Is It Getting Hot In Here? Navigating Sex and Dating in Midlife

Robin Fisher Roffer: So by optimizing these hormones, it kicks everything in gear. It all comes together and falls into place. And then your partners are just like, wow, what took you so long to do whatever you're doing? Because this is really working awesome. Again, it's a process. And everybody's body is a little bit different. Both men and women can go through this optimization of hormone process. Typically, our cosmetic oncologist address both. by and large the female side of the equation. And urologist that is into hormone balancing would be the one that the men would go to. But there are some cosmetic gynees that would actually address the men's side too. And women will say, I'm ready to rock and roll. And now he's like, I'm going have a sandwich. So they're like, OK, your husband comes in with you next time you come to see me, and we'll talk. And then it kind of gets that ball rolling. Welcome everyone to the Plenty of Husbands podcast for women who are older, wiser, and hotter. This is where we inspire women in midlife to believe that they can love again. And I'm your host, Robin Fisher-Roffer. Now let's meet today's guest. We have the incomparable Sherry Palm. She is a dedicated patient advocate. nonprofit founder and CEO, and she's an esteemed author. With over a decade of experience in the field, Sherry has made a significant impact as a sex expert, a sex therapist, and an intimacy expert. Sherry is a global leader in advance and advocating for women's health, particularly in the area of pelvic organ prolapse, or POP. Now this is a condition, ladies. that affects nearly 50 % of us and often due to childbirth and menopause, this occurs, this POP. You may not have ever heard about this because so many women suffer in silence due to a lack of awareness and standardized screening for POP. Now Sherry is here today to shed light on this wildly important issue. You may have a friend, a mom, a sister, somebody this has happened to. but it could happen to you and we're gonna discuss how to prevent it and the profound effects that POP can have on intimacy, including incontinence and pain. So I actually have had a couple of friends this has happened to, so I'm dying to talk to Sherry, but I'm gonna start with talking about sex and intimacy in midlife and then we're gonna go and talk about her specialty. So stay tuned for that. Sherry has worked tirelessly to empower women to bring awareness to this issue and so many others when it comes to sex and women's health. So Sherry, I gotta tell you something. I'm super excited to talk to you today and I'm so happy you're here with us. Here's my first question, Sherry. I'd like to just, as I said, ask some general questions and then we're gonna get into pelvic organ prolapse and POP. But this podcast, as you know, It's focused on love in midlife. I want women to believe they can love again, even if they have POP, even if they're having some issues, because we all deserve to be loved. And a lot of the women that are listening to this podcast, they've had some serious trials and tribulations of finding love after 40. And you know, Sherri, better than anyone, that sex is a big I'm no spray chicken. Yeah, a big part of this. conversation, we still want to have sex. You're a sex expert, you're a sex therapist, and an intimacy expert. What's different now about men and women's sex drives and desires in midlife than when they were younger? What's changed for us? Well, clearly on both the female and male sides, we go through a lot of physical manifestations that the hormone drop is a huge piece of the puzzle, both for males and for females. we know we're going to into pre-menopause. mean, there's a lot of hoopla out there about how no one talks about menopause, and I say BS to that because I hear about it all the time. But the reality is, is even if we know there will be a hormone drop, we're never really ready for it. We really don't know what to expect sensation-wise or symptom-wise with that until we're waltzing into it. And so up until we hit that point, because it's different age-wise for women across the board, it's not like we all go instantly into perimenopause at 40 and instantly into menopause at 50, it's really variable. So when we start to have those first symptoms, we're in denial. Well, yeah, I was a little sweaty last night. I don't know what's going on. guess I just probably drank too much water yesterday. We don't really think about it in relationship to us when we read articles about perimenopause. And so as we dance through the decades, every decade's got its own issues and its own perks to it. And we're seeing such a huge surge right now in how women, like 50 is the magic numbers. Like you hit 50 and this was totally me. I was dancing on the tables at that bar. My 50th birthday, I was having a good old time. It's like, that's the miracle age, you know, it's like your self-confidence goes through the roof and you're... You're comfortable in your own skin and you kind of have a ballpark idea where you want to go and who you want to be. You're not completely there yet, but you have that ballpark vision. When you're in your twenties, you think you know it all and you don't know squat. So as we go through these life stages, you know, it's a continual evolution, revolution in each individual systems. And we just have to make sure that we tune into our bodies, recognize what's happening in our bodies. Do the deep dive. Do your homework, look for answers, and then tweak as you can appropriately for your own needs. know, Sheri, I have to tell you my personal story of going into menopause. I was trying to have a second baby with my husband at the time. I was very happy, by the way, with having my one child, because I had that child at 37. And I was thrilled, and she was perfect. But my husband really wanted another child. And it was a lot of pressure on me. and I went through three miscarriages and then I had three failed in vitro's. And somebody said to me, and now I was at 40, and somebody said to me, you could be going through menopause. And I said, what are you talking about? That's bananas. And they said, listen, I know this hormone expert in LA. I would say his name, but he has since retired. And I went to see him and he tested my hormone levels and I was already in menopause. Here I was going, jumping through all these hoops with all the mood swings that come from pumping yourself with hormones so that you can make eggs, right? So that you can write and do in vitro. And I already was done. But there's so much misinformation. That's I'm so excited that you're on the show today. Our backstories are quite similar because I had my son at 35 and I went through fertility to conceive him as well. I didn't have periods. spotted it lightly at 15. I had a light period at 17. I went on the pill at 18. And I know now what I didn't know then, that I was a classic body type that doesn't have periods and then goes into menopause early. And so I just got in under the wire as well. went through the, I had the injections and all the eggs and all that stuff. And I miscarried as well. My third round was the lock for me. And I was one of those, you probably were too high risk, multiple birth, and they're like, you won't have two or three, you'll have four or five. Thank you, that's what I'm shooting for. And so there's so little awareness of what women that go through fertility to conceive go through. It's a real challenge, it's a real challenge. when you get there. And there's lots of stories we don't tell in that, and we're not gonna maybe get into that today, because we have so much to cover when it comes to sex and middle age. But that's a good place to start, menopause. And he put me immediately on hormones and everyone was saying, you're going to get cancer. I mean, this was back in the day. I'm 64 now. So I've been on hormones since I was 40. And I feel fantastic and young and sexual and excited to be with my partner. I'm grateful to this doctor because I was having headaches like an ice pick was going through my head. I was having night sweats. terrible night sweats, I was having mood swings, and I had no idea, 40, what was happening to me. And I was getting tested for all kinds of things, and no one bothered to look at my hormones until this doctor who was a So I want women who are listening now to think about have you gotten your hormones tested if you are over 40? Get going on whatever you need to make yourself feel great. And like you said, Sheri, you've got to do the homework. and know what's right for you. There's a lot. So for me, it's been fantastic to be on progesterone and estrogen. I'm thrilled with it. I've gotten a lot of my friends to do it and my sister. So I feel like an advocate for it, but it does help with intimacy and sex, but it's not the only answer. So keep going. Tell us more. What else happens in midlife? All women obviously should go through a hormone profile. And I don't understand why gynecologically this isn't already being assessed as part of your annual exams when you get to be that pocket of age. I'm 72, so I've got you beat by a little bit time-wise. Oh my God, you look so good. Thank you. Right back at you. And the thing of it is, I started out, I was fortunate. I had a really outside the box PCP and she evaluated my hormone levels. I had Eric at 35 and then I started to go into a shift in those few years after I had him. I was diagnosed with POP in my mid-50s, but I had this between the 35 and the 40 pocket. There was just a lot of changes going on in my body. And my PCP did analyze my hormone levels and I started off on progesterone and then we added vaginal estriol and then we added Biast, which is two other kinds of ⁓ estrogen. And then we added testosterone. And I'm to tell you, if you haven't dug into testosterone, you've got to check it out because it will light you up. And initially for me, the first benefit that I saw was the muscle strength. I've got MS, I was diagnosed at 30, wheelchair bound, et cetera, et cetera. And I found out answers for myself by doing my homework, doing the deep dive. But I was concerned that as time moved forward, I didn't want to lose function of my limbs. And so for me, the testosterone made sense just for the MS side of the equation. It's like, well, that will help keep my muscle strong. But what I know now is as we lose estrogen, Estrogen is the base of your muscle tissue strength and integrity. That's the core. And I'm not just talking pelvic floor, sexual side, whatever. I'm talking all your muscles. So when we get into their perimenopausal age and on into menopause and you feel weaker, that's because your muscles are weaker. And so along with the, you know, your biceps and your quads and all that stuff, we're talking your pelvic floor. And this is where issues come into play. and men have pelvic floors as well as women. When you are having an orgasm, that is a contraction down there. And so it stands to reason that if you're losing estrogen as part of just the life flow of women, your sensation is going to drop, your contractions are going to drop, your orgasms are going to drop. You're also going to start pinging your pants. So the sidebar that it's not just one thing, it's a bunch of things. I don't understand women, women complain about vaginal dryness and they're still not checked for hormone levels. I don't understand that. doesn't make any sense. You know, I just talked to a girlfriend yesterday who asked me about testosterone and I said, I'm not on it yet, but I got tested two days ago. So we're going to see if that's for me. I'm open to all of it because I want to stay as young and vibrant as I can for as long as possible. Yes. But she said her, there's two doctors in her office. One doctor is your typical Western facing doctor that's been told doesn't really deal with hormones and that's something pushed to the side, particularly by a male doctor. And then on the other side is a female doctor who specializes in hormones. So she's been leaning on that doctor and that doctor is starting to prescribe for her testosterone. So this is interesting. We have to find the right doctor. whether in the office or outside of that office. Or for me, my doctor was in Beverly Hills and I live in Santa Fe. It's whoever you need to get it done so that you feel great. The pocket of gynecologists that are experts in this space are cosmetic gynecologists. And when people hear that term, cosmetic gynecologists, they think in terms of strictly aesthetics. They're making everything beautiful down there. Giving you the Barbie look, tightening the vagina and adjusting the... labial folds and that kind of thing. It's so much more. It's light years more than that surface stuff. These are the ones that promote hormone replacement at a huge level. They test your hormone levels. They help you through the process of balancing them because you can't just slam everything on there at once and then hope it works out okay because it doesn't work like that. So it's a process that you have to go through. And so it's important that women dig into cosmetic gynecology if they want to optimize their physical health, if they want to optimize their, not just their physical sexuality, but their mental sexuality. They work together. It's not just one or the other. They work together. And if your boyfriend or your husband or your lover is all, let's rock and roll baby, tonight's the night. I got such a plan for you. And you're like, meh, I'm not feeling it. You're not going anywhere, you know? So by optimizing these hormones, it kicks everything in gear. It all comes together and falls into place. And then your partners are just like, wow, what took you so long to do whatever you're doing? Because this is really working awesome. Again, it's a process and everybody's body is a little bit different and both men and women can go through this optimization of hormone process. Typically, our cosmetic gynecologists address both, by and large, the female side of the equation and a urologist that is into hormone balancing would be the one probably that the men would go to. But there are some cosmetic gynees that would actually address them inside too. And women will say, I'm ready to rock and roll. And now he's like, I'm going have a sandwich. they're like, OK, your husband comes in with you next time you come to see me and we'll talk. And then it kind of gets that ball rolling. And he gets the testosterone too. Right. Right. Well, this is fabulous. love this. This is a 21st century conversation, Sheri. We're done with our old thinking. That's not what is going to keep us excited and sexual into our 50s, 60s, 70s. Right. it is maybe. Exactly. ⁓ what are your rights? So just to recap quickly, because that was a lot of information. You got into this because you had all of this stuff happening through menopause. You end up having your second child, yes? And then you find No, first my first. I only have one. You only had one, just like me. You tried and tried like I did. You and I have the same story. Yeah, that's it. The backdrop's like, wait. wait, I've heard this before. is so incredible. And then we learned earlier that I'm from Cleveland and you're from Chicago. So we're kind of from the same neck of the woods, same story. And then you found, came to realizing that hormones weren't just good for your sexuality. They're also good for your MS, particularly the testosterone. has been great at strengthening your muscles inside and outside. That is just incredible. What are your recommendations for our audience as single women who are older, wiser, and hotter when it comes to sex and intimacy? Maybe you're getting out there for the first time. Maybe you were in a sexless marriage or your husband was sick for quite a few years and now you're going on dates again. Do you have anything to tell them to get them comfortable or ready besides hormones? Very good idea. Something that I think is really critical is women, the below the waist health issues in women, and obviously pelvic organ prolapse is my primary space, but there's so many layers to that condition. We're talking potentially urinary incontinence, fecal incontinence, chronic constipation, which is huge in women. Tissues bulging out of the vagina is a big deal, and that's pelvic organ prolapse. Your pelvic floor muscles get weak, loss of estrogen. and can no longer support those organs up in the pelvic cavity the way they're supposed to be supported. they shift, mean, they don't, actual organs don't come down the vagina, they're pushing through that vaginal wall. So what you see bulging out of the vagina is vaginal wall tissue with an organ right behind it. And so women start experiencing these symptoms. Incontinence is extremely common and that's usually the first thing that they're going to experience. Women just assume, had babies. That's what comes when you have babies. That's normal. It's not normal. peeing in your pants is never normal. Really? Because have so many friends getting up in the middle of the night, not making it to the bathroom, know, and they're just starting to get into their 60s. So that's not normal, It's not normal. Any leakage is not normal. Wow. There's no matter how little is, it's just a tiny little squeak of liquid that comes out with a cough or sneeze. Not normal. Weak pelvic floor. And we've all heard the term Kegels, or most of us have heard the term Kegels. Sure. And that's tied to strengthening the muscles that hold those organs up. But kegels alone, that's not enough to do what you have to do to get leveled off again. And so often, so women experience, whether it's the urinary incontinence or overactive bladder, that gotta go, gotta go, gotta go sensation, the chronic constipation, if you're noticing vaginal pressure, rectal pressure, or if you actually are brave enough to take a mirror, handheld mirror, stand up, lock the bathroom door, and take a look at the end of your normal day. at your vaginal tissues and see if anything is bulging out, that's pelvic organ prolapse. So when women actually recognize that they have that happening, of course they freak out instantly. Who wouldn't? know, it's like, what is that? It looks like a tumor. But now it's above and beyond just those physical manifestations. Now we're talking your impact, your self-esteem, because who wants to be intimate with their partner? if they're leaking pee, if they haven't pooped in two weeks and they're so bloated up, they feel like they're gonna blow up any second. If they have that vaginal pressure that makes intimacy uncomfortable for them. So these symptoms, they muddy the soup as far as intimacy. And because women are so embarrassed about these symptoms that they're experiencing, they don't tell their husbands or their boyfriends or the lovers. And those people, those guys now think she's just not into sex anymore. That's nowhere near what the reality is. So behind all of the soup, Vagina stigma is the big barrier. The term vagina is an anatomical term. It's not pornographic, it's not sleazy, it's an anatomical term, medical term, the only legitimate term for that organ in our body. But we can't say it out loud. And this is the same exact space that breast health used to be in up until the mid 70s before Coleman blew that all up. You couldn't say breast out loud back before then. You couldn't put it in print in newspapers or magazines. You couldn't say it on the radio or TV. I actually know a producer who was the first year of Good Morning America and they did a segment on breastfeeding. And he was told by the big shots, you cannot use the word breast. He's like, how heck am I supposed to talk about breastfeeding then? So they ended up, he told me he had other terms that they could use instead of breast and they finally caved. It was the most watched and responded to program of that first year. So the bottom line is, is because of all the stigma attached to women's below the waist health, women are anxious and restricted from sharing their information with, and it's not just with their partners, it's with their doctors. Doctors aren't asking the right questions during public examinations. That's a big bucket of worms. We won't even go down that one because that's going to take me three hours to talk about that. It's a huge train wreck in women's health. And so we're heading into these years where we're finally, we hit 50 and our self-esteem is boosted. You know, we've been successful in whatever we've been playing with to some degree and we know who we are and we're not embarrassed by, by talking out loud in public about whatever our shtick is, we're strong. And yet there is this aspect of our health and our sexuality that is still in the closet. You're so right, Sheri. That's why I wanted to have you on. I wanted you to talk about these things we don't talk about. I had a girlfriend go on a hike with another friend and have this POP happen right on the trail where she's feeling, you know, her, like you said, a bulge coming out. It was horrific for her, but she hadn't, it is what you say, a silent epidemic. She hadn't gotten the testing done. The doctor didn't recommend it and she's probably not on hormones. she's, pelvic floor is weak and all these things are happening. And it's all, when we talk about menopause and then we moved into hormones and now we're talking about what happens if you don't take them, if you don't do the Pilates and the kegels and all the things you probably need to do to keep that floor strong. this could happen. And like you said, 50 % of women this is happening to. And how do I know that? You're the author of two books on this subject, and I should say that. One is called The Biggest Secret in Women's Health, Stigma, Indifference, Outrage, and Optimism. That's what we're getting into. And the first book you wrote was Pelvic Organ Prolapse, a Silent Epidemic. And we say it's silent because of what you're saying. There's these stigmas behind talking about What's going on with us? don't even want to share it with our own doctor. We're embarrassed. Sheri, you're trying to take, just rip the band-aid off of all of this and talk to women because if we are just now becoming, if we are now a widow, we're becoming divorced, we're getting into the dating market, we have got to think about that health going on below. the belly button, as you say. Exactly. Yeah. And I've actually spoken with women that almost everyone has gone through a divorce. I mean, if you're over the age of 50, it's pretty much a lock. And so think about that from that side of the equation, whether you're newly divorced or you... Here's a scenario. A woman is not aware that pelvic organ prolapse is a thing because by and large, women have never heard of it prior to being diagnosed with it. And that was the case with me, despite being very proactive with my health. they're experiencing these symptoms. So yeah, they have some incontinence, know, and they haven't pooped decent bowel movement in a week and, and, that's aging, whatever. It'll be okay. You know, I'll eat more apples. And then they're not as sexually receptive because they don't feel good. They just feel icky down below and they really don't know why. And of course then their partners are getting frustrated because they're not getting the sex that they're used to having on a regular basis. And they end up, he goes out and starts dancing around with someone else. And then the woman finally finds out and she is ticked off and feels destroyed. They end up divorced and now she's out on the market looking for a new mate. How does she tell a new partner about what's going on down below? It would have been easier just to tell her husband and say, honey, this is what's happening and I'm going to get some help. Let's talk about getting help. How do we prevent POP and then how do we cure it once it strikes? ⁓ I never use the word prevent with prolapse because there are so many causes. Childbirth is number one, menopause is cause number two, but there are so many other lifestyle behavior, coexisting medical conditions that compound risk for all women. I'll give you one example. I'll give you a couple of examples here. Ehlers-Danlos syndrome is a double-jointed or a really stretchy skin, and that's weak tissue integrity, and those women have prolapse all day long. So if skin is sort of hanging on me or like crepey and stuff, I'm worried. I can't do it on mine, but if you could pull your skin up easy off your hand or off your arm or any place, if you can pull your skin up, that's a flag. You have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome and there's different grades of severity with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. So I don't want everybody to think that they've got that because I'm 72. Of course my skin is loose, you know, because I'm a dinosaur. But the bottom line is, ⁓ because those people that have that have got really stretchy skin. And you've seen, I can't watch Special Olympics gymnastics anymore because those women have got really stretchy skin. That's why they're into gymnastics. I just see uteruses dropping out the bottom end. I watch gymnastics. It's just like, I can't see it. Mom's with gymnasts. Yeah, it's like, I'm not trash talking. not poo pooing. I'm just saying, just be cautious where you send your daughters. Anyway, so another case in point would be people that are ⁓ in a wheelchair, that pelvic floor gets no exercise. They can't help that they're in a wheelchair, but there's no extension flexing of that muscle. And so that gets weak and they're predisposed to POP. If women have got, I've read that diabetes is a causal factor. I'm not sure that that's to a very strong degree. A very common fitness activity is jogging, marathon running, and every time your foot hits the ground hard, guess what? You're jerking your organs down. And as you get older, if you're not wearing internal support of some kind, or at least external, like stretchy, really tight stretchy pants, not just stretchy, tight stretchy pants, to create some support for your organs, you're jerking that stuff down. I, when I see, I mean, I was ⁓ not aggressive, but I was a bit of a runner in my probably in my late twenties. I never thought about my pelvic floor. I never thought about organs inside my pelvic cavity, anything happening with them. Our bony structures are different than male bony structures are. And so we don't have that full support that men have got. So I never say don't exercise to anyone. Fitness is critical to maintain our bodies as we grow older. Pick and choose carefully. This is an example on exercise side. High impact, not so good. Exactly, spot on. High impact is a concern. Swimming is the best because your organs float. and you're exercising all your long muscles. tip. So, swimming. Okay. And speed walking even is fine because now when you speed walk, you're doing this, you're not doing this. You're doing this. But wear really tight leggings. Right. Really fit it. Yeah, really supportive. waisted, Good. I wear those already. I didn't even know this, but I'm excited. I have a drawer full. But if you don't, ladies, go get yourself some. one size down on those leggings. Exactly. Exactly. It may take a little longer to get into them, but it's going to benefit you in the long run. Yeah. Forget sweatpants and joggers. just get on some. Yeah. Great. Use the real stuff. And there are internal support devices you can get. Pestries are a device. I wish I would have thought to dig one out of my boxes. A pestry is a silicone device that you insert vaginally, which can create support from the inside. And typically women that have got pelvic organ prolapse are Fitted for one, when they see their gynecologist. And they don't just wear them when they're exercising, they wear them all the time. Every day they wear them. And ideally they put them in the morning and they take them out at night. And then you have this all day long support internally. ⁓ If you want to experiment with how you feel when you're exercising, you can insert a tampon. That's the support of your legs too, but I don't recommend using those every day, all the time, all year long. That's not a good idea. just incisive. You don't really feel it. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Pestries come in multiple different types. There's like 20 some different types of pesteries, different sizes, different shapes, because we're all as different on the inside as we are on the outside. So that's how to deal with it. But if it's severe, is there an operation? Like what do you do? Do you have surgery for it? There are multiple non-surgical treatments and multiple types of surgical treatments for this. And you probably remember from back in 2011 to 2013, pocket there, there were a lot of commercials on TV for transvaginal mesh complications. They use mesh for surgery. They use a nicotinous sling for the peeing part of it is mesh. That is mesh and women don't realize that, but there's no problem with the mesh. They've gone, I mean, they did have complications when they first came out with using it for women's pelvic floors. And that is mostly because at that point in time, they were bringing in gynecologists, training them on a weekend program. to insert mesh into women that should, these are surgeries that should be done by year old gynecologists and these are the subspecialist experts in this space. They're the ones that do the surgery, not the gynecologist or OBGYNs. you still have sex or intercourse when you have the mesh? ⁓ yes, ⁓ yes, yes, absolutely. It's not like there's this big band of mesh that's, know, all over your pelvis. It's not like that. These are tiny little bits of mesh and they're... Like for example, for the incontinence side of it, holds up, your urethra goes like this and then it gets weaker and it's going down and down and down. And now you're leaking, the mesh is holding it up. Now the pee can't get past the curve. So same thing with the prolapse, they pull the organs up into their normal positions because they're dropping down as part of prolapse progression. There was five types of prolapse, there's four grades of severity. So as those organs shift downward, they need to be pushed back up into place. They're supported at the top by structural tissues and they're supported at the bottom by that pelvic floor muscle. And so as those structural tissues get weaker and weaker, now the organs are coming down. So they're just putting them back where they're supposed to be as part of surgery. And the type of surgery that the urogyne's do varies depending on the urogynecologist. They have, because there are so many types of surgery for prolapse, they each have their favorites. This is, I like doing this robotically. I like doing this laparoscopically. They used to do a lot of vaginally and that's not so much anymore. If they're using mash, that's more just data using your own tissues, sewing your own tissues up, they'll go vaginally or abdominal incision. If you've got a major repair that has to be done. So there's a lot of different options. A urogynecologist typically educates women about both non-surgical and surgical options because no one has to have surgery unless they want it. But the main thing that you're telling us is to be aware of these symptoms and do what you can. And like you said, not to prevent it, but to hold yourself in place almost. Like when I'm going on my hikes, I'm going to wear really tight fitting, high waisted, I want to keep everything in leggings. want to... make sure if I'm having some incontinent situations or laughing when I'm laughing, a little pee comes out that I'm talking to my doctor about it. I'm getting some of this, whether it's the mesh or it's some kind of insert, or there's just some, I can start a heavy Pilates routine on top of all this. Maybe I'm on testosterone now, I'm getting into the hormones, but all of this is working together to make us vital, vibrant, sexually excited again with our whether they be new or the ones that we have. And to be honest and to be talking about this with our friends and not make it such a stigma, because it's outrageous that I'm listening to you and I've never heard any of this before. Sheri, I have to say, and I feel like I'm a pretty tuned in person. I obviously have this podcast and I really am into being as healthy as I can. And you are just, you're shining a light for everyone in this audience. How do listeners and viewers stay connected with you? Is there, I know you have some social media, you want to tell them where to find you? If you either Google APOPS or Google My Name Association for Pelvic Organ Prolapse Support is the nonprofit that I founded for pelvic organ prolapse. So if you Google APOPS, that'll bring up the website. And there's a ton of information on the website, a ton. And if you Google My Name, Sherry Palm, you'll see all of. social media spaces. I'm on Facebook. We have got both a closed forum for women that are too uncomfortable talking publicly on Facebook about their condition. You can go to our closed... ⁓ We have a page where you can access the portal to get in to request entry. And it's a very secure space. We don't let everybody in. We screen everyone that wants in. It's a women's space. And we do allow the urogynecologists in there too, obviously, and physical therapists. But they can... request entry into that space. If you're comfortable talking openly about your prolapse situation, once you are diagnosed and you know you have it, APOPS has an open Facebook page as well. I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on YouTube, I've got, actually I have two YouTube pages and there's over probably 180 videos between the two pages. So there's tons of information out there for you. And I've got to say our goal is that closed patient support forum. The women that come in there, it's not... be educating women. It's women educating I want to say that again, Sheri. The Closed Patients Support Forum, which is on Facebook, right? It's on Facebook and you can find it on APOP's website. That's where you'll find the portal. You are an angel. You are a wealth of information. Thank you for dedicating your life to this. You are incredibly healthy and strong and you are somebody that we want to grow into is somebody who's still passionate about being vibrant and no matter what you've gone through. And I just applaud you. And I want to tell everyone that I have to say goodbye to this wonderful guest, but I hope that you've gotten a lot of information on plenty of husbands today. I am so happy I met you Sherri. And until next time, I'm Robin Fisher-Roffer and I'm reminding you girls to practice your ABCs of love. That means action. It means belief and it means courage. That's the ABCs of love. It's time for you to step into your next chapter in your greatest love story. Thank you so much, Sherry Palm. We so appreciate you and love you already. Bye now. Thanks so much, Robin. Thank you. It's been awesome.