very good description of nature in the standard

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model, and so we have a prediction of

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how frequently we expect these things to happen.

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What the detector then does is testing

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whether if we look at the the collisions

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we're actually seeing and we analyze them, we

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identify them as a certain thing,

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whether this matches with the prediction we have.

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And in on one hand of the measurements,

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we have the very precise measurements of the

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standard model where you verify

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that you are getting

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things right with this prediction. And on the

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other hand of the word, there are the

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searches

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for things that lie beyond, because we have

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signs from, for example, astrophysics as well, that

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there are things in nature

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connected to dark matter or tensions in other

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areas,

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where there has to be a little bit

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more than we have in our standard mobile

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prediction.

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And then from small deviations in places or

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maybe

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tough to catch

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patterns in in the detector,

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there could be a hint that this has

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to have an explanation in new physics because

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if we only had the standard version, it

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wouldn't be there. Then what we do is

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on one hand, we optimize the detector to

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be as as thoroughly covering as possible in

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all of these potential signatures

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and then record the data. And then when

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we have the data, often these things happen

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in parallel on, like, the previous set while

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you work on the next one,

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you develop algorithms,

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classic ones, but also

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using modern techniques to

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zoom in on

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what is in this dataset. You put your

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prediction,

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we call this the background, and then you

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look at the the signatures that you could

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potentially see on top of this.

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And then we make the the statistical prediction

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of, how well these things agree. And as

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soon as you find something that doesn't agree,

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that's when it gets exciting.

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Now you talk about seeing and searches, but

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it's actually been a long time since people

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were literally seeing what's happened in a particle

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collider. You know, you had the cloud chamber

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days where you could see particle traces and

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collisions.

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What does it involve to, you know, sort

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of say, oh, that event is interesting. Let's

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let's look at that one. Let's save that

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event. How does that process work?

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This gets back to the the trigger work

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I was mentioning

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where,

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for the ATLAS detector, this happens in several

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phases. You have the level one system and

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the higher level trigger system, and then offline

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processing can continue a bit more even.

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And

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in the level one system, you use custom

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hardware because you have to take decisions ultra

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fast,

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and it's so fast that you don't even

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have time to read out all of the

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information that is in the detector. You just

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take crucial parts of it that help you

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in this decision making. You make a first

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decision.

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And then in the second step,

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say something was really energetic

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and it had

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two object flying in two different directions,

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and,

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that matches one of the things we're interested

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in. And you can zoom in on those

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blobs and look at the precision around them

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in this second layer of trigger algorithms which

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happens in

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software, and that then gives you the more

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precise decision, which can allow you to filter

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better again which events you really want to

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keep, and those then get passed on for,

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offline analysis.

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And in that same process,

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we also run the algorithms that try to

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identify

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the different elements of a collision that we

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know. So you can try to find the

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electrons, and you can try to find,

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the heavier particles, maybe the standard model bosons.

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And, actually, in connection to how in the

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past things happened with the bubble chamber and

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we actually looked at the snapshot,

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now in the software, we also have ways

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to visualize this. And we're talking about data

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analysis with

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numbers of events that is way too large

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to manually look at everyone

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individually.

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But if we're interested in a particular one,

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we can visualize it and bring this up

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and actually zoom into it and look at

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it as well.

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What are some of the specific events that

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you're you're looking for that you would get

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really excited if you saw?

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So personally, I'm a supersymmetry expert.

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And the idea of supersymmetry

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is that, if you take all of the

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standard model particles we know, there would be

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an a duplicate set of supersymmetric

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particles, and they all line up one to

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one with some

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parameter changes, of course. And this could then

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explain various open questions that we have, about

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how the world works.

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And

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because this is quite a well developed

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theory model, it also allows to to make

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predictions

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of what these signatures would look like, if

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they were there.

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And a lot of them go hand in

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hand with something we call missing

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transverse energy.

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Because when you have a collision in the

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detector or you you have a collision and

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you record it with a detector,

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energy that comes in also has to go

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out. And because our detector is constructed to

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be all covering or as much as possible,

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if you have things flying in two directions,

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those factors have to sum up.

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And if they don't, then something is missing,

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and this missing thing could be an invisible

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particle.

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And there are some particles in in the

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standard mobile version of the world where they

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are invisible, but they're usually

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not the dominant part of of processes.

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In the under standard model physics, you have

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many more particles that could be a lot

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heavier that might have interactions that aren't typically

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visible in our detector because they don't interact

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with materials in the same way, and they

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would leave much larger

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amounts of missing energy in our sums. And

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so we look for a lot of the

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searches, we look for signatures with lots of

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missing energy.

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Now regular listeners to the podcast may remember

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that this is kind of a transition period

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for CERN. We had CERN's next director general,

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Mark Thompson, on the podcast in January talking

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about plans for the lab's long term future.

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And then back at the March, I spoke

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about visiting CERN, and you were one of

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my tour guides on my visit, actually,

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and just learning about plans for the next

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upgrade of the the Large Hadron Collider.

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What's it like to work at CERN during

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this this sort of period of transition?

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This is an absolutely exciting time to be

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here because it's

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wonderful to be able to be not only

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in one aspect of high energy physics, which

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is already cool in itself, but actually

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three or even more parts. And when I

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say three, I'm thinking of, on one hand,

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we have data

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that has been recorded over the past ten

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ish years of LHC,

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and we can

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make analysis with it and learn more about

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physics.

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And then in a second element,

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we have plans for the next

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n years.

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It continues quite far, but let's start with

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the first part, the phase two upgrade for

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the high luminosity LHC.

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This will start happening quite soon with the

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long shutdown in which we turn things off

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and we make quite sizable upgrades to the

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detectors.

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This means that these detectors have been in

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design for

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a number of years already. And right now,

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we're actually starting to get the components that

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are the final ones and putting these together.

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Some examples, for example, are currently coming together

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in, like, the big development hall next to

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where the detector sits above ground.

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We get to work on those, test that

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it all comes together correctly. It works on

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the surface level.

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And then

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once these come together, they will go down

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to the detector,

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and then get put to use. That's the

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the actual hands on

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building the detector.

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And I said the upgrade continues very long.

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Even beyond this upgrade, we're thinking about the

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next ones already, and this then involves detector

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design and thinking about what technology will be

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available and how can we use it to

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to make the best possible detectors in future.

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And so these three phases really bring together

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all of the possibilities

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for

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research in physics.

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And

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it goes in cycles. And right now, it

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just happens to be one where you really

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get hands on connection to to all of

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the parts.

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What are the biggest challenges associated with these

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tasks, particularly with the upgrade?

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Timelines are always a a tricky thing, especially

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because they are so extended. And you need

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experts of many different types. Like, we need

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engineers. We need

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people who understand the physics to to connect

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with the engineers and say, like, okay. Yes.

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That is high techno high important technology, but

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it might not do exactly what it is

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00:12:28,595 --> 00:12:30,935
we are interested in zooming in and on.

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We also need students to be there to

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learn some of these things so that it

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can continue,

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later on. Then you need people who are

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in touch with outside who

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get

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to see how maybe data analysis algorithms

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or detector technology gets to evolve also in

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other places and keep feeding that into what

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we are doing right here.

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So it really brings together a a lot

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of people.

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And that's also one of the things that

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makes the CERN campus a very interesting place

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to be because it actually has good seeding

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00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,779
ground here to come together like that.

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You're an early career researcher. So, you know,

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maybe in contrast to some of the lab's

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00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,480
senior leadership, you're likely to be around not

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only for the HiLumie upgrade, but for whatever

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comes after that and even beyond, as you

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say, the next n years.

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What are your thoughts about that? Do you

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think that far ahead? You're just more head

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down, focused on the immediate task?

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00:13:27,065 --> 00:13:28,985
I think there are two parts to that.

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On one hand,

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also because nothing is ever guaranteed in this

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field,

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you do want to focus on the now

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and see what you can do now and

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and do the best you can.

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But on the other hand, I think if

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you stick around in in any research field

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for long enough,

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you start to see the bigger picture and

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you do want to be a part of

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00:13:49,684 --> 00:13:52,585
it, and you have the ideas of

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this might work better than that. I can

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00:13:55,445 --> 00:13:58,165
see how globally this evolves, what other people

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are interested in, And then it becomes a

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00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,120
puzzle of of bringing together and chipping in,

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00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:05,040
like, the little bits where I maybe am

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00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:05,700
the expert.

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And

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I would say

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I started thinking about the future already,

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00:14:12,154 --> 00:14:15,355
say, when becoming a postdoctoral researcher, so after

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00:14:15,355 --> 00:14:16,575
finishing the PhD.

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And

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we really are talking long time scales because

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if we talk past HLLHC,

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00:14:23,995 --> 00:14:26,254
I will be close to retirement age.

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00:14:26,909 --> 00:14:29,070
And that makes it then also connect with

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00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:32,509
teaching and and mentoring and supervising and and

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00:14:32,509 --> 00:14:34,690
making sure that the knowledge is spread

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00:14:35,149 --> 00:14:35,649
because

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00:14:37,549 --> 00:14:39,389
I can do what I can, and I

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00:14:39,389 --> 00:14:41,365
would love to continue doing it. But I'm

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00:14:41,365 --> 00:14:43,445
also very aware that we will need the

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00:14:43,445 --> 00:14:46,264
next people after that because fundamental research,

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00:14:47,285 --> 00:14:48,904
does not happen in ten seconds.

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00:14:49,764 --> 00:14:51,764
Because I guess also with the with just

385
00:14:51,764 --> 00:14:53,764
the process of building a detector, if you

386
00:14:53,764 --> 00:14:55,750
only do it every twenty years, that is

387
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:58,069
literally generation, and there's a risk that people

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00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:59,529
will forget how to do it.

389
00:15:00,949 --> 00:15:01,449
Absolutely.

390
00:15:02,389 --> 00:15:02,889
We

391
00:15:03,190 --> 00:15:05,750
see this even on on shorter time scales

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00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:08,389
as well where you you quite frequently hear,

393
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:09,129
but documentation

394
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:10,569
is very important.

395
00:15:11,875 --> 00:15:13,955
And then you find yourself in the control

396
00:15:13,955 --> 00:15:17,475
room with some tricky problem making everything fail.

397
00:15:17,475 --> 00:15:19,394
And you know, like, oh, I've seen this

398
00:15:19,394 --> 00:15:22,034
error before, but why is it doing this

399
00:15:22,034 --> 00:15:22,774
right now?

400
00:15:23,230 --> 00:15:25,309
And you you look at it for half

401
00:15:25,309 --> 00:15:27,470
an hour, an hour, and you're still scratching

402
00:15:27,470 --> 00:15:29,549
your head after going out for a quick

403
00:15:29,549 --> 00:15:30,049
lunch.

404
00:15:30,590 --> 00:15:31,809
And at some point,

405
00:15:32,350 --> 00:15:34,990
some colleague that hasn't been near there in

406
00:15:34,990 --> 00:15:38,085
in in years walks past, asks you what

407
00:15:38,085 --> 00:15:39,845
you're doing, and you tell them and it's

408
00:15:39,845 --> 00:15:40,345
like,

409
00:15:41,125 --> 00:15:42,745
maybe you want to check this.

410
00:15:44,004 --> 00:15:46,504
Lo and behold, this is always the solution.

411
00:15:48,565 --> 00:15:51,625
So, yeah, we do need long term experts,

412
00:15:52,049 --> 00:15:54,129
but also people who are just keen on

413
00:15:54,129 --> 00:15:57,429
on digging into finicky issues and being creative

414
00:15:57,490 --> 00:15:58,389
with the solutions.

415
00:15:59,250 --> 00:16:00,769
Thank you very much for speaking to us,

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00:16:00,769 --> 00:16:02,370
Sarah. Thank you. It's been great to talk

417
00:16:02,370 --> 00:16:03,029
to you.

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00:16:03,409 --> 00:16:05,429
Likewise. Thanks for inviting me.

419
00:16:13,215 --> 00:16:14,754
That was Sarah Alderweireld

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00:16:15,134 --> 00:16:18,495
of the University of Edinburgh in conversation with

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00:16:18,495 --> 00:16:20,434
Physics World's Margaret Harris.

422
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,019
We're more than halfway through 2025,

423
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,960
which has been declared the International Year of

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00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,740
Quantum Science and Technology

425
00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:30,740
by the UN agency

426
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:31,700
UNESCO.

427
00:16:32,559 --> 00:16:34,100
As part of our celebrations

428
00:16:34,399 --> 00:16:37,795
here at Physics World, we've published a 62

429
00:16:37,795 --> 00:16:39,335
page quantum briefing.

430
00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:42,674
The cover of the briefing features a painting

431
00:16:42,674 --> 00:16:46,375
by the physicist turned artist, Felicity Inkpen.

432
00:16:47,154 --> 00:16:49,095
That work is called Qubit's

433
00:16:49,409 --> 00:16:49,909
Duality.

434
00:16:50,450 --> 00:16:52,929
And in a recent episode of the Physics

435
00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:54,389
World Stories podcast,

436
00:16:54,929 --> 00:16:59,089
Felicity shares her journey from academic physics to

437
00:16:59,089 --> 00:17:00,070
the art world,

438
00:17:00,529 --> 00:17:03,110
and talks about the creative process

439
00:17:03,464 --> 00:17:06,924
as she explores the elusive nature of quantum

440
00:17:06,984 --> 00:17:07,484
reality.

441
00:17:08,424 --> 00:17:09,804
Also in that podcast,

442
00:17:10,184 --> 00:17:12,125
Physics World's Tushna Kamasariat

443
00:17:12,825 --> 00:17:15,724
talks about a feature article in the Quantum

444
00:17:15,785 --> 00:17:19,880
Briefing that's called the curious case of quantum

445
00:17:20,179 --> 00:17:21,240
Cheshire cats.

446
00:17:21,779 --> 00:17:23,880
It explores the strange phenomenon

447
00:17:24,419 --> 00:17:25,799
whereby a particle's

448
00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:26,599
properties

449
00:17:27,059 --> 00:17:29,380
seem to be in a different place from

450
00:17:29,380 --> 00:17:30,679
the particle itself,

451
00:17:31,460 --> 00:17:31,960
reminiscent

452
00:17:32,259 --> 00:17:33,399
of Lewis Carroll's

453
00:17:33,914 --> 00:17:34,975
famous feline

454
00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:36,975
in Alice in Wonderland,

455
00:17:37,755 --> 00:17:38,654
whose grin

456
00:17:39,035 --> 00:17:39,535
lingers

457
00:17:39,914 --> 00:17:41,535
even after it's gone.

458
00:17:42,154 --> 00:17:45,134
That episode of the stories podcast is called

459
00:17:45,275 --> 00:17:46,654
painting the unseen,

460
00:17:47,559 --> 00:17:48,059
visualizing

461
00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:51,240
the quantum world. And you can find it

462
00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,519
on the physics world website or at your

463
00:17:54,519 --> 00:17:56,299
favorite podcast provider.

464
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,900
And you can read the entire quantum briefing

465
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:01,340
on our website.

466
00:18:02,134 --> 00:18:02,634
Just

467
00:18:03,174 --> 00:18:04,954
click on the magazine tab.

468
00:18:05,494 --> 00:18:07,414
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

469
00:18:07,414 --> 00:18:10,214
for this week's podcast. Thanks to Sarah and

470
00:18:10,214 --> 00:18:11,595
Margaret for a fascinating

471
00:18:11,974 --> 00:18:12,474
conversation,

472
00:18:12,934 --> 00:18:15,494
and a special thanks to our producer, Fred

473
00:18:15,494 --> 00:18:15,994
Isles.

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00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:19,059
We'll be back again next week. See you

475
00:18:19,059 --> 00:18:19,559
then.