#46 Dan

Yeah, didn't you tell me there was a story where 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:06.240 someone came up to you and said, hey, are you 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:10.040 Jackie from Heavyweight? And you said, no, is that true? 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:11.840 Yes, I've denied it. 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:13.160 I think it's true. 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:17.200 Why why would you deny it? If people I never 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:18.759 I try not to lie in my life. 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:20.440 There's nothing you lie about. 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:21.479 If I don't have to. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:24.000 In which situations would you lie? 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:25.400 Hmm? 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:28.680 I guess when you make your famous couscous and cutlets 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.440 and you say, Johnny, do you like it? And I say, mm, yes, 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.800 very much? So I love it. I'm so delicious. Oh 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:38.639 it's so good. Oh my goodness. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:39.480 Wow. 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.400 Oh I'm not going to wash my mouth for a week. 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:54.520 Sound familiar Jackie Cohen from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein 0:00:54.720 --> 0:01:07.080 and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Dan right after the break. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:16.320 Hey Dan, Hey, Jonathan, how are you? 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.360 Dan is a serious journalist, like national security correspondent. Serious. 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:24.760 Sorry, I'm just trying to turn off my phone so 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:25.520 it doesn't be. 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:31.080 Turning off your phone during an interview serious journalism. Actually 0:01:31.120 --> 0:01:33.880 I should do the same thing. Dan is a friend 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.479 whom I've known for years, but conversation can still sometimes 0:01:37.520 --> 0:01:42.520 feel like a game of chess. You're looking well, thank 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:55.559 you arrested. Likewise, good of you to say check and mate. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.160 Given what a serious journalist Dan is, I'm surprised he's 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.760 come to me for help. But then his crisis is 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:08.320 not one of national security. His is a crisis of 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.200 the heart, and that is an area in which my 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:16.600 journalism excels. Dan's story all begins in the summer of 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.640 two thousand and three, the night he and his wife, Nancy, 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:20.760 first met. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:26.000 At a dinner party hosted by this American diplomat in Jerusalem, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:31.840 and Nancy got to the dinner late because she was 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.320 out on a date that night. 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.520 A terrible date. I went to see X Men two, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.440 which was unfortunate all the way around. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.360 This is Nancy, also a friend whom I've known for years, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:47.520 and also a serious journalist for the podcast serial in 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:48.520 This American Life. 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:51.000 And I wasn't even going to go to this party 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:53.360 and just thought, oh, for Christ's sake, why am I 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:54.080 going to this? 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:56.320 But then she met Dan. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:57.800 He was quiet. 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:01.959 I noticed that he was just kind of watching and 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:06.960 not being rambunctious. You know, there's a lot of sort 0:03:07.000 --> 0:03:11.800 of false hilarity at parties and that was not something 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:13.240 he was engaging in. 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:16.440 A week later, Dan and Nancy went out on a 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.040 date at an Italian restaurant in downtown Jerusalem. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:22.840 You know, it's July, it was warm. She was wearing 0:03:22.840 --> 0:03:28.640 a tak top. I remember I ordered ravioli and a 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:33.160 beer and she ordered a burger and a whiskey. 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:37.280 Because I don't know, that's the kind of hard drinking, 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:39.440 hard eating gal I was. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.720 Nancy says she'd been on a lot of first dates 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:49.480 and rarely got her hopes up. She was wary anticipating 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.120 the moment, say, when Dan would ask her to see 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:56.320 X Men three. Still, something about Dan drew her in. 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.200 I remember him saying very early on that he was 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:06.280 separated and that he had two kids, and I could 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.080 see that he was kind of bracing for that to 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.040 be a deal breaker for me, and I didn't feel 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:16.680 that way at all. On the contrary, I felt interested 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.680 and excited and yeah, you're a whole person with a 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:29.440 whole person's complications. It was nice, it was fun, but 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:33.800 then something strange happened. Do you want to jump in with. 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:34.520 A question. 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:40.080 Serious journalism. This must be frustrating for you. You must feel 0:04:40.080 --> 0:04:41.960 like I could do both sides of this. What do 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:47.719 I need this tarp before? But yes, indeed, like what happened. 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.440 We're still just in the stage where we're getting the 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.320 main facts. Where are you from? What are you doing 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:58.520 here so far from home? And a woman who was 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:02.680 sitting with her husband at the table right next to us, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:07.760 leaned in towards us and said, hey, you know, excuse me, 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:13.640 sorry for interrupting, but I think I know your father. Dan. 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.320 It chaired with Nancy that his dad lived in California 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:22.480 and helped invent the breakfast cereal cap'n Crunch. Hearing these details, 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:24.080 the woman realized the connection. 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:29.640 She said, that's so funny. He's our friend. We live 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:30.520 next to him. 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:34.599 He throws these great parties. He and his wife are 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:38.480 very generous philanthropists in the community. 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:40.880 You know, I can't believe it, of all the people 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:43.800 to be next to. And it'll be so great when 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:48.240 we tell him we ran into you. And they went 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:51.400 back to their dinner. We went back to ours, and 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.320 Dan looked sort of startled. 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.920 But it wasn't just the surprise of being recognized by 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.920 a stranger seventy five hundred miles from home. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:05.640 It was also surprising for another reason, which is that 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.680 I don't know my father. I have not had contact 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.400 with my father since I was very young. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:17.719 And Dan was very quiet and he said, I actually 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:24.599 don't know my father at all. It was basically like 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.480 our date was kind of split into two parts, and 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.880 the first part happened before that moment with a couple 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.640 next to us, and the second part happened afterward. It 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:38.000 just turned into a completely different conversation that was like, 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:39.240 here's the. 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:46.839 Deal, here was the deal, leaning in so that the 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.280 couple wouldn't hear. Dan explained that his parents split up 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:53.760 when he was five. It was a very acrimonious divorce, 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.400 and afterwards his father essentially disappeared from his and his 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.000 sister's life. Their mother struggled to raise the two kids 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.120 on her own. In life with Dan's mother wasn't easy. 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.920 She was a Holocaust survivor, and Dan says she carried 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.960 the trauma of those years for the rest of her life. 0:07:11.240 --> 0:07:16.400 And because he told that whole story, I then ended 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:19.680 up telling the whole complicated story of my own, my 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:20.800 own parents' divorce. 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.880 You know, suddenly we were talking about things that were real. 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.600 It created this intimacy that, you know, so you can 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:32.800 go on five days and not get to that. 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:36.640 Back at the neighboring table, the couple paid the check 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:39.880 and got up to leave, but before they did, the 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:41.600 woman came over once more. 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:44.360 And said, Hey, do you mind if I take a 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:45.400 photo of you two? 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:49.040 This will be so funny. Let's take a picture of 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.440 you and we'll send it to your father. 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.800 And Nancy and I kind of looked at each other. 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.840 It was this look of Okay, this is weird, but. 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.640 Why not, and we kind of leaned. 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:06.920 In, I think, and maybe even I put my arm 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:08.360 around Nancy and. 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:09.280 They took this picture. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.960 Dan and Nancy posed frozen smiles, hiding their real smiles 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.080 at the fact that this woman adjusting her camera knew 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:22.160 nothing of what they knew. 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.080 It was pretty funny. I think at some point they 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.160 even said, like, we didn't even know he had a son, 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:33.000 and I was like, oh, lady, you have no idea. 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.520 It was like we had an experience together right right, 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.040 You know, we had this inside joke already. 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:48.560 After the photo, things moved quickly. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.360 I think I gave Nancy the key to my apartment 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:53.320 within two weeks of that date. 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.160 The photo was a chance, you know, it gave us 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.040 a chance to both kind of take the first big 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:00.760 leap of our relationship. 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.080 Would you say that the woman sitting beside you was 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.160 sort of like a cherub, but rather than carrying a 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:13.200 bow and arrow, she was holding a camera. Would you 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:14.760 say that? Would you say that, Nancy? 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.319 I wouldn't say that, but I would support your saying. 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:23.280 That, And with Nancy's full support behind me, I will 0:09:23.320 --> 0:09:26.880 say that because Dan and Nancy have now been together 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:28.040 for nineteen years. 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.000 I mean, you know Nancy, so you know how lovely 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.920 she is and funny and warm and all that was 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:40.920 on display right away that evening, and I fell in 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:43.640 love with her at that dinner. 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:48.480 And that first spark was captured in the photo. Because 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:51.000 of crashed hard drives, Dan and Nancy have lost the 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.480 photos from the beginning of their relationship. So while those 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.840 photos have certainly gone, the first photo, the most important photo, 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.040 might not be, and so Dan has come to me 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.679 to find it. But here's the catch. If the woman 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.439 with the camera kept her promise, then the photo is 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.360 in the hands of Dan's father, and I am. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:14.280 Not particularly interested in trying to reach out to my 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:19.360 father directly or indirectly. In other words, This is what 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:24.480 might make it more tricky if he has the photo. 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:25.840 I don't want to go that road. 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.960 It's been about fifty years since Dan's father walked out 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.280 on the family. Dan isn't looking to make contact now. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.360 But I can't help thinking that as much as Dan 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.160 wants a photo, some part of him must also be 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.200 wanting something more from his dad. The strange symmetry is 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.720 hard to ignore. The thing Dan wants most is in 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.520 the hands of the person he wants to talk to least. 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:51.400 But Dan is adamant. 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.760 Yeah, the mission here is not let's reach out to 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:58.600 him and get to know him. I really just want 0:10:58.640 --> 0:10:59.120 the photo. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.199 Are you saying sometimes a photo is just a photo exactly? 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:05.000 Yeah. 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.480 Yeah, I don't think it's just a photograph. 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:14.040 No, But I don't think I can know everything that 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:19.280 it means to him necessarily. I think it's hard to 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.800 want anything from a parent who has been so thoroughly absent. 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:26.640 Yeah, so thoroughly. 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:33.680 Derelict. Does he remember anything about his father? 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:55.080 I'm hesitating. You know, this is small, but it's personal. 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:05.560 It's a sad memory. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:09.000 I mean to me, it's sad, Okay, to me, it's sad. 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:19.240 He told me he remembered his father rubbing his back. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:33.880 I rub his back a lot. 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.920 With Dan's father in the no fly zone. It leaves 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.120 only one person who might have a copy of the photo, 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:41.040 the woman with the camera. Do you remember what she 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:41.560 looked like? 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.480 I think she had curly brown hair, and I can 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.400 get Nancy's take on this as. 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.839 Well, dark hair like not really a beehive, but sort 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.360 of up and kind of pin curlsy or something. 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.120 Yeah. I think maybe she said something about the Jewish community, 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.600 so I wouldn't be surprised if they're active in the 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:03.600 Jewish community there. 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.160 I look at the notes I've been taking, an older 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:13.559 possibly Jewish woman from California who, when traveling to Israel 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.800 in two thousand and three, maybe wore her hair in 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.240 a beehive. I mean, this is really this isn't really 0:13:20.280 --> 0:13:21.679 not a lot, you know. 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.080 Yeah, it's going to be hard finding her as a 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:29.600 big obstacle. And then eighteen years later, does she have 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.200 this photo lying around? 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:34.760 I begin my search for the woman with the camera 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:42.000 where it all began. Buck Facacia Bar, the restaurant in 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.200 Jerusalem where Dan and Nancy had their first date. Wielding 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.920 what's left of my bar Mitzvalessen language skills. My plan 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:55.880 is to endear myself to the Fakacia bar staff uh shalom. 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:11.160 Is there a manager maybe on second Slussia? Hello shalom? Hello, 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.679 how could I have you? I tell the manager about 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:19.160 my two friends who had their first date at his restaurant, yes, 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:25.400 eighteen years ago. Oh nice, Yeah, And encouraged by his interest, 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.360 I explained the whole story, how I'm trying to find 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:30.880 the woman with a camera, and how maybe he has 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.120 her credit card receipt on file. Luckily, Dan and Nancy 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.920 remember the exact day of their date, July first, two 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.200 thousand and three. So yeah, you could go back to 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.360 the computer just type in two thousand and three. 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.240 Oh man, we're not so much technology, you know. 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:51.960 It's no shating like seven eight computer, different computers, you know, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:57.920 so nothing you could do in other words, no nothing nothing, Okay, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:01.760 thank you for taking the time to your shalom. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:02.280 Hello. 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:08.480 So I try something else. Since the woman was a 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.160 neighbor of Dan's father, I look up his address and 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:15.360 contact the county assessor's office. I request historical records of 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:17.920 property owners in his town from two thousand and three. 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.960 But it turns out that like the catchy bar. They 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.720 aren't very technology and don't keep data dating back that far. 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:30.920 Unable to find a list of past neighbors, I decide 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.880 to try calling present ones. Maybe the woman with the 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:36.360 camera is still living in the same neighborhood as she 0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.960 was in two thousand and three, or at the very least, 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.720 maybe someone who knows her does. My producer Stevie and 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:51.040 I turned to the white pages and start phoning Hello. Hello, 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.720 my name is Jonathan Goldstein. The reason I'm phoning is 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.880 I do a pot. Are you familiar with podcasts? 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:00.840 No? 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:02.120 I don't have time for anything. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:03.440 I just not enough to thank you. 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:08.360 I'll get to the point, ma'am. Hello. The neighbors rarely 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:11.000 let me get to the point, and even when they do, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:15.080 I mostly met with one of two reactions pity. 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:18.200 Good look. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:20.680 Or non pity. 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:22.560 I haven't photographed anybody. 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:23.640 I've been in the little bar. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.160 I know nothing about what you're talking about, so you're 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.320 pointless coming here and talking to mean thank you? 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:29.000 Bye? 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:31.120 All right? 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.080 Well, did you say I've never been to a noodle bar? 0:16:34.360 --> 0:16:36.040 Uh huh? 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:38.320 All right, we can cross that one off the list. 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.600 After dozens of calls to random strangers, I begin to 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.600 lose hope. But since Dan thought the woman with the 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.360 camera might have known as father through the Jewish community, 0:16:48.800 --> 0:16:51.720 I phone every synagogue within an hour's drive of Dan's 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:55.000 father's neighborhood. I get the rabbis to include a call 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.440 out and their e newsletters. It doesn't yield a thing. 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.520 With the futility of finding a nameless woman with an 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:08.280 indeterminate address, I reach back out to Dan. It seems 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:12.520 as though it might be impossible without you know, in 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.080 some way it kind of connecting to your father. 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.160 Yeah. Nancy and I talked a bit about it. 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:23.919 Perhaps anticipating the shortcomings of my journalisming, Nancy devised a strategy. 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.920 Dan's fear is that his dad will think this is 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.359 an attempt to reconcile, to reconnect. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.720 And so what I said was Jonathan could just call 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:39.440 him and say no, no, no, no no no, I'm 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:41.360 just here for the photo. If you could just give 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:43.639 us the photo, that's all I want. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.679 Dan is comfortable with this approach, but before giving me 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.639 the green light, he says, there's one last person I 0:17:50.720 --> 0:17:51.320 need to call. 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.359 I mean, we share a lot and we probably did 0:17:56.480 --> 0:17:58.320 actually raise one another. 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:03.879 This is Abby, Dan's older sister. Given the difficulty of 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:06.640 their childhood, they've always sort of been a team of two, 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.399 so Dan wants to make sure she's okay with my 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:13.200 contacting their father. Abby tells me that over the years, 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.200 she and Dan have reached out to their father a 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:19.160 number of times, almost always to no response. The last 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.359 time for Dan was twenty years ago, when he was 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.280 in his mid thirties. For Abby, it was March of 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.080 last year. Dan and Abbey's mother had just died, and 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.760 Abby was going through her mom's belongings when she found 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:34.200 some photos of her parents taken early in their relationship, 0:18:34.880 --> 0:18:36.160 and they were happy pictures. 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.200 They were pictures of love and you know, and passion. 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:42.760 And so I wrote to him and I said, I've 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.119 been going through these pictures and I seen lots of 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.600 beautiful pictures of you and my mom, and I just 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:50.639 wanted you to know that my mom has passed and 0:18:52.040 --> 0:18:54.520 it looks like there were times that were also beautiful. 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:59.840 And then I ended by saying I have a beautiful family, 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.760 and I'm very lucky, and Danny is lucky. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.159 Abby sent the letter not expecting to hear back, but 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:13.960 about two weeks later, her father answered, and he said. 0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:19.879 Something to the fact of we weren't happy, and he 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:24.000 said family is very important. But he didn't you know, 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.440 he didn't say anything about my children, or he didn't 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.399 say anything about even my loss. I mean, he didn't 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:32.760 have the you know, the I guess the depths, the 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:34.160 emotional depths. 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:36.760 Which is why she doesn't see the point in asking 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.679 her father for help, even though we're only asking for 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:42.320 the kind of small effort you'd expect anyone to make. 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:44.639 If I have a photo, you'll call me up and 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:46.640 you'll say, Abby, do you have the photo? And I'll say, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.720 oh my god, this is so difficult. But ultimately I'll 0:19:50.760 --> 0:19:53.439 look for it and then he will sense that I 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:58.880 care enough to look. But we're not going to get 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.920 that from her father. He doesn't care enough. 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:06.960 And no matter how old you are or what you 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:09.560 might say to the contrary, that hurts. 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.160 If you look at us, you think, oh, those two 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.919 are just regular people. But I don't think we are 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:24.040 a regular I think deep inside, we're still researching and 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:31.200 we're trying to understand, like why why would a parent 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.760 not want contact with us? And nobody's going to give 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:40.520 us that answer. So it's really. 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:46.040 Painful in the end, even though Abby is skeptical her 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:49.159 father will help. She gives me your blessing to try. 0:20:49.840 --> 0:20:50.680 I mean, if that's. 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.320 What Danny feels like is the right thing to do, 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:59.680 then I would support that. I want that photo. I 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.360 want that photo for Danny, but not at the price 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:08.720 of him being hurt. I don't think the photo is 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:09.320 worth not. 0:21:27.320 --> 0:21:29.919 Dan's father is my last chance to score the photo, 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.400 and I don't want to blow it, which is why 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.000 I've been putting off the call. I don't want him 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.399 to hang up on me, and from what Abby told me, 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.800 it seems like there's a definite chance he might. But 0:21:40.880 --> 0:21:43.919 on a Monday afternoon, a few days after speaking with Abby, 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.560 I pick up the phone. Dan's father is in his 0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.080 late eighties, but he still works. When I phone his office, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.720 a friendly woman tells me he's hard of hearing, and 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.560 then she gives me a cell phone number. After three rings, 0:21:57.800 --> 0:21:58.959 Dan's father picks up. 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:00.200 Hello. 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:05.040 He says, Hello, I say loudly, but not too loudly. 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:07.719 I hope it's okay that I'm calling you on your 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.960 cell phone. Well, I don't know what you're calling about, 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:15.320 he says. For the next two minutes, they nervously explain 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:19.200 about Ficacia bar about how twenty years ago his neighbor 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.680 took a photograph of his son, and how I'm now 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.520 looking for that photograph. When I'm done, I'm met by 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.160 a silence that feels long enough to make me wonder 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:30.919 whether he'd hung up somewhere around my explanation of what 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:35.800 a podcast is. Finally, he says, so you're asking me 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:41.080 if I have this photograph. Yes, yes, I say, Dan's 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.679 father lets loose a laugh, not a mean laugh, like 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:47.199 and you think I'm going to help you with this. 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.359 It's free and amused, sounding a hearty and vigorous laugh. 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:58.840 I'm not sure what to make of it. Dan's father 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.600 says he has no memory of any photo, but he 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.679 does remember the incident, being told by his neighbor that 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.920 she'd seen Dan. He tells me she since moved away 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:10.680 and he doesn't remember her name, but that he'll look 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:15.280 for it try and reach me tomorrow. He says. When 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.119 I pick up the phone to call Dan's dad a 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:20.280 second time, I'm pretty sure I'll get blown off, that 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.760 he'll screen my call or maybe tell me sorry I 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:27.600 couldn't find her. But just as he'd promised, Dan's father 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.880 looked for his old neighbor's name and found it. I'll 0:23:31.880 --> 0:23:34.280 tell you her name, he says. But that's all I know. 0:23:34.920 --> 0:23:37.680 I haven't spoken with her, so if you can find her, 0:23:37.880 --> 0:23:41.040 you can ask her directly. I ask him if he 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.760 remembers anything more about the conversation years ago when she 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:48.639 told him she'd seen Dan. Was he surprised, you know? 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:52.159 He says, I was honest with you. I got you 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:55.040 the name of the person. That's all I can do. 0:23:55.920 --> 0:24:01.800 All right, Yes, yes, I say, sensing. Well, thank you 0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:09.960 so much, and have a good day you too, he says. Bye. 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.040 When I get off the phone with Dan's dad, I 0:24:13.080 --> 0:24:15.040 look at my notes where I've written down the name 0:24:15.080 --> 0:24:19.480 of the woman with the camera, and that name is Deborah. 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:25.160 Once I have Deborah's name, it's not hard to find her. 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:29.359 She still lives in California. At first phone debraah a 0:24:29.359 --> 0:24:32.000 few days ago. She was on her way out and 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:34.200 asked if I could call her back on Thursday. 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:35.800 Very nice timing. 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:40.240 Oh good good, I'm glad I caught you. It turns out, 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.480 Deborah remembers clearly the night she and her late husband 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:46.560 ate at Facacia Bar, seated next to Dan and. 0:24:46.600 --> 0:24:51.639 Nancy, I'm a terrible eavesdropper. I just can't help it 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:54.800 because I love people's stories. Yeah, and I said to 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.600 my husband, I'm betting first date. And he said something 0:24:58.640 --> 0:24:59.600 to me like stop it. 0:25:00.400 --> 0:25:03.560 But Deborah couldn't stop it. She kept listening for what 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:04.360 Dan would say. 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:04.760 Next. 0:25:05.440 --> 0:25:09.359 He said, my father invented the flavor for Captain Crunch. 0:25:10.840 --> 0:25:14.600 Huh so much. Okay, there can't be two of those 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:18.920 people in the world. You know. My recollection is that 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.159 we printed a copy of the picture and took it 0:25:22.200 --> 0:25:22.960 to give his. 0:25:22.880 --> 0:25:28.639 Father, despite Dan's father not remembering any photograph. In Debra's telling, 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:30.320 she did show it to him. 0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:35.320 But my heart memory is that he didn't really want it, 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.320 which was, you know, made me really sad. 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:42.199 It turns out Debra snapped the photo knowing more than 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:46.200 Dan and Nancy imagined. She knew Dan's father had remarried, 0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:48.800 and she knew he was estranged from his old family, 0:25:49.680 --> 0:25:51.800 but a photo of his son seemed like something that 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:55.200 might warm him. Deborah was a second wife and had 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:58.440 seen her fair share of difficult family dynamics. 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:01.400 And my husband went through periods of being estranged from 0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:06.639 his son, and one time someone came up to us 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:09.160 in a restaurant and said, oh, you must be Jeffrey's father, 0:26:09.640 --> 0:26:14.280 and Russell was tickled. You know, he's still his son, 0:26:15.080 --> 0:26:20.000 so you know, I don't know. What we hoped was 0:26:20.000 --> 0:26:26.240 the charming story of a sweet coincidence received a very 0:26:26.320 --> 0:26:37.000 still reception, if you know what I mean, Yeah, these 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:42.840 stories of estrangement. I think one of the hardest things. 0:26:42.880 --> 0:26:49.760 One of the hardest things is that we think we're alone. 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:53.760 For years, Deborah worked at a healing center, helping residents 0:26:53.800 --> 0:26:56.719 there as they approached end of life. One day at 0:26:56.720 --> 0:26:59.840 a volunteers meeting, someone told the story of an elderly 0:27:00.600 --> 0:27:02.520 estrangement from their children. 0:27:02.960 --> 0:27:08.600 And pretty much everyone around the table had some variation 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:12.880 of estrangement from someone that they thought they'd been very 0:27:12.920 --> 0:27:17.280 close to who was suddenly gone from their lives, and 0:27:17.520 --> 0:27:23.720 it was just very quite. The word is liberating to 0:27:23.800 --> 0:27:26.639 know that this is a human condition that we don't 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:32.080 talk about much. There are some relationships that you just 0:27:32.280 --> 0:27:36.959 kind of, I don't know, on a cellular level, that 0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:38.960 you that you long for even if you know you 0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:44.080 can't have them. So when you talk to Dan again, 0:27:45.320 --> 0:27:50.600 tell me it's not alone. 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:55.040 Deborah says that as requested, She did a search for 0:27:55.080 --> 0:27:56.560 the photo and. 0:27:58.040 --> 0:27:58.680 I found it. 0:27:58.800 --> 0:27:59.480 I found it. 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:00.840 You believe it. 0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:02.160 I found it. 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:05.920 Deborah had cared enough to look. 0:28:12.960 --> 0:28:13.560 Hi. 0:28:14.480 --> 0:28:17.399 Hi, Hello. So the. 0:28:19.359 --> 0:28:23.919 Long and short of it is, we found the photo. 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:26.879 Get the fuck out? 0:28:27.320 --> 0:28:29.040 Wow? What come on? 0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:30.520 Yeah? We found it? 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:31.520 Oh my god. 0:28:31.720 --> 0:28:34.800 Okay, I did not expect you to say that at all. 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:37.679 Yeah, and I didn't think. I didn't think we would. 0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:45.080 Frankly, how the fuck did you do this? How did 0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:45.880 you pull it off? 0:28:47.160 --> 0:28:50.080 I tell Dan and Nancy about Deborah, who for almost 0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.480 twenty years held onto the photograph of an estranged son 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.880 of an old neighbor. Deborah says she kept it because 0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:59.200 she was touched that Dan, who must have held such 0:28:59.240 --> 0:29:02.440 anger towards this father, had still been so gracious with her. 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:07.240 So that that changes my sense of what was happening, 0:29:07.360 --> 0:29:11.760 because I thought I remembered her having said I didn't 0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:15.480 know he had a son, that she really had no idea. 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:19.320 But Deborah did have an idea. So while running into 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:22.800 Deborah was pure luck, her snapping of the photograph hadn't been. 0:29:23.560 --> 0:29:24.640 It was well intentioned. 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:26.800 God bless this lady. 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:26.960 Man. 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:32.880 I know, Yeah, I fe feel very warm towards Deborah. 0:29:33.000 --> 0:29:35.800 Of course, Dan wants to know how I found Deborah 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:39.080 in the first place. I ended up calling your father 0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:43.920 to ask, which brings me to his father, who answered 0:29:43.920 --> 0:29:44.320 my call. 0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:50.440 I find it very surprising. I mean, he has never 0:29:50.480 --> 0:29:56.280 been responsive to communications with my sister and I, so yeah, 0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:57.560 I'm surprised. 0:29:58.360 --> 0:30:00.760 I will also say that I talked to to Abby 0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:03.200 just a few days ago and I told her about 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:03.800 the whole thing. 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:07.520 I mean, I'm so surprised. I'm so surprised that he 0:30:07.560 --> 0:30:10.320 went to look for the name. I didn't think it 0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:15.640 was possible. I thought he wouldn't bother Maybe for just 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:19.760 a brief moment, he recognized a need. 0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:25.040 I mean, you know, like you see though at the 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.000 same time, like it's small. 0:30:28.640 --> 0:30:37.239 It's significant. Hmmm, it means something I don't know, in 0:30:37.280 --> 0:30:41.840 a Hollywood dream movie. He did it for Danny and 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:46.600 he thought about it and he imagined him. But I'm 0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:52.200 not so sure this is a Hollywood moment. Yeah, but 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:55.080 maybe he did see Danny in this. 0:30:58.480 --> 0:31:03.000 I don't know what you make of that. 0:31:03.000 --> 0:31:04.640 That's his I'm not buying it face. 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:09.280 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe I don't. She's 0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:11.959 she might be a little more charitable about it. 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:17.080 Yeah, It's been decades of radio silence from Dan's father, 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:20.400 and in that time Dan has come to wonder less 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:22.800 about how someone could do that to a son and 0:31:22.920 --> 0:31:25.160 more about how someone could do that to himself. 0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:30.440 I feel intuitively that this must plague my father. I 0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:34.320 kind of think that to turn away from, you know, 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:38.040 a five year old and a seven year old and 0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:43.480 just cut yourself off requires really sort of emptying out 0:31:43.960 --> 0:31:47.200 your heart. And it is just baffling to me that 0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:51.280 still at this age, he wouldn't figure out how to 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.720 do something about it for his own good so that 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.880 he doesn't take this with him. 0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:00.479 Dan says that when he split up with his first wife, 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:03.160 his son was the same age as he was when 0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.840 his parents divorced. Dan wanted to do things differently. 0:32:07.760 --> 0:32:11.000 I was just very conscious of doing everything we needed 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:12.640 to do to be a presence in his life, for 0:32:12.680 --> 0:32:14.920 both his mom and for me to be always a 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:17.280 presence in his life. And we did crazy, crazy things. 0:32:18.080 --> 0:32:21.720 Crazy things like multiple transatlantic moves from Israel to the 0:32:21.840 --> 0:32:25.880 US and back, all five of them, Dan, his ex wife, 0:32:26.000 --> 0:32:29.560 his two kids, and Nancy. Things like living in neighboring 0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:33.280 towns as the kids grew up celebrating Thanksgiving as one 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:36.200 big family. It wasn't always easy. 0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:40.480 But in every way I can explain or think of, 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:44.200 it has made a difference. And it was very conscious 0:32:44.200 --> 0:32:46.320 and very much a kind of a reaction to the 0:32:46.320 --> 0:32:48.840 way that he went about things. They went about things, 0:32:50.160 --> 0:32:50.640 And just. 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:53.240 To say, there were a lot of things I loved, 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:56.360 and I knew that I loved about Danny, but his 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.120 relationship with his children was at the center of it. 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:05.320 And his ex wife Tommy, we're all kind of in 0:33:05.360 --> 0:33:08.480 a big, big stew together. We have been the whole time. 0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:11.760 And she's been game for the weirdness too. 0:33:12.120 --> 0:33:14.120 Shout out to my ex she's pretty great. 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:19.480 They don't normally do shout out. It's not that kind 0:33:19.480 --> 0:33:24.680 of radio show, but serious journalism. Do you want to 0:33:24.720 --> 0:33:25.320 see the photo? 0:33:27.240 --> 0:33:29.960 Yes, yes I would, Jonathan, I'd like to see the photo. 0:33:30.520 --> 0:33:33.760 Before our conversation. I had it framed and wrapped. 0:33:41.320 --> 0:33:46.920 Oh my god, Oh Jesus, my god, this is so 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.760 much better than I thought even, Oh my god. 0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:50.640 Well. 0:33:52.080 --> 0:33:54.520 In the photo, Dan and Nancy are sitting next to 0:33:54.560 --> 0:33:57.760 each other at a round wooden table. Dan's body is 0:33:57.800 --> 0:34:02.000 angled towards Nancy, Nancy smiling and leaning towards Dan. 0:34:03.040 --> 0:34:12.640 Look at you, Jesus Christ. Nancy. Oh my god, man, wow, 0:34:13.040 --> 0:34:16.240 I totally remembered that tank top. It's smile. 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:20.520 Dan is often so serious, but in the photo he's 0:34:20.520 --> 0:34:23.560 smiling so wide you can see all his teeth. He 0:34:23.640 --> 0:34:25.360 looks unencumbered at ease. 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:28.760 Yeah. No, it's it's sort of remarkably not awkward. 0:34:29.040 --> 0:34:31.080 Yeah, we just look very relaxed. 0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:32.520 We look awesome. 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:37.080 I guess sometimes a photo is just a photo, or 0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:39.480 in this case, a really great photo. 0:34:40.120 --> 0:34:46.040 Yeah, Nancy, I oh my god, you just you look 0:34:46.120 --> 0:34:49.319 fucking adorable. You marry me all over I would marry 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:50.040 you all over again. 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:05.040 Dan's daughter is getting married this summer in Israel, and 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:08.040 Dan and Nancy will be there, along with Dan's son, 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:11.560 his ex wife Tommy. Shout out to his ex wife Tommy, 0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:15.960 and his sister Abby two, who just recently became a grandmother. 0:35:17.520 --> 0:35:20.080 Dan says whenever he visits there's always a lot of 0:35:20.080 --> 0:35:23.840 requests for stuff from America, but along with the Sephora 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:28.520 makeup and Adida sneakers, he'll be bringing the photo to 0:35:28.600 --> 0:36:09.920 share with his whole family. Now that the Fernituers returned. 0:36:09.440 --> 0:36:17.360 To its goodwill home, now that the last month's rant 0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:18.799 is scheming with. 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:22.359 The damnage, take this moment. 0:36:22.160 --> 0:36:27.080 To do so, if we meant it, if we. 0:36:27.320 --> 0:36:36.440 Talk but felt around for far too from pas it accidentally. 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:45.400 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:49.920 Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein, along with Moheiney mcgauker. Our 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:53.920 senior producer is Khalila Holt. Production help from Damiano Marquetti. 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:58.680 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Caitlin Kenny, Phoebe Flanagan, 0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:02.680 and Jackie Cohen. Nancy Updike, who you heard in this episode, 0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:05.800 is coming out with a new series called We Were Three, 0:37:06.160 --> 0:37:10.399 which drops on October thirteenth from Serial Productions. Bobby Lord 0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:14.240 mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Sampson, 0:37:14.360 --> 0:37:17.759 Michael Hurst, and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be 0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:22.000 found on our website, Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our 0:37:22.040 --> 0:37:25.160 theme song is by The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records. 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:28.200 Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:31.759 Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll be back with a 0:37:31.800 --> 0:37:33.800 new episode next week