Back to Biz with Katie and Boz: University presidents Michael Roth and James Ryan

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Get started now at career builder dot com. Hi everyone, I'm Katie Couric and I'm Boma st. John and this is back to biz with Katie and Bows. So, Katie, you're back from my book writing. I'm so glad. I am thank you for giving me a break. You held down the fort beautifully, Bows. But um, yes, I had to put the pedal to the metal and really focus on getting my book done. I'm still working on the Yahoo Years, but I've made real progress, So thank you for giving me some time to focus on that. But I'm super jazz to be here today because this is an episode we've been talking about for some time. I don't know about you, Bows, but I would hate to be an incoming college pressing right now, wouldn't you? True? True? And we're not sure that we'd want to be the university president either. The coronavirus has the nation's colleges and universities in financial crisis, a lot of anxiety about the upcome fall semester for both students and parents. The next casualty of the pandemic could be college football. Families still face pricey tuition bills and are now rethinking their college plans. It has been such a nightmare. Before we introduce our guests, we should give a little preview and say we tapped the presidents of our respective alma Maters. By the way, I graduated in seventy nine, Bows, you graduated in ninety nine. I wasn't going to mention it, but hey, age is just you know, here we are and mine is unlisted. Um, so why don't you introduce your special guest, Bows? Yes, Oh my goodness. Well, I'm I'm very very excited about this episode because Michael Roth, who is the current president of Western University, is joining us today and I'm super jazz to have the new president of the University of Virginia, Jim Ryan, Hey, thanks for having me. Well, I think both of you have had such fascinating lives, and I think I speak on behalf of a lot of people who are involved with Wesleyan or uv A how we feel really lucky to have you both in academia. I find it so interesting that you're both first generation college students. Um. But you know, I've been thinking a lot about how we're taught history and how history has really warped our perspective on so many events. And Jim, of course, I've been writing my own book, and I've just finished writing about the Unite the Right rally and the fact that for so long people really didn't understand the Civil War or the lost Cause and narrative, or what Confederate statues stood for and when they were erected and what the reasoning behind them and other Confederate iconography and gosh, you you both are so interested in education. What what do you think about that? I mean, do you think that that's responsible for a lot of the intolerance and narrow own minded attitudes towards this current reckoning we're witnessing. Well, I'll I'll jump in first, if Jim, if that's all right. I think that the the reckoning is due mostly to the persistence of racist depression, and that that oppression continues to um survive despite what seems to be the good intentions of many people who don't consider themselves racist, because of these narratives of the past that have become part of uh, what we believe are this are settled truths. And I think some of the controversy we see today around history textbooks, around the project, the kind of vehemence about that is that these is historical research, certainly not perfect research, but it's an intervention of thoughtful intervention in in American history that shakes up the the stories, the histories we've been led to believe are foundational and that's what good historians do, and I think that sixty nine project is extraordinarily worthwhile. But I think when people have their founding stories shaken, sometimes they are say, they say, thank you, my goodness, now I see more of the way the world is. But most of the time they get very angry, especially if that foundational story justified their own position in the world, even if it's not that elevated, it's more elevated than the object of their racist scorn, and so they are very can be very angry to see that UM that those foundational stories or myths question M Jim, what about you? But I would add to that, I agree with that entirely. What I would add is I do think that a lot of the sort of head scratching when someone um uses the term structural racism, for example, is due to a lack of knowledge of history, not just around the founding but twentieth century history. I mean. The other piece of this is that there's often this assumption that UM, well, that happened two hundred three, four hundred years ago. But there are so many elements to UM modern history that if you understood them, you would understand why the world looks the way it does today. And not just not just understanding um, what happened during the Jim Crow era and the propagation of the myth of the Lost Cause UM, but basic things like redlining UM or how long it took between the time that Brown versus Board of Education was decided and there were actual efforts to integrate the schools, and then how short lived those efforts were. Right. I mean I I spent an awful lot of time. I taught a course on on um law and education, and spent an awful lot of time on history that law students and education school students just never had. I mean the number of students who come up to me after a class and say, how come I've never heard of redlining UM? Or how come I've never heard of Militant versus Bradley, which was a decision that prohibited um bussing across school district lines, which basically killed school integration in nineteen seventy four, maybe five years after the court finally got serious about it. I mean, it is this sense that oh, well, these you know, bad things happen. No, I mean this is part of a pattern that you can see in terms of how this country has dealt with issues of race and how it's treated people of color, and a lack of that history I think helps explain a lack of empathy. Does that mean is that being fixed though, you guys? I mean, do you think that the way kids are being taught history? I mean, Bose, I don't know about you, but I feel like you know, I was. I went to public school in northern Virginia, and I feel a lot of the history that I learned was, you know, adhered to a specific narrative that didn't entertain so many of these concepts. Is that changing? You know? My daughters learned from Howard's in UH, which is a very different way UH to look at history. Do you find that that's spreading across the country for young people so we won't have this deeply entrenched misunderstanding or this idea that of American exceptionalism when it wasn't exceptional. I mean, I think it's changing in in parts of the country and not so much in others. I mean, the basic fact about the US education system is that there isn't one there, you know, thirteen thousand education systems because there are that many are a little bit more UM school districts. So in some places, um, yeah, there's a fuller telling of us history, the good, the bad, and the ugly, and in other places, I don't think. So. What about you, Michael, Yeah, I think that Jim is exactly right that it really depends on where you go to school, one of the resources are used there. But I also want to question us against thinking this what we're learning now is like we finally now we have the truth. This history is always being revised, and I don't think um, the historical narratives we've been taught fully justify UM being comfortable with injustice or a lack of empathy. I think what's really important is that uh, young people, whether they're kith you twelve system or in college, learn to live with the idea that they can make things better UM, and that they can learn a variety of perspectives on how things got unacceptable now and then acquire a variety of tools to address those things in the future. What I do worry about sometimes is that people say, well, I believe this kind of story, and my friends and my group, my comrades, my sisters and brothers, they believe this story, and we'll fight for these things, and you guys fight for those other things, and they don't. Sometimes are not encouraged to actually listen to one another. So I think that one of the important things to do is not to let young people think now they have the truth, but to let young people learn how to conduct inquiry, to listen to other people, to discover what they might learn more about, what they what false which they might no longer believe, and what other truths other people might have for them. And that's a hard thing. I mean, people like many people like certainty. But I think you can cultivate an openness to ambiguity and inquiry with young people, um so that they're more likely to listen to people who disagree with them even when they get older. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, a snapshot of what going back to campus might look like. This COVID fall that's in just a moment. Whether your event needed one room or an entire conference center, hoppin has revolutionized the way people come together. With hoppin, you can host a fully fledged digital meet up, complete with one on one meetings, hands on sessions, and expo booths and Because everything is hosted in a single, easy to use platform, it can be as big or small as you want, remain convenient for anyone who wants to attend, and give you access to data you never would have known otherwise. Visit hoppin dot com to learn more and get started it. Still living in and manually taking notes start the new year with auto dot ai to generate automatic notes for meetings, interviews, or lectures. With auto dot ai, you can search the meeting notes, insert images, play back the audio, and share them with your friends or co workers. You can capture action items, remember meeting details, and keep everyone informed. Auto dot ai works for in person or virtual meetings like Zoom, Microsoft Teams, and Google meet. Sign up for free at auto dot ai or download the app for free auto dot ai. That's O T T e R dot Ai. The moment you realized you were mistaking your kids for co workers? Okay, team, I'm taking my fifteen Now. What was the moment you knew it was time to get back to work? Let's drop it up at Career Builder are simple, customizable search tool lets you search for part time, full time, and even work from home jobs so you can find a job that fits your lifestyle. Get started now at career builder dot com. You're listening to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows and today we're talking about the future of education with the presence of our alma maters, Michael Roth of Western University in Connecticut and Jim Ryan from the University of Virginia. Let's get back to it. I know that you both have you plans for what the fall will look like, but can you tell us a little bit about, you know, the tough decisions that you're making, uh, and what is influencing those decisions? Also ahead, Michael, you can start. Thanks a lot, buddy, I'm hoping to so it's it's it is a very challenging time. I mean, obviously we started our planning you know, right, really won't We sent kids home in mid March like many other schools, and it was extraordinary. Um. Ever since then, we've been trying to figure out what are the parameters for us to be able to bring students back safely in the fall? Can we can we do that successfully? And for us, the question was we believe in in person education it can be complimented by online education. You can there are great examples of hybrid things I teach online. I'm teaching right now online actually all over the world, UM and and so, so we wanted to make sure that we could reduce the risks to our students, faculty, and staff sufficiently that that the environment would be used this phrase safe enough. When I wrote about safe enough spaces, I was really thinking about free speech. But now we're thinking about not zero risk to everybody, because that there is no place in America where you can have a zero risk, but where we can practice harm reduction with cooperation from our students, faculty and staff and UM and that we will we will respond to the the data that we get from the public health authorities and the government and see if we did not feel that we could conduct in person classes safely, we wouldn't conduct them. UM and So what we're doing is creating environments where everyone will be six ft apart, where everyone in public we wear masks, where there will be lots of hygiene practice, and you know, lots of things that just their common sense right, the question everyone asks and they should ask, and I ask myself this all hours of the day and night. Will the students cooperate? And you know, well, we've all seen the pictures of young people partying on the beach or in a bar. And and we all, we all know what college students like to do. What we're trying to do, and I would imagine this is true of many schools, is to appeal not to our students desire to obey authority, because there is none I'm desired for that, but to their spirit of community, which is the incredibly powerful um. And we are working with the student leaders to create an environment where if Bose forgets her masks, somebody says, here, here's a mask, put a mask on. Just like you know, when I was a a student at wesleyand if somebody lit up a cigarette in the classroom and no problem, the teacher might bum one from you. Today, if someone lit up a cigarette in the dining hall, another student would come over and say, hey, put that out. You know that they would intervene with one another to create an environment that's safe. In our case, we are not just depending on that. We're testing everybody twice a week. Um, we have taken over a hotel. So if we need to isolate people, we can isolate them, we can get and still have them in school. Uh. So we're doing all kinds of things. So when there are positive cases, we take them out of a chain of transmission and so we don't have a explosion of cases. Will have isolated cases. We hope then we can then quarantine and get people back into the system UM and all that depends on very good testing, very good support of isolation and contact tracing, and then the community spirit of the students, faculty and staff. Jim, how it sounds to me like UVA is kind of following a similar path as Wesleyan. But you know, as I look at u V A has sixteen thousand, seven hundred and seventy seven undergraduate students. Wesleyan has three thousand nine. I'm not sure if those are exactly correct numbers, but you get the picture. So, Jim, tell us about your plans. Yeah, we've been thinking about, well, why bring students back? Uh, And you know, our mission is as a research university is to educate our students, UM, conduct research, and we have a health center and provide medical care. All of those things are better done in person. So we from the very beginning, meaning in March, after we ask students to UM to return home, started thinking about, okay, how can we do this? In a way that's reasonably safe to students, faculty, staff, and the broader community, because Charlottesville is sort of a classic college town UM, and that's what we've been working on ever since. So we have identified a number of criteria that we need to meet in order to open. Our plan is to have students back at the end of August UM and following a lot of the same protocols that Michael is talking about with respect to UM testing and social distancing UM, and also involving student leaders and helping us figure out how to create a norm around UM, our campaign around shared norms and appealing, as Michael says, UM, both the sense of community but also to the sense that this is not necessarily about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others around you. That all said, UM, we're also keeping a close eye on the progression of the virus UM and the reality is that things look worse today than they did in mid June when we announced our plan. And when we announced our plan we said, obviously all of this is contingent on where we are at the end of August UM and right now, the trends nationally UM and in Virginia and locally are not going in the direction that we would like to see UM, So we're keeping a close eye on that and again going back to these gating criteria, and if they're not met, we're not going to be able to invite students back. We also have a number of criteria for what we would do to ramp down or shut down, and one of them is going to be around student behavior. So I think we're asking all students to agree to abide by these protocols UM, but we know there will be some that don't comply and they will be subject to UM disciplinary proceedings. But if it gets to the point where there's an awful lot of non compliance, we need to take that into account in terms of whether we can actually continue with the continue with the semester, and we need to let students know that that's actually going to be a factor and whether we have to ask students to return home. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, is it time to reinvent the entire higher education system? The university presidents answered that and more in just a moment. Here's another podcast you should add to your listen list, All Worth Financials, Money Matters, Every week, host Scott Hansen and Pat McLean answer calls about investing, social Security benefits and retirement was straight talk. That's straight up entertaining everyone. We're well, I have enough to retire. That's why thousands have called into All Worth Money Matters for advice on their financial future and found the smart next steps to keep their retirement plan on track. 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So, you know, even in light of that, thinking about what the differences is for these students who are going to come back, potentially come back, maybe not come back after Thanksgiving or you know, depending on your plan um that zoom classes maybe don't feel like enough if I'm not on campus, stuff of not getting all the extra things that come with what the cost of college looks like, is it is it even worth it? I mean, we're we are talking about a luxury also right. I mean even for Michael at Wesleyan. Right, I think at this point tuition is about seventy five seventy six thousand dollars a year with room in board and Jim, I think it's it's just about seventeen or eighteen thousand, right if you're if you're in state, just for tuition and for out of state we should add Jim, it's worth yeah. Yeah, so I mean these are these are luxury. Yeah. So it's a big luxury. Um. What do you think about that? What about the response to students or parents who feel like, you know, the virtual version perhaps doesn't match the sticker price. It's an interesting case in our case. You know, almost half of the students are on significant financial aid and now the average grant, no loans or forty dollars for students. So um. So you know that that the people who can't afford to pay by the formulas that the government relies um, uh, they don't pay. And so you know there's a significant percentage of students who don't pay anything for room and board or tuition. What strikes me, and I must say, I'm I'm surprised by this. I don't know if Jim has the same experience. Um, we expected more students. Actually just say in these conditions, I'm not coming back to campus. Um, But in fact we have. We have more students than we expected. Who are who They're so eager to be together, even if they have to wear a mask, even if they have to be at some distance from each other. Um that they they they they want to be on campus. They want to feel connected to people their age who are studying. And I think we've all had experience like this. We would say in the abstract, I would never want to do that. I would never do that. But when you when your choices, city, I'm in my basement talking to you, my choice is I'll see you outside. We can talk at a distance, we can go for a walk, we can we could have a meal at some that's actually becomes very very precious. And the proof is our students are voting with their feet. They really want to come back to campus work seeing the same thing. Um, it will be different, I mean, and we we've been saying this over and again and now I mean it's obvious the the fall semester is not going to k much like a normal semester. But I think students are eager to see each other and as Michael says, UM be in each other's company. Um, And even if it's under different conditions, there's something incredibly powerful about that. M hmm. How big financial hit is this going to be for both of you? You know, um, international students who often pay full freight are going to have problems coming to school. I think you haven't gotten much in federal support. Without getting too much into the weeds, um, you know, how tough is this going to be for your respective institutions? And might this be a time to re calibrate how we think about higher education with this? You know, so many kids drowning in student debt. And I mean, honestly, Michael Dollars, I knew you were saying a lot of people are on financial aid, but it just seems insane to me. And by the way, obviously it's all schools. I mean, so many schools that aren't that are private and even public universities. And you look at the price of kindergarten these days, and these private schools in New York City, it is insane and it keeps going up and up and up. So I guess my question is two parts how how big a challenge is this going to be for your solvency? And is it time to rethink how college works? Michael go in thirty seconds, just kidding. So, so the the the the hit on the economically is really significant, and it's you know, if you have dorms, UM and you and you don't rent them out to anyone. Let's say you're not opening, that's you still have all the costs associated with having your dorms, but you you don't have any revenue associate So that that that's a very significant hit. Um. We have always been very conservative in our budgeting. Everybody is in a pay freeze. At Wesleyan, I took a big pay cut. Other people cut their salaries. You know, we're figuring out how to preserve jobs um all at the same time, UM trimming all extra budgets. Uh. Is it time to rethink? People have been rethinking them the higher education finances for a long time. The fact is is I think Cappy Hill wants to use president of Vassar and the economist of education. She said, as long as as long as Katie comes along and says, I'm willing to spend whatever it takes for my daughter or my niece to get the very best education. As long as people say that in America, and they say it every day, the price will keep going up. Um. And we can deliver at scale and on LiLine education. That's okay, um. And but it's what people if. If you want, so what we're giving online classes of Wesley and I'm saying, I'm sure you right now, it's not any cheaper to give it online. You're still paying the faculty, you're doing small classes, you're having intense discussions. Um. The introduction of technology into higher education is famously not reduced the cost of producing the educational experience. It's more like going to the dentist. It's not less expensive because there's more technology, it's just a lot better. And I think the experience for our students now, the wrap around experience that our students expect, from first rate athletics to first rate psyclotherapy, UM. Great classes combined with hundreds of clubs. This kind of full spot experience is what people are demanding to pay for. And half of our students can't pay, so we have to raise money to support their financial aid. It is a model under great duress. But I think it also is a model that produces extraordinary experiences for undergraduates, extraordinary research, and great technological development. So I don't think it's going to disappear, even if it's under duress. Right, what about you, Jim, do you I mean, I'm sure you've been asking yourself yourself a lot of these questions endowments or down right, and UM, you know it's a really really challenging time. Yeah, I mean it would be challenging for us UM financially for the reasons that Michael pointed out. We're also facing loss of revenue in athletics as well in football in particular UM. And then assuming that the season continues, which is what the plan is now, UM stadiums won't be UM won't be nearly full UM, but UM, you know, will will weather that part of it. The piece of that I worry the most about is the impact on our employees UM and the financial hit that UM that that they might be facing. And so, like Michael, you know, we're trying to figure out how we can make sure UM to preserve as much job continuity as we can. That's when there's a narrative out there that schools are making these decisions based on finances, and some of them may have to because it's an existential crisis. But for us, you know, this is just one of the risks that we think about, is the risk to our employees. UM if students are not are not bad UM in terms of the cost you know, I think what this UM, the whole episode is going to cause people to do, and it's a good thing to do, is to really UM examine whether they're getting good value for the increasingly large investment that they're making. Right So, there are a lot of top schools like Wesleyan UM and U v a. M have generous financial aid. Pole Seas were one of only two public universities in the country that guarantees to meet UM all financial needs. UM. That's an expensive model. But I think for some schools UM, you know, there will be an increasing assessment that it is actually not worth it UM. And I think this whole episode is going to accelerate the trend of some schools UM no longer existing because the value proposition isn't there and the value proposition, to go back to something Bose was saying, is is is beyond is the experience beyond just the classes? Is the experience of what happens when you're on campus with other students UM. And if that experience is not rich enough, is not valuable enough, why not take classes online? Right? You would be it would be more convenient and it would be cheaper for you to do so if you could live at home UM and just take classes online. I was talking to someone who said, uh, that vocational almost a vocational type education was going to be emphasized more because on top of the pandemic, now you have, you know, this very very tough economy that college graduates are going into. And as a liberal arts major myself an American Studies major at u v A, I just I wonder both of you if if you're going to have to start teaching classes where skills will be paramount so when people graduate they can actually really get a job. Is that is that a crazy idea? Is? Do you agree with that? Michael I? I don't. I think the same things were said in the Great Recession, UM that schools were going to disappear, and that liberal arts disappear, and that now we have micro degrees and badges, and there's some of that, to be sure, and most you know, great proportion of the student debt is actually for schools that claimed to to school skills um and and just the preditory lenders UM. So I don't think the way to prepare students for successful life after college is to be increasingly narrow because the economy is changing so rapidly that you need to be able to continue to learn, and we have to show students how they can use what they learn in different kinds of settings, not just in the classroom, in real world settings. I do think that the the the pressure on some schools to change their calendars because of the pandemic um it can lead to even more substantial changes. I don't think there's any reason for students to go to school for eight semesters. I think that's just the convention that we've had for a long time, but there's no educational reason for it. We have post hoc justifications, but um the best way we found in West need to reduce the price of education is to compress it into three years instead of four same number of courses. You have less of that experience, but you actually pay less uh off the top, and I think there are a lot would be more experiments like that, where students may go to community college for two years and then go to one school for one year or UM finding ways to give people this experience. It's so empowering economically as well as culturally, but they don't perhaps need to have that for eight semesters spread over four years. Yeah. Well, there is so much changing in the world. And what do you think about what students are thinking right now about you know, the racial unrest that is happening in our country. Have you heard from them, you know, both for you and and Jim, and what are their thoughts and how are you incorporating that into some of what you're thinking for the future. Jim, do you want to go first on this one? So I'm happy to start. UM. I've been really impressed by how engaged our students are both at the UM sort of across the country with respect to protests, but also focusing on you be a UM. And as I was saying earlier UM about UM what happened after the Unite the Right rally, I think you're seeing the same thing again, which is that there's an opportunity UM for change and students are helping drive that. And so we've put together small racial Equity task Force to go through the various petitions, suggestions, and demands that have been made to UVA on behalf of mostly students but sometimes faculty, staff and alumni over the last twenty five years, UM and come forward with a set of concrete and prioritize recommendations for what uv A can do in this moment. And it does feel like an opportunity to have a reckoning over issues of race that have been longstanding and only sporadically attended to. Mm hmm. So at Wesleyan we've had some are kinds of conversations to which Jim just described. We also started UH in the late fall something something called Engage, where along with almost three other schools in the country, are trying to stimulate participation in the electoral system. And I think our students should be paying attention to their towns, so their regions, to their states, and to the federal government. And so it's not my business to tell them how to engage, but it is my business to try to find ways for them to be engaged. And then when the pandemic hit, I thought all these plans for them going door to door getting petitions inside had all gone out the window. But of course, with the black Lives Matter protest clearly the energy and creativity of young people to demand change at their at their town level, at their state, at the federal government level, that this is this is a moment that is so crucial for the United States, I believe, and so I am trying it's best I can to facilitate their involvement because I think we are desperate for their energy and creativity at this moment in in the nation's history. Jim Ryan and Michael Roth has been a real pleasure talking to both of you, and I just want to say good luck this fall. Uh, We'll be thinking about you guys and pulling for you and hoping that that things things aren't as hard as they seem right now and it all works out and that and that this sense of community will prevail. You've been listening to Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, and Jim Ryan, President of the University of Virginia, and that does it for this week's episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. We've talked to so many interesting people and if you haven't been able to listen to all of them, go on and subscribe on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, and as always, you can keep up with me and Bows beyond the podcast by finding and following us on our social media channels, and make sure you subscribe to the Next Question podcast B two Until We Meet Again. I'm Katie Curry and I'm Bozma St. John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currik, Bozma St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derek Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derek Clements. Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go to Katie Kirk dot com. 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