Back to Basics: Understanding All Things Attachment with Ann & Sue (209)

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Why should you care to
learn about attachment?

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Because if you are learning about
how your protective system developed,

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then you're gonna learn what makes you
feel threatened, what makes you respond,

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and how do you regulate yourself?

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And you can learn that these are real
patterned things that you do with

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everybody. You know how when you
break up and you're like, oh my God,

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every one of my partners
has been A, B or C,

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and then somebody finally
points out to you,

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you do know you're the only
consistent factor there for all of us.

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It's because we're doing these repetitive
things that we've learned and we're

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often looking for partners that
fill the familiarity to us.

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And so when we learn what our protective
systems are doing to keep us safe

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and that we probably needed
that when we were younger,

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we needed that with our
particular caregiver or we
needed it in our environment.

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But as we grow older, we usually
don't need that for survival anymore.

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But our body didn't know that it's
continuing to engage in that way.

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Welcome to Therapist Uncensored building
on decades of professional experience.

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This podcast tackles neurobiology,

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modern attachment and more in an honest
way that's helpful in healing humans.

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Your session begins now with
Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

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Hey everybody. Welcome back to Therapist
Uncensored. This is Sue Marriott and I,

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I'm Ann Kelly.

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It is sometimes shocking as in depth
as we always are about talking about

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attachment and neurobiology that a lot
of people out there don't even know what

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the heck attachment is and
that's the norm. <laugh>,

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we're so embedded in
this in our own brain,

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it's hard for us to imagine that it isn't
just the norm out there and yet we're

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the freaks. Honestly. Exactly like not.
Well I wouldn't call us freaks <laugh>,

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um, personally, but,

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but this episode we're
gonna go really high level.

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This will be the start here episode.

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If you don't know anything
about attachment, yeah,

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those of you just joining the,

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the podcast or those that have been a
long time and you're like, oh my god,

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really when they talk about
attachment, what do they mean? Right?

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So this is gonna be a high level
summary. If you're interested,

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go to the show notes.

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There's gonna be lots of reference
there for you to follow up. But we,

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our idea here is to keep
it really simple and quick.

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So what is attachment Ann Kelly?

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So that's a surprisingly
hard question to answer. No,

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don't make it complex. <laugh>, no.
Okay. Detachment ISS about biology.

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Attachment is about how we as mammals

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survive and thrive.

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How we learn to do that by
attaching to our primary people who

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are caregivers out there to keep us alive.

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We're born highly social,
persistently interpersonal.

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No matter how big and burly and
independent you think you are,

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actually you're quite interdependent
on your fellow beings in the world.

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And you know,

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there's a new study that just came out
by the surgeon General just in the last

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month or so, that shows
isolation being this huge,

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huge risk factor in all the
bad things. Health, cardiac,

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longevity, immune system, all
the bad things. And this is,

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we believe related to
flip it the other way,

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when you have a secure attachment history,

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which going back to Anne's definition,

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we have this biological
response very early on to adapt

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based on the family we were born into
the culture we were born into the

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subculture we were born into.

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Our bodies very quickly Figure out how
to keep the parent close and available.

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Then shapes kind of around that, about
what things to do, what to express,

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what not to express.

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And those begin to layer and get embedded
in our nervous system that eventually

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become behaviors that eventually
become thoughts about ourselves,

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how we see ourselves and how we
see other people. And then boom,

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you're in a marriage or
in a truffle or whatever.

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And now it either is
going really smoothly,

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<laugh> because you've learned how to
emotionally regulate and bring people

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close. All of this stuff. This is
kind of the why and, and loves to say,

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you know, why do people care?

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We care because these neurological systems
and the beliefs that form around them

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impact us throughout our life. Well
enough said, I think we're done.

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<laugh>. <laugh>. That's
a very good summary.

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I wish this was live.
So people could say, uh,

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no that's not enough or that's too much
or whatever. I love how you ended there.

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Like in a sense it's like we are social
beings, but we have to be social beings.

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This isn't a choice. It isn't an
option and are incredibly intuitive.

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Pre-programmed body knows
that from in utero on.

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And so our wiring, we come
predetermined, like you said,

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ready to kind of figure it out.

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What do I need to do to keep these
people in my life close and caring and

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nurturing and not too overwhelmed?

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And the why do you care is
because this isn't just,

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most people when we're
talking about attachment,

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they think of parenting or
they think of what happens.

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And if you don't even have
kids out there in the world,

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why should you care about attachment?

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It's because it actually
informs how you relate

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in your social relationships right
now. Your primary relationships,

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how you are able to bond with them
or the struggles you're having.

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Those are all not completely,

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but they are interconnected to how
you learned to protect yourself and to

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connect with other people. You
know, one of the things too,

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to learn what attachment is, is also
to talk about what attachment is not.

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So we aren't saying the
attachment is everything.

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And we're not saying that all your
problems are only because of attachment at

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all. As a matter of fact, used to,

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they thought if you had an
insecure attachment pattern,

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it was never a diagnosis for a baby.

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But if the pattern between the infant
and the parent was seen as either

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dismissing or preoccupied,

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in other words it was an insecure
category that if you were dismissing as a,

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or avoidant as a baby, that you would
grow up to be a dismissing adult.

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And that if you were
preoccupied as a baby,

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that you would grow up to
be a preoccupied adult.

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And that ends up not to be ex.
I mean it's very complicated.

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It's not so direct. But that's good news.

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'cause the good news
means that relationships
throughout our lives impact us

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both positively and negatively.

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So our brains are constantly adapting
to our environment. So just in summary,

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quick summary is that this early
attachment sets up a trajectory

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and if uninterrupted then if
we have developed patterns that

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unintentionally push people away or assume
that people aren't gonna be there for

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us, things like that, if uninterrupted,

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then that can continue to cause
problems in preschool and school age and

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adolescence with grades, choice of
partners, and even your parenting,

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again, not directly all the time, but it,
you know, there's a general direction.

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And what's so cool about that is that
it can be interrupted and intervened in

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any moment, no matter your
age, no matter your history,

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no matter how much therapy you've
done or what you've studied.

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None of that really matters
because it's a deeper embodied

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urge and embodied drive
to seek closeness and also

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to protect ourselves, which is,
if you think about it, right,

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that's complicated. How do I get
close and be safe? Right? That's,

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that's kind of screwed up <laugh> who,

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who designed that <laugh> and that
we have to do both at the same time.

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We have to <laugh>, we
have to like co our system.

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Our nervous system has to cooperate and
like, I gotta let you in, but you know,

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I wanna save my ass. So <laugh>, you
get more dangerous as you get closer.

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You can hurt me more. Honestly,
we're joking about it.

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But that is a really complex set
of requirements to have intimate

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relationships and that's tough.

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So one of the things also
about what attachment isn't,

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we said it's not everything.
It's also not love.

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Some people equate attachment
and love like she loved her baby.

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So it's a positive attachment
or something like that.

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Or there's just a confabulation
about that. It's not love, it's,

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it's more about protection.

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Our attachment systems are only
active when we're feel threatened.

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We can look really good. But
then when something happens and,

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and it activates us enough to be
scared about our relationship,

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that's when you see the
attachment pattern pop up.

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And I think what's important about that
is what does threaten us is not the same

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depending on our early history,

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what feels threatening to one person
is not threatening to the other.

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And you've mentioned if you've
had a secure attachment pattern.

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So if we were gonna back that up
for just a second and talk about,

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we wanna stay away from
the categories, right?

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But there are some ways that our body
develops in more predictable ways

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that says this is threatening
and this is how you protect.

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And through the early learning,
we can either learn to upregulate,

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in other words,

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I need to activate in order to
get my needs met and to thrive,

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my nervous system has to stay
really aware of my surroundings,

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needs to stay in tune
and very much emotionally

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activate up.

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And that's where we would might lean
towards being more preoccupied or

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what we call in our podcast
red or did we have this really

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early learning that says if I get too
emotional and I activate too much,

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it actually sends people away.

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So I learned to sort of deactivate the
need for other people and head more

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towards a dismissing or avoidant
kind of way of relating to people.

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But these are not diagnosis
as, they're not pathology.

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It's how your nervous system has learned
to keep you safe as we really wanna get

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away from the idea that
one's good or one's bad.

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It's what is really effective
in your environment,

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in your subculture to keep you
thriving and surviving the best

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way possible. Yeah, to do that,

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to do that balanced dance of both keeping
us safe, but keeping us connected.

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No, I think that that's
exactly right. And you know,

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Anne said that we wanna stay
away away from categories.

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And the reason for that is because
this early research at 70 years old,

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John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth
are the four leaders.

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And the original research was all it
was, it was looking at these mother baby,

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and at the time it was mother.

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That's certainly attachment has
expanded since then to, you know,

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include all kinds of families and family
configurations and genders and things

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like that.

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But originally those categories were
looking at the relationship between the

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mom and the baby. And it was
just for research purposes.

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This was not designed to
be interpreted as diagnosis

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or as a individual pathology. It was
they were looking at groups of babies.

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So why Anne said that we wanna
stay away from categories is,

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especially if you're thinking of
this early attachment research,

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'cause it did evolve over time.
Again, we're gonna keep it simple.

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So it did evolve and the language
changed and things like that.

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But on TikTok and on Instagram and all
of those things where you have these

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really quick,

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like this is preoccupied attachment
and this is dismissing attachment.

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The problem with that
is we are not one thing.

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Like we absolutely are not one thing.

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And the research was not designed
that early attachment research was not

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designed to be used in that way anyway.

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But it's also not true that we can just
look at a list and say, I'm preoccupied,

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or I'm dismissing, or even I'm secure.

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We're notoriously terrible at
self-identifying our attachment strategies

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<laugh>. Well, and one reason that is,
is because what feels familiar to us,

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what feels natural to us
is what we're gonna do.

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And that doesn't feel like we're
being dismissive or preoccupied.

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It just feels like we're
being natural, right? Like if,

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if we've learned that we need to really
watch our environment out there to keep

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ourselves safe,

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then staying alert and being able to
notice small flaws in our partnerships and

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being able to feel the need to
point it out and correct it.

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<laugh> don't point at me, <laugh> is,

226
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is a really natural feeling. It's
very hard to go inside and say, oh,

227
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that's actually because I'm activated
because of my early learning.

228
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It's because you're out there
being unsafe and it's obvious.

229
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And so it's such an integral part
of who we are that we often think

230
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of these things also as our personality.
Like, oh, I'm, this is just me.

231
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But actually when we learn more,
this is the the part where we say,

232
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why should you care? Why should
you care to learn about attachment?

233
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Because if you are learning about
how your protective system developed,

234
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then you're gonna learn what makes you
feel threatened, what makes you respond,

235
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and how do you regulate yourself?

236
00:14:05,410 --> 00:14:09,310
And you can learn that these are real
patterned things that you do with

237
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everybody. You know how when you
break up and you're like, oh my God,

238
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:14,230
every one of my partners
has been A, B or C,

239
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:16,310
and then somebody finally
points out to you,

240
00:14:16,650 --> 00:14:20,330
you do know you're the only
consistent factor there for all of us.

241
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:24,290
It's because we're doing these repetitive
things that we've learned and we're

242
00:14:24,290 --> 00:14:28,770
often looking for partners that
fill the familiarity to us.

243
00:14:29,310 --> 00:14:33,850
And so when we learn what our protective
systems are doing to keep us safe,

244
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:37,490
and that we probably needed
that when we were younger,

245
00:14:37,790 --> 00:14:42,010
we needed that with our
particular caregiver or we
needed it in our environment.

246
00:14:42,990 --> 00:14:46,930
But as we grow older, we usually
don't need that for survival anymore.

247
00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:51,900
But our body didn't know that it's
continuing to engage in that way because

248
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,140
it seems normal. We don't
even see it necessarily.

249
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,180
And because it's so embodied,

250
00:14:57,670 --> 00:15:02,020
we've developed stories around the way
that our nervous system embodied safety

251
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,420
and danger. So when you say
embodied, what you're meaning is,

252
00:15:06,420 --> 00:15:10,260
is how your body
manifests this experience,

253
00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:12,450
right? So there's the very,

254
00:15:12,450 --> 00:15:16,530
very early limbic learning
that before thought

255
00:15:17,310 --> 00:15:20,490
before words, you know, this happens very,

256
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,290
very early before there's any
conscious memory for sure.

257
00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,210
Then you already have your nervous
system patterns. And then on top of that,

258
00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:32,450
you know, as you age by age, I mean two
years old, three years old, <laugh>,

259
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:35,810
then you begin to form
cognitions and thoughts.

260
00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:37,410
But the thoughts they're already,

261
00:15:37,410 --> 00:15:40,850
they're forming to make sense of what
your natural patterns already are.

262
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:45,130
So that's part of why some of what the
research looks at is it's, there's both,

263
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,570
this is why that those, when you
fill out a little quiz online,

264
00:15:49,140 --> 00:15:51,970
those are the stories that
have formed about your,

265
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,090
that you have consciously about
yourself and about relationships,

266
00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,730
which are important and interesting,

267
00:15:58,070 --> 00:16:00,850
but they're not the same thing as the
original attachment research. Well,

268
00:16:00,850 --> 00:16:04,530
and to give you an example though,
when you're saying the embodied story,

269
00:16:05,350 --> 00:16:08,290
oh yeah, I, I got distracted.
<laugh>. Go ahead <laugh>.

270
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,330
What if your embodied stories may be,

271
00:16:11,820 --> 00:16:16,810
let's say your body had learned
that too much emotional connection.

272
00:16:16,810 --> 00:16:19,250
Too much closeness, too
much neediness. For example,

273
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:24,010
if you're emotionally expressive and your
body learned that that actually pushed

274
00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:26,690
people away, or your primary
caregiver away made them shut down,

275
00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:30,570
or they get angry or they got
overwhelmed, then your body learns, oh,

276
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,210
when I get emotions again,

277
00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:34,450
I get emotional and I start
to cry and I get overwhelmed.

278
00:16:35,030 --> 00:16:37,850
I'm actually gonna lose connection
and that scares the crap outta me.

279
00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:41,490
So then my nervous system
starts to develop that belief.

280
00:16:41,830 --> 00:16:45,330
So what that means is that my body
feels threatened when I start to feel

281
00:16:45,330 --> 00:16:50,250
emotional. That feels horrible. It
feels scary. And all sirens say,

282
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,730
shut that down, shut that down.
But we don't grow up saying,

283
00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:57,210
oh my body learned this as a
young age and I'm doing this.

284
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:02,290
What our body grows up doing is
people don't like my emotions or

285
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:05,810
it's ridiculous to be emotional. You
should be able to contain your emotions.

286
00:17:05,810 --> 00:17:06,643
You're just weak.

287
00:17:06,670 --> 00:17:11,290
So we tell a story about
our body's experience

288
00:17:11,550 --> 00:17:14,690
and that story makes sense to us. So
if somebody asks us when we're older,

289
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:19,210
our conscious thought, we're usually
not so aware of the embodied experience.

290
00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:24,170
We're aware of the, I can't trust people
or people let me down. We're aware.

291
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,970
Yeah, don't, don't don't air your
dirty laundry in public. Yeah.

292
00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:30,290
Why would you air something if you reach
out for emotional support that's just

293
00:17:30,290 --> 00:17:33,410
weak, you know, fix yourself. You
know, I had to do it. You do it.

294
00:17:33,870 --> 00:17:38,850
So those are the stories you tell that
are based on your body's experience

295
00:17:38,850 --> 00:17:42,250
of threat. But what happens is you
quit actually feeling the threat.

296
00:17:42,310 --> 00:17:45,610
You don't even know it's threat because
you've learned to cut it off so easily

297
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:48,610
and so young, not easily, but
so automatically and so young,

298
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:50,760
you don't have conscious
awareness of that.

299
00:17:51,530 --> 00:17:55,520
Especially talking about the pattern
that has learned to deactivate,

300
00:17:55,610 --> 00:18:00,040
which later ends up being
called dismissing or what
Ann and I refer to as kind

301
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,640
of blue little cooler over there
on that side of the spectrum.

302
00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:08,280
And we use the spectrum on purpose and
we use colors on purpose to get the

303
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,320
pathology out of it. Actually the
original research used letters A, B, C,

304
00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:15,000
you know, so we're kind of
picking up that idea of like,

305
00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:18,200
this is just describing a tendency,

306
00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:22,280
I'm not a diagnosis that as we
begin to lean in that direction,

307
00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:25,550
it's not that we're
thinking these thoughts,

308
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:29,390
it's that we tell a story to explain
what our body is doing <laugh>.

309
00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:32,510
That our brain is really there to
just create these stories, <laugh>.

310
00:18:32,770 --> 00:18:35,790
And it's called the default mode
network. Many of you have heard that.

311
00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:40,270
That's kind of us thinking about ourselves
and that's where all the stories lie.

312
00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:43,990
And sometimes that can be good and
that we're being self-reflective and

313
00:18:43,990 --> 00:18:47,710
sometimes that stuff can go crazy.
And that's when we get anxious,

314
00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:51,630
we get depressed, we begin to ruminate,
we begin to tell stories, we begin to,

315
00:18:52,010 --> 00:18:53,870
Ann hasn't responded, she's probably dead.

316
00:18:54,010 --> 00:18:58,430
Or those stories that we fill in that
comes from, again, this early learning.

317
00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:02,030
This is why this is, goes back to the
why do you care? Yeah, I love that part.

318
00:19:02,290 --> 00:19:03,750
Why do you care? Because if you're,

319
00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,390
you can be really hard on yourself if
you think that you should be able to just

320
00:19:07,390 --> 00:19:10,430
turn this on and off. Like if
you're ruminating and like, ah,

321
00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:12,270
I know not to ruminate.
This is ridiculous.

322
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:16,670
I can't quit thinking about how
that conversation I had earlier

323
00:19:17,250 --> 00:19:20,470
and I can't keep thinking about all
I said wrong or I did wrong in that

324
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:22,430
conversation. I can't
get it outta my mind.

325
00:19:22,810 --> 00:19:25,950
And then I start getting my mad at myself
because I can't get it outta my mind.

326
00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:28,950
Oh that's, that's my favorite loop
over. Yeah, that little loop like, ah,

327
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:30,550
just stop thinking about that. Like,

328
00:19:30,550 --> 00:19:33,230
it's so important to understand that
this is not a decision you're making.

329
00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:35,430
This is your body's response to,

330
00:19:35,430 --> 00:19:39,550
I better stay aware and keep rethinking
and get it right or I'm probably gonna

331
00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:42,550
get rejected. And this is in one's body.

332
00:19:42,730 --> 00:19:47,390
And the reason that you it matters
is the more you learn about your own

333
00:19:47,790 --> 00:19:48,870
specific protection system,

334
00:19:49,650 --> 00:19:53,630
the more that you can learn ways
to soothe that or to really, uh,

335
00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:56,430
tell a story to get more of a, you know,

336
00:19:56,490 --> 00:20:01,390
an accurate story that people
aren't really rejecting us and we

337
00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:03,950
can learn to do. Even
you bring up embodiment.

338
00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:08,270
That's one reason why some of the
body focused therapies out there are

339
00:20:08,550 --> 00:20:09,340
considered so effective.

340
00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:13,630
It's like teaching you how to tune into
that bodied response and to be able to

341
00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:16,310
calm it down so that you can
then do what we really wanna do.

342
00:20:16,730 --> 00:20:18,870
And that's activate our connection system,

343
00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:21,070
our ability to really stay
connected to other people.

344
00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:25,030
Because when we are in our
protection system, it overwrites,

345
00:20:25,090 --> 00:20:28,630
we can't really feel safe enough
to connect and to stay close.

346
00:20:30,290 --> 00:20:34,230
And one of the advantages is that
when we are in that more secure state,

347
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:38,510
that it buffers us from
the stress response system.

348
00:20:38,650 --> 00:20:41,550
That's part of how it translates. I think
I did already say this, didn't I? Mm.

349
00:20:41,790 --> 00:20:42,750
A little bit. You know,

350
00:20:42,750 --> 00:20:46,710
you just talked about the
protection system and the
connection system and I love

351
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:50,200
talking about it that way. And that
when we are in the connection system,

352
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:54,880
it means that our brain is flooded with
these really feel good oxytocin and

353
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:57,160
you know, serotonin, we feel satisfied.

354
00:20:57,610 --> 00:20:59,920
We're maybe feel excited
a little dopamine.

355
00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:04,360
The neurochemical bath makes us feel
safe and open. We're more generous,

356
00:21:05,100 --> 00:21:07,120
but it also protects us from stress.

357
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:12,080
So we're more likely to more
accurately respond to and not texting

358
00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:13,013
me.

359
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,640
I will have other ideas about what that
could be when I'm in that more secure

360
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,120
state. So part of why the
another, this is a why,

361
00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:25,440
why do we care is because the more we can
develop our secure sense of ourselves,

362
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,440
regardless of your history or regardless
of your therapy or regardless of your

363
00:21:29,860 --> 00:21:31,400
PhD, it doesn't matter.

364
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,960
But the more that we can develop that
secure system and know how to get back

365
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,360
there when we're not feeling it,

366
00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:42,800
it buffers us from this chronic stress
that's going on in our protection system,

367
00:21:43,250 --> 00:21:47,800
which then translates into all kinds of
wonderful things like better sleep, um,

368
00:21:47,820 --> 00:21:51,880
better skin <laugh>, better
nails, <laugh>, uh, no,

369
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,440
but really like cardiovascular
health, immunity, even longevity.

370
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,780
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374
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what in the heck is Mud Water
<laugh>? So Mud water is a drink.

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A lot of people use it
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but it has been so fun to have kind
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386
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391
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So my favorite is cacao and
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You can turn it into a tea. They
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443
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dermatologist. Just go on your app,
it's on your, it'll be on your phone,

444
00:26:44,430 --> 00:26:48,960
it's free and you can put in anything
that you're looking for and you will find

445
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,240
it. Not only do they tell you whether
or not they take your insurance,

446
00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:55,040
but they'll even tell you what it
costs if you don't have insurance.

447
00:26:55,710 --> 00:27:00,400
That alone was just totally sold me
that. That transparency is wonderful.

448
00:27:01,110 --> 00:27:05,840
There's also all the reviews,
real patients, not bots.
You get actual reviews,

449
00:27:06,110 --> 00:27:10,520
basically like being referred by friends
in a way. So highly recommend this.

450
00:27:10,780 --> 00:27:15,680
Go to zocdoc.com/tu, download
the Zocdoc app for free,

451
00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:18,560
then find and book a
top rated doctor today.

452
00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:22,200
That's zocdoc.com/to.

453
00:27:23,070 --> 00:27:25,480
I've used it for psychiatrists.

454
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,600
It has been so hard to find a psychiatrist
that's actually taking patients.

455
00:27:30,540 --> 00:27:31,960
And with Zocdoc,

456
00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:36,480
I've been recommending it to many people
and I use it specifically to help me

457
00:27:37,530 --> 00:27:42,040
refer and get good psychiatrists
that are actually taking patients.

458
00:27:42,620 --> 00:27:46,600
And you can connect them through your
insurance, through the client's insurance,

459
00:27:47,170 --> 00:27:50,920
which is just so, so valuable. So again,

460
00:27:50,980 --> 00:27:54,920
that's zocdoc.com/tu and
download the free app.

461
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:58,480
You will not be disappointed.
It's super useful.

462
00:27:58,550 --> 00:28:02,080
Very handy for anything you can imagine.
Any doctor that you can imagine.

463
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:07,640
Any condition that you can imagine
your toes hurt, your skin is itchy.

464
00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:11,360
You need a dermatologist, you need a
psychiatrist, you need a social worker.

465
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:14,400
Whatever you need right there
at your fingertips. Okay,

466
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,680
now people understand what
it is, why it's important,

467
00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:18,400
where do we wanna direct them?

468
00:28:18,430 --> 00:28:22,440
Like what kinds of things should we point
them to is introductory things to do

469
00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:24,720
to continue this, uh, exploration.

470
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:27,080
We keep talking about
protection and connection.

471
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:32,120
It'd be interesting to kind of think
of the ways that your system is set up

472
00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:35,240
about what stresses you.
So to question yourself,

473
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:38,560
one of the things to do is to ask.
Instead of saying, this is just me.

474
00:28:38,710 --> 00:28:41,880
What are the four things you say? Describe
your personality in a relationship.

475
00:28:42,190 --> 00:28:45,320
Instead of just saying, I'm just an
independent person, I don't want any help.

476
00:28:45,540 --> 00:28:47,920
Or I really like committees. You know,

477
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:52,040
I don't like to make a decision
without having to committee right now.

478
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,160
That one you're not pointing
at me. <laugh>. That one you,

479
00:28:54,190 --> 00:28:56,240
that one you're pointing
at yourself. Absolutely.

480
00:28:56,980 --> 00:28:59,440
If you have those kind
of repetitive dynamics,

481
00:28:59,550 --> 00:29:02,440
it's a good idea to stop and
think where does this come from?

482
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:07,520
Because what is the threat under that?
What is the worry? Like if for me,

483
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:09,680
I'm trying to make a decision now,
if you didn't have a committee,

484
00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:10,613
if I didn't have committee,

485
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,920
somebody in the room is gonna
have to go eat dinner somewhere.

486
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,600
They're disappointed at. They're
gonna be disappointed. Right? But see,

487
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680
that's the embedded Exactly
right. That's the embedded fear.

488
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:23,760
That's the embedded fear. So okay,
but so somebody's disappointed.

489
00:29:23,820 --> 00:29:26,440
And then what if you stop and go,
somebody's gonna be disappointed.

490
00:29:26,540 --> 00:29:27,640
Why is that so hard?

491
00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:32,160
Why is it hard to imagine your child
or your friend being disappointed?

492
00:29:32,740 --> 00:29:35,040
And as I say that, think
about your nervous system.

493
00:29:35,210 --> 00:29:37,880
Don't just think about your brain,
don't think about your thoughts.

494
00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:41,480
Think about what feels em
bodily threatening to you.

495
00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:46,240
If somebody's disappointed, how has
disappointed impacted you in your life?

496
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:50,000
Has other people that are important
to you. When they get disappointed,

497
00:29:50,860 --> 00:29:54,000
how has it impacted you? What is
the fear? Are they gonna disappear?

498
00:29:54,460 --> 00:29:55,720
Are they gonna get overwhelmed?

499
00:29:56,590 --> 00:30:00,740
Those are really important pieces
of information to be curious about.

500
00:30:01,290 --> 00:30:03,940
Another example will be, do you
take control in every situation?

501
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,380
Do you like have to be the one? Do you
have to be the one to pay the check?

502
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,900
Do you have to be the one to be
in charge instead of just saying,

503
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,300
I'm just got this personality.
That's just great at being in charge.

504
00:30:13,870 --> 00:30:17,780
These turn out to be strengths, but our
strengths usually have the other side.

505
00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:19,820
What happens if you're not in charge?

506
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,420
Do you then start feeling your nervous
system, get activated and nervous,

507
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,700
pay attention to your nervous system.

508
00:30:26,830 --> 00:30:29,010
So Anne's immediate
thought was disappointment.

509
00:30:29,390 --> 00:30:32,490
But your reason to use a committee
might have a little bit of a different

510
00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:36,420
flavor. Like it might be,
but if I say what I want,

511
00:30:36,580 --> 00:30:37,740
then I'm more exposed.

512
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,900
And if I put a flag in the ground and
say this is who I am and what I think

513
00:30:43,570 --> 00:30:47,300
that could feel vulnerable for Anne's
first thought was about disappointing

514
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:49,940
someone. But this is where
it gets fun and interesting.

515
00:30:50,290 --> 00:30:54,980
Like for me to not know what I
think feels threatening. Hmm.

516
00:30:55,390 --> 00:30:56,860
Right. To be kind of,

517
00:30:56,860 --> 00:31:00,420
to be over influenced by the committee
is threatening to you to be like,

518
00:31:00,460 --> 00:31:02,420
I need to know what I'm thinking.
I'm not gonna be overly,

519
00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:04,180
I wanna know what I'm
thinking before I like,

520
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,460
but still there's a threat there
versus somebody else. Say who?

521
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,140
Who does use the committee? Yeah.

522
00:31:09,140 --> 00:31:11,540
That was just the first thought I had was
like, if you put a flag in the ground,

523
00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:14,220
it's really scary. And also if you know,

524
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:15,700
we can keep taking this deeper and deeper.

525
00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:20,940
Sometimes this goes to grief
all the ways that we've had to

526
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,980
not know our own minds or
declare ourselves in some way.

527
00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:30,940
Like this is not small stuff and this
is not something you can just turn on or

528
00:31:30,940 --> 00:31:33,100
turn off. This is a process.

529
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,900
So another just example of
things to do would be to really

530
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:42,700
cultivate curiosity about
how you relate and how

531
00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:46,740
others relate to you and your history.
Like how you got to be where you are now.

532
00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:50,980
'cause one of the signs of security
is you have a real free range of like

533
00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:53,660
wondering about these things and you
kind of have an interest in it because it

534
00:31:53,660 --> 00:31:56,900
really matters. So if you're somebody
that's like, the past is the past,

535
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,180
it doesn't matter, that's
actually a sign. And again,

536
00:32:00,350 --> 00:32:02,660
we're not confabulating
everything into like,

537
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:03,820
not everything is about attachment.

538
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,140
You can also be depressed or have
obsessive thoughts or you know,

539
00:32:07,140 --> 00:32:10,140
there's lots of diagnoses that
aren't even associated with this.

540
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,740
But right now we're just talking
about attachment. So you know,

541
00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:16,140
like when you're brushing off, like
I'll give you something to cry about.

542
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,260
You know, there, there's, you know,

543
00:32:17,260 --> 00:32:21,660
just those things that are not
introspective but are as a matter of fact

544
00:32:21,770 --> 00:32:26,300
devaluing and dismissing of the process
of wondering about things. You know,

545
00:32:26,340 --> 00:32:28,420
a lot of times you might say,
uh, they're overanalyzing,

546
00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:32,820
they're overthinking it, that kind of
stuff. Well those are all little signals.

547
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,740
And what we would invite you to do is
to get more curious and to begin to

548
00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:41,570
actually pay attention to what the inner
world of your other person and your

549
00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:43,450
inner world. And like Anne said,

550
00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:45,810
that like at sometimes as we
begin to shift how we think,

551
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,090
then we can feel our
heart rate go up <laugh>.

552
00:32:48,390 --> 00:32:51,370
Or even maybe you feel your defense
go up even more. Like, that's stupid,

553
00:32:51,910 --> 00:32:55,410
that's a waste of time. Why go back to
the past? Well, okay, now you're fight.

554
00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:57,850
Now there's some fight there.
It's like what we're saying,

555
00:32:58,150 --> 00:33:03,050
the science says is that a coherent
narrative is one of the signs of security.

556
00:33:03,150 --> 00:33:06,570
It doesn't cause it, but it just means
it's a sign of neural integration.

557
00:33:06,570 --> 00:33:10,770
It's a sign of that connection system
and the protection system balancing.

558
00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:16,490
So how you get a coherent narrative
is that you begin to piece things

559
00:33:16,690 --> 00:33:18,490
together and be curious
and wonder about them.

560
00:33:18,870 --> 00:33:21,770
So that what you mean
by coherent narrative,

561
00:33:22,610 --> 00:33:27,130
a coherent narrative is a story that
makes sense on the deepest level that

562
00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:30,010
includes your body. It doesn't just,
it's just not your head, right?

563
00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:32,330
If you just tell yourself, I'm
independent and I know who I am,

564
00:33:33,550 --> 00:33:35,210
that's not a coherent,
yeah, that's not coherence,

565
00:33:35,210 --> 00:33:37,730
that's not coherent because
nobody's independent. In fact,

566
00:33:37,730 --> 00:33:39,170
the more independent you think you are,

567
00:33:39,590 --> 00:33:43,370
likely the more anxious you are and
you're shut down to that anxiety.

568
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,490
It's crazy though. We're kind of saying
like the more certain you are <laugh>,

569
00:33:47,790 --> 00:33:50,930
the more of a problem it is. Well it's,
it's actually kind of true on any level,

570
00:33:50,930 --> 00:33:53,650
right? The more, if you're
completely uncertain or completely,

571
00:33:53,670 --> 00:33:58,370
if you're in either extreme of I don't
have any earthly idea what I'm doing

572
00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:02,370
or I absolutely know what I'm
doing, that's a sign of defense.

573
00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:04,650
Because when we're in
our protection system,

574
00:34:04,650 --> 00:34:09,410
there are certain patterns
of our protection system
that are inherently part of

575
00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:11,930
being alive and surviving as a mammal.

576
00:34:12,270 --> 00:34:16,450
And one of them is you have to make really
quick decisions. If you're in threat,

577
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:18,410
you can't debate, you can't be curious,

578
00:34:18,630 --> 00:34:20,770
you can't wonder why the
hell somebody's chasing you.

579
00:34:20,830 --> 00:34:24,450
I'm wondering if he's good or bad.
You just run. It's just instinctual.

580
00:34:24,990 --> 00:34:29,610
So if you are in a very concrete
black and white, it's good,

581
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,250
it's bad, it's right, it's
wrong. And it's very clear.

582
00:34:33,720 --> 00:34:37,730
There's a good chance that that's your
protective system moving a little too

583
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,730
fast and clarifying a two black and white.

584
00:34:41,150 --> 00:34:44,410
So one of the signs that you're more in
your connection system is that you have

585
00:34:44,410 --> 00:34:47,250
curiosity. Why is it so important
for me to be independent?

586
00:34:47,250 --> 00:34:49,810
Like what would happen if
I had to rely on somebody?

587
00:34:50,110 --> 00:34:53,850
So if you bring curiosity to these
parts of your personality that you say,

588
00:34:53,850 --> 00:34:56,970
this is me and you're gonna
answer first. Well of course,

589
00:34:57,130 --> 00:35:00,730
'cause I was raised to be secure,
right? But flip that on its head.

590
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,250
What is so threatening? So if
you say, I'm so independent,

591
00:35:04,310 --> 00:35:09,010
say what is so threatening to
your body If you let yourself feel

592
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,750
your dependence and if
you really feel that,

593
00:35:14,250 --> 00:35:16,990
and those of you out there might be
going, oh, shut up. That does, you know,

594
00:35:17,130 --> 00:35:19,750
but that little threat in your
body when you consider it,

595
00:35:20,090 --> 00:35:21,670
that's your nervous system talking to you.

596
00:35:21,690 --> 00:35:25,470
And that's what we suggest you listen
to. Yeah, that's that tuning in. And,

597
00:35:25,470 --> 00:35:30,030
and I love that you didn't get into
the different ways that we activate

598
00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:33,990
because I think what's just important
right now is that we're either like,

599
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:38,880
just like you said, that we're either in
our connection system, which generally,

600
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:43,400
yeah, curiosity is a great sign that
you're there. Wonderment, warmth,

601
00:35:43,730 --> 00:35:47,120
especially like warmth for yourself.
Like compassion, like God, this is hard.

602
00:35:47,860 --> 00:35:49,880
Or somebody's doing
their thing that they do,

603
00:35:50,110 --> 00:35:54,080
that we can see them with care and
love and curiosity and compassion.

604
00:35:54,660 --> 00:35:57,520
That's all good stuff that we want
more of. And that means you're in your,

605
00:35:57,550 --> 00:35:58,960
what we would call the green zone.

606
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,660
And then all you need to know is like
you're either there or you're not.

607
00:36:04,340 --> 00:36:07,040
And when you're not, it's all those
other things that you were saying.

608
00:36:07,180 --> 00:36:10,520
And I think that's easier than somebody
trying to figure out which way that they

609
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:11,640
have activated. And,

610
00:36:11,860 --> 00:36:15,400
and other podcasts we go into a lot
of detail about the different ways.

611
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,720
Our nervous system, it doesn't have a
lot of moves, it only has a few moves,

612
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:19,270
<laugh>,

613
00:36:19,270 --> 00:36:23,560
then it becomes easy to figure out what
move you make and then how to get back

614
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,393
to green.

615
00:36:24,580 --> 00:36:28,880
So we will be linking a bunch of other
shows episodes for those of you that want

616
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,570
more. We're trying to keep it simple
and high level. But I, I just,

617
00:36:33,090 --> 00:36:35,450
I love that that being the first
thing, right? Like you're either,

618
00:36:35,670 --> 00:36:39,850
are you in your protection system or
in your connection system and really

619
00:36:40,090 --> 00:36:42,970
learning your own signs. And both of
those are about attachment, right?

620
00:36:42,970 --> 00:36:47,010
Like if you're in your protection system,
it may be that you need to be like,

621
00:36:47,010 --> 00:36:51,930
if you feel rigid and you feel it may
be that you are in a culture that is

622
00:36:51,930 --> 00:36:55,930
rejecting, it may be that the government
around you is trying to suppress you.

623
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,090
Yeah. You're being persecuted,
right? By the government, right?

624
00:36:59,090 --> 00:36:59,923
Because of your gender.

625
00:37:00,350 --> 00:37:05,330
So if you have been brought up throughout
your life in a way that leaves you in

626
00:37:05,330 --> 00:37:07,290
an unsafe, the environment,

627
00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:10,650
the system that you're in
really literally is threatening,

628
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,210
then the system that you're in,

629
00:37:13,230 --> 00:37:16,970
the attachment relationship that you
have and how you protect yourself and how

630
00:37:16,970 --> 00:37:20,370
you connect is probably the
perfect adaptation for you.

631
00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:24,650
So it's really important to kind of
not think of these things as negative,

632
00:37:24,740 --> 00:37:28,130
right? Like we're gonna, if we have
to rely on our protection system.

633
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:32,810
But the key is what we're recommending
is no matter what that you're aware of

634
00:37:32,810 --> 00:37:32,930
it.

635
00:37:32,930 --> 00:37:36,330
Because if you live in that and you're
not aware that you're in your protection

636
00:37:36,330 --> 00:37:39,040
system, then it's such
a disservice to you.

637
00:37:39,830 --> 00:37:42,640
Does that make sense to you what I'm
saying? Oh my gosh, it totally does.

638
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,600
And I'm so happy that you brought up
about the systems and we can tie that

639
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,280
directly back to this thing about
that we can't consciously see it.

640
00:37:51,340 --> 00:37:53,600
So if you're in a culture that you,

641
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,480
the color of your skin makes
you a target, for example.

642
00:37:57,700 --> 00:37:59,520
So post-colonialism racism,

643
00:38:00,630 --> 00:38:04,560
just being in a racist
society is it's own trauma.

644
00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:09,160
But because it's not identified as that
and it's just again seen as normal,

645
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:12,960
what typically will happen is that we
would internalize that and make it about

646
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:13,793
ourselves.

647
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:17,480
And so part of what's important about
this is to begin to really name and

648
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,600
identify some of the traumas and
the experience of being overlooked,

649
00:38:21,660 --> 00:38:26,520
of being devalued of all of these things
that often are unnamed and maybe even

650
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,920
unrecognized because they're just
cinnamon in the cinnamon roll.

651
00:38:29,990 --> 00:38:33,720
It's just the way it is, the
way society is, but it's wrong.

652
00:38:34,180 --> 00:38:36,720
And that's all, all been absorbed
into your nervous system.

653
00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:41,680
So part of this being curious
is why do I feel bad about,

654
00:38:42,460 --> 00:38:42,780
you know,

655
00:38:42,780 --> 00:38:47,520
my gender expression or
how my hair looks to really

656
00:38:47,780 --> 00:38:48,613
get into that.

657
00:38:48,700 --> 00:38:52,240
So being curious about it as a way
again of having more compassion and

658
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,880
protection for your like
healthy protection for yourself.

659
00:38:55,220 --> 00:38:57,760
Not internalizing negative
cultural messages.

660
00:38:58,460 --> 00:39:00,840
So this is true like on the
individual level mm-hmm.

661
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,600
<affirmative> and on the
societal level, I love that.

662
00:39:02,660 --> 00:39:05,440
And that actually is
what can be so hopeful.

663
00:39:05,900 --> 00:39:10,800
The reason we love doing this podcast
is this is not just about explaining who

664
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,840
you are, it's about discovering for
all of us. We're keep discovering,

665
00:39:14,850 --> 00:39:16,040
we're discovering with you.

666
00:39:16,460 --> 00:39:20,600
But as we have the curiosity about
what we feel and why we feel it,

667
00:39:21,140 --> 00:39:23,400
we have more agency,
it's about having agency,

668
00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,840
the security is about how
we relate in our community.

669
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,760
And as we develop the ability to feel
more secure in ourselves and to use these

670
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:33,400
protection systems with more awareness,

671
00:39:33,870 --> 00:39:35,800
even if you're highly in
your protection system,

672
00:39:35,860 --> 00:39:40,840
if you're aware of it and you're allowing
yourself to feel connected to yourself

673
00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:44,760
and other people with this awareness,
you're working in a secure way,

674
00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:49,840
you are working in a secure related
position. So even if we're in threat,

675
00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:53,600
that doesn't mean that we've popped
out of the green zone, you know?

676
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,280
And we've done a lot of
neurobiology on these podcasts,

677
00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:57,680
so we won't go into that right now.

678
00:39:57,780 --> 00:40:00,680
But just that what you're
saying is being aware,

679
00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:02,880
like if I'm aware that I'm defensive,

680
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:08,240
it means that that some of the top of
my mind is still active and like I still

681
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:09,073
have some choice.

682
00:40:09,300 --> 00:40:12,920
Am I gonna behave defensively or just
notice I'm defensive and try not to,

683
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,960
or identify what part of me is feeling
attacked or what's the threat like,

684
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:21,760
in other words, the activation of
the wanting to protect ourselves.

685
00:40:21,950 --> 00:40:25,000
That in and of itself isn't the
thing that pops us out of the green.

686
00:40:25,790 --> 00:40:28,440
It's losing our thinking
and losing our heart.

687
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:32,600
Like when we're protecting ourselves,
we're not connected like to ourselves.

688
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,360
They go against each other. Mm-hmm.
<affirmative>. That's right.

689
00:40:34,430 --> 00:40:39,160
It's a self protection, which means that
yeah, we, we overestimate what we know.

690
00:40:39,460 --> 00:40:43,360
It leads to this whole cascade
of kind of individually focused

691
00:40:44,470 --> 00:40:48,040
orientation that is actually distorted.
And that's a whole other thing,

692
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:49,520
<laugh> that we won't get into today.

693
00:40:49,860 --> 00:40:51,880
But literally when we're
in our protection system,

694
00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:57,040
the information coming into our bodies
is actually distorted because of our

695
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,200
threat response, right?

696
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,040
So becoming aware of our threat
response and our protection system,

697
00:41:02,170 --> 00:41:05,840
we're already getting a more clear
narrative. I'm in my protection system.

698
00:41:06,340 --> 00:41:09,000
And what's really important
about this is also relationship.

699
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:09,920
And I know we should wrap,

700
00:41:10,380 --> 00:41:14,040
but what's also important about that is
that it's not only our connections to

701
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,440
ourself, it's connections to other people.

702
00:41:15,540 --> 00:41:18,240
If we're not aware that we're in our
protective system, what are we gonna do?

703
00:41:18,410 --> 00:41:21,880
We're gonna project that on everyone
around us. We're gonna blame,

704
00:41:21,930 --> 00:41:24,800
we're gonna defend, we're gonna
criticize, we're gonna feel criticized,

705
00:41:24,810 --> 00:41:29,440
we're gonna feel righteous, we're gonna
see them as needy or put ourselves down.

706
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:31,840
And when we really get aware, oh wait,

707
00:41:31,860 --> 00:41:35,440
our protection system makes us shut
down emotionally when the other person's

708
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,200
upset, it's our protection system.

709
00:41:37,500 --> 00:41:40,480
And so therefore it makes sense that
the other person is a little distressed

710
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,920
about that rather than you
eye roll them or vice versa.

711
00:41:43,420 --> 00:41:46,800
So what we're an advocating
for is that curiosity,

712
00:41:46,830 --> 00:41:50,400
that exploration and the
openness, this is non shaming.

713
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,960
This is like you're gonna be able to
have conversations with your friends,

714
00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,480
with your partner, with your child
that says, I'm just activated.

715
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,360
Rather than you're being blank. Like
when you can talk about yourself first,

716
00:42:03,180 --> 00:42:05,400
rather than identifying
the other person first,

717
00:42:05,940 --> 00:42:09,640
you're already more in the green secure
way of relating with other people

718
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,770
because you're able to have that
self-reflection. That's great.

719
00:42:13,770 --> 00:42:18,170
That's another walkaway tool is that
as you get fired up a little bit,

720
00:42:18,190 --> 00:42:21,130
one you're noticing, but then
Anne's move that she just said,

721
00:42:21,130 --> 00:42:23,410
which was rather than
going just the lazy way,

722
00:42:23,650 --> 00:42:26,010
<laugh> the natural way is assume
the other person's done something.

723
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:28,970
What we're saying is let's
band together <laugh>.

724
00:42:29,270 --> 00:42:32,450
And as we begin to notice a
spike in some sort of protection,

725
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,050
that we go inward first make the
first move inward. Like, huh,

726
00:42:36,190 --> 00:42:40,700
what's going on with me? Huh? I
just, oh all of a sudden my stomach.

727
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:41,673
You know what I'm saying?

728
00:42:41,810 --> 00:42:46,380
Just that move alone is gonna help you
keep your higher functioning mind going

729
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,580
and it'll give you a better
chance of staying in the green.

730
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,780
So today we're not gonna go in all the
details of which you mentioned before

731
00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:58,980
about what are our more predictable
ways of protecting ourselves.

732
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,500
But the good news is that as humans
we are very predictable and we develop

733
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,940
predictable patterns that can
be more easily recognized.

734
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,220
We are extremely complex beings,
but when you break it down,

735
00:43:09,220 --> 00:43:12,820
because we all have our nervous systems
and our nervous systems can only do

736
00:43:12,820 --> 00:43:14,620
predictable ways of engagement,

737
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,800
you can actually learn to recognize
things in your system quite

738
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,280
readily and much more easily.
And your partner system, oh,

739
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,120
you can see how they're lit up.
Absolutely. So learning about this,

740
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:28,640
learning about your own system,

741
00:43:28,940 --> 00:43:33,240
do I go upregulated more frequently when
I feel threat or do I go down and cut

742
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:34,240
off and disappear?

743
00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:38,680
Or do I need to shut down emotions or
can I not stop being in my emotions?

744
00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:41,040
And so one of the things we'd suggest is,

745
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,480
is tune into some of the podcasts that
we have that will be listed in the show

746
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:49,400
notes that will go into much more
detail about the particular ways,

747
00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:52,220
our nervous system response and you know,

748
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:53,780
whether it be our podcasts or you know,

749
00:43:53,780 --> 00:43:56,580
you can learn about attachment almost
all over the place this point. Oh,

750
00:43:56,580 --> 00:43:57,240
that's true, that's true this.

751
00:43:57,240 --> 00:44:01,660
But I will say on our behalf that we
have for years now been studying, um,

752
00:44:01,850 --> 00:44:05,980
that in relational neurobiology
and all the more recent findings.

753
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,540
And our job here is to make the
research apply clinically and apply

754
00:44:11,540 --> 00:44:14,580
to your daily life. And if you have
been listening from the beginning,

755
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,940
you may have noticed that even how we
talk about it changes as we keep learning.

756
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,980
So podcasts are great, there's
so many, uh, resources out there.

757
00:44:22,530 --> 00:44:26,620
Look in the show notes, go to
therapist uncensored.com/episodes.

758
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:29,620
I don't remember what this episode
number's gonna be, I wish I had it.

759
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,560
But you can also just put in the, um,

760
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:35,960
in the search term attachment or you
can put in, uh, relational neurobiology,

761
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,880
you know, or you can put it like you can
search for anything. So that's great.

762
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:41,640
Yeah, I think you can search for
blue, red, and green I think on there.

763
00:44:41,660 --> 00:44:44,000
And you're gonna get <laugh>. Yeah, yeah.

764
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,400
Check out the ones on the
modern attachment spectrum.
I think those, for sure,

765
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,800
the later ones are gonna incorporate
all the new stuff that we've learned.

766
00:44:51,460 --> 00:44:53,360
And if it says modern attachment,

767
00:44:53,870 --> 00:44:55,960
then we're probably really
focusing on that kind of stuff.

768
00:44:56,140 --> 00:45:00,000
And then also anything about the
spectrum really focuses on this as well.

769
00:45:00,910 --> 00:45:02,600
Okay. And if you're still listening,

770
00:45:02,620 --> 00:45:06,600
we hope that that means that you have
found it interesting or valuable in some

771
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,000
way. And if that's the case, we
really, the way they help us the most,

772
00:45:10,550 --> 00:45:11,800
there's a couple of ways.

773
00:45:12,100 --> 00:45:16,440
One is to leave us a review on your
podcast player that helps us be

774
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:21,480
discoverable. We read them all and we
really appreciate every one of them.

775
00:45:22,220 --> 00:45:27,160
The other is you could join in, we
have a special online community.

776
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:31,760
We call them their, our, our neuro nerd
group for our neuro nerds. That's right.

777
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:36,000
Yeah. That's at therapist
uncensored.com/join.

778
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,700
And for as little as $5 a
month, you get all kinds of, uh,

779
00:45:40,670 --> 00:45:44,410
extras including an ad free feed,
which is awesome. But also, you know,

780
00:45:44,410 --> 00:45:47,090
we do all kinds of things. Just,
I may as well mention some of,

781
00:45:47,090 --> 00:45:51,970
I'm saying like reading groups and often
the authors themselves will come in

782
00:45:51,970 --> 00:45:53,730
at the end and answer
questions. Not always.

783
00:45:54,340 --> 00:45:58,770
We've had some of the authors and the
original researchers do direct teaching.

784
00:45:59,340 --> 00:46:02,050
We've led study groups
before. They're peer groups.

785
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,690
There's all kinds of things that just
kind of come up now and then. So yeah,

786
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,930
join in. We would love to have you,

787
00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:10,770
not to mention you help get this podcast
far and wide to those who might not

788
00:46:10,770 --> 00:46:14,890
otherwise get it by supporting us.
So well, and while we're saying it,

789
00:46:14,910 --> 00:46:19,410
we also give a large portion of our
corporate, like all the ad sales,

790
00:46:20,190 --> 00:46:24,490
we donate that to help mental
health access for those
traditionally left behind.

791
00:46:24,790 --> 00:46:29,210
So we're very happy about that and you
guys are, help us do that. All right,

792
00:46:29,210 --> 00:46:31,810
thanks for joining us and
we'll see you around the bid.

793
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:38,970
Therapist.

794
00:46:38,970 --> 00:46:41,450
Uncensored is Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

795
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,010
This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.