Dr. Jean Cirillo: and Lt. Tom Antonetti: After the Tour: How first responders process Trauma

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First Responders and veterans often witness more trauma in a
single shift than most people will face in a lifetime.
Over time, that weight can compound. Too many suffer in silence,
afraid that asking for help could cost them their career
or their identity. Today, we are joined by doctor Jean Cirillo,
a renowned clinical and forensic psychologist, and retired Lieutenant Tom
Antonetti to talk about PTP Talk to Me post Tour,
a first of its kind mental health support program built
by law enforcement for law enforcement and now expanded to
support veterans and all first responders. This is a powerful
conversation about trauma, trust and why no one who serves
should ever have to carry it alone. So before we
dive into our episode, we'll be back with an un
in the show right after a word from our sponsors.
Thanks for joining us today. Thank you.
I appreciate your invitation.
Oh it's my pleasure if you would give us a
little information on what it is that you do.
Okay, I'm a psychologist. I've been a practicing psychologist on
Long Island for about thirty five years. I'm also an
attorney that's been for about six years. So I love
to do things like family therapy, custody issues, post traumatic
stress disorder, as with the postal processing for police and military,
and anybody EMTs who has a stressful job that they
don't get to process. The crisis is not over after
they leave work. Sometimes it's just beginning when they go
home and take it home with them. That's what we
seek to prevent.
Can you give us an insight to some of the
scenarios I mean, you just brought up some very interesting facts.
I think a lot of people realize this, but they
don't realize it to the extent of what you're seeing.
Everyone thinks they are made out of stone, Yet here
they are having issues and bringing it home with them exactly.
And you know, sometimes they act like they're made out
of stone. They use dark humor in order to cope
with a very dark situation. So it's not unusual for
when they're picking up after a really nasty crime scene
for them to appear insensitive to a lay person that
doesn't understand that they're joking about it to keep themselves
sane and in the moment and able to do it.
But there has to be a regulated crashing time, which
is what post tool processing is about, to prevent them
from taking it out on their wives' kids, or the bottle,
or drugs or any means that they think will provide
short term relief.
That makes perfect sense. I see Tom just joined us. Hi, Hi,
good afternoon, Thanks for joining us today.
Oh my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Oh, it's my pleasure if you would give our listeners
a little information on what it is that you do.
Well.
I've retired, I've retired from the New York City Police Department.
I retired in the rank of lieutenant, and I spent
the last thirteen years of my time there in the
press office as a spokesperson for the department. Prior to that,
I worked various units on patrol in both Manhattan and Brooklyn.
In Manhattan, I worked in Midtown and Midtown South Precinct
and in Brooklyn in the East New York Section in
the seventy fifth Precinct.
Okay, so how did you and Dactor Sorillo connect?
We connected through a mutual friend of mutual acquaintance who
put us both in contact with each other. Had conversation
obviously prior to today, and from there decided to go forward
in speaking further on the topic and current matters or
excuse me, relatable matters of this topic. Related topics law enforcement,
also first responder generally speaking, and the effects, both current
and after effects.
That's a huge subject when you start talking about the
mental wellbeing of the first responders. Now, this next question
is for either one of you when they go through
those traumatic situations, then afterwards they have to process everything
they've been through. Everyone thinks it's just the victim or
the victim's family that has to go through this trauma.
They don't realize the first responders have to process as well,
and then, depending upon the level of the trauma that
was involved, will have everything to do in the way
that the first responders process this. So how do you
help them get through all this?
I know with the EMT people, what they see is
the first they're often the first people to arrive, say
at a horrible car accident where somebody's been decapitated, and
they have to get in there. They have to first
of all do triage as to who can be saved
and who can't. And I know there was somebody where
there was a shooting in his house on Thanksgiving. Seven
out of eight people died. He was the survivor and
the police when it happened to be the police then
and then the AMT came, but the police would be
in there, they'd say fatal, fatal, Okay, this guy can
be helped, and you right away decide who can be helped?
How are you going to help him in a split second.
So yeah, they have to process that too. They can
be very calm, collected and cool because they know their job,
so they rise to the level of their training, but
then later on, after it's over, they can fall to
the level of their emotions and that's when they need
the post tool processing.
How do you help them get through that? I mean,
that's very traumatic. It's one thing if it happens once
in a while, but they're dealing with this pretty much
on a daily basis, So how do you help them
get through it? And how do you help them process it.
It's available anonymously. They can come on the website, they
can sign on with an email, they can sign on anonymously,
they can text, they can show their face, they can
speak without showing their face. They can give their name
or not give their name. It's totally up to them.
The anonymity is guaranteed, and that's so important, especially for police,
because if their scene as too traumatized. Let's say they
had to use their gun to take somebody down because
that person was threatening an innocent civilian, then they still
have to process ill depression, fear, everything else, and they
need to process it with their peers who understand what
you go through after you just did something that you
wouldn't normally do in the regular world, but that you
have to do as an authority figure and they can
process it either way. And sometimes they don't want to
admit to drinking, fighting with their wife or anything, or
husband or anything like that because they don't want to
lose their gun. And the police will sometimes take away
an office's guns since the gun is a major tool
or one of the major tools. If he or she
doesn't have their gun, they can't work. They have to
be behind the desk, and they don't want to do that.
Right now, Tom, how do you fit into this whole scenario.
You're retired now, so how are you incorporating yourself into
helping these people that need the help?
Well, I can tell you twofold. First off, I still
maintain a strong network and connection with those that I've
worked with, both those that I've served, both that have
served under me since I was in a supervisor capacity,
but also in a more splintering effect. I'm with the
Fraternal Order of Police and in my local area, I
serve on the board and in the capacity of secretary. Now,
with that, it's not just clinically effective as the secretary
for the Fraternal Order of Police. There's a great interaction,
and in that interaction there's an exchange change of ideas
and exchange of how you're doing, how the family is.
It's more personal. It's very into personal when we have
our meetings, when we have our events. You know, the
fraternal Lord of Police obviously looks to help those within
that community first responders, all lines, all lines. So I've
maintained that communication, that direct contact with active retired members
of law enforcement, just seeing how they're doing, and not
on obviously to the depth or to the extent that
the doctors speaking on and dealing with, but on this personal,
almost colloquial level where there's that comfort of I know,
I understand we're part of the same quote unquote fraternity.
So in speaking with you, you understand what I'm expressing to you.
You understand the good, the bad, everything in between.
So the opening up, the hearing.
And now as we get older, as the years go
by and their offspring become members or become first responds
excuse me, or family members' friends.
You hear their story.
So now it becomes almost generational and you're getting a
deeper dive into how they're dealing with it on a
new level, because things are different today than they were
when I had first started, or from even ten, twelve,
fifteen years ago, so still staying connected obviously to both
active and retired in those two different capacities.
Now, have you seen and I'm really sure that you
probably have situations where people fall through the cracks, then
they retire. How do you find ways to help them?
They're still part of the fraternal order, yet even though
that's true, they still feel very alone and by themselves.
How do you get past that firewall that they will
put up so their mental health stays strong and they
don't go down that deep dark hole that no one
wants to see them in.
And it's true, you make a good, unfortunate point, because
there are some and sometimes and I don't mean to
say anything or to speak anyway with just a broad brush.
It's individual specific. So you're going to have individual remedies,
You're going to have individual conditions. But if I can
speak just by and large with this, sometimes some people
will think, well, you know what, that's just Joe being Joe,
and he'll get through it. He'll get by or I'll
tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, is everything okay?
Not really invested in what that answer would be, but
I felt I've done my part again rhetorically speaking, So
what is done or what can be done, what I've
seen done is just the follow up, just not letting
those that you know slip.
Through the crack.
Unfortunately, there will be a number that that is the
case that they do slip through that crack. You try
to minimize that. I know that if I and I
had seen and I obviously wouldn't name names or conditions
or circumstances. But I've seen those that are struggling, active
members and even retired, they haven't adjusted to the trauma
that they encountered in whatever capacity it came, be it
something they encountered while on the job, while working, something
they encounted in their personal life.
But they're not right, They're not right now.
I don't have that degree that I can speak to
them with that level of professionalism that's going to set
them on the right way. But I can still speak
to them in that conversational aspect, or in that conversational
tone to get them to where they need to be,
to get them to the programs that exist, or to
the people to speak to further the conversation. It's not
going to start or end with me, but it can
with these other entities, these other individuals, these other programs
that can best serve them. So to get them there
and to say, hey, did you follow up? Did you
call that number I gave you? Did you email the person,
the company, the entities that I provided to you to
see if they are in fact doing so, And then
always just to follow up with them at irregular intervals
to see, hey, how are you doing?
I care for your well being.
Yeah, that's a great thing you're doing.
For sure.
When some of these people get to a point where
they ultimately need more help than what any of the
first responders precincts can do. What are some of the
steps that you do as a psychologist to help them
smooth things out and tamper everything down so they can
tolerate and live with all the emotions that they've been through.
Sure, we have referral sources. Most of them have kept
their health insurance for New York City or Long Island
or Upstate or whatever they have, so we can refer
them to people that are psychologists, social workers, and sometimes
psychiatrists if medication seems to be needed, that take their
insurance that have worked with many people in their field,
and they used to hearing about a lot of these problems,
and especially a retired personal talk more. They're glad to
because they don't have to worry that somebody's going to
know they have a mental health recort. Even if it's
confidential between the therapists, the insurance company. It doesn't go
to the employer like it used to twenty years ago
before Hipper Rule, but the idea is that it'll be confidential.
They don't have to worry about losing their gun. They
do take a gun with them if they want to
do security work or for their own protection, but normally
that doesn't become an issue is when they're on active
duty policing. So yes, we have plenty of referrals to
healthcare professionals, and they always have that option even without
coming to us. They can go directly. But sometimes when
we start to realize, hey, this guy needs a little
bit more and maybe their situation or their precinct was
a lot more traumatic every day. You have to remember
a police office is more trauma and horror in one
day on the job than most people see in a lifetime.
So yes, we can refer them on to mental health
resources less let them know that many of their colleagues
use these resources. Also in the therapist is somebody that
is used to dealing with veterans with police, with EMTs,
and people who deal with very high stress job.
Yeah, I can't disagree with you. There they very high
stressed jobs and they do see a lot, a lot
more than the average person sees. Now, most people they
go to work, punch in, they get out of work,
they punch out. But with your job, it can be
a twenty four hour day job. Sometimes you might be
off the clock. But then you see something happens, you
can't just walk away from it, and you jump in
and try and help out. Then it creates another trauma.
Yet they go back to work like it never happened.
How do you help them? Because there is some that
are very good at masking their feelings and their emotions
and what they're going through. Most people would never know
that they were going through it because they hide it
so well, how do you sift through that or can
you sift through that not knowing so they don't go
down that deep dark hole that no one wants to
see them go into.
Well, when they come on the website, there's some knowledge
that this isn't normal, that they've been feeling bad lately. Certainly,
other police officers, other EMTs know about the program, they
can encourage it, but a lot of them are taught
on the job. They have to mask their feelings. You know,
I remember once a CoP's saying to me, he'sa oh
that lady was frantic. The cop was calm, and the
abuser in this case was calm. He was an ex cop. Okay,
he got kicked out because he was doing things that
were not acceptable and he wasn't going for help. But anyway,
you're taught to keep calm, not to show how afraid
or how angry or how depressed you are. So it's
hard to put the mask down. And that's one of
the aspects of the program. You're taught this is a
place where you can let your head down, let you
take your mask off. You know, how you shower after
going through a dirty neighborhood or rummaging through garbage bins
to find a piece of evidence, you show you're not
ashamed to do that. That's what the postal processing is.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. They're taught to mask it.
They're taught to stay calm. Let's say they do it
so well so well that most people around them do
not know that they are going through some very serious issues.
Every time they go out, every time they see something bad,
they're holding it in and each piece of that puzzle
is forming a picture, and that picture is one that's
going in a very bad place. So how do you
address this so it does not get out of control?
Well, I would say it's situation specific. What you're really
teaching them is the ability to discriminate among different situations.
When the ambulance pulls up and someone's badly hurt, you
don't have time to process feelings. When you go home
and you have some time to go on the computer,
to go to post processing, or to even make a
therapy appointment, that's the proper time the therapist's office postal processing,
which again can be anonymous. So if there's something you
wouldn't want to tell a therapist, you can say it here,
and if you're anonymous, you know it's not going to
be traced. Because you can develop a certain paranoia after
being in especially the police field, you feel like everybody's
looking out to catch you with something because you're always
catching people. But there's a proper time in place on
the job no out of the job. When you're home
and when you're safe in a safe environment. The therapist
and postal processing are safe environments.
Now, Tom, I understand it is kind of a continuing
education for first responders. Is there one for or continuing
education on how to avoid any circumstances that could put
them in a bad place with their mental health?
Well, insofar as certain degrees or programs that I had taken.
I'm thinking more of internal programs to where they learn
to process it and work with it so that they
don't have any issues moving forward.
Yes, that's twofold.
Now there are members of the service who are designated
who work in those designated units, who are there twenty
four hours a day to answer that call, and they
are specially trained for that to take that call. Then
for the furtherance, it could be just as doctor Gene
had mentioned, to then bring it to that program, to
that level, but at least to be the first responder
for the first responders. So there are specially designated members
of the service who are set aside in those units
to be there for help, and that twenty four hours
a day, seven days a week. Now for a supervisor
for a coworker. Just to bring it down to the
most basic, immediate level for a supervisor, for a coworker,
you're on the job, training is and you're told this,
You're told this directly, implicitly, Hey, are you okay? Colloquially speaking,
directly speaking, are you okay? That manifests itself in a
number of ways through you or through direct conversation, through
taking someone on the side. As a supervisor, Yes, it
was my responsibility to identify to see those signs, verbal
and nonverbal cues of is there something manifesting here? Is
there a problem potential or an actuality, maybe something at home,
maybe something from a heavy job that we left, something
that is still bugging this individual, this officer. So you
try to identify that and you try to talk with them,
get them to open up, and a lot of times,
as you both mentioned, they're not willing to do that.
There's a belief and I've seen this, I've seen this
thankfully erode over the years, where again, when I had
first joined the department, the belief was you don't have
to talk to anyone again overriding I'm speaking in generalities here,
you don't have to talk to anyone where here will
handle things when we close ranks, will handle things in.
And of ourselves.
That has dissipated, that belief has eroded. And I have
seen that in my over two decades with the department
and now having left it and still being connected in
the ways in which I am seeing that. There is
no blemish on your record or how you're viewed in
seeking the help that you need.
So there's the direct those that are trained.
To answer and respond, and those who were all part
of the same organization. You just know, don't turn a
blind eye, don't say he or she will be okay.
Ask the question. You do have a responsibility. You do
have a responsibility, then you have to act on that.
I think that's great that you have that set up.
Now you're talking New York City, one of the largest
cities in the world. You have a very large police force.
It's not like some of the smaller towns or smaller
cities where everyone knows everyone. How do you maintain that
level and that stability so that no one falls through
the cracks.
Each precinct is like a little society of sub society
in itself, and they do know the people within the precinct.
They look out for their brothers and their partners and
their friends. So even though it's a large city and
there's a lot more crime and a lot more violent
crime as in any large city, it's a small precinct.
Go relatively small, all right, you go, you're going to
say some.
Just to compound that answer. Yes, that's true, and I
was going to speak exactly to that. You don't look
in the totality of the numbers, the amounts, the amount
of members of the service and how are they served.
You're right, within.
Each command, each precinct, each unit, there is the oversight,
there is the watching over of the personnel to identify,
so it's in its own respective silo that they see
where an issue or problem, a question may arise, may occur,
and deal with that. Then when it has to go
up the proverbial chain of command, it does so at
least they're able to be served. At least they're able
to have that sort of guidance or penning in of
those individuals that would need the services, whatever they may be,
within their own respective precinct, unit, designated command.
Yeah, that's great. And the reason why I ask that
is because a lot of people look at new York
City and they just think a large police force and
they don't think about smaller precincts scattered around the city.
This way they can support each other. I think that's
a very important thing for people to know.
Yes, agreed.
Now in closing, and I'll start with you, Docta. What
do you think is important for the listeners to hear
not only on what you're doing, but how it applies
to everything you're trying to do to help the first responders?
Okay, first of all, first and foremost, you don't interfere
with them while they're doing their job.
I mean, you.
Shouldn't have to say that. But many people when it's
their loved one that was just hurt, or when it's
a family member that did something bad and that's why they.
Called the police.
Used to see that a lot more now that there's
education about spouse abuse, but you would see that in
couples with the woman usually would call the police. He
was threatening to bash my head in he broke this
in the house.
He hit me.
She had a black eye, bloody nose, but she doesn't
want to press charges. And now there are laws to
support the police officer if they suspect of felonies been committed,
they have to arrest the person, even if the other
person doesn't want them arrested. So you tell them they
let the police do their job. But you also have
to convince the police not to use excessive violence when
it is not necessary. And that's what the post tool
processing is about. We don't want them to take all
their trauma into one incident, usually a domestic incident, where
it's not needed.
Yeah, that's great information. Now, Tom, what would you like
to say to the listeners so they understand how you
are trying to self police so that no one gets
hurt and everyone keeps moving forward in a mental state
that is healthy.
I think the overarch with that is this police officers,
first responders, the whole gamut of first responders, all of them,
all lines.
They are people.
They are humans, just like everyone else, the cashier at
the supermarket, the sanitation worker, anyone, I mean, anyone in
any walk of life.
They're seen as first responders.
They're seen as the heroes that you God willing.
They're seen as that.
That who respond to emergency situations that others would run
away from. They run towards the danger, but they're seen
I think in conversations that I've had over the years
of doctor, I'm sure you can endorse this statement as well.
They're seen clinically, they're just seen as they are above
the general feel that you are just like me. These
are family members, these are husbands, wives, sons, daughters. They
are people that they deal with the same issues health
wise monetarily speaking, that everyone else does, and oftentimes it's
not so easy to see them as that.
But in being the same.
As others in every walk of life.
That also means that for mental.
Anguish or stress things that they deal with, it doesn't
just come off them without any lasting effects. That's not true.
If anything, because of their line of work, these effects
are deeper and longer lasting. And the way to remedy
these effects, this massive stress that many of them deal with,
they need this, as doctor had mentioned, they need these outlets,
these programs available to them for them to take advantage
of because this is where they are not like the others,
the cashier and the other individuals who I mentioned, because
they are working on that level of dealing with tremendous
emergency stress, pressure pack situations. And when you're dealing with that,
and that's what you know, in your shift, shift in
and shift out, then you need a way to have
that remedied when it gets to the point that you
can't take care of it yourself.
Yeah.
I think that's well stated and well said. Now, can
you tell people how they can find you in a
little more information about your organization?
Well, if you go under police Officer Post Tour Processing,
it's ptpiece for sure, PETP, and then put in posts
to a us to think our entire website and the
names of some of the key staff members will come up.
Okay, perfect, Well, this has been great, great conversation, great information.
I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today.
Same here.
Thanks for the invitation.
All right, thanks so much, thank you.
Oh it's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for taking
time out of your busy schedule to listen to our
show today. We hope you enjoyed it as much as
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