Keshawn Williams Mission : Breaking Stereotypes in Mental Health

Welcome to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide?
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Tune in, be inspired, and join us in transforming the
world one story at a time. Hi, I'm Tony Mantur.
Welcome to Why Not Me? Embracing Autism and Mental Health Worldwide.
Joining us today is Keishawn Williams. He's a dedicated and
inspiring advocate from mental health and trauma informed care. As
a graduate student pursuing a master's in social work with
a focus on individual and family clinical practice, he is
on a mission to become a trauma focused psychotherapist. His
deep interest in the intersection of serious mental illness, trauma,
and substance use disorder drives his commitment to providing therapeutic support.
Drawing from his undergraduate experience in community corrections, he brings
a unique perspective on the complex challenges faced by individuals
in the criminal justice system. He will share his passion
for creating safe healing spaces and advancing mental health care
for all. So before we dive into our episode, we'll
be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word
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Thanks for coming on, no problem, Thank you for thank
you for having me.
Oh it's my pleasure. Before we start, why don't you
give us a little information about yourself and what you're
doing now?
Sure, so, I guess I'll give a little bit of
a background. So like, I've always had a strong desire
to help those who were overlooked or disregarded by society.
I remember one time in high school there was a
classmate that had some type of condition. I'm not sure
whether it was like a brain injury or autoimmune disease,
but she would like give sass and act out and
everybody would kind of let her get away with it.
So I remember a time in English class during freshman
year where we were doing a game or of some
sort and she was giving SaaS. I gave it right back,
and her aid pulled me aside and thanked me like
I thought I was gonna get in trouble, but for
just treating her like a regular human being, like for
just simply engaging with her like another human being. And
we became good friends after that. So I guess that's
just to give a little bit of a background.
That's a great storm. Now, did you stay in contact
with they're moving forward?
I have kept in contact.
We did lose contact towards the end of undergrad I
think I'm not sure what happened there, but I know
I deleted Facebook, so we kind of.
Just lost a little bit of contact there. I believe
she's still doing well.
Sure, that's great. Now tell us more. What led you
to continue what you're doing now?
Sure, So let's see.
I began my undergraduate studies as a pre veterinary major,
but that changed when I had a chemistry teacher who
had a distracting sentence filler, which made me switch my
major to avoid failing, and due to my mom being
a probation officer, I was inspired to study criminal justice
with a focus on community corrections.
So that led to an internship with.
The New Jersey State Parole Board, which is where I
first interacted with people at different cognitive levels and mental illnesses,
and also with various criminal tales or just ranging from
like assault to sex offenses. I also helped recently released
individuals prepare for their ged and took part in an
inside outside prison exchange program where.
I would visit the jail every other.
Week to attend class alongside incarcerated individuals. Now, those experiences
made me want to go to law school but to
become like a criminal family attorney. But due to like
some personal family issues, my plans for law school changed,
so instead I became an assistant director of therapeutic recreation
at a nursing home where I interacted with elderly or
geriatric individuals facing various cognitive issues and mental illnesses like dementia, bipolar, schizophrenia.
And now in the midst of that, due to like
a divine intervention, I was led to a rescue mission
which helped me get my life back on track and
discover my true purpose, which I'm happy that they kind
of invested alongside me, which is where I'm now in
a clinical MSW program where I've been able to recognize
gaps and services there's like a vast amount of other
encounters and being able to kind of reflect on my
past experiences and every job that I've had, which kind
of came together and strengthened and emphasized by interest in
helping people with serious mental illness. Trauma is substance use disorders.
So I have this desire to not only serve these individuals,
but also advocate for better services, improve treatment outcomes, and
breaking the unfortunate negative stereotypes and stigmas that still exist.
Yes, that's so very true. There's just so much out there,
So how did you continue?
So with everything that came together, it's like I kind
of know that this is like a god given purpose
because I originally thought it was random, but I've recently
learned that I've had family members on both sides that
battled with serious mental illness and brain injuries. So like,
this goal to become a clinical social worker and a
clinical and forensic psychologist, and like providing a true holistic
approach to.
Care and desire for research and advocacy shows that.
This has been a calling from the because if it
was up to me, I would have been a veterinarian,
or a probation officer or a lawyer.
So are you working for a company now? If you are,
can you explain how that's helping you get to where
your ultimate goals are.
So I currently interned for two places as I'm wrapping
up my first year of microhn oplomas W program. So
I can't necessarily give the names of the organizations due
to like liability issues.
Sure, that's understandable.
One program is the Rescue Mission that I mentioned a
little bit earlier, which is like an emergency shelter and
a life changing substance abuse program for men.
And then the other is a.
Program within a community mental health center where I'm under
the supervision of a woman who has an extensive history
and working with individuals in the criminal justice system.
Okay, that's great. Now you say you're in school for MSW.
Can you explain what that is for all the listeners
that might not understand all they act.
This is of course, I know it was hard for
me at the beginning too. So MSW stands for Masters
in Social Work.
Okay, So you can.
Either do with the Masters of Social Work.
There's a macro track, there's a mezzo track, and then
there's also a micro or clinical track. So you could
either focus on policy or you could focus on let's say,
being like a program director or clinical which would be
sitting the one on one with individuals who have serious
mental illness, or individuals facing domestic violence, or family and children,
things of that nature.
Okay, so what are your goals? You just brought up
two or three different scenarios, So which one do you
see yourself fitting into?
So me, I have always been the individual that I
hate to be restricted by, like confines of one avenue.
So that's kind of where the goal of, like finishing
the clinical social work, and then I'm also taking prerequisites
in psychology courses to meet the standards for a doctoral
program to become a clinical and forensic psychologist too.
So being able to.
Sit with individuals who have serious or persistent mental illness, trauma,
or substance use disorder and the avenues in which they
all intersect, so like addiction treatment facilities in the criminal
justice system in whether it's jails or prisons, and.
Even shelters in that nature.
So being able to do research or improve like the
treatment outcomes, and kind of just provide care within the
whole atmosphere, whether that be case management, long term work
with individuals in psychotherapy, or just educating different programs in
how to provide the care within their scope of care,
because I know a lot of people think, oh, it's
serious mental illness, we can't handle medication or medication adherents,
or that's somebody else's problem. But once you have that
education and that knowledge and you don't have that stigma
towards it, you can realize that there's a lot more
that your program can do.
Okay, that makes sense. Now, is this the first year
that you're doing this going to school?
This is my first year with this focus.
Yes, So how many more years do you have to
get where you want to be? What degree are you
shooting for now?
So I'm currently going for my master's. I have one
out of two years I'm finishing up right now.
Okay, So then.
Another year to sit for the clinical well the master's
Social Work Licensure, which gives you a provisional license to
sit with individuals in therapy, and then two years of
three thousand hours of supervision and sitting with individuals to
sit for clinical licensure as an LCSW, so a licensed
clinical social worker. And then at that time I intend
to apply for sids, which are doctorates in psychology programs.
Okay, so this is kind of like continuing education for
the rest of your life. Okay, so what's your goal?
I mean, you've got three or four more years of
schooling just to get close to where you want to be.
So where do you see yourself in three to five years?
What's your goals for that range of time?
I mean, Lord Willing, I would say the ultimate goal
is to finish the schooling, get all the supervisory hours
out of the way, and kind of establish a whether
it's private practice or just an organization or be contracted
with programs to really provide this full comprehensive care.
Because one of the.
Issues or gaps and services that I see is kind
of what we were talking about a little bit earlier
with the passing of the buck. So somebody says, you know,
this person here is has schizophrenia and they also have
a substance use disorder, but because of the schizophrenia or
because of the bipolar disorder, we can't really provide that care,
or we can't take this medication. I kind of want
to come in there and say, hey, you can take
depending on the medication or depending on the let's say
the amount of the medication, let's five milligrams, is completely
different from five hundred milligrams, and if it's a non sedative,
you're not going to see these. I think a lot
of people are scared of acute psychosis or these manic episodes.
And if somebody's managing this stuff and you're able to
sit there or even collaborate across different spectrums, we can
provide that individual to care that they need so they're
not left to wander the streets or they're not left
to wind up in the criminal justice system if they've
already burned the bridges with their family and can't return there.
Okay, so you brought up that one girl that you
treated normal. So that is one example that led you
to another path, which led you to what you're doing. Now,
are there other instances that happened to come in front
of you, that just happened to be there that kind
of confirmed and opened the door to Yeah, this is
what I'm going to do.
One hundred first sent I think one funny thing is
there's I remember being at work one time and this
coworker is sitting there like he comes to me and
he's like, you're You're the guy that puts the food
out on the back porch, and you're the reason all
the stray cats in the town are on your back
porch there, and it's like, too, I don't know if
that was intended to be like an insult or like
kind of like a little dig, But sitting back and
reflecting on it, it's like, Okay, why not feed the
stray cats? Why not just you know, kick them away
and provide it? Like that's a strength more than it
is a.
Nice Absolutely, helping people is never a weakness.
And if you have the right perspective, you know, And
I think that's another thing that kind of highlighted it
because it's like, here are people who.
Let's say, are scared.
To interact with individuals or have this preconceived notion, and
it's like, why not be curious. Why not sit down
with the individual who's there for shelter or the person
who's in the middle of the park that you kind
of look down upon.
If you get to know their story, they're literally just
another human being.
Absolutely, and that's a tremendously good way to look at it,
so that you can help others that just need it.
It's like, there's that's not something to be scared of,
that's something to lean into and truly just help him
be there if I can. I think there was another
instance where I think I was sitting with a client
and he's telling me his approach to treatment or looking
at it. Looking at treatment, you see, it's like having
somebody pinching you twenty four to seven and the professional
sitting in front of you telling you to take your
medication and use these coping skills to deal with the pinching.
But what he really wants and needs is somebody to
beat up the guy pinching them and making it stop.
So if we're especially as clinicians, approaching it in a
way of not looking at the individual in front of us,
I have a holistic picture, a negative aspect, like if
I can, I'll go.
Into just a little bit.
So I'm a part of this psychology reading group, I
guess I shout out to doctor Dusing of Integrative DBT
and Psychotherapy and Pennsylvania.
Who organized it.
And one of our recent articles that we read was
preserving our Humanity as Therapists by Nancy McWilliams of Rutgers University.
And this article was published, I believe in two thousand
and five. So it's sad that this theme still kind
of applies today.
Twenty years later.
Yes, Unfortunately, I see where many things twenty years later
are still very relevant today. So what stood out to
you about it?
I think the theme that stood out to me that
she discusses was how clinicians as a profession, from the
beginning are inherently subversive, but they've recently taken on this
role of being a technician opposed to a healer.
And it's like, we sit with our clients and sessions
and hear about these gaps or ruptures in these services
or programs that are affecting them in a negative way,
and the question becomes, are we going to return to
our original nature of our profession that psychotherapists should be
trying to understand and mend the broken heart, or heal
the tortured soul, or promote the acceptance of painful realities.
For instead, are we going to continue to medicate, manage,
can troll and curb the understandable behavior of these people
who are suffering just because they're quote end quote societal
irrational behavior, which is like inconvenient for the larger culture.
So, if you get into the clinical part, are you
still seeing yourself advocating on the legislative part as well.
Oh, one hundred percent, because I think somebody asked me
one time, if you plan on pursuing becoming a psychologist,
why would you still pursue the social work program? And
I'm like, because I feel a lot of people when
it comes to being a psychologists or being clinical kind
of like the basis of this question. It's like, you
think just clinical wise, or you think just research, and
there's this gap between research and providing actual therapy and
sitting with these clients. And I think the important part
is combining the two because if you're able to really
look at the whole picture in a holistic.
Image, you're able to address what's putting the client in
front of you, what are these social determinants of health?
How to really help them?
Because you can provide all the CBT, you can provide
all the coping skills in the world, But if this
individual is still homeless, or if this individual still doesn't
have a livelihood or a job or something to live
or hope towards, they're going to come back to you
and it's going to be this just recidivism factor.
Yeah, it's starting out in one spot, moving forward, getting
to a point, and then all of a sudden falling back,
and unfortunately you're right back to where you started. What's
your plan on breaking that cycle. I've talked with many legislators, judges,
you name it. Everyone has a great idea, a lot
of them the very similar different approaches. What's your approach?
How would you change this?
My approach?
And one of the main things I'd hope to take
away from this would be to pretty much just educate
the systems that are already in place, because we have
a lot of legislators, as you said, and people who
are implementing these assisted outpatient treatment facilities and programs, and
we have like I'm part of the National Chatting Science Coalition,
so we're advocating for IMD exclusion and increasing beds and
also the co response teams and c trainings. So we
are implementing all of these programs. But let's also at
the same time strengthen these programs that are already in
place and educating the individuals who are working there who
may be just thinking, like we need to stop waiting
for someone else to fix the issue or passing the buck.
We need to start thinking if not us, then who
not as like a martyr, but from an approach of
how can we help more? Because if you truly look
at the laws and stipulations that are already governing a
lot of these programs, they can do slightly more in
different work. And this is not to call out a
specific program or say that they have bad staff, but
to shed light on the fact that the entire system
and a lot of these various programs can already do
a lot in place, but maybe choosing not to or
don't have the staff equipped to do it, because they're
not tapping into that potential that's there.
Sure, I just spoke with a lady just last week.
Her husband was just getting out of jail. She's become
an advocate for prison reform. She said, the biggest problem
that she's coming across. She's going to legislators and senators
and taking it all the way to Washington. The unforeseen
circumstance that most people wouldn't know about that is the
laws are there. The problem than not being enforced. So
we have to figure a way to get the laws
that have already been passed to be enforced and worked
on so people know about it. Because when that kind
of issue falls through the cracks, it curts to people
that we're trying to help.
Yes, indeed, it's it's like there's I think there was
one bill that was passed put on play. I think
there was one bill that was introduced to Congress, and
it's like trying to provide funding for the Bureau of Prisons,
states and localities to carry out mental health screenings and
provide referrals to mental health care providers for individuals in
prisoner jail.
For example.
One of the programs that I intern with which I
hope I can say, is like, I think it fits
the bill of.
One of those programs.
And so we have these programs that are there, but
providing funding to expand them or bringing awareness to what's
actually there. I think I listened to one of your
podcasts with one of the other NSSC National Shouting Science
Coalition colleagues who is stating that a lot of individuals
who are in these positions need to join groups of
people who have been through the process or have been
through the system before, because a lot of these things
are there, but the education and awareness of it isn't there.
And when you're going through the situation, you're having all
this energy arouse it you and you can't make proper decisions.
But having a grounded support system, you're able to navigate
and help your loved one who's going through this situation
to give a better outcome in there.
It's like being aware of what's truly there.
Yeah, there's a lot of issues that need to be addressed.
Of course, one big one is funding. It seems like
everyone I speak with says it was going fine, but
now all of a sudden, funding has dried up some.
So that's a key issue. When the funding drives up,
of course, it hurts the people that we're trying to help.
I think a key thing that we have to change
is perception. I'm trying to use that word instead of
the word stigma. I think the word stigma has kind
of a negative connotation to it, So let's change that perception.
An example of that if someone's walking along and they
see someone that's homeless, they have a perception of what
they think it is. In reality, it's probably no way
is near what they thought. So it's a tough thing
that we have to do, but we do have to
take and change the perception so people can get more
help that they desperately need.
It really is I love that you said, changing the
word from stigma to perception, because I think one of
the things that I've noticed too among like some of
the journeys that I've been in with different internships in
different areas and interacting with different people, it's all about
how you present information. So you could have somebody who
has that negative perception, but the minute you mentioned homeless,
or let's say you're talking to a radical conservative and
you say the word woke or you know, liberal or
something of that nature, their ears immediately turn off and
the conversations ended. So every intention that you had of
helping let's say the population or advocating it's move at
that point. So being able to change that perception and
knowing how to present information in a way that the
individual that you're speaking to actually listens and digest the
information is of the utmost important.
And yeah, so what do you think is important that
the listeners here? We've talked about a lot of things,
things that are very important. So what do you think
that they need to hear that is important for them
to understand of what you're trying to do and what
you're trying to accomplish.
That is a really good question.
I think I would say that if everybody, if anybody
takes anything, it's to advocate and educate.
And no matter.
Whether you were you know, the small intern on the
bottom of the totem pole, or you were a family member,
or you were a client yourself going through it, I
think being able to as we were just stating, present
information to individuals and educate them in a way that
they're not caught off guard or defensive is the best way.
So like, for example, educating people in addiction facility staff
on anis ignosia or lack of insight as called or
medications and medication adherents or associated behaviors and side effects
that come with it, or advocating for a program to
actually accept clients on medications within their limits of their
scope of care. But kind of like we were talking
about earlier, letting them know that, Okay, just because you're
on an antipsychotic or psychotropic medication doesn't necessarily mean that
you're actively going through psychosis or you're going to be
a quote unquote non compliant individual because they just kind
of want I've seen a lot of programs kind of
just want things to go as simple as possible, but
able to present that information in a way that they
digest it, meditate on it, and really think about, okay,
we can do this, and being known that it's within
their grasp and it's not somebody else's duty, like in
a hospital, because as we know, these hospitals are out
of beds that they have no space. So we are
the individuals that unfortunately need to kind of buck up
and recognize what our limits actually are, what is within
our grasp, and how we can best help individuals and
not expect somebody else to kind of pick up the slack.
Yeah, it's very tough because the people that have their
ideas don't have any lived experience with it. Lots of
times you will find that these people get all the
information that they need, they can read through it, they
can form their opinions, but they really can't absorb it
all that much because they haven't lived it. Only the
people that are giving it to them lots of times
have lived it and they have to get through to them.
And it's just a tough situation.
Very tough.
I think that's one of the hardest hardest walls that
I've hit throughout my experiences because the people that are
in these positions of power and make all these decisions
don't have that relative leg and that's what's so important
to be able to have them over their ears and
listen to the people that do have these lived experiences
and know best. Like it's like, you can't be in
this industry claiming to be trauma informed and provide all
these beneficial services but not truly hold space for these
individuals and expect, you know, like an ideal client or
a perfect situation. It's like recovery, trauma and rehabilitation is messy,
and it's certainly not a linear process. The reality is
that compassion requires consistency, So the clients may not necessarily
be non compliant or difficult, you're just simply just not
wanting to give them a chance and really hold space
to do that work.
Yeah, I was talking with a state legislator. The good
thing about discussing that with her is she had the
lived experience. So because of that she was successful in
getting it across in the legislation to take to the Senate. Unfortunately,
when it got to the Senate, the bill died. Now
it's going to take several months in order to get
it back in front of the Senate and the House again.
So unfortunately, that's the issue we have with the representatives
that ultimately represent us, is because they have a limited
experience or understanding of it, they might not put that
as a high priority to something that's in front of
them that they may know a little better. So because
of that, the things that are important with mental illness
sometimes get pushed back, and that's very unfortunate.
It's if I think that's one of the biggest lessons
that I hope I learned relatively soon, because even sometimes
being I think I've worked at a Christian facility once
and I know there's like this big underlying theme depending
on where you are where they don't believe that mental
health is a thing. And unless you've had, like you
were stating, somebody in your family or a family member
who's gone through it, or a friend who's had a
kid have to deal with it.
It's almost as if it's nonexistent.
And it's not just in religious spaces, but even in
secular spaces as well. And it's like, if you truly
want to be a good person or replicate the characteristics
of you know, whatever God you serve, you should really
sit there with an open ear and provide the care
that a lot of the times you state that you
do I mean to get state funding.
A lot of the times you claim to do all.
These services, but are you truly applying them and I
think being able.
To provide those real, live, lived experiences.
Especially if it's somebody that's close to them, or somebody
that is a trusted staff member or somebody that's worked
with them for a long time, they may be more
receptive to hearing what actually goes into the care that
they may need to improve upon or enhance.
Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, there's no magic wand that we can
wave that will fix this. It's going to take a
lot of people, a lot of time, a lot of effort,
a lot of hours to get this across to the
people that can hopefully help those that really require the
needed help as soon as they can get it.
Yes, indeed, I was like, it's something that I and
I think I feel comfortable in saying this. That's something
that I pray for almost every night.
I was like, personally, with like face.
I pray that people's eyes are opened, the veil is lifted,
and people's hearts are softened to truly seeing the pain.
That is out there.
And what work is like sitting right in front of
us that we're able to do to provide the care
to these individuals. And I think that's a lot of
the passion that drives what I'm pursuing because it's there,
It's there for the grasping. It's like, you know, a
horse with a sugar cube in front of it, Like
if you reach your neck out a little bit, I'm
pretty sure they can grab it, but.
They don't know that.
But if you're like chasing it and pursuing it, it's like,
that's something that I want to be able to provide
and help people recognize that they can.
Do it as well.
And whether it's me or somebody else and they hear
this and take that idea and start their own thing.
I'm happy that the work just gets done. I don't
have to be the individual to do it.
Yeah. Sure, it's a team effort. That's good. Well, this
has been great, good conversation, good information. I really appreciate
you taking the time to join us today.
I appreciate you having me.
I think it's a blessing just to have my voice
heard from the little things that I've recognized and witnessed
throughout my time.
Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for taking
time out of your busy schedule to listen to our
show today. We hope you enjoyed it as much as
we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know someone
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