185 | Unexpected Breakthroughs: Navigating Power Dynamics When a Child Tapes Your Mouth Shut

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

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Your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi, I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks, The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered Play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode. I am answering a question from Holly in Virginia

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and she wrote in about a five year old child and

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a specific session that she had with this little boy.

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So

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I'm going to read parts of her question and then share

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some thoughts and we'll kind of process the whole scenario.

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It's specifically about a child who

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duct taped her mouth closed. So this is a really interesting scenario

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and we'll process it together. So let's read parts of the email.

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I wanted to ask you a question about a session that I had recently.

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I've been working with a five year old child for

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about two months who has a significant trauma background,

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particularly neglect.

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He started a recent session as he usually does in the doll house,

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but about 30 minutes in, he found duct tape.

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I have in my office,

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asked me to rip him off a piece and proceeded to put the

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piece of tape over my mouth and sternly told me not to talk

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throughout the remainder of the session. He would remind me not to talk

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but also still regularly interacted with me

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in non aggressive ways

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and explored the office but didn't do anything that required a limit.

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The duct tape stayed on my mouth until we left the playroom.

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I have a supervisor who is an RPT-S but uses more directive theories.

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So when I told her about this session,

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she was adamant that I should have set more boundaries

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and not allowed the child to do this,

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but rather give him choices of putting tape on a puppet or a character.

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Instead.

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In the moment I remembered you once saying limits

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are only needed when the child is unsafe.

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I'm unsafe or something in the office is unsafe.

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And technically, I was never unsafe, which is why I didn't set a limit.

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But I later did question myself.

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I would love your perspective on this situation if you would have set a limit

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and,

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or your insight in general on how to set limits on power control and aggressive play

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when they are directed at you rather than at a toy or character.

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All right. So

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I liken this to

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the times when kids order us not to talk

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or they shush us or they tell us to shut up

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or they say if you say one more thing I'm going to,

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that is essentially the exact same scenario.

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And in this case, there was just duct tape in the room

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and therefore he used duct tape,

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Holly as a general overarching.

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Thought, I'm really intrigued as to why there's duct tape in your room.

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So that's a very interesting playroom edition I will say.

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But because there was access to duct tape,

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the

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insistence of not speaking changed a little bit

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because when a child says,

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stop talking or stop copying me or stop telling me how I

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feel or you're not allowed to say another word or shut up,

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you're so annoying or I mean, look, we, we hear these things a lot, right?

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So

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in those scenarios, they are basically

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quote, putting duct tape over our mouths, but it's proverbially and in this case,

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he actually had duct tape with which he could in fact tape your mouth shut.

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So this is kind of a an extra layer, but it's a very similar situation than

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from what we all go through.

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Ok. So let's process this a little bit. So your first question is

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you questioned yourself? Later?

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Supervisor said you absolutely should have set a limit

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and

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could have given choices about putting tape on a puppet or a character. Ok.

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So I agree with you that did not warrant a limit

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because

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the three considerations are

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you have to be safe,

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the child has to be safe and the toys or the playroom cannot be damaged on purpose.

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All right, and none of those were being violated.

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Now, the other three questions that we ask are,

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can I consistently enforce this limit?

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Is this limit necessary?

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And if I allow this behavior to continue, can I still accept the child?

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And you obviously were able to still accept the child because

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you finished the session,

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no issues.

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The limit could consistently be enforced.

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But in your opinion, the limit was not necessary. So that kind of

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makes the second question moot.

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So in these specific six questions that we would filter through,

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you made the decision not to set a limit. I in fact would also agree.

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So I would not have set a limit either.

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I would have worked around the tape being on my mouth. So here's what I mean by that,

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I would not have taken the tape off. I would not have removed it,

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but I would have loosened it enough that I was able to speak here and there.

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And similarly to when a child tells us not to talk,

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forbids us to say another word, whatever the threat is,

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we slow the pace of our responses down.

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We respond more quietly almost as if in a whisper

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and we reflect and acknowledge that the child does not

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want us to talk or the child is frustrated with

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us talking or is uncomfortable with the things that we're

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saying or whatever it is that we need to validate.

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We're going to lead with that

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and then we're going to try to go back to the use of one of the skills.

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Now, if the child says, I told you to stop talking,

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then we're going to say, oh, you're, you still don't want me to speak

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and then we're going to wait a little while and then we're going to try again.

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OK?

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So that's always the process for when a child tells us that we're forbidden to talk.

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I would have kept the tape on, but I would have made it loose enough that I could speak

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and would have seen how he responded to that.

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And if he would have said your mouth is duct taped, you're not allowed to talk.

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I would say, oh, I'm not allowed to talk because I have duct tape on

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and then I would wait a little while and then I

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would try again because often the power and control grabs like that

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are short lived.

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So we can always kind of test and see how the

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child's going to receive us trying to engage verbally again.

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But here's the, the piece of this that I think is really important

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when a child is ordering us not to speak.

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They need the why for us to speak.

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In other words, as soon as he says, you're not allowed to talk,

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it's important for him to hear us say,

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oh, you don't want me to talk. But when I say what, I see you doing.

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That's so, you know, that I'm paying attention

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or

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when I tell you what I think you were feeling,

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that's to make sure that I understood what was going on with you

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or

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I mean, that would be reflecting feelings, right? The other one would be

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tracking behavior then reflecting content.

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Oh, when I say what you've said, it's to make sure that I heard you.

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So as long as we're giving the why behind the fact that we're talking

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that usually makes the power and control grab

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not only a little bit less, but it also makes it a little bit quicker.

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And

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here's where I think the the biggest piece of the puzzle here is

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it was absolutely power and control.

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And we understand that the child is basically wanting dictatorial power

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and saying you're not allowed to do anything

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including speak

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that's about as

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authoritarian as you can be.

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And we understand the why there

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he needs that feeling of complete control.

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Yet,

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as I've mentioned in earlier podcast episodes, we don't do our job if we are silent,

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not only does the child feel watched,

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the child does not feel that we are engaged

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and we're not able to say anything therapeutically valuable for a child.

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So it's very important that we continue to try to engage verbally and look

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if they tell us the whole time that we're not allowed to talk,

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we just continue to reflect that I had a child

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that

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I think I've mentioned him in earlier episodes,

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but this was the one that said I was going to jail for quote 80 100 years

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and I wasn't going to get food and I wasn't going to

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get drinks and I wasn't even gonna get out for Christmas.

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I mean, this kid was, boy, it was power and control to the hilt.

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And every time I would talk,

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he would come over and he would write a big X on my notes that I was taking in session,

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he'd write a massive X on it.

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And then he would say if you say one more word,

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I'm taking this and you're never getting it back.

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And he would, in fact, because I would continue to speak,

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he would come over and he would rip my whole portfolio out of my hand.

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He would shove it on a shelf or he would shove it

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in a cubby or he would hide it behind the puppet theater

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and he wouldn't even let me take notes.

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And I mean,

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that was such a huge power and control dynamic for weeks and weeks and weeks.

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And even sometimes I would even just get one word out like I would go,

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you and he would go, I told you not to talk.

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And I mean, and I would go, oh I'm not allowed to talk yet and he'd go shut up.

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And I'm like, oh,

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and I mean, I was always acting like,

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oh OK, I, I forgot I wasn't supposed to talk. Right. So I'm still verbally engaging,

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but I was actually engaging about the fact that I wasn't allowed to talk more than

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I was doing anything therapeutically helpful because he

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literally would not let me get anything out.

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And this went on for weeks.

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But I often thought about that and I was like, if I would have just been silent,

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he gets no interaction, he gets no verbal engagement,

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he gets no therapeutic responses.

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And I would feel really guilty about charging a family for

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a session where I didn't engage in a therapeutically helpful manner.

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We have to interact with kids to do our jobs.

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So that means that we have to find work arounds in scenarios like this.

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And then to answer your final question, Holly, you said, what would we do?

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How to set limits on power or control or aggressive play when they're directed at us?

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Ok.

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So we actually are going to

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consider the same six questions that we discussed earlier.

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Am I safe? Is the child safe? Is something getting broken or damaged?

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If it's no to all those, then it's is this limit necessary.

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Can I consistently enforce this limit?

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Can I allow this behavior to continue and still accept this child?

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If we go through all six of those? And it does not warrant a limit,

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then we just reflect content. We reflect feelings and we track behavior

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now. Should the aggression get to a level where we are no longer safe

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or we cannot allow the behavior to continue and accept the child.

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Then we would set a limit just like we would set a limit on any other behavior.

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But depending on your personality,

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depending on your threshold for aggressive play,

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depending on your ability to withstand

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big power and control play,

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it will change whether or not you're actually setting limits in the playroom.

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I personally don't set limits on aggressive play hardly ever.

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And it's just because I'm comfortable with it and it doesn't really faze me,

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but I know a lot of therapists that, that really bothers them.

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And so it really is kind of a personal decision, but again,

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it's filtered through those six questions.

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And so even if they are being aggressive toward us,

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we determine, is it putting me in a position where I'm no longer safe?

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And or is this a necessary limit and,

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or can I allow this behavior to continue and still accept the child

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if we go through all of that, that will tell us one way or the other,

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whether we need to set the limit?

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Ok. And then

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this doesn't happen often,

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but Holly sent a subsequent email

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and gave us a little bit of an update.

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So I, now, now that I've answered the question, I want to actually share

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the rest of the update because it is an incredible

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ending to this.

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So I want to make sure that you all kind of get a little bit of follow up here,

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which again, I don't typically get

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hey, this is what has happened since, but this is what happened this time.

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So I'm excited.

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All right.

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So she emailed back and said I have some

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follow up info regarding the question I originally asked,

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I've had a few more sessions with this client since then

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and the next session, he immediately put tape again over my mouth. All right.

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So we see the repetitive nature of this. We see the need for power and control persist

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about 10 minutes in. However, he hit his hand on the doll house and it opened a scab.

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So he was bleeding.

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When this happened, I took the tape off my mouth to help him clean it and get a band aid.

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But then I put the tape back on

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after this happened,

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it was like something shifted for him and he

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immediately chose to take the tape off my mouth

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and instead of our puppets being against each

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other and fighting as they were before,

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we were then on the same team fighting against a different puppet

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in sessions since he has not brought up taping my mouth or told me to stop talking.

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And he's continued to have our characters. Usually not always, but most of the time

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be on the same team. And our rapport has grown exponentially

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given this client's history of neglect and attachment trauma.

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It makes sense that the nurturing act of helping

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him while bleeding would mean a lot to him.

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I'm curious, had that not happened,

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how long it would have taken for him to want me to talk again?

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I listened to your podcast a few weeks back where you talked about,

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don't talk to me moments and how we have to be talking to do our job well,

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in the playroom

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and this should be something to set a limit on.

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I completely understand what you're explaining in that podcast.

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But I'm torn because it seemed like allowing this client to put the tape over my mouth

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and then him deciding when to take it off was really therapeutic for him.

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Ok?

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So let me

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give a point of clarification. Holly. So it's not something we have to set a limit on

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when a child tells us not to talk.

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We can't set a limit on a request.

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We can give what we're willing or able to do in response though.

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So you really don't want me to talk.

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But when I say what I see you doing, that's so that I'm making sure that I'm

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on track or I'm making sure that I noticed what happened

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or I'm letting you know that I was paying attention.

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That's actually not a limit.

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That's just setting an expectation of I'm acknowledging and validating.

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You don't want me to,

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but here's why I'm doing it

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and you don't necessarily stop

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according to the request, right?

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So we're not technically setting a limit. So I wanted to make that really clear.

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But let me share some thoughts on what you've described in this follow up email.

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So look at how there was this massive shift.

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Now all of a sudden you and he have an allegiance,

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you and he have become allies and we watch this

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happen in the playroom every single time with a child,

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they reach a point where they feel like we are on their team.

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It's us against

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whatever.

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And

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we're in this together, you're going to walk this journey with me. I can trust you.

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I have rapport built, we have relationship now

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and our allegiance is going to be significant in our play.

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So it switched to collaborative

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and that had been happening apparently because you said

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that you were fighting against each other as puppets.

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So he had already collaboratively included you.

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But now all of a sudden the shift is

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it's you and me against something else rather than you and me against each other.

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That will happen very consistently with every child.

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It's not always that overt obviously,

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but we do see that shift

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and then that's exactly what it is.

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It's a power

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dynamic shift.

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So he had all the power, he needed the power because he was fighting against you.

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So he was trying to make you less powerful

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because you were his enemy, you were the foe.

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And therefore, if you and he are going to be fighting, but you can't talk.

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He's giving himself the upper hand.

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He's putting you in a position of inferiority.

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But now all of a sudden, if you're on the same team,

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he's going to want you to be as strong and

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powerful as possible because you're in it to help him.

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So we can see the power shift that took place there

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and I hear what you're saying.

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you were wondering how long that would have taken for him to want you to talk again?

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Had he not needed help with the band aid?

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I cannot tell you the number of times random things have happened in play sessions

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that were not scripted, not planned. You can't anticipate them.

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They were complete surprises,

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but they have been so therapeutically meaningful

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in a very unexpected way.

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And I think that's one of the beautiful natures

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of child-centered play therapy because sometimes crazy things happen

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and we watch how it becomes a therapeutically valuable moment.

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So I think that that was what happened there and we don't know,

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had that not happened if he would have gotten to

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a place that quickly where he wanted you to talk,

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but because he needed a band aid,

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that's how it unfolded. And that happens often.

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And then finally,

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you said,

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allowing him to put the tape over your mouth and then he

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decided when to take it off was very therapeutic for him.

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I completely agree with you.

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So you would have allowed the tape to remain on

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and you would have been understanding and aware that he needs you to

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have tape on and he needs you to continue to be quiet.

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Yet you would continue to interact with him verbally through the tape.

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And then when he chose to take it off, it would be exactly the same scenario.

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So the tape would have still been on your mouth.

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It just would have been loose enough that you could still speak

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while the tape was covering your mouth.

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And then when he decided for whatever reason, because of the band aid or not,

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that he no longer had to have tape over your mouth.

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It would have been the same therapeutically valuable moment for him.

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So we wouldn't have set a limit on not having the tape,

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but we would have made it work and found a

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work around so that we could still interact verbally.

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So Holly, first of all, thanks so much for the question.

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But then thanks so much for the follow up because it's so exciting when we

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get to hear some new information and how

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things continue to evolve with specific kids.

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All right, y'all, if you are interested in hanging out with me in October,

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I would love for you to attend the APT conference in Georgia.

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And every year they have their national conference and this year it's in Atlanta.

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So

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get a plane ticket, get a train ticket, get in your car,

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however you need to get there. I'm thinking of country songs right now.

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But however, you need to figure out how to get yourself to Atlanta in October.

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We're gonna have a meet up and Friday night is gonna be so much fun.

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I'm working out details right now.

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I would love to get to see you and talk to you.

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I'm gonna be recording podcast episodes live.

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So doing some interviews and some questions and answers and all kinds of things

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would mean so much to me to have as many of you as possible there.

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I know people are coming from Alaska.

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I know people are coming from all over the country.

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I might actually have one or two internationals coming. So

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it would be incredible to meet you. I would love to have you there.

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So please consider coming to the conference.

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I think that would be such an amazing thing.

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And then finally,

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if you would like to reach out to me,

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I would love to hear from you brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

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All right, y'all, I love you. Thanks for hanging out with me. Talk again soon. Bye.

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Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr

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Brenna Hicks. For more episodes and resources.

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Please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.