After the Final Rose with Gabby and Rachel

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Speaker 1: What's about your Happy Hour? It's one of your hosts back with Cooper in here and I just left after the final rows and what a while night. It was honestly the craziest finale I honestly have ever seen. There is so much to impact from it, and Michelle needed a little breather. So there's a lot to talk about from tonight's show, and we'll definitely come back to all of that later. But before the show, Michelle and I actually sat down with our girls, Gabby and Rachel, and here is that conversation. Gabby and Rachel, Welcome back to Happy Hour. We're so excited to have you here. And for all of our listeners, I have to preface this with we have the girls before the actual life finale, So this is but do you guys still look like phenomenal Sonny? Thank you? Yeah? This is before as in, just get that champagne flowing. How are you feeling going into this evening? That's a loaded question. Um god, I think who knows? Not? I mean, yeah, not great? Yeah, I would actually second, I have mixed emotions. Yeah, definitely. I think. Yeah, it's gonna be hard, but hopefully there's some silver lining in the finale for both. Definitely what that's gonna be. Yeah, you're a single woman, get in Rachel's DMS. Yes, you can say that, everybody. We're totally taking applications for the show. We're taking applications for Rachel too, So I'd like to say this is our official campaign for Rachel to be Bachelorette season. Wait, do you want to do this again? No, you wouldn't say no, you were just do it yourself. Yeah, I'm gonna do it again in my DMS. I love this. We can be like the Patty Stayers and be the matchmakers. He'll bet everyone through you, guys, So we'll send you all the matches, okay, and then we can eliminate them one by one as if it was like a real season. Via Instagram for face, solely on your looks and if you don't have an Actually, I want to date someone who doesn't have an Instagram. I dig that. You know someone who's just fifty followers absolutely lives a normal life. No, somebody who doesn't even have Instagram? Yeah right, and take it back to MySpace. They can only have a MySpace and that's it, all right, one of those either, okay, Well, let's just actually start for real here. Cheers to you both for finding the best friendship and for expanding that because I feel like, no, we can finally have our girls sights together, Finally we can finally touch shit all the ship and maybe we'll have you on again tomorrow to talk even more shit. Yeah, we could go through days. Yeah, you really like my Stero. It feeds me. It is my human growth hormone makes me strong. Before we get into everything, we really could talk to you guys forever. But before we get into the details and everything, we are going to start off on a fairly positive note because Gabby, Dancing with the Stars you did absolutely wonderful. But you are a girl here in the audience. How was that? Well, first I want to know, like, how was it before you step on stage your first dance? And then Rachel? How was it watching her? Honestly seeing Rachel because she was right next to me when I came out on stage and we were able to like kind of connect and like almost talk to each other. It was like so grounding because I was like, this is real life. That's one of my best friends. I can be myself, Like that's all I need. So I was honestly the best thing I could have asked for. Like, in that moment before kicking my legs off in my face, I was acting like a fairal wild animal. Like some point I'm like, I should probably stop screaming because she's never going to invite me back to It was so much fun because right when she got in her swan in the beginning, she was like twerking, We're just looking at each other and it felt like, how are we back? Right? Yeah? Yeah? It was the best. Have you met Val heard? And I think Jenna. They're both incredible people. I think they're gonna do so amazing this season. She has so much support behind her. And yeah, I mean I see the mirrorball in our future. Well yeah, I say I have a part of hour, Like the mirrorball is going to go in your apartments. We're going to listen on your dating profile. Yeah yeah, she's have to be the profile picture. So I want to ask you, Gabby, how different is filming and doing the show and press prettyc with the stars versus doing the bad short, because I can imagine it's vastly different, so different, Yeah, and our interviews and stuff. I'm ready to elaborate to like connect to an emotional experience, and they're like, tell me what your song is, and I'm like, that's all you want to talk about, But tell me why it makes you feel the way it does. Yeah. Yeah, But it's also kind of a relief because I feel like, not I've exhausted my emotions, but I've really worked up that part of me, like the vulnerable emotional side. So now it's nice to just have a break, to have people see me in a different light. But there is still a lot of overlap, like putting yourself out there on that stage is vulnerable. You have to lean in too, like I could make a mistake. You know, I'm not perfect and somebody is seeing this very intimate side of me that you know, I'm like pretty good at but not great. Yeah. Yeah, you were a cheerleader too, right, so like you, how is it different? How is the same, like remembering all the different movements. Yeah. I think by the end of my cheerleading career, I was like, you know, I got this. I have the style down, I know how to perform. I'm comfortable with this role. So I thought I would feel that going into dancing, But I'm a novice. You know, I feel like I'm in dance class for the first time. It's like definitely a hit to the ego, but in the best way, because I think we all need reminders that there are other things out there that we can work for and live for. And as adults, you want to do things, try things that are new, because that's like all part of life. So I think having that right in front of my face is a blessing. How are the dogs feeling, God, they're bargain can I yes? Oh, I'm sure they're pretty blisters are yes, I'm never in flats and like I've adopted so many slides in flats because the balls and the balls of the dogs, and yeah, okay, they're not numb. They're not numb, but I wish they were. Let's actually ask let's start on a high note, and then we'll of course get into some of the drama that we will see tonight. But overall, you guys have traveled all over the world. You've obviously been able to do it as best friends, which I am so jealous of. What would you say was the highlight of both of your journeys? I think going off that is honestly just our friendship. And I think now looking back and going through everything airing and watching it back together, our friendship and our support system is that much more important. But I think just going through the journey with another person was the best thing that I could have asked for and really made my experience. Yeah, And I think people like all the time want to say like, oh, you know this is all for the show, where it's all this, and I'm like, if you're with us for ten seconds, you can very clearly see like the support we've had since day one. We never wavered. We always put each other first, And I mean, looking at where I am now, I mean like, if I came out of this and truly didn't have Gabby, I don't know how I would have gotten through it. And with you guys as well. I do want to thank you because you both have been there for me and it's amazing that we do have this like support system as bachelorettes. But I think we can all agree that this is kind of the real love story that you're absolutely for sure it's always going to be there. I do too. I really hope you guys know that just even like after this whole experience, it's such a wild one, but you truly are not, I mean, regardless of what happens, you truly are not leaving empty handed whatsoever. And there's just it's so easy to just compare and you know, well, we didn't get to do this or I wanted this out of it, you know, like, but like you truly are not leaving empty handed. And there's so many just different things that you are going to be prepared for. That you are going to keep your eye out for that, you know that. And just like the different like bonds that you make is just something that like people don't actually understand because do you run into people They're like, is it act? Like do you actually like go through these emotions? I think it's acting. That's something like people still don't understand that. It's yes, it's a show, but it's still you saying everything, feeling everything, like trying to fall in love and trying to navigate Yeah, like seventy four thousand different relationships. It's like, yes, it's real. And to add on to what Michelle just said too, is like you aren't leaving empty handed. You'll have I mean, so many opportunities will come from this. Obviously the stars, but like even bigger things, and I know that the seasons probably didn't pan out like you thought and how you expected, and they went wigh off course, and right now, like just speaking from my own experience, I know it probably sucks, but it is the best thing that could have probably ever happened. Yeah, just to have everything pan out in the way it did, it's got to be difficult, but like you will look back in a month or a year and be like, thank god it did though, thank God, Like, yeah, I think there's still a little bit of that even right now. I feel like big things like this you can't process in the moment. You have to reflect on. But yeah, even going back to like Rachel and I like our friendship is going to last forever. It's so strong and you can't always say that about relationships. So I'll always take a best friend over a man. Hell any day, let's make that our quote of the week, everybody, absolutely. Um. I also want to say, before I forget, because I said it last night to Rachel's mom, where was my invite to Disney World, to Disneyland? Yeah? Did you not go? When you were about Staurutte? No, I did not with you guys, he didn't come with us. I know, I didn't get to go because it was COVID. I could go walk around my myself, you know, yea by myself, you know, because I never got that. Yeah, did you get like the back ground find the scenes? Ante is not single? Just to let you know, not single. She's good question. But we thought he was iron Man. Yeah, he's taken. He's married to another insect. So sorry, Michelle, you're above that. She's like, I've already been there, done that. Yeah, yeah, buzz But so okay, so we're we're getting off and they're gonna kill us. But sorry to switch gears just even more to more of a serious note, just because it is, you know, the things that we have to talk about, right um or that I want to give you guys time for you to talk about as well and address. But you know, coming into this experience, you really you know that there's gonna be a lot, you know that there's gonna be unexpected things. But there's sometimes where you can't think just how unexpected, Like any of the things that have really taken you know, account during the season are not anything that you could even really like sit and think up right, and so one of those things, Gabby with you is just even like the controversy, that controversy that's taken place and that has caught you f Guarden has put you in a position to really, you know, have to process that and to deal with that and acknowledge that, and so you know everything that it was and is going on with Eric and you know, the black face and these issues that are sadly not the first time that Bachelor Nation has dealt with something like this. Yeah, what are your you know, what are your thoughts? What is going through your mind during these moments that this is starting to process. I want to add on to that, like what was going through your mind when that was first brought to light? And then you know, fast forward to now, like how have you been able to process that? And like what are you thinking about all that now? Yeah? I think at first, you know, I was devastated. I had a pit in my stomach. I couldn't really believe it because I think I've worked so hard to educate myself and to become the woman I am today, which comes from wanting to push yourself, wanting to learn, taking that upon yourself to really grow because unfortunately you're not always taught these things when you're growing up. So when it was right in front of my face, when I know myself, hopefully I would never put myself in that position intentionally, like I know who I am, but I am with a man who did this, so then that's a reflection of me. So it took me a long time to process. And you know, Eric did write an apology, which was what he was supposed to do, you know, at the very least. But I feel like I'm still processing. But ultimately I made a decision to be with him, and now it's our problem. So now it's my turn to really teach him and try and enforce how important it is to me, and really try and help him learn from the root of why this is an issue. Not like what you did was bad, but let's go back to where it came from and how we can learn from it. It's not every position that I would want to be in, but if I have a chance to help someone grow, you know, I almost think like maybe it is meant to be, because you know, social issues, even being a woman is being a minority in some sense. It's it's very different, but we really come into ourselves have to stick up for ourselves kind of understand where that came from. So for me to be able to teach someone else who's willing to listen is the only place I can go from here. That's actually a good point that you bring up that I am curious about, because I was in a very similar situation after coming off of my season with the person I chose, And at that moment in time, I mean, I was kind of like you very taken aback. It's like you have this pit in your stomach and you don't necessarily know where to turn. I like, you was allowing this person and thinking and hoping that I would give them the space and the time and the means and the education to grow and learn and change. You know, That's what I was hearing, And ultimately, like in my situation, that didn't end up being the case. And you know, I learned two and a half years down the road that you know, were the words and actions weren't lining up. And so do you think Eric is in a place where he is genuinely open to changing and growing or is he kind of just at a place where he's saying that now to appease the public eye. Definitely. No, that's a great question. And truthfully, I don't know, because we're not We're still in it, you know, we don't have time to move past it, because it's it all happened so recently. But I do think that he's in a place where he wants to change and wants to grow. And we talk about social issues so much because it's something that I myself, you know, hold important. So he knows, even before all this happened, that I have opinions that I'm going to push him, so he knows, being with me, it comes with the territory. We have to be able to talk about these things. I never knew he was going to be the subject, but I feel like I kind of primed him for this, and I do hope and I think he's in a place in his life where he can really reflect and look back and become better. And it's so hard. It's like, how is our society still dealing with this stuff? But it is. It's still right in front of our nose, and unfortunately this was a huge reminder that it's you know, we have so much work to do, and I hope that he's willing to put in the work and kind of become, you know, an example for his community. Like if people look up to him as being a white man who has experienced privilege, but he admits his wrong and wants to change and grow, maybe he can be kind of a person that other people like him can learn from because they can relate to him. Do you think he's and again, it's still early on you or in the midst of all of this, so only Tim will tell, But do you think he's the type of person that will actually be having those conversations with his friends, with his family, with people in the community. I hope so. And I think even just you know what happened in the discussion around the show and friendships that he's built, He's talked a lot about it, you know, and I think it's most important in this circumstance to not be defensive and be open and willing to hear the other perspective, because you know, that is his position. Our position at this time is just listen and to learn and not to put up a defense. And I feel like he's he's shown that and is taking steps towards that. I think it's just I mean, I do, I really do feel for you, Gabby, just with you know, there's not a lot of time to really realistically get to know somebody right like you you you you feel like you talk about the important things and use your time to talk about and plan for those important things, and then there's other things, you know, that come forward. I think what's just so difficult, especially being a woman of color in my position in a very very white world's call it what it is, white franchise, And I think it's difficult because we're here again, and you know, we we did go through this with Matt season, right, we went through all these other things, and it's really easy to put in the work now because it's what makes you more comfortable, makes you you know, allows you to put your energy and focus in that direction to change that thing, as people are kind of, you know, really putting the pressure on you to change. I think my biggest thing is that what I really want to see from Eric is that when this passes, because it comes in waves and then it disappears. When it passes, will you still find the time to seek out information? And that's my biggest piece is the fact that it is great to bring awareness and it is great to like, you know, you have you have all these big events and things happen, but people like me sit back and you know, a month down the road, when it's not the talk and it's not in the tabloid's, are you still setting side time because life's busy right, It's it's easy to make time for it now, because that's what the issue is, that's what the focus is. But I really really hope to see Eric make time for this and for others in his same situation to make time for this, and for you to challenge him and us as the same you know, you really never learning, but to make time to seek out knowledge and to kind of peel back those biases, that privilege, like those layers of all of that. A month down the road when this is not the focus. Yeah, and thank you, because you know, I want to ask your advice and how you feel, because I do still want to learn and kind of be better, and I think with myself just with any free time I have, I want to make myself better in these scenarios and be able to speak from a place of knowledge and confidence because I'm not always going to be able to speak from experience, and I have made it such a big part of my life that naturally, someone who's this close to me as you're you know, other, he would be around it and exposed to it because it is something that I always want to do, that I take pride in. That really is something that yeah, I just want to do better for myself, and naturally you have those conversations with the person who's by your side. So and and honestly I felt the same way. You know, I was talking about it with some other people and they were like, yeah, well it's kind of blown over, and I'm like, that is a problem. You know, that is still a reflection of our society, and it brings us back to the initial kind of offense is that you know, it does blow over so fast, but that that isn't a good thing. That shows us, you know, right, like why we are still in this position today. So thank you, no, and well we'll definitely do more talking as well. And it's just please you very much. Are seem like you have your head, you know, in in the right spot and and yeah, there's a lot going on and we could talk about this piece. I mean, it's a really serious talking, but we are going to continue to move on. Rachel's like take a big drink um. And I do appreciate you being so open because I know that's not that's not easy as well, but you speaking up and yeah, and where you stand and setting that firm um no. And thank you for being honestly so like almost non judgmental and this and being able to teach us and for people who are willing to learn. Yeah, and I wouldn't. Yeah, judgmental is not judging, you know, it's just it's sense of urgency. I think it is probably the best way I can put it, is that there needs to be a sense of urgency. You know, it's it change. It takes a long time. Um, but with this, it's just especially coming from like a teaching background, you know, and all of that. And you know, people can say, well that was however many years ago and all those different things, and to kind of even like put it in perspective, it's like when this event took place, unfortunately, um, you know Obama was in office when this took place. You know, I could pluck out a first grader from my school and they would very well know that that's not something you know, and and it just definitely needs to be an understanding and like that knowledge at a really young age. And I do see that, you know and m and just playing off of that, like this shows about love, about ultimately finding a partner who you're gonna get engaged, to get married, to spend your life with. And so I think something that at least I'm sure for all of us have thought about it, and if that's the case, is like, how are we going to raise our kids eventually if that's something that you want down the line, Like you really have to be aligned in your morals and values, and that's something that we've all learned, like from past relationships, like you were probably aligned with some of your exes and you probably were not aligned with some of them. And so I think that's what's important, is that now you can have more of those deep conversations projecting forward into the future too, to make sure your entire family is on the same page. And again, I don't know if children is something that you want in the future or not, And if that is, it's just a conversation and this is a part of that conversation. Yeah, but yeah, but uh yeah, like Michelle said it on to you, Rachel, Yeah, so all around, just such difficult, so many large just intense situations. I don't even maybe it's like we know we want happy endings, we also know that that doesn't always happen, and so breakups. I'm recently going through breakup in the public eye. You know, Rachel, you are right in the heart of it. You are right in the middle of it. It's not something that you expected, you know, especially when you're like I'm doing the work. You know, you're the bad story. It's your turn to find love, and you know, things happen, and this is a very difficult thing that you're going through, specifically Rachel as well and one Beck and I admire and feel for you with what you're going through because this is absolutely but your strength, I will say, like the strength and the poise that you have, and just the fact that you continue to show up and the fact that you're like still sitting down here to do this podcast to talk with us about it, and you know you have to go on stage and talk about it, like that's not an easy feat. It's like, I'm sure you're dreading it. I can imagine I've been in your shoes, But you are poised. You are still patient and kind and willing to kind of get through this hardship in this moment of your life, and I think after having some conversations with you, is like you see the light at the end of the tunnel, and I just have to commend you for still showing up and being here and supporting Gabby and you know, sharing the rest of your story in this little chapter of life like it's hard, but your strength is so admirable. It really is. I mean, I appreciate it. Thank you obviously, and Michelle again, we kind of are in the same boat. So it is amazing to have you and to be able to bounce everything off you because this isn't easy and obviously it's not the outcome. I mean, Gabby and I have been doing this for a year straight this week and literally this week, and to go through what everything we went through, I know, it's just crazy because you go through so much on the bachelor's side, and then to get in this role of being the bachelorette knowing that you know we both want commitment. We've said that from day one, and again I feel like we've never wavered from just wanting someone who wanted to love us and be with us and stand next to us. And that's all we've ever asked for. And I think there even has been a lot of controversy recently with maybe the way the show is laid out, and is that still right to this day? And I think me and Hurt, I mean, we've talked about it at length. We're women and we know what we want, and we came into this process knowing that we wanted someone to commit to us and to be you know, going through this process and putting in the work after, and we all know how hard that is. After it's the hardest part. And to not even be able to get through that, not even halfway through the show and already be standing in this spot I was at our last after the final rose. It's difficult, but like you guys all said in the beginning, it's just kind of what was supposed to happen, and it probably at the end of the day is a blessing that I know now instead of a year down the road. So you bring up such a good point about just the commitment. Just I think in society. It's society is very materialistic, right right, capitalist absolutely, which is not always whatever the worst thing. But I really do think people fixated on both of you for the word engagement, And I want to take a minute to point out what you just said, because you said commitment, like I want somebody who believes in me. I want somebody who's going to put in the work after. And so you using the words engagement on the show, correct me if I was wrong. When you were going through that whole process, when you were saying the word engagement, you were literally speaking to I want the engagement because I want someone who is going to put in the work after, who is going to lowly regardless, who is going to be loyal and respectful in it, which the audience vast donation is like, oh, they just want the ring. No, No, it's like you have to read between the lines, like you truly have not feel like you haven't been chosen. And when you are saying I want the engagement, it's because you want someone to verbally commit to you. And in today's society, that's an engagement, right, That's what I thought or kind of tried to express the whole time. It's like, I don't just want a ring, It's it's a symbol of a commitment. And for me, I've I've been you know, I've dated all of them and I've never been in a point in my life where I'm ready to stay with all of them. But that's what an engagement meant to me. It's like someone who's who's done the work in their lives, who's at a place in their life where they're ready to commit to someone forever. So they do think timing is a lot, and you have to work on yourself. You have to you know, have everything in place for you to make somebody else your priority. So when people are you know, kind of the feedback from the audience saying we fixate too much on an engagement, it's like, I understand if you're only thinking about surface level stuff, but if a big picture that's why we're here is because we believe in the process, because there would truly be no stakes if I went in thinking like, wow, I'll just get a boyfriend. Like if I wanted a boyfriend, then I would have walked away with like four or five of them. Yeah, but I just want one. And it's not just because like I am materialistic, or because I want a ring, or because I think it's you know, kind of um like buzzwords or click bait for the show. It's like that's the easiest way to define on you know, what we committed to, which is being the bachelorettes. It's like the most kind of definitive way to explain to everybody else where I'm at in my life, which is ready to be engaged, to be married, and you're ready for that, and more so you are you're ready for that, and you are looking to see who else is ready for that? Right well, that's like the whole going through this entire season, any anyone's season, it's like to weed out who is ready and who's not ready, like who is It is half the battle, yea more than half the battle, right we know this. But I think when they see us say I want engagement, they're like, oh, well you want you know, the Neil Lane ring. And while it's beautiful, I'm sitting here like yeah, yeah, yeah, it's amazing. It's beautiful. But that's not why me and Gabby are here. We're here because we want someone to stand next to us through these difficult times and for someone to be supportive. And if if at the end of the day, Tino got down on when he was like, you know, I can't give you this ring, but I want to commit to you for the rest of my life. I want to be with you. That's all I was looking for. And I mean, I think also going along with that same conversation, looking into watching myself the last week with Avan, and that is what he was telling me. But at the time, I mean, there was so much confusion and there was so much happening, and I could watch my own walls go up, and I could see me thinking he was pulling away, and I think there's just so many things going I was kind to win up with him to watching it back because for me, it seems like he's like, I am ready to get engaged, but I want to make sure the timing is right. It's like, understand that now looking back, I think there's so many things you can watch back and understand. I also think it was confusing because it's like it was, Yeah, if timing isn't right, then that means maybe you're not ready, like and maybe he didn't know the words to explain himself. But I think you have a right to be confused. I think also there's so many different layers and it's like every like humans, we we behavior, we actively move forward based on our experiences. You had a very tough, um like go of it with you know, you had these men that were just all of a sudden trying to you know, switch around or us right, both of you guys did or or you know, I'm like backing out all of a sudden, So how would you not be on the defense, Like even we don't take it back to even it wasn't the first person exactly, it's like that those are part of your experiences. So like as somebody who's watching, you know, like when people are I don't know why, but like I dislike when people are, oh, this person's crying too much? Like can we just clarify that crying is not a weakness, like if you have anxiety, it's my favorite hobby. If seriously, Rachel, like I love how you've just you made like a TikTok or something about like joking and making fun of yourself. But like to clarify, crying is not a weakness. Okay, so crying's not a weakness. Showing emotions not a weakness. Anxiety depression is not a weakness. Now, like do you know who needs to listen to this five second part is somebody's father? Oh? Yes, Crying is not a weakness. In fact, I think it's a strength because you're you're not trying to hide it. You're like, I'm trying to be my realist self and I'm gonna cry. You're not process through everything, and you can't get to like the next step that you should be at in a situation or your life if you're not like working through all those emotions and feelings exactly. I think it's I think it's cowardly and I think it's a weakness when you when you let it stop you from showing up and you've continued to show up, So regardless of what emotions you show, you've never failed to show up. We've had people failed to show up at mental Oh, we've had people failed to show up, right, Like, let's not point to crying as a weakness. That's not a weakness here, that's just I agree, And I think people forget like we we do have multiple relationships at this point, like in the game, and they're compartmentalized. So one breakup is going to hurt because you're losing someone no matter who's on the other side of things, no matter how many people you have left. I'm mourning this relationship. We're like no, because that's how real it is. Yeah, and that's what you have to do to be successful, I think as the bachelor bachelor at Okay, So, Rachel, I want to give the might to you for a little bit because to night viewers are going to see a lot and we all know how social media works, and everything's going to be swirling around and people are going to make their own assumptions and everything. So I want to give you some time to just talk through your situation where you're at, like when you were going through that breakup, where you're at now, like cleared the air. I don't want you to feel like you're leaving here with anything left unsaid. Yeah, And I mean I talked to both Gabby and Michelle so much about this already, and I just want to obviously start by saying I'm not perfect. I was not perfect when I left here with Tino. I mean we all go through that struggle. I think when you leave the show and you have those natural just growing pains in a relationship of being long distance and having to communicate on the phone, and it's a struggle when you get into any relationship at the beginning, especially when your entire relationship is filmed. Now you're just in the real world, and exactly so, I'm there's so much and I'm not sitting here and saying he is completely at fault for the lack of communication we had in the beginning. It was all just both of us. And when I left here, I was so happy, I mean beyond happy, and things started to obviously go a little bit south, and we both needed to work on a relationship. And I think what the difference is with him and I is that I never wavered from committing and waking up every day and working towards this commitment with him, in this life with him, So I could sit here today with Jesse Palmer and be like, I'm engaged and I've worked a whole year to get myself to a point to be in this position where I can finally be happy. And it's just really hard when one person can just break so easily at the first sign of a weakness in the relationship. And I mean, there's just so many things happening. And I think he has his own story, and obviously he has the right to tell that, but Gabby knows, my family knows. You guys know, there was never a point where we were broken up. There was never a point where an engagement was called off. Did we have conversation saying, you know, we need to focus on dating, we need to like really get to the core of this. Yes, was there a moment or conversations and like that's healthy conversations. You guys are being real correct, And that's where I hope you understand, Rachel. Is the fact or like just anybody watching, is the fact that when things are difficult in a relationship and you're talking about going back to dating, my parents talk about dating, going back to dating all the time, Like, let's make sure you never stopped dating the person you spend doing it life with, right, And it's so natural in this scenario, like everything is so sped up, Like, yes, you leave engaged, you know you have the ring on your finger now, but you still have to take that time to date and to get to know one another and see how your lives mesh and see how you can mold into each other's lives in the best way possible. So anyone leaving the show is going back and it's kind of like you're reverting to that boyfriend girlfriend phase in some way, because that's you have to every one of us did it right. It's not different, and I think that's maybe I can only just try to get on his side and assume that's where confusion was coming from, because we were struggling, and I don't think there's an excuse. I'm not making excuses, but I don't want to sit here and for everyone to tell me that, like, well, you said this and I didn't. I never said I was giving a ring back. I never said our engagement was called off. But he was upset that we were in a bad place, and instead of sitting there and doing the work like I did and taking that space for myself and seeking help and focusing on this, he ran straight to someone that he was apparently not seeing but seeing before the job in some capacity before. Yeah, and that's where the struggle is, and then not only that, keeping it from me for weeks. This was around the time of the premiere, and we're talking mental all. Is when I when I found out that long he sat on this information, sat in front of me and told me I need to do all this work on myself for our relationship together, which I agree and he did too. We're not perfect, but you're sitting on this information that you are actively seeking comfort and intimacy with another person and then and then trying to turn it on me when you finally reveal it to me, which wasn't an act of courage, and that I need to tell you this. It was pulling on a string enough that it finally came out, and when it did, it wasn't I needed to tell you this. It was I wish I never told you this, and please don't tell anyone. And that's right. I think always like with with relationship, ships and struggle and conversations and controversy, it's like your character that shines through. It wasn't actually about like I'm da the action, but like if you were like a good partner and you wanted to fight for this person, your first instinct wouldn't have been to run. So that's like his character coming through. But also he would apologize, like still up to this point, you would you know, like if this really happens. Even watching the breakup, he like never genuinely apologize or checked on you how are you doing? Like how can I support you? It was my me what I'm going to say because I've dated them in the past, a very narcissistic move I think we all have, but like where it was, he first kind of deflects and tries to push it off on you, make you feel guilty of like, oh, well I did this because of X y Z, which doesn't you're an excuse the behavior whatsoever. But then he comes back and it's just like, I want to make this work. Let's make this work. We can do this. Do you want to do this? I'm like, that's not even a fair position to put you When you say no, it's that you don't want to work on this when it's not actually going to the root of what caused this divide exactly exactly. He didn't take any accountability at all. And over and over and over again, he's like, well, is this gonna work? Is this gonna work? I'm leaving. If it's not gonna work, just break up with me, answers, because Gabby knows every single time he tells the story, something changes, a detail changes. First it's a kiss had a party, and then it's a kiss in an uber on the way to her house where his car is parked, Like where is the story connecting? So when you're lying, you can't get your story straight. And that's why He's getting up multiple times and trying to figure this out and then coming back and putting it on me. Well, is this going to work? Because then I'm leaving. Well even him, know, You're mean changed like conversation by conversations, we're talking to three different men or from yea he was a fall and he'd be like, Okay, I could be better this. Yeah, yeah, it's like he And I'm going to say this because I've been in a very similar situation and there were things in my relationship that started on The Bachelor that I didn't know about until later on, like once the breakup had already happened. But regardless of if you are taking some space to process an argument or a fight, there should be no other person involved at that point. And he was engaged to you. Whether he wants to admit that or not, he wasn't engaged. Admitted it all right, Yeah, yeah, he said. And I'm also preface saying that me and Gabby and all of us we are girls. Girls, and this woman truly did not know. Yeah she is not. I don't you know what I mean, but you know the world, and I do want to say that, yeah exactly. He did tell me he said. The moment I kissed her, I told her I was engaged. And that's where the problem lies for me with this excuse of well, you and I weren't engaged. Well, why is that the first thing you chose to tell her when you were trying to stop yourself from going further? Yeah? Because you are picking and knew it. Yeah, when you want to be engaged. Yeah. And my main takeaway, like watching this entire conversation unfold, is I'm thinking, like, what would happen if you had stayed together longer? And like there wasn't just an argument and miscommunication and you're trying to work through something like what would have happened if something really hit the fan with somebody's health or safety, or like you have children involved and something goes south. What is he going to do in that situation? If he does this at this moment in time and goes out and kisses somebody when he's still engaged with you, Yeah, come out. Yeah, It's like, what would happen if something really went out? How was he really? Exactly? And That's all I've ever asked for in a partner, especially being in the career I'm in where I will be away, and we will have times where I'm having a fight with you and I'm gone for five days. You've already proven within one month, not even of our relationship, but you can't be faithful to me in a fight or in a hard time. And there's no excuse for that. And I don't think there's another side to that. I think, Yabby, you hit it right on the head when you were talking about just I mean, how quickly these characteristics are brought out. It's so unfortunate Rachel, to be going through this breakup in public. It's a lot, it's a lot of pressure. Everything comes out really fast, faster than you can process it. But like your character shows, and I always say that, like when when shit's hitting, when shit is truly hitting the fan, every human goes back to their default. What is that default? Is it a person who you know wants to hop on and try to protect their reputation, you know, through through lies, through yeah, right, But like seriously though, that's the reason why is like everyones to their default and because the public is involved, because it now points to your reputation, not just your reputation with the person you're in a relationship, but the world reputation right a little more forceful, which people feel like, Yeah, it's just like, you know, stay trud, who are who you are? You you have stay kind, You've stuck to your guns. You know what's right, you know what's wrong. You can smell through the bullshit. And not everyone's going to do that. Not everyone's going to be able to read that. There might be people who dislike you because they feel like Tina is telling the truth or whoever is telling the truth. But just know that you have people in your corner gap, but you have people in your corner like you are not going to be able to please everybody, but you should be able to sleep at night knowing you know what happened, you know how it went down. You know, you know exactly where everything lies. And it's unfortunate, but you can only spend so much energy, you know, trying to clean up after his mess when he should be the one cleaning it up. You know. Yeah, he is the mess, mess, He's been the mess, he stays. Yeah, you know what this is giving me vibes of right now? Have you seen the First Wives Club? Shut up? That seen the First Wives Club? Oh my god, you guys don't get mad get everything. Okay, well we're badass movie. We're all in La. No, now, we're all going to be in La first movie. Yes, Michelle officially lives here. Now do you live here? You're heading out here? I are you moving? Yeah? I have a lease here? No? Yeah, screw I believe in San Diego. I seriously, that's like the first. That's the first, Like wine or tequila. I prefer tear everything the first open bar movie night. Oh, every wish to be a fly on the wall the first time we all see each other out. Well, I'm gonna have everyone to take their phones and put them in a basket. We have no phone books. We could sell truly stories of overthing. I can't wait for that. It's going to be We're gonna have to plan this very movies at six one three, yeah, or do come with DMZ and yeah, we calls the paparazzi just so people get the realty. I tell you what. I was almost just gonna say the address, but suber but okay, I need you both to give well, Okay, first off, this is a shameless plug for you because we need to keep you on Dance with the Stars. Vote at what number Rachel two five two three g A B B Why why? Um? Obviously your pros a Bachelor happy hour right now we have everyone give their rose and thorn. So since this season is now thankfully done, I'm sure you can really easy what is your rose and what is your thorn? For both of you? Honestly start with the thorn and end with the rose because we're ending on a happy note today a lot of negativity with everybody else. So yeah, you wanna do you want to start? Yeah? I feel like I'm just gonna sum it up, like the thorn is the controversy that we're both enduring, and my rose is Rachel. Yeah, um, I have to say my thorn is um you say his number, his baddress. Yeah, like eggs are welcome. But yes, obviously my roses Gabby and I think just our bachelorette's sisterhood because I truly do appreciate both of you and all the other bachelottes who have reached out to us and supported us through this journey. And now we're on the other side, and luck to the next one, Good luck to the next one. Good friend is we got you? I don't have any more champagne, but I'm going to raise a glass to the two of you for Oh, thank you. You can't cheer yeah backwashum, but cheers to doing something no one has ever done or seen on this show before. You guys had a crazy season, but I will say you came on on the other end, bigger, better, and only good things are going to happen from here. Gabby Rachel, you guys know that we absolutely love you, We adore you, We are here for you regardless after this. Please take what I said to hearts like. You're not leaving empty handed. Truly, you're not leaving empty handed. You guys never wavered from who you were, who you are your friendship. You never let no damn voy get between you, guys, And that's hard, that's hard in this really like intense public situation. So I just we love you. We love you guys so much. Hello, happy our listeners. It's Machine and Becca back once again. And even though we already have this week's episode an interview out with Gabby and Rachel, we wanted to record this extra part to go over things that happened or didn't necessarily happen during after the final Rows last night. It was a heavy one. There was a lot to take in with both women, but there was also stuff that we both wished was addressed on the stage that wasn't. And that is for anyone who doesn't know a little bit of context here. Eric, who Gabby is now heavily engaged too, came out a few weeks ago with photos in his old year book of him and blackface, and since then he has issued an apology on his Instagram. But Michelle and I were really helping. It was addressed in last night's episode just because it is such a prevalent thing that it's taken place in this country, but also something that keeps happening within this franchise. And so Michelle, I want to give you the mic and give you some time to give us your thoughts and feelings. I feel like your voice needs to be amplified. This is a conversation that needs to continue to happen and we need to be held accountable. We need to hold people accountable, which is why I would love to give you the mic and to get some things off of your chest and talk through this together. Yeah, you know, I I thank you, and I walking into last night's episode, I think we knew we knew a lot. We knew, you know, just kind of we had talked to Gabby and Rachel about everything that had gotten on, and we knew that I was kind of going to just be a tough episode regardless on without you know, this other racism controversy on top of it. And I think I know that I'm still processing it, but you know, we're sitting side by side during this live show, thinking that that this is going to be something that's talked about, you know, and I come straight from that Jane season which was all about racial controversy, and you know, the change within the franchise that needs to be made and that is going to be made, and so, you know, I think me, even Caitlin sitting there in the audience, as this show is like progressing, you know, we're moving through Tino's segment, and then as we get to Gabby segment, I think we were very, very shocked as we kind of started to process and realize that, you know, the show's addressing the text messages between Eric and this ex girlfriend that came out, but as it was going on, we were not addressing the black face. And I don't know if I mean for those who are watching that last segment kind of once we got to Zach's you know, introduction as the next Bachelor. You know, I would I use myself on the stage, and just because I was so upset and I was so angry that I felt like I had put myself in a situation where I felt completely silenced, and you know, thinking about you know, the pop community at home and all of us were expecting this franchise to address this and navigate through it. And we've been here before. Why are we here again? And not only why are here we again, but why are we making the same mistakes of how we are addressing it or completely not addressing it? And so I know, Becca, you were also very upset and understood why I was no longer on the stage and excuse myself, but I think, I think with where I'm at is hurt. I'm exhausted. I have been with this franchise for the last two years and have really really pushed for different changes to happen, and for this mistake to be made is just unacceptable. And it's for me personally, it's there's no reasoning, there's no excuse of we didn't have enough time, because that's that's your statement with how you view this community then, or maybe we like it was forgotten or it was not just like nobody crossed nobody's mind, or it was intentionally you know, pushed off. Whatever the reason is for me, it doesn't matter, because you're still feeling the exact same way. You are still completely not acknowledging this entire community of people. And I felt like I was hurt just because it's like, why, why wouldn't we talk about this? We talked about it on Matt's season. Was it because it was a black Bachelor? Is it any less important because you know Gabby or Eric Arno black or a person of color? You know? It's just like I'm still processing. But like I the more I talk about it, I just continue to get more and more angry. And I want to feel like the franchise is pushing for a change, and I want to feel like, you know, me as Bachelor and Matt as Bachelor and Rachel Lindsay and all these other things, and just that it wasn't just all performative and we're kind of sitting back to wait to see if it was or was not. But this situation, it really does feel like the expectation in the standards is set of you know, how we're viewed or not viewed or not seen right, And just to add on, I don't think we had any expectation that that would not be addressed. We went in last night thinking by all means that that was going to be a conversation that's had, because otherwise I would have not said in the audience if if I knew it wasn't going to be addressed, I wouldn't go and support that, you know, like if I you know, or even if I thought he was going to be just like sprinkled over, I wouldn't have gone like, there's you know, a decent part of the conversation should have gone to that. And so yeah, yeah, I and so and I saw you afterwards. You were visibly shaken upset rightfully, So I totally understand. And I actually had a conversation with Thomas afterwards because he wasn't there, but I called him and I told him everything that went down because he hadn't seen it yet because we were there earlier. But I told him what went down and like what to expect, and he was baffled. And I prior to going on in recording this part, I really wanted to have a conversation with him because he is a black man and his voice I think needs to also be heard and amplified. And I asked him, like me going on this podcast, I want to be your voice and just try to relay how you felt in that moment, you know, not even having this issue be acknowledged in any way, shape or form. And his main takeaway was he's also so frustrated, and he said it best. He said it was a conscious effort made to not talk about it, which is the problem. And he had posted on his stories about it and a lot of the dms he's been getting our people brushing it over too and saying it's not an issue and if somebody apologizes and it happened years ago, don't keep bringing it up. But that's the problem. It's like we still have to have these conversations, right like we were having this conversation a very similar, very very similar conversation on my season, which was back in twenty eighteen, and at that point I was in a different headspace. I made a ton of mistakes and I was definitely in the wrong. I handled that situation so poorly, but we still had the opportunity to address it and talk about it. And since then, I have still been trying to be better and I will always be better and I will still always make mistakes. But that's where that's where you have to start, is to address it and have a conversation. And that's where we're at. And so to see you and to see Thomas now, who this has happened several times, after several consecutive seasons. Why don't we have a better plan in place? And that's a whole other conversation to be had, and it's not going to be had with us on this podcast, but I think something can at least start here with us and so, and I just wanted your voice to be heard because I was. I was incredibly and still am incredibly upset with how it was handled, how it was not handled. And you know, it's just even after, you know, as I was left the stage, and I just like, what do I do with this energy? Right? What do I like? What do I do with this? And kind of like you said with Thomas, um, kind of there was definitely a moment as I was speaking to others, there's definitely you know, because I'm visibly upset, I'm angry, I'm crying like I'm normally like a fairly calmon like career. It was always right right, like I was visibly flustered, crying, upset, angry, you know, and so people were going to trying to figure out, you know, what's going on, and it took a minute for people to realize what just went down, what had just happened. And you know, I did sit down and speak with some of the executive producers about how this was handled, and they haven't seen me visibly upset like that before, but to really express that, like I don't want an apology, I don't want a reason. I want this to be fixed. I want these mistakes to not happen because they shouldn't be happening period. You know, we've been through this, however many times, like this is all we have to like we need to open our eyes and listen. I mean, even before going in the episode tonight, like it's we pay attention to the buzz online. We pay attention to what's being tweeted, what's being spoken about, what the controversies, controversies are about, and so there was already buzz about whether this was going to get you know, spoken about recovered or not, you know, by the pop community, like it was already pointed out, and just to even like be sitting there in the audience and there are other you know, people of color in the audience as well, and just like as the show continued to go on, looking into their eyes and making eye contact, there was a certain energy, There was an energy that like we knew what was happening. We very well knew what was happening. There was an energy change. And the problem with that is the fact that nobody else around since that energy change except for the people of color. That's the issue. That's the privilege. And like what you kind of said with with Thomas and the messages that he got or he received, of like, well, wait, what's what's the issue? He already issued an apology. I'd be very curious or almost like you don't even need to know like the you know, the race of those people sending those messages probably not people of color, right, And so how are you to sit back and say that a situation, especially a racial situation or a feeling or is taken care of when you are not that race. That's privilege, right, And you in the conversation that we had with Gabby yesterday for the podcast, you made such a good point and that was like, continue to have these conversations and to especially for me and being in the white community and the fan base I will say for this franchise is predominantly white, is to still try to put in the work and just learn and take five minutes to educate yourself on a topic, and don't just do it right now, you know, because the heat is on, because everything is so heightened in this week or this month, whatever it might be. And I think that was such a good point and something that I actively want to do, and I should have started this earlier. But I am going to start a resource page on my Instagram where people can go and take ten minutes every day to just click on one of the links to read an article or you know, take an hour to watch a documentary. It will be there on my page. And again, like I have been in a very similar situation to Gabby, what I've done things differently in hindsight a thousand percent. I can't go back in the past and change it. I can only try to maybe give her advice for being in a very similar situation. And I'm not perfect, and I want this to come across as like holier than thou, like let me educate you. That is not what I'm trying to do here. But I also love to learn, love to educate myself. So I'm in the mindset of like why not, why not to be a better ally? Why not educate myself more? And I can only hope and keep my fingers crossed that our listeners and viewers of this franchise are out there too to want to do the same, you know, like why not? Just like kind of I feel I'm going to speak for both of us, Becka, but correct me, correct me if you need to. But like you know, you and me setting up different resources pages, We're not going to allow the excuse of I don't know where to start, because we're gonna give you a place to start. Yeah, I'll make it very, very freaking easy for you. We are going to make it very easy for you. We're gonna give you a place to start. And that's the biggest thing is that, like we had these conversations two years ago sitting on a stage, and I've carried those with me. You know that those still have weighed on me those still weigh on me. Those are always going to weigh on me because those situations happen very frequently. And I feel like in Bachelor Nation, Yeah, it's amazing that we have so many supporters and die hard fans and all these different things, but the fact that this has happened so many times in different ways through this show is like something as got a change, Something has got to change. And even I challenge, you know, everybody who's involved with the show. I know that, like I get the busy schedules, I get back to back, you know, jumping from one thing show to the next to the next. You know, we're about to start paradise. But really, like people who are producing the show, it's also your job to educate yourself. Because this one, this one was on that them, this one right here, it's also on our viewers. It's also on Eric, it's also on you know what I mean, everybody involved to discuss it. But for teaching, we had to do professional development all the time. And you know, when I say that, I'm not generalizing, right, I'm not generalizing when I say that, not everybody's head is in the right spot. There are producers who sat with me last night and cried with me and know very well exactly what I'm speaking about because I feel it as well. And you know, and then there are ones that you know, maybe they didn't notice. Right, everybody's in a different place, everybody's in a different journey of you know what you want to call it, becoming woke, becoming more educated on these types of things. But the degree to what this is happening is really not okay. And that's why I'm saying I'm challenging everybody too. Really, like every week you should be setting time aside to learn about this. You should be getting to the point where you're seeking information, not just receiving it and reacting as it happens. And I think that's what I really want to see this franchise do, is like professional development might be something that needs to take place. You know, we learn about implicit bias as teachers because we're dealing with youth and creating and molding different like young minds too better the world. We have to do that as teachers, right in a world where we live in a very diverse world, Why would you want to have that same type of professional development because of all the different walks of life that are coming into the show. And yes, it's reality TV and there's business to it, and I get that, but at the same time, you want real love stories. The viewers want real love stories. In the end. In order to get that, you have to understand the people that are there, and it can't just be white people. And so I do think that I do think that professional development should be something that should be a priority required. People will say like, we want to see more all walks of life, more diversity on the screen, which yes, that is so important, but also behind the screen too, And I think that's one takeaway that we witness first hand last night, is we need more people of color in the executive levels to help make these conversations actually happen and push the needle forward, move the needle forward, whatever they're saying is and yeah, and I guess like when sharing resource is One thing that I just because it pertains to this situation in general, is when people say, because I've also gotten m my DMS, I'm sure you have. We will definitely after this podcast is released or people are still going to say, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. Eric liked Jimmie Hendrix which is something you'll notice in his apology that he states, but it's not that, it's like, go back to when black face was started and educate yourselves from then on and know why now it is offensive. And I that's one of the articles I'll share on my resources here is it goes into a deep dive of the roots of black face, and I think it was Also there's a documentary called Thirteenth that I think touches on it too and talks a little bit about it. Like those are two great places to start. But knowing the why behind it's not just like you know, oh, he painted his face black, like that's not a big deal. It's it's the why, and that's where we all can learn more because I didn't learn about that in elementary school or high school or college unfortunately, which is definitely something I should have but you know, I'm doing it now. But but it's just educating ourselves to the root of everything, correct, And I think that's what's it's so hard, because Okay, so like if you there's just so many layers to everything, and it doesn't mean you know, there's so many different layers, and you have to have people who are willing to peel back those layers of everything and understand, you know, the differences in growing up, and like there's just so many because those conversations, you know, I remember my dad sitting down with my brother and I as we started to turn sixteen, and we had so many different conversations my dad with us of getting pulled over or exactly what you do, what you grab for speak, like we practice the lines of what we would say so that we could be safe. Like I was taught that I was I was taught about you know that we're exactly where the N word came from. I was taught about the Confederate flag. I was taught about blackface. I was taught I was taught about all these different things because my family had to raise me in a way to make sure that I was educated and to make sure that I stayed safe. And so that's not necessarily the case, typically the case, you know, in a white family. And so it's just like they're at this point, we have to seek out information to learn about those things because otherwise this is going to continue to happen, right, And we're just repeating and going in circles and going in circles now, and you know, it leaves us in a tough position because I know after tonight, I'm emotionally exhausted, but Gay, I know that you're emotionally exhausted. And it's really like, how do you keep moving forward in a franchise that you feel like doesn't support you? Right? And I want you to know, as a friend, as an ally like, I am here to support you no matter what. And that's why I think having this sit down right now and having this conversation was very necessary. We asked people to work over time to make sure we could be here and do this, and this is just the start. And this isn't the first time we've had to have these conversations, and this isn't the first time we've seen that this on this franchise, And sadly, I don't think it's going to be the last. But my only hope moving forward is that we don't have to like scramble to have another conversation because something didn't take place. Something should still be taking place. This happens again, a conversation still should be had and dressed in a much different better way. And so, yeah, it's just been it's been, you know, been heavy and we we you know, we do understand mistakes happen, right, like you kind of spoke about, and we do. You know, there's been so many different comments about like well, production should be vetting the people, like you know, deeper to a deeper level so that they don't let any of these people on the show. And it's like yes to a certain yes, but now that this happened, how did we react? How are we going to react to it? And this is how we reacted to it. So it's like I feel like every single step we're not doing it correctly. We're more reactive, not proactive. Exactly exactly, yes, exactly, And so this is this truly is really change change. I challenge the viewers or our listeners. I challenge you know, Bastor Nation, viewers, um production, you know, just everybody too set time aside every week to learn, and if you're not sure where to go, like you said, we're going to post things on our resource highlight so that you have a place to start. But even if you understand everything that had has happened, you know myself, I still can learn. I still can listen to podcasts, I still can you know, read a book. I still can watch a documentary. There's so many different pieces of like media now that you can can do. You know, you can find time you're in the car, put on the podcast. Yeah, you know, you're cleaning, put on the podcast, or throw on the documentary and just listen to it. There's just so many little things that you can do to do better, and you just got to start. And we all need to do better. Yeah, yeah, we all do better when we all do better. I can't remember who said that, Michelle. I am so happy we were able to sit down, and I know this has taken so much out of you. I can see it. I want you to just take a little break and if you need time away from the podcast, I will one thousand percent understand support you. I don't think this is gonna change overnight. We're gonna it's gonna take some time. But I really just want you to take some time for yourself to and focus on you and give some self love to you. But if there's anything else you want to say right now, I mean now it's the time. Otherwise we just got to move on from here and like you said, be better, do better. Yeah, No, I just I think you know, Beck and I are going to make up a point to UM kind of gear our listeners towards our resources. UM or give just a few minutes talking about it each week, just so that I'm making sure that like it's a constant part of our conversation and as a as a reminder because yeah, people do get busy, UM but truly just yeah, this has been emotional. This has been exhausting. Um I I you know, sorry, it's good. Change is better a big coote person, but it's just I really hope that there's some changes made because I would love, I would love to stay in this position. But like I said before, it's it's been emotional, it's been a lot, and really want to make sure that my energy is put in somewhere where it's valued. It's valued, it's seen, and it's and it's equal. And so yeah, I appreciate you taking time to talk. And also for our listeners. We can reach out to back and I have questions. If you need support, we can give you resources as well. Yeah, well, thank you bout your happy Hour listeners. But bigger thank you too, you Michelle, you know I love you. Thank you, love you too. Becks. I'll talk to you later girl. Okay bye. Thank you Bachelor Happy Hour listeners, and make sure to hit us up on social. You can do so if you follow us at Bachelor Happy Hour on Instagram and then from there you'll find everything you need to know to follow us on both Twitter and TikTok and Boucher Happy Hour is available on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen, and you can listen ad free by subscribing to Wondering Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondering App. Thanks everyone, and chat with y'all next week. Cheers