Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep16 - Puppy Assessment Tests: Can They Help Match Puppies With Owners?

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture

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potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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Well, today's topic is one
that comes up all the time.

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Temperament
testing for puppies to help breeders

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make better placements for their puppies.

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So here's
the question:
Temperament Testing.

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I have someone interested in our litter

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and training their pup
for a potential therapy dog.

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They want to train him to do deep pressure

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therapy for her anxiety.

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She grew up helping training, hunting dogs
and they've trained rescues.

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So I know she can do this
if we get her a good match.

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So how do you find someone to do
temperament testing?

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I talked to
someone who was recommended to me,

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but when I asked to set an appointment
and for details,

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she said she would, quote, teach me to
evaluate my own puppies, unquote.

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Which means we aren't talking
the same language.

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Based on what I know from Puppy Culture.

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And she

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said she would come out
between five and six weeks,

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which seems early.

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Okay.

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There's just so much in this.

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But let me start breaking it down and

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let's just start

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with reviewing what we have
in Puppy Culture on puppy

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testing.

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If you have not seen Puppy
Culture already, we do cover it.

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Go to puppyculture.com,
check out the original Puppy Culture film.

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We talk a lot about puppy testing.

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But let me summarize.

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Running puppies through paces

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with a novel person in a novel environment

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gives you some insight into where

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those puppies are at that time.

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Okay, so it's a snapshot in time.

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It's not necessarily predictive

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of adult temperament at all.

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In fact, probably not.

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Probably not going to be at all helpful
for what this querent is asking for,

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which is to predict
which puppy will be best suited

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to be a deep pressure therapy dog.

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Now, the predictive

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value of puppy testing has been studied

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and has been uniformly
found to have little

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to no predictive value.

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The one

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personality dimension

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that apparently does track

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from puppy testing to adulthood
is exploratory behavior.

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Now, I'm going to say right here,
I've written an article on this.

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It's in Madcap University.

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If you go to the resources section,

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I did do an article on puppy testing

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and it's called Shifting Your Lens
for Better Results.

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So you can get all the citations
to all the studies.

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But trust me, this has been studied.

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Puppy testing
not predictive of adult temperament

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in any reliable fashion.

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But what is very predictive of adult
temperament

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is how the puppy is raised
in the first year of life.

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And when you look at the most important

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personality dimension
for a pet owner or a therapy

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dog, it's lack of aggression

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and a puppy being frightened

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by a person or a dog

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in the first year of life

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has been to have a high correlation
with later

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human and dog aggression.

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So what does that tell you?

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That your focus

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should be on empowering your puppy owners
to protect their puppies?

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Keep your puppy owners
from making mistakes with their puppies.

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Do not allow puppies to have a bad
experience in the first year of life.

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That ultimately is going to be
a lot more predictive of adult temperament

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in the most important sense,
which is lack of aggression

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than any puppy testing.

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Okay,

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now that I've laid that out,
why do we even do puppy testing?

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Well, it is helpful.

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It's very helpful to know where those
puppies are before they leave your house.

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We do puppy testing at seven weeks old

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and we're going to discuss that more
about what age you should do it at.

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We do puppy testing at seven weeks old
and that gives me

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three more weeks because I normally place
puppies at ten weeks old.

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That gives me three more weeks
with those puppies

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to work on whatever I feel needs work.

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If the puppies are

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a little funny about a novel environment
or a novel person,

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I know, I have to double up on that.

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If the puppies, let's say,
have a little bit too much drive on the

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on the toy drive.

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I know I have to work on
a little impulse control with that.

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I can

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get myself a game plan
for those last three weeks

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based on what I see in that puppy test.

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Now, you also may be able
to identify outliers, but sometimes not.

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I definitely have had puppies,
entire litters, in fact,

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that really couldn't even be tested,
that they went for the puppy test

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and they were terrified and wouldn't do
anything and wouldn't do any of the tests.

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And all of those puppies
turned out to be outstanding dogs.

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Again,
we're going to come back to the age thing.

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I think some of that
might have had to do with them

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perhaps being in a little bit
of an early fear period.

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But sometimes you can identify

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true outliers, puppies that are just like
so unbelievably pathologically sensitive.

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But in my experience, it's very rare
that you're going

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to identify them with the puppy test.

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Another utility,

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I would say, of puppy testing as a breeder

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is to see overall trends.

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I'll give you a for instance,

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I would bring my puppies always at
seven weeks old for puppy testing

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and I had certain expectations that
they would walk right in like they own

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the place, nail everything, not be overly
aroused, be very friendly to strangers,

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not be put off by any kind of sound,
be curious by all the startling things.

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And this was my expectation.

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And then I used a dog from England,

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and this was at a

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time when
you could do a true outcross still,

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because the importation of semen
was not as ubiquitous as it is now.

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Our world gene pool has become very

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homogenous
because of the ready availability

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of semen from all over the world.

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But at this time it was a true outcross.

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So there was nothing related
between the dam and the sire.

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And my first litter out of

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that was astounding.

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They were terrified.

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They were so sound sensitive.

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It was a completely different world
than I'd ever been in.

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And ever since I have added

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those genetics into my line,
I have noticed that overall,

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my puppies are softer and require
more early socialization

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because they are a little more fearful
than my puppies previously were.

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Okay, well,

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not to sidebar too much,
but let me just say you may be wondering,

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well, why
why didn't you just discard that line

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like once you did that breeding
and you had those puppies

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that were so soft,
why did you continue down that line?

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And the reason is that the reason
I brought in those genetics was because

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I had dogs that were extremely bold
and very forward and friendly with people.

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But, you know, I had some sharpness with
other dogs and I really didn't want that.

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I wanted something a little softer.

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So breeding it's a bell curve, okay?

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You can't just cherry pick
the one trait that you want,

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which is maybe being a little softer
and a little

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more docile
and not get a little bit more fearful.

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It comes with the territory.

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So moving on,
because that's another podcast.

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My point ultimately is that as a breeder,
I've seen a trend,

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a trend over many litters of softness
that I've made adjustments

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for in my socialization program
that has had a good outcome.

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So puppy testing for me
as a breeder is an invaluable resource,

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but as a breeder, as a placement tool,

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it is virtually useless in my experience.

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So let me circle
back to the original poster's questions.

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And one of one of the things she said
was that the puppy tester

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was going to teach me
to evaluate my own puppies,

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and she felt that wasn't
that wasn't what she was looking for.

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That wasn't
what we prescribe in Puppy Culture now.

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I do think

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there's room for both things.

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I do think that taking

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your puppies off
premises with a novel person

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and putting them through their paces
is extremely helpful,

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as I've mentioned, as a breeder,
so I know what I need to work on

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so there's that,
which is not what this tester

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apparently is is going to do.

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However, I do think that this breeder

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is in the best position of anyone

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to choose this puppy,

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and I don't know the details,
but potentially,

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if this were a person
who was very well versed

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in service dog placements,

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potentially this person

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could help this breeder identify
the specific traits

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that she should be looking for
when making these placements.

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So let's break this down.

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What exactly

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is going to be expected of this dog?

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If I were you,

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I would list out the exact behaviors.

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So deep pressure therapy.

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I'm not a service dog person.

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I'm not familiar with it.

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But I looked it up on the Internet
and quick over quick,

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this is what I came up with.

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The dog has to lie on top of a person,

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rest their head, either

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on the person's chest or shoulders or arm.

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So it's literally
putting pressure on the person.

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They have to either do this on cue

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and or do it in response
to changes in heartbeat

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or respiration.

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Putting aside

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the fact that puppy temperament

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does not necessarily track
with adult temperament

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as a breeder,

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you already know which puppy is probably

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going to be the best, at least
the day that that puppy goes home.

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You know which puppy is going to be
the best at doing those things?

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You know which puppy is most likely
to crawl on top of you?

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Which puppy is the most checked in
to you and your emotions?

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That's not something that's going to change or be identifiable by a puppy tester.

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I'll also say

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you cannot discount the chemistry
between the puppy owner and the puppy.

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I have definitely had puppies
that were super checked in to me

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and other people and I made a plan

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to place them with a particular family.

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And when that family showed up
to meet the puppy for the first time,

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the puppy didn't really like them
or connect with them.

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I changed my placement plans
for those puppies because of that.

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Certainly puppies can be

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more attracted
to their breeders than new people

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because they have such a history

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with their breeders,
especially if you're doing Puppy Culture,

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you're working with those puppies,
you're training

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those puppies,
those puppies are checked in to you.

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You're really connected
emotionally with those puppies.

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But when you have a puppy
that seems attracted to people in general,

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but not the specific people
who you've intended

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to place the puppy with,
that's a different thing.

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That's when you
need to change your course.

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And the same is true in reverse.

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If you observe the owners
and the puppies together,

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you can get a really good read
on which pairs are going to click.

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Just an aside,

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I do not let people pick their puppies.

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Most of the times my puppy owners
show up on the day of pickup

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and that is the day they find out
which puppy is theirs.

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If you're going to be placing puppies

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with a very specific purpose in mind,

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like therapy or performance,

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then you do need to hold them longer
and make no promises to anyone

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until they grow up
enough to show some of their true colors.

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And that's probably at least 16 weeks old.

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Service dog organizations that do this

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professionally grow up a lot of puppies

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and only a percent of those puppies
make it into the program.

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Puppy testing originated

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in service dog organizations.

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They are the experts on this.

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They have huge colonies of dogs.

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They have millions and millions of dollars
in endowments.

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They have a vast staff of experts

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to raise these puppies, to work
with these puppies, to test these puppies.

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And still 30% of the puppies
that are chosen to go into the service dog

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training program
after they puppy test them,

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do not make it through the program.

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They wash out of the program.

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So with all of that immense
expertise and resources

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and a very narrow gene pool
that has been bred for hundreds,

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if not thousands of generations
for this specific purpose,

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and they still can only get it right
seven out of ten

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times.

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It costs a small fortune to raise

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a professional service dog to maturity.

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The estimates out there

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are anywhere from 40000 to 100000

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to raise a professional service dog.

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So if there were any way to know for sure

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at seven weeks old
which puppies would be successful

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before those organizations are dropping

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a hundred grand on training them,

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those organizations
would have a 100% pass rate.

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They would have found the way
to predict it.

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So what I'm saying is

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that what you're asking for,

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which is a reliable way to predict
which of your six, seven,

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eight or ten week old puppies will be good
as a service dog does not exist.

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If it existed, the service
dog organizations

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would be using it
and have 100% success rate.

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So now

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my specific advice to you as a breeder

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is this.

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Do your

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puppy testing and I'm going to talk
a little bit more about that.

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Definitely do your puppy testing
so you can know what you have to work on

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in that end, part of the time
that you have the puppies.

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As far as placement, I would have
the person that needs the service dog

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over with the puppies and observe them
and pick

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the best fit.

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My advice to you is also to counsel
the person

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that you're making the best choice
possible for them.

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But there are many variables,
and you can't guarantee or predict

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that this puppy will eventually fill

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its intended role.

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For me.

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I would not place a puppy
with someone that specifically wanted

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that puppy
as a service dog and a service dog only.

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I would make sure that they

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would love and keep the dog
no matter what.

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You very well may have a different model
for your breeding program

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and you may have a line of people
waiting to take the washouts

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from the puppies you place as service dogs
if they don't work out.

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And that's fantastic.

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I don't have that.

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And I just think
it's something to keep in mind when you're

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placing a puppy as a service dog,

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that there's a real potential
that it will not work out.

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And you have to be proactive
about what the game plan is going to be.

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If and when that happens.

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I think the overall message that I have is

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if someone wants a service dog

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and has to have a service dog,
they need to purchase an adult

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fully trained animal or at least an adult

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where we know the temperament
and the dog's natural abilities.

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I'm not saying that

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you should never place a puppy with anyone

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that wants a service dog
or wants to train it as a service dog,

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because we all know that
not everyone has 100, 200,000 lying

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around to purchase
a fully trained service dog.

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But all I'm saying is be aware

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that there really is no way to predict
if it's going to work out.

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And if it doesn't work out,

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what's the option?

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Okay.

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So back to the specific question,

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which is
how do you find a good puppy tester?

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Because we've established

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that puppy testing does have utility
for a breeder, maybe not the utility

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that the querent was hoping it's
going to help you place that service dog

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find that perfect service puppy,
but it still has utility.

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So how do you find a good puppy tester?

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I would say your local kennel club
is going to be a great place

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to start because you're going to have
a lot of breeders there.

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And they are the kinds of people

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that would be doing this
or have someone do it for them.

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Word of mouth is the absolute best

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because anybody can frankly say
that they do it.

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You just want somebody
that's going to not scare your puppies

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00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,320
because that is your number one

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criterion for choosing a puppy tester
is that they're gentle,

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that they will not scare the puppies,
and that if at any time

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any part of that test is

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the puppy
seems scared, resistant, hesitant,

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but that puppy tester
will will stop the test and just sit down

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in the middle of the room and cuddle
the puppy.

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I have definitely had this happen
where the puppies just could not be tested

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and the puppy tester

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just had to sit in the middle of the room
and cuddle the puppies and that is the

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right thing to do, particularly
if they're doing the volhard test.

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You know, there's
a lot of sort of aversive things in there.

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There's scaring them with the umbrella.

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There is holding them on their back.

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There's the sudden sound.

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Again, most of my puppies
like you saw in Puppy Culture,

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they take this with complete aplomb.

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But I have had puppies that didn't.

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And the tester stopped the test.

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A bad experience with a puppy tester

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is predictive of

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00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:00,720
potentially having

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00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,480
human and dog aggression as an adult.

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It doesn't matter
whether they're in a fear period.

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00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,680
It's worse if they're in the fear period,
but still they're super impressionable

360
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at this young age.

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And having a bad experience of this
at this age can really imprint on them.

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So, number one, when you're asking around
for good puppy tester, don't ask like

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00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,760
who's going to be able to help me predict
which puppy to place where?

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00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:31,480
Ask who is gentle and considerate
and has good dog sense

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and will not scare your puppies.

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Finally, I want to come back to age

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because the volhard test

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was very specific about the exact age

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at which you should do this test.

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And I think

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if it's one thing
we definitely have figured out

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since then, it's
that developmental periods

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between breeds

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on average can
differ as much as two weeks, if not more.

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So, you know, for some puppies
at seven weeks old,

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they're still firmly in their curiosity,
period.

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For some other puppies,
they could already be in a fear period.

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00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,480
In my own litters, I have observed

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00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,560
the, the second fear period,
the so-called eight week fear

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00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,600
period, happened anywhere from as early
as just over

381
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,440
seven weeks,
all the way up to nine and a half weeks.

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So I think if I had
to give you some advice,

383
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,200
it would be to know what the trends are
in your breed.

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00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,200
When the average time of onset of fear,

385
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,680
period, second fear period is

386
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,680
and scheduled the test

387
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,840
3 to 4 days before that.

388
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However, be flexible.

389
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,480
Do not be afraid.

390
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,920
If you suddenly see one of the hallmarks
of a fear period which is acute

391
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,400
onset of fear of the familiar.

392
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Don't be afraid to pull chocks
and say we're not doing the test.

393
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,040
It's not worth it.

394
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,040
So rolling back

395
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040
to the original post where she said

396
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,160
the assessor was going to come out
between five and six weeks.

397
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,520
Yeah, I mean, that does seem

398
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,480
early, especially in a breed
like golden Retrievers,

399
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,640
which I believe is fairly neotenous,
but in some other breeds

400
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,120
that are very precocious,
that might not be unreasonable.

401
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,840
I think the thing
that you have to watch out for

402
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,800
is somebody that's very dogmatic about
this is the age when we do it,

403
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,040
and this is the same for every litter,
and this is how we're going to do it,

404
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:58,560
because that's just not true.

405
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,200
And if you have a forward
thinking puppy tester,

406
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,920
they should be more flexible than that.

407
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,240
If you liked this podcast,

408
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,640
you'll love our breeder
course at madcapuniversity.com.

409
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,000
Puppy Owners,
we have a puppy course for you

410
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,360
too at madcapuniversity.com.

411
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,560
Well, that's all for this time.

412
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,200
Thanks for listening.

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00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:45,720
Bye bye.