Episode 164: Navigating Economic Pressures in Tree Fruit with Sam Godwin

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I think we're good.

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OK.

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Hi, friends. This is John.

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Welcome to the Regenerative

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Agriculture podcast,

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where we have all kinds of

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conversations related to

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regenerating soil health,

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regenerating

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the quality of food and

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ultimately regenerating public

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health, which,

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as it turns out, is kind of

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having its moment in the sun

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with

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what is happening politically

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here in North America.

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But it is really coming to

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more greater global

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consciousness.

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More people are aware of the

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impact that

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the quality of the food they

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have that they are consuming is

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having on their own health

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and the impact that it is having

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on ecosystems.

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So

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lots of fun conversations to be

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had in this direction.

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And in this discussion, I'm

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joined by Sam Goodwin in this

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episode.

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And I've been looking forward to

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having the conversation with Sam

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because we live in a moment

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where

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we are we are at the moment we

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are the lowest

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farm income relative to a

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relative price index, we're at

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the lowest farm income that

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we've been at in 100 years.

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Many farms are negative income,

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23 and 24 were very challenging,

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25 is even more challenging.

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And in that very challenging

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macroeconomic context,

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how do we think about moving

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forward with regenerative

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agriculture in that particular

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environment? So,

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Sam, I want to say thank you for

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being here. Thank you for being

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willing to share your story.

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I've really been looking forward

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to this discussion.

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Tell us a bit about your

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operating context, the

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environment that you're

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operating in, the scope of your

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operation.

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Yeah.

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Thanks, John, for inviting me.

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I've been looking forward to the

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conversation as well.

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We're a small tree fruit farming

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operation in north central

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Washington.

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We farm apples, pears and

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cherries predominantly.

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We do a little bit of stone

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fruit too, but nothing really to

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speak of.

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Our

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focus has been to

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really get good at growing

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organic fruit.

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And that's really been the

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journey we've been on.

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We were first certified organic

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in the early 2000s.

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I'm a second generation farmer,

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so started with my father, grew

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up on the farm

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in the 60s is when we originally

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started farming.

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And so I've been doing it a long

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time.

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I've been involved in the

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industry,

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not only with my own personal

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farm, but I've worked in a

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packing shed and learned about

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packing as well as in a sales

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desk, learning about selling our

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product.

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So I've kind of had the chance

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to work from tip to tail in the

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industry.

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Our farm is about 300 acres.

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It's small by tree fruit

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standards,

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and it's in a world that's

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growing almost exponentially.

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It seems like the big farms are

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getting much larger and the

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small farms are going away.

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So we find ourselves in a world

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where the

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family farm and family farmer is

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under this constant economic

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pressure to try to stay one step

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ahead.

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So in that search for

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efficiency,

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we started, we're in our second

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year of, I guess, really trying

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to understand and learn and

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engage with regenerative farming

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and

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take our organic farm to the

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next level is kind of the way I

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like to think about it in terms

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of

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switching to incorporate

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regenerative practices as well.

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I think that

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it's fascinating.

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We've learned a tremendous

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amount in a really short amount

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of time with the help of

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consultants from AEA.

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And so it's really

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really exciting to see SAP

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analysis and see some of the

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tools and see how

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we're starting to apply them and

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ultimately how it's

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transitioning into results on

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the farm.

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So we're just coming out of a

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cherry season where we're year

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two of cherries.

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And

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I saw results that quite

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frankly, were a little bit

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surprising to me from my

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20 plus years experience.

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OK, now now you've caught me.

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I was about to ask you to go

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back and I want to I want to

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learn more about your history

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and how your farm has evolved

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over the last 20 or 30 years.

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But

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now now that we're now we're

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going to save that question.

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Tell us about the cherries.

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So this season's this season's

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cherries,

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you know, we we

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just committed and kind of with

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blind faith jumped into to

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working with Jim and getting our

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SAP analysis and following the

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program.

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And

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not really knowing what to

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expect, but we, we just wanted

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to,

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I really believe in measuring

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and data. And so seeing the

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results at the, at the SAP level

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in the blocks,

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um,

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what, what we've experienced is

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the

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first year we saw results, but

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it was a really short crop.

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So everyone expects to have big

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high quality when you don't have

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any volume.

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This year was, that was not the

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case this year.

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We had

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a full crop.

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So we've averaged across our 60

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acres of cherries.

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We've averaged.

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A little over 10 tons to the

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acre of production volume

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and we've been

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it's big.

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It's good. It's a great

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target for us

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and we're we're averaging

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75 % of the fruit is nine and a

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half row and larger, which is

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most

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cherries you see in a grocery

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store are gonna be 10, 10 and a

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half row.

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So it's

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a full size larger with that

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crop load.

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The most impressive thing about

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it is we've seen our bricks of

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sugar in the cherries

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stay in that 19, 20, 21 brick

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range, which is fabulous for a

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red cherry.

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And our pressures have been in

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the 300s for the most part.

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I was just going to ask about

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firmness. Yeah.

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So the firmness has been has

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been outstanding.

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So as

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a result of that, we've been

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able to

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let our fruit hang a day or two

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longer

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because it's so firm.

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So then you get bigger, sweeter,

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and

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ultimately you get that higher

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yield.

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For for those of our listeners

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who aren't familiar with the

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Firm Tech and the Firmness

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Index,

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can you give us a bit of

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of context for what 300 means on

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a relative scale?

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Yeah.

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So so

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most organizations are saying

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you got to be, you know,

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280 or above if you want to

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export your cherries offshore

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somewhere, which is where the

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typically the premier markets

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are.

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But

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but we

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we saw

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I'll talk specifically about our

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shell and cherries, which is oh,

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it's an early cherry we harvest

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in June, mid -June.

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And

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It's a cherry that we always

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struggle for size, sugar, and

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firmness.

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And this year when we finished

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harvest, our final picking,

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we were still at like 311 on

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the scale. and

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our sugars were 21%.

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So it was an unbelievable eating

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experience.

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And

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ultimately it does nothing but

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thrill the consumer when they

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can get something that's big and

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crunchy and tastes that good.

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And so as a result,

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we saw really high packouts in

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the upper eighties.

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So I

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think that

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that's really was a was a really

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nice or a pleasant surprise.

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And I really attribute the only

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thing that's different this year

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than

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in the past is is trying to to

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really honor the regenerative

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SAP analysis and trying

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to keep things in balance.

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So I want to understand the the

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context of the the 10 tons per

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acre a little bit, because that

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number of what a what an optimal

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target

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might be can can vary widely

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based on tree spacing and tree

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size and so forth.

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So

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What would have been a

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historical expectation for these

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blocks?

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Well,

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normally with

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our

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historical average with Chelan

298
00:08:53,569 --> 00:08:54,909
Cherries, as an example,

299
00:08:55,649 --> 00:08:57,190
is probably six or seven

300
00:08:57,629 --> 00:08:59,549
tons to the acre on a good year.

301
00:09:01,090 --> 00:09:03,549
Not uncommon to see five.

302
00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:05,199
Wow.

303
00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,269
So a significant improvement

304
00:09:09,269 --> 00:09:11,269
because of the volume and the

305
00:09:11,269 --> 00:09:12,269
size and

306
00:09:13,029 --> 00:09:14,470
then having the quality

307
00:09:15,680 --> 00:09:17,039
meant that in a year when the

308
00:09:17,039 --> 00:09:18,960
market was, our cherry market

309
00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:20,559
this season, was under pressure.

310
00:09:22,110 --> 00:09:22,909
A

311
00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,580
lot of people had to stop

312
00:09:24,580 --> 00:09:25,379
picking.

313
00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:27,680
Markets were saturated.

314
00:09:27,819 --> 00:09:28,879
They couldn't move the fruit.

315
00:09:29,779 --> 00:09:30,639
But by having

316
00:09:30,990 --> 00:09:33,389
exceptional quality and size,

317
00:09:34,279 --> 00:09:36,460
we were fortunate enough to be

318
00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:38,500
able to continue to harvest and

319
00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:40,180
deliver the fruit.

320
00:09:40,250 --> 00:09:41,049
crop

321
00:09:41,909 --> 00:09:44,190
to the consumer, which is really

322
00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:45,029
what it's all about.

323
00:09:46,139 --> 00:09:47,799
Yeah, that reminds me of what

324
00:09:47,799 --> 00:09:48,599
you're saying.

325
00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:49,079
In essence,

326
00:09:49,950 --> 00:09:51,070
the comment that I've heard from

327
00:09:51,070 --> 00:09:52,330
several cherry growers, and I

328
00:09:52,330 --> 00:09:53,129
think

329
00:09:53,009 --> 00:09:54,509
Mike Omeg stated it quite

330
00:09:54,509 --> 00:09:55,309
succinctly

331
00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:56,919
in one conversation where he

332
00:09:56,919 --> 00:09:57,779
said that

333
00:10:00,309 --> 00:10:02,490
The the premium for

334
00:10:02,490 --> 00:10:04,370
regeneratively grown fruit that

335
00:10:04,370 --> 00:10:06,330
is higher quality in the case of

336
00:10:06,330 --> 00:10:07,490
cherries doesn't necessarily

337
00:10:07,490 --> 00:10:08,570
mean that you have a price

338
00:10:08,570 --> 00:10:10,029
premium. Sometimes it means you

339
00:10:10,029 --> 00:10:10,829
have a customer.

340
00:10:12,379 --> 00:10:13,179
Exactly.

341
00:10:12,659 --> 00:10:14,440
And that was exactly the case

342
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:15,659
and experience this year.

343
00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:17,639
Yeah.

344
00:10:18,129 --> 00:10:18,929
Yeah. So

345
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,039
you've you've been organic for

346
00:10:21,039 --> 00:10:21,839
quite some time.

347
00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:23,039
If you made the organic

348
00:10:23,039 --> 00:10:24,620
transition in the early 2000s,

349
00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:26,019
that's now almost a 25 year

350
00:10:26,019 --> 00:10:27,279
period. What has how

351
00:10:27,690 --> 00:10:29,289
has your agronomic management

352
00:10:29,289 --> 00:10:30,190
and

353
00:10:30,899 --> 00:10:33,759
How has your operation grown and

354
00:10:33,759 --> 00:10:35,759
evolved over that last 25 -year

355
00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:36,559
period?

356
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:38,069
Yeah, so

357
00:10:38,299 --> 00:10:39,600
because

358
00:10:42,590 --> 00:10:45,049
of our size and our location in

359
00:10:45,049 --> 00:10:46,049
north central Washington,

360
00:10:47,250 --> 00:10:49,509
we never expected our farm to

361
00:10:49,509 --> 00:10:50,750
become vertically integrated.

362
00:10:51,639 --> 00:10:52,860
There's not a lot of people.

363
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:54,559
We're a long ways from people.

364
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,720
Our valley is narrow and we

365
00:10:59,519 --> 00:11:01,639
don't have the big open spaces

366
00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:03,139
that a lot of the large

367
00:11:03,139 --> 00:11:04,879
vertically integrated farms

368
00:11:05,569 --> 00:11:07,470
enjoy in the southern part of

369
00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:08,269
the state.

370
00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:10,399
So we wanted to get really good

371
00:11:10,399 --> 00:11:11,940
at something that we thought

372
00:11:11,940 --> 00:11:12,740
they would want.

373
00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:14,419
And so our, our ticket was

374
00:11:14,419 --> 00:11:15,219
organic.

375
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,539
So we started learning and

376
00:11:17,539 --> 00:11:20,180
converting to organic early on,

377
00:11:20,759 --> 00:11:22,720
uh, relatively speaking to the,

378
00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:24,200
to the industry

379
00:11:25,220 --> 00:11:27,139
and, you know, took our learning

380
00:11:27,139 --> 00:11:28,539
lumps early because there's,

381
00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:30,100
there really weren't any books

382
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,180
or any recipes or any help

383
00:11:32,809 --> 00:11:33,609
to, to,

384
00:11:33,769 --> 00:11:35,190
to learn the organic techniques.

385
00:11:35,379 --> 00:11:36,620
or the tricks of the trade.

386
00:11:37,419 --> 00:11:39,000
So we've learned the hard way by

387
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:40,879
trial and error and, you

388
00:11:41,830 --> 00:11:43,169
know, just continuing to be

389
00:11:43,169 --> 00:11:44,470
innovative and looking for new

390
00:11:44,470 --> 00:11:45,669
ways and better ways to do

391
00:11:45,669 --> 00:11:46,469
things.

392
00:11:47,059 --> 00:11:49,220
So we've seen our scale, you

393
00:11:49,220 --> 00:11:51,159
know, the first year on

394
00:11:51,700 --> 00:11:53,799
the farm that my father started,

395
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:55,750
you know, we started with,

396
00:11:56,279 --> 00:11:57,620
I think it was like a 20 acre

397
00:11:57,620 --> 00:11:58,740
block that was organic.

398
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:00,919
Now we're farming,

399
00:12:02,350 --> 00:12:04,049
of the 300 acres, about

400
00:12:05,549 --> 00:12:07,629
225 are organic and

401
00:12:08,740 --> 00:12:11,059
my brother who I partner with

402
00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:13,370
has another 300 plus acres

403
00:12:13,370 --> 00:12:14,169
that's organic.

404
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:16,450
So we're pushing about, together

405
00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:18,149
we push about 600 acres of

406
00:12:18,149 --> 00:12:19,799
organic tree fruit,

407
00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:21,720
mostly apples and pears.

408
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:23,299
We have a

409
00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:26,460
small amount of organic cherries

410
00:12:26,460 --> 00:12:27,259
left.

411
00:12:27,379 --> 00:12:29,019
At one time, my whole 60 acres

412
00:12:29,019 --> 00:12:29,819
were organic.

413
00:12:30,179 --> 00:12:31,759
We've had to pull that backward

414
00:12:31,759 --> 00:12:34,480
down to where we only have about

415
00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:38,690
six or seven acres of organic

416
00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:39,610
cherries left

417
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,779
because of the problem with

418
00:12:41,779 --> 00:12:43,580
powdery mildew, which is a

419
00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:45,500
really tough disease that we

420
00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:46,299
face.

421
00:12:46,330 --> 00:12:48,389
My hope is that as we get these

422
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:49,189
blocks

423
00:12:49,539 --> 00:12:50,899
fully

424
00:12:51,629 --> 00:12:53,509
integrated into a regenerative

425
00:12:53,690 --> 00:12:55,309
practice and we have better,

426
00:12:55,490 --> 00:12:56,950
stronger, healthier plants,

427
00:12:57,789 --> 00:12:59,389
maybe we'll be able to convert

428
00:12:59,389 --> 00:13:00,990
our cherries back to organic in

429
00:13:00,990 --> 00:13:02,909
the future once we prove that

430
00:13:03,319 --> 00:13:05,279
we can manage powdery mildew.

431
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:08,110
But that was really the disease

432
00:13:08,110 --> 00:13:09,509
that pushed us out of

433
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:11,840
out of the organic cherry

434
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:13,059
business, sir, for the most

435
00:13:13,059 --> 00:13:13,859
part.

436
00:13:14,970 --> 00:13:16,450
Yeah, that is interesting.

437
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:17,669
That'll be an interesting

438
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:18,529
conversation. I know

439
00:13:19,009 --> 00:13:21,049
there are several cherry growers

440
00:13:21,049 --> 00:13:22,190
that are running trials right

441
00:13:22,190 --> 00:13:22,990
now with pinion,

442
00:13:23,330 --> 00:13:24,309
and I'd like to have a

443
00:13:24,309 --> 00:13:25,430
conversation with you on that,

444
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:26,309
right,

445
00:13:26,110 --> 00:13:27,250
that as well, because

446
00:13:27,970 --> 00:13:30,169
what we've seen so far is that

447
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:31,279
early days we're still getting

448
00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:32,679
experience with it but I think

449
00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:34,259
that one is going to move the

450
00:13:34,259 --> 00:13:35,980
needle for organic management of

451
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:38,240
mildew and various diseases so

452
00:13:38,649 --> 00:13:41,230
yeah that's that's mildew is a

453
00:13:41,230 --> 00:13:42,450
tough one and it's it's

454
00:13:42,450 --> 00:13:43,870
especially hard for us because

455
00:13:43,870 --> 00:13:45,509
we're so far north we're late

456
00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:48,480
and what we found is that before

457
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:49,279
the

458
00:13:49,659 --> 00:13:50,779
5th of July

459
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:52,500
we

460
00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:55,289
can manage organically and, and

461
00:13:55,289 --> 00:13:57,110
usually get an organic cherry

462
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:58,789
crop delivered without too much

463
00:13:58,789 --> 00:13:59,589
problem.

464
00:14:00,700 --> 00:14:02,200
When you get after the 5th of

465
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,220
July, it gets really difficult.

466
00:14:04,379 --> 00:14:06,690
And we pick cherries, I think we

467
00:14:06,690 --> 00:14:08,049
finished this year on August

468
00:14:08,049 --> 00:14:09,090
17th.

469
00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:11,769
Wow. So, so when you go that

470
00:14:11,769 --> 00:14:13,210
late, it's a long time you're

471
00:14:13,210 --> 00:14:14,450
exposed to weather and

472
00:14:14,450 --> 00:14:16,600
opportunities for, for mildew.

473
00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:17,990
Yeah.

474
00:14:18,129 --> 00:14:18,929
Yeah. So in,

475
00:14:19,529 --> 00:14:21,029
as you've transitioned from that

476
00:14:21,029 --> 00:14:23,279
original 20 acre block, what

477
00:14:23,279 --> 00:14:24,079
were.

478
00:14:24,610 --> 00:14:26,190
What have been the cultural

479
00:14:26,190 --> 00:14:27,629
management practices and what

480
00:14:27,629 --> 00:14:30,059
have been the things that you've

481
00:14:30,059 --> 00:14:32,220
learned from experience that I'm

482
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:33,819
asking for the benefit of other

483
00:14:33,819 --> 00:14:34,860
people so they can learn from

484
00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:35,879
your experience instead of from

485
00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:36,679
their own?

486
00:14:36,950 --> 00:14:37,750
Sure.

487
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:39,559
So what

488
00:14:41,149 --> 00:14:43,049
we found is the

489
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:45,110
prescription for converting to

490
00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:46,470
organic is, you know, you got to

491
00:14:46,470 --> 00:14:49,230
farm it organically three years

492
00:14:49,759 --> 00:14:52,180
before you convert on

493
00:14:52,850 --> 00:14:54,710
paper to become an organic farm.

494
00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:56,210
I mean, that's just the

495
00:14:56,419 --> 00:14:58,319
legalistic rules of organic

496
00:14:58,319 --> 00:15:00,190
farming. from the Department of

497
00:15:00,190 --> 00:15:00,990
Agriculture.

498
00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:04,600
What we found is that especially

499
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:05,399
with

500
00:15:05,850 --> 00:15:08,870
large canopy orchards,

501
00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:11,299
you really have to start about

502
00:15:11,299 --> 00:15:13,580
two years before that working,

503
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:16,269
softening your conventional

504
00:15:16,269 --> 00:15:18,409
program and kind of stepping

505
00:15:18,409 --> 00:15:19,209
back

506
00:15:19,409 --> 00:15:21,930
with a good IPM approach to

507
00:15:22,590 --> 00:15:24,950
build predators and to get your

508
00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:27,019
orchard ready to start the

509
00:15:27,019 --> 00:15:28,019
organic transition.

510
00:15:29,179 --> 00:15:30,419
What we found is that when we

511
00:15:30,419 --> 00:15:31,779
just tried to go cold turkey

512
00:15:31,779 --> 00:15:32,840
from one to the other,

513
00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:34,840
there was usually a train wreck

514
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:35,799
in year two

515
00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:37,860
of the conversion where

516
00:15:37,860 --> 00:15:38,659
something

517
00:15:39,220 --> 00:15:40,059
would spike out.

518
00:15:40,159 --> 00:15:41,659
You know, thinking about pears

519
00:15:41,659 --> 00:15:42,500
as an example,

520
00:15:43,419 --> 00:15:44,840
the first year it's like there's

521
00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:46,799
enough residual carryover from

522
00:15:46,799 --> 00:15:48,320
the fertilizer and all the

523
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:49,759
practices you've been doing

524
00:15:49,759 --> 00:15:50,919
conventionally.

525
00:15:51,350 --> 00:15:52,809
that you don't really notice it.

526
00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:54,549
But in year two, tree decline

527
00:15:54,549 --> 00:15:57,759
starts and then the onslaught of

528
00:15:57,759 --> 00:15:59,860
silla and mites and different

529
00:15:59,860 --> 00:16:01,830
pests come in and it becomes

530
00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:03,330
very difficult to manage.

531
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,100
So you end up losing a year or

532
00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:07,919
two of production because the

533
00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:09,340
pests get their share, right?

534
00:16:09,419 --> 00:16:10,219
One way or another.

535
00:16:11,299 --> 00:16:13,080
But by softening the program for

536
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:14,440
a couple of years before you

537
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:15,460
start the transition,

538
00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:17,700
you kind of help give the good

539
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:19,580
bugs a chance to catch up before

540
00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:21,379
you put them on the spot.

541
00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:22,359
So.

542
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:23,529
I guess that's probably my

543
00:16:23,529 --> 00:16:24,329
biggest

544
00:16:25,049 --> 00:16:27,210
thing from a pest standpoint.

545
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,139
Were there any things that you

546
00:16:29,139 --> 00:16:30,840
were doing specifically to try,

547
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:31,879
other than

548
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:33,629
softening the chemistries and

549
00:16:33,629 --> 00:16:35,110
the frequency of applications,

550
00:16:35,730 --> 00:16:36,569
were there any things that you

551
00:16:36,569 --> 00:16:38,090
were doing to specifically try

552
00:16:38,090 --> 00:16:39,909
to build the populations of

553
00:16:39,909 --> 00:16:40,709
beneficial insects?

554
00:16:41,389 --> 00:16:44,090
Well, we do beneficial insect

555
00:16:44,090 --> 00:16:46,129
release as well as sterile

556
00:16:46,129 --> 00:16:48,049
insect release to help control

557
00:16:48,049 --> 00:16:49,129
problem pests,

558
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:51,100
which is, I think, a pretty

559
00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:51,899
standard

560
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,000
practice now that a lot of

561
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,319
conventional farms are even

562
00:16:55,319 --> 00:16:56,720
doing some of these practices.

563
00:16:57,809 --> 00:16:59,610
I think that, I think that,

564
00:17:00,330 --> 00:17:02,490
you know, the organic way is,

565
00:17:02,490 --> 00:17:03,289
um,

566
00:17:03,730 --> 00:17:04,910
finding its way into the

567
00:17:04,910 --> 00:17:07,240
mainstream in the, in the Apple

568
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:08,259
industry, especially.

569
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:10,740
So there's companies out there

570
00:17:10,740 --> 00:17:12,339
for hire that, that provide

571
00:17:12,339 --> 00:17:14,059
these services on large scale

572
00:17:14,059 --> 00:17:16,630
to, to many, to many big farms.

573
00:17:17,509 --> 00:17:18,450
And do you think the pressure,

574
00:17:18,869 --> 00:17:20,029
where's the pressure coming

575
00:17:20,029 --> 00:17:20,970
from? to adopt these

576
00:17:21,309 --> 00:17:22,650
practices in more mainstream

577
00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:23,450
apple production?

578
00:17:23,470 --> 00:17:24,990
Is it just as a result of market

579
00:17:24,990 --> 00:17:25,869
pressures and demand?

580
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,680
I think it's, I think it's

581
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:31,160
85 % market pressure and demand.

582
00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:34,539
Uh, there's a small group of us

583
00:17:34,539 --> 00:17:36,319
who are still kind of altruistic

584
00:17:36,319 --> 00:17:37,420
and we think, you know, if it's

585
00:17:37,420 --> 00:17:38,640
good for the planet, it'll be

586
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:39,480
good for our farm.

587
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:41,109
And so,

588
00:17:41,779 --> 00:17:43,880
uh, but, but because of the

589
00:17:44,099 --> 00:17:45,579
price differentials that we've

590
00:17:45,579 --> 00:17:47,420
seen over the last 15 years,

591
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:49,480
A lot of people have dipped

592
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,799
their toe into organic.

593
00:17:51,759 --> 00:17:53,160
What I tell people is I don't

594
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,059
think organic farming of tree

595
00:17:55,059 --> 00:17:56,019
fruit is harder.

596
00:17:56,650 --> 00:17:57,470
It's just different.

597
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:59,410
You're managing it at a

598
00:17:59,410 --> 00:18:00,210
different point.

599
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:01,940
And the biggest difference is,

600
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,539
is there's no safety parachute.

601
00:18:03,819 --> 00:18:04,799
If you mess up,

602
00:18:05,750 --> 00:18:07,049
you're going to damage crop and

603
00:18:07,049 --> 00:18:07,950
you're going to lose

604
00:18:07,950 --> 00:18:08,849
productivity.

605
00:18:09,609 --> 00:18:11,599
Where conventionally, if you

606
00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:12,859
make a mistake, you can usually

607
00:18:12,859 --> 00:18:14,000
find a silver bullet.

608
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:16,009
And it may not solve the

609
00:18:16,009 --> 00:18:17,069
problem, but it's going to keep

610
00:18:17,069 --> 00:18:19,269
you from losing the battle with

611
00:18:19,269 --> 00:18:21,170
whatever the problem was in that

612
00:18:21,170 --> 00:18:22,349
in that instance.

613
00:18:24,859 --> 00:18:25,659
One of the

614
00:18:26,069 --> 00:18:28,009
observations that

615
00:18:28,990 --> 00:18:30,150
I've one of the things I've

616
00:18:30,150 --> 00:18:32,630
observed has been that as as we

617
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:34,089
get more plants growing

618
00:18:34,089 --> 00:18:35,430
underneath the trees,

619
00:18:35,509 --> 00:18:36,809
particularly in apples, when you

620
00:18:36,809 --> 00:18:37,609
have

621
00:18:37,650 --> 00:18:39,210
you no longer have an herbicide

622
00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:40,769
strip and you have the the root

623
00:18:40,769 --> 00:18:42,329
system surrounded by other

624
00:18:42,329 --> 00:18:43,970
plants and grasses and so forth,

625
00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:46,170
that there there

626
00:18:46,769 --> 00:18:47,569
can actually be

627
00:18:47,859 --> 00:18:49,740
beneficial fruit quality effects

628
00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:51,119
on a number of different apple

629
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,400
varieties. Have you observed

630
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:53,200
this to be the case?

631
00:18:53,220 --> 00:18:54,519
What does your under tree row

632
00:18:54,519 --> 00:18:55,619
management look like?

633
00:18:56,279 --> 00:18:57,079
Yeah, I

634
00:18:58,329 --> 00:19:00,390
there's there's two parts to

635
00:19:00,390 --> 00:19:02,170
that question, in my opinion.

636
00:19:03,099 --> 00:19:04,640
So if we're talking about a tree

637
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,319
that's under four years old,

638
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,259
that's where you're still

639
00:19:07,259 --> 00:19:09,089
growing the orchard.

640
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,910
It's very different than if it's

641
00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:13,049
a mature orchard and you're

642
00:19:13,049 --> 00:19:13,890
producing fruit.

643
00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:15,710
So in the first

644
00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:17,539
three or four years of the

645
00:19:17,539 --> 00:19:19,480
tree's life in the orchard,

646
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:21,609
you have to pay very close

647
00:19:21,609 --> 00:19:22,710
attention to that

648
00:19:23,369 --> 00:19:24,930
tree row because

649
00:19:25,309 --> 00:19:27,210
you don't want to out -compete

650
00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:28,970
the tree with weeds and other

651
00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:31,650
things. So we spend a lot of

652
00:19:31,650 --> 00:19:33,190
time and money managing

653
00:19:33,599 --> 00:19:35,119
weed control,

654
00:19:35,579 --> 00:19:37,200
especially in young and

655
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:38,240
developing orchards.

656
00:19:39,230 --> 00:19:40,450
It's really, really important

657
00:19:40,450 --> 00:19:41,250
because

658
00:19:41,509 --> 00:19:43,309
Most of the modern trees, if

659
00:19:43,309 --> 00:19:44,869
you're growing high density type

660
00:19:44,869 --> 00:19:47,240
trees, which are all shallow

661
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:48,420
rooted trees,

662
00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:49,980
that

663
00:19:50,490 --> 00:19:52,569
top 16 inches of the soil is

664
00:19:52,569 --> 00:19:53,670
where everything's happening.

665
00:19:54,420 --> 00:19:55,440
And it's really, really

666
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,200
important to manage the weeds

667
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,250
without pruning the roots

668
00:19:59,250 --> 00:20:00,049
because

669
00:20:00,180 --> 00:20:01,680
you don't want to stunt the tree

670
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:02,480
growth.

671
00:20:03,259 --> 00:20:04,380
So that's

672
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,240
the first two or three years.

673
00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:07,839
Once you have an established

674
00:20:07,839 --> 00:20:09,579
orchard and an established tree,

675
00:20:10,279 --> 00:20:11,759
you're absolutely correct.

676
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:15,119
We're big practitioners of mow

677
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:15,919
and blow.

678
00:20:16,549 --> 00:20:19,289
Our soils are highly variable

679
00:20:19,289 --> 00:20:20,599
where we grow.

680
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:22,559
It's a glaciated soil

681
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:24,960
that is within

682
00:20:25,690 --> 00:20:27,109
the orchard. We'll have sand,

683
00:20:27,210 --> 00:20:28,069
rock, gravel,

684
00:20:28,970 --> 00:20:31,869
and maybe a clay silt all in the

685
00:20:31,869 --> 00:20:32,730
same two

686
00:20:33,069 --> 00:20:34,230
or three acre section.

687
00:20:34,869 --> 00:20:35,669
So

688
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:37,650
we really work hard.

689
00:20:37,970 --> 00:20:40,589
We use a lot of chicken

690
00:20:41,539 --> 00:20:43,460
compost and chicken feather

691
00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:44,259
meal.

692
00:20:44,769 --> 00:20:46,869
That's kind of a backbone of our

693
00:20:46,869 --> 00:20:47,869
fertility

694
00:20:48,279 --> 00:20:49,099
program.

695
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:51,759
But we also use a lot of fish.

696
00:20:52,150 --> 00:20:53,490
We use some hog

697
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,000
and we've,

698
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,019
you know, we seed a lot of

699
00:20:59,019 --> 00:21:00,519
clover in the orchard and then

700
00:21:00,519 --> 00:21:01,839
mow and blow that for

701
00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:04,130
trying to get

702
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,079
more organic matter and nitrogen

703
00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:09,180
because our soils are so poor.

704
00:21:09,829 --> 00:21:10,890
I'm surprised by that.

705
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:12,130
Many cases when I have

706
00:21:12,130 --> 00:21:13,529
conversations with orchardists

707
00:21:13,529 --> 00:21:14,990
around recommending or

708
00:21:14,990 --> 00:21:16,630
suggesting the idea of clover in

709
00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:18,049
an orchard, that

710
00:21:18,619 --> 00:21:20,579
produces quite a reaction in

711
00:21:21,339 --> 00:21:22,359
regards to mole pressure.

712
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:24,519
Yeah, our

713
00:21:25,410 --> 00:21:27,650
soils are so

714
00:21:28,029 --> 00:21:30,450
old and weak. And we've been,

715
00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:32,579
I mean, some of my orchards have

716
00:21:32,579 --> 00:21:34,200
been in orchard for over a

717
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,000
hundred years.

718
00:21:36,069 --> 00:21:36,869
So,

719
00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:38,539
I mean, we have to,

720
00:21:39,170 --> 00:21:40,809
We spend more money and time

721
00:21:40,809 --> 00:21:42,890
trying to manage and build soil

722
00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:43,690
than

723
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,380
anything else we do on our farm.

724
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,079
I mean, it's the number one

725
00:21:48,079 --> 00:21:49,680
thing to have in a healthy farm

726
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,039
is having good dirt.

727
00:21:52,839 --> 00:21:53,700
So when you are,

728
00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:55,359
let's talk a little bit about

729
00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,500
the clover and also any

730
00:21:57,839 --> 00:21:58,639
other,

731
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:00,119
are you, with your, with your

732
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,400
mow and blow, are you actively

733
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:02,960
planting cover crops to

734
00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:05,369
be able to move those cover

735
00:22:05,369 --> 00:22:06,450
crops into the tree row?

736
00:22:06,769 --> 00:22:08,210
What does, what does your, when

737
00:22:08,210 --> 00:22:09,049
you say that you're spending

738
00:22:09,049 --> 00:22:10,569
more time and energy actively

739
00:22:10,569 --> 00:22:11,789
building soil, what does that

740
00:22:11,789 --> 00:22:12,589
look like?

741
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:14,119
Yeah. So, so,

742
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,559
I mean, we bring in a lot of

743
00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:17,960
additives from

744
00:22:18,589 --> 00:22:19,389
like

745
00:22:20,410 --> 00:22:21,809
perfect blend chicken,

746
00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:22,950
uh,

747
00:22:22,930 --> 00:22:23,789
processed chicken.

748
00:22:24,299 --> 00:22:25,599
So it's, it's basically

749
00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:27,319
composted chicken waste or

750
00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:28,119
litter.

751
00:22:28,819 --> 00:22:31,359
Um, so that's a big source of

752
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:32,680
our NPK.

753
00:22:34,089 --> 00:22:34,889
We,

754
00:22:34,750 --> 00:22:37,529
we have used a lot of

755
00:22:37,910 --> 00:22:40,640
there's in our area, there's a

756
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,880
peat moss or

757
00:22:42,740 --> 00:22:44,460
there was a peat moss place.

758
00:22:44,990 --> 00:22:46,789
So a lot of times with new

759
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:48,069
orchards, we would bring peat

760
00:22:48,069 --> 00:22:50,130
moss in to add water holding

761
00:22:50,130 --> 00:22:51,349
capacity and

762
00:22:51,789 --> 00:22:54,170
more organic matter into our

763
00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:54,970
soils.

764
00:22:55,859 --> 00:22:56,659
We've also,

765
00:22:59,589 --> 00:23:01,089
in all of our orchards, when we

766
00:23:01,089 --> 00:23:02,569
plant new orchards and work them

767
00:23:02,569 --> 00:23:03,369
up,

768
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:05,180
I have a plan.

769
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,400
of, it's a low profile growing

770
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,200
grass,

771
00:23:08,730 --> 00:23:10,809
white clover and vetch that

772
00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:12,559
we like to use.

773
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,359
And then we mow and blow that

774
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,159
into the,

775
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,740
into the tree rows.

776
00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:20,710
So we

777
00:23:21,059 --> 00:23:22,019
just can't get enough.

778
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:24,259
I mean, there's, it's,

779
00:23:25,150 --> 00:23:26,950
Transportation is so expensive,

780
00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:28,950
we can't transport enough

781
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:31,250
material or afford to transport

782
00:23:31,250 --> 00:23:32,069
enough material.

783
00:23:32,509 --> 00:23:34,210
We just have to try to grow more

784
00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:35,650
of it ourselves and provide it

785
00:23:35,650 --> 00:23:37,430
just because of the cost of

786
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:38,230
transportation.

787
00:23:38,990 --> 00:23:40,869
So to give everybody an idea,

788
00:23:41,130 --> 00:23:42,750
we're located about

789
00:23:45,049 --> 00:23:46,990
25 or 30 minutes from the

790
00:23:46,990 --> 00:23:47,829
Canadian border,

791
00:23:48,329 --> 00:23:49,849
almost in the center of the

792
00:23:49,849 --> 00:23:51,779
state on the east side of the

793
00:23:51,779 --> 00:23:52,579
Cascades.

794
00:23:52,980 --> 00:23:55,079
So we're in the bottom of the

795
00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:56,940
Okanagan Valley that extends up

796
00:23:56,940 --> 00:23:58,539
into British Columbia.

797
00:24:00,289 --> 00:24:01,269
And the

798
00:24:01,829 --> 00:24:04,029
town I live in has maybe

799
00:24:05,180 --> 00:24:06,440
the outlying area, the

800
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,400
population is 2 ,500 people,

801
00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:09,460
maybe,

802
00:24:09,579 --> 00:24:11,839
if we count everybody on a good

803
00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:13,799
day and a dog or cat or two.

804
00:24:14,740 --> 00:24:15,539
So

805
00:24:17,009 --> 00:24:18,309
it's a remote area.

806
00:24:20,579 --> 00:24:23,240
So given that distance that you

807
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:24,339
have, both from the perspective

808
00:24:24,339 --> 00:24:25,599
of bringing in raw materials,

809
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,259
but also then how does that

810
00:24:27,259 --> 00:24:29,140
influence your

811
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:30,710
your market,

812
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:32,230
marketing and market demand.

813
00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:35,170
Yeah, so so because

814
00:24:35,609 --> 00:24:36,690
of our location,

815
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:40,289
I'll use cherries as an example.

816
00:24:41,140 --> 00:24:42,140
Cherries are a

817
00:24:43,569 --> 00:24:44,869
really sexy product.

818
00:24:45,690 --> 00:24:46,710
People really love them,

819
00:24:47,109 --> 00:24:48,390
but they're really fast.

820
00:24:48,529 --> 00:24:50,089
You pick them one day, they're

821
00:24:50,089 --> 00:24:51,309
packed the next day, and then

822
00:24:51,309 --> 00:24:52,109
they're

823
00:24:52,089 --> 00:24:53,730
on a truck or an airplane going

824
00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:54,990
somewhere the third day.

825
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:57,660
And, you know, the lifespan of a

826
00:24:57,660 --> 00:24:58,460
cherry is

827
00:24:58,950 --> 00:25:00,190
seven to 10 days.

828
00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:01,119
typically.

829
00:25:01,740 --> 00:25:03,259
So it's just a very rapid

830
00:25:03,259 --> 00:25:04,059
product.

831
00:25:05,779 --> 00:25:07,650
Our cherries are predominantly

832
00:25:07,650 --> 00:25:09,869
are predominantly packed in

833
00:25:09,869 --> 00:25:10,669
Wenatchee.

834
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,519
So that's a

835
00:25:13,049 --> 00:25:14,670
two and a half hour truck ride

836
00:25:14,670 --> 00:25:16,569
from our farm just to get to the

837
00:25:16,569 --> 00:25:17,369
packer.

838
00:25:18,309 --> 00:25:19,950
So we've built hydro cooling

839
00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:21,869
facilities on our farm so we can

840
00:25:21,869 --> 00:25:22,669
chill the

841
00:25:22,759 --> 00:25:24,259
cherries to get the heat out of

842
00:25:24,259 --> 00:25:25,059
them

843
00:25:24,859 --> 00:25:26,420
before they go in the truck to

844
00:25:26,420 --> 00:25:27,259
go to Wenatchee.

845
00:25:29,769 --> 00:25:31,170
So all

846
00:25:33,049 --> 00:25:34,630
of our all of our products

847
00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:36,480
our apples and pears go to

848
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:37,960
Brewster, which is an hour south

849
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:38,759
of us.

850
00:25:39,069 --> 00:25:40,950
So our shortest ride is about an

851
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:41,750
hour to

852
00:25:42,450 --> 00:25:43,710
get it just to the packing

853
00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:44,930
facility, where

854
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:47,579
then it gets stored or processed

855
00:25:47,579 --> 00:25:48,379
and

856
00:25:48,420 --> 00:25:50,380
ultimately sent to a consumer,

857
00:25:50,759 --> 00:25:51,559
which is,

858
00:25:53,289 --> 00:25:54,869
I don't know, Wenatchee is

859
00:25:54,869 --> 00:25:56,769
probably 45

860
00:25:58,869 --> 00:26:00,569
minutes north of I -90,

861
00:26:01,049 --> 00:26:01,849
I would guess.

862
00:26:02,509 --> 00:26:03,309
And

863
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,640
Brewster's almost two hours

864
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:06,559
north of I -90.

865
00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:09,769
For our trucks, for the trucks

866
00:26:09,769 --> 00:26:11,049
hauling it to the consumer to

867
00:26:11,049 --> 00:26:12,509
get back onto an interstate,

868
00:26:13,390 --> 00:26:14,390
it's a long ways.

869
00:26:15,569 --> 00:26:16,670
It's a big, big consideration.

870
00:26:17,630 --> 00:26:18,430
Yeah.

871
00:26:17,670 --> 00:26:18,849
And then in many cases you're

872
00:26:18,849 --> 00:26:20,069
migrating or you're moving fruit

873
00:26:20,069 --> 00:26:21,170
from there to the East Coast.

874
00:26:22,079 --> 00:26:23,079
Exactly. So

875
00:26:23,450 --> 00:26:25,809
fruit can go

876
00:26:26,509 --> 00:26:28,490
all the way to the East Coast.

877
00:26:28,670 --> 00:26:31,109
It can go to Mexico

878
00:26:31,420 --> 00:26:33,359
in the South, up to Canada in

879
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:34,159
the North

880
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:35,910
in a

881
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:38,319
fair manner.

882
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,220
But some of it goes on an

883
00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:42,259
airplane or a boat heading

884
00:26:42,259 --> 00:26:43,059
overseas.

885
00:26:43,630 --> 00:26:45,329
So primarily to Asia,

886
00:26:46,170 --> 00:26:48,150
Asia is a big, is a big target,

887
00:26:48,210 --> 00:26:49,269
a big target market.

888
00:26:49,369 --> 00:26:50,750
Yeah. For the, for cherries,

889
00:26:50,849 --> 00:26:52,609
especially Korea, Asia.

890
00:26:52,769 --> 00:26:54,130
And then I think there's some,

891
00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:55,769
there's some. some in

892
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,759
South

893
00:26:58,109 --> 00:27:00,029
America, so down to Australia or

894
00:27:00,029 --> 00:27:00,829
New Zealand.

895
00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:04,359
But Asia is the main the main

896
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,400
market for or for that for the

897
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,480
export.

898
00:27:10,140 --> 00:27:12,059
So in in this and in this

899
00:27:12,059 --> 00:27:12,859
environment,

900
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:15,740
what are the you've

901
00:27:17,069 --> 00:27:19,210
been organic for some time and

902
00:27:19,210 --> 00:27:21,430
this entire marketplace.

903
00:27:22,339 --> 00:27:23,139
is,

904
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:23,880
as you said at the beginning of

905
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,680
this conversation,

906
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,779
the marketplace is relatively

907
00:27:26,779 --> 00:27:28,759
saturated for cherries and for

908
00:27:28,759 --> 00:27:29,559
apples.

909
00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:31,420
You made the transition to

910
00:27:32,150 --> 00:27:34,569
organic fruit some time ago to

911
00:27:34,569 --> 00:27:36,869
try to give you an

912
00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:39,920
additional market advantage.

913
00:27:40,569 --> 00:27:42,730
What are the incentives that

914
00:27:42,730 --> 00:27:45,910
have motivated you to consider

915
00:27:45,910 --> 00:27:47,390
a regenerative approach?

916
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:49,720
Yeah, so

917
00:27:53,390 --> 00:27:55,470
we've

918
00:27:56,990 --> 00:27:57,970
always

919
00:27:59,299 --> 00:28:01,579
been innovative or wanted trying

920
00:28:01,579 --> 00:28:02,379
to be innovative.

921
00:28:02,559 --> 00:28:03,359
I one

922
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:05,039
of my fundamental beliefs is

923
00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:05,839
that

924
00:28:05,900 --> 00:28:07,920
as a small family farm,

925
00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:11,329
if we're competing solely on

926
00:28:11,329 --> 00:28:12,910
economies of scale, we're going

927
00:28:12,910 --> 00:28:13,930
to lose that race.

928
00:28:14,069 --> 00:28:15,309
We're going to get ground up and

929
00:28:15,309 --> 00:28:16,269
we're going to I mean, we're

930
00:28:16,269 --> 00:28:17,069
going to lose.

931
00:28:17,980 --> 00:28:20,480
So as we evaluated and talked

932
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,640
about it with my family and and

933
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:24,220
we've we've worked through this,

934
00:28:25,619 --> 00:28:26,900
came to the conclusion that we

935
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,500
really only have one true

936
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,039
competitive advantage.

937
00:28:31,779 --> 00:28:32,579
And that is,

938
00:28:33,250 --> 00:28:35,529
since we're smaller, we can

939
00:28:35,529 --> 00:28:37,450
change easier and faster.

940
00:28:38,779 --> 00:28:40,440
So if we're willing to innovate

941
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,200
and willing to change,

942
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:44,769
we can outcompete the big guys

943
00:28:44,769 --> 00:28:47,230
to the breadcrumbs of what's

944
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,319
new and next and better.

945
00:28:50,019 --> 00:28:51,420
if we're willing to keep our

946
00:28:51,420 --> 00:28:53,740
minds open and keep flexible and

947
00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:55,000
striving for that.

948
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:58,289
And that's the game we're

949
00:28:58,289 --> 00:29:00,430
playing now is we're trying to

950
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,000
anticipate where the next

951
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,000
advantage is and then get there

952
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,339
first so that we can enjoy that

953
00:29:07,339 --> 00:29:08,680
premium for that time,

954
00:29:09,089 --> 00:29:10,470
always looking for the next one,

955
00:29:10,529 --> 00:29:11,529
because we've got to kind of

956
00:29:11,529 --> 00:29:12,369
jump to the next.

957
00:29:12,859 --> 00:29:14,460
I mean, that's the merry -go

958
00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:15,599
-round or the wheel that we're

959
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:16,619
on now is this.

960
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,400
constantly innovating.

961
00:29:18,619 --> 00:29:20,200
And you've seen it in

962
00:29:21,079 --> 00:29:22,440
tree fruit in the state of

963
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,240
Washington.

964
00:29:23,819 --> 00:29:25,599
We've been labor disadvantaged

965
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:28,079
for 25 years. It's not new.

966
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:29,829
It's just

967
00:29:32,069 --> 00:29:35,309
more urgent now because it's hit

968
00:29:35,309 --> 00:29:37,250
the tipping point to where the

969
00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:39,839
wages are getting so high that

970
00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:41,819
it's hard to keep

971
00:29:42,259 --> 00:29:44,039
finding the next thing that's

972
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:45,640
going to make you offset that

973
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:46,519
cost of labor,

974
00:29:47,549 --> 00:29:49,990
whether it's better tractors or

975
00:29:50,819 --> 00:29:52,559
more efficient sprayers or

976
00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:54,539
harvest platforms or whatever it

977
00:29:54,539 --> 00:29:55,339
is.

978
00:29:55,349 --> 00:29:57,069
We're constantly chasing

979
00:29:57,069 --> 00:29:57,930
mechanization,

980
00:29:58,750 --> 00:30:00,089
looking for the next

981
00:30:00,819 --> 00:30:03,680
labor savings in this really

982
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:05,799
labor intensive industry of tree

983
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:06,599
fruit.

984
00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,200
So you described your motivation

985
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,390
in terms of capturing market

986
00:30:12,390 --> 00:30:14,089
premiums and constantly being

987
00:30:14,089 --> 00:30:15,650
innovative, being at the being

988
00:30:15,650 --> 00:30:17,190
at the at the cutting edge, if

989
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:17,990
you will.

990
00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:20,769
And I

991
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,220
find it interesting that you

992
00:30:22,220 --> 00:30:23,599
framed it this way, because

993
00:30:24,329 --> 00:30:26,210
in many cases,

994
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,920
Well, I'm seeing that there is

995
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:32,289
a wide disparity or I suppose a

996
00:30:32,289 --> 00:30:33,930
great deal of diversity in

997
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,200
how

998
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:37,700
farm products are being priced

999
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:38,759
if they're being grown

1000
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:39,559
regeneratively.

1001
00:30:39,859 --> 00:30:41,000
Occasionally there is a premium,

1002
00:30:41,450 --> 00:30:42,670
frequently there is not.

1003
00:30:43,819 --> 00:30:44,920
What are you observing

1004
00:30:45,750 --> 00:30:46,990
Where are the advantages for

1005
00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:47,789
you?

1006
00:30:48,029 --> 00:30:49,750
Are there price advantages or

1007
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:51,269
what are the incentives?

1008
00:30:54,059 --> 00:30:55,619
There's a couple of incentives,

1009
00:30:56,460 --> 00:30:57,259
I think.

1010
00:30:57,519 --> 00:30:59,059
So we haven't proven it yet.

1011
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:00,339
I don't have the data to say

1012
00:31:00,339 --> 00:31:01,539
with certainty that this is

1013
00:31:01,539 --> 00:31:02,339
going to happen.

1014
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:03,079
But

1015
00:31:03,569 --> 00:31:06,589
my expectation is that as we get

1016
00:31:06,589 --> 00:31:08,250
the soil in balance and we get

1017
00:31:08,250 --> 00:31:09,490
better at regenerative,

1018
00:31:10,529 --> 00:31:11,369
we're

1019
00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:13,829
going to have less inputs that

1020
00:31:13,829 --> 00:31:14,769
we're going to have to put in

1021
00:31:14,769 --> 00:31:15,569
because

1022
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:16,779
We're going to have healthier

1023
00:31:16,779 --> 00:31:18,859
soil that's generating its own

1024
00:31:18,859 --> 00:31:20,140
nitrogen, for example.

1025
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:22,220
And so I'm going to have to

1026
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:24,940
buy less nitrogen to put into

1027
00:31:24,940 --> 00:31:25,839
the soil eventually.

1028
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:29,160
We're not there yet, but we did

1029
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,680
we did save about 10 percent on

1030
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,059
our nitrogen inputs last after

1031
00:31:34,059 --> 00:31:35,380
one year of experience.

1032
00:31:36,819 --> 00:31:38,619
We'll follow our SAP analysis

1033
00:31:38,619 --> 00:31:40,750
and we'll decide this, you know,

1034
00:31:40,789 --> 00:31:42,190
this spring or the spring of

1035
00:31:42,190 --> 00:31:42,990
what we do. But

1036
00:31:43,490 --> 00:31:44,869
we're continuing down that

1037
00:31:44,869 --> 00:31:46,130
continuing down that path.

1038
00:31:46,190 --> 00:31:47,069
So there's one.

1039
00:31:48,019 --> 00:31:49,720
I think there's some savings to

1040
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,480
by not applying stuff you don't

1041
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,279
need

1042
00:31:52,269 --> 00:31:53,849
once you build confidence in the

1043
00:31:53,849 --> 00:31:54,649
system.

1044
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,240
The other the other areas is I

1045
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:01,019
know organically there was a

1046
00:32:01,019 --> 00:32:03,279
premium because of the

1047
00:32:03,789 --> 00:32:05,950
belief in organic production

1048
00:32:06,390 --> 00:32:07,450
early on.

1049
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:08,919
And that

1050
00:32:10,019 --> 00:32:12,180
as demand or as supply of

1051
00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:13,900
organic has outpaced demand,

1052
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:15,599
that premium shrinking.

1053
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:18,630
And over the last 25 years,

1054
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:19,430
we've seen this.

1055
00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:20,730
It's like a roller coaster.

1056
00:32:20,869 --> 00:32:22,049
We've seen the wave where

1057
00:32:23,130 --> 00:32:24,150
prices look

1058
00:32:24,470 --> 00:32:26,069
Organic prices look great.

1059
00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:28,950
A bunch of new farmers jump in.

1060
00:32:29,529 --> 00:32:30,450
Supply goes up.

1061
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:32,250
Prices shrink down to near

1062
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,359
conventional pricing.

1063
00:32:35,069 --> 00:32:36,789
A bunch of people lose interest

1064
00:32:36,789 --> 00:32:38,369
because the premium's not there.

1065
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:39,269
They jump out.

1066
00:32:39,690 --> 00:32:41,450
The price grow back because now

1067
00:32:41,450 --> 00:32:43,170
supply and demand are back

1068
00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:43,970
aligned.

1069
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,759
We've seen, this is our third

1070
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:46,680
cycle of that.

1071
00:32:46,859 --> 00:32:47,660
So we

1072
00:32:48,579 --> 00:32:50,140
expect that that's just kind of

1073
00:32:50,140 --> 00:32:51,940
the nature of the game we're

1074
00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:52,740
playing.

1075
00:32:53,329 --> 00:32:54,730
So if that's a third cycle in 25

1076
00:32:54,730 --> 00:32:55,970
years, you have roughly an eight

1077
00:32:55,970 --> 00:32:56,769
year cycle.

1078
00:32:57,039 --> 00:32:57,839
Exactly.

1079
00:32:58,269 --> 00:32:59,069
Exactly.

1080
00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:00,460
So,

1081
00:33:00,650 --> 00:33:02,769
um, and people who aren't really

1082
00:33:02,769 --> 00:33:04,009
committed to,

1083
00:33:05,140 --> 00:33:06,900
or don't believe in organic.

1084
00:33:07,410 --> 00:33:08,809
who are just chasing dollars

1085
00:33:08,809 --> 00:33:10,069
tend to jump in and out.

1086
00:33:10,849 --> 00:33:13,019
And the people who think that

1087
00:33:13,019 --> 00:33:14,799
organic truly is,

1088
00:33:15,430 --> 00:33:16,230
you know,

1089
00:33:17,619 --> 00:33:19,279
more flavorful food that's

1090
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:20,720
better for you, that has

1091
00:33:21,740 --> 00:33:24,519
has more value than just being

1092
00:33:24,519 --> 00:33:26,180
organic, the name,

1093
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:29,200
they stick in it and they keep

1094
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:30,890
they keep trying to figure out

1095
00:33:30,890 --> 00:33:32,170
ways to innovate and get better

1096
00:33:32,170 --> 00:33:34,329
and and find the next, you know,

1097
00:33:34,329 --> 00:33:35,390
the next good thing.

1098
00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:38,000
So so on

1099
00:33:38,339 --> 00:33:39,139
our farm,

1100
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:40,309
we feel like

1101
00:33:40,490 --> 00:33:42,269
Regenerative is the next logical

1102
00:33:42,269 --> 00:33:44,950
step beyond organic because of

1103
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:46,910
the focus on the soil because we

1104
00:33:47,059 --> 00:33:48,680
found ourself doing this stuff

1105
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,480
Anyway,

1106
00:33:50,039 --> 00:33:51,599
so if there's a way to to

1107
00:33:51,599 --> 00:33:53,420
potentially monetize that in the

1108
00:33:53,420 --> 00:33:55,839
future And I think through roc

1109
00:33:55,839 --> 00:33:56,639
and some of these

1110
00:33:57,250 --> 00:33:59,069
it's so new. We don't know

1111
00:33:59,069 --> 00:34:00,289
exactly how it's going to all

1112
00:34:00,289 --> 00:34:01,690
play out But I think there's an

1113
00:34:01,690 --> 00:34:02,990
opportunity to

1114
00:34:03,559 --> 00:34:04,720
monetize this and

1115
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:06,769
and in in the tree fruit

1116
00:34:06,769 --> 00:34:08,719
industry, you know, there's one

1117
00:34:09,070 --> 00:34:10,329
large

1118
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,739
Organic outfit Whole Foods.

1119
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:14,659
I don't think it's a

1120
00:34:15,230 --> 00:34:16,710
they've been committed to

1121
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:18,389
organic for a long long time and

1122
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:20,230
have been champions of it

1123
00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:22,539
and and they're the only

1124
00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:24,650
People

1125
00:34:25,030 --> 00:34:26,909
right now that are really I

1126
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:28,940
think supporting regenerative

1127
00:34:30,250 --> 00:34:32,210
Monetarily and

1128
00:34:32,650 --> 00:34:34,510
and hopefully they continue to

1129
00:34:34,510 --> 00:34:35,619
do that at that level starts a

1130
00:34:35,619 --> 00:34:36,420
trend and other

1131
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:38,320
people who want to

1132
00:34:38,849 --> 00:34:41,550
jump in and get regeneratively

1133
00:34:41,550 --> 00:34:42,889
certified stuff

1134
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,639
will put their ante up to be

1135
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:47,980
able to get into it to get the

1136
00:34:48,260 --> 00:34:50,079
surety of supply that everybody

1137
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:51,300
wants or needs.

1138
00:34:53,690 --> 00:34:54,929
Where do you see the significant

1139
00:34:54,929 --> 00:34:57,110
opportunity for growers in the

1140
00:34:57,110 --> 00:34:57,910
future?

1141
00:35:00,179 --> 00:35:03,139
Well, I can share a little bit

1142
00:35:03,139 --> 00:35:05,840
about how we're looking at

1143
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:06,640
things.

1144
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:08,380
And I'm going to talk

1145
00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:10,039
specifically to tree fruit.

1146
00:35:11,119 --> 00:35:13,280
In the tree fruit industry, we

1147
00:35:14,260 --> 00:35:16,659
have moved to a model to where

1148
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,260
most of our new investment, we

1149
00:35:19,260 --> 00:35:20,199
have a very standardized

1150
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:21,000
platform.

1151
00:35:21,619 --> 00:35:23,480
All of our trees are 10, our

1152
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:24,820
rows are 10 feet, our trees are

1153
00:35:24,820 --> 00:35:25,620
two feet apart.

1154
00:35:26,619 --> 00:35:27,880
We're doing everything the same

1155
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,730
way because it allows us to have

1156
00:35:30,730 --> 00:35:32,909
standard operating or standard

1157
00:35:32,909 --> 00:35:34,190
work rules to

1158
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:37,599
get really good at managing the

1159
00:35:38,010 --> 00:35:39,150
envelopes in the environment

1160
00:35:39,150 --> 00:35:40,010
that we've set up.

1161
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,159
It also because of how far north

1162
00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:43,960
we are in our

1163
00:35:44,309 --> 00:35:47,250
lower degree degree hours, we're

1164
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,719
kind of paying more up front

1165
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:49,880
because we're planting more

1166
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:50,760
trees per acre,

1167
00:35:51,559 --> 00:35:53,219
but we don't have to grow as big

1168
00:35:53,219 --> 00:35:54,800
a tree to get the same volume of

1169
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:55,600
fruit per acre.

1170
00:35:56,650 --> 00:35:58,230
So we've done the math and

1171
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:59,590
convinced ourself that that's

1172
00:35:59,590 --> 00:36:02,269
what's best for our latitude and

1173
00:36:02,269 --> 00:36:03,449
longitude and location.

1174
00:36:04,809 --> 00:36:05,610
I

1175
00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:09,320
think the biggest advantage for

1176
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,739
growers in the future is to

1177
00:36:14,050 --> 00:36:15,329
Find the partner that you're

1178
00:36:15,329 --> 00:36:16,269
going to work with, unless

1179
00:36:16,269 --> 00:36:17,150
you're big enough to be

1180
00:36:17,150 --> 00:36:18,610
vertically integrated, find the

1181
00:36:18,610 --> 00:36:19,510
partners you're going to work

1182
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:21,510
with and get really good at

1183
00:36:21,510 --> 00:36:22,909
delivering what

1184
00:36:23,260 --> 00:36:25,980
the consumer wants and needs and

1185
00:36:25,980 --> 00:36:27,659
that they recognize as value,

1186
00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:29,900
whether that's organic or

1187
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:30,700
regenerative.

1188
00:36:30,659 --> 00:36:31,460
or,

1189
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,880
you know, the best Gala grow or

1190
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,400
conventional Gala grower on the

1191
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,480
planet that delivers only the

1192
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,559
perfect sizes for,

1193
00:36:38,889 --> 00:36:40,349
for the, for what their sales

1194
00:36:40,349 --> 00:36:41,150
company needs.

1195
00:36:42,190 --> 00:36:43,710
You have to be really valuable

1196
00:36:43,710 --> 00:36:44,630
to, to those

1197
00:36:45,289 --> 00:36:47,309
larger organizations so that

1198
00:36:47,309 --> 00:36:49,690
they'll want to continue to

1199
00:36:49,909 --> 00:36:52,210
handle your products and include

1200
00:36:52,210 --> 00:36:53,010
you in the,

1201
00:36:53,139 --> 00:36:53,940
in the game.

1202
00:36:55,289 --> 00:36:57,130
We're also trying

1203
00:36:57,570 --> 00:36:58,769
to ensure that by

1204
00:36:59,460 --> 00:37:00,260
we've.

1205
00:37:00,989 --> 00:37:03,369
moved to mostly proprietary

1206
00:37:03,369 --> 00:37:04,170
genetics.

1207
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:07,179
So by getting to genetics that

1208
00:37:07,179 --> 00:37:07,980
have

1209
00:37:08,869 --> 00:37:10,809
some favorable benefit.

1210
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:12,710
So for example,

1211
00:37:13,619 --> 00:37:15,460
we started growing Honeycrisp in

1212
00:37:15,460 --> 00:37:17,659
the 90s before Honeycrisp was

1213
00:37:17,659 --> 00:37:19,280
really the apple.

1214
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,300
And the primarily reason that my

1215
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:23,539
father started that

1216
00:37:24,170 --> 00:37:26,809
was because our sites are

1217
00:37:26,809 --> 00:37:28,469
farther north, they're colder,

1218
00:37:28,610 --> 00:37:29,769
our soils are poor.

1219
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:32,519
We couldn't grow good galas.

1220
00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:35,019
We grew a really good small

1221
00:37:35,019 --> 00:37:35,820
gala.

1222
00:37:36,050 --> 00:37:37,369
Well, nobody wants a small gala.

1223
00:37:37,489 --> 00:37:38,929
Everybody wants a medium to big

1224
00:37:38,929 --> 00:37:39,730
apple.

1225
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:42,230
Honeycrisp tend to be too big.

1226
00:37:42,940 --> 00:37:43,920
Put them in our soil type.

1227
00:37:44,019 --> 00:37:45,539
We grow a really nice medium

1228
00:37:45,539 --> 00:37:47,420
sized honeycrisp, which is

1229
00:37:47,420 --> 00:37:48,820
really difficult to do in good

1230
00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:49,820
soils in the South.

1231
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:51,680
So by

1232
00:37:52,059 --> 00:37:53,460
finding the right genetics and

1233
00:37:53,460 --> 00:37:55,079
the right match, it's allowed to

1234
00:37:55,079 --> 00:37:56,639
give us a competitive advantage

1235
00:37:56,639 --> 00:37:58,380
with honeycrisp.

1236
00:37:59,110 --> 00:38:01,530
So we grow a lot of honeycrisp

1237
00:38:01,530 --> 00:38:03,610
offspring proprietary genetics.

1238
00:38:04,059 --> 00:38:05,760
We have Cosmic Crisp planted.

1239
00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:08,380
We grow a phenomenal Cosmic

1240
00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:10,079
Crisp of unbelievable color.

1241
00:38:11,389 --> 00:38:12,989
We grow a Sugar Bee Apple, which

1242
00:38:12,989 --> 00:38:16,409
is the mother is a Honeycrisp

1243
00:38:16,409 --> 00:38:17,210
Apple.

1244
00:38:17,949 --> 00:38:18,750
It's a

1245
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,320
later developing, but super

1246
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:22,120
sweet,

1247
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:24,860
super exciting apple, probably

1248
00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:26,000
Well, I know it's

1249
00:38:26,489 --> 00:38:28,010
last year, it's the fastest

1250
00:38:28,010 --> 00:38:31,289
growing by volume and price of

1251
00:38:31,289 --> 00:38:32,489
all the apples in the apple

1252
00:38:32,489 --> 00:38:33,289
category.

1253
00:38:34,869 --> 00:38:35,670
We

1254
00:38:35,869 --> 00:38:38,369
grow Lucy Rose and Lucy Glow,

1255
00:38:38,489 --> 00:38:39,570
which is a red flesh.

1256
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:40,470
The internal

1257
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:42,010
flesh is red,

1258
00:38:42,329 --> 00:38:43,909
but its mother is a Honeycrisp.

1259
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,539
So we've had these proprietary

1260
00:38:46,539 --> 00:38:48,099
varieties that we're partnering

1261
00:38:48,099 --> 00:38:48,900
with

1262
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,079
to grow varieties that we think

1263
00:38:52,079 --> 00:38:52,880
or

1264
00:38:55,099 --> 00:38:55,900
we hope will

1265
00:38:56,570 --> 00:38:59,550
allow us to build our brand and

1266
00:38:59,860 --> 00:39:01,760
have something other than just

1267
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,460
another apple on the shelf.

1268
00:39:07,659 --> 00:39:08,860
Sam, I'd like I'd love to get

1269
00:39:08,860 --> 00:39:10,019
into this conversation with you

1270
00:39:10,019 --> 00:39:10,840
because I'm so

1271
00:39:11,210 --> 00:39:12,809
apples are so genetically

1272
00:39:12,809 --> 00:39:15,610
diverse and there are such

1273
00:39:15,610 --> 00:39:17,050
incredible flavor profiles

1274
00:39:17,050 --> 00:39:18,289
available, including many that

1275
00:39:18,289 --> 00:39:19,929
are not even grown commercially

1276
00:39:19,929 --> 00:39:21,050
yet at this point.

1277
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:22,330
That

1278
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,639
that's that's a very fun

1279
00:39:24,639 --> 00:39:25,980
earthworm hole to go down.

1280
00:39:26,059 --> 00:39:27,300
But I have a feeling that's an

1281
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:28,699
earthworm hole for another time.

1282
00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:29,700
OK.

1283
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,639
We started this conversation by

1284
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,380
talking about cherries and some

1285
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:36,180
of the

1286
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:37,840
quality improvements and the

1287
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:38,840
yield improvements that you'd

1288
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:39,640
seen with cherries.

1289
00:39:39,579 --> 00:39:40,380
And this,

1290
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:41,599
I'm not surprised by your

1291
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:43,260
experience because we found that

1292
00:39:43,829 --> 00:39:45,150
very early on,

1293
00:39:46,460 --> 00:39:48,159
15 some years ago, when we first

1294
00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:49,059
started working with a lot of

1295
00:39:49,059 --> 00:39:50,139
tree fruit, I had the

1296
00:39:50,769 --> 00:39:53,010
expectation that tree

1297
00:39:53,579 --> 00:39:54,619
fruit would be

1298
00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:57,030
inherently slower to respond

1299
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:58,630
than annual crops because

1300
00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:00,519
There is this physiological

1301
00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:01,739
component of dealing with the

1302
00:40:01,739 --> 00:40:03,380
entire trunk and branches and

1303
00:40:03,380 --> 00:40:04,180
the mineral,

1304
00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:05,420
the nutritional integrity of

1305
00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:06,639
this entire tree structure.

1306
00:40:08,090 --> 00:40:08,890
And

1307
00:40:08,849 --> 00:40:11,429
we've found that to not be the

1308
00:40:11,429 --> 00:40:12,809
case, particularly for the stone

1309
00:40:12,809 --> 00:40:13,769
fruit and particularly for

1310
00:40:13,769 --> 00:40:14,570
cherries.

1311
00:40:15,329 --> 00:40:16,710
Apples tend to be a little bit,

1312
00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:19,010
they have cumulative responses

1313
00:40:19,010 --> 00:40:20,130
that build year over year.

1314
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,329
And I'm intrigued by this aspect

1315
00:40:24,329 --> 00:40:25,949
of cherries because not

1316
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:28,260
only are they amongst the most

1317
00:40:28,260 --> 00:40:29,760
responsive tree crops, but

1318
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,039
they're also the shortest to

1319
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:32,619
harvest. I mean, many cases,

1320
00:40:32,659 --> 00:40:33,599
we've started working with a

1321
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:35,780
crop at bloom or shortly after

1322
00:40:35,780 --> 00:40:37,519
bloom and bud break in the

1323
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:38,320
spring,

1324
00:40:38,789 --> 00:40:41,130
and you've got two months to

1325
00:40:41,130 --> 00:40:41,930
harvest.

1326
00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:45,420
in that time window,

1327
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,659
the trees are able to respond to

1328
00:40:47,659 --> 00:40:49,539
nutrition in a significant way.

1329
00:40:49,699 --> 00:40:50,500
So all

1330
00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:52,010
of that as context to say, I'm

1331
00:40:52,010 --> 00:40:53,570
not really surprised by your

1332
00:40:53,570 --> 00:40:54,409
cherry responses,

1333
00:40:54,730 --> 00:40:55,530
but

1334
00:40:55,579 --> 00:40:57,460
what have you been observing

1335
00:40:57,460 --> 00:40:58,780
with the apples and pears?

1336
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:00,219
How has that been developing?

1337
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:02,579
Yeah, that's a great question.

1338
00:41:03,650 --> 00:41:06,710
So when I think about and

1339
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:08,630
compare and contrast the three

1340
00:41:08,630 --> 00:41:09,489
varieties,

1341
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:11,289
you're absolutely right.

1342
00:41:11,550 --> 00:41:12,350
Cherries

1343
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,619
The reason cherries, I really

1344
00:41:14,619 --> 00:41:16,019
enjoy working with cherries is

1345
00:41:16,019 --> 00:41:18,699
because they respond immediately

1346
00:41:18,699 --> 00:41:19,500
to

1347
00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:20,760
whatever you're doing,

1348
00:41:21,610 --> 00:41:24,429
whether it's a pruning cut or no

1349
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:25,849
matter what you're doing to

1350
00:41:25,849 --> 00:41:27,869
manipulate the tree, you see the

1351
00:41:27,869 --> 00:41:29,889
results right away and it grows

1352
00:41:29,889 --> 00:41:32,409
very rapidly. So we may get two

1353
00:41:32,409 --> 00:41:33,969
or three feet of growth in a

1354
00:41:33,969 --> 00:41:35,329
cherry tree in a single season.

1355
00:41:36,530 --> 00:41:38,170
So you make the cut and you see

1356
00:41:38,170 --> 00:41:39,710
the horticultural impact from

1357
00:41:39,710 --> 00:41:41,469
the timing and all of the

1358
00:41:41,469 --> 00:41:43,010
manipulations you're making.

1359
00:41:43,539 --> 00:41:44,639
whether you're trying to break

1360
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:46,039
buds or whatever it is you're

1361
00:41:46,039 --> 00:41:46,840
trying to manipulate.

1362
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:50,420
So cherries are fun because you

1363
00:41:50,420 --> 00:41:52,360
get that feedback that year.

1364
00:41:53,780 --> 00:41:54,900
Apples are kind of in the

1365
00:41:54,900 --> 00:41:55,700
middle.

1366
00:41:56,789 --> 00:41:58,449
Apples, I would say it's a two

1367
00:41:58,449 --> 00:41:59,469
to three year window.

1368
00:42:00,539 --> 00:42:02,920
So it's probably a third as fast

1369
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,110
as cherries when I think of the

1370
00:42:05,110 --> 00:42:07,070
horticultural responses to the

1371
00:42:07,070 --> 00:42:07,889
manipulations.

1372
00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:10,630
But because of that,

1373
00:42:12,739 --> 00:42:14,739
we've it allows us to develop

1374
00:42:14,739 --> 00:42:16,820
some rules in apples to say,

1375
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:17,760
hey, we know,

1376
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:19,400
look, when we make this cut,

1377
00:42:19,769 --> 00:42:21,269
we'll see a bud break behind the

1378
00:42:21,269 --> 00:42:23,289
cut at this timeframe as an

1379
00:42:23,289 --> 00:42:24,090
example.

1380
00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:26,519
So we can develop

1381
00:42:27,630 --> 00:42:30,070
prescriptions to get the tree to

1382
00:42:30,070 --> 00:42:31,170
do things we want to do.

1383
00:42:32,650 --> 00:42:35,429
Now with feeding the tree, we're

1384
00:42:35,429 --> 00:42:37,150
seeing the same thing.

1385
00:42:37,309 --> 00:42:38,349
So getting the right

1386
00:42:38,820 --> 00:42:40,079
You know, starting feeding at

1387
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:41,460
the right soil temperatures, for

1388
00:42:41,460 --> 00:42:44,460
example, to maximize root growth

1389
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:45,719
and root penetration.

1390
00:42:46,860 --> 00:42:48,880
We use a lot of fish product and

1391
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,639
getting that fish product fed at

1392
00:42:50,639 --> 00:42:52,460
the right time so that it's

1393
00:42:52,460 --> 00:42:53,920
breaking down and available in

1394
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:54,720
the right windows.

1395
00:42:55,269 --> 00:42:56,510
That's a lot of what we're

1396
00:42:56,510 --> 00:42:57,690
playing with and we're trying to

1397
00:42:57,690 --> 00:42:58,909
figure out now as we work

1398
00:42:58,909 --> 00:42:59,809
through the programs.

1399
00:43:00,389 --> 00:43:02,090
And it takes a

1400
00:43:02,909 --> 00:43:04,650
couple of years to see that

1401
00:43:04,650 --> 00:43:05,730
residual effect.

1402
00:43:07,230 --> 00:43:08,829
We're in year two of the

1403
00:43:08,829 --> 00:43:09,630
journey.

1404
00:43:10,469 --> 00:43:12,869
I think I see results in the sap

1405
00:43:12,869 --> 00:43:14,250
analysis in year two

1406
00:43:14,659 --> 00:43:16,820
where in my apple blocks I'm

1407
00:43:16,820 --> 00:43:18,559
starting to see trees balance

1408
00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:20,559
out. I'm starting to see some

1409
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:21,599
patterns where, you know,

1410
00:43:22,179 --> 00:43:25,639
the boron, magnesium and zinc

1411
00:43:25,639 --> 00:43:26,440
are

1412
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,079
three things that we're always

1413
00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:28,880
low in.

1414
00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,119
But I see that we're not as low

1415
00:43:31,119 --> 00:43:32,139
as we were last year.

1416
00:43:32,829 --> 00:43:34,349
We're low still, but we're not

1417
00:43:34,349 --> 00:43:35,170
as low as we were.

1418
00:43:35,590 --> 00:43:36,750
So there's hope that we're going

1419
00:43:36,750 --> 00:43:39,670
to build those and remineralize

1420
00:43:39,670 --> 00:43:41,110
the trees to the point to where

1421
00:43:42,309 --> 00:43:44,769
the spring application or the

1422
00:43:44,769 --> 00:43:46,289
fall application, whatever we're

1423
00:43:46,289 --> 00:43:49,309
doing is sufficient to span us

1424
00:43:49,309 --> 00:43:50,880
through the window.

1425
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:52,100
But

1426
00:43:52,510 --> 00:43:54,070
we're watching that.

1427
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,559
Pairs are like bonds.

1428
00:43:57,650 --> 00:43:59,190
They don't do anything fast.

1429
00:44:00,030 --> 00:44:02,679
It's an angel pair, it's eight

1430
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:03,980
or nine years before you see

1431
00:44:03,980 --> 00:44:04,780
your first pair.

1432
00:44:05,650 --> 00:44:07,230
So it's just everything slows

1433
00:44:07,230 --> 00:44:08,030
down.

1434
00:44:08,829 --> 00:44:10,739
And we're still on

1435
00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:12,349
the journey and we're chasing

1436
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:14,539
pears, but our expectations are

1437
00:44:14,539 --> 00:44:15,820
different because of the way

1438
00:44:16,099 --> 00:44:16,900
pears,

1439
00:44:17,139 --> 00:44:18,679
and pears are a lot more

1440
00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:19,480
complex.

1441
00:44:20,449 --> 00:44:21,769
They just behave differently.

1442
00:44:22,739 --> 00:44:24,019
The fruit's much more

1443
00:44:24,019 --> 00:44:26,059
challenging to get it harvested

1444
00:44:26,059 --> 00:44:26,860
right.

1445
00:44:27,420 --> 00:44:28,340
It really is,

1446
00:44:29,789 --> 00:44:31,210
it's a totally,

1447
00:44:31,590 --> 00:44:32,929
horticulturally, it's another

1448
00:44:32,929 --> 00:44:34,210
step up from apples.

1449
00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:36,780
It's a it's a real it's a real

1450
00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:38,780
challenge, but it's a fabulous

1451
00:44:38,780 --> 00:44:40,059
piece of fruit when it's done

1452
00:44:40,059 --> 00:44:40,860
well.

1453
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:41,560
And

1454
00:44:42,429 --> 00:44:45,150
that's the other thing that we

1455
00:44:45,150 --> 00:44:47,590
focused on as a small family

1456
00:44:47,590 --> 00:44:48,889
farm is our

1457
00:44:49,460 --> 00:44:51,079
fundamental belief was is if we

1458
00:44:51,079 --> 00:44:52,599
could get really good at really

1459
00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:53,539
hard things,

1460
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,460
it's harder for big companies to

1461
00:44:56,460 --> 00:44:58,400
knock it off and do it on 1000

1462
00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:59,200
acre scales.

1463
00:44:59,980 --> 00:45:01,159
We'll do it on

1464
00:45:01,949 --> 00:45:03,869
10 acre scales or five acre

1465
00:45:03,869 --> 00:45:05,809
scales and get really good at

1466
00:45:05,809 --> 00:45:07,190
doing something that's very

1467
00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:07,990
challenging.

1468
00:45:09,050 --> 00:45:11,190
and ultimately deliver high

1469
00:45:11,469 --> 00:45:12,369
quality fruit.

1470
00:45:13,170 --> 00:45:13,970
It

1471
00:45:15,469 --> 00:45:16,889
didn't talk a lot about how I

1472
00:45:16,889 --> 00:45:18,929
got to the farm, but I grew up

1473
00:45:18,929 --> 00:45:19,730
on a farm.

1474
00:45:20,590 --> 00:45:22,489
I trained as an engineer at

1475
00:45:22,489 --> 00:45:24,400
university and I worked in

1476
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,099
aerospace for 15 years before

1477
00:45:26,099 --> 00:45:26,900
coming back.

1478
00:45:27,769 --> 00:45:29,070
I wanted to I

1479
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:31,469
wanted to prove to myself that I

1480
00:45:31,469 --> 00:45:32,750
could go make it on my own

1481
00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:34,250
before just following in my

1482
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:35,050
dad's footsteps,

1483
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,280
even though that's what I always

1484
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,119
wanted to do. I wanted to be a

1485
00:45:39,119 --> 00:45:39,920
farmer.

1486
00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:41,139
I knew that when I went to

1487
00:45:41,139 --> 00:45:41,940
college,

1488
00:45:42,090 --> 00:45:42,890
but

1489
00:45:44,539 --> 00:45:45,800
Some of us, it takes a little

1490
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,119
time to learn that we got to

1491
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:48,420
just go back to the dirt and get

1492
00:45:48,420 --> 00:45:49,220
into it.

1493
00:45:50,769 --> 00:45:53,170
So when we

1494
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:54,440
came back

1495
00:45:54,909 --> 00:45:56,570
to the farm with

1496
00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:58,440
my wife in hand,

1497
00:45:59,110 --> 00:46:01,389
we really wanted to do what was

1498
00:46:01,389 --> 00:46:04,789
good for the farm and for the

1499
00:46:04,789 --> 00:46:05,800
plants. and people,

1500
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,400
but we wanted to grow what we

1501
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:09,800
felt like we wanted to eat.

1502
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,139
We didn't want to just deliver

1503
00:46:11,139 --> 00:46:11,940
another

1504
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,239
red apple that's red, and that's

1505
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:16,039
why we're selling it.

1506
00:46:15,980 --> 00:46:16,840
But we wanted to deliver

1507
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:18,619
something that truly excites

1508
00:46:18,619 --> 00:46:19,679
people when they eat it.

1509
00:46:23,940 --> 00:46:25,500
Sam, thank you for saying that,

1510
00:46:25,539 --> 00:46:26,699
because I think this is such an

1511
00:46:26,699 --> 00:46:27,500
important motivation.

1512
00:46:27,639 --> 00:46:28,440
There's something that I've

1513
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:29,219
observed in

1514
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:31,800
many cases

1515
00:46:32,349 --> 00:46:34,750
The growers who go down a

1516
00:46:34,750 --> 00:46:37,309
pathway of beginning to grow

1517
00:46:37,309 --> 00:46:38,170
differently,

1518
00:46:41,179 --> 00:46:43,059
quite frequently they are,

1519
00:46:44,019 --> 00:46:46,260
they're initially attracted by a

1520
00:46:46,260 --> 00:46:47,739
market incentive of some type

1521
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,980
or they're motivated by economic

1522
00:46:50,980 --> 00:46:51,780
duress.

1523
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:54,920
But often as they,

1524
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:56,120
and occasionally,

1525
00:46:56,619 --> 00:46:58,000
occasionally they're also

1526
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:59,639
motivated by health concerns or

1527
00:46:59,639 --> 00:47:00,440
health challenges.

1528
00:47:00,260 --> 00:47:01,320
They really want to do the right

1529
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,599
thing from a health perspective

1530
00:47:02,599 --> 00:47:03,820
for the health of their own

1531
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:04,620
health.

1532
00:47:04,789 --> 00:47:05,969
But for those who don't come

1533
00:47:05,969 --> 00:47:07,170
from that perspective, many

1534
00:47:07,170 --> 00:47:08,429
times there is this gradual

1535
00:47:08,429 --> 00:47:09,230
transition.

1536
00:47:10,190 --> 00:47:12,230
And those who thrive, they don't

1537
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:13,489
just survive, but they actually

1538
00:47:13,489 --> 00:47:15,130
thrive. Those who thrive are the

1539
00:47:15,130 --> 00:47:15,930
ones

1540
00:47:15,949 --> 00:47:18,030
who get to that place where

1541
00:47:18,030 --> 00:47:19,210
they're not just motivated by

1542
00:47:19,210 --> 00:47:20,469
the economics. The economics are

1543
00:47:20,469 --> 00:47:21,889
important. They're essential, of

1544
00:47:21,889 --> 00:47:22,690
course.

1545
00:47:22,949 --> 00:47:23,949
But what

1546
00:47:24,429 --> 00:47:26,769
they are really motivated by is

1547
00:47:26,769 --> 00:47:28,210
this desire to do the right

1548
00:47:28,210 --> 00:47:29,010
thing,

1549
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:30,840
to support people, to support

1550
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,019
the planet, to support their own

1551
00:47:32,019 --> 00:47:32,820
operation.

1552
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:34,980
and for optimal health for

1553
00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:35,780
everything that they are

1554
00:47:35,679 --> 00:47:37,360
stewarding and caring for.

1555
00:47:37,539 --> 00:47:38,639
And it's when they get to that,

1556
00:47:38,780 --> 00:47:40,199
they may not necessarily start

1557
00:47:40,199 --> 00:47:41,679
there, but once they get there

1558
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:43,440
internally in their hearts and

1559
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:44,240
minds,

1560
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:45,599
there is

1561
00:47:46,199 --> 00:47:49,099
this takeoff ramp that happens

1562
00:47:49,099 --> 00:47:50,260
in the way that they interact

1563
00:47:50,260 --> 00:47:51,060
with their farm.

1564
00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:52,440
It changes the nature of the

1565
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:53,780
interaction and it changes the

1566
00:47:53,780 --> 00:47:54,639
quality of the outcomes.

1567
00:47:56,420 --> 00:47:57,619
I agree with that

1568
00:47:57,619 --> 00:47:58,420
wholeheartedly.

1569
00:48:00,739 --> 00:48:03,139
My motivating factor for coming

1570
00:48:03,139 --> 00:48:04,840
back to the farm was one, I'm

1571
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,440
clearly passionate about farming

1572
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:07,800
and growing food and feeding

1573
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:09,679
people is I can't think of

1574
00:48:09,679 --> 00:48:11,340
anything that's more exciting to

1575
00:48:11,340 --> 00:48:13,619
do than to be able to to offer

1576
00:48:13,619 --> 00:48:15,139
really good tasting food to

1577
00:48:15,139 --> 00:48:15,940
people.

1578
00:48:16,809 --> 00:48:17,610
But

1579
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,679
more importantly to me, it was

1580
00:48:21,369 --> 00:48:23,889
I spent enough time in the city

1581
00:48:24,750 --> 00:48:26,230
to know that there's a lot of

1582
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:27,409
people in the city that are

1583
00:48:27,409 --> 00:48:28,530
dreaming about when they can

1584
00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:30,250
retire or move back to the

1585
00:48:30,250 --> 00:48:32,250
country or find a way to escape

1586
00:48:32,250 --> 00:48:33,050
the city.

1587
00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:35,139
And so I

1588
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:36,940
wanted my children,

1589
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:39,139
because I had a young family,

1590
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,300
I wanted them to experience

1591
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:43,239
living and growing up in a rural

1592
00:48:43,449 --> 00:48:45,829
community on a farm the way I

1593
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:46,630
had.

1594
00:48:47,090 --> 00:48:47,890
And so

1595
00:48:47,869 --> 00:48:49,769
we needed to get back when we

1596
00:48:49,769 --> 00:48:50,570
got back

1597
00:48:50,860 --> 00:48:53,539
so that my my oldest was in

1598
00:48:53,539 --> 00:48:54,340
eighth grade.

1599
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:56,280
So she was, you know, 13, 14

1600
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:57,080
years old.

1601
00:48:57,489 --> 00:48:59,130
And I wanted her to be able to

1602
00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:00,730
experience high school in a

1603
00:49:00,730 --> 00:49:02,590
smaller school, in a rural

1604
00:49:02,590 --> 00:49:04,809
community, and learn about the

1605
00:49:04,809 --> 00:49:05,610
farm.

1606
00:49:05,590 --> 00:49:07,369
And we've raised two other

1607
00:49:07,369 --> 00:49:08,630
children on the farm.

1608
00:49:09,570 --> 00:49:11,829
And what motivates me today is

1609
00:49:11,829 --> 00:49:12,630
about,

1610
00:49:12,769 --> 00:49:13,750
it's really about

1611
00:49:14,059 --> 00:49:16,099
figuring out how to bridge the

1612
00:49:16,099 --> 00:49:16,900
next generation.

1613
00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:19,650
So I'm happy to report that my

1614
00:49:19,900 --> 00:49:22,130
oldest daughter lives on the

1615
00:49:22,130 --> 00:49:22,930
farm with her,

1616
00:49:23,389 --> 00:49:24,429
with my son -in -law,

1617
00:49:25,179 --> 00:49:26,199
and they're raising

1618
00:49:26,550 --> 00:49:28,869
my grandchildren on the farm.

1619
00:49:30,679 --> 00:49:31,739
We're working through the

1620
00:49:31,739 --> 00:49:33,059
transition so that they're

1621
00:49:33,059 --> 00:49:33,860
slowly

1622
00:49:33,869 --> 00:49:35,670
becoming more engaged and they

1623
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:36,869
both work on the farm.

1624
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:38,710
So we're trying to build the

1625
00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:41,050
next generation and continue the

1626
00:49:41,050 --> 00:49:42,170
cycle so

1627
00:49:42,539 --> 00:49:44,920
that this revolution,

1628
00:49:45,809 --> 00:49:46,610
let's call it,

1629
00:49:46,789 --> 00:49:48,030
can continue to

1630
00:49:48,369 --> 00:49:50,769
do what's right and deliver

1631
00:49:50,769 --> 00:49:53,079
really good quality food that

1632
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:55,190
people can enjoy for years to

1633
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:55,990
come.

1634
00:49:56,739 --> 00:49:58,079
That's outstanding, Sam, because

1635
00:49:58,079 --> 00:50:00,300
I think that this issue of

1636
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:01,480
succession is

1637
00:50:02,179 --> 00:50:05,500
the issue that far too many

1638
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:07,039
farms are failing to think

1639
00:50:07,039 --> 00:50:08,460
through and failing to prepare

1640
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:09,260
for

1641
00:50:09,420 --> 00:50:11,380
and so

1642
00:50:13,260 --> 00:50:15,559
easily cause a legacy of

1643
00:50:15,559 --> 00:50:16,960
outstanding work to just fall

1644
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:17,860
off the end of a cliff,

1645
00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:19,280
come to the end of the road.

1646
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:21,809
Yeah, it's

1647
00:50:22,980 --> 00:50:24,559
sad, but true. It's sad, but

1648
00:50:24,559 --> 00:50:25,360
true.

1649
00:50:25,329 --> 00:50:26,130
Yeah.

1650
00:50:26,119 --> 00:50:27,460
Sam, we've had a very wide

1651
00:50:27,460 --> 00:50:28,360
ranging conversation.

1652
00:50:28,539 --> 00:50:30,400
What important aspects of your

1653
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:31,619
operation or of your work have

1654
00:50:31,619 --> 00:50:32,599
we not yet talked about?

1655
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:35,280
Well,

1656
00:50:35,019 --> 00:50:37,880
so the so the the

1657
00:50:39,179 --> 00:50:41,579
next part of the of the of the

1658
00:50:41,579 --> 00:50:43,179
journey for us, I think, is

1659
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,400
we're continuing to invest in

1660
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,440
our brand and trying to

1661
00:50:48,139 --> 00:50:50,659
differentiate our farms so that

1662
00:50:50,659 --> 00:50:51,639
we can so

1663
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:53,960
that we can continue to build or

1664
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,360
build equity in that in that

1665
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:56,800
brand and not just be another

1666
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:57,760
apple on the shelf.

1667
00:50:58,610 --> 00:51:00,710
And and in doing that,

1668
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:02,240
We also,

1669
00:51:02,820 --> 00:51:05,059
we also want to, uh,

1670
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:08,800
kind of navigate this transition

1671
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:09,600
of

1672
00:51:10,039 --> 00:51:12,159
what's next in regenerative in

1673
00:51:12,159 --> 00:51:14,619
the regenerative play and, you

1674
00:51:14,619 --> 00:51:16,059
know, how certification going to

1675
00:51:16,059 --> 00:51:17,199
play and how are,

1676
00:51:17,739 --> 00:51:19,550
how are all the policies and

1677
00:51:19,550 --> 00:51:21,070
politics and all the stuff that,

1678
00:51:21,690 --> 00:51:23,710
that ultimately set up success,

1679
00:51:24,559 --> 00:51:26,380
uh, try to navigate that

1680
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:28,699
without, um, stubbing our toe

1681
00:51:28,699 --> 00:51:30,139
or, or wasting a bunch of time

1682
00:51:30,139 --> 00:51:30,940
and money

1683
00:51:31,079 --> 00:51:31,880
chasing,

1684
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:33,160
uh,

1685
00:51:33,139 --> 00:51:34,920
you know, uh, a piece of paper.

1686
00:51:35,369 --> 00:51:37,230
that says that we're certified

1687
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:39,320
to only find out that that paper

1688
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:40,120
doesn't really

1689
00:51:42,110 --> 00:51:45,050
apply or fit, or it's just a

1690
00:51:45,050 --> 00:51:46,409
step in the journey, I guess.

1691
00:51:47,809 --> 00:51:49,650
The example I'll use is Global

1692
00:51:49,650 --> 00:51:50,450
Gap.

1693
00:51:50,789 --> 00:51:52,090
So we went through the, we went

1694
00:51:52,090 --> 00:51:53,650
through the race and got

1695
00:51:54,219 --> 00:51:55,860
global gap certified because

1696
00:51:55,860 --> 00:51:57,579
that's, was the food safety

1697
00:51:57,579 --> 00:51:59,300
model that was being followed.

1698
00:52:00,699 --> 00:52:03,099
And then as that took off,

1699
00:52:03,409 --> 00:52:05,809
it got more expensive and, and

1700
00:52:05,809 --> 00:52:08,670
became a burden instead of a

1701
00:52:08,670 --> 00:52:09,470
benefit.

1702
00:52:09,230 --> 00:52:10,030
And

1703
00:52:10,340 --> 00:52:11,300
I ended up, you know,

1704
00:52:12,039 --> 00:52:13,440
morphing to, uh,

1705
00:52:15,010 --> 00:52:15,909
to SQF,

1706
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:17,300
which is, you know,

1707
00:52:18,050 --> 00:52:20,170
a more farmer friendly approach

1708
00:52:20,170 --> 00:52:22,030
to to ensuring that we're

1709
00:52:22,659 --> 00:52:25,840
uniformly applying food safety

1710
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:26,920
standards in our daily

1711
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:27,720
operation.

1712
00:52:28,750 --> 00:52:31,250
So we want to avoid those

1713
00:52:31,250 --> 00:52:33,030
missteps as much as we can.

1714
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:34,940
But we want to also

1715
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,500
it almost feels like being a Boy

1716
00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:40,070
Scout. We need to as a family

1717
00:52:40,070 --> 00:52:41,869
farm, we need to get badges on

1718
00:52:41,869 --> 00:52:42,789
our belt so

1719
00:52:43,199 --> 00:52:44,679
that people know that we care

1720
00:52:44,679 --> 00:52:45,639
and we're trying the right

1721
00:52:45,639 --> 00:52:47,239
thing. So whether it's,

1722
00:52:47,710 --> 00:52:50,690
you know, be smart or be safe or

1723
00:52:51,619 --> 00:52:52,940
you know, having, uh,

1724
00:52:54,420 --> 00:52:55,639
you know, work with the Xerces

1725
00:52:55,639 --> 00:52:56,800
society to have

1726
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,880
beneficial pollinator habitat

1727
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:00,680
and,

1728
00:53:00,750 --> 00:53:01,929
and being able to get some of

1729
00:53:01,929 --> 00:53:02,730
the,

1730
00:53:02,619 --> 00:53:04,119
some of the recognition for some

1731
00:53:04,119 --> 00:53:05,380
of the activities we're doing

1732
00:53:05,380 --> 00:53:06,739
that are the right things to do

1733
00:53:08,139 --> 00:53:09,800
so that it helps people in

1734
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,420
market understand that

1735
00:53:11,860 --> 00:53:13,219
we really do care.

1736
00:53:13,460 --> 00:53:14,599
Cause at the end of the day,

1737
00:53:14,599 --> 00:53:15,840
that's what I want to come out

1738
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:16,640
as it,

1739
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:18,079
you know, we really care about

1740
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:20,360
giving you something that we

1741
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,460
serve and eat in our, in our

1742
00:53:22,460 --> 00:53:23,260
home.

1743
00:53:23,739 --> 00:53:26,139
It's not just another apple in a

1744
00:53:26,139 --> 00:53:27,199
box being

1745
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:29,539
shipped around in a semi truck

1746
00:53:30,010 --> 00:53:31,730
and having people being able to

1747
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:33,500
connect and feel that that

1748
00:53:33,650 --> 00:53:34,450
belonging.

1749
00:53:35,570 --> 00:53:37,130
Maybe it's my southern roots.

1750
00:53:37,309 --> 00:53:38,670
I mean, my parents were both

1751
00:53:38,670 --> 00:53:40,889
from Texas and you couldn't come

1752
00:53:40,889 --> 00:53:43,550
see my mom without getting a

1753
00:53:43,550 --> 00:53:44,909
glass of iced tea and a cookie

1754
00:53:44,909 --> 00:53:45,710
or something.

1755
00:53:45,610 --> 00:53:47,090
that she had just taken out of

1756
00:53:47,090 --> 00:53:47,890
the oven.

1757
00:53:48,579 --> 00:53:49,659
And and I think that's still

1758
00:53:49,659 --> 00:53:51,960
part of my part of my upbringing

1759
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:53,800
and heritage is that we we want

1760
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:55,760
people to leave feeling like

1761
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,920
they're better off than they

1762
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:57,940
were when they showed up.

1763
00:54:00,460 --> 00:54:01,260
Thank you, Sam.

1764
00:54:01,340 --> 00:54:02,679
That's a wonderful note to end

1765
00:54:02,679 --> 00:54:03,480
on, because

1766
00:54:03,980 --> 00:54:04,780
ultimately,

1767
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:09,599
The value of our work is in

1768
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:11,320
regenerating relationships with

1769
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:12,699
landscapes, with people, with

1770
00:54:12,699 --> 00:54:13,860
each other, with our supply

1771
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:14,660
chains.

1772
00:54:14,659 --> 00:54:16,159
And you are well down the

1773
00:54:16,159 --> 00:54:17,559
pathway towards regenerating

1774
00:54:17,559 --> 00:54:18,739
relationships on multiple

1775
00:54:18,739 --> 00:54:19,539
dimensions.

1776
00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:20,480
So

1777
00:54:20,159 --> 00:54:21,239
thank you for your work.

1778
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,300
Thank you for being here.

1779
00:54:22,380 --> 00:54:23,440
And thank you for being willing

1780
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:24,360
to share your experiences.

1781
00:54:25,809 --> 00:54:26,610
Thanks, John.

1782
00:54:26,769 --> 00:54:27,590
Have a great day.