From Esquire CEO to Dancing With Life: From Long Poor Saṃsāra to Luang Por Sumedho | Phillip Moffitt

Greetings and good evening everyone.
Welcome to Wednesdays with Clear
Mountain. This evening we're very happy
to have our guest Philip Moffett with
us. Philip, thank you for joining us.
>> Glad to be here.
>> All right, so I'll just read a quick bio
of Philip for those of you who don't yet
know him. So, Philip Moffett is a
veteran terraata meditation teacher with
over 25 years of teaching experience. A
former co-guiding teacher at Spirit Rock
Meditation Center, Philip is the founder
of the Life Balance Institute, the
co-founder of Dharma Ground, and the
originating teacher of the naturally
arising practice method. His own path
has been shaped by his primary teachers,
the venerable Lumpor Sumido, the
venerable Beiguanalio, Joseph Goldstein,
and Sharon Salsberg. He is the author of
three influential books, Dancing with
Life, Emotional Chaos to Clarity, and
Awakening Through the Nine Bodies.
And we're hoping to go through a number
of uh those books and those programs.
And um yeah, Philip thought to just
maybe start by mentioning something
which wasn't in that bio, which is that
you in the 80s were the CEO and
editor-inchief of Esquire magazine and
then at age 40 kind of gave it all up to
pursue all of the things that we did
mention in that bio. Um so could you
just speak a little bit about that
transition? How did that come about? How
did you decide to leave and what did you
what was your crash landing into the
dharma or was it smoother than a crash?
>> So, uh it's a it's a story with lots of
funny moments in it and so um but that
would take more time. I was um I was
when I was 23 and just did just started
a a my first magazine. I uh at
simultaneously got introduced to yoga
and uh the the the in the you know west
in the northern part of India with the
Himalayan mountains and that kind of
yoga that where they people you know
teachers lived in caves and sort of the
genuine version of all this. And um then
I uh at uh age at age 30 I had I I was
actually uh at at the ashram and I had a
vision that I should leave the world and
I with no thought then what's going to
happen next. The vision didn't go any
further though. You should not be in the
marketplace Philip.
And so I I went I I went returned to my,
you know, uh office and I told the
people that I worked with, you know, I'm
going to leave and you can stay and I'll
leave you the company, but I'm going to
leave. And they said, well, no, if
you're leaving, we want to leave, too.
We had to sell the company. And uh so I
I found I found a buyer of the company,
a Canadian company, and I was going to
have just enough money. so that I didn't
have to work but I could go to back to
graduate school halfime and halftime be
at the ashram and that was my vision and
then I realized right before signing the
contract almost literally like few days
that wait a minute wait a minute this is
not this is not
>> this isn't grounded enough this is this
is this is going to lead to endless
wandering without having a ground from
which you are wandering a ground of you
if you follow me because as as you as
you both know a wise a wise view is
really essential in the path. And
>> so I backed out of that and then uh to
have uh I was not sufficiently motivated
by money to just stay in the marketplace
for money. So I would I was looking for
something to do that would kind of
justify my being there. I needed a
cause, something of meaning and and I
realized that Esquire was close to dying
because it had been taken in a direction
that its readers did not want and it was
really in trouble. Was in much more
trouble than I'd understood. I would not
have taken this on. So I did I took it
on. I was I was 33 at the time and um
never had had a paid magazines that I
was doing. had done information
magazines and I I announced myself as
the new owner to the editor-inchief to
all these editors and they're looking at
who is this guy you know and from that
uh from that uh I had a vision of
bringing back the traditional version of
the magazine which had uh great literary
articles and uh and great investigative
reporting and so forth and It it took a
a few years, which I almost ran out of
money first, very close. Uh, but I I did
finally manage to get it turned around.
And when I knew it was successful, I was
sitting in my apartment in New York
editing a manuscript. And one of those
intuitional feelings that comes to me
through my body, it's very strong. And
it appears down at my feet and it kind
of comes up like head. I was going, "No,
I don't want this. Whatever it is, I
don't want to know what let me have."
And the the feeling that that came to me
is Philillip, you do not belong in the
marketplace. You must leave.
>> I was going, but I just they don't even
know I'm going to be successful yet that
I've done it. I want to stay and enjoy
this. I really wanted that. I really
wanted just to be regular. You know what
I mean by regular? I wanted I just
wanted to be having normal success. I'd
done something that everybody deemed
impossible and I wanted to live in it,
you know. No, no.
And so then I I thought, okay, I'll
leave in a year. But it took me three
years
>> to leave
>> in part because I felt obligated to my
investors and I wanted to make sure the
magazine was really stable and that I
got it a a home where they would take
care of it because I my whole purpose
had been to, you know, to revitalize in
a great institution and I'd done that
and I didn't want to have it go back
down. So it was complicated but there
was also just a lot of resistance
because to a person that I sought advice
about leaving they all said don't
don't I I even went to a a union analyst
one of the more famous ones and I told
him a dream and and I told him what I
was considering and uh and so I told him
this dream he said well what that dream
means that you should should not leave
So that was the uh that was the
resistance and I left anyway. I I I
finally I was I just turned 40, just
turned 40 and I I was sitting and in and
a collection of other people of my ilk
and I heard myself say, "Well, this
isn't so bad." And hearing those words
so upset me.
It really upset me because this is how
you compromise and you never follow your
deeper intuition, your heart, whatever
you it comes for each of us differently.
I had intuition first, heart second.
Some people would have heart first and
intuition the other way. And so uh I
immediately and I I sold the company
within of that was like early October
and by December 31st the company was
sold and that's almost impossible
because of all the legal stuff and all
this but then there I was and but I had
no plan once again that this thing of
Philip you don't belong in the
marketplace doesn't ever did not give me
any direction
>> and so then I I spent
a number of years and I called it being
available and that's where I first
started using that idea and I said I I
will not have some idea and implement an
idea again. I will wait for something to
rise up from the earth. It's cathonic.
They would describe that from the earth,
earthy. And instead of having a big
vision, I would have some strong feeling
inside, some that had intuition with it.
And that's what I would do. And I had
been uh I I'd started Buddhist
meditation
uh four years earlier. And so I was I
was thinking that uh that my meditation
practice was going to be primarily terod
Buddhism. But I didn't I' had not yet
met Joseph and Sharon. I didn't have a
teacher and uh um you know I I was kind
of an odd duck to be in the world.
And that's how it all started. And then
when I met Joseph, I I knew instantly
that I'd found somebody that I could
trust,
>> you know.
And what
what year was that Philip that you met
Joseph?
>> Oh my goodness. Probably when I was uh
43
maybe something like that.
>> Okay, Philip, I um your description of
how intuitions come to you from the
ground up. I I love that and it reminds
me of a quote in Sedartha. Um you know
the delicious book that's actually in a
lot of ways a little orthogonal to the
Buddhist message strictly speaking. Um
but uh this idea I think he says that
you know what people call magic. I'm I'm
like a stone. I'll just drop straight to
the uh bottom of like where where my
weight or my trajectory is. not let
anything enter my heart um apart from
what you know my my key aim is and for
you this this kind of space of holding
still long enough that you could let an
intuition really rise um I think that's
a really important
way to to learn to hold oneself and and
not easily done and it also aligns with
your first step in the naturally arising
practice method and we actually just to
bring it down to something very
practical. Um we're hoping you could
kind of just give us a brief guided
meditation with the this first part of
the naturally arising practice method.
And um this is uh arriving in the
present moment, becoming available to
the felt sense of the present moment and
aligning with our aspirations within the
dharma, which is very much what you're
describing on this broader scale. But
would you take us through doing this
just at the beginning of a sit? I'm
happy to do that. And for uh those of
you who are participating with us, you
can keep your eyes open if that's makes
you feel safer or whatever. But uh the
invitation is to close your eyes and do
as you would uh see fit.
You'll hear the bell starting us.
Arriving.
Arriving in the here and the now.
Arriving in this moment.
Here being wherever you are in physical
location in outer existence
and arriving in your inner structure,
your inner being.
Mindfulness front and center.
Mindfulness in the surround. Mindfulness
at every sense gate. You're inviting
this mindfulness. You're establishing
yourself in mindfulness in order to be
available to the moment, in order to
have choice.
Feel the wholesomeness of this
intention.
to intend to be present in a way that
you have choice to recognize and then to
choose non-suffering over suffering.
You may notice that you are feeling
present that you can feel what's
happening to you in this moment.
It's immediate. You know you're present
when you are able to determine what you
is naturally arising in the mind just
now.
And you're present with it. You are in
the here and the now.
So satisfying just to have established
mindfulness
to be present in your own life
and then naturally naturally arising
availability occurs when we're present.
That means we are available to knowing
directly the experience our external
experience and our internal experience.
So available available
being willing to stand under the first
noble truth of whatever arises.
When you're available in this manner,
then the moment becomes available to
you.
So you cease to be simply
a kind of uh helpless observer
or recipient of the experience.
But you can actually dance with life
because you are being available.
Therefore, the moment is available to
you. So you have choice that starts to
appear.
It's important that you recognize this.
We are trained to be more reactive and
responsive.
But in this practice method, we are
cultivating being responsive.
What does that mean? That you respond
based on your values, not respond
whether it's pleasant or unpleasant.
You are choosing to live life in a
conscious way. Intentional
mindfulness and intention
travel together. Two of the eight-fold
path.
This being available when you have more
time with it becomes such a rich
experience in itself
you start to feel an aliveness.
It's this wonderful thing of the
impersonal is so strong and yet you find
yourself having a very uh personal
experience of the impersonal.
As you stay,
which we don't have time to do, so I'm
shortening all of this. We stay with
being available. We start to be able to
see for ourselves that the ego mind is
just not strong enough.
It needs something larger to both
protect it from as the mind getting more
concentrated. It can get concentrated
around a a daydream, a lust daydream or
remembering something that makes you
bitter. that it's the concentrated mind
is without without a higher purpose is
capable of concentrating on anything.
And so we realize directly naturally
arising insight for the need for a kind
of protection of the mind's tendencies
from the mind's tendencies and also
an inspiration from from something
larger than what the ego might want.
And that is what the purpose of arriving
is.
So arriving, we're available and now we
align. We align with whatever it is
within Buddhism since we we're as
Buddhist, but it could be if you're a
Christian, what inspires you as a
Christian, it's something that uplifts.
So the the Buddha may inspire you in
this way or the Dharma
or the SA or all three
or maybe loving kindness
or compassion
or wise view and wise intention.
Something that you really know so you're
familiar with it. It's not a vague idea
but something that you can touch with
your heart.
You can try more than one thing. Just
notice when you have a felt sense
response.
That's when it's working. That's when
it's alive responding.
There will come a moment when you feel
that oh it's true I am aligned I have
been touched inspired lifted up by this
at that moment you are available and
aligned
Some of you may be feeling this now.
Others may feel the potential of it.
Others may go, "Nothing's happening for
me." Those are all perfectly fine
responses. Each of them, this available,
aligned, you get a whiff of it. You get
a hint of it.
It grows and develops in you. Just the
slightest inkling,
just a little taste of it. A mind that
is available and aligned but has not yet
turned to objects of meditation.
So grounding.
As you practice this in a very short
period of sits, you come to have some
feeling of this being available and
aligned.
It is an inward staying.
Reference
key inward staying. The mind is knowing
knowing.
Knowing is the knowing and knowing is
the subject of the knowing.
It's unentangled with objects that arise
in the mind. They may be there in the
background, but your focus is so steady.
So steady
because this available aligned brings a
naturally arising
collected and unified mind.
And from this point
unencumbered
mindfulness
collected and unified we turn to the
sati patanas
the four uh baskets or foundations of
mindfulness the Buddha taught
and The first taught that we turn to is
the body.
The body just as it is.
So you might start with posture
or you might first feel the the sense of
sensations in the body or you may feel
the body parts
and so forth. The Buddha gave more
instructions for being an awareness of
the body than with any of the other
satipanas.
And one of them is the elementary nature
of the body.
And so we turn to the earth element.
There's an earth element, a wind
element, a fire element, a water
element. And we first turn to the water
to the to the ground to the earth
element.
We turn to the earth element
and we start to notice
through skin
through flesh and all that's contained
in flesh down to the bones.
And we can feel that in the pelvic bowl,
your own sitting, wherever you're
sitting or lying down.
Feeling your pelvis, the pelvic bowl,
the bones that constituted
hard, firm, heavy earth element. Earth
element.
Earth element.
And the leg bones, the upper leg bones,
hard firm, heavy
earth element, earth element being known
here and now.
The direct experience of earth element.
Then if you will please invite the earth
element in your body to rest on earth.
We wait under side
as a release as you have a an intention
of this because our our relationship to
earth is gravity. So when we get out of
the way that naturally resting on earth
is available
just trust it act as though
that the earth element becomes our
object of meditation.
You're knowing the body through the
earth element.
And what are the characteristics that we
may notice
that there's a relative stillness to the
earth element?
This grounded feeling
manifest
and it's a steadiness. There's a
steadiness to the earth element
and the mind starts to mirror
that stillness and that steadiness.
And in this way
the earth elements serves as such a
wonderful
subject
for meditation and object of meditation.
The mind gets more and more still, more
and more steady,
more collected and unified.
And you could spend the whole practice
right here.
If we are going to go on, we would uh
open our attention to the wind element.
The wind element which we know most
frequently as breath. Many wind elements
in the body, but breath is one.
And so with the object of the stillness
and steadiness of the earth element, we
notice the contrast with the wind
element which is always moving.
So the earth element may stay in the
background.
It's kind of a a a earth wind
experience.
But in time the earth feeling might
drive drop away or not.
And this is the next object that you
could choose for your meditation.
You can feel the beginning have a felt
sense of the beginning of the inhale
its duration
and its sessation.
Maybe a pause,
maybe not. And then the beginning of the
exhale,
its duration,
its sessation.
What characterizes the wind element is
movement.
Movement. Just as stillness characterize
the earth element.
But something incredible is happening.
Your attention is staying steady,
staying still on a moving object that's
ever changing.
This makes the wind element much more
interesting
because it's always changing.
The ana is being felt
and can be received with steady
attention.
So you're now developing a more
sophisticated and more uh flexible
attention. It does not have to be on a
unchanging object.
And with these two which I call the
second and third grounds that when
you've arrived and available that's the
first ground earth is second and this is
third
and you can go wherever you wish in your
practice staying here exploring the
different dimensions of consciousness
while utilizing the sati patana for
doing that or having the satipanas be
first and foremost and utilizing the
dimensions of consciousness
to have a deeper penetration of what the
Buddha was teaching in each of those.
Notice the studying. Notice your
availability.
Availability
and aligning stays with you in this
practice method
to such great benefit
here and now.
Thank you, Phillip.
I needed that.
Nice. Yeah, we should uh have 20 minute
guided meditations arriving in all our
uh our interviews. Um that was great. I
think that is a great uh segue. Although
it's it's not even away. It's you we're
grounded right there. But um yeah, the
first time that I heard about you,
Philip, was um Ajan Amro uh in 2007 or
2008 was had begun reading your book
Dancing with Life uh to the community to
the monastic and the light community at
Aiger. I'm not sure if it was an actual
print copy or if it was a manuscript but
uh Lumpur Samato had written the
introduction to that and I just remember
being very impressed because you know
there is a lot of talk around suffering
there but uh I feel like your
formulation in that book uh which also
these 12 aspects of the forable truths
which maybe we'll get into but are part
of the uh naturally arising method that
you teach. uh I felt like you taught
them very well and accessibly for a uh
for lay people you know who maybe don't
have as much of a renunciate bent and
maybe just the framing around suffering
is is a bit much um but I did also I
feel like your the guided meditation
there's also a really good bridge into
the nine bodies which is kind of the
second round of me hearing and learning
about you once we moved to Seattle we
just kept hearing about nine bodies,
Philip Moffett, you know, of course,
Terry Salah and Cheryl and Joticara Kim,
you know, many people who have sat your
retreats and gotten a lot of benefit out
of it. And you know, in the forest
tradition, a big part of our practice
really is that first satya of knowing
the body as a body uh in all the
different ways that the Buddha teaches
that. So I remember being fascinated by
just hearing this term nine bodies and
one of our actually our current
president lent me your book nine bodies
and I remember going through it once and
I think I've read it again and I've read
parts of it multiple times and I'll just
I'll name the nine and then I'm curious
if we can just have a little bit of back
and forth and hear more about uh as many
of those as we can go into because it's
fascinating. So split up into three
sections of three. The first is the
three sets uh on the coarse body. So the
coarser physical body, you've got the
vital body, you've got the emotional
body. Then the next three are part of
what's called the subtle body. And that
is the uh
>> etheric body, the astral body and the
intuitional body. And the final three
are what are called the causal bodies.
And that is the spiritual body, the
divine body, and the cosmic body. And
yeah, that physical body was really what
you were beginning to lead us into at
least certainly the the earth aspect. Um
and then also with the the second body
of the vital body, you know, you give in
your um appendix translations of the
original Sanskrit and the Sanskrit for
that second body is the prana maya or
the the sarira the body that's made maya
out of prana and in pale you know our
terra language that's pana which can
mean life but it can also mean breath.
So you were leading us from the physical
body into the breath body which is this
vital body and yeah I would love for you
to say more about uh either one or both
of those first two bodies.
Oh, well, let me start by saying that
there is only one consciousness and
these dimensions of consciousness.
Imagine that you have that that we we're
plugged into life with this amazing cord
and it's made up of all of these
different cords that are all they're all
not just wrapped around each other, but
there's like all these nerve endings
that they're all they're just totally
merged in that way. And so we look at
the individual uh dimensions so that we
can uh that we because we're having
those are all lighting up for us anyway.
But if we don't notice it then we can
miss much of what's happening. And when
you're more still in meditation because
in my experience, people often have uh
very strong experiences that are that
are reference experiences for them in
one or more of these bodies, but they
don't know that is dimensions.
dimensions. We can call them dimensions
or capacities or aspects of and um the
noticing that what happened to me was
that I uh again for whatever set of
karmic reasons uh I would my mind would
get still and
in meditations I mostly sat six week
retreats and sometimes a three month a
few 10 days but I six weeks seemed to be
my sweet spot. And I did this for years.
And I I would go into my teachers and I
would say, you know, I was sitting there
and I my mind was very concentrated and
and it it was in a space. It was in a
mind space. I know it was in a mind
space. And so the question is what
should I do? And the answer would be be
mindful of it. And that was a good
answer. But it did not I felt like ships
passing in the night that we weren't you
know we weren't in communication because
it clearly
you know these mind states allowed for
for refinements different kind of refine
refinements of mindfulness of knowing
take how you could relate to the object
and so this went on for years and then
when I encountered uh in India you know
giving credit here uh because I don't
want to take his mind. So I was taught
and uh then I so I was I was I was
presented with this map and I instantly
recognized that it was accurate. Was it
the perfect map? I don't think like
that. It was a good enough map to help
me. And then as it's turned out it's
been a good enough map to help a lot of
people and very very grateful for that.
and uh somewhat surprised at the uh
people even with a minimum amount of uh
of of meditials
retreats uh can start to utilize it.
That really took me by surprise and it
so it became part of what I was already
developing in this naturally arising
which I had not yet named naturally
arising. uh and uh uh and so the the the
the uh three levels of the the you know
the gross level or the the the course
level or I call it the manifest level
these days of of the of the physical
body and the vital body and the
emotional body. Those are those three
dimensions that has in way even before
the Buddha there was a that that level
was identified as was the subtle energy
level as was the uh this uh causal level
that's an old old teaching and this was
just a the
came after the person taught it to me it
sat for three and a half days without
getting up and this was the vision that
came uh as he was awakening to after
three and a half days to regular world
and he this is what he saw and he he
therefore said he was no longer swami he
was he was spiritual only he could not
have an identity anymore like that so
for that was the background of this and
what what you find is that uh it gives
you it gives you confidence
it's you can't separate it from the
natural arising because I that you know
I get you and to uh this whole practice
delivers you to yourself you know and
and then you can do it on your own once
you've had you know once you've had a
few rounds of taking this through and I
think that people with meditation
experience quite a bit of it could
easily like you guys just didn't you
didn't need any instruction at all you
had enough.
So um so then then what what uh uh the
the ones what most interests people uh
is the idea of the energy dimensions you
know but when they actually start
practicing
they get this uh relationship to the
physical body that the Buddha was
pointing to that they had not they they
had not quite gotten it. And uh to me
knowing the body and the body means
knowing that there is awareness. This is
a body that is involves embodied
awareness. And that's why when the
Buddha was ask where does the earth end,
where does fire end, where does and he
says in this fathom long body it's for
that reason that it is in the awareness
that's embodied and the body the
physical body becomes instrument for
knowing that for clarifying for us for
waking us up and then the vital body is
uh the the your prana your chi just like
you were saying in terms of that the
terraoden
meaning of that that prana the breath,
all of this. And uh it is literally the
life force. Literally the life force.
And when you become aware of your life
force, you can see if your practice is
supporting the life force or draining
the life force.
You you can see that uh uh that uh like
with the emotional body which is um uh
this is the hardest one of all of the
bodies that is in the in the gross and
subtle levels to understand the the body
of the dimension of emotions is that
capacity. People associate that that the
emotional body must mean okay my my my
happiness or my sadness or my worry and
they that's the body. No, that's the the
the emotional dimension of consciousness
is like a huge ocean of potential. Huge
ocean of potential. And that your
happiness, your sadness, your worry,
your your longing, those are different
waves of emotion arising out of this
ocean of potential. Some of the waves
are big, some are not so big. and uh uh
just finished an eight teaching an 8 day
retreat and uh uh at one point I did uh
an hourlong meditation on the emotional
dimension because people were saying oh
I don't have strong emotions or I don't
have any emotions and I I just
destructed that whole
thing so that we did that because the
emotional body
we we have such complicated
relationships in the west around our
emotional capacity and it is so worth
being mindful of. You can see so much
clinging that starts right there. So
much hesitation to open to the dharma
from right there in the emotional body.
So it is very useful to become familiar
with that and you can even deliberately
choose to sit there in the emotional
body while you follow the breath or you
could follow any object of meditation
from any of these bodies. So that's the
emotional body. And then the the what I
recommend to people is that if that if
they want to go to this to get to the
subtle energetic bodies, this dimensions
that we all have that we all know that
there's you can feel your own subtlety.
So that's not it's not this is not like
a shocking thing. and and the atheric
that the the atheric has a uh it's the
spaciousness
akash
>> that's
>> yeah and um and that that that is
actually the subtle life force that is
bringing the the grosser life force into
the vital body. So I that the source of
the chi the all this is is this subtle
energy and there's subtle energy before
there's the manifest because we are
first of all energetic creatures you
know that because of energy this
movement life is movement and and that's
the subtle energy in my experience I'm
not I don't know I think most scientists
would agree with this but I don't know
never ask uh but that that is one the
it's got the spaciousness
and that energy. Those are the two of
the many characteristics of this
dimension of our consciousness. And it
includes the the uh subtle heart this
where the the the the subtlety of our of
our heart feelings is is right there. So
when when Ajan Sashito talks about that
it's the heart that is really liberated
in the end
uh that is that is that is that release
there in the subtle body of the heart
and uh so uh if you're going to start
with this as a practice I first of all I
recommend just doing the the physical
and the vital and the emotional for
months and then then add the etheric and
really stay there till you really feel
like you know the atheric.
>> That's the way I would recommend it.
>> Thank you. And I actually do want if we
have time to either now or on the Zoom
session to kind of dive into how people
can work with the emotional body because
you're right, it's such a interesting
ocean to to try to navigate.
And I really don't want to miss the
chance to just touch on those latter
those those middle three of the atheric,
the astral and the intuitional because I
think one of the reasons your nine
bodies has been so fascinating is we all
sense that we need more language for
what people experience and you know you
speak about the atheric body I think
about um you know the picture of the
fourth Janna is a person draped in white
cloth um whereas the earlier Jas are
kind of pervaded the water and it feels
like there's this motion in Dowism I
think they reference shen which is this
like luminous mind quality that shines
out of the eyes in attained beings. Um
so I'm just kind of curious um would you
speak about those three a little more?
Um the atheric, the astral and the
intuitional
where um it sounds like the kind of
quality of knowing is the athetheric. Um
does the intuitional body is that where
those deep intuitions come from? Um how
just can you give us a little more uh of
those?
>> So the the atheric
uh again it can be you you go to the you
go to the atheric through the vital
because you've already got that energy
and that movement through the the breath
and then you just get more and more
subtle with the breath and you this
reflection. Well, okay. What is breath
but movement? Okay. Well, what is
movement but energy
>> and and so then you get in that's how
you get it. That's like the little
bridgeway and that you can go directly
by just inclining the mind that way or
you can go through feeling the more and
more refinement. And then the aetheric
that the atheric uh has uh it's like the
container of the manifest realm
>> and uh it's it's direct and it's so
imagine that the the intuitional is the
uh as I have understood and experienced
this it is the most refined state that
that our minds are capable of staying in
and it it's uh it's extraordinary
consciousness. It's not regular it's not
the regular organs of consciousness that
are happening in the everywhere else in
the physical body and the vital and
emotional. It's it is a direct knowing
and uh it itself is it is not it is a it
is a dimension of consciousness that
does not move the way the other
dimensions move. It's just there and it
is employed to recognize insight. It's
it's like an insight source. And so many
times when people will tell me about an
an insight, I can feel the the presence
of that dimension in their mind when
they if they've just come into a
practice meeting after having had this.
I can still feel that they're there.
They are utilizing that that
intuitional. I don't necessarily mention
that but it's it's what's there and uh
uh people get in too big a hurry to get
there. Uh but it is uh it's just the
mind it you can place it on any object
and it just stays on that object. It
doesn't it doesn't it doesn't it's it's
it's not it's just such a refined state.
Um one if you imagine well how what
where did the Buddha sit in the night of
his enlightenment in this direct knowing
this direct apprehension this this
intuitional it makes uh it makes uh I
can visualize that because we can um it
can take the the subtle levels can be a
little hard for some people to feel
particularly because they they have an
idea and then they're looking for the
idea rather than starting with the
experience and naturally arising always
starts with the felt sense as a practice
method and then then you have this
experience and you go oh what is that
and then you you look to the ideas about
it the you know classifications and all
and so the uh the intuitional
uh the intuitional to the atheric to the
manifest
>> the astral is a a a which works with the
etheric in terms of serving that
intuitional but it's like a it's like a
a a consciousness that's uh more
flexible more you know when people have
visions that's astral dimension of
consciousness uh when uh when you feel a
little bit out of your body you don't
really feel in your body that's you know
that's taught a lot on retreats about
coming back into your body where where
are you if you're not in your physical
body. Well, it doesn't mean that you're
not still connected, but your your mind
space is that astral.
And uh like I say, visions, intuitions
of a of a certain kind, the uh you know,
when the idea of the Buddha visiting
these realms and so forth, that would be
classified in this map is part of
astral, but in a very ordinary way. It's
not uh people can uh romanticize the
astral and they they looking for big
experiences. You can have big
experiences very concentrated
mindopening experience from any of the
bodies to begin with.
But the astral uh uh uh uh there there's
uh when uh people have had a lot of
trauma they they may have uh uh gone to
that dimension of consciousness to live
through it to stay sane to stay safe.
And uh so a lot of things that come up
in terms of people having challenges
sitting uh these uh this can get sort of
cleared up through this gentle gentle
gentle exploring of the astral
>> and uh it's it's uh it's where things
come in and go out in terms of regular
thinking. So you see the the role of
emotions and thoughts uh uh coming from
that astral into and into the emotional.
It's very interesting to watch that how
how thoughts will generate emotions and
stir up the ocean waves and how uh those
waves can generate all these thoughts of
opinions and comments about and you can
watch that from that that uh emotional
astral together and it it can help you
break this addiction to because it's so
easy for us to get seduced by those
emotions and those thoughts.
and it'll help you break it
>> because you're in the bigger picture.
You're not in this you we're never going
to find freedom by freeing ourselves
from one instant after another. We have
to do it in patterns as the Buddha was
pointing out in my opinion.
>> We we'd never get there.
>> Philip, that's a a great uh beginning of
a tour and uh we could go so deeply into
any of these. And I am curious just to
touch on these last three uh that are
part of um that causal the three causal
bodies of the spiritual, the divine and
the cosmic. Um and I think we'll
probably request to go a little bit
longer uh just because this is so
fascinating. But um yeah, those in terms
of big picture um they I think they can
make sense on a meditative level. And
I'm curious if you have found a way to
um make them make sense to people on an
intellectual level like some of the the
wording is like um advita or like the
the spiritual body in Sanskrit is atmika
which could be translated as like the
self the self body atmas
and like the polye equivalent of these
like just there's not so much languaging
around this specificity that you've
pulled out and I'm curious if you can
can you frame these in a Buddhist
context these these latter three of
spiritual divine and and cosmic
>> and I I you know in the book I say that
there is no self that in so I to make
all that as clear as I could so think of
them as potential
that the spiritual body is as that
dimension of consciousness where you can
you can uh imagine anything, you can
feel anything that it's like the sun
shining on the earth. It shines equally
on the weeds and the grass, the trees,
you know, and and there in the desert.
It is it is non it's a potential that it
that is the that is the gift of the
human mind heart to know liberation to
but it does not discriminate in terms it
is it is where this comes forward as
possibility all of our thoughts all of
our behaviors all of our imaginations
from right there and but so what makes
it spiritual is that it's it's got a
benevolence
to it. But that doesn't mean that it
will be used benevolently.
That's the gift of the possibility. But
then if it's a potential, then it's the
manifestation that how what
characterizes how it's manifested. And
that's why that's our work that the the
the
nonharming aspect of the you know the
eight-fold path and and the sila and so
forth. And then the divine it was
described to me as like uh like the one
time it was the fruit and then the tree
another time and the it was the it was
the roots and the tree and then another
time described as the the the tree and
the fruit. The the divine is like the
there but they're really uh it's it's
more um
it's it's it's not so related to us.
It's more it's some sort of principle of
being or something
you know that that emptiness that's
radiant and
>> and responsive you know the way
described in Tibetan that feeling and
then the way I was taught in terms of of
the of the causal the this causal body
it's mysterious and you not even you you
can only intuit it the spiritual and the
divine you can't you don't really feel
it. People have really argued with me
about this and I'm just saying how I was
taught
uh because I don't care about that thing
whether it's you know I'm not interest I
I like the felt sense and does it help
us recognize what's suffering and not
suffering choose realize have the
realization we can choose non-suffering
and then we have the insight to choose
non-suffering that's all that interests
me I so I don't I don't pop up in the
theory very much I do believe The felt
sense will get us there. The felt sense
and I do think that the Buddhist
teachings were very felt senseoriented.
I realize that many people certainly
scholars don't think that maybe but it
where you know this direct insight a
direct insight is not a deduction
induction kind of thing. It is a direct
knowing that's felt sense from me my
perspective. So that the the the the
third of those three and and and at that
level we just leave alone in a way
because we it's it's imponderable. You
know what happens to the Buddha after
death? Imponderable. It's it's that
category of not knowing. Whereas the
island that you can't go beyond is
something that can be felt.
You with me?
No, that's helpful. That is
>> it. It can be felt. But this this is
beyond it's beyond it's beyond gate
para.
It's beyond beyond, you know, kind of
feeling. So that's how they're
constructed.
Philip, I um gosh, I have uh I'll save
my I have one question I want to say for
the very end, but um before that um just
to bring it kind of very uh
back very much to people's felt
experience right now. You talk about um
that aligning in the coming to
meditation, you know, arriving and
aligning with dharma. Um it really
reminded me of the Mahanama Suta where
the Buddha says when one recollects the
tatagata one's mind is not overcome with
greed not overcome with hatred not
overcome with delusion their heart heads
straight based on that recollection and
when one heart one's heart heads
straight one gets a sense of the dharma
a sense of the goal and joy um
>> and I so appreciated your your kind of
instruction to find what touches the
heart and and for me that image of the
Buddha really shown um and I'm just
curious you know right now where you see
so many people uh really being knocked
off center by news and fear and the
threat of AI to their jobs and politic.
Um, how do you what advice would you
give to those listening with like how
you can
how you would advise them to keep their
center to remain aligned in this this
era and to stay kind of tuned to those
all those notes of the bodies in in a
you know really beautiful way in the
midst of all this? Well, uh uh I I think
that we're very fortunate to have to
have the dharma and the Buddhist
teachings and um uh in the natural
arising method is the the the dimensions
of consciousness are just one part and
not the major part that just helps us
with the the major part is the
establishing oneself in this inward
staying way through through the there's
other parts of where we establish
ourselves that we didn't have time to go
into tonight, but the uh the that when
you arrive when when and you notice I
pointed out the wholesomeness of
arriving, the wholesomeness of that
mindfulness uh
that you're already turning your motive
your motive uh that's going to be my
next retreat on the purification of the
motive. But uh the uh uh the you're
you're already just establishing
mindfulness which we don't usually
recognize because we're performing you
know we're we're we're we're practicing
results. The natural arising method is
practicing practice. And so we're we're
flipping it around and we and in a very
insistent way because uh it it allows us
to find three characteristics that are
just essential for the western minds in
my opinion. One is humility
because the reason we've, you know,
we're we're trained to result in life.
You know, you're a little kid, you learn
to kick the ball to win the goal and to
everything's a resultoriented as opposed
to living in life and being available
oriented. And so it it it takes it it
takes some effort to get out of our own
way. And the naturally arising is seeing
it will naturally arise if we get out of
our own way. And again lots of people
seem to be finding this to be true. And
so this uh the uh the the humility uh if
we have humility we are not defeated. We
can practice practice but if we don't
have humility and I mean literally where
I will say to a person I would like to
ask you in these next two days till I
see you again to really explore yourself
in humility very direct about this. But
many people I if if they keep doing this
and I everybody seems to be able to
discover the benefit of this. And then
the second of these is the the the uh
innate or inner dignity. I I sometimes I
say innate you know inner dignity is the
whole thing that quality that is innate
in us
that is not based on you know how
competent we are how smart we are you
know how healthy we are how good-looking
we are not based on anything it is is
literally human consciousness
the way again I think the Buddha points
that out so beautifully in so many
different. So why how how can you afford
to open to surrender the way the Buddha
asked because at the core
there is this innate
this in which this empty awareness maybe
is a way to what describe that but it is
and it the it's innate it's not a self
it's not a self because you know
anything that is composed decomposes and
that's with you but there is this
feeling of that that I find so strong in
the in the in the meditation. And then
the third of these characteristics is
integrity.
And that's why that's how we avoid
spiritual bypass. And you bring those
three to the arriving sequence where you
more and more learn how to show up for
yourself.
And you can you don't have to be in
meditation to do this. But it start you
really learn it in the protection of
from the sits gates of meditation. You
you learn to arrive and you really go I
want to be available to life which also
means being available to aliveness.
Aliveness this precious human birth is
in its aliveness. It's not in the idea
of a precious human birth. It's in the
felt sense of aliveness where we can
awaken from my perspective. and then and
then the the with the uh uh aligning I
usually align with the first two of the
eight-fold path and uh my you know my
whole practice is around the four noble
truths and those insights so I'm just
from the time I met long for they were
dead from me and but these these are
very tangible experiences that everybody
can have for themselves. I have not
written this all down yet. I will do
that and I'm in the process but it's
very hard to write down how to practice
much easier to talk about something that
can be understood but to be practiced is
nothing but there's nothing easy to say
about that you have to be patient to
read about practice
Philip you're um those three qualities
genuinely are touching to hear you say
you know humility and the motion that
that requires and the task of the first
noble truth of turning towards suffering
and then that goodness that you can
find. Um, and then dignity, what kind of
comes out of that and and that
uprightness. Um, and I just want to
thank you for naming those three as kind
of landmarks to move through the world
with because they're those are quite a
precious trio. Um,
and they really work. They really work.
This is not some theory, you know, this
all came from a yogi doing practice. And
I had all these years and I didn't have
anything else to do. I was not a family
man. I was not I was no longer in
worldly activities.
So I I just practiced and practiced and
I I looked for what would help me
practice. I so wanted to be accountable.
You know, I really had such motivation
for that
and that's that's how this has come
about.
Philip, we're we're so grateful for you
you joining us and being willing to um
you know, like Ajin Kovale said, so many
of our communities benefited and we're
just delighted to actually finally get
you on. Um we hope you get to come visit
us and we're Philip has agreed to join
us for the Zoom session and I'll post
the link in the chat right now. But
before we let you go, um I have one
final question and that's if Esquire
gave you one issue which you could write
the cover story for now, what would your
headline be, Philillip? What would the
cover the cover article be that you
would write for America?
Uh
I I've had not thought that way and I
don't tend to think of the one anything
like that but uh it would have something
to do that uh
uh despair
uh despair is a legitimate feeling but
it's not a reality.
It's
>> not a reality. It comes and goes. It's a
niche too. Uh but it it is a reality
that so many Americans are feeling right
now. But that that but it's a
misperception of what it is. You know
that's that would that's the first thing
comes to mind.
>> Well that definitely deserves to be a
national conversation. So yeah hope hope
inquirers listening please.
Well, people can um yeah, find out more
about uh Philip at dharmaground.org
and dharmisdom.org
and you can sign up. There's a uh a
newsletter you can get 52 kind of
installments of. Uh you just sign up
there and yeah, all those who are free
now, you can join us over on Zoom. Uh
did we just put the link in there?
Great.
>> And it's also in the uh video
description or rather the event link uh
on the website will have it as well. Um,
Philip, thank you so much and for all
you've given us your time and teachings.
>> Yeah, I've enjoyed being here with you
and thank you for your uh striding forth
in the way you have to kind of create a
a new resource for people.
>> They appreciate that and uh so many
people are expressing that also. So,
>> thank you Philip. We'll see you in just
a second.