Why electrochemistry lies at the heart of modern technology

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of the

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Physics World weekly podcast,

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which is supported by American Elements.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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In this episode, I'm in conversation

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with Colm O'Dwyer,

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who is professor of chemical energy at University

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College Cork in Ireland

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and president of the Electrochemical

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Society.

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O'Dwyer talks about the role that electrochemistry

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plays in the development of modern technologies,

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including batteries,

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semiconductor chips, and pharmaceuticals.

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We also chat about the role that the

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Electrochemical

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Society plays in advancing the theory and practice

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of electrochemistry

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and solid state sciences.

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We also speak about how electrochemists

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collaborate

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with scientists

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and engineers

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in other fields,

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including physics.

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This episode is supported by American Elements,

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the world's leading manufacturer of engineered and advanced

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materials.

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American Elements is a long standing leader in

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electrochemistry and battery technology,

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serving in 2001

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as materials

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lead partner

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in the United States Department of Energy's

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Solid State Energy Conversion

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Alliance,

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commonly known as the CICA program,

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for the development of efficient

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solid oxide fuel cells.

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The company was solely responsible for developing,

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manufacturing,

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testing,

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and certifying

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novel anodes, cathodes, and electrolytes

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for fellow industry partners, Honeywell,

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GE, and Siemens.

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The company has developed and commercially launched

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many new battery cathode,

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anode, and electrolyte compositions

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in common use today,

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including

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the low cost nickel cermet anode.

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It was the world's 1st company globally

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to commercially offer perovskite

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cathodes,

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such as lanthanum,

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strontium,

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manganite

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in standardized

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rheology inks for screen printing.

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Trusted by researchers and industries

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the world over,

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American Elements is helping shape the future

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of battery and electrochemistry

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technology.

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Hi, Colm. Welcome to the podcast.

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Hi, Hamish. Glad to be here. So, Colm,

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you're the president of the Electrochemical

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Society. Can you tell us a bit about

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the organization?

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Who who are its members? What are its

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goals? What's it up to at the moment?

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Oh, sure. The Electrochemical

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Society

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or ECS as as most people know it

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as,

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is a society of members and a professional

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organization. It was founded way back in 1902.

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So it's a 122

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years old and counting, and it has a

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primary mission. It has changed a little over

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the years, but it's dedicated to advancing the

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theory and practice of electrochemistry

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and the solid state sciences and technologies. So

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that's the mantra for the society's mission and

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its overarching goal. It's headquartered in Pennington, New

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Jersey in the US.

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But we have a global community of over

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8,000 members and tens of thousands of people

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who interact with the society at meetings,

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journal publications,

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and lots more besides.

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And the topical interest areas, that's what we

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refer to them as. So there's 13 of

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those.

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And they define

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the academic

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and industry interface, the topics that the people

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would come to meetings to hear talks about,

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the topics that would be in the journals,

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then and many of our online articles. And

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these range from

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batteries and fuel cells and electrochemical

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energy storage and conversion technologies

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through sensors, material sciences,

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energy,

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electronics,

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solid state

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chip making and solid state materials

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and and the environment.

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And it it the the society really is

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a hub for

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knowledge dissemination,

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and that's how I really see it.

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Both peer reviewed publications,

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like the journal of the Electrochemical

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Society is over a century old. It's very,

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very well known among the community.

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But the core

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interaction with all of our members and with,

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you know, the public is is our biannual

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meetings.

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So ECS would hold a spring meeting and

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a fall or autumn meeting,

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every single year, pretty much every year since

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its inception.

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And these are very, very well attended, and

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that's our core way of bringing everyone in

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the community together.

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People working on semiconductors,

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people working on batteries, and everything in between

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all come together in the same place. And

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we have an organizational

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structure

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with an executive committee and many members, and

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it's all based on volunteer interaction. So it's

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a a nonprofit society, and everyone like me,

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colleagues,

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and

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organizers,

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symposia,

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and at all levels in society are all

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volunteers from from universities and from industry.

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I see. And, Carm, I want to ask

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you specifically

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about,

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some of the applications of, electrochemistry

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that you've mentioned.

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It plays, electrochemistry

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that is, plays crucial roles in modern technology,

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particularly in the semiconductor

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and energy storage

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industries.

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Can you talk a bit about how electrochemistry

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is driving

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innovation

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in those key sectors. And and maybe, you

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know, could you start with semiconductors?

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Because

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I, you know, I suppose as a physicist,

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I wasn't really aware

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of,

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how much electrochemistry

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is used in the semiconductor industries. So could

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you talk a bit about that?

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Sure.

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Electrochemistry

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as it as a really broad discipline

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is

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somewhat hidden behind

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some of the processes that happen in all

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of semiconductor manufacturing and in modification

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and even synthesis of some semiconductor materials. But

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it's there.

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In classical

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chip making,

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electro deposition is a key process step.

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And that's a that's a core technology and

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process in in chip making and then semiconductor

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processing and manufacturing. And that's essentially a purely

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a classical electrochemical technique

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where you have your semiconductor

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or your substrate or whatever you want to

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deposit on, whether it's patterned, whether it's not

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in a solution

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containing the the material that you'd eventually want

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to deposit. And it's a classical Faraday type

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process, and you can control how much of

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the material is deposited on the surface

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depending on the current you apply and how

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long you apply it for.

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And that is used in so many different

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processes in

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electrochemical methods and

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techniques, but it's a core process in semiconductor

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and manufacturing.

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So was etching.

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And so you can do etching and pattern

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relief and formation within semiconductor processing

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in lots of different

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semiconductor

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based technologies.

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But one of the core etching techniques

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is either chemical etching in solution,

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or you can have electrochemical etching where you'd

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like to control

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the quality and the smoothness

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of the etched features on a on a

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very

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complex

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semiconductor process. And that can also be done,

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electrochemically

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in solutions.

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You can't in in in the in the

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realm of compound semiconductors,

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then electrochemistry

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is

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is very interesting and and objectively important here

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too.

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For example, in solar photovoltaics,

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a really good example where you have

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binary compounds, ternary compounds, compounds containing 2, 3,

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4, or more elements.

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When they form their final crystal structure, they're

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really active

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photovoltaic materials,

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and these can be grown using electrodeposition.

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And electrochemical growth has this really nice advantage

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that the fundamental idea is that the growth

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will happen at the interface between one material

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and another or between the material and the

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substrate that you want to grow it on.

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And there has to be an electrical connection

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there. So there's charge transfer from

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wire up the substrate

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and connect it to whatever's happening in solution,

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and the material will only grow

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where the charge transfer is happening. So you

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ensure that you can often have very clean

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interfaces

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between one material and another that you can

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grow iteratively

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using electro deposition and electrochemical growth. So it's

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very useful for for those materials in solar

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affordable takes. And I guess the other,

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aspect or the fundamental aspect in

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semiconductor processing is metallization.

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Now these are for,

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conductivity,

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wiring within chips, interconnects, they're often referred to.

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These are typically done using

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vapor

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phase methods. But there are ways of doing

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it depending on the sizes

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of the features or what type of device,

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what type of chip you're making, where you

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would like to be able to metallize using

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electrochemical methods. And so that's often used,

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also.

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I see. And I suppose in in the

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big one for, I suppose, someone like me

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who's

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naive about, about electrochemistry

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is

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batteries. And I mean, I'm guessing that a

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battery is

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is

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an electrochemical

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device, and lots of electrochemists

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around the world are are working very hard

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on coming up with

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ways of improving batteries and developing new batteries.

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So can you talk a bit about

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battery research? I know I know it's a

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huge field, but maybe if you could pick

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out a few highlights at the moment,

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that are of interest to electrochemists.

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Right. So

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at at the moment, it's probably one of

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the

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core examples of where electrochemistry has really, really

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become more familiar to not just scientists outside

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of electrochemistry, but to the public too.

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And from the inception, I think it would

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be the lithium ion battery

286
00:11:17,794 --> 00:11:19,815
that would be the most familiar to

287
00:11:20,674 --> 00:11:21,975
most. Electrochemistry

288
00:11:22,434 --> 00:11:23,334
is the core

289
00:11:24,754 --> 00:11:26,914
process that happens in these. So it's it's

290
00:11:26,914 --> 00:11:28,134
a material science

291
00:11:29,929 --> 00:11:31,230
concept where you have

292
00:11:31,929 --> 00:11:34,970
a electrode that's a positive and electrode that's

293
00:11:34,970 --> 00:11:37,129
negative, and then you have a liquid in

294
00:11:37,129 --> 00:11:37,629
between,

295
00:11:38,009 --> 00:11:41,629
and that forms essentially your your battery system.

296
00:11:42,684 --> 00:11:43,824
To control this,

297
00:11:44,524 --> 00:11:45,024
it's

298
00:11:45,725 --> 00:11:47,504
a purely electrochemical process.

299
00:11:47,804 --> 00:11:49,024
So you can drive

300
00:11:49,565 --> 00:11:52,204
electrons into the battery when you want to

301
00:11:52,204 --> 00:11:54,784
charge it up, and you can have electrons

302
00:11:54,924 --> 00:11:57,360
extracted from the battery when you're discharging it.

303
00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:58,980
So it's either a power source

304
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,459
or an energy storage source.

305
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,279
Lithium ion batteries have come a really long

306
00:12:05,279 --> 00:12:07,539
way since the inception in the late seventies.

307
00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,335
But in all of the research and development

308
00:12:10,335 --> 00:12:13,054
that's happened, in parallel with the material science

309
00:12:13,054 --> 00:12:13,554
people,

310
00:12:13,934 --> 00:12:16,674
in parallel with the electrolyte liquid development

311
00:12:17,294 --> 00:12:17,794
people,

312
00:12:19,054 --> 00:12:21,294
everyone working in that space in the main

313
00:12:21,294 --> 00:12:22,355
will use electrochemical

314
00:12:22,735 --> 00:12:24,690
techniques to be able to test how the

315
00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:25,590
battery works,

316
00:12:26,049 --> 00:12:28,289
to prove how it works, to judge how

317
00:12:28,289 --> 00:12:31,009
much energy it stores, what voltage it works

318
00:12:31,009 --> 00:12:33,909
at, how fast you can charge and discharge

319
00:12:34,049 --> 00:12:37,669
this. These are all analyzed using electrochemical techniques

320
00:12:37,809 --> 00:12:38,309
because

321
00:12:38,654 --> 00:12:40,274
they are electrochemical processes.

322
00:12:40,735 --> 00:12:42,815
And it's becoming more and more familiar to

323
00:12:42,815 --> 00:12:44,654
people. And one of the most interesting things

324
00:12:44,654 --> 00:12:46,894
is to listen to people who drive electric

325
00:12:46,894 --> 00:12:47,394
vehicles.

326
00:12:48,975 --> 00:12:49,475
And

327
00:12:50,574 --> 00:12:51,475
the conversations

328
00:12:52,414 --> 00:12:55,070
with someone who buys an electric vehicle, they're

329
00:12:55,070 --> 00:12:57,549
very aware more than I ever imagined. You

330
00:12:57,549 --> 00:12:59,389
know, for someone who doesn't work in this

331
00:12:59,389 --> 00:13:01,170
space in the lab or in industry,

332
00:13:01,870 --> 00:13:04,610
what type of lithium ion battery chemistries exist.

333
00:13:05,714 --> 00:13:07,794
Drivers of some vehicles are very aware of

334
00:13:07,794 --> 00:13:10,674
lithium iron phosphate, which really threw me for

335
00:13:10,674 --> 00:13:13,074
6. I didn't realize people talked about this

336
00:13:13,074 --> 00:13:14,214
in everyday conversation.

337
00:13:14,754 --> 00:13:17,475
They know about NMC batteries. They talk in

338
00:13:17,475 --> 00:13:21,220
kilowatt hours, in kilowatts for charging rates, just

339
00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:24,039
like people used to do for internal combustion

340
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:26,660
engines, and it's becoming more and more familiar

341
00:13:26,660 --> 00:13:29,460
to people. But there's a lot still happening

342
00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:30,600
in the research side.

343
00:13:31,220 --> 00:13:33,105
Solid state batteries are being developed

344
00:13:33,584 --> 00:13:35,504
really in earnest at the moment, and that's

345
00:13:35,504 --> 00:13:37,764
one of the key developments. These

346
00:13:38,225 --> 00:13:40,245
are slated at least in principle

347
00:13:41,184 --> 00:13:42,804
to be liquid free

348
00:13:43,664 --> 00:13:47,424
with a ceramic type electrolyte between the 2

349
00:13:47,424 --> 00:13:48,485
electrode materials.

350
00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:50,980
They give a high energy density and they're

351
00:13:50,980 --> 00:13:51,720
very lightweight.

352
00:13:52,980 --> 00:13:54,680
You have sodium ion technologies.

353
00:13:55,220 --> 00:13:58,040
They're the sister battery to to lithium ion.

354
00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:02,164
People looking at magnesium ion, zinc air, lithium

355
00:14:02,384 --> 00:14:05,125
sulfur. There's a whole plethora of different

356
00:14:05,504 --> 00:14:06,004
chemistries,

357
00:14:06,384 --> 00:14:08,725
all of which use materials that are probably

358
00:14:08,945 --> 00:14:10,084
more sustainable,

359
00:14:11,184 --> 00:14:12,404
but all of them

360
00:14:13,424 --> 00:14:14,404
need electrochemistry

361
00:14:14,784 --> 00:14:16,200
to understand how they operate,

362
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,340
what goes on inside the system, and electrochemical

363
00:14:19,559 --> 00:14:22,040
methods then to benchmark them and actually work

364
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,299
out how they perform relative to one another

365
00:14:24,519 --> 00:14:26,519
in terms of their applications. So would they

366
00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:27,019
be

367
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,139
a smartwatch type battery chemistry,

368
00:14:30,634 --> 00:14:32,394
or would it be something like a grid

369
00:14:32,394 --> 00:14:35,274
storage buffer type large scale battery, or would

370
00:14:35,274 --> 00:14:37,375
it be a electric vehicle type battery?

371
00:14:37,835 --> 00:14:40,335
Each one has a specific type of internal,

372
00:14:41,115 --> 00:14:42,495
material set requirement,

373
00:14:42,970 --> 00:14:44,110
but they're all electrochemical

374
00:14:45,210 --> 00:14:46,669
energy storage systems

375
00:14:47,289 --> 00:14:49,870
and analyzed using exactly those techniques.

376
00:14:51,049 --> 00:14:53,870
So can can we move, CALM, beyond chips

377
00:14:54,169 --> 00:14:57,309
and energy, which are obviously 2 huge

378
00:14:57,945 --> 00:15:01,625
sectors, industrial sectors. And and maybe can I

379
00:15:01,625 --> 00:15:04,205
ask you to talk about some other technologies

380
00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:06,845
that benefit from advances

381
00:15:07,225 --> 00:15:08,365
in electrochemistry?

382
00:15:10,345 --> 00:15:11,965
I know of I know of some,

383
00:15:12,460 --> 00:15:14,720
outside of the outside of the semiconductor

384
00:15:15,179 --> 00:15:15,679
electrochemistry,

385
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,539
chip manufacturing and batteries, I move into areas

386
00:15:20,539 --> 00:15:23,340
where I'm not so in-depth knowledgeable at all.

387
00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:24,700
But there are some of them that are

388
00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:25,519
really interesting.

389
00:15:26,615 --> 00:15:28,615
One of them, which was a surprise, but

390
00:15:28,615 --> 00:15:30,315
it's it's it's growing

391
00:15:30,695 --> 00:15:32,615
quite a lot, is the use of electric

392
00:15:32,615 --> 00:15:35,815
chemistry in the basic synthesis of organic compounds

393
00:15:35,815 --> 00:15:36,475
in pharmaceuticals.

394
00:15:37,575 --> 00:15:40,054
And so classically, these would have been there's

395
00:15:40,054 --> 00:15:41,195
always a charge

396
00:15:41,809 --> 00:15:45,190
transfer between species when you have chemical reactions

397
00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:45,750
happening.

398
00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:48,610
But what I'm beginning to see is more

399
00:15:48,610 --> 00:15:49,909
more activity in

400
00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:51,990
in using electrochemistry

401
00:15:52,450 --> 00:15:55,029
to control how those reactions happen

402
00:15:55,595 --> 00:15:57,995
and to form organic compounds in a much

403
00:15:57,995 --> 00:16:00,394
faster, much more efficient way in ways that

404
00:16:00,394 --> 00:16:01,054
you need,

405
00:16:01,754 --> 00:16:02,415
you know,

406
00:16:03,115 --> 00:16:05,754
certain types of catalyst to help those process

407
00:16:05,754 --> 00:16:08,955
happen. They can be overcome using electrochemical techniques

408
00:16:08,955 --> 00:16:10,014
because you're bringing

409
00:16:10,409 --> 00:16:13,230
outside power and energy into the system

410
00:16:13,610 --> 00:16:16,409
using current and voltage rather than just using,

411
00:16:16,409 --> 00:16:17,149
for example,

412
00:16:18,329 --> 00:16:20,809
a active or a passive catalyst inside your

413
00:16:20,809 --> 00:16:23,230
chemical reaction. So I find that very interesting,

414
00:16:23,384 --> 00:16:25,544
and I think that will grow in the

415
00:16:25,544 --> 00:16:27,884
use of electrochemistry in in organic

416
00:16:28,424 --> 00:16:29,565
and compound synthesis.

417
00:16:30,745 --> 00:16:32,605
Environmental sensors are another

418
00:16:32,904 --> 00:16:35,065
where we see with colleagues and in in

419
00:16:35,065 --> 00:16:37,804
other projects where electrochemical techniques

420
00:16:38,184 --> 00:16:39,165
are critical

421
00:16:40,129 --> 00:16:42,149
for looking at and developing

422
00:16:42,850 --> 00:16:45,090
new sensors and how they work. So not

423
00:16:45,090 --> 00:16:47,809
just carbon capture, but being able to very

424
00:16:47,809 --> 00:16:48,309
efficiently

425
00:16:49,009 --> 00:16:49,509
measure,

426
00:16:50,769 --> 00:16:53,110
the particulates in the air, nondestructively,

427
00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:54,230
repeatably,

428
00:16:54,684 --> 00:16:57,085
and using very, very cheap but very well

429
00:16:57,085 --> 00:16:59,264
controlled system. These tend to be,

430
00:17:00,125 --> 00:17:00,625
electrochemical

431
00:17:00,925 --> 00:17:03,884
in nature. There's water and food security. So

432
00:17:03,884 --> 00:17:04,705
water treatment

433
00:17:05,325 --> 00:17:06,384
using electrochemical

434
00:17:07,325 --> 00:17:08,384
tags for

435
00:17:09,670 --> 00:17:10,490
food security,

436
00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:11,690
longevity,

437
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:14,789
assessing whether food is safe or not due

438
00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:15,769
to the electrochemical

439
00:17:16,070 --> 00:17:19,029
detection of certain compounds that remitted from food

440
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:20,009
as it ages.

441
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:22,390
And these can all be developed as very,

442
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:22,890
very,

443
00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:24,105
low cost

444
00:17:24,664 --> 00:17:25,565
and tags,

445
00:17:26,345 --> 00:17:28,904
on food product labels, for example. So that's

446
00:17:28,904 --> 00:17:29,724
really interesting.

447
00:17:30,424 --> 00:17:32,845
But then, of course, you have solar and

448
00:17:33,464 --> 00:17:34,765
green fuel production.

449
00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:38,299
So in developing

450
00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:40,619
hydrogen for the hydrogen economy

451
00:17:41,079 --> 00:17:43,640
as fuel for fuel cells and for many

452
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:44,380
more applications,

453
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,579
that is an adaption of

454
00:17:48,595 --> 00:17:51,815
simple electrolysis, so splitting of water into hydrogen

455
00:17:52,035 --> 00:17:52,775
and oxygen.

456
00:17:53,235 --> 00:17:56,115
And that classically is an electrochemical type process.

457
00:17:56,115 --> 00:17:57,715
You need energy, so you can take it

458
00:17:57,715 --> 00:17:58,775
from this on.

459
00:17:59,555 --> 00:18:01,394
You can apply a voltage. You can apply

460
00:18:01,394 --> 00:18:03,235
a current. But when you do the voltage

461
00:18:03,235 --> 00:18:05,650
and current and you tackle this problem electrochemically,

462
00:18:05,869 --> 00:18:07,089
you've lots of control.

463
00:18:08,029 --> 00:18:10,210
The rate at which you form the electrolysis,

464
00:18:10,910 --> 00:18:12,369
you can develop materials

465
00:18:12,750 --> 00:18:15,069
that do it much more efficiently, but you

466
00:18:15,069 --> 00:18:16,529
can quantify it electrochemically.

467
00:18:17,815 --> 00:18:20,295
And there's also the possibility too of of

468
00:18:20,295 --> 00:18:20,795
electrochemical,

469
00:18:21,654 --> 00:18:22,154
fertilizer

470
00:18:22,455 --> 00:18:22,955
synthesis.

471
00:18:23,575 --> 00:18:27,035
So really low cost, high volume production of,

472
00:18:28,455 --> 00:18:29,914
fertilizers for agriculture.

473
00:18:31,174 --> 00:18:33,660
And and these can be done by sequestering

474
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,259
gases and other minerals

475
00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,180
and forming those compounds,

476
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:38,460
from electrochemistry

477
00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:41,420
too. It's really interesting, some of these techniques.

478
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,460
It's interesting in a sense that electrochemistry

479
00:18:44,839 --> 00:18:46,779
is driving new ways of looking

480
00:18:47,184 --> 00:18:50,404
at solutions to, you know, problems like this,

481
00:18:50,785 --> 00:18:52,785
creating new products and allowing a way of

482
00:18:52,785 --> 00:18:55,365
analyzing and and and quantifying them.

483
00:18:55,825 --> 00:18:58,144
But they're kind of in all of their

484
00:18:58,144 --> 00:18:59,849
developments, they're really joined at the hip

485
00:19:00,730 --> 00:19:02,669
with other technologies and industries.

486
00:19:03,049 --> 00:19:04,910
So, you know, the it a surge

487
00:19:06,009 --> 00:19:06,750
in electrochemistry

488
00:19:07,369 --> 00:19:08,269
and its application

489
00:19:09,289 --> 00:19:10,589
will always need,

490
00:19:11,609 --> 00:19:14,654
you know, developments in in the chip manufacturing,

491
00:19:16,075 --> 00:19:18,234
and other industries that they're eventually going to

492
00:19:18,234 --> 00:19:19,134
be, you know,

493
00:19:19,674 --> 00:19:21,855
products from these technologies would need.

494
00:19:22,234 --> 00:19:24,315
I see. And and I was hoping now

495
00:19:24,315 --> 00:19:26,154
that we could talk a bit about your

496
00:19:26,154 --> 00:19:27,055
own research.

497
00:19:28,309 --> 00:19:30,890
You have a particular interest in developing

498
00:19:31,269 --> 00:19:32,490
analytical techniques

499
00:19:33,349 --> 00:19:35,930
for the non destructive testing

500
00:19:36,630 --> 00:19:37,369
of batteries

501
00:19:37,829 --> 00:19:39,130
and other electrochemical

502
00:19:39,589 --> 00:19:40,089
systems.

503
00:19:40,785 --> 00:19:43,125
Why is non destructive testing

504
00:19:43,825 --> 00:19:44,325
necessary?

505
00:19:45,184 --> 00:19:47,445
And and what what techniques are you developing?

506
00:19:48,785 --> 00:19:51,025
We we look at a very at a

507
00:19:51,025 --> 00:19:53,285
small part of the of the the bigger

508
00:19:54,225 --> 00:19:55,365
need, I guess.

509
00:19:55,859 --> 00:19:57,799
And part of it is to look at

510
00:19:57,940 --> 00:20:01,140
what happens inside a battery material or indeed

511
00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:01,960
any material.

512
00:20:02,339 --> 00:20:03,859
It doesn't have to be a battery one,

513
00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:05,940
but we look at these because they're they

514
00:20:05,940 --> 00:20:06,440
change

515
00:20:07,779 --> 00:20:08,279
under,

516
00:20:08,740 --> 00:20:09,240
use.

517
00:20:09,875 --> 00:20:12,055
But the basis was to develop a nondestructive

518
00:20:12,434 --> 00:20:15,075
method. So whether you use optics, whether you

519
00:20:15,075 --> 00:20:16,295
use ultrasonics,

520
00:20:16,674 --> 00:20:18,535
or whether you use x rays,

521
00:20:19,075 --> 00:20:19,975
all the different

522
00:20:21,475 --> 00:20:21,975
energies

523
00:20:22,289 --> 00:20:24,230
up across the electromagnetic spectrum,

524
00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:25,910
are typically

525
00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:28,130
are are are being investigated now to see

526
00:20:28,130 --> 00:20:29,430
what happens to these materials

527
00:20:29,890 --> 00:20:31,269
when they when they operate.

528
00:20:31,970 --> 00:20:34,369
And one of the needs is to pin

529
00:20:34,369 --> 00:20:34,869
down

530
00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:36,150
what

531
00:20:37,015 --> 00:20:37,755
really happens

532
00:20:38,295 --> 00:20:40,615
to lithium ion batteries, to give one example,

533
00:20:40,615 --> 00:20:41,755
during their operation.

534
00:20:42,375 --> 00:20:44,134
So if we were to take an electric

535
00:20:44,134 --> 00:20:47,095
vehicle application, for example, so the battery structure

536
00:20:47,095 --> 00:20:48,875
is very well defined.

537
00:20:49,255 --> 00:20:50,694
They know what materials are in it. They

538
00:20:50,694 --> 00:20:52,740
know how to put it together, and it's

539
00:20:52,740 --> 00:20:55,779
developed in a particular type of form factor,

540
00:20:55,779 --> 00:20:57,640
often like a cylinder type battery.

541
00:20:57,940 --> 00:20:59,779
And 100 of these are placed within a

542
00:20:59,779 --> 00:21:01,220
pack and put on the bottom of a

543
00:21:01,380 --> 00:21:02,519
of electric vehicle.

544
00:21:03,299 --> 00:21:03,799
Now

545
00:21:04,195 --> 00:21:06,355
when you operate one of these in Malaysia

546
00:21:06,355 --> 00:21:08,434
and you operate one of these in Northern

547
00:21:08,434 --> 00:21:08,934
Canada,

548
00:21:09,555 --> 00:21:12,295
different requirements happen for the same battery chemistry.

549
00:21:12,434 --> 00:21:15,715
Someone is constantly charging and discharging their cells

550
00:21:15,715 --> 00:21:18,160
in extreme cold, The other in a high

551
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,859
humidity warmer environment.

552
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,799
And people would like to know exactly, you

553
00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:25,539
know, what causes degradation long term.

554
00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,980
Is it the voltage? Is it the supercharging?

555
00:21:29,519 --> 00:21:30,580
Is it the temperature?

556
00:21:31,125 --> 00:21:33,945
Are there even materials used in the manufacture

557
00:21:34,005 --> 00:21:36,664
of batteries that are over the long term

558
00:21:37,684 --> 00:21:38,904
causing some degradation?

559
00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:41,125
And one of the ways to look at

560
00:21:41,125 --> 00:21:42,964
this is to do bring that system into

561
00:21:42,964 --> 00:21:44,345
the lab and do it nondestructively

562
00:21:45,179 --> 00:21:47,359
because you'll never find the solution by

563
00:21:47,819 --> 00:21:50,159
opening up the battery and looking at it

564
00:21:50,379 --> 00:21:50,879
afterwards.

565
00:21:51,179 --> 00:21:52,879
They're such a reactive system

566
00:21:53,179 --> 00:21:55,039
that as soon as you pull them apart,

567
00:21:55,099 --> 00:21:56,000
they're no longer

568
00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:57,599
working together.

569
00:21:58,220 --> 00:21:59,599
They're extremely reactive.

570
00:22:00,205 --> 00:22:02,865
And you can get some information from

571
00:22:03,164 --> 00:22:04,305
analyzing the materials,

572
00:22:05,085 --> 00:22:05,825
the composition,

573
00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:08,785
what they were like afterwards compared to before,

574
00:22:09,005 --> 00:22:10,845
but you get a lot more information by

575
00:22:10,845 --> 00:22:13,105
watching what actually happens to the material,

576
00:22:13,589 --> 00:22:16,710
the chemistry, the interfaces, and everything. When you

577
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:17,210
can

578
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:19,589
get that information at the same time, you're

579
00:22:19,589 --> 00:22:22,470
watching the electrochemical charging and discharging behavior, and

580
00:22:22,470 --> 00:22:24,549
you can link one to the other during

581
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:25,289
their operation.

582
00:22:25,855 --> 00:22:27,774
And so this is becoming very interesting. A

583
00:22:27,774 --> 00:22:28,914
lot of, developments

584
00:22:29,214 --> 00:22:31,234
are in the optic space.

585
00:22:32,174 --> 00:22:34,595
So between photonic crystals to,

586
00:22:35,534 --> 00:22:37,634
fiber optics where people are using,

587
00:22:38,750 --> 00:22:42,190
fiber optics inbuilt into the battery cell. So

588
00:22:42,190 --> 00:22:44,130
it monitors the state of charge,

589
00:22:44,589 --> 00:22:46,210
the overall state of health,

590
00:22:46,750 --> 00:22:49,329
changes to the composition of the material,

591
00:22:50,044 --> 00:22:50,704
the electrolytes,

592
00:22:51,005 --> 00:22:53,265
the liquids inside, and doing that nondestructively

593
00:22:53,644 --> 00:22:54,144
optically

594
00:22:54,684 --> 00:22:56,144
at any time that they want.

595
00:22:57,484 --> 00:23:00,605
There's techniques like CT scanning that you would

596
00:23:00,605 --> 00:23:02,220
use in hospitals, for example.

597
00:23:03,179 --> 00:23:05,339
So a CT scan that people would use

598
00:23:05,339 --> 00:23:07,200
for biological system to analyze

599
00:23:07,819 --> 00:23:08,640
or treat,

600
00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:12,859
wounds or growths or whatever medical condition. Like,

601
00:23:12,859 --> 00:23:14,619
you can treat a battery as as that

602
00:23:14,619 --> 00:23:15,679
too. Look at its

603
00:23:16,059 --> 00:23:16,960
state of health.

604
00:23:17,644 --> 00:23:18,144
And

605
00:23:18,524 --> 00:23:21,565
people are using x-ray and CT systems to

606
00:23:21,565 --> 00:23:23,105
look at the material,

607
00:23:23,484 --> 00:23:24,224
the interfaces,

608
00:23:24,764 --> 00:23:27,565
and again, to just get an assessment of

609
00:23:27,565 --> 00:23:29,105
what's happening to the material

610
00:23:29,804 --> 00:23:31,750
at different length scales. So you have high

611
00:23:31,750 --> 00:23:34,170
energy systems looking at very small features,

612
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:36,710
and you have lower energy systems looking at

613
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:39,029
the entire battery cell to see, does it

614
00:23:39,029 --> 00:23:40,089
maintain its structure?

615
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:42,390
Everything from sound waves to X rays are

616
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:44,950
being used now for for what they call

617
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:46,089
operando measurements.

618
00:23:46,585 --> 00:23:48,445
Just taking data

619
00:23:48,745 --> 00:23:50,985
on a system that's behaving as it would

620
00:23:50,985 --> 00:23:52,525
in the wild in a sense.

621
00:23:53,225 --> 00:23:56,045
I see. And you're you're mentioning those

622
00:23:57,065 --> 00:23:57,565
myriad

623
00:23:57,865 --> 00:23:58,924
different techniques,

624
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,080
brings me on to my next question very,

625
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:02,740
very nicely.

626
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,019
So modern science is a collaborative

627
00:24:06,559 --> 00:24:07,059
endeavor.

628
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,700
Can you talk about how electrochemists

629
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:11,940
are working with physicists,

630
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:13,460
material scientists,

631
00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:15,095
biologists, and

632
00:24:15,634 --> 00:24:16,454
and other

633
00:24:17,075 --> 00:24:19,095
researchers to advance knowledge?

634
00:24:20,595 --> 00:24:21,954
Well, if you if you were to look

635
00:24:21,954 --> 00:24:23,335
at if you were to look at,

636
00:24:24,035 --> 00:24:24,535
any,

637
00:24:25,795 --> 00:24:26,454
I guess,

638
00:24:26,755 --> 00:24:27,255
modern

639
00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:31,089
technological device from a from anything from electric

640
00:24:31,089 --> 00:24:32,490
vehicle to a phone. A phone will be

641
00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:34,309
a good example, so I'll use this one.

642
00:24:35,809 --> 00:24:37,429
Between the materials,

643
00:24:39,169 --> 00:24:41,569
even organic polymer materials and everything that you

644
00:24:41,569 --> 00:24:43,349
could use in an OLED or an AMOLED

645
00:24:43,625 --> 00:24:46,105
screen for the latest, you know, phones and

646
00:24:46,105 --> 00:24:46,605
smartwatches

647
00:24:47,865 --> 00:24:49,965
through to the chips that are being developed

648
00:24:50,025 --> 00:24:50,525
specifically

649
00:24:50,825 --> 00:24:51,325
for

650
00:24:51,705 --> 00:24:54,605
the use application in handheld device like that.

651
00:24:54,664 --> 00:24:56,984
The battery developments to give you high energy

652
00:24:56,984 --> 00:24:59,005
for a long time at extremely lightweight

653
00:24:59,609 --> 00:25:01,450
and form factors that allow you to be

654
00:25:01,450 --> 00:25:03,309
creative with the shape of the phone.

655
00:25:04,970 --> 00:25:07,230
The materials on the outside, the interconnectivity,

656
00:25:07,849 --> 00:25:10,890
the software, the low power Bluetooth, all the

657
00:25:10,890 --> 00:25:13,630
things that run-in any typical device needs

658
00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:16,634
now more than it ever did before. Everyone

659
00:25:17,015 --> 00:25:17,515
from,

660
00:25:18,615 --> 00:25:21,355
semiconductor physicists looking at display materials.

661
00:25:22,375 --> 00:25:25,035
You have an semiconductor chip manufacturing

662
00:25:25,894 --> 00:25:29,115
in the processing of this, the software development,

663
00:25:29,174 --> 00:25:30,394
the material scientists

664
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,200
in everything from the outer casing to the

665
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:33,700
screen,

666
00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:36,259
to the components and the chips, and especially

667
00:25:36,319 --> 00:25:38,960
too in the batteries because that's a critical

668
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:40,660
component now for making everything

669
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:42,500
mobile

670
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:43,779
and wireless.

671
00:25:45,444 --> 00:25:45,944
And

672
00:25:46,244 --> 00:25:48,265
even with biologists too, so bioelectrochemical

673
00:25:48,804 --> 00:25:49,304
systems,

674
00:25:49,845 --> 00:25:50,984
especially sensors.

675
00:25:51,605 --> 00:25:53,444
That's growing a lot now where you want

676
00:25:53,444 --> 00:25:54,105
to have,

677
00:25:55,204 --> 00:25:58,085
on skin, sometimes in vitro systems that have

678
00:25:58,085 --> 00:25:59,304
their own power sources.

679
00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:00,799
They can measure,

680
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:02,000
biological

681
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:06,940
activity in real time, whether it's electrochemically or

682
00:26:06,940 --> 00:26:08,960
whether it's computationally through semiconductors.

683
00:26:09,900 --> 00:26:11,740
These are being developed, but it's it's so

684
00:26:11,740 --> 00:26:14,299
collaborative now that you can you, in the

685
00:26:14,299 --> 00:26:15,200
main, find

686
00:26:15,875 --> 00:26:19,075
electrochemists, physicists, material sciences, biologists, and more all

687
00:26:19,075 --> 00:26:21,474
working on elements of a single device. And

688
00:26:21,474 --> 00:26:23,335
this is becoming more and more common

689
00:26:23,954 --> 00:26:26,934
as we're beginning to see mobility from

690
00:26:27,394 --> 00:26:29,335
battery and energy storage technologies

691
00:26:30,034 --> 00:26:30,990
mixing with

692
00:26:31,470 --> 00:26:32,210
the semiconductor

693
00:26:32,509 --> 00:26:33,009
industry

694
00:26:33,630 --> 00:26:35,950
for the processing and allowing the device to

695
00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:37,950
actually do what it's supposed to do. And

696
00:26:37,950 --> 00:26:40,130
and, Colm, we've talked a lot about applications,

697
00:26:40,509 --> 00:26:43,069
I suppose, but I wanted to also ask

698
00:26:43,069 --> 00:26:43,809
you about

699
00:26:44,515 --> 00:26:45,015
fundamental

700
00:26:45,394 --> 00:26:46,775
research in electrochemistry.

701
00:26:47,234 --> 00:26:49,954
What are some of the hot topics that

702
00:26:49,954 --> 00:26:50,855
you and your

703
00:26:51,154 --> 00:26:52,115
colleagues are,

704
00:26:52,595 --> 00:26:54,535
are excited about at the moment,

705
00:26:55,315 --> 00:26:57,174
in terms of fundamental work?

706
00:26:58,750 --> 00:27:00,909
Well, in in in some of that I'm

707
00:27:00,909 --> 00:27:03,089
I'm that I'm aware of,

708
00:27:03,630 --> 00:27:05,470
but not working in, but I've I've I've

709
00:27:05,470 --> 00:27:08,369
read some really interesting studies on where

710
00:27:10,029 --> 00:27:10,529
electrochemistry

711
00:27:10,909 --> 00:27:12,434
to some degree is being used.

712
00:27:14,275 --> 00:27:16,835
The most obvious one are in next generation

713
00:27:16,835 --> 00:27:19,095
batteries and the motivation for doing this,

714
00:27:20,195 --> 00:27:22,115
like beyond lithium ion, as we move to

715
00:27:22,115 --> 00:27:24,275
solid state solving the problems of the, of

716
00:27:24,275 --> 00:27:25,470
the solid state batteries.

717
00:27:25,950 --> 00:27:27,409
So getting them to be

718
00:27:27,950 --> 00:27:30,750
industrially viable so you can actually manufacture. There's

719
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:31,250
lots

720
00:27:31,789 --> 00:27:34,190
of interest in developing the material science, but

721
00:27:34,190 --> 00:27:35,169
also understanding

722
00:27:35,710 --> 00:27:37,089
the fundamental electrochemistry

723
00:27:37,470 --> 00:27:39,950
that happens in a solid material compared to

724
00:27:39,950 --> 00:27:40,964
a liquid material

725
00:27:41,444 --> 00:27:43,865
and how you can get those batteries to

726
00:27:43,924 --> 00:27:44,585
to work.

727
00:27:45,605 --> 00:27:48,484
Sodium ion systems are also electrochemically very interesting.

728
00:27:48,484 --> 00:27:48,984
Started

729
00:27:49,444 --> 00:27:50,984
actually decades ago too,

730
00:27:52,085 --> 00:27:53,924
just a few years after the lithium ion

731
00:27:53,924 --> 00:27:54,240
system.

732
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,279
And it too has its own teething problems

733
00:27:57,279 --> 00:27:59,599
that need to be solved both from material

734
00:27:59,599 --> 00:28:02,319
science, but also from the electrochemical understanding of

735
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:04,559
why one material behaves in one way with

736
00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:05,059
sodium,

737
00:28:05,679 --> 00:28:08,480
but so differently than the same material behaves

738
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,220
with lithium.

739
00:28:10,164 --> 00:28:12,404
And why exactly that is, and how you

740
00:28:12,404 --> 00:28:14,105
exploit it and improve it.

741
00:28:14,964 --> 00:28:16,644
And beyond that, there are,

742
00:28:17,125 --> 00:28:19,765
redox flow batteries or another form of batteries

743
00:28:19,765 --> 00:28:20,585
which are

744
00:28:21,125 --> 00:28:23,045
not as well known, I guess, among the

745
00:28:23,045 --> 00:28:23,545
public,

746
00:28:24,404 --> 00:28:27,639
but they are a very, very large scale

747
00:28:27,639 --> 00:28:29,019
energy storage system.

748
00:28:29,639 --> 00:28:31,480
So to give you an example here, this

749
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,740
is an electrochemical process also,

750
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:35,500
but it uses reduction

751
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,480
and oxidation processes in 2 huge vats of

752
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:40,835
liquid. So you can

753
00:28:41,294 --> 00:28:43,694
imagine a water storage facility where you have

754
00:28:43,694 --> 00:28:45,954
100 and 100 of 1000 of liters.

755
00:28:46,414 --> 00:28:48,654
And these types of batteries would store the

756
00:28:48,654 --> 00:28:52,034
energy for an island community, for example.

757
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:54,679
And they could be transported on ships, and

758
00:28:54,679 --> 00:28:56,679
the electrolyte is just flushed out of 1

759
00:28:56,679 --> 00:28:58,700
tank, and a fresh one is replaced.

760
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,799
And an entire Ireland or an island culture

761
00:29:01,799 --> 00:29:05,879
could exist on completely green electrochemical battery storage

762
00:29:05,879 --> 00:29:08,139
technology that you just need to replace liquids.

763
00:29:08,279 --> 00:29:09,555
It's very, very efficient.

764
00:29:10,174 --> 00:29:13,394
C o two mediation, I think fertilizer production

765
00:29:14,654 --> 00:29:17,634
and controlling contaminants in the atmosphere. But fertilizer

766
00:29:17,775 --> 00:29:18,275
production

767
00:29:19,615 --> 00:29:20,115
is

768
00:29:20,654 --> 00:29:24,115
necessary for agriculture, but it's so important for

769
00:29:24,450 --> 00:29:25,589
our entire existence.

770
00:29:26,690 --> 00:29:28,950
Food production, the quality of soils,

771
00:29:29,569 --> 00:29:31,109
measuring these, developing

772
00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:35,750
very green sustainable fertilizer production from electrochemical processes

773
00:29:35,890 --> 00:29:37,589
rather than pure chemical processes.

774
00:29:38,855 --> 00:29:41,414
That's, I think, not just very interesting from

775
00:29:41,414 --> 00:29:42,554
a fundamental electrochemical

776
00:29:42,855 --> 00:29:44,634
point of view, but it's extremely important.

777
00:29:46,375 --> 00:29:47,514
But some of the more,

778
00:29:48,855 --> 00:29:52,619
esoteric or at least early stage fundamental blue

779
00:29:52,619 --> 00:29:53,119
sky,

780
00:29:54,299 --> 00:29:55,279
work in electrochemistry,

781
00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:59,440
there's interfaces between liquids where you can grow

782
00:29:59,740 --> 00:30:03,259
biological species. You can grow photoactive species at

783
00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:06,634
the interface between 2 liquids completely from electrochemical

784
00:30:06,855 --> 00:30:07,355
needs.

785
00:30:08,055 --> 00:30:09,515
And then you have bioelectrochemistry

786
00:30:10,055 --> 00:30:12,315
interactions, which I find very interesting,

787
00:30:13,095 --> 00:30:15,355
especially when you mix it with automation

788
00:30:16,055 --> 00:30:16,875
and discovery.

789
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,140
So there are,

790
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,140
people working in,

791
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,539
chemical synthesis for using artificial intelligence

792
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,299
and robots

793
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,660
to do

794
00:30:28,039 --> 00:30:30,279
what it would take 100 and 100 of

795
00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:30,734
chemists

796
00:30:31,214 --> 00:30:33,535
over thousands of hours to do in just

797
00:30:33,535 --> 00:30:36,015
a fraction of the time. So they're analyzing

798
00:30:36,015 --> 00:30:36,674
the literature,

799
00:30:38,255 --> 00:30:41,295
developing a synthetic process, and being able to

800
00:30:41,295 --> 00:30:41,795
run

801
00:30:42,174 --> 00:30:44,835
hundreds of parallel experiments all automatically

802
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,179
reproducing certain compounds and discovering

803
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,539
completely new ones without any human interaction.

804
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,319
This will eventually transition, I believe, to an

805
00:30:56,319 --> 00:30:57,059
an electrochemical

806
00:30:57,599 --> 00:30:59,919
synthesis and discovery where you now not just

807
00:30:59,919 --> 00:31:00,900
mixing chemicals,

808
00:31:01,544 --> 00:31:04,744
but the automated AI controlled robotic systems will

809
00:31:04,744 --> 00:31:07,224
start to control the voltage and the current

810
00:31:07,224 --> 00:31:08,684
just to give you those extra,

811
00:31:09,625 --> 00:31:11,085
control variables for,

812
00:31:11,865 --> 00:31:12,365
synthesis.

813
00:31:14,105 --> 00:31:17,460
So that there there's some very interesting things

814
00:31:17,460 --> 00:31:19,240
happening in in electrochemistry

815
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:21,080
outside of the fundamentals

816
00:31:21,779 --> 00:31:23,320
that are, I guess,

817
00:31:24,339 --> 00:31:27,059
the important underpinning to, you know, understanding for

818
00:31:27,059 --> 00:31:28,839
the technologies that we're gonna develop.

819
00:31:29,375 --> 00:31:31,055
I see. And so it sounds to me

820
00:31:31,055 --> 00:31:32,674
like you're very positive

821
00:31:33,455 --> 00:31:34,515
about the future

822
00:31:34,815 --> 00:31:36,035
of electrochemistry.

823
00:31:36,575 --> 00:31:38,755
I'm guessing that you would encourage

824
00:31:39,535 --> 00:31:40,575
students to,

825
00:31:41,215 --> 00:31:42,975
to sign up and do a degree in

826
00:31:42,975 --> 00:31:44,275
chemistry and pursue

827
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:46,079
a career in electrochemistry?

828
00:31:46,940 --> 00:31:47,919
Lots of opportunities?

829
00:31:48,779 --> 00:31:51,019
There are. And what I really wish is

830
00:31:51,019 --> 00:31:53,599
that, you know, as as someone who uses

831
00:31:53,659 --> 00:31:54,159
electrochemistry,

832
00:31:56,140 --> 00:31:58,319
on a daily basis, even for

833
00:31:58,815 --> 00:32:01,394
even for studies that are not classically electrochemical.

834
00:32:02,414 --> 00:32:04,255
You know, I mean, for batteries, but for

835
00:32:04,255 --> 00:32:04,755
semiconductor

836
00:32:05,454 --> 00:32:07,794
material. The electric it it's so fundamentally

837
00:32:08,095 --> 00:32:08,595
useful.

838
00:32:09,375 --> 00:32:12,335
But I think objectively important now given that

839
00:32:12,335 --> 00:32:12,990
so much

840
00:32:13,549 --> 00:32:16,190
between our our devices and wireless devices, but

841
00:32:16,190 --> 00:32:18,929
also from an environmental perspective and the transition

842
00:32:18,990 --> 00:32:21,329
to a greener, like, electric future.

843
00:32:22,109 --> 00:32:22,609
Electrochemistry

844
00:32:23,069 --> 00:32:25,005
is not just a sub

845
00:32:25,565 --> 00:32:28,684
set of a chemical degree. It's becoming more

846
00:32:28,684 --> 00:32:29,585
and more important.

847
00:32:30,525 --> 00:32:31,025
And

848
00:32:31,724 --> 00:32:34,684
short answer is yes. I definitely would with

849
00:32:34,684 --> 00:32:36,865
the huge caveat is that

850
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:40,140
we still, in a lot of chemistry degrees,

851
00:32:40,140 --> 00:32:41,119
do not have

852
00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:44,000
a strong enough emphasis on

853
00:32:44,299 --> 00:32:45,119
the electrochemical

854
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:46,720
part of those degrees.

855
00:32:47,820 --> 00:32:50,240
So the I think there's room for for

856
00:32:51,095 --> 00:32:53,115
looking at classical chemistry

857
00:32:53,815 --> 00:32:55,734
degrees, looking at the area in which the

858
00:32:55,734 --> 00:32:58,715
universities are based, seeing what industries are there,

859
00:32:59,174 --> 00:33:02,055
and, you know, comparing to physics for which

860
00:33:02,055 --> 00:33:03,195
for decades has

861
00:33:03,849 --> 00:33:06,409
has had degrees which are not just called

862
00:33:06,409 --> 00:33:06,909
physics.

863
00:33:07,289 --> 00:33:09,690
You have applied physics degrees, you have industrial

864
00:33:09,690 --> 00:33:11,230
physics degrees, you have

865
00:33:11,769 --> 00:33:14,190
an astronomy and astrophysics purely

866
00:33:14,569 --> 00:33:17,069
of of degrees in in some universities.

867
00:33:17,615 --> 00:33:18,515
And I think, you know,

868
00:33:19,215 --> 00:33:21,295
in in the US, you you you you

869
00:33:21,455 --> 00:33:24,174
it's rarer to find a pure chemistry course

870
00:33:24,174 --> 00:33:26,515
that doesn't have chemical engineering

871
00:33:27,134 --> 00:33:27,634
or

872
00:33:28,095 --> 00:33:28,595
biochemistry

873
00:33:29,055 --> 00:33:31,295
in build with this. And I think, especially

874
00:33:31,295 --> 00:33:31,955
in Europe,

875
00:33:32,460 --> 00:33:33,359
there is a chance

876
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:34,799
to broaden,

877
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:38,140
the way we look at chemistry degrees and

878
00:33:38,140 --> 00:33:39,919
and start to bring electrochemistry

879
00:33:40,220 --> 00:33:43,259
as a core topic in undergraduate degrees where

880
00:33:43,259 --> 00:33:44,640
it's very rarely done

881
00:33:45,224 --> 00:33:46,664
with the level that I think it will

882
00:33:46,664 --> 00:33:47,805
need for the future.

883
00:33:48,904 --> 00:33:51,144
Well, that's great, Colin. Thanks so much for,

884
00:33:51,384 --> 00:33:54,265
for coming on the podcast and talking about,

885
00:33:55,065 --> 00:33:56,365
all things electrochemistry.

886
00:33:57,065 --> 00:33:57,384
And,

887
00:33:57,865 --> 00:33:59,244
we we wish you well

888
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:01,580
your tenure at the Electrochemical

889
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:04,599
Society as well. Thank you very much, Hamish.

890
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:06,119
It was really interesting to chat to you

891
00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:06,779
about this.

892
00:34:14,405 --> 00:34:16,244
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

893
00:34:16,244 --> 00:34:19,284
for this week's podcast, which is supported by

894
00:34:19,284 --> 00:34:20,505
American Elements.

895
00:34:21,204 --> 00:34:22,744
Thanks to Colm O'Dwyer

896
00:34:23,125 --> 00:34:25,144
for his insights into electrochemistry,

897
00:34:26,164 --> 00:34:27,625
and thanks to our producer,

898
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:28,940
Fred Iles.

899
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:31,420
We'll be back again next week.