Shrek with Atsuko Okatsuka

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Speaker 1: On the Beck dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the beck del Cast. Welcome to the Backdel Cast. My name's Cheney, my name's Caitlin, and this is becktel Cast, the podcast about how women are represented in movies. But today it's an episode we've been waiting for a very long time to do, and I'm so excited and it's going to be the best day ever. It's Shrek Scheck. It's Shrek, but you're excited about Shrek the musical, not Shrek the movie. I don't like Check the movie. I love. I love Shrek the Musical. It's the best Broadway musical ever committed to Broadway. Broadway Luminaries. Luminaries Sutton Foster as Princess Fiona, Brian Darcy James as Shrek himself. Um, I don't know who any of the those people are. Your God, I'm very excited for I have a lot of things to say about Shrek. I'm very excited for for today. So so this is our podcast about the Betel Test. Though, Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. If you don't know what that is, hey, i'll tell you. Is it test you apply it to a movie or whatever. It requires that there are two female characters with names they talk to each other about anything other than a man most movies. Spoiler, this movie does not do everyone does not do very well at all in terms. But the musical does better? Oh does it? Yes? Interesting? Shrek the Musical is essentially just a way more dramatic version of Shrek the movie. It's actually better because there's more emotional depth. There's songs that sound like they could be sung by Bon Jovi perhaps, but are instead being sung by Shrek, which is like wild, it's crazy. Well, I'm fascinated to see where this discussion goes. I'm so Excitedly, I'm so excited. Let's introduced our guests before we get much further. She's a comedian. She is the co founder of Disoriented Comedy at scoot SKA. Welcome, Hi, Hi, thank you for having me, Thank you so much for being here, for pitching Trek. For some reason, it spoke to me. That's amazing. Yeah, So what's your what's your personal history of with Shrek? When did you first see the movie. Gosh, I guess when when it first came out? Right, So one, two, one, yeah, I guess. So it's crazy that Shrek has been in our lives for this long sixteen years and honestly feels like longer. I don't remember life before Shrek. There's part two and it is, there are three, there's a three and maybe all and a five in production. Gang and Little did anyone in this room now a Broadway musical that ran for four years. I knew about the musical. I've seen like pictures of it, and just the aesthetic of like Shrek and his makeup. I was like, oh, I never want to see that. It's very scary. There's a full taping of the Broadway production on Netflix. It's been there for years. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who's ever watched it. But you can see Sutton Foster really really humiliate herself and and she's in She's in a show with Hilary Duff right now, so it's like, you know, she's not afraid to do things that are maybe a little embarrassing, but her playing Princess Fiona is like man. And she got nominated for a Tony so ups to Sutton Foster. Yeah, this was a This was a very popular, successful musical in spite of the fact that it was Shrek the musical and very scary to look at. Well, Shrek the movie was enormously popular. Yes, but the people dress, but people dressed a Shrek should not have worked out. No, it's and if you look at it, you're like, there's no, this is very scary. It's the makeup scary. It's it's just like, we'll put this in just like the green I mean, he's got like big baldest head and like it's little ears on it. It's a lot, which is what you said is great because that is the theme of Shrek. Right, Oh wow, okay, yeah, so they do Shrek in the movie. Yeah, they do. Okay, there's no there's no compromise. Arguably, maybe they're kind have been a little compromise, but I mean, I guess if you're trying to get kids to go to it. But yeah, and the whole point is, like, you know, it's not what's on the outside, right, right, that's the of the story. But with the cameras that close, and it's a it's a Broadway musical, so you're not meant to be as close as you can see them in the Netflix special, because you can see just Brian Darcy James sweating through his Shrek was given in a hundred time percent and that's why he gets nominated for Tony's Yeah, because I'm pretty sure Ogre's don't have pores, you know, and so you can't for the realism of it. Yeah, the animated Shrek seems very slick, right, Yeah, he's got hair, follicles, he's got pores. Yeah. Well the Shrek, the Shrek of the books is riddled with facial acne not And I'm not shaming Shrek. I'm just saying I have a visual of Shrek looking into wiping sweat off. Well, there's he's got blackheads. He's got hair too. Yeah, yes, yes, I can. I can relate. There's an opening scene, like the opening credits in the movie. There's a like a whole montage and Shrek is like getting a mud shower basically in one of the shots, and you like turns around, you see his nipples, you see his chest hair, he's got like, oh he does have chest. I didn't remember that. I just remember the mud blas. Yeah, I was looking for the finer details. Human is he? Yeah, you know, he's just like us. So you've just seen the first one? Yes, I have only seen the first one. Yeah, I totally the second one he has kids or something. The third one he has kids. The second one is about him meeting Fiona's parents. I own Shrek two on DVD. Brag you see. Aristotle and I were trying to figure out the difference between three and four. I don't think I went as far. I've seen the third one. I haven't seen the fourth one. See, we've seen the four one, but neither of us. Have you even't seen the fourth one? I'm sorry. I just made her will seem like more of a freak than he actually is. I've seen one to four in the musical a million times. I have not seen three. So what's your personal experience? I saw Shrek one in the theater the theater, the theater, not the musical staj theater, just the movie theater. And but yeah, I've seen Shrek probably a dozen times, quite a few times. I've seen this movie a lot. What about you? Well, this is one of my first of all, I'm sorry in advance, but this is one of the few chances I have on the podcast to shine in terms of having knowledge of a movie, because usually I'll say I watched it an hour ago, but this time I get to say I have a grand history of the Shrek. I did not see it in the theaters, but I did see it. I've seen it many times. I got very interested in the musical after being very afraid of it when I watched it in college on Netflix. I have since seen Shrek the Musical over ten times. I've written quite a bit about it. I've sold my own Shrek nudes on the Internet and raised three thousand dollars for Planned Parenthood, and described for the listeners at home who may not be familiar with your Shrek nudes, what exactly do you mean by that? When I say my Shrek nudes, I mean I'm painted myself green and took a bunch of nudes and then seldom on the world Wide Web, even though that wasn't their original purpose. Um, therefore the next one. But I recycled them and uh and and sold them for one of them many times the government was trying to defund Plan Parenthood. This is about two years ago. It seems to happen every month so yeah, it was are one of those times. Unfortunately we didn't say them with Shrek nudes, as I was hoping we would. But I've seen Shrek the Musical over ten times in three states, and I write about it about once a year, and it is become an important part of my life. And how similar is the musical to the first movie? I would say that, I mean, it's the same story, but the way it's told is very different. You learned aiming, even on a bass level. You learn way more about Shrek as a character, and you get more about his background and the first scene of the musical than you get in the entire movie. So yeah, we don't get much Shrek backstory you're doing later. But yeah, in the in the musical, the first scene is Little Shrek, which is always fun to see in the musical because you see a young usually a young husky boy, dressed as Shrek and his parents are singing to him about how ogres have to be very tough and they're hated by society and you have to be really tough. And then I kick him out of the house when he's seven years old to go and brave the world himself. So automatically, you're like, man, Shrek's had a hard life, whereas the movie is just sort of like some funny ones and now and you don't find out anything smash Mouth got about that sounds true. It does not age. Well, here's something fun in strict the musical, it still ends with smash mouths and they take their bows. It's great, like they just got the right smash Mouth was like, yeah, you can have that. Yeah, I mean smash Mother. I'm guessing they need to check sometimes here at like Ross Yeah, yeah, and that songs a cover anyways, Like that song is not smash Moth song. It's like some sixty All Stars. There's a star is a smash Mouth, the smash mouth a ridge. My favorite memorial tweet for nine eleven every year is the smash Mouth one where smash Mouth posts the same weird tweet every year of like smash Mouth remembers nine eleven and it just has a visual of those words and then like the silhouette of the twin. I was like, why you like what bizarre? The most bizarro tribute to nine eleven you'll find every single year for like as long as Twitter has existed. Okay, well, they're smash smash mouth, smash mouth. Let's do the recap. Let's do it. Shrek is about an ogre named Shrek. He's stinky, he loves mud. He just wants to be left alone, and he lives in It's like I don't know, Middle Ages whatever, like European my swamp kingdom thing, and all these fairytale creatures get dumped on his swamp lawn and he's like, wait a minute. But before that, he meets Donkey, and Donkey is a talking donkey because Lord far Quad is trying to round up all the fairytale creatures, so he's like paying people to get rid of them because he wants his perfect white kingdom without any growth fairytale creatures. So all these people, all these fairytale creatures end up on Shrek's thing, and he's like, I'm gonna go talk to this Lord far Quad. Meanwhile, Lord far Quad is trying to be a king. In order to do that, he has to marry a princess. But the funny thing is he's short. He's short, he's hilarious, he's short, and so therefore he's a little Napoleon, right. I wonder if that is like a poke at Disney for having like all like the short Daddies, well this whole movie at Disney to the point where it's like why does it exist? But we'll get there. But so Shrek's like, hey, far Quad, get your ship off my land, and he's like, go rescue a princess for me so I can be king and marry her. So Shrek goes and rescues Princess Fiona. She's locked on the highest tower of the tallest room of the whatever. Another person who's too good to be in this movie Cameron Diaz. I don't care much for Cameron Dia. I don't either, but she's still too good for this movie. She's got so hot critique. So he goes to rest he and Donkey, who are friends at this point, even though he's like, I don't like friends. I don't have any friends. They go to rescue Princess Fiona and she's like, wait a minute, you're an ogre gross. I hate ogre's. I need to be rescued by my true love so I can have true love's first kiss. And they're like, why is that so important to you? And then we find out it's because a spell had been cast on her and she turns into an ogre every night. But she and Shrek are like kind of started to dig their vibing, vibing. They're lamping and they're vibing. They're lamping together and they're starting to kind of vibe a little bit. So the Donkeys like hey, and Donkey discovers her secret. She keeps like best songs in the musical song by Donkey, Yes, song by Donkey, when Shrek and Fiona are vibing, so Brian, Darcy, James and and Foster like we're sharing squirrel meat or whatever they're eating. And then Donkey sings this whole song called Mega Move and it's a funky like but he's like, make a move. And then he brings in the three blind mice and they do a solo and they're like these hot but they're hot blind ladies. In this version, it's super fun. It's a blast top to bottom. You gotta love it all right. That's part of where the musical passes the Bectel test. The three blind mice talk to each other because they're all women, yeah I know, not all blind mice. So Shrek and Fiona their vibe in but he overhears this conversation between Donkey and Fiona where she's revealing that, oh, I'm an ugly ogre and I can't be this way and I have to marry Lord Farquad so I can be a beautiful, hot human lady the rest of my life to lift the curse as one does. And Shrek misinterprets this and things that she's talking about Shrek and being like, who would love an ugly beast like an ogre? So he gets all piste off and he like sells her to Lord far Quad. Basically, this is where the act one break in the musical is, and it's that's the act one because that's that's like the end of the movie almost, I know, I know, well, I mean act one break is is more than halfway. But accidents in theaters, I was thinking three act structure like screenplays. I do have a master screen scream, so it makes sense that he would think that. Um no, but in terms of act one intermission act um so act one is usually longer. But um yeah, there's this beautiful three part of harmony. I've performed it at many a karaoke with Shrek, Donkey and Fionna singing it's the song about who I'd be. Shrek is singing about how he wants to be a Viking. Donkey is thinking about how he fears he's going to be alone for the rest of his live Donkey if Toe saying about how her feminine illusions are falling apart. It's a It's a beautiful go see the musical. It's aid almost every junior high at this point. It's off Broadway every junior high. I saw it at Malibu Junior High last year, and it was bad. It sounds like an expensive production to pull off, especially for high school. Well that's yes, and there it's it's this huge puppet that has two songs. Yeah, so that's another place where it passes um. But anyways, so you can you you sort of have to drive out to wealthy I had to drive to Malibu because they can afford to put on Shrek Junior right, but worth the trip. Don't regret it. Glad to hear it. Yeah, So Fiona goes off and there she's about to marry Lord far Quad, and Donkeys like, Shrek, you fucking idiot. She likes you, and he's like what okay, and then he goes and storms the wedding and he's like, wait a minute, stop, I love you. And then they Shrek and Fianna kiss and she thinks it's lifting the spell. But because her true love is Shrek and she takes true love's form, she stays as an ogre and isn't a human anymore. And she's like, I thought I wouldn't be mutiful and he's like, you are mutiful, and then they get married in the end hashtag relationship goals, and it's suddenly the whole town is not scared of ogres anymore, right because of feminist icon trac. Yeah, they were like it's time. Yeah. Yeah, Well here's something that is bizarre. I mean, there's so there's this movie like Baseline totally pointless, shouldn't exist, but Lord Farquad's character is basically trying to like purify, you know, like Hitler style, trying to purify the kingdom by marginalizing anyone who is not human basically right and and created by humans. Yeah, you know, it's I mean, it's kind of it is kind of like gentrification or yeah, yeah, forcing that like humans who have power made these rules, human beings, made up fairy tales and then to suddenly be like, no, no longer, you get ready get out of here, which which yeah, these like imagination the Steak, we don't see that, which again I don't think totally. Yeah, So you go to the swamp where we fear another creature that we made up oker, you know, right, and that's where you will be forced to stay, which you know, there were no borders, so I don't know how that was going to work. They basically all say like, go to Shrek's house. Yeah, forced people out. They're like, oh, Shrek has a house, go there, and then everyone's which is another fun. All the Fairytale creatures have two numbers in the musical, one and I one one to let your freak Flag fly. Very inspiring. Okay, I guess I gotta watch THEA was nominated for a Tony Kate what I know. He could hit the high notes. He he was on the ones that do. He's great. Pinocchio. We've got next yeah, next, next spring season, We're gonna go. It'll be a trip. It's I'm busy that day. Listen. It's fun. It's a blast. So we're here to talk about mostly the movie, although feel free to I will continue to interject but thank you for. One of the things about the movie is that there's pretty much only one female character. You could argue that the dragon is female, but that dragon doesn't have any lines and it's a dragon. So there's essentially only one female character. Okay, in the movie, there's one, and she's Fiona. There's a few other one there's like you see some like fairy godmothers in like a witch and stuff like that, but they usually don't have lines, so there's really only primary right, So there's one primary female character, Fiona. Uh. Immediately, she's framed as like a damsel in distress, so she has to be saved, she has to be rescued, so the trope stands strong dance. They I mean, they subverted to an extent to the point where it might be uncomfortable for people, not to the point where she's the dominant one in the relationship. But this, I mean, this whole movie is based on like, oh, it's post modern fairy tales, which is grow up whatever, like dumb, but yeah, I don't know, right, I mean, this movie does a lot to sort of subvert the tropes of fairy tales, mostly in a very obnoxious, egregious way totally. But at the end of the day, the movie is still about like a woman needing to be saved by a man via being kissed by her one true love to break this enchantment. It's like one very heteronormative no surprise there, and too why Okay, So later in the movie we see a scene where Robin Hood comes and like tries to take her away and rescue her again, and then she beats the show out of him and all the merry men. If she's capable of that, why didn't she just save herself from being in the tower kick the Dragon's ask herself go to the witch's house who put the spell on her in the first place, and be like, fucking undo this, you ask whole Well, in theory, she was like beholden by the belief right that she had that this is what had to happen. But that's not well, it was never established. Well, maybe she thinks that she has to be rescued, but when she's describing the nature of the spell to Donkey, all she says is I need to kiss my one true love. So like, it's not clear why love she could have been active and not insanely fucking passive, got it right, Well, there's that problem with you. There is the problem that Shrek and Donkey and this entire movie don't respect women. Here are some examples, different comments that Shrek makes snow white ends up on his table and he's like dead broad off the table rack. It's the moment where they're entering the castle where the dragon lives. Donkeys like, so, where is this fire breathing pain in the neck anyway? And Shrek said inside waiting for us to rescue her feminist icon miss disappointing that quick one. Yeah, that's why I watched these movies eight thousand times and pick up all the stuff. Musical Shrek way less misogynical, were insecure, Oh that would be appropriate and a little bit jittering, and it's just like, yeah, to talk to girls. But in the movie, Shrek is constantly terrible, pushing her away, tossing her, throwing her, like a lot of physical violence. There's at least one point where he slams her down on the ground as like shut up. Yeah, it happens a lot in the movie. Oh Um, there's a moment when Donkey is telling Shrek to like wait till the right moment to crash the wedding basically, and he's like, chicks love that romantic crap. So just putting us all on a box, which is weird because he's been living alone for so long to know these even how he knows dating and chicks. And if he had been kicked out at seven as well, and I've been living in that and just been hanging out with mud and slugs and stuff, I don't know how he would know that, right, Yeah, that's true. Well I don't know. Maybe well, first of all, maybe seven in like older years is like maybe he's actually twenty five when he got kicked out. Sure, yeah, so his dad treated his mom right, But but that's not but that's not cannon to the movie. It's okay, yes I have. But in there I think I feel like in later Shrek movies, which I don't remember, is clearly that they address his background at some point. And maybe that's where the musical drew it from. Because the musical was released in oh eight. Maybe it was also all adapted from a book, or at least the first a wonderful book by William Steeg, who's a great New Yorker cartoonist. And I recommend the original, where Shrek is kind of just a villain who's forced to look at himself in a very existential way. Thus my favorite illustration from the book, which is Shrek the Illustrated Trek in a hall of mirrors looking back at a thousand tracks, and it's like, it's us, it's society. Interesting anyways, well back to the back to the bashing, to the beautiful source material with the dragon too, even though we we don't count her as a full speaking female role, when when she realized, like what stops her from being violent is like, I guess lust because she wants to donkey. Yeah she yeah, exactly, she sees something that she likes and and suddenly suddenly she has these long eyelashes that she's fluttering. And I'm going to stop my one dimensional character ways, which is I just breathe fire and stop people unless I fall in love with a with a donkey dude. And she does. Yeah, that's interesting. And you could sort of make the same argument for Cameron Diaz for Princess Fiona of like, you know, it's not until they meet a male love interest that they're like suddenly these dimensions are released or like empowered and somehow, like in theory, I feel like we're led to believe if Shrek and Doggy didn't show up, Fiona and the Dragon would not have changed on their own. Oh totally not. Like Fiona is like the only thing about her character, especially at the beginning, is that I need to find my true love or my true love needs to rescue me. It's like incredibly one dimensional. In the musical, Okay, Fiona is locked up in a tower by her parents on Christmas Eve, and her parents are holding her hostage because they're telling her that until her husband shows up that they were not going to release her. I think, actually you learned something to that effect in Shrek two. Well then there you go. So beautiful, beautiful song called um I Know It's Today, sung by three different Fiona's young Fiona, teenage Fiona, and of course Sutton Foster, who makes quite the entrance in that song. Um anyways, nominated for a Tony snubbed for someone who probably did a better job doing something else. Back to the Dragon, though, Uh, the point I wanted to make about that is that it drives me nuts in a movie or TV show or whatever, that there is a character who you don't really know what the gender is at first, and then the reveal is it's a girl, Like oh, that cop that takes off its helmet and gets off a motorcycle that was actually a woman, because it's like, how fucking stupid is it? That? Like being a woman is somehow like a bonkers reveal? Right, right, it's supposed to be like more impressive or or the flaws make more sense that yeah, or just like the thing that where I I mean, I get why they do it, I get what they're doing when that happens. It's like this thing that you're socialized to believe is usually a man actually a girl. Surprised, but it's just like annoying that that has to be a reveal like that. There are isn't just like representation of women in roles like that where we would just be like, oh, sure that's a girl because we see that as a woman all the time. Well, and and another bit character that is deeply problematic that appears more in later movies and appears in the musical, to the point where future incarnations of the musical scrubbed this lyric kept in one production I saw in Massachusetts, which was like get rid of it. But anyways, I spoke with the director of the Whole Thing, but the Big bad Wolf in the movie, there's a lot of transphobic jokes at me that character's expense. And even in the musical there's a song like something something something dressed they called me a hot and tranny mess and what was the right and which was in the original musical anno it, but then they took it out because they were just like, Oh, that's fucking nightmare. That's terrible. You can't say that. Um and and that's like kind of what this movie boils down to from a feminist perspective of It's like it's sort of like, oh, the female it's a badass, but just never in a way that is actually threatening or challenging to patriarchal standards. Like she's allowed to kicking her favorite mixed me needs article. She kicks and she gets to fight a little bit, but never in a way that super affects the plot, never in a way that that challenges the heteronormative fairy tale standards of she has to end up with a guy, whether it's the tiny misogynist or the larger misogynist, and that seems like I said, feel it feels so unearned when she's like kicking Robin Hood's ass, because it's like, well, if you could do that, and if you had the agency to do that, why didn't you have the agency to choose your own destiny and like go after what you actually wanted. If marrying a dude is what you want, fine, but like then go out and get it. Like it just it was insane to me that she was so passive and just like literally waiting around to be rescued, because I think I think maybe the writers were focused more on undoing fairy tales in general, but not necessarily doing it in a refreshing way. They're like, fairy tales are still about the damsel and distress, but for them to be like, oh, you know what we're gonna do is just constantly remind do that you're watching a fairy tale getting undone. But we're not quite there yet with being ready to have the female character be the lead or the one that can choose her own adventure, and we're not quite ready for those. Yeah, I think it wasn't ready to like maybe Tangled or Fave or you know, yeah it had to be Moana or yeah, I haven't seen those three films that I just named. Moah, No, I gotta see Moana. I did watch Tangled. I feel like, was she more independent? I don't even I think, But still the guy was a little bit too involved. Okay, okay had to show up. Yeah I remember her being like snippier than regular princesses. But yeah, I think they were still focused on, like people are used to still the idea of like the fairy tale. Let's just make fun of the idea of fairy tale, but it's still patriarchal, you know what I mean? Absolutely. I mean I think that this whole movie is built on and so much of like so much of Shrek, And this goes into this whole thing that I think about a lot because I don't have a life. Um is like, how basically dream Works was this company that was formed to spite Disney, who do these fairy tale stories constantly, and so Shrek was just essentially meant to be a big middle finger from Jeffrey Katzenberg, who produced some really famous Disney like Renaissance movies. UM as a big middle finger to be like, oh look, I did all this great work and then you fucking fire me or whatever. The falling out was there and now I have DreamWorks and now we're just because I fulk you to Disney all the time, and doesn't really take the time to do that in a very thoughtful or interesting way, because even when like Princess Fiona is doing the kick thing and in theory like total just on paper that sounds very cool, but really all that does is earn her respect in the eyes of the men she's traveling with. Other than that, there's not a bit effect on the plot because up until the point, Shrek was like just mostly found her as a nuisance, and then when you see from the ground, he just does that. Even after that happens, but he finds her a total nuisance. And then as soon as he witnesses that whole like fight scene, he's like, well, I'm not going to beat her up anymore. So he does not throw her on the ground. In the musical thank You Very Much Good, I think that that's probably just a sudden, faster thing. She's like, I will not be thrown I'm I'm the Queen of Broadway. I will not be thrown on the ground. I mean, I think this movie, although it does not handle this that well, and I'll explain why in a moment. But the moral of the story, is we already mentioned, is that like, you should judge people based on their character, and you should get to know people before you judge them, and it doesn't matter what you look like, and your important thing is the content of your character. However, one of the reasons they don't really reinforce that in the story is that it's like pretty heavily can firmed that. Like Fiona when she is an ogre, they're like, yeah, you're definitely ugly. She's like, I'm ugly, and Donkey's like, yep, you're You're for sure ugly. And the thing is though, that like she basically looks exactly like she does as a human, except she's green and she's heavier, So they're basically equating being fat to being ugly, which is incredibly problematic. And then on top of that, they do they do that with Trek's character as well. Yeah they do. Yeah, any otherness is not accepted by farads right, and the movie is trying to say, like, no, you can still be ugly and you're you're still you can still be likable, But they're not. I mean, in the end, there's that line where she's like, I thought I was going to be beautiful and trucks like you are beautiful, But it's still sort of like, I think implied that only Shrek could find her beautiful because he's also an ogre, and like she's still not because she doesn't adhere to like western beauty standards were as the whole you are so beautiful, but only to me, because that, to me is what makes it like whoa, why can't you just end it at you are so beautiful? You know? Right? Well? And then what do we think of the ending of sort of it's it's implied, especially in the back half of the movie whence Donkey finds out that Fiona's night form is as an ogre, where he's like, well, Shreks and Ogre, you should hang out with him, where it's like, I don't know, like and this has been on and I don't think originally, you know, it was like eight or nine in this movie, I didn't have the language to articulated. I was like, well, are we to believe? You know? By the end, when Fiona turns out that loves true form for her as she's an ogre if she had been a human with that have not been okay, Like can only like and like belong together in this universe and what does that mean? And like is that that never has sat well with me? Like that just seems like a weird backwards thing to I feel like, um, gay and lesbian people experienced this a lot, where like, like, you're gay, I have a gay friend. You should meet my gay friend. And it's like, well, well if I don't like that, there, yeah they're there. Yeah, there's like a pretty good chance you wouldn't want to date him. But people are just like, oh, because you're both gay, you should hang out, and it's like no, so yeah, runding me of that that happens to people of color to where it's like, oh, you would love my black guy friend. You know he's single to another black girl. You know, oh really quick to like going back to like it's it's it's not what's on the exterior, it's what's on the interior. If that was the case, to like, Shrek in actuality is not very likable, Like he's an asshole. Neither is Fiona. Yeah not either, And so I'm you know, I'm confused about that being the message initially because it's like if I've you know, Shrek, I've known people like Shrek, that's like, no me alone, I'm a grumpy person because like people don't understand me, and so in turn there an asshole. They let tragedy turn them into an asshole, and uh, they are hard to get along with. So I don't know, tell me what I have to hang on to if I'm supposed to fall in love And that's I mean, I think maybe that in terms of the way that masculinity has portrayed a lot in pop culture, that that is sort of a common thing to do. I like, well, he's an asshole because he just doesn't know how to express himself. So you have to accept the fact that he's an asshole to you, usually a female character, because he just doesn't know. He just doesn't know, and you just have to deal with it. And then you got to soften him up, you gotta fix it. Inshol to people who never let sour things turn them sour and are nice. Right, that's an insult to people who are actually nice, even if maybe on the exterior, I don't know, you know what I mean, Like right, like, I think it's it's cutting you know, and no matter you know. Obviously that's not to discount any character or person's experience, but you can't always cut someone that much slack of like, you can't just be an asshole to everybody because you're like so insecure in your masculinity you can't express yourself, you know, or like you had a difficult childhood and that's all valid, and that's all character stuff. But don't be surprised if people don't like you because of it. Right, there should be a consequences for being an ass always, even like Donkey, there's a scene where after they've like gone on the whole journey and Fiona is hanging out with far Quad Donkeys all like, oh, you treat me badly and you undermine me and Doto and all this stuff, and shreks like why are you still hanging around then, which is a legitimate question because like Donkey, why are you letting this person emotionally abuse you? And Donkey's like, because that's what friends are for. They forgive each other, which like feels like a wrong message to send to people. It's like, if someone's like being abusive torn you maybe don't forgive them. If that's if it's their character to be a complete fucking asshole. I would argue the more powerful, the most powerful relationship in this movie is Shrek and Donkey and in the musical. But it's like Shrek and Donkey have more songs together the Shrek and Fiona do with the musical. Dude, but whatever, I mean. But but there is more emphasis placed on I guess Shrek and Fiona's relationship is more integral to the plot, but in terms of characterization, it's way more Shrek and Donkey, if like they have you know these Originally Shrek rejects him and he's like, no, I'm fun, It's okay, you can come, and then they have a falling out, and then they have a reunion, and then it's like there's just more in general. So I don't know. I hadn't thought of that until I watched it this last time, watching specifically for how female characters are treated. And granted, you know, Shrek and Fiona have a falling out, but it's based on a misunderstanding and then he sells her, only to return and marry her without her ever saying wait, you sold me because you got mad and you didn't even ask me what I did, Like that should be a problem, right of like you overheard something and then you sold me to a hitler, Like what are you doing? You know? But she's like, no, you're right. The son's about to set let's marry right, right, Like, let's make out he didn't remember the Donkey Donkey actually apologizing to He goes like, because friends forgive each other, and then yeah, and then Shrek says he forgives Donkey, but like, I don't really know what Donkey did wrong besides just getting close with Fiona. I don't know. I think it was because Donkey didn't tell Shrek because he promised Fiona he wouldn't tell. Oh, it's part of the misunderstanding. He Shrek was all like, oh, they're buddy, buddy, and they're ganging up on me, and but like that's not what was happening. So if Donkey did apologize, he didn't need to to this point of like, which goes back to the point of like, that's a weird that is the weird message to give. Let's if kids are watching this and going like, oh, that's how it should be a friend. If they wronged me, I apologize and I should forgive anyway, even if I didn't do anything wrong, I don't know. I don't know what the demographic is of this film. I mean it's more it's pretty wide. Well it's kids and adults. Like there was enough like adult humor that adults can appreciate it if you're the lowest common denominator, yeah, small penis jokes and stuff, right, yeah, I mean like that's and this is another like DreamWorks movie thing where there's what happens in DreamWorks movies, but this is like the first very successful one where this movie is like pushing post modern drugs to the point where, for the most part, this movie, in theory is for kids. You can bring your kids to see it because most of the drugs will fly over their head. But to the point where it's like do these kids even know what is being riffed on? Like do they know the source material of these four billion fairy tales? And do they know? And you know, so it is made more for stupid adults who don't have a sorry, people who love his movie but like you know, don't have a developed enough brain to laugh at anything other than like I heard that, I've heard of that. I've heard it because that's oh my god a song. It's funny because the ogre thing of the song, like there's just so little thought put into any joke. It's infuriating. It's and then another note on the comedy is that like Shrek is always cracking drunks, they're not that funny, but at least he's like making jokes. Man Donkey is by and large like the comic relief of the movie. Even far Quad gets some like funny moments. Fiona like, she doesn't get any funny a lot. I feel like none of the comedy in the movie is given to her, Like she's never given an opportunity to make people laugh except for maybe the one the nod to like the matrix thing where she's like which is another but like, yeah, there's just she doesn't get any well. Her character sucks. She's like a brat, she's entitled, she's passive. This movie does a little bit more than other movies in terms of like showing why the two characters might like each other, but it's all very superficial stuff where it's like, oh, they both burp and they both like to and again that's her earning his respect by being more like him. Right, being more like a man is. She's like, let me take this snake and turn it into a trick called dick balloon Fionta. So yeah, I don't like her character in any way, and the attempts at the movie does make it like because so often you see in a movie where it's like a man is a lead and he has a love interest, and you're never really sure why they'd be interested in each other because the female characters usually so poorly developed that it makes no sense why they would end up together. But like, she's hot, so he likes her, and that's good enough. I think the movie does a little bit tiny more than most movies to develop that romantic relationship, but it's still not enough, so I think, and I think it is interesting just a quick acknowledgement of how Shrek has aged into now where largely except with children and adults who saw it when they were stupid and have not gotten smarter or more critically thinking since two thousand and one, which God help those people. But there's been this huge subculture that's developed if people making fun of Shrek for how derivative and lame, and you know, just a movie that really takes pleasure on feeling very cutting edge while accomplishing nothing, you know, And there's this whole subculture for it online and some of them at this point it's pretty much extinct, and that's good. But you know, like I'm sure some of our listeners would recognize the Shrek is Love, Shrek is Life video those and like all these I'll show them to you. They're gonna I don't know about these, Dang, they're going to bloil your mind. There was this there's this PC game that came out around the time Shrek the movie did, and people found it maybe ten to twelve years after the movie came out, and started making these very bizarre sketches using the Shrek characters, um that were very like hyper sexual and demonized Trek and condemned the character. And and sometimes they're very funny. Sometimes they were too dark and like don't want those ones. Um. There's also a subculture for Jimmy Neutron as well. But anyways, all that to say, Shrek, I would argue, is not a movie that has aged well and anyway and kind of in a in a in a pop culture way, hasn't been as accepted down in the line. I mean Shrek five is going to make a million dollars, but it's not going to have as many only a million dollars. That's terrible for me. Sorry, billion, a billion, trillion. It's gonna make ten times with boss baby mate or that you much in are the EMI movie probably feminist icon the EMGI um but um. But you know, all I have to say, like Shrek five will and this is not saying a lot, but probably be more conscientious of its audience than I would Shrek that came out two months before nine eleven, you know, like it really was just like, yeah, what was subversive in two thousand and one is deeply problematic. Now, yeah, right, I'll show you Shrek his live Shrek is Life. I'm excited to see that. Yeah. Does anyone have any other final thoughts about the movie? I don't think so. I'm gonna watch two, three, four, and five. I guess the musical musical because besides them having kids and him meeting her parents and maybe finding about his his parents, I don't know. Maybe it'll be cool to see like the fifth one be like his daughter, Shrek Woke, Shrek Girl, Shrek Girl, Shrek All Female reboot of Shrek yeah, something you're Shrek falls in love with Fiona non or like maybe it doesn't fallinary just trying to get a job and it's hard. Yeah. Yeah, a female Shrek tries to negotiate a salary is the salary. But also also I did one more thing to throw in for Shrek three, the only Shrek movie I have not seen. It turns out that came out in No. Seven and already the Shrek culture was so such a joke that Tim and Eric were the first people to jump on promoting Shrek three as a great It's been a joke for well over ten years now. Um, and I would recommend watching the Tim and Eric Shrek three promovid this one because they were issued a cease and desist. That's amazing. Let us discuss whether or not the movie passes the Buchtel test. Sure, no, not sorry, there were there even on any opportunities when were two women in the same scene. I mean in the beginning, when all the fairytale creatures are in Shreks swamp, there are like a few fairy godmothers. Uh, there's no white but she is unconscious. Oh that's the other thing I wanted to say. End at the wedding. Oh yeah, at the end. So you see her in the beginning in like the like glass casket thing, sleeping unconscious, so she can't talk um. In the end though, she and Cinderella flap each other whenever Fiona is trying to throw okay, yeah, perpetuating that like do they talk or do they just they do not speak each other because they want the book so bad, because because that means they want to they'll getting married next god damn it. And then first of all, I want to know that, well someone, she's probably kissing her consensually. You cannot have consent when you're in a coma. That's what we need. A gro shop. We've all seen kill Bill. Yeah, no, you will get what she she attacks with her mouse Aristotle. Snow White comes back in later Shrek movies. Right, she comes back in Shrek three. I don't know, she's in the trailer for three, so she keeps coming. I mean that she's not represented better and and granted, with snow White, you're presented with an uphill battle for a moment one sure, especially whenever Lord Farquad finds like the magic mirror on the wall and he's like, how do I become a king, and he's like, you got to marry one of these princesses. So he does this whole like Bachelor at number one, something like Cinderella is a mentally abused shut in whose hobbies are cooking and cleaning for her two evil sisters. First of all, probably not have hobbies. Yeah, at least say sudn't believe it. I don't know. But then like it's kind of like it's like shaming her for it, like she's on her fault that she used abused. But they're like, oh, she's not a viable cannon because she's been abused by men. And then they talk about snow white. The joke is, even though she loves with seven other men, she's not easy. And then just kiss her dad frozen lips and find out what a live wire she is. Or don't kiss a sleeping, unconscious woman. Don't ever do that. Yeah, and then it's sort of presented or this is was my read of the scene that far Quad is pressured by the people, you know, his like thugs or whatever around him to choose Fiona because she's the least damaged sounding of the three. But then the mirror is like, but also, wait, I should tell you that thing that at that point coming up in forty five minutes, you know. And and so he chooses her because she sounds like the least bogged down by her circumstances that are not her fault. But that's not even true, you know, I hate it. Oh. The other thing I wanted to point out is that Shrek rescues Fiona a night passes. The next day, like they got off to a rocky start, he keeps throwing her on the ground. It The next day she kills a bird with her voice and then steals the bird. She steals the eggs and like cooks them. And her way of like making a nice gesture to be like, hey, let's make amends is to cook them food he cooks for her later. True, like the weed rat weed rats. Right, So I let that go on the basis that he reciprocated it. Okay, that's fair. But I was just like, oh, she's doing good domestic chore, right, and maybe in you know, she probably conditioned to think that's what you should do, right, right. I wondered where she would cook in that that space she was in for so long. Yeah, did she have access to a kitchen. Well, in the musical, she says she had a hot plate. Okay, good, I mean I worry about these things in a chamber poto. Oh no, no she yeah, she says I had no toilet. That was a lot. Well, it sounds like the musical I answered a lot of questions I have about you gotta watch it. Uh so. Yeah, the movie does not pass the back to test. Doesn't even come close. There are never in the same scene at any point. Let's write the movie on her nipple scale zero five nipples based on its portrayal of women. I'm going to give it like a one like. It does not do well for me. Between her only ambition is to fall in love with a man and be rescued by him. Doesn't matter even who it is. She's just like, I just need a man to save me and kiss me. That's really her only ambition pretty much throughout, and eventually you know, she finds someone who she might like, even though like are they compatible? I don't know. That remains her whole goal throughout the movie. And Shrek is a misogynst piece of ship. Donkey isn't much better the treatment and women is just bad. Yeah, it's no there's no getting around it. So one nipple it belongs to donkey weird because I like to give animal. Okay, I'm gonna red like Jalen like another one on his chest. I wonder how many nipples donkeys have? Do they have stay tuned for donkeys? I don't even know how that works. Is it for Trude? More if you're a certain donkey right to teeths on Google and she didn't say two nipples, one donkey teeth kitalin here panda nipple on the donkey, I'm gonna have to say I give it a one too, because even though it's the old tale of you know, the princess needs to get married and that's her one thought, it's also motivated by her looks. Because if I do it that I don't, I don't have to be an ogre anymore at night. So it's just like an extra one to punch into into my nipples. And that one nipple I will put on. I guess far quad is that you see his nipple in the movie he's like sitting in bed topless, remember that. Yeah, it's when he's like reh, he's probably jerking off because it's when he's looking at the magic mirror on the wall and he's like, show me again, and it like rewinds, just like a picture of her, and he's like in his bed, not wearing a shirt, jerking too. Yeah, um, remember that character you see? And I think, no, the mirror, the mirror. I think the mirror is in snow white. And I saw that too because I was like, shouldn't it be a female character? But but I tried to go that's why he was. He was saying those things about the princesses. Something I could have subverted but chose not to, chose not to or It's not like they're like, hey, should we subvert this or not. They probably didn't even think of it. They're probably just like, well, well, my friends a guy, I would like to give him a job. I'm gonna put the nipple on them there actually right, So, speaking as a as as a woman who has been sexually rejected by a far quad and a local production at the musical, I'd like to give this movie one nipple in terms of its female portrayal and in terms of how it's uh far quads respond to twenty two year old women sexually interested in them. Uh No, But I mean, it's just there's no there's no getting around it. There's no really redeeming female character. So it's even worse than most movies we encounter where you know, a popular summer movie usually includes one female character who might be great and have has agency, but there's no one for her to talk to. Not only is there no one for Fiona to talk to, but her character is completely half baked as well. Uh that said, watch Shrek the Musical. Uh, there's a really there's literally a lot of amazing work done. I encourage you to foster Shrek feminism of your own, reclaim what Shrek has denied you. Yes, indeed, yes, um, and I will give I will give my nipple to Sutton Foster as Princess Fiona and Shrek the Musical. Sure. Yeah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, thank you so much for having me. Certainly, where can people follow you online? You can find me at Otsco Comedy, on Instagram, Twitter, I'm on all the all the platforms. On the platforms, just it'll pop up. If you start typing my very Japanese, um, just a T s U k O, it'll pop up. She's very searchical. You can follow us on all the platforms well, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and go to our website back toolcast dot com. For sure you can find upcoming live shows, including our one year anniversary live show at the Nerds show Room at Meltdown Comics. How did you get that? Oh? I don't know. Maybe program director of that venue and Dante. Maybe she put that show up where I don't know. Uh So check that out. It's on December two at seven pm. Details forthcoming specially guest special movie will for Billina be there. I haven't talked about Alfred Millina all day. God, okay, well, Alfred Millina, I don't care what he was doing at this time. He was like, I'm too, I don't I don't funk with DreamWorks. I think that's what Alfred Mallina would say, for sure, just putting words in his dignified talented mountain. Also watch Rat Teens on the Cafe streaming platform is my new cartoon about teenage rats. It's wonderful, Thank you and um Happily ever After.