‘Bachelor’ Alum and Sexologist Taylor Nolan Stops By

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode a Bachelor Happy Hour, and I'm so excited to finally report. I am gazing into Rachel's eyes once again. We don't have we don't have any shoddy Wi Fi, no more tornado warnings that we have to deal with. So it just feels good to be back back to some normalcy here. And I can't wait because Rachel, we have a fun episode and we have a very fun guest today because next week, I don't know if it's a surprise to anyone, but we are recappy Nick Vile season on The Bachelor's greatest season's ever. And of course not only did our guests that will have on come from Nick season, but you know, my lovely co host, Rachel, that's where you started in getting your foot in the door in the Bachelor world. And you know, I think that's obviously where you started, and then I was on the season after you, and so it's kind of like where this friendship blossomed and what brought us together. And so it's gonna be fun because I feel like I have to first personally think Nick for you, and because without him, we would yeah, thank you Nick. So without him, we wouldn't have you guys, and so yeah, before we introduce our guest Rachel, you obviously had such a huge part in his season, and I'm curious to know how do you feel now watching Nick season back and having it re air and kind of reliving some of those memories and those feelings. Interesting watching Nick season back now because so much has happened, you know what I mean. Like I've been had my own season, engaged, married, friendships you know that have developed, some are still good, some aren't. It's just so much has happened. I've met so many people, so many you know, leads have come after me, contestants. It's and I'm watching it through different eyes now because I knew nothing when I was on the Bachelor, And it's crazy to go back and watch Nick season because I feel I was so naive going in. I didn't know anything. I knew the basics of the show. I remember I was like, what's first first impression rows? When like Chris came out and brought out the rows, it was like, what does that mean? You know? There was just so much. I was just kind of flying by the seat of my pants, excited and having so much fun with the girls. I think that's the best part of going back and watching it, but just realizing I had no idea what I was getting myself into, no idea at all. I mean, I feel I was thirty one, but I look at that Rachel and she seems like such a baby, such a baby, and I have to agree, like I, you know, it's been when did Nick season air four years ago? Ari? When I was on his series three years ago, and even like you said, so much has happened. I feel like I was just such a different place in mindset. But I felt I mean, and I had watched some seasons of The Bachelor before I went on, so I think I knew a little bit more probably than you did going in. But I also feel like I went in with my rose colored unintended rose colored glasses on me and like, oh, this is going to be the most exciting adventure. And you had literally no idea what to expect, what was going to come around the corner, who was going to come in and out, And those first couple of weeks, especially when you're living in the mansion with all the girls, it's it's special. And I wish I could go back to those, like first two weeks and really soak it all in and soaking those conversations and those I loved it. I loved it. It was I mean, it was kind of scary at first, being like, I'm going to be living with twenty to twenty five girls who have no idea who they are, where they came from. But surprisingly like and especially at first, I really wanted to get to know everyone and got along for the most part with everyone, and so I just wish I would have soaked it in a little bit more. Oh my gosh, it's such a different perspective. It's very interesting. I feel like I didn't get my like, find my rhythm till we got outside of the mansion. I felt like I was suffocating in the mansion. In a matter of fact, the very last day before we left, I didn't know we were leaving. That day, my eyes were swollen, like my face was puffy. It was like I was having an allergic reaction to the mansion, I mean truly, And then once we left, I was all good. And then even in watching the nixt season back, I'm like, I don't remember, and I hate to say this, there's so many women I don't remember from the first night, even who went home after the first week. I just felt like, yeah, once we got on the road and ours was just a little bit more interesting because the hurricane was coming to Hilton Head and that's where we were supposed to go on the season and we couldn't, so they had to rearrange things at the very last minute and we went to Wisconsin. So we were in a hotel for a day with like normalcy, like no producers around us, no microphones, we could listen to music, we could watch TV. We were sneaking into one another's rooms. So it was just a different experience. But yeah, I can go I can go on and on and on about our season. Well, thankfully we will be able to watch some of it back on Monday, August thirty first, But before that, Rachel, I know that we love to do this, especially when we're recapping the seasons. We always have the rose and the thorn, and I want to ask our guests this too when She's on. But I need to ask you, because you lived through it all, what was throughout the entire season of Nick season? What was your rose and your thorn? This is so tough because I feel like I have a lot of roses honestly. So, I mean the rose I would have to say are the friendships that came. I can't like narrow it down. It's like all the friendships and even the friendship that I have with Nick to this day. So I'm throwing him in the bunch too. I don't I feel like I out of maybe Vanessa for different reasons because they were engaged. I'm probably the person from our season that's the closest to Nick and so, and we do have a lot of respect from one another and a friendship. So I really appreciate that. I pride myself in being close with my exes except for the last one, and so I like, I'm glad that I can continue that on with Nick, and then just the friendships, friendships that I made that will last a lifetime. On the season, it was a beautiful surprise to me. I didn't expect to make one friend and I left with many. I'm thankful for that. The thorn, I would say, I'll flip it on that. On that side, I would say the loss of friendships. You know, there's so many people that you've like. You just you start off so high and then you know, life happens and things happen and things just dwindle. So I would say the thorn is the loss of some of those you know, Um yeah, I like well, I like you said so well, and that is saying. It's like you you go from this crazy experience that really bonds you in a totally unique and different way that most people I don't think ever will experience in their lifetime with some of the girls, and then you know, you're like on this high where you're like, oh, we're going to travel and see each other and do all these crazy, cool fun things. And then, like you said, life does happen and it sput some people up. And but I do love how you started that, because you did say there's so many roses and that's the truth. It's hard to pick just one. But yeah, friendships, it's like I've said this before, it's you know, you go on the show to hopefully find love and hope that it works out in that way. But even if you don't find love with the lead, you still find it with some of those girls, which is a really special guying. Yeah, you know, I I have infamous for making a famous tweet back in the day after my season that said, these Bachelor relationships are fickle and fleeting, and I still believe that because I think what happens is the same way. You don't see these relationships work out between the lead and whoever they choose, because you meet each other in this protected world and then life happens and you get to know people how they are in the real world. And that's why a lot of times these relationships don't work as lovers and as friends, and it is an unfortunate thing because you remember the joy that you had when you were in this bubble together and the connection that was formed, and then that bubble burst and it just shows you a whole new side of things. Well, oh, there was one thing that I just wanted to say prior to the tweet, but mind blank whatever. It'll come to me later if you remember it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was gonna say. One of the things that I feel like people don't ever talk about, but I think I loved living in the mansion so much is because of all the food that they provided, Like there's stars. I don't know if you guys had this answer you did, it's probably I feel like when the guys when I was about shout, when the guys we're living in the mansion. It was like protein powders and stupid stuff and ours had like the frosted animal cookies and yeah oreos and yeah, I mean I definitely gained I think like the freshman fifteen, just living in the mansion for those two weeks. But it was so worth it. I was livid that there wasn't a chef I was living. I was like, are you kidding me? Out of all the money that this franchise has and all the things that you decide to cut back on, there is no chef. We have enough things to worry about in this mansion, like finding the love of our life, trying to you know, like navigate these women, these catty living and we all I want to do is come into like a beautiful meal and we have to cook. I remember they were like, who cooks? Like two people rest their hands in our house. I was, yeah, definitely wasn't there for the food. Again, I had to get out of that mansion, Okay, Becca, So now I'm super excited to announce our guests today because I can talk about NIXT season. But do you guys hear me talk about Nick Wow? I talk about NIXT season but you guys hear me talk every single week, so we thought it would be fun to bring somebody on from Nick season who not only lived through it, but she's a fellow strong female. She's a therapist, a future sexologist. She's someone Becca I'm proud to call friend, and we weren't friends on the show, I have to say that, so we'll definitely get into that. She's the host of the podcast. Let's talk about it with Taylor Nolan. You guys, please welcome Taylor to the show. Welcome to the show, Taylor Nolan. Yeah, he thanks so much for having me. I don't think I've ever met you in like virtual or real life becas. Yes, nice to meet you. Finally, I wanted to start out first. I obviously have to ask how you're doing, but Rachel and I were having this conversation. I also just for me, I need to know everything about a sexologist. Yeah, so all just basically means that they've studied sexuality. So a someone that has their doctor their doctor and sexuality essentially can do sex therapy. You know, they can do workshops, they can work with people one on one, they can write books. I mean, the biggest part I think of being a sexologist is helping people unlearn all the things that we've been told about sex and what it's supposed to be and how we're supposed to experience it. So a lot of it is walking people through unlearning things, processing through shame and destigmatizing sex, and just kind of helping normalize all the language around sex. Oh, first of all, I know that that's what a sexologist did. Second, yeah, that's for franchise. How have we not hired Taylor Nolan to have for the contestants to have a consultant with her, I mean your consultation with her right before they go into the fantasy seek? Can you imagine how amazing because there is so much stigma, especially for women before they go in, Like do I sleep with all three? What are people gonna say if I go, If I close the door, who knows what's going to happen. But imagine if I had this whole session with you before and it's like, you know what, I am woman, and I'm going to free myself behind these closed doors. That's what my parents called the fantasy the closed doors do not care. Oh my gosh, it's interesting because I mean on the show, so we talk about virginity a lot, right, like we have these I hate that. I know there's there's a lot of emphasis around sex, but a lacking of like real in depth healing conversations around west sex can be and just there is so much pressure built up on the show around it that I think is incredibly stressful for contestant. So, yeah, if that position opens up, let me know. This is I didn't watch Fultons, I'm sure. Typically I was like, this is gonna be too much virginity. I can't like too hard. I have a question for you, so and I swear to God, guys, we're gonna get into nixt season. But come on, this is interesting. This is interesting. Do you have a problem with the way the franchise fantasizes the fantasy suite? And do you think that we should have to wait until there are three people or they should just bump that up according to the league. You know what, it's week three, I'm feeling like I want a fantasy suite one, two, three, four, seven, eight nine. Let's let's go at it, Like, do you have a problem with the way that because it is this built up thing. I mean, people who never watch the show know about the fantasy suite. Yeah, so it implies that you have to wait to take that step with someone until there's a quote deepened up emotional connection, and not everyone works like that. So I do think that it would be amazing to see the show open that up to whenever someone feels like that's the next step quote unquote in their relationship that they want to take with that person, they shouldn't be free to do so. But I think it again because it's with multiple people. So again unlearning shame around sex and quote numbers I think is super important because yeah, if you go and you know, this is say week three, and he's now had sex with five of the girls, you know, how is the fan base going to react to the fact that this man's having sex with several women and that these women are you know, not having the opportunity to having sex with other men and explore their options. But how are they feeling internally knowing that the guy that they're dating is sleeping with other people? And this is where Nichelle in general, I think tends to kind of mirror typical dating in some ways. It just a more transparent, honest way where I I don't think it's a bad thing. It's the person that you're hooking up is also hooking up with other people as long as that's communicated and you're consenting to that. Yeah, it's second that I'm gonna I'm gonna one up you, Rachel. And we don't just see Taylor for like the pre fantasy suite talk. We need you just the entire season to be talking to all of the contestants because and it's so easy for the contestants to get in their head and even if they see the lead making out and just kissing someone, you know, they get it's just this like ball of pent up like tension and anger between them and the lead and the other contestants. We need you, Taylor, to go on. I don't know if you want to. I don't know if you want to deal with that, but you should be talking to the audience too. Listen, get out of your heads. Stop putting these stereotypes on men on women. I'm telling how you guys instead of date cards or an addition to day cards, just like it. Who wants to be a millionaire? You know you can phone friend, you can pull the audience. You should have like a key, a rose, and a day card and you get to the side, which one you want to hand out to them on the one on one if the franchise, I like stols this everybody Mark Mark just tagged this segment because how far would that be? No, I actually don't want a one on one day. I just want to spend the night with him tonight. This is tin into a game of clue, Like, Oh, Taylor in the billiard room with spicy, Let's keep it spicy. We're sick, We're sick of the way that it is. It's the same thing every week. Let's spice it up. Okay. So then there was like damn. I talked about my season you guys, uh, well, Taylor, how are you feeling knowing that it's re airing? And I asked Rachel this too, knowing that you have to, you know, rewatch the memories and stir up some of the old feelings drama. Yeah, at first I was like, God, damn it, I don't want to watch this shit again, Like what this is going to be so retraumatizing, so triggering, and I was really terrified. I was like just filled with anxiety. My heart was racing, had anxiety diary. Yeah, it was just like, I can't do this again, no, and was really terrified that I was going to experience like all the same online bullying, all the same shame, and feel like the entire world hates me all over again. I rewatched the whole season, at least until I left, because I'm self centered in that way, and I was like, oh, yeah, we all are. But so I rewatched it and it wasn't this huge, big, scary thing, and I felt like I actually saw it kind of with like a clearer head than I did the first time around. So I definitely felt less anxious knowing that it was going to air because I felt like I could stand by everything that I said and everything that I did. Certainly there's areas for growth, and certainly there's things that I'm like, oh, you know, maybe not the best way to go about things, But there wasn't anything that as I rewatched it, but I was like, wow, I really did wrong, or like wow, the things that people were saying were really true, and you know that wow, like I was such a shitty person, Like I didn't objectively, but I guess also a little bit biasly I didn't feel that way. I think it's interesting because I want to get into why you had anxiety knowing the season was going to air, and what was the motivating force, you know, to give you that feeling, because I was in the house with you. I was there, I said before you came on, I was like, we're friends now, but we weren't friends when the show aired. And I think for you watching it back, you knew exactly what you were doing, you knew the purpose behind it, but we didn't. And you know, watching it back, I feel like there were things that I missed and I didn't see because you know, like when this is Becca, this is Taylor in the house. She knew the words to every single song, like rap song. I told you every lyric. Like when we could listen to it, Taylor was like bopping and we were like, my god, she slept, Yeah, I slept a lot. You would like, she was like to herself a lot and then like in confessional. So we also really didn't get to know Taylor, whereas there was Karen, which we'll get into, who was a little bit more outspoken and involved soround going. For me to watch it back, it's like, well, there were so many things I didn't realize about you, Taylor, and so I think it was more eye opening for the people who misjudged you to be honest, to be frank myself included as we went through the season versus what I now know watching back. Yeah, yeah, and I think I mean I felt very alone on my season. I mean I was friends with Vanessa and friends with Danielle and felt really close with both of them. But you know, I didn't feel like I was pretty alone. I felt really incredibly stressed out and overwhelmed and scared. I mean, even watching it back, like the way I spoke, I was going so slow. I was trying so hard to just be like so intentional, to make sure I wasn't saying the wrong thing, to make sure I wasn't hurting anyone's feelings. And you know, yeah, I was either in confessional for like two hours or I was like trying to sleep and trying to you know, catch up, trying to process, trying to have my own time, trying to socialize as well, but also knowing like, holy shit, there's a lot of fucking girls and like we're not all going to get along. I'm like, who am I vibing with more? And like, how do we all navigate this. It was so strange, but I definitely felt like I was pretty alone and a lot of it. I mean, it was me and my producer essentially, and it's such a weird setting. I mean, to begin with having to get your phones taken away and you can't have access to emails and talk to your family and friends that you would usually lean on. Then throw in twenty plus other females that some are totally loud and outgoing and feed off of that. And for me, I mean, I feel like I'm pretty loud with my group of friends, but then you get that and I kind of I felt like I shelled up, which I'm sure you can kind of really to where you're like I there's so much going on and so much that you're just like soaking in and feed enough of that. I didn't know for the first like little bit, I was like, I'm just gonna take this all in and sit back because it's you just have to figure out how to navigate it. Yeah, And I mean, like Rachel said, like with music, I shined, and that for me was like with the lack of music and the lack of like friends, I felt like I was very small and I felt like I was just kind of quiet, and you know, I do like to party. I mean I don't drink, which I think was another thing, like a lot of the girls would bond with drinking. And and we were a drunk snow though, Taylor, we drank a lot like this was before. So that's a thing. I'm so glad you point before the rules And I'm really glad you pointed that out because you're right, you don't drink, and we did and we really bonded. Yeah, And but I do like the party, but like there's got to be music for me to party, Like just sitting out by the pool drinking, like that's not my thing. I'd rather be like, Okay, I'm gonna like take a time to go in a journal or like to make some food, and now there was music, i'd be out there like wrapping it up again after it. But none of that. So I'm like, okay, what can I do? Yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, that's one thing I feel like, No, you know, you watch this season back, and of course they have the drama and like the love connections and they always add in their own sound effects in music. But when you're filming a lot of times, unless someone's talking, it's dead silent. It's awkward at times, and you don't no one I think can relate to that or get that, because when you see it on TV it's something totally different. But yeah, sometimes it's weird whenever, and especially when people are fighting and no one wants to talk and it's just crickets, you're like, or you're drinking and there's always a song playing in your head. That that was the thing too, We always had music and rights. It's really I find you very interesting as and I I say this sometimes and I think it sounds offensive, that it's true character. We were characters on the show, right, So I find your character very interesting because I want to dive into the way you were perceived on the show, because I can only speak to what we perceived in the house, and obviously there's every season where they pen two people against each other. Now I have talked about my Bachelor ignorance prior to coming on the season, I can see it totally different now. I didn't know about A two one one before I came. I didn't realize what was happening in the moment. Now I see it. So our perception in the house was that, you know, like you had an issue with Karn, not that Karan had an issue with you. It was that you had an issue with Karren. And so I want to talk about that because now I know it so differently. So I want you to talk about, like how you feel about the way you were perceived on the show and what was the reality of it. Yeah, so I think that there definitely was this perception of like Taylor hates karrin Taylor has a huge issue with Karn and like, no, I didn't. I never had this like hatred towards her in the house, you know, just even to speak to like me being more quiet, Like I knew how they could build up drama. I knew how I could potentially be on the two on one if I was engaging with this. And my entire thing with her when we were still in the house and in the mansion was holy shit, I'm worried about this girl. Like from jump, I was like, how can I help you? Like you said it was heavy drinking, and so I literally was like taking her off of camera, getting her water and like going into that caretaker mode and being like not even really considering myself in this experience, but legit having like two hour itms like yelling at production being like y'all, like this is not okay, Like she shouldn't be like this intoxicated, and you know, like just feeling really helpless and feeling like, you know, there were times that she would talk to some of us, the other girls, about you know, wanting to drink less and you know how hard it was for her to be there, and like legit, I would try to like be there for her and talk her through this. And I think for me, I was learning the hard lesson that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped, and putting myself in a position where I wasn't necessarily I didn't my responsibility wasn't to be there for her in that way. And you know, I didn't look at this as I'm going to go in and just focus on me and just do me, like I was thinking at the end of the day, I'm gonna be walking away with friends from this, Like I'm it's pretty unlikely I'm going to get engaged on here, right, It's pretty unlikely I'm going to get chosen. So like, at most, you know, or at least I hope I walk away with some good girlfriends, and so I was trying to make sure that I was, you know, being as outgoing as I could. But from there were very early on, I mean, Kuren and I were in the same limo together the first time, really yeah, and there were like all these little things that were like, you know, I look back at it. It was projection of insecurity, which I think so many of us probably did during the first night, in the first few weeks, but there were so many these weird, like passive aggressive, just like kind of almost like mean girly comments that were made that I just like was closing in on my shell and was like, oh, just don't react, don't react, but this is so uncomfortable. Just don't engage, Like, oh, just try to be nice and try to be there for her. And still to this day, I don't have this like hatred towards her. I mean, women tell all was really rough, and I definitely like, you know, that's something later on we can maybe discussed, but I never had this like I need to take her down. Even on the two on one, I'm just kind of like, I just want to focus on my relationship with Nick. Meanwhile, she's like I don't want Taylor to get the rose. I'm gonna make sure Taylor doesn't get the rose. Like none of what I said was ever to take her down or that I hated her at her core. Like I was saying all the same things that everyone else was saying in the house, questioning the level of maturity right, questioning if she was really there ful for the right reasons. I was saying the same shit everyone else was saying. But I just have a lot more maybe attitude and passion behind. But I think there was a group, Like I was really cool with karrin So I think there was a You're definitely right, you were not alone. There were a whole I would walk into rooms beccat this is not a lie and all there would be a round table discussing Corinne, and I remember asked her and I were like what the fuck is going on? And and and like or outside And it wasn't even you leading that conversation. It was something else. It was like a whole thing that I did recognize of like trying to push this, let's talk about Karrine. It was never you, Taylor leading the conversation. I will definitely say that, no I wasn't, and even I think, you know, I mean, I feel like you did have conversations with Corn at one point about it, and I know Vanessa did even but I think that the way she interpreted it from people like you and Vanessa was that you guys were like bigger sisters in a way. You know, I was younger than her. I didn't drink the same name as her little as her little sister, like, which from a psychological level, I'm just like, Okay, I get it, Like I have the same name as a little sister. Thought about that, It's true. Yeah, So I was just kind of like, yeah, you know, I don't think you know things coming from me. I tried to put them in a very gentle way. I mean at the pool party, you know, I went in just to check on her because I had literally been liken me get her off camera because she needs to get some water, she needs to like lie down. And then I walked in to just go check on her. And then Sarah comes in and sas like, girl, you've got to get it together, and I was like to hold on. So I was like Sara, like she's barely awake and just try I mean, like soft and gentle about it. But I think maybe that approach like upset her more, and maybe that approach felt condescending because I was trying to be incredibly thoughtful with the words I was using and trying to just I don't know, I think I was being too patient with it, whereas other girls, like even Christina, and I was like, I'm not stupid, like I know what you're doing, and I don't know. Watching them back, a lot of the other girls were just way more direct and way more in a way actually outspoken about how they felt about her, whereas mine was predominantly in itms when I was being asked about it, which is a mistake, yea, who use those, But again we're all learning. Yeah, I mean I felt trapped. And that's the thing too. It's like, you know, it is, at the end of the day, a reality TV show, and once there's some little sprinkling of drama, that's what they're going to feed off of and keep playing that up. And especially for two women who are so different and handle, you know, conversation and interactions completely opposite, of course, that's going to be so heightened when when it airs back, where do you and her stand now? Have you guys had a conversation and hash shit out. No, I mean we had Women's tell All I think as an opportunity to do that, and that did not go well whatsoever Paradise the first day. You know, clearly there was lots of drinking involves that day as well. But you know, I think she had made some comments about not shouldn't directly address me, but was just like, you know, the past was in the past and we're just gonna move on. We're just kind of a fun time here, and I was kind of like, Okay, yeah, I know she's talking about me, so yeah, like I don't care. I was terrified going on Paradise in the first place, knowing she was going to be there and feeling like everyone hated me, So I was just kind of like, yeah, I don't care, Like I'm not going to involve myself. I don't care to say anything about what whatever it is you're doing. So you received a lot of heat. Now we're gonna get into a diversity conversation, obviously, but you received a lot of heat that even I wasn't aware about that you were receiving at the time the season aired, and you honestly had to bring to my attention what was said that triggered some of the hate that you received that was beyond the normal I don't like your dress, I don't like your hair. You know, we all get that kind of stuff. So I want to talk about it, especially in light of the current state of our country. It isn't something that we saw a dressed on Nick's Greatest Seasons ever. And this is what I love about podcasting because TV is set up in small increments and commercials and other people you know involved, But this podcasting, we can just have a free flowing conversation. Yeah, so I want to delve into that. Yeah. So I think definitely the comments that I received during our season airing were a bit uncalled for and really inappropriate. And part of what I tried to say at Women Tell All to Karin was that the words that she used gave the fan base permission to use those same words with me and to attack me in that way. And you know, I had people shaming me on being a therapist, shaming me that I literally had someone report me to the Department of Health of Licensing to report my license, that I was unprofessional and that I shouldn't be allowed to be a therapist. So that's why I women saw all I tried to say. You know, your words had like real life consequences for me that like, you know, I wasn't name calling you, I wasn't attacking your career. Like I literally was just echoing the same things around maturity that everyone else was. And it was really hurtful. I mean I also got a lot of comments about being bi racial, about being black, and you know, people calling me the N word and um viewing me as this like evil monster that was trying to take down this poor innocent white girl that I was like, how am I being? Like, I just I literally couldn't. The voices were so loud. I just felt like, wow, okay, I like just can't show my face anywhere, Like I've felt incredibly small, and I think it just yeah, I don't know, it was a hard time. What about the tagline that she used. Yeah, So going on to our two on one, I mean she had a lot of like great, you know, uh little taglines and funny things that she said, Um, yeah, exactly, I'm not that kind of person. Um, so she definitely has has me be in an intelligence in that area. Sure, for sure, she knows, she knows how to do that, not my strong suit. And yeah, going on the two on one, you know, she made a comment of no votes for Taylor make America quin again, and she had said that twice in that episode. And when I rewatched that, you know, this was right at the time of the twenty sixteen election and before going on my like going into my ims, going into the one one, you know, it felt like a lot of my conversations with her were somewhat Trump like in terms of like feeling manipulated, feeling bulldozed, you know in Wisconsin, being totally gas lit, like just feeling like what am I dealing with right now? And where it felt like, you know, you compare it to pass two on ones, where it's like, you know, I'm not Chad, Like I don't think I'm really Alex either, And then it was like kind of funny of like, you know, okay, it's like Trump versus Hillary, and I'm like, I don't know, but I'm necessarily Hillary here, but like I'm definitely not Trump. And then watching her say that, you know, who knows if that was something she actually came up with on her own or whatever it was, but regardless. That gave the audience that that that sentiment, right, that tagline spoke to all those people within our fan base who loved that campaign, right, who love all of what that stands for. That statement of make America, make America great again, which is not for people of color, not for black people, being used towards me being a woman of color, being biracial, was just kind of like, whoa, Okay, I don't belong here, and then I went home. So the fact that I then went home made it appear as if like, Okay, yeah, Taylor was the bad guy. Then Taylor was the one that wasn't the wrong where then I mean again, it just felt like, Okay, I don't belong here, like this is this is not a safe place for me, and clearly I'm not wanted. So it was rough. I'm sorry you went through that, and that's still bad that I just want to say, that's so bad that we weren't there, because at the time, I was like, that's the dumbest statement I've ever heard, make Korean great Again. And I liked krant, you know, I thought it was stupid and I never thought of how that would make somebody feel when that saying is put towards them, and how it empowered a whole you know, like group of trolls to attack you. So like, I apologize for not even being there for you and not even recognizing it. I wasn't why I wasn't woke. I don't cry. Well people do cry here and I'll probably be next. I don't want to make you grab it. I just I'm telling you, like, it's perception is just so different watching it back four years and just conversations you and I have had privately, and I hate that being another woman of color, I did not put that together. I just thought it was a stupid statement. I was like, that's dumb, but I didn't think of the depth of it. And so like, yeah, no, I mean don't. I don't want to make you cry. I just feel bad I wasn't there for you. Well, I mean I appreciate that, and I like, I understand why people distance themselves from me. I understand why I didn't, you know, develop super close relationships with everyone from our season. I think I think it was hard because the show becomes a popularity contest and you know, going even my intro package, you know, I talked about all kinds of things, and part of what they aired in that was me being by racial and struggling feeling like, you know, I was too white, so black people didn't like me, but I was also black, so white people didn't like me, and this difficulty, you know, with my own racial identity. And then then I'm also put in that position with this woman who is twenty four years old, hasn't annie, is incredibly privileged, apparently runs a multimillion dollar company, and then telling me that she's going to make America great again in her own way. That I was just like, wow, how like it felt very alone. It did feel like, how is no one else seeing this? And it felt like we were all on the same page up until basically the conversation in Wisconsin where when you actually watched that episode, she's like talking mad shit about how much she hates me and it's just gonna go give me a piece of her mind and then comes up and gets me, and you know, that conversation I was apologizing to her. That conversation was a two how we're along conversation of me literally just trying to echo the same things that everyone else had said and her basically asking me straight up, what is emotional intelligence? What am I talking about? Then me explaining it and then apologizing her, and just all these things like I felt so alone, I felt so like, how was no one else here with me right now? And again I guess that it becomes a popularity contest. We're all going through our own storylines, We're all focused on ourselves, and you know, definitely made me want to dismiss myself from the franchise a lot, and you know, I did think fully, I do feel like I have strong friendships from the show, but I mean, it really has felt like a place that like I don't belong and then I'm not wanted in. So I appreciate you saying that, Rachel, And like you said, when it was airing, it was obviously during a very heated year, and that's what we're fighting ourselves in now. And I think, you know, even being a fan before I was ever on the show, it's like you watched the show, you know you're gonna get the drama and the love story, but it's for a lot of people it becomes so much more than that. There's so much more depth and it becomes such a personal thing where it has to tie into politics. And that's why when people are like, oh, it's a show, like why do you bring politics onto your podcast or why do you make comments, it's like, well, everything is tied together somehow, and when you say, you know, she made a phrase or a comment that ties it directly into that and it's affecting you in such a hard way, like how can you not and how can you not address it? And something you brought up about being biracial and that is who you are, and you talked about racial identity and you talked about the struggling and it's it's a very common thing that I think that we should talk about more is when you are biracial, you're told you're not enough for one group and you're too much for another group, and you're left just in limbo in between. And we are seeing that we know that, not saying we know that Matt James is biracial. So is Tatia. Yeah, and there are a lot of people of color that are biracial in Batur Nation, a lot. There's sixteen I just did. I just did all Biracial series on the podcast that's Aaron and four part we just talk about that. Yeah, it's a few people were not able to make the recording, but it's almost all people from Bachelor who are half black, half white and just wanted to create it as a safe space to be like, this is what being biracial means to us, this is how we identify. These have been our struggles. This is what we love about being biracial. This is what we want people to know about being biracial. And there's certainly some common themes within that, but we all also do have different experiences. But one of the biggest themes was feeling unseen and feeling unheard on the franchise and feeling like we were just colored enough to be on the show. There was a Facebook there's a Facebook group that we talked about in the third episode that I was invited into. I was invited into that. Yeah. Yeah. But like the fact that there was a Facebook group of like just colored enough to be on the show, like just goes to show you. So yeah, it was a really powerful series to record and got feedback from a lot of people just like that was a really safe space and that felt really important because a lot of people who were biracial don't have other people to share and talk through these things with because I think for many of us there's internal shame that we have to process. I mean, I was recently on a show with a black woman and was asked how I identify and I recognize afterwards, I was dealing with my own insecurity of my blackness, and I said, I identify as by racial because I was scared to own my blackness and say, oh, I'm yeah, I'm a black woman, of fear that like no, I would be offending her because I'm also white and I've had, you know, different privileges of being light skin that I don't get to say that I'm a part of this black experience while also still having experienced plenty of racism on my own. Really likes it's a journey. No colorism is very very real, and it's a we could do a whole podcast and probably should on it. I'm really happy that you're tackling this on your podcast, and it's a four part series and I encourage everybody to listen to it. And I think it's so it's relevant period because you're dealing with people in there identity and it's a subject that we should talk about that we don't enough because we want to put place people into boxes. But it's relevant in Bachelor Nation because you're about to get a biracial bachelorette and we're getting a biracial bachelor, and I want I'm very curious as to your take on it because we're back to the times we're living in. Yeah, we're dealing with people like Rush Limbaugh calling Kamala Harris oho. We're dealing with people questioning not just Barack Obama. We dealt with it in two thousand and eight, questioning where how he was born and whether he could run for president. We're dealing with the same thing with Kamala all over again. And now we're dealing We're going to deal with it in our own little world of Bachelor Nation with Matt James, and who knows what people are going to how they're going to come at him. You're already seeing it. Oh people, right me, Rachel, are you really happy with Matt James? I mean, he's bi racial. He's like just colored enough, is what people are saying. I'm like you, guys, he identifies as being a black man. He's a black man. Stop. So all that rant to say, I'm curious as to how you think the franchise should address with Matt James this season colorism being biracial, and how they should navigate his journey being a biracial man, because I think it is extremely important he's not just black, he's also biracial. Yeah. Yeah, And to that, he's also been raised by his white mother, so he has been in predominantly white spaces. From my understanding, which has also been my experience, I hope that they do allow ample quality airtime for deeper discussions around race. We've seen them do it with bullying right at women tell All. They allowed space for that. I hope that throughout this season they actually allow his real conversation to come up, because I would be surprised if for Matt, in his dating, he's never had a conversation with someone about what has their experience been dating black men? Have they ever dated a black man? I mean, I'm by racial and I have that conversation with everyone I date, whether they're white or they're multiracial, whatever it is. I'm always like, have you ever dated someone that's looks like me before? And do you understand how my experiences are going to be different than your experiences? So I hope that we get to see some of those conversations. In terms of casting, you know, I always hope it's a diverse task, but I also hope that we're not you know, putting pressure on Matt or making assumptions about what his dating preferences are. Same for you, even rachel when you were bachelorette, of people being like, you know, well, she's gonna pick a white guy, she gonna pick a black guy, like and having this be this huge thing that like that means something for the show, like love is love. Can we not just let people decide who they love and not put this expectation that, well, he's a black man, he's by Rachiel, he has to pick someone who's also going to be by racial or who's also going to be black. Certainly, I hope that they give him plenty of, you know, fantastic quality options that he will actually experience a deeper connection with. But I would be surprised if there weren't conversation. I mean, I guess maybe I wouldn't be surprised, but I would like to see conversations around things like colorism, around the fact that he's grown up with a white mom and predominantly white spaces and how that's impacted, you know, his dating preferences, how that's impacted his own racial identity journey. So I hope, I hope we see some of that. I agree, and like I just I mean, and these can't be related. But I go back to, you know, Colton season all of the conversation around virginity, and I know, Taylor, you said that you didn't watch because it would have just I mean, especially as a sexologists, it would have been like pulling your hair out, like painful. Yeah, changed the narrative a little bit, so for me, and you know, of course, like I and Rachel and I have had this conversation a couple of months ago, Like I'm learning and even just speaking with you both, you know, I'm trying to put in the work, and I have to understand that I'm never going to totally know what you girls have been through and the struggles on a daily basis. I'm just trying to put in the work and better educate myself and to even think differently in question things in a different way. But God, I think, like if they can talk about virginity every episode for close to two hours a couple of seasons ago, we can have these conversations that carry wait and depth and are like it is twenty twenty and they need to be had. And so I hope that you know, yes, baby subsidence the step in the right direction, having Matt James and coming out Tasia, but keep adding on to that. You can't just say, Okay, we're good, we did our part, check the box. It needs to continue. Yeah. Yeah, And I too hope that it's a balance because one of the things that you know, in a way frustrated me just about my intro package was that I feel like most of it was about the fact that I'm biracial. And I hope that, like the storylines that we see from black people of color on the show, is um is thorough that the storylines are not just their race, right, that certainly it's a part of it, And let's give that air time, Right, Let's have those maybe uncomfortable, deeper, very real conversations. But let's also know that, like he likes to play sports and you know, is maybe religious, whatever whatever it is, right, Like, he's got these other parts of his life that are just as valid as him being a biracial man. Right when he was when he was rolled out and introduced and announced. I was very upset because the only things we knew about him is that he was black, his mother was white, and his two friends were the most popular white people in the franchise. And I was so disappointed because I know that there's more to him, and I know that there's a reason you chose him outside of that. So why not let the rest of the world see that? And I hope moving forward, and I've been very vocal about that, so I'm hoping moving forward we will see more of him. Also, to not be a hypocrite, I don't want to continue to keep talking to you about race, because then we're only making this podcast about that, even though I will say this is going to go down is one of my favorite podcasts because there's so much to talk to you about. I mean, like, we're supposed to be recapping kind of nixy then, but you're so multifaceted and that we can talk to you about race, we can talk to you about mental health, and we can also talk to you about sex. So I feel like the one aspect we haven't really gotten into is mental health, and so I want to ask you, though being in the field of mental health and coming onto the show at the beginning of your career. Do you think that it was helpful or harmful to you, to me personally or to my career. Oh, we can do both. Yeah, so I'll say to myself personally, I mean it was very harmful. It definitely hurt me a lot. I think I experienced, like the realist, deepest experience of depression and anxiety that I ever had after the show. I will say too that, you know, just to this point, even of us transitioning into this conversation, that this has been part of my frustration with talking about the show and being on the show in general too, because so much of my storyline was focused on Krin, and her storyline was able to be you know, her whole life right where she doesn't have to talk about me in interviews and whatnot. But that the whole storyline I was given, regardless of having all these other you know, dimensions to myself, We're all focused there. So I do appreciate this um and yeah, I will say professionally it was also harmful, but I think in the long term helpful, you know, I experience before our sit has even aired, you know, Jimmy Kimmel does the whole like run through of some people, and just the fact that I was a mental health counselor on the show was like, oh, I don't know if you're a mental health counselor, go on the show. I think you might need a mental health counselor to your law. I cannot I roll hard enough and things like that. So, I mean, I think it did give me. You know, it's I'm damned if I do. I'm damned if I don't. I was twenty two with my master's going into being a therapist in my own private practice, and I was either too young enough, I didn't have enough life experience. I go out and get my life experience. Well that's not the kind of life experience people wanted. I'm still not old enough. You know, all these different ways that people would try to discredit me, and I think also being a woman of color, that that's just another struggle you have to work against. I mean, Kelly on Peter Season is a lawyer, and you know she's straight upset in one thing of like I'm too smart for this, or like I'm really smart, like you should want to be with me, and no one is thinking that she's like condescending or anything like that, and I think mental health wise, I mean, the show did help with therapy for me after the show, but they did help accommodate with that, and I was good. I found that very helpful and I was like, thank you, You're supporting me. It means a lot, But yeah, I mean it. It felt like a social experiment going into it, and it certainly caused me to grapple with my mental health. And I do feel like, you know, it's cheesy, but like what doesn't Kelly makes you stronger, And so I do feel like from the show, I'm a stronger person with my mental health overall, and also professionally that I show up in a stronger way because of all of it. Taylor, I'm so happy we have you on just because, I mean, like Rachel said, for so many reasons. But I feel like four contestants going on not even on The Bachelor, Bach Shorter Paradise, but going on any TV show or kind of putting themselves in the public eye. You know, it's easy to look at it one way and to see it's shiny. I'm going to get followers, I'm going to travel I'm going to get all these great positive things, and a lot of times it's so easy to overlook what truly happens. And you know, I feel very blessed and fortunate to have come from being on The Bachelor and then the lead as Bacheerette, and to have all the experiences and memories that I have from the show. But also at the same time, it's it's hard to talk with other people who haven't got through it when you do say that you struggled with depression and anxiety, and it's there are dark things that do come from the show that people like to overlook, and you know, they don't want to talk about it. It's too difficult, it's not fun, it's not a beat. But that's why it's so important to have people like you on to really actually acknowledge and highlight like that is a very key thing that does come to a lot of contestants who come off the show. So for everyone listening right now, I mean, I think I would. I mean for almost any of the girlfriends I've made from the show or contestants that I've talked to you, they have struggled with it at some point, and so thank you. First for just being so outspoken about it. And I think it's important for our listeners too. If anyone is out there thinking of potentially coming on our show or any type of show, what advice would you give them prior to actually, you know, really thinking everything through and moving forward with that next step. Definitely. Well, first, I'll say, you know, I think it was before her season started airing, but I had met with McKenna in Vancouver and one of the first things I told old hera I was like, whether you get a great edit or you get a bad edit, I highly encourage you to start therapy right now, I said, before this season starts airing, highly encourage you to get a therapist to get on it. And that's what I've said to everyone that I've ever talked to you from the show, is like, I'm totally here for you if you want to talk, because it can be a lot to experience. It's a lot to take in your identity changes completely overnight, and whether you go into it wanting that or expecting that, it still is a lot. It's still is life prepared for it, not at all. And I remember people told me before I went on the show, Oh if anyone's prepared for this, it's you, Taylor, which I was not days. I don't put that pressure on me discause I'm the therapist. Like I'm a real person and I'm going to struggle too. And I mean, for so many of the girls on their season, I think this was a tough, a tough experience because you think it's just going to be this fun party on a reality show, but you talk about your feelings a whole lot. And I remember even after her and she's like, why am I talking about my feelings so much? She gets so much and it's almost kind of become this therapy session that you have in these confessionals. So you know, it's it's a lot emotionally to go through. And that's okay. You don't have to be this like you know, I can handle everything and take everything on and I'm like this, you're not You're a You're not a freaking robot. Um. So I definitely would encourage anyone who is going on a show, who's been on a show, who wants to be on a show, um to like reach out and get that extra support just to even process your experience. Right. It doesn't even have to be that you're struggling with feeling depressed or struggling get out of bed. I mean, I've talked with Blake about this after his Paradise experience, and I'm good some people depression. When like he's in therapy and talking about it openland, I'm like, thank you, thank you, especially for a guy that's really important. Um talk to Diggy about that my podcast, you know, and the stigma around black men in therapy, and it just it doesn't have to be this like I'm struggling with my life. I'm so depressed, I need therapy. You can want therapy. You can say I want to better learn how to cope with life. I want to have support and talking through these things and be able to have the third third person you know, in my life, have this unbiased support and feedback. I think that it can be really beneficial for anyone, regardless if you're in crisis or not. So if you do think you're going to be going into a major life transition, whether that's on a show or not, I think starting therapy prior to that can help you build up that rapport so that then when shit does hit the fan or when you are struggling, you already have that relationship built and you know you have that support built in. I got the still feeling that is. But honestly, that is some of truly the best advice you could give to anybody. And and you know, I've had couless conversations with friends and and even people who will message me being like, oh, I want to go on the show. What should I do? It's think about that and a therapist and being proactive is probably the most beneficial thing you can just do for yourself, for your head, for your heart, for your soul. Um. So god, you guys, listen to Taylor. She knows what she's talking about. This book on avoidance. That's what you need to do. You're virtually seeing my therapist right now. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, It's like it's a truly book on a point. My gosh, I love that you said you should do it before and after, Like, don't stop. I looking back. The only way I survived all of it is that I was in therapy a year before, not in preparation for this. I was just already in it from going through my own other relationship. And I'm still in it today. So you're talking five years. It's the only way that I've kept being saying throughout this this whole thing. So that's book book on appointment. Okay, let you go book a consultation because I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna I'm gonna let you have the mic to tell people how they can find you and sign up with you and everything. Because if you weren't sold, if you weren't told before, you're definitely sold after this podcast. Real quick, this is something fun Becca and I love to do. Um. As we're reflecting and you know, we're watching the greatest seasons ever and we're reminiscing and all the good, the bad, whatever, we'd like to say, what is your rose and thorn of things? So for Nick's season, what's your rose and what's your thorn? I would say my rose is my friendship with Vanessa. Yeah, you had a really sweet post about her when she got engaged. Yeah. Yeah, her fiance is fantastic. I love them, It's fantastic. Um, definitely like a lifelong friendship. Um, I'd say that's my rose, h my thorn, my thorn of While I was on the season or of after can it be? After? Sure? Can be after you, I would say my thorn of this season was in a way having my voice like taken away from me, of like allowing my inner voice to become the voices of all the negativity, of the shaming, of the bullying. I would say that that was like my thorn of like that's what stung me the most. I think that's what hurt me the most was not standing by my confidence, allowing my sense of self to be completely shook and transformed into what I was being told I was, rather than standing true to who I knew I was. M very well said, it's easy for you for your reality to be warped in the Bachelor bubbles super you know, and like you said, for your voice to be muddled due to all this other the negativity surrounding you know, what people just perceive from a two hour Monday night episode. It's but I after talking with you, and I'm so glad that we can finally virtually met Hope in person, face to face. But you know, for anyone listening, I mean, you had the highs and the lows, and you put in the work, and you just seem like you're in such a good, strong place, and so I'm so happy to have you on UM, but we need to know before we let wait, before you do this, before you do this? Can I just thought I just thought of this really quickly. Taylor, do you remember that your name was one of like the top two people always called first at Rose ceremonies? Do you remember that? I'm sorry, this is such a great I thought you were always either the first or second person called in Rose ceremonies. It felt like that, like, at least I remember. We would be like, Wow, Nick and Taylor bus really be having some intense conversations because you hadn't had a one on one or anything yet, and you'd be like Taylor and we'd be like, WHOA, Taylor's going out with Taylor. I swear you might not remember this, but your name was called at the beginning frequently. I remember, I remember, and Wisconsin was the first time that I was the last, and obviously throughout that conversation. But this is actually kind of validating to hear, because when I watched it back again, you'd only see a lot of me and Nick, and so you just hear me being like we have a great connection, we're really getting along. But then I was like, wow, I think I thought he was more into me than he really was, or like I was really excited about this and thought we had it really going, but you didn't even see any that, so I didn't even remember it. But I do remember on group dates, you know, we whole say something sweet about you before he gives the rose to someone. I never got a group rose date, but the things he would say about me, I felt like we're so deep and I felt like, damn, he is really enemy. This seems like really quality connection. And then I'd be like, don't get your hopes up. You're not going to get the group day rose, but it would feel like I was going to. And I did feel like we did have a strong connection. And I didn't remember being called first day another sense that's more validating group date roses. Don't we always say this. It's like there's a lot of strategy behind passing out a group date rose. But in the roles ceremony was like Taylor again, I swear I don't know who I was talking to. It has to have been Alexis Whitney Raven or as like yeah, we'd always be like what it felt like. It was great in the beginning because we didn't see Gull's relationships, so we were like, ta, Taylor's out there doing something. And I think that that's also part of what like went into the drama, because she very much felt like, you know, she had him and all this stuff. And so I think not only was I like trying to help her, which maybe felt condescending and like thinking I'm better than her, but then I was also seeming like a threat with Nick. That makes sense. It's crazy how things happened. I would have been a totally different person if I hadn't gotten the first impression rows I know that, you know what I mean, Like it gives you a different step, like a confidence, and then it makes other people gravitate to you because it's like, oh, you know, she did something right. It would have been totally different from me. So it's crazy how it works out. Okay, sorry, I had that random death and I was like, I have to tell her this because I've never said this to her before. Yeah, I don't know that. So thank you, Taylor, Thank you so much for joining us today. It was an absolute pleasure. Like I said, I hoped to meet you in person one day very soon. But before we let you go, I think for everyone listening. First, we need to know how to find you if anyone needs to chat with you. You like going to be the go to girl, I think, But also what can we expect to see from you in the future. Yeah, So first, maybe talked about the podcast called Let's Talk About It. You can find that on any major podcast platform. The most recent episodes are around the biracial series, featuring a bunch of people from Bachelor. Not always that's the case. A lot of what the podcast focuses on is mental and sexual health. So have a lot of different sexologists and sex educators on there, and I share some of my own personal experiences and journey with sex. I also just started a Patreon page where I will be doing Bachelor and Bachelorabe breakdowns, which is new for me because I usually don't actually watch the seasons, let alone talk about them and do a little like analysis of it. But I'm gonna be Yeah, I feel enough, We're moved, and I also feel like now that it is actually people that I can kind of see myself in and that I'm excited to watch that, I'm like, Okay, I could put in some energy to this um and appreciate the compensation involved. Um, there's only five dollars a month for it, um, So people can find me on that. Um. And yeah, I'm on Instagram at Taimoka, which is not because I'm bi racial. I always have to clarify this when I share my Instagram because people like, oh, yeah, Moca because you're a Mocha. I'm like, no, I don't call myself Mocha. Uh. Mocha Gel was the name of my first cat and I had like eighteen years and I'm a crazy catale I like combined her names together when I was like, we're Tamoca's cute. But yeah, on Instagram and my bio, I have the links to the podcast, to Patreon, to everything, vibrators, discount codes, everything's in there for people to check out there. So yeah, that's kind of all of where people can find me. I am doing psychotherapy right now, but only with clients in Washington State, and I'm kind of full. That's a good thing to be. Taylor and I've been after listening podcast. We get why listen, but yeah, but it sounds like there might be a waiting list. So Taylor an absolute joy. I knew this would be good, but I didn't know it would be this good, and I'm just glad to know you in a completely different way than from on this season. I can't believe that was four years ago, and I'm happy we had this conversation. I'm happy you and Betty get to meet virtually, yes, And I hope this podcast is very beneficial to our listeners too. I know it was, I know it was, so thank you so much, Taylor. Yeah, thank you guys much for having me. I've loved it, and thank you fantastic and love everything that you're covering on here. So I appreciate that. Oh, thank you. Oh I loved having her on. I really it's I'm so happy I said yes to the podcast because it's episodes like this where it's somebody who I haven't had the pleasure to meet prior to this, that you just have these awesome real life conversations. And one thing that you said, Rachel, you like, I feel like Taylor's the triple threat where we can talk about sex, mental health, we can talk about diversity, everything, and it's it's just such a good mix of these heavy, deep, good real life conversations that I think we all need these days. And so I'm so happy she was able to join us. I am too, And what's so great about it too, is she doesn't hold back. She's not afraid to talk about certain things, so we don't get these cookie cutter answers when it comes to her. She goes deep. And I think that that's what's going to make this podcast so great. And I've said it, I already said it. It's going to be one of the best. In my opinion, it's going to go down as one of the best, just because there was so much depth and richness to this podcast. And even I feel like our listeners, if you watch Nick season, you will get a new perspective of Taylor after listening to this podcast, because you didn't necessarily get it from even watching Greatest Seasons ever, You're gonna get it from this. And I've learned so much from Taylor in the last four years, and so I'm appreciative that you know, to have the opportunity to grow and to learn each other outside of the Bachelor bubble, And unfortunately that's something that our audience doesn't get to do. You don't really get to learn us outside of the role we played on the show. Unless you're you're lucky, and so I through podcasting, I hope that we continue to give people that opportunity to learn a different perspective and a different side of the people you watch on television, because you only get a sneak peek, you know, and it's yeah, I'm not saying people aren't who they are, but it's just a certain part of them. That's the beauty of being able to do the podcast is that we have the ability to have these conversations and then to bring it to the world. But I've said it before and I'll say it again, probably on every podcast, but you only catch such a small glimpse of what you see on TV, and people have their villains and the people that they love to watch, and that's not the whole picture. And so that's why we get to bring these people on and share them and their beauty with the world. So absolutely, all right, you guys, thank you so much for tuning in today. We can't wait for next season to air selfishly, just because I was a part of it next Monday, August thirty first, And you know, you know, we love to always hear from you, good or bad. As I've laid out last week, good or bad we still want to hear from you. We hope you guys are still liking, commenting, messaging us, tuning into what we're putting on our Instagram account, which you can find at Bachelor Happy Hour, or you can message us at Batch Happy Hour on Facebook and Twitter. Last, but not least, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening to this right now. Buy you guys, take care and stay safe.