Episode 95 - The History of Cannibalism: Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>Hello everyone.

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<v Speaker 1>And welcome back to another episode of the Lunix radio hour podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Abby Brinker.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm here with Alan koan.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello.

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<v Speaker 1>And today we are talking about the very broad, very sprawling history of human cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Everyone's favorite topic,

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<v Speaker 1>Fascinating to me, definite, I think a taboo in certain parts of the world, including the us.

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<v Speaker 1>So it was a

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<v Speaker 2>Bit taboo in the Brer household.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, sure.

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm gonna prepare everybody now.

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<v Speaker 1>This is going to be our longest series ever

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<v Speaker 2>To date so far.

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<v Speaker 2>You just wait till we do our multi-part series on the history of Diablo.

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<v Speaker 2><laugh> God,

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<v Speaker 1>And it's going to include new episode formats.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's going to be a few history episodes focusing on the history of cannibalism, because again, it's incredibly vast what actually sparked us to do the topic of cannibalism right now is that someone we know

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<v Speaker 2>Desperation after the snowstorm,

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<v Speaker 1>Someone we know reach out to us more will be revealed soon about this reached out to us about wanting to do a really involved, deep dive into a very specific sub genre of cannibalism film.

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<v Speaker 1>And it is a sub genre that I am so excited about.

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<v Speaker 1>So that kind of prompted this.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's gonna be a new format where we bring this guest on and we talk, you know, again in a really involved way about out this very specific sub genre, but we didn't want to do that right.

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<v Speaker 1>Without of course bringing you the history of cannibalism, which is like we said, a big boy,

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<v Speaker 2>Some might say it's a lot to

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<v Speaker 1>Swallow.

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<v Speaker 1><laugh> there you go.

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<v Speaker 1>And then of course, we're going to close things out with cannibalism stories on lunatic's library.

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<v Speaker 1>So buck, because at the end of four or five weeks, you're gonna have everything in your brain that you ever needed and didn't wanna know about human cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>All

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So enough chewing the fat let's get on with this.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, there we go.

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<v Speaker 1>Very good.

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<v Speaker 1>First of all, I wanna say that we are not here to judge.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna talk about this, but there are many complex reasons that cannibalism occurs, right?

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<v Speaker 1>It's not all serial killers in some societies, it's like a very normal and spiritual practice.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a very complex history of discrimination and other things that go with it.

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<v Speaker 1>So we are open mind, open hearts coming into this topic.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we we're pro cannibalism around here.

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<v Speaker 2>Apparently

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<v Speaker 1>Let's say we're pro Cann wisdom.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying open mind, open hearts.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna try to bend you the way that you think about this as we go.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think I'll be successful.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's, that's the cannibal motto, open mind, open hearts.

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<v Speaker 2><laugh>

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, content warning.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, we are going to talk about some graphic themes.

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<v Speaker 1>We are going to talk about people, eating people.

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<v Speaker 1>What<laugh>, um, some of these reports, right, are believed to be historically accurate that we're gonna cover.

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<v Speaker 1>And some are believed to be perpetuated as a way for Westerners to paint indigenous cultures as primitive.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna discuss that a bit as we, well, I also wanna warn that the history of cannibalism is again, not one fluid story.

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<v Speaker 1>Every continent in region pretty much has its own history with it, every continent pretty much.

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<v Speaker 1>And in some cases, many different practices right.

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<v Speaker 1>Exists within regions.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's very nuanced, but we're gonna do our best to represent these things as accurately as we can.

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<v Speaker 1>So again, we're gonna try to be as extensive as possible without being too dry, but there's really good Wikipedia pages that list like all of the incidents of known cannibalism throughout history.

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<v Speaker 1>And obviously we're not gonna cover every single incident that has ever happened.

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<v Speaker 1>But if you're interested in, in that sort of list, which is usually really interesting to me, I definitely suggest that you go check that out.

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<v Speaker 1>And before we dive into the sources, which is gonna take me a full 10 minutes to read, I just wanna say special, thanks to Betsy hilted for research, help on this one.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna, and how this is gonna work.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna say today's, I'm gonna say the sources now in this first episode, and they're gonna apply the throughout the whole history, but just so you guys know these are the sources for the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>So the sources for this topic, a Ted ed video, a brief history of cannibalism, a national geographic article cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>The ultimate taboo is surprisingly common by Simon Waral, an origin of everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Video on the history of cannibalism, a VX article by Phil Edwards, an academic paper by Bart, wage makers, incest, and infanticide and cannibalism anti-Christian amputations in the Roman empire, a documentary from 2001, the real life Hannibal lectures, a piece in the laughs quarterly by best love joy, a brief history of medical cannibalism, a Smith Sonian magazine article by Sarah Everetts.

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<v Speaker 1>Europe's hypocritical history of cannibalism, a complex article by Carla Rodriguez on army hammer, a quartz article by CRI petrol cannibalism, a perfectly natural history by bill shut, which is a book, a non-fiction book that, that I read history to com article 10, things you should know about the Donner party by Evan, Andrews Wikipedia, and an HBO documentary called thought crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>In the case of the cannibal cop, there you go for a little preview of what's to come meet.

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<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna cover everything from the earliest evidence of cannibalism millions of years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>To, as I just said, the cannibal cop in New York, right?

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<v Speaker 1>So we're really gonna kind of cannibal cop.

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<v Speaker 1>You never heard of the cannibal cop.

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<v Speaker 1>Who's the cannibal cop.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh.

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<v Speaker 1>When I first moved to New York, it was like this huge case.

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<v Speaker 1>And it really like scared me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a cannibal.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it it's complicated, but yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Whoa.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, so we'll talk about that as we get there in the timeline of history, but it's gonna be, I

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<v Speaker 2>Don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a good starting point.

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<v Speaker 1><laugh>, let's start with the cannibal cuff and let's work our way backwards.

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<v Speaker 1>So before we get into any of that, we should define cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>Cannibalism is the act of consuming.

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<v Speaker 1>Another are individual of the same species as food.

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<v Speaker 1>There are many nuances here and some debate among scholars.

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<v Speaker 1>So for example, is eating the placenta after birth, a form of auto cannibalism,

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<v Speaker 2>Whoa,

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna do our best to navigate the topic again, with our limited scientific training<laugh> uh, but today we are focusing specifically on human cannibalism, but I didn't realize how common this was an animal species beyond just black widow spiders and praying mantis, which are kind of like known for cannibalism more than 1500 species of animals have been identified by scientists as exhibiting cannibalistic behavior.

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<v Speaker 1>That

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<v Speaker 2>May seem like a big number, but I'm assuming that also includes insects.

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<v Speaker 2>Just take a look at Beatles.

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<v Speaker 2>There are over 400,000 different species of beetles.

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<v Speaker 2>Holy We love it's a lot, a lot of beetles, right?

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<v Speaker 1>400,000 species of beetles.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>It's way too many.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, no, it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's just over I'll

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<v Speaker 2>To think about that.

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<v Speaker 2>No, cause this is a judgment free zone.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what you said earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all inclusive.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, if it was 1500 different species of mammals, that might be a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not, it definitely includes insects.

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<v Speaker 1>So, you know, but it also includes like reptiles and other things.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the overall grand scheme, mm-hmm<affirmative> cannibalism is drastically in the minority of species.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Well that's good context.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course like animal cannibalism is also exasperated as we see in humans when there's famine or drought or other shortages of food.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just trying to think like, yeah, it's it, you're the, a whole conversation about eating the placenta was interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>So after Arthur pods or anything with an exoskeleton sheds their shell, mm-hmm<affirmative>, they'll often eat the shell because well, they, they just do, you know, that's, it's calories, it's protein.

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<v Speaker 2>It's whatever the hell the shell is made out of.

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<v Speaker 2>But is that auto Cann,

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Probably

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<v Speaker 2>Who, who can say when we think of cannibalism, at least when I think of cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Sorry, not trying to project onto you Uhhuh.

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<v Speaker 2>I think of killing something in order to consume it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's an important point to make, we're about to define all these different types of cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>That being said, cannibalism is not the same thing as murder.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>And so in some cultures there are, there's like fery ritualistic cannibalism where after somebody dies, naturally the tribe eats their body as a way to honor that person's death.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure.

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<v Speaker 1>So it is not only killing somebody to eat them, but that is a part of the history that we'll talk

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<v Speaker 2>About.

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<v Speaker 2>As soon as I said, killing, I realize that's also unfair.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I picture it as doing injury.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it doesn't have to result in death.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> cause you know, we've yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You know what I'm thinking of, uh, that scene in game of Thrones, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get spoiler alert, get rid of some names, Uhhuh, just so just in case anyone's for some, reason's still on the game of Thrones bandwagon where, uh, someone is imprisoned dismembered in the very, very literal sense of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And that is consumed right in front of him.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> that seems like crazy cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna talk about literally a CA a modern case of exactly what you just said.

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<v Speaker 1>You're, you're hitting the nail on

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<v Speaker 2>The nose, but yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>There's no murder involved in that situation.

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<v Speaker 2>No, there doesn't have to be, but definitely naming

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>If, if you're limiting the view of cannibalism to taking away murder or death, then yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>There has to be ma because you're eating somebody while they're alive.

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<v Speaker 1>That's

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<v Speaker 2>Gross.

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<v Speaker 1><laugh> as I think we just kind of demonstrated history of cannibalism is going to be surprising in some ways, mainly that it is considered a taboo in modern societies, despite its rather prominent history.

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<v Speaker 1>Like it has not always been that way then again, there's there's like reasons for this.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of them have to do with

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<v Speaker 2>The pons.

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<v Speaker 2>What are the pons?

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<v Speaker 2>The pons are the, what is the thing?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if it's a bacteria or a virus or something in the brain.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, kuru.

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<v Speaker 2>Kuru is caused by yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Ingesting crayons.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Got it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna talk about that.

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<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>It was what I was just about to say.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing is that cannibalism can make people sick and that's part of the reason why there's this taboo.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually a kuru, which we'll talk about is a fatal brain disease that you get from eating the brain of humans.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like mad cow disease.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>In his book, cannibalism a perfectly natural history bill Shutt makes the case.

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<v Speaker 1>That cannibalism actually makes perfect sense.

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<v Speaker 1>After all, we see it throughout the animal kingdom and humans seem to be the only species with any fear of Cann.

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<v Speaker 1>That's

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<v Speaker 2>Not true.

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<v Speaker 2>Prove me wrong.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure that if you took one of the really, really intelligent species mm-hmm<affirmative> like dolphins and you showed them videos of dolphin, cannibalism, they would get freaked out.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good point.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm I'm this is a hypothesis.

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<v Speaker 2>I, I don't have the funds, the empirical testing mm-hmm<affirmative> to back up that claim, but can you disprove it?

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<v Speaker 2>Sure you can.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>I bet there's studies done about dolphins, not being able to watch a video and understand what they're watching.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>We're getting off topic here.

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<v Speaker 1><laugh> we're gonna kick things off here by defining a few different types of cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>Just some vocab terms that might come up throughout at a high level, we have endo and exo cannibalism.

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<v Speaker 1>Endo cannibalism is the act of eating a deceased person who is the member of your social group?

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<v Speaker 1>Exo cannibalism is eating someone outside of your social group.

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<v Speaker 2>So like if you're not Facebook friends, exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>No more.

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<v Speaker 1>So like if, if somebody is part of your village or tribe, they're in your social group, if it's a or,

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<v Speaker 2>Or homeowners criminal association,

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>If it's a war criminal that's outside of your social group, right?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, or a war captive.

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<v Speaker 1>I should say.

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<v Speaker 2>I just got to say like bring, bring the war criminal home.

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<v Speaker 2>The whole nation gets to eat.

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<v Speaker 2>Em, no,

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<v Speaker 1>That's what literally has happened a lot.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Survival cannibalism obviously is when people eat people as a way to survive extreme circumstances, ritual cannibalism is when cannibalism is used in ritual.

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<v Speaker 1>Sometimes funeral rights, sometimes war, uh, or victory rituals, pathological cannibalism, thank Jeffrey Dahmer or a serial killer sexual cannibalism cannibalism where somebody is getting sexual gratification.

00:13:45.890 --> 00:13:46.809
<v Speaker 1>That's their motivation.

00:13:46.811 --> 00:13:47.690
<v Speaker 1>They get off on it.

00:13:47.830 --> 00:13:50.129
<v Speaker 2>Is that different from auto erotic cannibalism?

00:13:50.710 --> 00:13:50.929
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

00:13:51.129 --> 00:13:54.440
<v Speaker 1>I think auto erotic cannibalism would be a sub genre of that.

00:13:54.820 --> 00:13:56.320
<v Speaker 1>We have symbolic cannibalism.

00:13:56.490 --> 00:14:02.159
<v Speaker 1>Think the Eucharist, the act of eating a wafer that symbolizes eating the body of Christ.

00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:05.399
<v Speaker 1>And this actually comes up more than I expected throughout the history.

00:14:05.899 --> 00:14:10.120
<v Speaker 1>And then of course we have auto cannibalism, the act of eating your own body parts.

00:14:10.379 --> 00:14:13.070
<v Speaker 1>So those are just some like broad definitions as we go, go through.

00:14:13.649 --> 00:14:15.029
<v Speaker 2>I'm already very uncomfortable.

00:14:15.529 --> 00:14:15.950
<v Speaker 1>Oh good.

00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:24.269
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad we're gonna spend five episodes here, but you're gonna challenge maybe the way you think about it throughout this, because you have an open mind.

00:14:24.649 --> 00:14:25.149
<v Speaker 1>Are you

00:14:25.149 --> 00:14:27.309
<v Speaker 2>Trying to get me to accept cannibalism?

00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:31.029
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to get you to accept cannibalism for yourself.

00:14:31.529 --> 00:14:37.820
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to get you to accept cannibalism for different situations outside of yourself.

00:14:38.220 --> 00:14:38.779
<v Speaker 1>What, what does that mean?

00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:52.700
<v Speaker 1>It means maybe there are some instances or rituals that happen throughout history that are actually not so scary and disgusting that the people who did them believed that they were infused with meeting and honor.

00:14:53.250 --> 00:14:53.539
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:14:54.210 --> 00:15:00.769
<v Speaker 2>I think the hangup is that I get really, really grossed out by pathological cannibalism.

00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:01.289
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:15:01.291 --> 00:15:04.049
<v Speaker 1>That's like a, such a small drop in the bucket with what we're gonna talk about.

00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:05.210
<v Speaker 2>Well, okay.

00:15:05.309 --> 00:15:06.330
<v Speaker 2>So maybe we just don't

00:15:06.330 --> 00:15:06.889
<v Speaker 1>Talk about it.

00:15:07.000 --> 00:15:07.289
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:15:07.291 --> 00:15:09.009
<v Speaker 1>We will cuz to me it's most interesting.

00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:09.450
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:09.809
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:15:10.250 --> 00:15:11.450
<v Speaker 1><laugh> but we won't talk about it for a while.

00:15:11.789 --> 00:15:16.039
<v Speaker 1>So we're going to start off with Neanderthals the,

00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:17.039
<v Speaker 2>The Neanderthals.

00:15:17.419 --> 00:15:23.799
<v Speaker 1>So it may or may not be surprising to you, but Europe is actually the location of the first fossil evidence of cannibalism.

00:15:24.700 --> 00:15:26.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm gonna say that's not surprising.

00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:27.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, there you go.

00:15:27.580 --> 00:15:28.360
<v Speaker 2>Aren't you curious?

00:15:28.580 --> 00:15:38.200
<v Speaker 2>Why, why simply just because we've spent so much time developing Europe and like digging, I wanna say it's a lot of like no stone left unturned.

00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:41.399
<v Speaker 2>I think I, I feel like you can find these fossils all around the world.

00:15:41.620 --> 00:15:47.879
<v Speaker 2>You can, it's just in Europe, which was also like close enough to like the cradle of humanity.

00:15:47.880 --> 00:15:48.159
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:15:48.830 --> 00:15:53.750
<v Speaker 2><affirmative> we've just done so much excavation that we found a ton of the, a ton of the available

00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:54.309
<v Speaker 1>Fossils.

00:15:54.460 --> 00:15:55.309
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, for sure.

00:15:55.649 --> 00:15:58.269
<v Speaker 1>So French paleontologists found

00:15:58.610 --> 00:16:03.309
<v Speaker 2>Is this, is this the thing where they found the, the bone with like human bite marks on it?

00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:03.990
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:16:04.009 --> 00:16:19.299
<v Speaker 1>So all of the early evidence that, that we're gonna talk about is that French paleon S found that a hundred thousand year old Neanderthal bones had been broken apart in a cave in a way that suggested that they were extracting the bone marrow and brains.

00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:26.899
<v Speaker 1>And there were marks left on the bones from tools, which suggest that the meat of the body and even the tongue had been eaten.

00:16:27.210 --> 00:16:50.679
<v Speaker 1>Similar evidence has been discovered over an over and over again from this era quoting from the Smithsonian magazine article quote in one particularly grizzly discovery at the Eldrin cave in Spain, paleontologists discovered that an extended family of 12 individuals had dismembered skinned and then eaten other Neanderthals about 50,000 year, years ago.

00:16:50.820 --> 00:17:15.309
<v Speaker 1>Now, one thing to note here, bill shut, who wrote that book has an entire chapter in his book dedicated to the debate that Neanderthals are our ancestors or not meaning scholars debate, whether homo sapians evolve directly from Neanderthals most believe that Neanderthals and homo sapians and you know, paleolithic humans coexisted as different species for 50,000 years with very little in

00:17:15.309 --> 00:17:15.630
<v Speaker 2>Breeding.

00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:16.829
<v Speaker 2>And then we them up.

00:17:17.390 --> 00:17:17.390
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:17:17.779 --> 00:17:18.710
<v Speaker 1>Also interesting.

00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:27.190
<v Speaker 1>Archeologists have found that neanderthal's brain capacity was a hundred to 150 liters bigger than that, of paleolithic humans.

00:17:28.009 --> 00:17:40.140
<v Speaker 1>All of that being said, there was evidence that the common ancestor between Neanderthals and homo sapien participated in cannibalism before more advanced hunting methods were developed millions of years ago.

00:17:40.480 --> 00:18:04.250
<v Speaker 1>So even though there's proof of Neanderthals committing cannibalism, which may or may not be an ancestor of humans, which is again, this sort of like hot topic debate with archeologists, there seems to still be evidence that the sort of previous the, the common ancestor between right paleolithic, humans and Neanderthals, if you believe they are separate, they also participated in cannibalism, right?

00:18:04.250 --> 00:18:11.609
<v Speaker 1>So it seems like at the very earliest inception of whoever our ancestor is, it was still something that happened.

00:18:12.619 --> 00:18:14.000
<v Speaker 1>So why am I nitpicking?

00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:28.039
<v Speaker 1>I have no idea because there are many archeological sites that have uncovered evidence of what is mostly believed to be cannibalism in Neanderthals, which again, may or may not be an ancestor to modern humans though.

00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Even with this evidence, some debate that the markings on the bones and other discoveries could be from post death handling, not necessarily due to cannibalism.

00:18:37.950 --> 00:18:41.400
<v Speaker 1>Some argue that these bone markings are due to funeral rights.

00:18:41.779 --> 00:18:52.789
<v Speaker 1>So the kind of hypothesis is that these bones were found with these workings and, and what, again, looks like they were being processed in a way where they could have been Ian sure.

00:18:52.790 --> 00:18:54.990
<v Speaker 1>That the flesh was being removed from the bones.

00:18:55.730 --> 00:19:05.190
<v Speaker 1>So the kind of hypothesis was, okay, this could be cannibalism, or it could be sort of like some sort of funeral practice that, you know, Neanderthals took part in.

00:19:05.569 --> 00:19:15.420
<v Speaker 1>How do we tell the archeologists were like, well, if we find animal bones with the same markings, then it's unlikely that it was a funeral practice, right?

00:19:15.421 --> 00:19:20.380
<v Speaker 1>Because they're probably not, they probably aren't having funerals for the animals that they're hunting probably.

00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:22.420
<v Speaker 1>And that's exactly what happened.

00:19:22.930 --> 00:19:32.250
<v Speaker 1>They found that the same markings that they found on, you know, these human bones from forever a go, they also found on animal bones.

00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:37.410
<v Speaker 1>And so they are assuming that it is a hunting practice, but of course we're never really gonna know because we weren't there.

00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:38.490
<v Speaker 1>Does that make sense?

00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:47.890
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it does go cave located in Somerset in the UK has archeological proof of human cannibalism dating back 15,000 years.

00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:49.440
<v Speaker 1>That's not very long.

00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:54.039
<v Speaker 1>No, not only is there archeological evidence that cannibalism took place.

00:19:54.619 --> 00:19:58.920
<v Speaker 1>It also appears that the inhabitants used human skulls as drinking vessels.

00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:00.960
<v Speaker 2>Ah, the Vikings<laugh>.

00:20:01.539 --> 00:20:13.069
<v Speaker 1>And we obviously don't have quite as much information on cannibalism from this time period, but it's mostly broadly agree it upon by archeologists and scholars that it did happen in some format.

00:20:13.210 --> 00:20:22.190
<v Speaker 1>So I really like split hairs, I guess, on Neanderthals versus humans and funeral rights versus cannibalism.

00:20:22.191 --> 00:20:28.309
<v Speaker 1>But I'm just trying to give the current state of the understanding of this evidence and not just say, well, we have proof.

00:20:28.470 --> 00:20:34.980
<v Speaker 1>It happened just so everybody kind of knows the complexity of the debates that this evidence represents in the academic world.

00:20:35.490 --> 00:20:39.579
<v Speaker 2>Well, I, I, I made a joke about the Vikings, but obviously that's not 15,000 years ago.

00:20:39.580 --> 00:20:43.099
<v Speaker 2>It's far more recent than that, but are we gonna talk about them at all?

00:20:43.359 --> 00:20:43.579
<v Speaker 1>No.

00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:47.700
<v Speaker 1>So I would love to hear what I didn't, I didn't re prepare any research on them.

00:20:47.980 --> 00:20:49.299
<v Speaker 1>I would love to hear what your thoughts are

00:20:49.990 --> 00:20:50.809
<v Speaker 2>In Norwegian.

00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:53.970
<v Speaker 2>What do you say instead of saying cheers, what do you say?

00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:55.089
<v Speaker 2>School school.

00:20:55.190 --> 00:20:55.410
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

00:20:55.411 --> 00:20:57.329
<v Speaker 2>Which is skull skull.

00:20:57.330 --> 00:20:57.769
<v Speaker 2>That's right.

00:20:58.349 --> 00:20:59.529
<v Speaker 2>Do you know why?

00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:02.170
<v Speaker 1>Because they put beer in skull,

00:21:03.369 --> 00:21:05.569
<v Speaker 2>Uh, Cole, Mead.

00:21:06.009 --> 00:21:06.009
<v Speaker 2>Mead.

00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:06.250
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:06.690
<v Speaker 2>There you go.

00:21:07.190 --> 00:21:17.759
<v Speaker 2>So after a battle, it was tree addition to the first cup of Mead was drank out of the enemy leaders' skull.

00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:18.079
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:19.880
<v Speaker 2>So I was pretty hardcore.

00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:20.359
<v Speaker 2>It is.

00:21:20.420 --> 00:21:21.640
<v Speaker 2>And they just go, you know, I

00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:24.200
<v Speaker 1>Get why metal bands cover the Viking so much.

00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:28.519
<v Speaker 2>Uh, I mean, as, as they should<laugh> but yeah, that was, I think I

00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.839
<v Speaker 1>Personally think that's a pretty badass way to celebrate your victory so that doesn't make you screamish.

00:21:32.940 --> 00:21:33.160
<v Speaker 1>No,

00:21:33.799 --> 00:21:34.079
<v Speaker 2><laugh> okay.

00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.839
<v Speaker 2>No, that, that was that's earned in battle.

00:21:37.309 --> 00:21:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:21:37.670 --> 00:21:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Also like how, how does that work?

00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:41.720
<v Speaker 2>How do they not, does it not leak out the eyes?

00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:45.069
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but it's something that comes up a oh,

00:21:45.069 --> 00:21:46.630
<v Speaker 2>Oh, you turn it upside down.

00:21:47.019 --> 00:21:47.309
<v Speaker 2>What?

00:21:47.849 --> 00:21:48.910
<v Speaker 2>Of course you don't hold it.

00:21:48.940 --> 00:21:49.230
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:21:49.329 --> 00:21:50.670
<v Speaker 2>I'm picturing like the mouth down.

00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:51.750
<v Speaker 2>No course of

00:21:51.829 --> 00:21:51.829
<v Speaker 1>Course.

00:21:51.830 --> 00:21:52.390
<v Speaker 1>That's ridiculous.

00:21:52.470 --> 00:21:54.670
<v Speaker 1>But still there's like, you know, you just,

00:21:54.779 --> 00:21:55.789
<v Speaker 2>It's a shallow bowl.

00:21:56.220 --> 00:21:56.509
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:21:57.910 --> 00:21:58.630
<v Speaker 2>There's a, you got AUR.

00:21:58.660 --> 00:21:59.349
<v Speaker 2>It's not a great

00:21:59.369 --> 00:21:59.589
<v Speaker 1>Cup.

00:22:00.130 --> 00:22:02.230
<v Speaker 1>No, but it's a, it's like a symbolic

00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:02.589
<v Speaker 2>Actually.

00:22:02.590 --> 00:22:03.029
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

00:22:03.329 --> 00:22:08.980
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure they had ways to seal it up to like make it into a pretty darn functional cup.

00:22:09.369 --> 00:22:10.339
<v Speaker 2>They had a lot of practice.

00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:10.940
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.339
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure there's like one guy who's like, you know, I'm gonna come here.

00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:18.660
<v Speaker 2>And he is like, get to check out this new cup I made and you know, they seal it up.

00:22:18.661 --> 00:22:21.500
<v Speaker 2>They had a handle, had a put, get a little Thermo lid.

00:22:21.609 --> 00:22:25.299
<v Speaker 1>It's right next to the blacksmith booth is the skull cup booth.

00:22:25.829 --> 00:22:27.009
<v Speaker 2>The skull cuy yeah.

00:22:27.910 --> 00:22:35.089
<v Speaker 1>That's actually a theme we're gonna see right up until ed Gean of, of people converting skulls into drinking vessels

00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:37.569
<v Speaker 2>Right up until he was the last

00:22:38.029 --> 00:22:53.200
<v Speaker 1>No, but he's a pretty modern example in the scheme of life, we also know that cannibalism was practiced in ancient Egypt and Egypt during famines, especially the great famine of 1199 to 1202, a D

00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:54.400
<v Speaker 2>Oh, don't remind me.

00:22:54.401 --> 00:22:55.079
<v Speaker 2>Those were hard times.

00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:55.640
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:22:56.230 --> 00:22:57.119
<v Speaker 1>Also in Egypt.

00:22:57.150 --> 00:23:29.339
<v Speaker 1>There's a tomb of ancient king UUs which includes a HYM that praises him as a cannibal.

00:23:30.819 --> 00:23:30.819
<v Speaker 2>Oh

00:23:31.819 --> 00:23:35.849
<v Speaker 1>UUSS so again, like that's, it's like a positive spin on cannibalism.

00:23:35.851 --> 00:23:37.289
<v Speaker 1>Nobody is persecuting him.

00:23:37.309 --> 00:23:42.089
<v Speaker 1>He was in a position of power and they were like, hell yeah, you earned this position of cannibalism.

00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:42.809
<v Speaker 1>Nobody

00:23:42.900 --> 00:23:44.809
<v Speaker 2>Hates people like you onus<laugh>

00:23:45.500 --> 00:23:50.250
<v Speaker 1>Early Christians during the Imperial era and Rome were persecuted for cannibalism.

00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:51.329
<v Speaker 1>Christians were

00:23:51.970 --> 00:23:54.559
<v Speaker 2>Uhhuh<affirmative> because they keep eating Christ

00:23:55.460 --> 00:23:57.240
<v Speaker 1>In Greek mythology, feisty.

00:23:57.339 --> 00:24:02.039
<v Speaker 1>The king of Olympia is tricked into eating his own sons by his brothers.

00:24:02.059 --> 00:24:03.480
<v Speaker 1>It seems very complicated.

00:24:03.619 --> 00:24:04.839
<v Speaker 1>Do you know the story, Alan?

00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:06.519
<v Speaker 2>I won't say I know it.

00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:07.920
<v Speaker 2>I know of it.

00:24:08.069 --> 00:24:08.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:16.950
<v Speaker 2>And this is honestly, this is one of those stories that if it's really well into like stories around the campfire.

00:24:17.509 --> 00:24:17.509
<v Speaker 2>Mm

00:24:17.910 --> 00:24:20.230
<v Speaker 1>Um, the oral story, storytelling tradition.

00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:20.750
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.549
<v Speaker 2>Where, you know, this story can take place kind of anywhere.

00:24:24.609 --> 00:24:27.549
<v Speaker 2>And they'll just change the names in, in this case.

00:24:27.550 --> 00:24:27.950
<v Speaker 2>Like, yeah.

00:24:27.951 --> 00:24:30.109
<v Speaker 2>This is supposedly real people that existed.

00:24:30.509 --> 00:24:32.990
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> you have the, you have king feisty.

00:24:33.390 --> 00:24:33.390
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.140
<v Speaker 2>For complicated reasons.

00:24:37.289 --> 00:24:37.579
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:39.339
<v Speaker 2>He over his brother.

00:24:39.980 --> 00:24:40.259
<v Speaker 2>Atreus yeah.

00:24:40.819 --> 00:24:45.740
<v Speaker 2>Uh, and you know, banishes him or something is something like that.

00:24:45.740 --> 00:24:45.940
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:46.380
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:50.859
<v Speaker 2>And so his brother kills feisty sons.

00:24:51.170 --> 00:24:52.700
<v Speaker 2>Well, no, he kidnapped them.

00:24:53.250 --> 00:24:59.619
<v Speaker 2>Then he, he, he kills them, cuts off their heads in their hands, but uses the rest of the body to prepare a stew.

00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:00.380
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:01.900
<v Speaker 2>And nephew, stew.

00:25:01.901 --> 00:25:02.299
<v Speaker 2>Nephew.

00:25:02.769 --> 00:25:03.059
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:25:03.060 --> 00:25:03.660
<v Speaker 2>Nephew stew.

00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.259
<v Speaker 2>And he presents the stew to feisty.

00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:09.009
<v Speaker 2>Maybe.

00:25:09.130 --> 00:25:13.970
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if it was like a peace offering or where he was welcome back, but obviously he's back if he's giving him stew sure.

00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:20.369
<v Speaker 2>Feisty and his, his like wife eat it and they're like, wow, this is the best, best stew ever.

00:25:20.890 --> 00:25:27.730
<v Speaker 2><laugh> at that point, he like, you know, I only imagine like grand spectacle reveals the heads and the hands and like, ha ha.

00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:28.769
<v Speaker 2>You're eating your kid.

00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:30.440
<v Speaker 2>He goes, no.

00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:35.400
<v Speaker 2>And somehow that's how a trays takes over.

00:25:35.619 --> 00:25:37.839
<v Speaker 2>And like feisty is like all, I don't know.

00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I dunno what happens to him.

00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:39.759
<v Speaker 2>I guess he just like leaves.

00:25:40.190 --> 00:25:40.680
<v Speaker 2>He's upset.

00:25:40.829 --> 00:25:41.119
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

00:25:41.299 --> 00:25:44.640
<v Speaker 2>That's where you get the, the phrase, uh, feisty and feast.

00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:46.279
<v Speaker 1>I've never heard that before.

00:25:46.539 --> 00:25:49.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's uh, just any feast of human

00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:49.319
<v Speaker 1>Fly.

00:25:49.869 --> 00:25:49.869
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

00:25:50.049 --> 00:25:50.470
<v Speaker 1>Really?

00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:50.750
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

00:25:50.849 --> 00:25:51.589
<v Speaker 1>Oh, interesting.

00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:55.670
<v Speaker 2><laugh> so, uh, we can, we can keep using that phrase as the episode continues.

00:25:55.670 --> 00:25:55.950
<v Speaker 1>Perfect.

00:25:56.049 --> 00:25:56.990
<v Speaker 1>We learned something new.

00:25:57.210 --> 00:26:00.309
<v Speaker 1>So what's interesting here is that pagan authors.

00:26:00.310 --> 00:26:11.819
<v Speaker 1>And this is according to an academic paper by Bart wage makers, pagan authors, named Christian festivities after feist's, which in turn is a heavy accusation of cannibalism.

00:26:12.200 --> 00:26:30.220
<v Speaker 1>The sort of hypocritical thing is that we know from our conversations with Miranda Waral, right on our sown, uh, history episode in Yu history that early pagans also were very actively sacrificing people and children and eating them at different events.

00:26:30.509 --> 00:26:41.569
<v Speaker 1>So it seems like there's, you know, it's probably happening during this era of when like paganism is turning into Christianity, there's also accusations of incest and infanticide during this era.

00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:50.049
<v Speaker 1>And so many early Christians were accused of sacrificing children and eating them, which again might be kind of the overlap of the evolution here.

00:26:50.050 --> 00:26:50.210
<v Speaker 1>Right?

00:26:50.269 --> 00:26:54.920
<v Speaker 1>So all of that to say is that this is definitely something that we know happened at this time.

00:26:55.420 --> 00:27:10.680
<v Speaker 1>And obviously something where we're seeing the tab, the taboo start to form because people, even though this was part of virtual practice at one point, and it was kind of like what it was, it's now being used kind of against people in more quote, unquote like defined societies,

00:27:11.509 --> 00:27:15.789
<v Speaker 2>Circling back a little bit, as long as we're close enough to Greek mythology.

00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:16.349
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:23.109
<v Speaker 2>There is one, I, I didn't, as soon as you said Greek mythology, I was like, oh, well I guess we're gonna talk about this.

00:27:23.111 --> 00:27:24.509
<v Speaker 2>And we talked about a completely different story.

00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:24.910
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:27:25.490 --> 00:27:29.309
<v Speaker 2>But that would just be Kronos and his, all the gods.

00:27:30.009 --> 00:27:37.180
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, the, the famous picture, the famous painting, I think it's by Goya of Saturn eating Saturn, his sons.

00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:38.660
<v Speaker 2>It is it's.

00:27:38.661 --> 00:27:38.819
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:39.740
<v Speaker 2>It is by Goya.

00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.220
<v Speaker 2>I'm proud.

00:27:40.640 --> 00:27:45.099
<v Speaker 2>The, the famous painting by Goya, uh, Saturn devouring, his son.

00:27:45.579 --> 00:27:45.579
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:47.180
<v Speaker 2>The, this, this painting.

00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:49.059
<v Speaker 1>I'm not familiar, but now I am.

00:27:49.060 --> 00:27:50.059
<v Speaker 1>You've never seen this before.

00:27:50.060 --> 00:27:50.539
<v Speaker 1>No, it's

00:27:50.539 --> 00:27:50.980
<v Speaker 2>Very intense.

00:27:51.289 --> 00:27:52.220
<v Speaker 2>It's very intense.

00:27:52.960 --> 00:27:59.900
<v Speaker 2>And this is an in, this is gonna be a unique situation, cuz this is cannibalism out of fear.

00:28:00.450 --> 00:28:01.980
<v Speaker 2>Tell me more in this case.

00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:11.529
<v Speaker 2>So Saturn, which is the Roman name for the Titan Kronos mm-hmm<affirmative> Krono being father to the most famous Greek God.

00:28:11.589 --> 00:28:23.609
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, zoo beside in yeah, the, the whole Pantheon just, just about, well the original, however many, six started eight, however many started, uh, before they procreate and get up to 12.

00:28:24.450 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 2>Uh, but anyways, it was prophesized that just like Kronos had done to his own father, Uranus mm-hmm<affirmative> Kronos, Uranus, Uranus.

00:28:35.161 --> 00:28:35.519
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

00:28:35.520 --> 00:28:39.880
<v Speaker 2>No one likes to talk about Uranus<laugh> it was prophesized that his own child would kill him.

00:28:40.299 --> 00:28:47.670
<v Speaker 2>So every time his wife R would wife slash sister would have a kid, he would just like snatch the baby and jump him jump.

00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:48.029
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:28:48.589 --> 00:28:48.589
<v Speaker 2>Geez.

00:28:49.190 --> 00:28:55.750
<v Speaker 2>And it wasn't until R gave birth to what she felt to be like the most powerful son, which was Zeus.

00:28:56.009 --> 00:29:01.990
<v Speaker 2>And she did a little, uh, Swepty swap swoop, swap where she pretended to give birth.

00:29:02.410 --> 00:29:03.750
<v Speaker 2>And then it was just a watermelon.

00:29:04.150 --> 00:29:06.470
<v Speaker 2>She, well, she waited until he was like far away.

00:29:07.089 --> 00:29:08.900
<v Speaker 2>And then she's like, oh, give him birth.

00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:11.700
<v Speaker 2>And so he comes, he comes running, getting ready to chomp.

00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:12.180
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.619
<v Speaker 2>And she had Swed a big rock.

00:29:15.500 --> 00:29:17.420
<v Speaker 2>He eat the rock and he eat the rock cuz he he's an idiot.

00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.900
<v Speaker 1>He didn't realize he's the most powerful God of all time.

00:29:19.901 --> 00:29:22.579
<v Speaker 1>He didn't realize that it was a rock and not a human and not a God

00:29:22.779 --> 00:29:22.779
<v Speaker 2>Baby.

00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:29.730
<v Speaker 2>He was so afraid of these kids that he would just immediately just swallow him whole just because he's too afraid.

00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:30.009
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:29:30.349 --> 00:29:32.009
<v Speaker 2>And so meanwhile, I think if I

00:29:32.009 --> 00:29:36.930
<v Speaker 1>Swallowed a rock hole, I would understand that it's different than a fleshy

00:29:36.930 --> 00:29:37.410
<v Speaker 2>Little baby.

00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.569
<v Speaker 2>Well, you and Kronos have differences.

00:29:39.960 --> 00:29:40.250
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:29:40.470 --> 00:29:40.769
<v Speaker 2>You know?

00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:41.329
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:29:41.869 --> 00:29:43.690
<v Speaker 1>One is obviously superior to the other.

00:29:44.049 --> 00:29:44.450
<v Speaker 1>I mean, no,

00:29:44.890 --> 00:29:45.890
<v Speaker 2>Everyone has their strengths.

00:29:46.390 --> 00:29:48.690
<v Speaker 2>Kronos is good at cutting off genitals with Sickles.

00:29:49.150 --> 00:29:49.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:29:50.029 --> 00:29:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I've never, yeah.

00:29:50.641 --> 00:29:51.319
<v Speaker 1>I've never been good

00:29:51.319 --> 00:29:51.599
<v Speaker 2>At that.

00:29:51.710 --> 00:29:52.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:53.559
<v Speaker 2>You're good at chopping vegetables.

00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:54.160
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:29:55.359 --> 00:29:56.200
<v Speaker 1>Ah, am I calling?

00:29:56.539 --> 00:29:56.920
<v Speaker 2>But yeah.

00:29:57.150 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Then obviously Ze who was not devoured grows up and kills his own father.

00:30:01.279 --> 00:30:01.279
<v Speaker 1>Mm.

00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Rock and roll, I guess.

00:30:03.190 --> 00:30:05.440
<v Speaker 2>Well dismembers him and then just throws to tarts.

00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:07.759
<v Speaker 1>I mean prophecy realized and

00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:12.029
<v Speaker 2>Then all the, all the, all babies that he had devoured pop out fully grown.

00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:12.990
<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah.

00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:16.190
<v Speaker 1>They were just in his stomach, like little magic school bus people.

00:30:16.259 --> 00:30:16.750
<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

00:30:17.349 --> 00:30:18.150
<v Speaker 1><laugh> well, there you go.

00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:19.269
<v Speaker 1>Cool.

00:30:19.270 --> 00:30:21.230
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for filling in the gaps on that one.

00:30:21.349 --> 00:30:23.950
<v Speaker 1>I, I didn't even think about the rest of Greek mythology.

00:30:24.470 --> 00:30:27.150
<v Speaker 2><laugh> here's another picture of Groo's devouring a kid.

00:30:27.470 --> 00:30:28.589
<v Speaker 2>It was, it was a very classic.

00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:33.460
<v Speaker 2>It was, it was popular like trope, uh, just a thing to paint.

00:30:33.690 --> 00:30:33.980
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:30:34.329 --> 00:30:34.740
<v Speaker 1>It's weird.

00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:36.259
<v Speaker 1>His pants are falling down on that one.

00:30:36.859 --> 00:30:38.140
<v Speaker 2>Uh it's I mean he was naked.

00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:39.660
<v Speaker 2>This was just the modesty shroud.

00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:39.940
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:30:40.369 --> 00:30:41.900
<v Speaker 1>Jumping continents.

00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:48.660
<v Speaker 1>Now there are records of cannibalism in China that date back 2000 years and, and definitely predate that.

00:30:49.400 --> 00:30:54.059
<v Speaker 1>But in this region, filial cannibalism seem to be especially popular.

00:30:54.890 --> 00:30:56.299
<v Speaker 1>What is filial cannibalism?

00:30:56.300 --> 00:30:58.059
<v Speaker 1>Because we didn't define it at the beginning.

00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:09.130
<v Speaker 1>I'm so glad you asked it's when fully grown children offer parts of their own flesh to their parents, why it was thought at the time that it was a way to help cure sick and elderly parents.

00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.369
<v Speaker 1>What mm-hmm<affirmative> so like, oh man, this is 2000 years ago.

00:31:14.230 --> 00:31:15.410
<v Speaker 1>My parent is dying.

00:31:15.950 --> 00:31:18.890
<v Speaker 1>The only thing that is gonna help is if I give them one of my fingers.

00:31:19.329 --> 00:31:19.490
<v Speaker 1>Oh no.

00:31:19.690 --> 00:31:20.089
<v Speaker 1>To no,

00:31:20.250 --> 00:31:21.490
<v Speaker 2>I've got the RO give me your leg.

00:31:21.970 --> 00:31:21.970
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:31.000
<v Speaker 1>According to texts, it seemed that's a often again took the form of offering thigh flesh, or sometimes a finger, but never a fatal dose.

00:31:31.019 --> 00:31:33.200
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't like you're gonna kill me.

00:31:33.220 --> 00:31:37.720
<v Speaker 1>It was just like, here's a little nibble of my life force for you to help revive you.

00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:38.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't

00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 2>Need much just your aorta.

00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:40.079
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:47.829
<v Speaker 1>So there's also records of human flesh being served to Imperial leaders like that is very widely recorded.

00:31:48.750 --> 00:31:54.069
<v Speaker 1>Additionally, when famine struck China during the Mau era, starvation swept the nation.

00:31:54.289 --> 00:31:54.789
<v Speaker 1>So we're

00:31:54.789 --> 00:31:55.710
<v Speaker 2>Just, we're jumping ahead.

00:31:56.150 --> 00:31:56.150
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:31:56.390 --> 00:31:56.990
<v Speaker 2>A a lot.

00:31:57.099 --> 00:31:57.390
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:31:57.500 --> 00:31:57.789
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:31:57.859 --> 00:31:59.829
<v Speaker 1>Just I'm giving kind of like a debrief on China.

00:31:59.830 --> 00:32:00.230
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha.

00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:00.589
<v Speaker 1>We're

00:32:00.589 --> 00:32:01.150
<v Speaker 2>In the China section.

00:32:01.279 --> 00:32:02.390
<v Speaker 1>We're in the, the China section.

00:32:03.130 --> 00:32:10.940
<v Speaker 1>And so there are accounts of families actually trading children at this time in order to avoid consuming their own offspring.

00:32:11.000 --> 00:32:15.140
<v Speaker 1>So you knew at some point as parents, that you were gonna eat your kids to survive.

00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:17.700
<v Speaker 1>So the neighbors would SW swap kids.

00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:19.220
<v Speaker 1>So they wouldn't have to eat their own kids.

00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:20.660
<v Speaker 2>Give me the tall one.

00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:21.299
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:32:22.299 --> 00:32:22.299
<v Speaker 1>That?

00:32:22.300 --> 00:32:23.460
<v Speaker 1>That concludes our China section.

00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:23.859
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:32:23.861 --> 00:32:24.180
<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:24.500
<v Speaker 1>So

00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:25.339
<v Speaker 2>Are you back in time

00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:25.579
<v Speaker 1>Now?

00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:27.049
<v Speaker 1>Now we're at the crusades.

00:32:28.609 --> 00:32:28.609
<v Speaker 2>Really?

00:32:29.470 --> 00:32:30.970
<v Speaker 2>Really just jumping all over here.

00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.930
<v Speaker 1>We're jumping we're we're going mostly in order of time.

00:32:34.390 --> 00:32:35.009
<v Speaker 1>So wait,

00:32:35.549 --> 00:32:40.210
<v Speaker 2>We just did Rome, China now onto the crusades<laugh> yeah.

00:32:40.809 --> 00:32:40.809
<v Speaker 2>Gotcha.

00:32:41.210 --> 00:32:42.809
<v Speaker 2>The, the logical procession of time.

00:32:43.670 --> 00:32:46.130
<v Speaker 1>Why you think the crusades goes earlier?

00:32:46.430 --> 00:32:50.599
<v Speaker 2>No, I just thought it was funny cuz we were talking about like different eras, like different areas of the world.

00:32:50.859 --> 00:32:53.079
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> and now we're just gonna talk about time, period.

00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:54.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:55.559
<v Speaker 2>Very, very loosey goosey.

00:32:55.560 --> 00:32:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I like it.

00:32:56.279 --> 00:33:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, what I'm doing is these are the moments that I think are worth talking about.

00:33:00.500 --> 00:33:05.240
<v Speaker 1>And obviously there's a lot more, but I don't have, we don't have time to list everything.

00:33:05.369 --> 00:33:10.390
<v Speaker 1>Every single incident of can cannabis that in every single society, across every span of time and this

00:33:10.710 --> 00:33:13.029
<v Speaker 2>IST a criticism, this is an enthusiastic commentary.

00:33:13.349 --> 00:33:13.349
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:33:13.490 --> 00:33:14.990
<v Speaker 1>Sounds a little judgmental.

00:33:15.500 --> 00:33:19.109
<v Speaker 2>This is a judgment free zone that was established at the beginning of

00:33:19.109 --> 00:33:19.630
<v Speaker 1>This episode.

00:33:19.950 --> 00:33:21.670
<v Speaker 1>And one of us seems to be abiding to them.

00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:40.380
<v Speaker 1>There are texts from the 11th century that show cooked human flesh was being so old at English markets during famines, an incident that happened in the year 1098 is widely known as the first cannibalistic moment in history that was reported by several different sources.

00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:45.140
<v Speaker 1>So it's like the first firsthand source that is cited by multiple.

00:33:45.369 --> 00:33:47.220
<v Speaker 1>That is like backed up by multiple accounts.

00:33:47.221 --> 00:33:47.900
<v Speaker 1>Does that make sense?

00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:48.660
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

00:33:49.039 --> 00:34:04.170
<v Speaker 1>So this is something that comes up often in, when you're looking up the history of cannibalism during the crusades, Christian soldiers laid siege on a Syrian city called Mara after a win, the Christian soldier ate the bodies of the Syrians.

00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:05.450
<v Speaker 1>What, what,

00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:06.369
<v Speaker 2>What was that movie?

00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:08.690
<v Speaker 2>There's a whole movie about this.

00:34:09.110 --> 00:34:09.489
<v Speaker 2>Oh really?

00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:10.090
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:34:10.289 --> 00:34:17.090
<v Speaker 2>I mean not about the cannibalism part, that's new, but the siege kingdom of kingdom of heaven, the, the, the Ridley Scott movie.

00:34:18.150 --> 00:34:19.530
<v Speaker 1>Do you suggest it for people to watch?

00:34:19.730 --> 00:34:19.969
<v Speaker 1>I mean,

00:34:19.969 --> 00:34:20.650
<v Speaker 2>It's a great movie.

00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:21.210
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:34:21.610 --> 00:34:22.329
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I don't know.

00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:26.039
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty be insane to me that they would make a film about this like event.

00:34:26.041 --> 00:34:31.880
<v Speaker 1>That again is widely cited as such an important cannibalistic historic moment.

00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:33.679
<v Speaker 1>And they leave that totally out.

00:34:34.119 --> 00:34:34.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean,

00:34:34.570 --> 00:34:35.440
<v Speaker 2>Don't get me wrong.

00:34:36.039 --> 00:34:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I might be confusing by crusades.

00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:40.880
<v Speaker 2>There was more than one mm-hmm<affirmative> hence the plural

00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.519
<v Speaker 1>Crusades.

00:34:41.630 --> 00:34:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:34:42.300 --> 00:34:47.510
<v Speaker 1>So quoting from the Smithsonian article thereafter, the facts get murky.

00:34:47.940 --> 00:35:09.579
<v Speaker 1>Some Chronicles report that the bodies were secretly consumed in quote unquote, wicked banquets born out of famine and without the authorization of military leaders, other reports suggest the cannibalism was done with tacit approval of military superiors, wish to use stories of the barbaric act as a psychological fear tactic in future crusade battles.

00:35:10.139 --> 00:35:15.500
<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you think you're gonna get eaten, that's a pretty big blow to morale.

00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:16.539
<v Speaker 2>No one wants to get

00:35:16.699 --> 00:35:16.780
<v Speaker 1>Eaten.

00:35:17.179 --> 00:35:21.579
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's something we see in military or like war cannibalism all the time.

00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:30.409
<v Speaker 1>One tribe wins one army win and they're eating the other side as like the most extreme fear tactic that they can think of.

00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:30.929
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:35:30.969 --> 00:35:34.769
<v Speaker 1>I mean, think of they're so tough and strong, you know, that's the idea also

00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:38.969
<v Speaker 2>Like think of how important funeral rights are to Sony people.

00:35:39.309 --> 00:35:43.250
<v Speaker 2>If your body is gonna end up getting consumed by your enemy.

00:35:44.170 --> 00:35:44.170
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:35:44.690 --> 00:35:44.769
<v Speaker 1>Like the

00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.920
<v Speaker 2>That's that's a big, that's a, that's a pretty big, uh, you know what what's word am I looking for tragedy?

00:35:53.079 --> 00:35:53.639
<v Speaker 2>Let's say insult.

00:35:53.869 --> 00:35:54.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah,

00:35:54.269 --> 00:35:54.559
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:35:55.139 --> 00:35:56.400
<v Speaker 1>Now we're gonna jump ahead again.

00:35:56.429 --> 00:36:05.360
<v Speaker 1>This is what I'm calling sort of the mid history portion, but this next thing that we're gonna talk about is one of the most defining moments in the history of cannibal as

00:36:05.929 --> 00:36:06.349
<v Speaker 2>Really?

00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:06.829
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

00:36:07.050 --> 00:36:07.269
<v Speaker 2>Why?

00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:10.869
<v Speaker 1>Because not only does it give us the word cannibalism.

00:36:11.130 --> 00:36:20.349
<v Speaker 1>Oh, but it sort of sets the tone for how all of modern history and everything after this point views, especially in the west and responds to cannibalism.

00:36:20.539 --> 00:36:20.829
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:36:21.610 --> 00:36:32.500
<v Speaker 1>To understand where the word cannibalism came from, we must about Kigo or the island cribs and indigenous people of lesser anti Tillies in the Caribbean.

00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:46.460
<v Speaker 1>As you may have connected, the Caribbean is named after the island cribs quoting from Wikipedia here at the time of Spanish contact, the ki NAGO were one of the dominant groups in the Caribbean, which owes its name to them.

00:36:46.650 --> 00:36:56.260
<v Speaker 1>They lived throughout Northeastern, south America, Trinidad and Tobago Barbados, and the Windward islands, Dominican and possibly the Southern Leeward islands.

00:36:56.940 --> 00:37:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Historically it was thought that their ancestors were mainland people who had conquered the island from their previous inhabitants, the Igni, however, linguistic and archeological evidence contradicts that notion as mass immigration in conquest, the Kago language appears not to have Ben Cara, but like that of their neighbors, the ti Irving R and others suggests that a smaller group of mainland P peoples migrated to the islands without displacing their inhabitants eventually adopting the local language, but retaining their traditions of a south American origin

00:37:31.239 --> 00:37:31.239
<v Speaker 2>Quote.

00:37:31.429 --> 00:37:33.440
<v Speaker 2>That was a, that was a block of text right there.

00:37:33.590 --> 00:37:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:37:34.599 --> 00:37:38.000
<v Speaker 1>So just, just a little bit about the history of the people of the Arabs.

00:37:38.510 --> 00:37:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:44.230
<v Speaker 2>So we're just establishing, just setting it, it up, setting up where these people originated.

00:37:44.630 --> 00:37:44.630
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:37:44.789 --> 00:37:45.869
<v Speaker 2>Cause they're all in these islands now.

00:37:46.150 --> 00:37:46.150
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

00:37:46.250 --> 00:37:48.110
<v Speaker 2>But they didn't star in the islands cuz islands are small.

00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:48.710
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:37:48.710 --> 00:37:49.030
<v Speaker 1>Right.

00:37:49.389 --> 00:37:49.389
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:37:49.610 --> 00:37:49.949
<v Speaker 1>Got it.

00:37:50.090 --> 00:37:52.030
<v Speaker 1>So then we get the section of this right.

00:37:52.030 --> 00:38:03.179
<v Speaker 1>Where we all<laugh> and I don't know how, if this was what you had, but when I grew up, there was a section in my like middle school history class about quote explorers, right?

00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:04.780
<v Speaker 2>Ah, the conta doors.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:05.219
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:15.820
<v Speaker 1>Who left Spain, entered the conta doors here who are not really explorers, but more so invaders and rapists and kidnappers and all of these other things.

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.420
<v Speaker 1>But the Spanish invaders quickly, that's not

00:38:18.570 --> 00:38:18.860
<v Speaker 2>Fair.

00:38:19.369 --> 00:38:27.929
<v Speaker 2>They're also extortionist mm-hmm<affirmative> murderers, bullies mm-hmm<affirmative> and definite racists.

00:38:27.940 --> 00:38:28.570
<v Speaker 1>There you go.

00:38:29.010 --> 00:38:39.889
<v Speaker 1><laugh> so the Spanish invaders quickly spread that the Kago people were cannibals roasting human flesh and also the ritual cannibalism of war captives.

00:38:40.429 --> 00:38:50.760
<v Speaker 1>So there's some disagreement again between am anthropologists about whether or not ritual cannibalism even happened with these people and to what degree, but it is kind of broadly accepted that.

00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Cannibalism was to some degree, part of their culture, but stay with me.

00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:57.119
<v Speaker 1>This is where it's gonna get complicated.

00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:57.960
<v Speaker 1>What,

00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.039
<v Speaker 2>What year are we in now?

00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:01.320
<v Speaker 1>15 mid 15 hundreds.

00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:01.639
<v Speaker 1>Oh, okay.

00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:04.590
<v Speaker 2>So you know, I guess

00:39:05.550 --> 00:39:06.590
<v Speaker 1>14, 15 hundreds.

00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:07.070
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:39:07.389 --> 00:39:07.389
<v Speaker 1>PO

00:39:08.030 --> 00:39:08.789
<v Speaker 2>Past the middle ages.

00:39:09.190 --> 00:39:09.190
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:39:09.570 --> 00:39:12.949
<v Speaker 2>But it's still very much like, ah, you hate this person.

00:39:13.010 --> 00:39:13.989
<v Speaker 2>You just call them a witch.

00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:16.590
<v Speaker 2>In this case, you just call them accountable.

00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:23.869
<v Speaker 2>And then you have the, the, the full legality to exploit these people because they are subhuman.

00:39:24.170 --> 00:39:24.659
<v Speaker 2>Exactly.

00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:25.340
<v Speaker 1>That's exactly.

00:39:25.340 --> 00:39:26.099
<v Speaker 1>What's about to happen.

00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:31.099
<v Speaker 1>And I wanna point out now the hypocrisy of that, as I mentioned at the beginning, right?

00:39:31.101 --> 00:39:33.820
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of cannibalism going on very socially in Europe.

00:39:33.880 --> 00:39:41.019
<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna, we're gonna tie that in right after this, enter Christopher Columbus, who is just the worst.

00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:58.219
<v Speaker 1>And so he goes, he interacts with the people of the cribs and he reports back to queen Isabella that most of the indigenous people he had met were peaceful and welcoming with the exception of a tribe of people on the carrots that were violent and cooked and ate their prison.

00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:02.969
<v Speaker 1>Some believe that Christopher Columbus actually coined the term cannibal by the way.

00:40:03.429 --> 00:40:11.769
<v Speaker 1>But we can see the evolution of the word Carib to Canna bay, to cannibal the invaders mispronounced their name, right?

00:40:11.771 --> 00:40:12.610
<v Speaker 1>The name of the people.

00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:13.210
<v Speaker 1>Some might

00:40:13.210 --> 00:40:14.010
<v Speaker 2>Say they butchered it

00:40:14.150 --> 00:40:14.809
<v Speaker 1>And called them.

00:40:15.329 --> 00:40:16.969
<v Speaker 1><laugh> very good cans.

00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:23.760
<v Speaker 1>Instead of cribs, according to Miriam Webster, the first known use of the word cannibal was 1553.

00:40:24.219 --> 00:40:24.639
<v Speaker 1>Miriam

00:40:24.639 --> 00:40:25.599
<v Speaker 2>Is a smart

00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:25.880
<v Speaker 1>Lady.

00:40:25.880 --> 00:40:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Christopher Columbus was, was meant to be like, yeah, the CIBS instead of the cribs, because he misunderstood the name that's cuz he is an idiot.

00:40:33.139 --> 00:40:34.840
<v Speaker 1>And that's how it evolved into cannibal.

00:40:35.019 --> 00:40:35.239
<v Speaker 1>We

00:40:35.239 --> 00:40:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Should do a whole episode on the horror that Christopher Columbus was.

00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:39.829
<v Speaker 2>Oh

00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:40.429
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:40:40.431 --> 00:40:41.710
<v Speaker 1>If we even wanna waste our time.

00:40:42.530 --> 00:40:54.150
<v Speaker 1>So the word started as a way for colonizers to dehumanize the indigenous people that they were encountering queen Isabella of Spain, decided to give invaders permission to capture an enslave.

00:40:54.150 --> 00:40:55.989
<v Speaker 1>Anyone they encountered that were eating humans.

00:40:56.409 --> 00:41:10.340
<v Speaker 1>So she made it a law that okay, if you discover is so ridiculous because she doesn't own this land, but she made it a law that for any of her invaders, if they encountered somebody who is accountable, they could automatically enslave them.

00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:12.699
<v Speaker 1>Again, all of this was just done as a way, right.

00:41:12.800 --> 00:41:16.460
<v Speaker 1>To justify the enslavement of other humans.

00:41:16.860 --> 00:41:16.860
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

00:41:17.480 --> 00:41:20.690
<v Speaker 1>So of course, Christopher Columbus started to use this to cap sure.

00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:36.610
<v Speaker 1>Enslave anyone that resisted his attempts to pillage and raid their land, regardless of cannibalism, that being said, there's some controversy over how accurate these legends were as they were born from Spanish invaders who are trying to paint the indigenous people as primitive.

00:41:37.030 --> 00:41:38.769
<v Speaker 1>So it's kind of a chicken in the egg thing though.

00:41:38.771 --> 00:41:41.440
<v Speaker 1>There's some who do that.

00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:48.960
<v Speaker 1>Cannibalism was part of, you know, it was very common to be a ritualistic practice in kind of like smaller indigenous communities.

00:41:49.699 --> 00:41:59.960
<v Speaker 1>But obviously at this time, these explorers were really blowing things outta proportion and anyone that they encountered, they were like, oh, they're cannibal.

00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:03.070
<v Speaker 1>Just so that they could kind of pillage rape and plunder, you know?

00:42:03.530 --> 00:42:05.150
<v Speaker 1>So everything is a little bit murky.

00:42:05.409 --> 00:42:07.869
<v Speaker 2>Can I share a quick Conor anecdote?

00:42:08.300 --> 00:42:08.590
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

00:42:09.010 --> 00:42:12.429
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna butcher this one cuz I don't remember many of the details, but it's kind of fun.

00:42:13.179 --> 00:42:14.230
<v Speaker 2>It's about Magellan.

00:42:14.500 --> 00:42:14.789
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:42:15.309 --> 00:42:15.869
<v Speaker 2>Magellan.

00:42:16.070 --> 00:42:23.739
<v Speaker 2>I think again, this I'm not fact checking this one whatsoever and I'm trying to remember this from, I've heard this years ago.

00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:25.500
<v Speaker 2>So bear with me here.

00:42:25.501 --> 00:42:30.900
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> so Magellan was in the Philippines or one of the Philippines islands here at that, that area of the world.

00:42:31.050 --> 00:42:31.340
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:43.659
<v Speaker 2>He was trying to like plant the flag, being like, this is an area like we're we're this is ours now or something mm-hmm<affirmative> and somebody just like one of the locals just went up to him and just like punched him in the face.

00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:44.579
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:46.780
<v Speaker 2>And you know, Magellan is like, how dare you?

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.739
<v Speaker 2>And then just like quickly realized that his life was in danger.

00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:57.570
<v Speaker 2>And so he has to like, he's like running away trying to get back to the ship and they're like throw they're like throwing like Spears and everything.

00:42:57.570 --> 00:42:58.530
<v Speaker 2>Just trying to kill Magellan.

00:42:58.690 --> 00:42:59.409
<v Speaker 2>Cause like, this guy.

00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.050
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:43:00.150 --> 00:43:03.090
<v Speaker 2>You know, he gets back, he reports like these people are just such.

00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:04.050
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:05.570
<v Speaker 2>We have to like go arrest them.

00:43:06.190 --> 00:43:21.559
<v Speaker 2>And so they send like money or something to like, uh, establish like a security force over there or something mm-hmm<affirmative> and then they end up using that those funds to build a statue of the guy that punched Magellan in the face.

00:43:21.860 --> 00:43:22.079
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

00:43:22.639 --> 00:43:23.480
<v Speaker 1><laugh> there you go.

00:43:23.780 --> 00:43:26.800
<v Speaker 2>So that story is completely butchered and not how it went down.

00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:29.400
<v Speaker 2>I just remember there's a statue of the guy that up Magellan.

00:43:29.949 --> 00:43:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Very good.

00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:30.960
<v Speaker 1>We love that.

00:43:31.269 --> 00:43:39.550
<v Speaker 1>Cannibalism was believed to be part of the culture in parts of the Solomon Islands, new Guinea news, the Congo, the Amazon basin.

00:43:40.369 --> 00:43:48.070
<v Speaker 1>And there was flesh markets in, in Menas just to name a few and I didn't know this, but Fiji was once called the cannibal aisles.

00:43:48.650 --> 00:43:49.269
<v Speaker 2>That's fun.

00:43:50.630 --> 00:43:55.710
<v Speaker 2>Probably it's it's probably one of those tactics like Iceland and Greenland swapped to confuse their enemies.

00:43:56.260 --> 00:43:56.550
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:43:56.869 --> 00:43:59.579
<v Speaker 2>I mean, are, do you wanna visit the cannibal islands?

00:44:00.139 --> 00:44:00.539
<v Speaker 2>I don't.

00:44:01.139 --> 00:44:01.940
<v Speaker 2>I do well.

00:44:01.940 --> 00:44:02.139
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:44:02.141 --> 00:44:02.860
<v Speaker 2>That's cuz you're weird.

00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.420
<v Speaker 2>Pretty good tactic to keep people clear.

00:44:05.889 --> 00:44:06.179
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:16.699
<v Speaker 1>So we're gonna talk about some of these, uh, specific peoples a little bit more in a minute, but I wanna talk for a second about ritual cannibalism quiz time, a you ready?

00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:33.690
<v Speaker 1>Mm-hmm<affirmative> what is it called when you consume a person from within the same community cannibalism, endo cannibalism, half credit, no ritual cannibalism was sacred and happened within a specific set of rules and boundaries depending on the people and the circumstances.

00:44:34.829 --> 00:44:38.329
<v Speaker 1>In many cases, the idea was to keep the dead within the tribe.

00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:43.559
<v Speaker 1>It also seems like a better faith than putting loved ones beneath the dirt and grime of the ground.

00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:51.599
<v Speaker 1>In the instances where cannibalism was happening in violent acts, it was often as a way to honor the lives of those captives.

00:44:51.619 --> 00:44:53.159
<v Speaker 1>It was seen as a religious ritual.

00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:53.760
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:44:54.099 --> 00:45:00.309
<v Speaker 1>So I'm not trying to deny that cannibalism did happen in some of these places, but I'm trying to set at the scene of that.

00:45:00.309 --> 00:45:02.909
<v Speaker 1>It was not a barbaric act.

00:45:02.911 --> 00:45:08.429
<v Speaker 1>It was like this beautiful ceremony, especially when it was tribe elder or somebody within the same tribe.

00:45:09.050 --> 00:45:12.909
<v Speaker 1>The idea was to keep them to keep their life, their soul within the tribe.

00:45:13.449 --> 00:45:17.989
<v Speaker 1>And it was seen as a better fate in a more beautiful fate than just sticking them in the dirty ground.

00:45:18.300 --> 00:45:18.590
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.659
<v Speaker 1>These acts were filled with extreme intention and spiritual belief.

00:45:23.050 --> 00:45:23.539
<v Speaker 1>Totally.

00:45:23.800 --> 00:45:41.900
<v Speaker 1>Unlike the very commonplace cannibalism throughout the west, which we're gonna talk about now, the irony of what we've discussed with Christopher Columbus is that in Europe, at the same time, the 15th century medicinal cannibalism was a fairly normal practice, which is kind of an understatement.

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.579
<v Speaker 1>It was a very normal practice.

00:45:45.769 --> 00:45:56.170
<v Speaker 1>Mumm is ground up mummified to body parts, turned into a powder and added to bombs, teas, other drinks, or just consumed as a powder.

00:45:56.440 --> 00:46:05.170
<v Speaker 1>What it is believed to be a cure for almost every physical sickness, including bruising, nausea, even epilepsy.

00:46:06.050 --> 00:46:06.369
<v Speaker 1>What, where

00:46:06.369 --> 00:46:07.530
<v Speaker 2>In the world are we right now?

00:46:07.699 --> 00:46:08.130
<v Speaker 2>We're in

00:46:08.130 --> 00:46:08.929
<v Speaker 1>Europe still.

00:46:08.931 --> 00:46:09.610
<v Speaker 1>Oh my goodness.

00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:15.360
<v Speaker 1>And so where were medieval Europeans getting all of these mummies to create Mumia Egypt?

00:46:15.550 --> 00:46:16.639
<v Speaker 1>It's a great question, Alan.

00:46:16.659 --> 00:46:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

00:46:17.230 --> 00:46:20.360
<v Speaker 1>They were being supplied by stolen mummies from Egypt.

00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:20.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh

00:46:20.679 --> 00:46:21.039
<v Speaker 2>For real.

00:46:21.219 --> 00:46:21.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:22.119
<v Speaker 2>That's terrible.

00:46:23.110 --> 00:46:28.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like the, the Fu am episode where they keep eating the little, exactly the little

00:46:28.170 --> 00:46:28.840
<v Speaker 1>Jerky mummies.

00:46:29.000 --> 00:46:34.719
<v Speaker 1>I was thinking that this morning when we were watching it, that is right until the demand grew out of control.

00:46:35.489 --> 00:46:41.030
<v Speaker 1>And at that point, producers of Mumia started to steal dead bodies from European graveyards.

00:46:41.389 --> 00:46:41.789
<v Speaker 1>They should just

00:46:41.789 --> 00:46:42.429
<v Speaker 2>Started there.

00:46:42.431 --> 00:46:47.869
<v Speaker 2>How the hell would people it's like the uh, the powdered rhino horn.

00:46:48.389 --> 00:46:48.389
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:53.590
<v Speaker 2>Once it's been powdered, you have absolutely no way of knowing it was actually rhino horn.

00:46:53.809 --> 00:46:54.349
<v Speaker 2>Is that something

00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:54.829
<v Speaker 1>People eat?

00:46:55.489 --> 00:47:02.099
<v Speaker 2>Oh, uh, so rhino horn in traditional Chinese medicine mm-hmm<affirmative> is a cure.

00:47:02.250 --> 00:47:17.650
<v Speaker 2>It's a cure all, uh, for many things, but mainly it's like, uh, an aphrodisiac, but once it's powdered, well, once it's powdered, it's the same molecular compounds of like hair<laugh>, you know, it doesn't absolutely nothing.

00:47:17.780 --> 00:47:18.130
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:47:18.469 --> 00:47:26.650
<v Speaker 2>But obvi that's like one of the reasons why rhinos were hunted nearly to extinction because of these stupid traditional

00:47:26.809 --> 00:47:27.090
<v Speaker 1>Medicines.

00:47:27.489 --> 00:47:41.719
<v Speaker 1>Interesting quoting from laughs quarterly quote, mummy was a significant commodity by the 18th century, get Jim mummy taken in 10 for bleeding or used in plasters against venomous bites or joint pain.

00:47:42.219 --> 00:47:58.670
<v Speaker 1>So significant in fact that there was also a thriving trade in fraudulent mummy made from the poor criminals or animals in 2007 Rex were found in a per Parisian pharmacy and said to belong to Jonah Ark were shown to come from an Egyptian cat.

00:47:58.719 --> 00:47:59.070
<v Speaker 1>Mummy.

00:48:00.989 --> 00:48:00.989
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:48:01.349 --> 00:48:05.630
<v Speaker 1>So relics that were found that were thought to belong to Jonah bark, like part of her personal

00:48:06.429 --> 00:48:10.230
<v Speaker 2>Ary, they're just done like the Paris version of RiteAid, right.

00:48:10.260 --> 00:48:11.869
<v Speaker 1>From obviously a long time ago.

00:48:12.449 --> 00:48:16.429
<v Speaker 1>And it was actually says 2007 that's when they found them,

00:48:16.699 --> 00:48:18.139
<v Speaker 2>They found an old, old

00:48:19.019 --> 00:48:19.139
<v Speaker 1>Pharmacy.

00:48:19.730 --> 00:48:20.019
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:48:20.021 --> 00:48:21.699
<v Speaker 1>They found what they thought was Jonah.

00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.179
<v Speaker 1>A's like personal apothecary set.

00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:24.940
<v Speaker 1>Got it.

00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:31.659
<v Speaker 1>And it was actually made from an Egyptian cat, mummy, not a human mummy.

00:48:32.199 --> 00:48:36.619
<v Speaker 2>I'd like to think that it's just a pharmacy that's been around for a very long time.

00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:41.179
<v Speaker 2>And like, you know how, when people don't come pick up their prescription, it just sits on the shelf.

00:48:41.329 --> 00:48:41.619
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:42.699
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, yeah, Jon

00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:44.420
<v Speaker 1>Nova never came to get her medicine.

00:48:44.820 --> 00:48:45.539
<v Speaker 1>Cuz she got burned.

00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:47.059
<v Speaker 1>She got burned.

00:48:47.739 --> 00:48:54.449
<v Speaker 1>Uh, she called in a prescription for her Egyptian cat, mommy potion<laugh> and this was a short phase, the use of Mumia.

00:48:54.630 --> 00:49:00.329
<v Speaker 1>It was even listed in the Merck index and there are records of Mumia being used for over a century.

00:49:00.630 --> 00:49:01.809
<v Speaker 1>What's the Merck index.

00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:04.489
<v Speaker 1>It's like a Grey's anatomy type book in the medical world.

00:49:04.599 --> 00:49:07.130
<v Speaker 1>It's like Grey's anatomy, you know like that, the show.

00:49:07.309 --> 00:49:08.969
<v Speaker 1>No, that's the name of the medical book.

00:49:09.309 --> 00:49:10.969
<v Speaker 2>Oh I have no, I, I have no,

00:49:10.969 --> 00:49:12.650
<v Speaker 1>I, I it's like the official anatomy book.

00:49:13.639 --> 00:49:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Really the same with like me.

00:49:14.550 --> 00:49:16.440
<v Speaker 1>It's like the official like treatment book.

00:49:17.139 --> 00:49:17.760
<v Speaker 1>Oh it's a

00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:18.559
<v Speaker 2>Textbook yeah.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:18.880
<v Speaker 1>Idea.

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:21.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, obviously they're updated over time.

00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:21.480
<v Speaker 1>That

00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.519
<v Speaker 2>Makes so much more sense because I know

00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:25.039
<v Speaker 1>Like it's like the DSM Dr.

00:49:25.190 --> 00:49:25.480
<v Speaker 1>Gray

00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Is a character on the show.

00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:27.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:49:27.360 --> 00:49:28.559
<v Speaker 2>He's like, why do we care about her body?

00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:32.320
<v Speaker 1>No<laugh> but wait, there's more.

00:49:32.739 --> 00:49:36.030
<v Speaker 1>So at this time in Europe, people also used for

00:49:36.030 --> 00:49:39.269
<v Speaker 2>Only for only five payments of 1995.

00:49:39.369 --> 00:49:40.510
<v Speaker 2>You too can get a mummy.

00:49:40.519 --> 00:49:40.869
<v Speaker 2>There

00:49:40.869 --> 00:49:41.150
<v Speaker 1>You go.

00:49:41.809 --> 00:50:05.219
<v Speaker 1>At this time in Europe, people also use liquid and powdered blood human livers, brain oil and other body parts as medicine, human fat was also seen as an incredibly important remedy, broken bones among other ailments in Germany between the 16 and 18 hundreds executioners would make extra money by selling body parts for use in medicines.

00:50:05.730 --> 00:50:06.019
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:50:06.980 --> 00:50:07.300
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

00:50:07.820 --> 00:50:13.539
<v Speaker 2>I feel like this is a, we, we talked about this during Nero mane.

00:50:13.541 --> 00:50:25.210
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> how the buying and selling of human remains was, uh, has been like a, a staple of society since like inception.

00:50:25.670 --> 00:50:25.889
<v Speaker 2>Yes.

00:50:26.449 --> 00:50:33.489
<v Speaker 2>Uh, and so this case, the executioners kill the person, I guess they had to do double duty and like dispose of the bodies as

00:50:33.489 --> 00:50:33.610
<v Speaker 1>Well.

00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:34.250
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:50:34.251 --> 00:50:44.079
<v Speaker 1>Or it's like in a squid game where they kind of had a black market thing going on where they, you know, paid off the burial guy and took the body and repurposed it.

00:50:44.349 --> 00:50:44.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:50:44.780 --> 00:50:47.320
<v Speaker 2>In that case, they're selling organs back then.

00:50:47.320 --> 00:50:49.840
<v Speaker 2>I don't think they could do organ transplants yet.

00:50:50.300 --> 00:50:50.519
<v Speaker 2>No,

00:50:51.360 --> 00:50:52.719
<v Speaker 1>They're, they're selling it for these remedies.

00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:54.639
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, it's, it's the same thing.

00:50:54.641 --> 00:51:05.150
<v Speaker 2>Just a different era where it's like, yeah, we're selling a part of the body for medical purposes in this case, it's just like, enjoy your liver juice to cure your broken bones.

00:51:05.260 --> 00:51:05.550
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:12.670
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, it's like a weird it's I feel like it's a weird side hustle, but probably it wasn't even taboo.

00:51:13.389 --> 00:51:21.820
<v Speaker 2>It's just like, that's the expected part of their income where like the executioner's boss gets to pay them less because they're also working for tips.

00:51:22.750 --> 00:51:23.099
<v Speaker 1>Right.

00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:24.460
<v Speaker 1>And it's very similar.

00:51:24.659 --> 00:51:46.619
<v Speaker 1>I feel like, like we had this conversation a while ago with Adam bashing of dark interiors on the podcast, but there is like this taboo now even about like human body parts in general and having them when, to exactly, to your point like the buying and selling of human dead bodies was a huge thing throughout the history of humans.

00:51:46.730 --> 00:51:53.530
<v Speaker 1>It's only the last few hundred years that these sort of taboos and societal looking down on those things has happened.

00:51:54.340 --> 00:52:08.570
<v Speaker 1>There is a longstanding history of medical cannibalism in Europe, the laughs quarterly article points out that during this time, most of the use of body parts was for sympathetic medicine, which I thought was very interesting.

00:52:08.570 --> 00:52:09.130
<v Speaker 1>What does that mean?

00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:16.760
<v Speaker 1>Meaning skulls would be used to treat migraines and dizziness fat to prevent bruising, powdered blood, to treat bleeding.

00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:25.199
<v Speaker 1>So their sort of idea of medicine at the time was like, oh, if you use one skull, you can treat this head thing.

00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Or if you use blood, you could treat this blood thing.

00:52:28.219 --> 00:52:28.559
<v Speaker 1>Got it.

00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:29.119
<v Speaker 1>It's like,

00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:38.670
<v Speaker 2>Honestly it's like in video games where it's like, okay, to upgrade your chest armor, you need to break down other chest armors to put in the parts.

00:52:38.880 --> 00:52:39.230
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:52:39.889 --> 00:52:40.110
<v Speaker 2>Wow.

00:52:40.130 --> 00:52:41.349
<v Speaker 2>That's hi.

00:52:41.351 --> 00:52:41.909
<v Speaker 2>I got a headache.

00:52:42.309 --> 00:52:43.030
<v Speaker 2>Gotta eat brain.

00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:43.469
<v Speaker 2>Right.

00:52:44.250 --> 00:52:52.260
<v Speaker 1>At this time it was also believed that the more violently somebody was killed or died, the more packed with nutrients, their body parts would be what?

00:52:52.489 --> 00:52:52.780
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:52:52.780 --> 00:52:56.139
<v Speaker 1>So if you like died peacefully in your bed, it wasn't as useless.

00:52:56.269 --> 00:52:56.619
<v Speaker 1>Right.

00:52:56.621 --> 00:53:00.300
<v Speaker 1>Appealing as if you were like executed or something.

00:53:01.170 --> 00:53:15.170
<v Speaker 1>There's a concept here almost similar to what we discussed on the zombie episode where people thought that the vitality of the body stuck around for a bit that the spirit, or was still in the body for a while after death.

00:53:15.590 --> 00:53:23.090
<v Speaker 1>So the sooner that you could harvest the organs or body parts, the bigger your chance was at harvesting and consuming some of that ethereal power.

00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:24.010
<v Speaker 2>Hmm.

00:53:24.409 --> 00:53:26.530
<v Speaker 2>I wonder how much of that.

00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:29.289
<v Speaker 2>It still has to be fresh to be consumed, you know?

00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.050
<v Speaker 2>Like what, like what's the causality here?

00:53:32.389 --> 00:53:36.400
<v Speaker 2>Was it just that like after a certain amount of time, like consuming these things was

00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:37.599
<v Speaker 1>Unsafe?

00:53:38.260 --> 00:53:38.480
<v Speaker 1>No.

00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:49.119
<v Speaker 1>I mean maybe, maybe that was like the origin of it, but yeah, they, it was like, remember in the zombie episode, how they believe that after death, there was like a period of time where the soul was still there.

00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:56.550
<v Speaker 1>It's the same idea or there's like, and it might be the root of that might be to your point before they of kind of understood the science of it, that the body would go bad.

00:53:56.949 --> 00:53:56.949
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

00:53:57.329 --> 00:54:09.349
<v Speaker 1>It might be kind of rooted in that, but it was the same belief that there was like an expiration date on these like almost like magical powers that, that they would get from the, using the blood or using the brain.

00:54:09.351 --> 00:54:09.630
<v Speaker 1>Right.

00:54:09.829 --> 00:54:12.429
<v Speaker 1>Makes sense that it's not, there's a shelf life, I guess is the point.

00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:12.829
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:54:13.329 --> 00:54:17.780
<v Speaker 1>And of course there is a very fine line between VAM and cannibalism.

00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:19.219
<v Speaker 1>So let me just say this.

00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:22.420
<v Speaker 1>Can you say VA, say it again, VAM, it's a cool word.

00:54:23.059 --> 00:54:27.460
<v Speaker 1><laugh>, there's quite a bit of blood sucking going on at this time.

00:54:28.179 --> 00:54:30.820
<v Speaker 1>What of blood from both the living and the dead?

00:54:31.130 --> 00:54:35.780
<v Speaker 1>Something that Europeans alive during the Renaissance thought could be a bit of a fountain of youth.

00:54:36.110 --> 00:54:44.659
<v Speaker 1>There was even a recipe recovered from a Franciscan apothecary in 1679 for something called blood jam.

00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:54.210
<v Speaker 1>Ooh, mm-hmm<affirmative> here is a quote and that it, it in this, uh, is referred to like dried and sticky, massive blood that it's already been processed to be that.

00:54:54.389 --> 00:54:54.610
<v Speaker 1>So

00:54:54.610 --> 00:54:56.090
<v Speaker 2>They've, they've already made the jam.

00:54:56.570 --> 00:55:18.679
<v Speaker 1>No, they've made it into they've like hardened it and done some things, but we're gonna pick up like halfway through quote, place it upon a flat smooth table of soft wood and cut it into thin little slices, allowing its watery part to drip away when it is no longer dripping, place it on a stove on the same table and stir it into a batter with a knife.

00:55:18.909 --> 00:55:35.110
<v Speaker 1>What, when it is absolutely dry place, it immediately in a very warm, bronze mortar and pound it, forcing it through with a SI of finest silk when it has all been saved, seal it in a glass jar, renew it in the spring of every year and quote

00:55:36.030 --> 00:55:36.030
<v Speaker 2><laugh>.

00:55:36.670 --> 00:55:43.750
<v Speaker 2>Uh, so somewhere along the line, someone was standing over someone's shoulder saying you're making the blood jam wrong.

00:55:45.070 --> 00:55:45.070
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

00:55:45.739 --> 00:55:48.349
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this that's not how I read it on Google.

00:55:48.769 --> 00:55:50.460
<v Speaker 2>Oh my God, let me, you, Jesus.

00:55:50.619 --> 00:55:51.699
<v Speaker 2>I have to do everything myself.

00:55:52.300 --> 00:56:10.260
<v Speaker 1><laugh> king Charles II is said to have paid 6,000 pounds, which at the time was probably like frigging a billion dollars to a professor to craft a recipe for him for a distilled powdered skull, which became known as quote unquote, the King's drops outta.

00:56:10.610 --> 00:56:11.489
<v Speaker 2>Do you know what to make of this?

00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:18.849
<v Speaker 2>The fact that he commissioned a recipe leads me to believe that there one didn't exist.

00:56:19.420 --> 00:56:19.769
<v Speaker 2>Right?

00:56:20.030 --> 00:56:21.570
<v Speaker 2>So he's just like, you know what?

00:56:21.929 --> 00:56:24.769
<v Speaker 2>I want skull you sir.

00:56:25.230 --> 00:56:28.250
<v Speaker 2>Figure out how to make a good skull recipe.

00:56:28.989 --> 00:56:30.409
<v Speaker 1>It was for medicinal use.

00:56:30.610 --> 00:56:35.159
<v Speaker 1>I want a headache medicine made out of the finest skull because I'm the king.

00:56:35.420 --> 00:56:35.840
<v Speaker 2>Got it.

00:56:36.550 --> 00:56:36.840
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

00:56:36.929 --> 00:56:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Which

00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:38.039
<v Speaker 1>I think is important.

00:56:38.280 --> 00:56:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Cuz I wanna pause and check in with you because at the beginning of our cannibalism exploration, you had said, right.

00:56:45.721 --> 00:56:49.559
<v Speaker 1>That in your mind cannibalism was like the act of killing or torturing.

00:56:49.710 --> 00:56:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:56:50.340 --> 00:56:54.070
<v Speaker 1>But when we're talking about cannibalism in Europe, it's very, um, muted.

00:56:54.070 --> 00:56:54.309
<v Speaker 1>Right?

00:56:54.340 --> 00:56:57.269
<v Speaker 1>It's it's kind of like, we're gonna turn blood into blood powder.

00:56:57.271 --> 00:56:58.989
<v Speaker 1>Like you're not nodding on a femur.

00:56:59.000 --> 00:56:59.349
<v Speaker 1>Right.

00:56:59.349 --> 00:57:02.670
<v Speaker 2>They're just eating people post postmortem.

00:57:02.670 --> 00:57:04.269
<v Speaker 2>They're just, they got these bodies.

00:57:04.579 --> 00:57:04.869
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:57:04.900 --> 00:57:05.550
<v Speaker 2>They're bored.

00:57:05.550 --> 00:57:06.750
<v Speaker 2>They don't have TV yet.

00:57:07.309 --> 00:57:09.269
<v Speaker 2><laugh> so they're just figuring out fun things to do with them.

00:57:09.980 --> 00:57:10.269
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:57:10.271 --> 00:57:13.980
<v Speaker 1>But does that sort of like defy how you thought about cannibalism before?

00:57:15.139 --> 00:57:15.900
<v Speaker 2>Uh, yeah.

00:57:16.000 --> 00:57:16.780
<v Speaker 2>I'd say that's fair.

00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:26.420
<v Speaker 2>So are, are we going to include recipes in like the description for patrons, for patrons, for the Kings drops and blood jam?

00:57:26.570 --> 00:57:26.860
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

00:57:27.710 --> 00:57:34.019
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna talk about this a bit later, but it's interesting because cannibalism is actually not illegal.

00:57:35.130 --> 00:57:37.019
<v Speaker 1>What is illegal is defying.

00:57:37.099 --> 00:57:44.179
<v Speaker 1>A corpse is necrophilia obviously is murder obviously, but in the us and most Europe, it's not illegal.

00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:50.090
<v Speaker 1>If you do it without consent, of course it's could be assault or you know, it falls under other charges.

00:57:50.090 --> 00:57:55.050
<v Speaker 1>But if somebody is consenting to it, then there's nothing legally wrong with it.

00:57:55.989 --> 00:57:56.210
<v Speaker 1>Huh?

00:57:57.289 --> 00:57:58.730
<v Speaker 2><laugh> that's a surprising one.

00:57:58.731 --> 00:58:02.170
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> I I'm just imagining the founding fathers.

00:58:02.170 --> 00:58:04.489
<v Speaker 2>Just like going through a checklist, slavery.

00:58:04.760 --> 00:58:07.800
<v Speaker 2>Fine cannibalism gay marriage.

00:58:07.980 --> 00:58:08.920
<v Speaker 2>No, no, no, no,

00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:09.119
<v Speaker 1>No.

00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:14.840
<v Speaker 1><laugh> so I wanna spend a little bit of time talking about the foray people of Papa new Guinea.

00:58:15.190 --> 00:58:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:17.280
<v Speaker 2>Where, where, where,

00:58:17.329 --> 00:58:18.280
<v Speaker 1>Where is new Guinea?

00:58:18.699 --> 00:58:24.039
<v Speaker 1>So it's like right north of Australia right next to Indonesia, classic Oceana.

00:58:24.460 --> 00:58:30.190
<v Speaker 1>So the foray people believed that the eating of ceased relatives would cleanse their spirits.

00:58:31.090 --> 00:58:41.510
<v Speaker 1>In this instance, it was finery and ritualistic cannibalism, meaning that individuals could make a will so to speak about what they wanted to happen to their body after death.

00:58:42.090 --> 00:58:44.949
<v Speaker 1>So for some reason you didn't want your body to be consumed after death.

00:58:44.969 --> 00:58:45.349
<v Speaker 1>No problem.

00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:51.940
<v Speaker 1>But in some cases people did to ask for others, their family, mostly to consume their body after death.

00:58:51.940 --> 00:58:54.139
<v Speaker 1>It was like a oh, something that they wanted to happen.

00:58:54.289 --> 00:58:55.099
<v Speaker 1>This is literally

00:58:55.099 --> 00:59:08.179
<v Speaker 2>The polar opposite of Judaism, where if you are in the, even just the presence of a dead body, if you've touched a dead body, your spirit and your body is now tainted and needs to be cleansed before you can move forward.

00:59:08.789 --> 00:59:12.210
<v Speaker 1>But that's like rooted in like a hygienic reason probably.

00:59:12.210 --> 00:59:12.530
<v Speaker 1>Right?

00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:13.449
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

00:59:13.480 --> 00:59:13.769
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:59:13.809 --> 00:59:21.170
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I'm just thinking about like the things you've told us in the past about being kosher and how that was really tied to like health and safety of food.

00:59:21.559 --> 00:59:21.849
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

00:59:22.130 --> 00:59:28.289
<v Speaker 2>Actually, now that you mention it, so like the way that the body is purified after coming in contact with the dead.

00:59:29.019 --> 00:59:37.119
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, say you step into a cemetery cuz that counts, uh, at least for the, the coem your body is now defiled and impure.

00:59:37.460 --> 00:59:47.119
<v Speaker 2>And the way that it is purified is by going through the process of MIFA mm-hmm<affirmative>, which is a ritual bath, which is done in water, flowing from the earth.

00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:47.599
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

00:59:48.219 --> 00:59:52.590
<v Speaker 2>So it has to be like an, is like a natural water source, natural water source.

00:59:52.590 --> 00:59:55.869
<v Speaker 2>Like they have these like MFAs in Israel and whatnot.

00:59:56.059 --> 00:59:59.389
<v Speaker 2>Like the, the holy area is where you it's like an yeah.

00:59:59.500 --> 01:00:01.269
<v Speaker 2>Underground wellspring.

01:00:02.070 --> 01:00:04.789
<v Speaker 2>Uh, and you just like go in and then a bunch of naked men wash you.

01:00:05.250 --> 01:00:07.710
<v Speaker 1>How are Jewish people process after death?

01:00:08.269 --> 01:00:11.019
<v Speaker 1>They, they assume they don't, then they're not buried in cemeteries.

01:00:11.090 --> 01:00:11.940
<v Speaker 1>Traditionally

01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:19.260
<v Speaker 2>The, the, the processing of Jewish remains is a very minimalist approach.

01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:23.980
<v Speaker 2>So there's no embalming of any sort mm-hmm<affirmative> you don't eat.

01:00:23.981 --> 01:00:26.619
<v Speaker 2>You're not even supposed to be put into a coffin really.

01:00:26.829 --> 01:00:36.099
<v Speaker 2>Especially now, like when we picture like a modern coffin with like the seals and the padding and everything, if it's gonna be a coffin, it's gonna be like a wooden box.

01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:38.420
<v Speaker 1>So it is like an earth burial still.

01:00:38.570 --> 01:00:38.860
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:00:38.860 --> 01:00:39.099
<v Speaker 1>Like

01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:41.260
<v Speaker 2>The most traditional is like a sack.

01:00:41.369 --> 01:00:43.500
<v Speaker 2>They throw you in a sack, they throw you in the ground.

01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:52.289
<v Speaker 1>So can I ask a question then in like Brooklyn, New York say, which is a, a very large Jewish population in New York in general, the city, very large Jewish population.

01:00:52.710 --> 01:00:55.889
<v Speaker 1>If you are buried in the ground yep.

01:00:56.409 --> 01:00:56.929
<v Speaker 1>Your family members.

01:00:57.289 --> 01:01:02.730
<v Speaker 1>So your, your, you know, your cousin passes away, you bury them in the ground in a cemetery.

01:01:03.050 --> 01:01:03.050
<v Speaker 1>Yep.

01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:15.960
<v Speaker 1>Then how gonna make your city, do you have a proper MIFA after is, or is now in a modern sense you can bath in a different way or do you need to like literally go and find like a natural water source?

01:01:16.420 --> 01:01:17.480
<v Speaker 2>That's a great question.

01:01:18.139 --> 01:01:26.150
<v Speaker 2>See what happens when we Google MIFA NYC and I just Googled and the first top hits there's like four or round Manhattan.

01:01:26.949 --> 01:01:28.869
<v Speaker 2>A cluster of five, right in Williamsburg.

01:01:29.300 --> 01:01:29.590
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:01:30.030 --> 01:01:32.190
<v Speaker 2>Uh, the very first one there's ones.

01:01:32.469 --> 01:01:33.590
<v Speaker 2>The, apparently there's a MIFA right.

01:01:33.769 --> 01:01:35.869
<v Speaker 2>It says right by the central park zoo.

01:01:36.469 --> 01:01:36.550
<v Speaker 2><laugh>

01:01:37.130 --> 01:01:40.269
<v Speaker 1>So I assume it's, it's probably like some sort of pool, obviously.

01:01:40.271 --> 01:01:42.150
<v Speaker 1>It's there's no like natural spring water.

01:01:42.150 --> 01:01:44.309
<v Speaker 1>That's filtering under the grounds of New York.

01:01:44.449 --> 01:01:52.739
<v Speaker 2>So, you know, this, the, I, I just clicked on one that's on the, the upper east side and it, yeah, it looks like a, a spa, like, like a spa, like a pool.

01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:56.139
<v Speaker 2>And I'm sure it's fed from a natural source.

01:01:56.150 --> 01:01:56.500
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:01:56.980 --> 01:02:01.980
<v Speaker 2>Uh, from like the groundwater pumped up from the groundwater cuz you know, everyone's stickler for tradition.

01:02:02.210 --> 01:02:02.500
<v Speaker 2>Sure.

01:02:03.579 --> 01:02:05.300
<v Speaker 2>Archaic practice is brought into the modern age.

01:02:05.860 --> 01:02:06.809
<v Speaker 2><laugh> uh, I'm sorry.

01:02:06.811 --> 01:02:07.889
<v Speaker 2>This is just so interesting.

01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:11.730
<v Speaker 2>This comes with a full MVA checklist PDF of how to prepare.

01:02:12.190 --> 01:02:12.409
<v Speaker 1>Wow.

01:02:13.250 --> 01:02:13.449
<v Speaker 1>Reades some

01:02:13.829 --> 01:02:16.889
<v Speaker 2>Remove any body hair that is generally removed.

01:02:17.559 --> 01:02:19.610
<v Speaker 2>Ideally not on the day of immersion.

01:02:19.710 --> 01:02:21.130
<v Speaker 2>Oh, cuz they don't want hair in their pool.

01:02:21.510 --> 01:02:22.690
<v Speaker 2>Cut and file nails.

01:02:22.989 --> 01:02:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Remove nail Polish, remove makeup, clean ears and hearing holes, hearing holes.

01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:30.239
<v Speaker 2>Ah, interesting.

01:02:30.460 --> 01:02:36.320
<v Speaker 2>So this also would only apply to women so that women can get MiFis as well.

01:02:36.320 --> 01:02:39.119
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> cause I don't think men are allowed to get piercings.

01:02:39.760 --> 01:02:43.519
<v Speaker 2>Uh, again, we're talking very traditional Judaism like Orthodox.

01:02:43.521 --> 01:02:43.719
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:02:44.070 --> 01:02:45.239
<v Speaker 1>Have you ever had a Micah?

01:02:46.079 --> 01:02:46.559
<v Speaker 2>Uh, no.

01:02:46.840 --> 01:02:55.510
<v Speaker 2>I refuse, uh, blow and clean nose wash hair, clean teeth parentheses use toothpick slash floss.

01:02:56.110 --> 01:02:57.869
<v Speaker 2>Oh clean breast nipples,

01:02:58.250 --> 01:03:00.110
<v Speaker 1>Breast nipples, nipples.

01:03:00.690 --> 01:03:02.070
<v Speaker 1>As opposed to those other nipples,

01:03:02.070 --> 01:03:02.750
<v Speaker 2>Those other nipples.

01:03:03.110 --> 01:03:07.590
<v Speaker 2>What I don't<laugh> what wash genitals also internally.

01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:08.980
<v Speaker 1>That's very dangerous.

01:03:09.219 --> 01:03:09.300
<v Speaker 1>Actually.

01:03:09.300 --> 01:03:10.099
<v Speaker 1>You should not do that.

01:03:10.101 --> 01:03:10.340
<v Speaker 1>Please.

01:03:10.340 --> 01:03:10.619
<v Speaker 1>Don't

01:03:10.619 --> 01:03:10.860
<v Speaker 2>Do that.

01:03:11.079 --> 01:03:14.219
<v Speaker 2>And then important note from the onset of a woman's period,

01:03:14.940 --> 01:03:14.940
<v Speaker 1>Right?

01:03:15.420 --> 01:03:15.780
<v Speaker 1>We're not it's okay.

01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:16.619
<v Speaker 1>You don't have to read it.

01:03:16.621 --> 01:03:18.460
<v Speaker 1>This is, we can assume it's problematic.

01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:19.380
<v Speaker 1>Oh, it's very

01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:19.940
<v Speaker 2>Problematic.

01:03:20.250 --> 01:03:23.139
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for that riveting insight into MICUs.

01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:37.260
<v Speaker 1>So let's jump back if we will, to the foray people of Papa new Guinea, unfortunately, despite the fact that we've established there's, you know, very, there's a lot of very beautiful meaning behind their cannibalism.

01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:43.730
<v Speaker 1>It resulted in the spread of cur, which is a fatal disease caused by cannibalism.

01:03:44.159 --> 01:03:50.329
<v Speaker 1>Kuru is thought to be caused by the eating of the human brain, by another human caused by those pons.

01:03:50.331 --> 01:03:50.730
<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

01:03:50.731 --> 01:04:00.329
<v Speaker 1>Because of the pons that are within our brains, kuru is a brain disease, very similar, uh, to what a said before, very similar to Matt cow disease.

01:04:00.670 --> 01:04:05.840
<v Speaker 1>And it's derived from a foray word for shaking because the first sign is tremors.

01:04:06.619 --> 01:04:09.880
<v Speaker 1>So crew and foray means like shaking your tremors.

01:04:09.880 --> 01:04:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:10.639
<v Speaker 1>Cuz your brain

01:04:10.639 --> 01:04:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Is fricking dissolving.

01:04:11.630 --> 01:04:11.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:04:12.340 --> 01:04:17.519
<v Speaker 1>What's interesting is that some of the foray people have developed a resistance to crew over time.

01:04:17.521 --> 01:04:31.510
<v Speaker 1>Like they've evolved kind of past it quoting from Phil Edwards in the box article quote<affirmative> the foray were adapting to cannibalism with natural selection, possibly playing a role in reducing their susceptibility to the disease.

01:04:32.230 --> 01:04:40.550
<v Speaker 1>Scientists have been trying to study this further, but in recent decades, cannibalism has been declining among the foray because of changing social Moores and laws.

01:04:41.010 --> 01:04:43.750
<v Speaker 1>If that continues, maybe wiped out entirely.

01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:51.699
<v Speaker 1>So there's two other things I wanna mention before we sort of round out our early history and mid-story sections.

01:04:51.929 --> 01:04:52.219
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

01:04:53.480 --> 01:05:04.340
<v Speaker 1>The first is colonial America, a 2013, excavation of Jamestown revealed evidence of cannibalism from colonial America.

01:05:05.829 --> 01:05:11.889
<v Speaker 1>The skull of a 14 year old girl was found with markings that would indicate that she had been eaten by other people.

01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:14.929
<v Speaker 1>Very similar to those Neanderthal bones, right?

01:05:15.679 --> 01:05:24.570
<v Speaker 1>Archeologists, believe that this happened in the winter of 1609, which of course demonstrates how difficult survival was for early colonizers.

01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:30.320
<v Speaker 1>It leads us perfectly into the discussion of cannibalism and the indigenous people of America.

01:05:30.949 --> 01:05:39.320
<v Speaker 1>This winter, the winter of 1609 is also known as the starving time because of how many, uh, colonizers died during that time.

01:05:40.010 --> 01:05:40.880
<v Speaker 1>Those poor,

01:05:41.030 --> 01:05:42.280
<v Speaker 2>Poor colonizers

01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:52.070
<v Speaker 1><laugh> around this one, man was tortured until he admitted that he killed salted and ate his pregnant wife.

01:05:52.989 --> 01:05:52.989
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:05:53.590 --> 01:05:57.309
<v Speaker 2>Uh, whatever, not his crime if he even committed it.

01:05:57.311 --> 01:05:59.070
<v Speaker 2>But as soon as he said he was tortured until

01:05:59.070 --> 01:05:59.550
<v Speaker 1>Confession.

01:05:59.550 --> 01:05:59.989
<v Speaker 1>Exactly.

01:06:00.090 --> 01:06:07.260
<v Speaker 1>And I literally have a note, remember that we cannot trust confessions that are the result of torture or right.

01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:08.460
<v Speaker 1>That that's right.

01:06:08.710 --> 01:06:12.539
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna talk now Alan, about what I believe to be one of your favorite topics.

01:06:13.260 --> 01:06:18.260
<v Speaker 1>What, what, what we're going to talk about native American folklore and the, when Togo, Hey, here we go.

01:06:18.380 --> 01:06:18.780
<v Speaker 1>I like this.

01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:32.219
<v Speaker 1><laugh> a, when Togo is a mythological CR and, and also I'm gonna pause we, and I'm gonna quickly say we do have an early episode very early on the, when to go that exists.

01:06:32.550 --> 01:06:38.500
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna cover a little bit better now because we've done a hundred episodes now and we know a little bit more about what we're doing.

01:06:38.889 --> 01:06:42.610
<v Speaker 2>This is going to be, are we doing a deep dive into the win again?

01:06:42.630 --> 01:06:43.449
<v Speaker 2>No, absolutely.

01:06:43.650 --> 01:06:43.650
<v Speaker 2>No.

01:06:43.869 --> 01:06:47.250
<v Speaker 1>So certainly a topic we could redo again in the future.

01:06:47.730 --> 01:06:51.010
<v Speaker 2>I think we could do one on native American myth.

01:06:51.070 --> 01:06:52.769
<v Speaker 2>Mm-hmm<affirmative> native American folk.

01:06:52.969 --> 01:06:53.329
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

01:06:53.429 --> 01:06:54.489
<v Speaker 2>Native American horror.

01:06:54.510 --> 01:06:55.769
<v Speaker 2>We can finally we can find something.

01:06:56.039 --> 01:06:56.329
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:06:56.510 --> 01:07:00.530
<v Speaker 1>And if you're someone with a native American background and you wanna come on and talk to us, reach out,

01:07:01.139 --> 01:07:01.920
<v Speaker 2>That'd be incredible.

01:07:01.989 --> 01:07:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:07:02.739 --> 01:07:04.840
<v Speaker 2>If you are a win to go<laugh>,

01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:15.679
<v Speaker 1>Here's our number a, when to go is a mythological creature from folklore originated by the indigenous people of what is now Canada and the United States.

01:07:15.940 --> 01:07:18.079
<v Speaker 1>Mainly Algonquin speaking tribes.

01:07:18.389 --> 01:07:23.230
<v Speaker 1>It's associated with the deepest part of winter when famine and starvation were common.

01:07:23.940 --> 01:07:28.269
<v Speaker 1>Very often the, when to go is depicted as an evil or malevolent entity.

01:07:28.750 --> 01:07:28.989
<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah.

01:07:28.990 --> 01:07:30.150
<v Speaker 1>It is physically.

01:07:30.150 --> 01:07:41.190
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes it appears with humanoid features and sometimes with animal features and sometimes a combination of both though, I found this out, which is, was a new kind of thing that I just learned about the, when to go.

01:07:42.199 --> 01:07:44.900
<v Speaker 1>And it's original kind of native American roots.

01:07:45.519 --> 01:07:52.340
<v Speaker 1>The, when Togo was strictly humanoid, it started to merge with WOL mythology when Europeans got involved.

01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:56.780
<v Speaker 1>And that's when we see versions of it that have animal animal characteristics,

01:07:56.969 --> 01:08:00.219
<v Speaker 2>Like it's like the, the, the tag, right.

01:08:00.679 --> 01:08:06.210
<v Speaker 2>That's which is my personal favorite, big, giant zombie moose.

01:08:06.579 --> 01:08:10.409
<v Speaker 2>Right by pedal zombie moose with claws.

01:08:10.480 --> 01:08:10.769
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:08:11.079 --> 01:08:11.369
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:08:11.670 --> 01:08:21.649
<v Speaker 1>The presence of the Wendigo can sometimes result in possession, driving people to appeal extreme hunger, greed, murderous urges, and the urge to cannibalize others.

01:08:22.189 --> 01:08:45.149
<v Speaker 1>Here's the, from basil H Johnston, an OJI boy teacher and scholar quote, the, when to go was GA to the point of emaciation its desiccated skin pulled tightly over its bones with its bones, pushing out against its skin, its complexion, the Ash gray of death and its eyes pushed deep into their sockets.

01:08:45.770 --> 01:08:56.949
<v Speaker 1>The, when Togo looked like a gaunt skeleton recently disinter from the grave, what lips it had were tattered and bloody unclean and suffering from separation of the flesh.

01:08:57.449 --> 01:09:04.739
<v Speaker 1>The, when Togo gave off a strange and eerie odor of decay and decomposition of death and corruption, it's pretty

01:09:04.739 --> 01:09:05.579
<v Speaker 2>Metal, very

01:09:05.859 --> 01:09:05.859
<v Speaker 1>Metal.

01:09:06.479 --> 01:09:06.699
<v Speaker 1>So

01:09:06.729 --> 01:09:09.579
<v Speaker 2>Basically it's a zombie, it's a

01:09:09.739 --> 01:09:19.140
<v Speaker 1>Zombie that when it comes near you makes you feel the urge to eat other people, the greedy murderous urges.

01:09:19.420 --> 01:09:21.779
<v Speaker 1>It kind of like is what people blame.

01:09:21.989 --> 01:09:24.899
<v Speaker 1>Maybe some survival cannibalism that happened at this time on

01:09:25.199 --> 01:09:26.100
<v Speaker 2>Oh, sh for sure.

01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:32.460
<v Speaker 2>And I think we'll get to that in a second, but I thought that the curse of the, when to go, was it infectious?

01:09:33.140 --> 01:09:33.420
<v Speaker 2>All right.

01:09:33.421 --> 01:09:33.739
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:09:33.920 --> 01:09:41.449
<v Speaker 2>So they, if they're nearby mm-hmm,<affirmative> it causes you to crave human flesh.

01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:41.810
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:09:42.510 --> 01:09:48.010
<v Speaker 2>And then once you give into that urge, you become, you become the, when to go.

01:09:48.130 --> 01:09:48.130
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:09:48.131 --> 01:09:48.369
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:09:48.750 --> 01:09:50.649
<v Speaker 1>Do you remember the movie RAVs that we watched?

01:09:50.750 --> 01:09:51.170
<v Speaker 1>Of course.

01:09:51.210 --> 01:09:52.729
<v Speaker 2>I remember the movie RAness that we watched.

01:09:52.890 --> 01:09:53.090
<v Speaker 2>I think

01:09:53.090 --> 01:10:08.439
<v Speaker 1>That's a good, I mean, it's obviously a Western based storytelling, so there's obviously some appropriation that's happening there, but that's kind of a good, it's a version of the, when Togo that is more accurate to the original native American folklore than other depictions of the, when Togo that we see.

01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:10:09.020 --> 01:10:14.640
<v Speaker 2>But it also encompasses a lot of the cannibalism mythology from other cultures.

01:10:15.140 --> 01:10:22.510
<v Speaker 2>The, when Togo in that movie, you know, following native American can Laura, where they look just like perfectly normal people.

01:10:22.829 --> 01:10:22.829
<v Speaker 2>Yep.

01:10:23.470 --> 01:10:23.789
<v Speaker 2>Or per yeah.

01:10:23.949 --> 01:10:24.109
<v Speaker 2>Per yeah.

01:10:24.110 --> 01:10:25.750
<v Speaker 2>Perfectly humanoid people.

01:10:26.060 --> 01:10:32.909
<v Speaker 2>However, by eating the flesh of another person, you take their power, you take their strength.

01:10:33.189 --> 01:10:33.189
<v Speaker 2>Mm.

01:10:33.569 --> 01:10:40.739
<v Speaker 2>And so in that movie, they kept consuming person after person and getting stronger and stronger to super human proportions.

01:10:40.789 --> 01:10:41.140
<v Speaker 2>Right.

01:10:41.289 --> 01:10:41.779
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah.

01:10:41.890 --> 01:10:42.180
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:10:42.180 --> 01:10:47.300
<v Speaker 1>And had kind of like the ability to teleport and other things because it became so powerful.

01:10:47.710 --> 01:10:48.699
<v Speaker 1>Could they teleport?

01:10:48.701 --> 01:10:48.979
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:10:49.260 --> 01:10:53.260
<v Speaker 1>Remember he would sort of like be jumping around like the person like taunting them.

01:10:53.619 --> 01:10:55.140
<v Speaker 2>I thought he was just like stupid fast.

01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:57.539
<v Speaker 1>Oh, maybe I, I thought it was teleportation.

01:10:57.819 --> 01:11:02.090
<v Speaker 2>I thought he was like straight up bat, Manning him, you know, where they look for.

01:11:02.289 --> 01:11:05.850
<v Speaker 2>They, you look away for one second and he just like, he moves so fast that he's somewhere else.

01:11:06.170 --> 01:11:07.090
<v Speaker 2>I guess we'll have to rewatch

01:11:07.090 --> 01:11:07.250
<v Speaker 1>It.

01:11:07.489 --> 01:11:08.289
<v Speaker 1>I love to rewatch it.

01:11:08.291 --> 01:11:09.090
<v Speaker 1>It's been a few years.

01:11:09.590 --> 01:11:10.489
<v Speaker 1>Do you know Alan?

01:11:10.490 --> 01:11:13.409
<v Speaker 1>What the chuga is without looking at the outline?

01:11:13.590 --> 01:11:20.010
<v Speaker 1>No,<laugh>, it's a somewhat similar entity that originated with the indigenous people of the Pacific Northwest.

01:11:20.159 --> 01:11:20.449
<v Speaker 1>Whoa,

01:11:20.449 --> 01:11:20.770
<v Speaker 2>Whoa, whoa.

01:11:20.770 --> 01:11:23.920
<v Speaker 2>We have regional when Degos we do, that's fun.

01:11:24.500 --> 01:11:25.199
<v Speaker 2>How we not talked

01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:25.640
<v Speaker 1>About this?

01:11:26.119 --> 01:11:26.479
<v Speaker 1>I dunno.

01:11:26.480 --> 01:11:28.000
<v Speaker 1>I just discovered it for the first time.

01:11:28.060 --> 01:11:28.640
<v Speaker 1>That's cool.

01:11:28.640 --> 01:11:31.439
<v Speaker 1>There's definitely a lot less known about it than the, when Togo.

01:11:31.440 --> 01:11:34.000
<v Speaker 1>It seems like a very specific offshoot.

01:11:34.001 --> 01:11:35.359
<v Speaker 1>That's very regional.

01:11:35.949 --> 01:11:48.909
<v Speaker 2>Well it's, uh, I mean, I don't know, this is hopefully my own it flaring up, but I feel like there's not even that much known about like when to go lore and everything.

01:11:49.510 --> 01:11:57.630
<v Speaker 2>I feel like it's only spread through like Western pop culture, the original source material of these myths doesn't exist anymore.

01:11:57.979 --> 01:11:58.270
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

01:11:58.350 --> 01:12:01.750
<v Speaker 1>I don't know enough about it, but you know, I would imagine you're definitely right.

01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:12.979
<v Speaker 2>You think of Greek or Norse mythology and it's just like, so fleshed out through like original source material and just like when it comes to these indigenous myths, you just don't have that.

01:12:13.539 --> 01:12:13.539
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:12:13.859 --> 01:12:15.819
<v Speaker 2>Cuz of the stupid con store that's right.

01:12:16.739 --> 01:12:17.220
<v Speaker 2>you Columbus

01:12:17.899 --> 01:12:23.539
<v Speaker 1><laugh> the chuga was also a cannibal creature, but it had a bit more refinement.

01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:31.220
<v Speaker 1>And so the main difference is that it was thought of as enlightened and connected to ancestors and like the wisdom of, of like ancestral wisdom.

01:12:31.960 --> 01:12:39.890
<v Speaker 1>So even though it's still, it's still like cannibal, it's like a little bit less, a little more kind of like a wise entity.

01:12:40.569 --> 01:12:40.850
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

01:12:41.390 --> 01:12:50.010
<v Speaker 2>By consuming the flesh, you get the memories and power of all those that came before you in that line.

01:12:50.289 --> 01:12:52.489
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I don't think that that's the spin.

01:12:52.649 --> 01:13:03.560
<v Speaker 1>I think it's more so that the entity itself was thought of as like an ancestral being versus like, I don't know there again, I could find very, very little on it.

01:13:03.619 --> 01:13:07.239
<v Speaker 1>So I'm not gonna like, I guess speculate because I'm, I don't know the, the answer,

01:13:07.619 --> 01:13:12.279
<v Speaker 2>It sounded a lot like one for all the, the quirk from my hero academia.

01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:18.390
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's passed on by consuming some DNA from a, the, the person.

01:13:19.109 --> 01:13:19.350
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

01:13:19.529 --> 01:13:26.949
<v Speaker 2>And then yeah, you get the experience and strength of, of all those that came before you in that line, you just keep passing it down through the ages.

01:13:27.390 --> 01:13:27.630
<v Speaker 2>Interesting.

01:13:28.510 --> 01:13:28.510
<v Speaker 2>Whatchu

01:13:28.710 --> 01:13:43.020
<v Speaker 1>Gay whatchu gay in our very early episode on the, when Togo, we discussed something called when Togo psychosis, which is easily defined as a mental illness that causes an insatiable craving for human flesh.

01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:53.260
<v Speaker 1>And again, there's a lot of controversy over this so-called mental illness because most people believe that humans can be driven to cannibalism by extreme conditions, which we know is the case.

01:13:53.960 --> 01:14:01.409
<v Speaker 1>And anyone else who eats human flesh likely has a host of mental illnesses, which we're gonna talk about, um, in the next episode.

01:14:01.510 --> 01:14:07.329
<v Speaker 1>But the most believed rationale is more of a representation of mental health than cannibalism.

01:14:07.869 --> 01:14:15.130
<v Speaker 1>So in the winter months, the Algonquin people would experience a sort of cabin fever, extreme hunger, and like all native Americans, right?

01:14:15.131 --> 01:14:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Like in the winter, it was extremely difficult to survive in your starving and hungry.

01:14:20.670 --> 01:14:28.119
<v Speaker 1>Many think that this psychosis actually started as the fear of turning into a monster and cannibalizing those around them.

01:14:28.121 --> 01:14:29.039
<v Speaker 1>During these desolate

01:14:29.039 --> 01:14:32.279
<v Speaker 2>Times, I once asked to go to the nurse's office.

01:14:32.590 --> 01:14:32.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

01:14:33.100 --> 01:14:35.760
<v Speaker 2>And the reason I gave was when to go psychosis, are you kidding

01:14:35.779 --> 01:14:36.000
<v Speaker 1>Me?

01:14:36.399 --> 01:14:37.840
<v Speaker 1>No, you God.

01:14:39.119 --> 01:14:41.829
<v Speaker 1><laugh> why, how did you even know that

01:14:42.729 --> 01:14:45.390
<v Speaker 2>You didn't grow up learning about the, when

01:14:45.390 --> 01:14:45.710
<v Speaker 1>To go?

01:14:45.989 --> 01:14:47.869
<v Speaker 1>I never knew about the, when to go until I met you.

01:14:48.180 --> 01:14:49.630
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's, that's on you.

01:14:50.100 --> 01:14:52.710
<v Speaker 1>It's just hilarious that you would say, what did the nurse say?

01:14:53.109 --> 01:14:55.630
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I, I don't, I think it was like, what's that?

01:14:55.930 --> 01:14:56.550
<v Speaker 2>And then like,

01:14:56.850 --> 01:14:58.670
<v Speaker 1>And you said, I feel the urge to eat my

01:14:58.670 --> 01:14:59.149
<v Speaker 2>Classmates.

01:14:59.449 --> 01:15:02.699
<v Speaker 2>No, I think it was like supposed to be a joke and kind of fell flat.

01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:04.460
<v Speaker 2>And I, I don't know I was that kid.

01:15:04.600 --> 01:15:07.579
<v Speaker 1>So you just went to the nurse anyway and got a lollipop or whatever they

01:15:07.579 --> 01:15:08.500
<v Speaker 2>Don't give you lollipops.

01:15:09.079 --> 01:15:09.460
<v Speaker 2>Do they?

01:15:09.699 --> 01:15:10.020
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

01:15:10.020 --> 01:15:17.539
<v Speaker 1>I used to hang out with the nurse a lot when I needed like a break, I would just be like, I need to go to the nurse's office and I would just sit in there for hours and she would just talk to me.

01:15:17.649 --> 01:15:17.939
<v Speaker 1>Sure.

01:15:18.439 --> 01:15:23.739
<v Speaker 1>So I think that this is a really good place to leave off for the day, for the week.

01:15:23.930 --> 01:15:27.460
<v Speaker 1>What we're done talking about the, when to go, we're done talking about the, when to go.

01:15:27.600 --> 01:15:29.500
<v Speaker 1>So we've covered a really large span of time.

01:15:30.159 --> 01:15:34.260
<v Speaker 1>The next episode is going to, in my opinion, be better.

01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:36.090
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's just more interesting to me.

01:15:36.091 --> 01:15:39.210
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot of survival cannibalism in modern times.

01:15:39.319 --> 01:15:40.930
<v Speaker 1>It's a lot of serial killer talk.

01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:46.810
<v Speaker 1>It's, you know, it's some really interesting, more modern cases of consent cannibalism.

01:15:47.000 --> 01:15:47.930
<v Speaker 1>It's gonna be much worse.

01:15:48.770 --> 01:15:49.689
<v Speaker 1>Uh, it might be a little more graphic.

01:15:49.979 --> 01:15:54.729
<v Speaker 1>Don't like it actually, it's not gonna be super graphic, but will there be more blood jam?

01:15:55.460 --> 01:15:55.680
<v Speaker 1>No.

01:15:56.029 --> 01:16:00.600
<v Speaker 1>Done with a blood jam unless you go to our Paton<laugh> but yeah.

01:16:00.600 --> 01:16:03.239
<v Speaker 1>So I think this is a good place to put a pin in it for now.

01:16:03.240 --> 01:16:13.520
<v Speaker 1>Again, I know that this was not a holistic representation of cannibalism throughout early history, but we did our best to kind of, to hit the highlights and to not be too boring.

01:16:13.710 --> 01:16:14.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

01:16:14.300 --> 01:16:15.909
<v Speaker 1>So thank you guys so much for listening.

01:16:15.911 --> 01:16:21.710
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for being on this very ambitious cannibalism journey with us.

01:16:22.289 --> 01:16:35.510
<v Speaker 1>We are very excited to come back next week to pick things up with more modern instances of cannibalism until then stay safe, stay spooky, and don't eat your neighbor unless they consent.

01:16:35.750 --> 01:16:36.659
<v Speaker 1>Cuz of then I guess it's legal.

01:16:37.939 --> 01:16:38.060
<v Speaker 1>All right.

01:16:38.619 --> 01:16:38.619
<v Speaker 1>Bye.

01:16:39.460 --> 01:16:39.460
<v Speaker 1>Bye.