Transracialism: We Have Questions...Still (w. Dr. Rebecca Tuvel)

00:00:06
Speaker 1: Welcome to Brief Recess.

00:00:07
Speaker 2: I'm Michael Foot, I'm Melissa Albranch.

00:00:09
Speaker 1: Today we're going to be talking about being baby crazy, the woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons to her ex boyfriend, how messed up our healthcare system is, especially in light of the Met Gala and Jeff Bezos and all the celebrities who went. We're going to talk about Tucker Carlson's bucket of wigs. We interviewed doctor Rebecca Tuvell about transracialism, which was a little bit wild for me. And we're going to answer all your burning questions for my DMS. So stick around. I've got a freaky, deeky, wicked and wild letter that you sent me, so you better sit your ass down. You answer the phone with me like I've called to you when you were driving with your mother, And.

00:00:46
Speaker 2: I always tell people to be careful about what they're saying.

00:00:49
Speaker 1: You didn't even say hello.

00:00:51
Speaker 2: I never do. I'm like, hey, my mom's in the car because because I mean because usually like you'll say something like yob and then you know, and then my mom will always say something she was just like yes, I mean they're good.

00:01:14
Speaker 1: I love it because I really do. Only ever call you when you're walking the dog or something horrific has happened, right, you are actually not not horrific, but like, No, you call me all the times funny or crazy.

00:01:26
Speaker 2: No, you call me all the time for random stuff.

00:01:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess.

00:01:29
Speaker 2: No, I mean, and it's it's fine. It's it's fine. But it's not like I only call you when I've got something to say. No, you call me with you don't have anything to say, and it's fine.

00:01:39
Speaker 1: My friend has a role. Don't put Michael on speaker in front of the kids, like or don't read out Michael's texts is like the role in her house.

00:01:47
Speaker 2: I think that that's probably a good rule.

00:01:48
Speaker 1: That's a good rule to have.

00:01:50
Speaker 3: How are you.

00:01:51
Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm baby crazy and I've never even cared about kids. Okay, but I've been around a lot of kids lately that didn't suck. They were like kind of cool and fun to hang out with, and that's never happened before. So like all the kids up until I guess this weekend. If you're a kid and you've known me before this weekend, I didn't.

00:02:16
Speaker 2: Including Maddie and Zach, his niece and nephew. By the way.

00:02:22
Speaker 1: I just like especially babies. Up until this moment, I've just really not been like drawn to them or felt an affinity for them. Yeah, you love babies.

00:02:32
Speaker 2: And I always feel like people don't believe me when I say I always want to see a picture of your kid. I always want to see a picture.

00:02:41
Speaker 1: And she really means it.

00:02:42
Speaker 2: I mean it, I really do. Like don't feel like, oh Melissa is not good.

00:02:45
Speaker 1: Yes she will and even if she doesn't know you, Nope, I'll be like, oh, my friends.

00:02:51
Speaker 2: Show a baby, had a baby, Show me the baby.

00:02:54
Speaker 1: And Melissa will be like, send me that ship.

00:02:56
Speaker 2: And not only that, but like so if Michael knows somebody who's had a baby, and I'm like, come up to the baby way and he's like, I don't know. I'm like, how long is the baby? I don't know. I'm like, how's mom? I guess she's okay, like the most useless man and like and then I And the thing is I asked these questions knowing that you're not going to know, but I ask you anyway. So really the problem is me, at this point, you're never going to stop asking me because I'm never gonna because I really want to know. Let me ask you a question, if there any do you feel like you might like kids enough to have one or just enough to not hate being around them.

00:03:35
Speaker 1: I think there was no wrong answer. I think there would have to be something major that happened that changed my life and my perspective that would shift how I feel about kids in my life, because right now there's no place for it and there's no real desire for it. Okay, but I do feel like I like them enough where that could change. But I don't feel like it's anytime soon. I don't foresee that happening. Ya.

00:04:04
Speaker 2: Do you think that there'll ever be a point in your life where you regret not having a kid.

00:04:09
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I also don't really think about my life in those like big sort of platitudes right where I'm thinking, oh am I gonna I don't really think about that. It's a little bit I guess my perspective is a little bit more truncated. This is sidebar. Let's get into a personal story from the week. I know that you have a unique family dynamic right with your husband and you have a stepdaughter. Let's get into it a little bit.

00:04:37
Speaker 2: You know what there I think that there was a point where I felt like I really want to be like, I want to have a child. And then when I started to realize that time was running out right, the clock was ticking on it, I feel like I grieved it just for like a minute. But now I don't look back thinking to myself, Oh, no, so sad that I never had a child. And I think that for me, it's because there have been a lot. There are a lot of kids in my life. I think that's the same for me, there are a ton of kids in my life. I was lucky enough to marry a man who had a daughter that I liked, and she liked me, and we get along really well. Her mother is a decent enough person. We get along just fine. Yeah, that is the ideal, because because KP was eleven when Anya and I started dating, and eleven is a weird age and I usually got to tell you, that's the age group that I don't like, like ten to like thirteen.

00:05:40
Speaker 1: The age group the TV show Pen fifteen where they're just so awkward.

00:05:45
Speaker 2: They're super awkward. They all smell kind of gamey and like the teeth are too big and the glasses are weird, the hair is fucked up. They're not that nice and the hormones are weird. I'm good, but and I also think that when he and I first started dating, we spent a lot of time alone before I met her, and then I would only see her like Saturday afternoon for a couple of hours, right, And then it wasn't until later that we spent a lot like I spent entire weekends with them and then moved in together. So I feel like like I'm a I know that I'm like a bonus mom and I am everyone's favorite. Onto.

00:06:26
Speaker 1: Yeah that's kind of cool though, Yeah.

00:06:30
Speaker 2: And I mean and I also my cousins who have kids, when they sent their kids to college, they all came to New York, and I was like, mom, on.

00:06:38
Speaker 1: The ground, you can buy them beer, you can buy them condoms, you can buy them cigarettes, Like you're that you're there.

00:06:44
Speaker 2: I used to just always say, you know, no guns and no knives, like no guns and no knives, keeps like, I mean, right, I feel like you can because I like, if I were to say don't drink, that's I be a hypocrite because they're going to don't have sex. Hypocrisy. I would rather just give you condoms. Please wrap it up, wrap it up, keep it clean and tight, you know what I mean.

00:07:11
Speaker 1: It's not going to stop them.

00:07:14
Speaker 2: It won't stop them, and it'll put them in a place of if God forbid something happens, they won't have anybody to talk to. So I want to be the person that you could be, like.

00:07:22
Speaker 1: Yes, when you tell a teenager, know, don't do that thing, what you're doing is just telling them to be ashamed of it when they eventually inevitably do it, if it's something that's inevitable.

00:07:32
Speaker 2: Right or I mean, I think you know my parents. I grew up in a really strict household, and my mom and dad didn't want me to do anything. And so what it did instead was that it made me really wily, and it made me super sneaky, and I lied incessantly and they never knew where I really was because I had always lied about it. And I remember one time I had see something on the which so much more dangerous. Of course, this is so cool course, and I mean, and the funny thing is is like, and I mean this sincerely, I wasn't really up to anything bad. I toltally look, I never did like I just was not interested. But I was sixteen years old. I wanted to go out with my friends.

00:08:16
Speaker 1: I could have gotten lost or in the wrong place, and no one knows where you are, like, you.

00:08:20
Speaker 2: Know, especially you know, when you're like a sixteen year old girl and like a twenty five year old man like comes up to you, You're like, there's a little part of you that's like flattered, right, Like, oh yeah, but that's really unsafe. Yeah, right, it's really unsafe. And I don't I don't know. I was making weird decisions because I felt like I had to lie all the time.

00:08:40
Speaker 1: Did you have older boyfriends? Because I did? Yeah, And I think back on that because I'm the age now are you of the boyfriend? And I'm like that was sick. Yeah, that was really messed up. But you didn't know that. No, But even and like back when I was twenty, he was twenty five and I was sixteen. When I was twenty five, I was like, wait a minute, and that is that was not cool?

00:09:10
Speaker 2: And like the idea of like as a grown twenty five year old man hooking up with the sixteen year old child.

00:09:16
Speaker 1: When I was twenty five, I didn't want to hook up with the twenty three year old. I was like, that is too immature for me. I'm not interested in what they're up to totally. Yeah, but you had older boyfriends.

00:09:27
Speaker 2: I did, Yeah, I did. Yeah, And that's all we're going to say about.

00:09:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, anyway, let's get into your algorithm is showing. Let's talk about what's going on in our feeds, what's happening in the news, what is all over your timeline because mine.

00:09:45
Speaker 2: Is, Yeah, what's in yours?

00:09:47
Speaker 1: Okay, because I did want to talk about this because I saw it this morning, and there are a lot of headlines right now, you guys, and there's a lot of breaking news, and there's a lot of noise, and we're not talking about the really important stuff. For example, the Canadian woman who sent eighteen hundred lemons in one at a time over two hundred and forty one days to her ex boyfriend. Okay, this is a uber eats criminal.

00:10:13
Speaker 2: But other that see, I saw this and I was like confused. Other than being really annoying, she's.

00:10:19
Speaker 1: Just was like, I'm going to annoy the shit out of this man for a year and sent him one lemon at a time.

00:10:25
Speaker 2: Right when I first read it, I was like, oh, I thought she'd sent him like eighteen hundred lemons at once, right.

00:10:31
Speaker 1: One at a time. One arrived during a job interview. But so so I think it's brilliant, right.

00:10:37
Speaker 2: Like, no, I like, do we strive to be that petty.

00:10:40
Speaker 1: One arrived at the hospital when when he was visiting his father?

00:10:44
Speaker 2: So I guess I wonder why how did she know that he was going to be at the hospital visiting? Did she poison the dad to make sure that he was in the house.

00:10:56
Speaker 1: This is why there are criminal charges because it's like stalking, is it?

00:11:00
Speaker 2: Though?

00:11:01
Speaker 1: I think that's what she's being brought up on, like a actual charges. CJ fact checked me here because I think she did not fully understand it was a problem.

00:11:11
Speaker 2: I think I'm on team Brittany based on what based on the information that I have, it's one lemon a day, who cares.

00:11:21
Speaker 1: Honestly, if he were a pirate, this would be like prepping him for scurvy in a way, like truly she's got she's looking out for him in a certain word, I just don't understand.

00:11:32
Speaker 2: I mean in some of the stuff he's like now he's got citrus based distress. Give me a fucking brain.

00:11:37
Speaker 1: The defense argued the deliveries were fruit and therefore not threatening.

00:11:43
Speaker 2: This is am I wrong?

00:11:44
Speaker 1: Right, No, I agree with you. I think it's like I think if.

00:11:47
Speaker 2: It was something like more meant like if she had been sending him like dog turds, it'd be more because that's disgusting and it's like possibly there's like disease. Yeah, but this is a lemon.

00:11:59
Speaker 1: There's a whole side of TikTok that tells you how to get revenge on an X without breaking the law. Some of them are like throw bamboo seeds on his lawn.

00:12:08
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, because bamboo it's really infasic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:12:12
Speaker 1: I ended up on bamboo talk after I saw that one that I thought was evil and brilliant was you put raw shrimp in the pole that holds up their shower curtain.

00:12:23
Speaker 2: Huh.

00:12:24
Speaker 1: That way they don't know where the smell is coming from and they can never find it.

00:12:28
Speaker 2: I had a friend of mine, so you know, Michael knows, But I don't know if people know that I scrap book, right, I won't be judged by you. I'm no, no, no, no no no.

00:12:40
Speaker 1: Sometimes people come out with like oh with mentioning a hobby. But I'm just not ready, just ready.

00:12:47
Speaker 2: But you've known that. I've been scrapbooking since we've known each other, I know.

00:12:50
Speaker 1: But you seem so normal up until you mentioned it, and then it just really mecaps me. I forgot this about you.

00:12:58
Speaker 2: So when I first st I did a lot of the women were significantly older than me. So there was this woman. She actually passed away last year. She her husband. She and her husband were getting a divorce and he was moving out. Okay, so before he moved out, he was really allergic to fiberglass. She washed his underwear in fiberglass, like you know, the he got a fib a fire crouch h But he didn't know why she washed all his clothes with the Oh my god, right.

00:13:31
Speaker 1: So he's got a mysterious rash.

00:13:33
Speaker 2: Not knowing what the hell happened. I was like, you know what.

00:13:38
Speaker 1: Has someone who's gotten a mysterious rash from like a hot tub That would have sent me spiraling? I would have been on the virtual zoo the doctor.

00:13:47
Speaker 2: I mean, this is this is I mean she did this? I think, yeah, yeah, probably like in the eighties or something.

00:13:52
Speaker 1: But I'd rest her soul Wow, good for her.

00:13:54
Speaker 2: Oh she was. She was like she was just like you know, I was. I was going to be civil and he cheated and I kicked his ass out. However, you know, I'm all about.

00:14:03
Speaker 1: Crime and punishment until it comes to an next boyfriend, and then everything goes out the window for me. I'm like, it's a man, we kind of have to scale this one. We have to do we have to use a sliding scale for this punishment. Yeah, like what's like, what's the sliding scale?

00:14:16
Speaker 2: Like? How bad?

00:14:17
Speaker 1: I don't know. My first boyfriend cheated on me. So I'm just like perpetually jaded. So I'm just like everything I approach is like, if you cheat on me, they will need tweezers to identify the body. Like it is not gonna.

00:14:32
Speaker 2: Be but like you know, it's records, right, No, I hear you. I think once I've had some time, I stop caring.

00:14:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is true. I do forget pretty much everything anyone ever tells me. But like eventually I just truly forget what happened. Yeah, but that core emotional trauma stays of just like yeah, when it comes to like boyfriend revenge, I just know that.

00:15:00
Speaker 2: I mean, there are definitely some people where you're like, you know what, I can never be in the same room with you ever again, Like I can never see you again. I don't ever want to talk to you again. But I also have no need.

00:15:14
Speaker 4: To like.

00:15:16
Speaker 2: I don't know, do like wash your underwear in fiberglass, like I just it's I'm good for.

00:15:21
Speaker 1: Someone who's like keyed cars. I'm like surprised you've said that. You're saying that, like I'm surprised that you are. You're like, I don't need revenge as someone who was the lookout while your friend drilled holes in a man's masta.

00:15:36
Speaker 2: No, it was a Ford probe.

00:15:39
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, Pinto, I'm not that old.

00:15:43
Speaker 2: It was a prob.

00:15:44
Speaker 1: I think there's a little revisionist history here.

00:15:46
Speaker 2: I don't know it was a probe. It was a probe. I mean, okay, but like I wouldn't do that.

00:15:51
Speaker 1: Now, You're like, I've got ship to do. I got laundry, I got dishes, tired.

00:15:58
Speaker 2: I'm tired, I got a I don't like it outside like I'm good.

00:16:02
Speaker 1: We barely have voting rights anymore. Let's just just kind on.

00:16:07
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think that. So back to Brittany, I think that I don't understand what is illegal about this. So she apparently did this. She sent on eight and forty seven lemons in single orders over two hundred and forty one days, sometimes multi multi orders per day to her ex So like the one that arrived during his job interview at the job interview itself, and so somebody interrupted the job interview to give him the lemon.

00:16:38
Speaker 1: That's probably the door to thatsher where you.

00:16:40
Speaker 2: Meet the pen like this, it's so it's so stupid.

00:16:44
Speaker 1: Well, because did you see his name as Cole? Yeah, I'm sorry, he deserves it people named Cole. I'm sorry, No, I'm sorry.

00:16:52
Speaker 2: That is not what do you have against Cole?

00:16:54
Speaker 1: I just I just think that's one of those names where it's like he's probably a douche.

00:16:58
Speaker 2: What else is a name like that?

00:17:00
Speaker 1: Jamison? I don't like anyone named Jamison. I think about you. Well, I don't trust any Matts there's you are. I am judging mats until proven otherwise, I.

00:17:13
Speaker 2: Think what I hate. I don't think there's a name that invokes something to me. But I get upset when people spell their names wrong, like Justin with the why wrong? Yeah, it's wrong. That's not how you spell justin it's not or like do you know what I mean? Or like, and it's not even the person's fault, it's their parents' fault. But like how much does your parents? Does your parents hate you?

00:17:39
Speaker 1: His parents? Like I want it to be really hard for them to order from Starbucks?

00:17:44
Speaker 2: Justin with the why did you or anything.

00:17:47
Speaker 1: Like that, did you watch the mac Gala or like see did it like cross your feet at all in your algorithm? Not at all?

00:17:52
Speaker 2: Well a little bit, a little bit, but like I think I was disinterested. So I'm trying to like cultivate my algorithm so that I don't get stuck on things that annoy me. And I was not interested, so I flashed by it.

00:18:09
Speaker 1: That's a beautiful like New Year's resolution.

00:18:12
Speaker 2: I mean, it's what I really need to do is get all social media.

00:18:15
Speaker 1: Well, because like the algorithm is a reflection of life, and so for you to be like I'm going to blow right past the things that annoy me and focus on what I like. That's like kind of a life philosophy. I mean, I say that, but then you're kicking people on the subway.

00:18:31
Speaker 2: I'm about to kick you I do end up on like the weird side of TikTok, like I'm I've gotten I'm on too, like pedicure TikTok, podietary TikTok, which is people are struggling out there. It's really bad.

00:18:50
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can handle.

00:18:51
Speaker 2: No, I know, and some of it is like so deeply disturbing, and I think, and so what I really think it's a reflection of what happens when people don't have access to healthcare. Do you know what I mean? It's like a yes, it's like ew, but like it's like that because because if you could afford to go to the doctor to take care of something, if you had healthcare, you probably would not wait until you couldn't walk right. You probably would not wait until whatever it was on your foot became gangrenous. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I watched that. Oh I watched that. You know what else I watch? And then this is really disgusting, like the earwax ones.

00:19:38
Speaker 1: No, I have to go. I can't handle that. I can't I don't have the stomach.

00:19:41
Speaker 2: I'm not even ashamed. I'm just like this is who I am at this point. This is what I'm looking at I don't want to look at ai fruit anymore, but I will look at the dietary TikTok. I am a very damaged person. But yeah, I mean, and I say that this sort of like ties in with what happened with Obamacare, right, those subsidies that expired. Okay. I was looking at somebody who was saying that his premium had been something like three hundred dollars a month that he was managing to take care and it bumped up to eighteen hundred dollars a month, right, and he was just like, well, Okay.

00:20:20
Speaker 1: Then it drives me insane because it's like, at what point do we hold corporations accountable for their activity? And it's just so sick to me. I mean, every other country in the world, like every modern nation has healthcare, and it's still this like hot button issue here as if it's like debatable if people need this or not.

00:20:42
Speaker 2: You know. I was listening to something the other day about the political violence right now people had become sort of really apathetic, and one of the examples that they mentioned, even though it wasn't really political, was the murder of the United Health not a healthcare CEO I don't know that it is an indication of like bloodlust, right, but I do think it's like we understand how somebody could be so frustrated at their health care system, right Like I was. Remember I think I told you that I needed to have a sleep study done, right, Yes?

00:21:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, Wait what happened?

00:21:22
Speaker 2: Nothing happened because my insurance won't cover it. No, no, they won't cover it.

00:21:26
Speaker 1: And like some of the best insurance, yeah.

00:21:30
Speaker 2: And they won't cover it. And I think the out of pocket of it was something astronomical. It was like ten thousand dollars. Yeah, And so so then what am I to do? Right that my doctor's saying that I need it, my insurance company is saying that I don't need it? Really, right, this is and that's and I think it's things like that. And at least for me, this is not like I don't have cancer, God forbid, but like when there are people who have diseases like that, illness is like that. Could you imagine being a parent of a child who has something and you have.

00:22:09
Speaker 1: Insurance and also you and I are so frustrated by this, and we are the most privileged people, right, Like we live in a major city where access to so many different healthcare and we have good coverage, yeah, we have good insurance. Yeah, And still it's like just constantly whittling away.

00:22:28
Speaker 2: It's constant, and I mean, and I've been like and I'm hoping that we get to talk about this another time, but like, just there's this guy that I follow on social media and I can't remember his name right now, but he's a social worker. He's going for his PhD. And his job is he advocates for people with their insurance company for them to get coverage, coverage, and so it's we always see it from his perspective, him talking on the phone and he's saying, the doctor said that this person needed you said no. We've been back and forth, and now this person is dead. Right. And the thing about it is that the person who's making the decision is not somebody who is a medical professional. It's a bean counter, right, And so that is why, right, that's why I'm on pedetary TikTok looking at stuff like that, and that's why people are not taking good care of themselves.

00:23:23
Speaker 1: And it's also why people are freaking out on service workers. It's like no one has access to or the systems in which they would affect that change with their elected representatives have failed, and the only person they have access to is the person getting paid ten bucks an hour to answer the phone a customer service, and so they're absolutely amazing their shit on that.

00:23:45
Speaker 2: Person, and it's not okay to abuse that person. But I think we're living in a space where more and more people are so frustrated, we're so frustrated, we're so angry, we're taking things out on other people. There is a lot of political violence, and I mean, and again, no matter how you feel about the president, that any president of the United States, it's not okay to try and kill somebody, right, And the fact that it's happened to this president, it's happened three times, right, whether he correct is it is, it is concerning. And I was reading that apparently somebody had tried to kill Obama eleven times. And I remember, I forget how old I was, maybe I was in the third grade when Ronald Reagan was shot, Like this is I mean, you know, and it's and it's happening more and more.

00:24:40
Speaker 1: Right, I was going to say, I think it's just going to it's.

00:24:43
Speaker 2: Absolutely we're escalating, And I think we're just coming to a place where, like I said, people are just so fed up, especially if you are somebody who's trying so hard to do the right thing and.

00:24:56
Speaker 1: You cannot really interesting expressions of joy in all this quote Andre Leon Tally dracitude. All right, we need Andre Leon Talian these trying times and there's all these like.

00:25:17
Speaker 2: There's a documentary about him so good, it's so.

00:25:23
Speaker 1: The best. But this, in this dratitude, people are finding like ways to find joy, right. And I saw in response to the met Gala, which is sponsored by Jeff Bezos, it's costume artistry and it's brought to you by the Bezos. Is it's and you know they're constantly shooting on their workers and union busting and being billionaires that fund ice and a bunch of Amazon workers have their own red carpet met Gala. That it was so great, it was really good, and it's like a lot of people boycott it, But a lot of people didn't boycott the Mecala, and a lot of people that you would have hoped boycotted didn't.

00:26:09
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think I think also we are learning that people are very disappointing. Yeah, you know what I mean, it's people that you even if you're not somebody who's a huge fanboy, right, like, but there are people that you're like, that's disappointing. It's disappointing that you didn't say something about this particular thing. It's disappointed that this is your stance that you're choosing to sort of like shit on people like like like honestly like JK Rowling is super disappointing to me. But people like that, people that you feel like they have something that is good, like a talent. Yeah, and they've got name, recognition and power.

00:26:52
Speaker 1: And they've got the platform for it and.

00:26:54
Speaker 2: The platform, and what they're choosing to do is either shit on a population, yeah, say nothing. So I was reading something about the metala and how what it used to be versus what it is right now. Right you used to be invited to come and now more and more people are paying to come. So it's so it's framed as a donation to the met ye to do whatever exhibit that it is. And you know, and listen, fashion is art and art deserves.

00:27:24
Speaker 1: To be I mean, I think the met has its own form of problematic.

00:27:27
Speaker 2: Don't they all?

00:27:28
Speaker 1: They all do, Yes, they all do. But I think the met itself is like not great towards its workers. The Sacler name was all over it and it took a lot to get them to remove it.

00:27:38
Speaker 2: What else did you need, folks?

00:27:39
Speaker 1: They've got a lot of you know, looted antiquities, all sorts of fun stuff like that. Every institution has its own negative publicity. But I'm just disappointed and seeing the people who have who went to the Mechcala knowing that people who I think are so quick and easy to repost an anti ice thing on their instat when it suits them. I just like, I'm noticing the people who pull in a social justice movement like Black Lives Matter or Ice out of LA and then they push it away the second it doesn't suit them anymore. Yeah, it's gross and I don't like it. And I don't want you wearing your Ice out of LA pen if you're not going to put your money where your mouth is. Like I think that happened with Black Lives Matter in twenty twenty, where everyone was like, we're going to do our blackout post and then they just like went back to casting all white casts in their movies and TV shows, right.

00:28:30
Speaker 2: I mean think about all the makeup companies who were just like, oh yeah, we're now going to have like people of colors, and they they had like the one and then the one token black, the one token, and then it was that was it.

00:28:46
Speaker 1: I'm more disappointed in people like that because you're actually co opting a movement, using it to move forward your own agenda, your own success, your own celebrity, and then dumping at the second.

00:28:58
Speaker 2: It's like, in community, what bothers you more? Does it bother you more to have someone do what you just said, Like when something is hot, right, they decide, oh, yeah, whatever, black lives matter or whatever it is, and then like do nothing later? Or do you resent the people who never say anything? Ever?

00:29:19
Speaker 1: I think I can hate everyone, and I think that's like a beautiful thing about my personality is that I can hate you all each. I think there's something like equally sick about both of you, right, Like one of you is like performing. One person's performing and using a movement to raise their own profile, and the other person is like willfully blind. And I think those are two different insidious diseases and they both should be euthanized.

00:29:51
Speaker 2: I think that Michael, I think that The folks who are performative really really pissed you off more the people who are silent, because if I choose to believe that people do try their best, Yeah, we never know what the person who is silent is actually doing in the background.

00:30:10
Speaker 1: You know what this is. I think it's the trolley problem, you know, the like if you pull the lever, it kills ten people, but if you don't pull the lever, it only kills one person. Like, which one do you do? It's like a famous philosophical debate. One is doing nothing and one is doing something and also causing harm.

00:30:27
Speaker 2: Yeah it causes harm?

00:30:28
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Yeah, I don't know. I think they're both monsters. I think they both suck and I don't like them and they should eat it and die. And like that's kind.

00:30:38
Speaker 2: Of like and that's what he has to say about that.

00:30:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, like that's that's kind of like all you get from me.

00:30:44
Speaker 2: No, I hear you, I hear you. It's again. I'm tired of being disappointed at almost everyone at every level. Right, I'm disappointed in like celebrities, I'm disappointed in newspeople, I'm disappointed in my I'm just totally random thing that just popped into my head and I'm really what.

00:31:04
Speaker 1: I have one last thing to sell on this. I'm sorry before we segue. Yeah, I am so sick of people who just like don't who just like are not getting involved in We are not at a place in society where you are not a part of it, even with your silence, even with like your capitulation, Like you your silence is causing harm. And it's so obvious now and there's so much evidence that that's true that if you're not doing anything that that really does drive me crazy. So like these like melli mouthed celebrities who don't support anything and who are just like pretty and out there and making movies and TV and on Instagram, like that pisses me off, Like use your platform for something. I have become close with SJP and she uses her platform and and in like this extraordinary way where she's so involved politically and knows what's going on and is like well read and well versed in everything, reposts everything, reads everything. I mean, it's just incredible the way she's been able to say, like she's like one of the most famous women I think alive today and she's like yeah, hell yeah, like people like her are just like very inspiring to me, and her doing that hasn't diminished her celebrity, right, we don't see like it's proof that doing that isn't going to take away from your sort of public profile. So anyway, what was your sec que?

00:32:28
Speaker 2: This is a really silly thing. But so I was listening to an interview that Tucker Carlson gave and I listened to the whole thing.

00:32:37
Speaker 1: What do you think of his wig? What do you think of that wig?

00:32:41
Speaker 2: I think he needs to get better lace. I think I think you need to get better lace. I think that the glue that you're using is old and dry, fried and it's sleaking.

00:32:55
Speaker 1: And he's kind of woke now in a weird way. Snaky the tale.

00:33:00
Speaker 2: Yes, let me just say that. I mean, there are so many things about him that are deeply problematic, but I will tell you what I learned about him that I was floored to hear him say that. Did you know that he almost never votes? I never?

00:33:16
Speaker 1: I never vote, So that's the truth.

00:33:18
Speaker 2: I did not know that he said it himself. He was like, yeah, I rarely vote. I voted for Trump and twenty sixteen. I think he said he voted for him in twenty twenty and in twenty twenty three. Oh wow, but he seldom votes.

00:33:33
Speaker 1: No, It's like, seldom votes except for those two times for.

00:33:35
Speaker 2: Drawn right, no right. And so really, that's what he's saying is why he's so disappointed in him, because he was like, I hardly. But it's like to me, you're like, you're one of the people who's responsible for what we've got going on right now. And he didn't admit it. He doesn't admit it, and he's like, sorry, but like you don't vote.

00:34:00
Speaker 1: That's not what bothers me. What bothers me is that, like you saw what happened for four years in twenty sixteen, and then you were like.

00:34:07
Speaker 2: Oh, he thought it was funny. Please no, because what he said, what he's what he's saying that he's upset about now is like this war that nobody wants, you know, things like that. He like people who were who voted for him were doing so because they know for financial reasons, and he's not helping those people. So he's saying that Trump is not doing what he set out to do. Listen, if not me, you could listen to it yourself.

00:34:31
Speaker 1: What a stupid fucking bitch.

00:34:33
Speaker 2: He is the most annoying interview.

00:34:35
Speaker 1: It gets hit by a bus. He is the dumbest, gay little bitch on earth with ugly ass hair. He's got a suitcase full of wigs. Take your suitcase full of wigs and move on to the next town, buddy. I like, fuck, fuck that little stupid.

00:34:50
Speaker 2: Bitch, Like you don't vote my guy? But like I'm so, I was so. I was flabbergasted by this, and I was like Andre and I were listening to it in the car and I was like, hang on, did he just say he doesn't vote?

00:35:13
Speaker 1: Driving off the road?

00:35:14
Speaker 2: I was livid.

00:35:16
Speaker 1: I have seen some interviews where he is he really like baits the crap out of the interview. Do you see the interview with Ted Cruz? No, Oh my god, it's Tucker Carlston and Ted Cruise.

00:35:26
Speaker 2: I've heard about it, though it did not go well.

00:35:28
Speaker 1: It is like, what is that? It's like Gorilla Godzilla versus Godzilla versus I don't really know who I'm rooting for here, but I'm just watching this too. Monsters at each other looks so stupid. Yeah, I guess this is like political dog fighting.

00:35:52
Speaker 2: It's like well, he was asking. He was like he said to I think he said to Ted Cruz, how many people are in.

00:35:59
Speaker 1: Turkey, Iran, Iran and Iran. I think it was Iran.

00:36:03
Speaker 2: It doesn't even matter right.

00:36:05
Speaker 1: Ted Cruise was like, we need to invade But he was like.

00:36:08
Speaker 2: Well, how many people? And he was just like, well, give me a guess. He's like, I don't know, I don't know. He was a guest and he was just like, you know, eight and Tucker was just like one point seven million?

00:36:18
Speaker 1: How many people living around?

00:36:19
Speaker 5: By the way, I don't know the population at all. No, I don't know the population. You don't know the population of the country. You see to Topple, what's the ethnic mix of Ron? They are Persians and well predominantly Shia. Okay, you don't know anything about Iran.

00:36:36
Speaker 1: And I remember this, and Ted Cruise was like, why do I need to know the number? In Tucker's like, you want to invade them, you should at least know a little bit about what you're invading, how many people you are up against? And he was like, oh yeah, did Ted Cruz is was going to Iowa this week to stump for to get to start to stump for the mid terms, so it's good to know they're sending their best and brightest for the GOP to Iowa. I did say that that probably means there's like a juicy this every time. Every time Ted Cruz leaves Texas, it's because there's like a storm coming and they're all going to lose power. So if you're in Texas, just get ready you might lose power because he did leave the state. Yeah, anyway, let's take a break. Welcome back with Under Oath. Welcome back to brief re says, this is under Oath. You may remember a few episodes ago we talked a bit about transracialism, me and Melissa, and we thought it would be interesting if we reached out to some folks who do research in this area, who are scholars, and so we're going to do a deep dive with our guest, doctor Rebecca Tuvell. She's an associate professor in Chair of Philosophy at Rhodes College. Her research addresses topics like transracialism and cultural appropriation. Please welcome Rebecca Tuvell. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining.

00:37:53
Speaker 2: Us, well so much for being here. We really appreciate it.

00:37:56
Speaker 1: Where are you located. Are you in where are you? Just so we're a where are you?

00:38:00
Speaker 3: I'm in Memphis, Tennessee.

00:38:02
Speaker 1: All right. We thought it would be interesting to just sort of talk to you. We reached out to a few different experts, so this won't be the only conversation we have on this.

00:38:10
Speaker 2: Topic, hopefully not. Ye.

00:38:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it has sort of came up because it was coming across Melissa's algorithms.

00:38:17
Speaker 2: It was, Yeah, it came across my feed and I sort of started digging a little bit into it. And I remember when Rachel Dozal sort of like first sort of came on the scene, and I remember not realizing that trends Rachelism was like a thing, right. I just thought there was this woman who's cosplaying as a as a as a black woman, and I just remember being really sort of as a black woman myself being super offended by the notion of this, Right, my race, my ethnicity is not a costume. I don't really I don't love the idea of somebody appropriating that. And also she was the president of her local naac Key chapter and I was like, well, that feels some thing to me. And also one of the things after she had really come out and we were hearing learning more and more about her. There was a recording of her having a conversation either in a classroom or in front a group of people, and she was talking about her hair transition, and as a black woman who did have a hair transition, that was you know, I think you need to sort of be a black person to understand this. That was challenging and difficult for me for a multitude of reasons to hear this woman talk about how difficult it was for her, only to realize that it wasn't right. It was something that she said to make herself seem authentic.

00:39:42
Speaker 4: Right.

00:39:43
Speaker 2: I found that really upsetting. But that aside, there have been a few other people more recently that I have come across my feed and I remember sort of sitting with myself and thinking to myself, why is this bothering me? Yeah, because when I hear that somebody is transgendered, I accept that as face value. So we should believe that people are who they say that there are. It is not for me to dictate who you are, who you are, et cetera. And I could not understand why for me those two things feel very different. But you know, we often talk about you know, Michael and I talk about things that are facts versus feelings, Right, this was definitely not based in any fact. This is just a feeling that I have a feeling of being uncomfortable. So I sort of fell into a rabbit hole about this and so now and I brought it up to Michael, who had never heard of it before.

00:40:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, on air, I was like, I this is the first I'm hearing about this. I mean, Rachel Doleas I was really like the only ever entree into this. So could you sort of tell us, like, what is transracialism? Where is this coming from? And you kind of like define it for.

00:41:01
Speaker 4: Us glad too, And I think, you know, Dolezol for sure as a figure is complicated, and I think it's important to think about transracial theory or transracialism more broadly. And you know, we can talk about Dolesol in particular, and she's certainly become kind of like the poster woman for transracialism. But as you note it, Melissa, there are many other people kind of started coming out of the woodworks. And the question is, for me, is transracial identity a real identity that people hold? And then what can we say sort of metaphysically about it, so metaphysically meaning like, is it actually possible to.

00:41:44
Speaker 3: Change your race? Those are interesting philosophical questions. So I define.

00:41:48
Speaker 4: Transracial identity as follows. Someone has a transracial identity if they like sincerely identify as a member of a race or eth no race with which they have no known recent ancestry. You know, I define it, and I emphasize eth no race in addition to race, because a lot of the accounts kind of highlight the importance of kind of ethnicity to racial identification. So if we think about races as picking out like large populations of people linked by geographic origins, common ancestry, and characteristic physical traits, eth no races are like the cultural.

00:42:37
Speaker 3: Subsets within those races.

00:42:39
Speaker 4: So things that are you know, we where we think about like not just appearance but culture, so language, religion, customs, traditions, such that we can say that, you know, African Americans and Afro Caribbeans are both racially black, but maybe eth No racially distinct. And in looking at the accounts of transracial folks, a lot of them will kind of ident I at no racial first and foremost like and there's was one study of fourteen self identified transracial people. That kind of really highlights like the ethnic element to us fascinating.

00:43:13
Speaker 1: Okay, so I did a lot of like internet digging when this came up. Melissa and I sort of talked about it, and you know, when we were getting prepared to talk to you, I think for me, the rubber really hits the road. Well, first of all, I don't like when I'm like a gay man, and it makes me really uncomfortable when people start comparing community struggles to other community struggles, Oh, the transgender identity, Like I get nervous, and it makes me uncomfortable when people are like, oh, well, being trans racial is like being transgender, because it's like I don't like when we're like A is to B as B is to see. Like that makes me nervous because it's like it sort of is reductive, and I think it takes away from each community's sort of journey or what they're working through. Or I don't think we should be comparing a Haitian person's journey in America to a white gay man's journey in America and saying, oh, well, it's the same persecution struggle.

00:44:10
Speaker 2: It's not.

00:44:11
Speaker 1: And it also really bugs me, and I think the rubber hits the road for me when it comes to everyone I was seeing who came up when I was doing this research was a white person trying to be a person of color or saying I'm transracial, and it was a white person transitioning to a person of color. And that shit bugged me because I was like, when you do that, that is an assertion of a privilege that Melissa can't turn around and do and pretend to be Michael or say I am Michael, right. But a lot of the people who identify as transracial were saying I Am going to be a Haitian woman, and they were white people like me, And that for me for a loop, because I was like, that is you asserting white privilege in America. That is you saying that you are going to commondear someone else's culture for your for whatever purpose, for your journey, and whether that is a true belief, whether I mean so I want to remove this, Oh well, that is just transgender. However it's race, because that doesn't feel like an analog to me. It feels like when a white person is like, I am going to be a Haitian person. Now that feels very different to me because it's so linked to community, it's so linked to racial identity, and there's a history, there's a history of slavery people of color and how the institutions are sort of structured. So I think that really freaked me out when that was happening.

00:45:55
Speaker 4: No, this is excellent. Yeah, I just yeah, I mostly need to.

00:46:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't want to be like I don't want to be like Rebecca fixed this for me, Like, I don't that's not like what I'm doing, tru Yeah.

00:46:07
Speaker 4: No, No, I didn't think it that way. I mean, I'm a philosopher. I just I love hard questions. I love thinking about, you know, different arguments and uh and comparing uh, you know, different kinds of identity claims. I think I'll just make a note quickly about.

00:46:22
Speaker 3: The nature of analogies.

00:46:23
Speaker 4: Analogies they never compare two identical things, right. If they did, then it wouldn't be an analogy, right, we would just be talking about the same thing. So analogies, by their very nature, compare two things that have relevant similarities but also that have certain dissimilarities. Again, that's why you know they are analogies and not just mere identity claims. I do think that it's important to be cautious when we draw analogies, and at the same time, I think it has been really helpful to, like the history of political activism, actually to employ certain analogies.

00:47:03
Speaker 3: So you mentioned, you mentioned being gay.

00:47:07
Speaker 4: You know, the Supreme Court case in defense of gay marriage had actually borrowed some from the case in favor of interracial marriage, right, so against anti missinsienation laws. Thank you, Yeah, Loving be Virginia. And so there's at least there's an example of how sometimes like seeing similarities maybe in different kinds of struggles can be liberating, I can can be helpful, let's say, toward certain liberatory struggles. I do think when it comes to transgender identity and acceptance, especially like in our current you know, political moment, it is risky, of course to draw analogical comparisons, and I certainly understand.

00:47:58
Speaker 3: Like the hesitation that people will have around these kinds.

00:48:01
Speaker 4: Of analogical comparisons. You know, it's it's important too, I think when you when you think about you know, publishing like an article in a in a journal in philosophy where you're exploring different kinds of arguments, versus you know, taking a kind of like public stance and defense of like, hey, here's here's this analogy, and do with it what you will write them. I think, certainly I never anticipated my article being read by you know, more than you know a few people. But but of course it was in the in the cultural zeitgeist at the time. Anyway, people people weren't drawing those comparisons.

00:48:41
Speaker 1: And that article, you could you tell it give us a little bit of background on that.

00:48:45
Speaker 4: So sorry, yeah, yeah, I published the article in defense of transracialism in twenty seventeen in the feminist philosophy journal Hypatia, and it would argue that similar considerations and rightful support of transgender identity and acceptance also extend to transracial identity and acceptance.

00:49:05
Speaker 3: And you know, I really I said that.

00:49:08
Speaker 4: You know, the paper was less about Dole's all in particular, and more so using her and Caitlin Jenner's appearance on Vanity Fair the same month, Rachel Dolezel came out as a sort of opportunity to think through the philosophical questions of you know, transracial identity.

00:49:26
Speaker 2: In your work, Have you had an opportunity to speak to people who were transracial and what has been your I mean, I think that for as many people that there are, there will be somebody who looks at it one way or another. Right, No, I think no two people will look at any one issue exactly the same way. But what what did you find and was it? I wonder? Sorry, I'm sort of working through this as I ask you. The question is is there a difference do you think in the way that say a white person who is a transracial person to become a black person, are they very different than say a black person being transracial Asian? Do you know what I mean? And what do you think that difference is and where do you think that comes from? I don't know that you can really answer that question, but it's just something that I've been thinking about.

00:50:26
Speaker 4: I think it's a great question, and I'm glad you asked it because it reminds me that I wanted to say something in response to One of the somewhat known transracial identified people is named Ronnie Gladden. And Ronnie is actually a black man who identifies as what they call transgracial, both transgender and transracial. So like Ronnie identifies as like a white woman. And I've had Ronnie, come speak to my classes before via zoom and Ronnie, I sure would be very happy to talk to y'all too, very very friendly individual. It's interesting that Ronnie's story has kind of flown under the radar, I think, because I think it sort of challenges the idea that many people have about transracial identified people, which is that it's just like white people looking to identify as minority races for some sort of like various purpose or stating some advantage or something. So that is one thing I just wanted to name. I think that there are there, certainly are going to be all kinds of different factors that play into why it is that somebody who's born like white or black or Asian or whoever, is going to identify as a member of another race.

00:51:48
Speaker 3: Right, I think that familial environment.

00:51:52
Speaker 5: Right.

00:51:52
Speaker 4: So doles All herself had this interesting story where she like strongly disidentified with her white parents and then strongly identified with her for black adoptive siblings that her parents had adopted from Africa, and then she's had an interesting kind of racial experience, let's let's say, growing up. It's totally plausible to me too, that some people could be identifying as members of another race for maybe reasons having to do with like internalized oppression, you know. And I think pulling apart the different reasons why we identify as we do is a very messy, messy game, and honestly, I think it applies.

00:52:31
Speaker 3: To transgender identity too.

00:52:33
Speaker 4: I mean, we're not you know, I think there are all different kinds of ways of being trans.

00:52:37
Speaker 2: Right.

00:52:37
Speaker 4: Some people argue that like trans is a neuro biological condition for some trans people.

00:52:44
Speaker 3: Maybe it is.

00:52:45
Speaker 4: And there's other trans people who identify for reasons that we don't. We don't know, and it's for all you know, it could be that some of those reasons have to do with like a internalized misogyny, that's what some people claim. I mean, I'm not here to kind of adjudicate, like or figure out who identifies, you know, as they do and why. But I think it's just worth stipulating that, like identity is really complicated, and I think you can acknowledge that there might be all kinds of different factors that go in, especially when you're dealing with like members of a historically marginalized group.

00:53:15
Speaker 3: So I would just like urge caution.

00:53:17
Speaker 4: I guess in general, when it comes to like an identity that you hold and that you flame like.

00:53:22
Speaker 2: I think if you've sort of paid attention to history and stuff, there have always been people who have passed right. And these were usually for people who don't know. These were usually African American people who their phenotype was such that they appeared as white, and they decided to live their lives or maybe travel as white people as a way of protecting themselves, as a way of protecting themselves, as a way of achieving a better life, being able to earn more money and no longer live with the oppression that have you know, sort of dogged African American people, especially in this country. I feel like those people. Again, these are feelings. These are Melissa's feelings, not facts that I look at those people and I there's a part of me that has tremendous amount of empathy. I understand, right, you are trying to protect yourself. You're trying to save yourself. That is not you know that, That is not the feeling that I get when I am looking at a transracial person. Now, I have never spoken to a transracial person to get to try and understand. You know, please explain to me why this is what you're doing. But I have to tell you I would I would never ask a transgendered person why they were doing this, right, do you know what I mean?

00:54:48
Speaker 1: Yeah? But I think for me, it's like transgender people and people of color are in this country fighting to survive. Yes, Like the highest rates of murder are trans women of color. So this notion, I think it really raises my hackles and gets me nervous when we talk about this, because it's like, these are two groups of communities that are fighting for their lives in America right now. And so it feels like when we talk about transracialism, it feels like and I'm not saying you're doing this, Rebecca on this call, it feels like to do that is it is to be like a little bit flippant with identity, to say like, oh, these two are the same, or that like transracialism is it just it makes me uncomfortable because I'm like, these these communities are already up against so much, and this feels like while some of it may, some transracialism may be valid, it feels like there is this channel running through it of an opportunity for a malfeezer to come in and be like, oh, I'm a white person who wants to kind of play around because of racial identity, and like that, and where we still have sorority parties where you know, sorority girls are wearing sombreros and mustaches, and just like being very callous and flippant with racial identity, like that is a huge part of American culture, not just like we still have people dressing as white girls dressing as Mulan for Halloween. We still have people who are being very appropriative of culture. And I think that it's not my job to like adjudicate whether someone's valid or invalid with their identity. But it's making me uncomfortable because I'm like, and that's the.

00:56:39
Speaker 2: Thing about this entire conversation is that, you know, for me, initially, forget Rachel does off because that was a different feeling for me. But when this came through on my algorithm, I really had to sit with myself and ask myself, why is this bothering you? Why is making you uncomfortable? You know, Caitlin Jenner, you know, she bothers me personally, but like, but but but her existence does not bother.

00:57:07
Speaker 1: Me because her existence as a woman is not taking away from biologically women who were born CIS women, Right, the existence of trans people isn't at the expense of CIS women.

00:57:20
Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people argue that, I think incorrectly, as you noted, Michael, that trans women are like posing a threat to CIS women's identity in some way, right, And I would argue that that's a mistake, and analogously would say the same thing is true for transracial individuals. I mean, so the thought that, for instance, like having the category of trans available is going to make it such that like all of these women are going to like choose to transition to become men because it's terrible being a woman, or something like, we would say that's that's that's a completely unfounded kind of concern. I would argue the same thing when it comes to transracial identity. I mean, for people who actually hold a transracial identity and who like try to align their public racial perception with their internal racial identity. This is like not mirror going on Halloween for putting on cost sort of like you know, integrated into their daily life. They're like insisting on this identity over time, it's like often costly for them, as well, because like coming out as transracial, you think, you know.

00:58:32
Speaker 3: How that's received.

00:58:33
Speaker 4: So I think I would just challenge the idea that transracial identity itself poses a threat to like the welfare of transgender people are people of color. Now, I think what does pose a threat is when people like weaponize transracial identity against right people of color transgender individuals. I'll just one other thing on this, A lot of the people in the trans racial like world, so if you kind of are in these online spaces so called r cta race change to another is often how you can like find some of the transracor trace communities.

00:59:12
Speaker 3: They are often also people who.

00:59:15
Speaker 4: Identify as like gender minorities too, So there's actually quite a bit of overlap in between among like the people who identify this way and like you know, trans people or other kind of minorities. And that's actually not unique to transracial identity. There's like kind of more overlap than you'd expect among some of these non normative identities. And so you could take that for whatever it's worth, but I would say that maybe there's more of like an opportunity for allyship rather than than.

00:59:48
Speaker 2: I think, you know this is I'm going to go back to the crates on this and both sorry, both of you are probably way too young to know this movie. When I was coming up, there was a movie called I think it was called soul Man and and it starred see Tommy Howell, who was a white person, and he I forget what happened, but he ended up needing money to go to college. He had done something and his parents wouldn't pay and what the only scholarship that was available was a scholarship that was available to African American students. So I can't remember what he did, like super Tan or whatever it is, and he took the space of someone, And I mean, and the movie is supposed to be kind of funny, but then of course they're sort of like these sort of cheesy moments where all of a sudden he's pulled over by a police officer when he's not doing anything and the light goes off for him, and now he understands I think, you know, I think that people are worried about things like that, Yeah, right, you know, like Rachel Dosal taking the space as the president of her local NAACP chapter. And I know that there are people who are also worried about transuh women athletes right taking the space of cisgendered women in athletics. And maybe this sits with me because I am a black woman and I will always be a black woman, and there isn't anything that I could do, oh frankly would want to do about it, right, Perhaps that is why this is so concerning to me. I have a trans person in my life who I had read what they had said to us, and and they are also feeling uncomfortable with this because they're there. Their points was that they are simply trying to exist in this world, not trying to take the space of a cisgendered person.

01:01:46
Speaker 3: I think all of.

01:01:47
Speaker 4: That's right, and I think, you know that transracial in individuals might say, you know, precisely the same thing that like, try.

01:01:55
Speaker 3: Trying to live as they are.

01:01:56
Speaker 4: They're not trying to, you know, take advantage of things that aren't intended for them. This is another thing that comes up sometimes, you know, people worry understandably about there being a kind of inability to differentiate between you know, a person who maybe as deserving of a kind of reparation or affirmative action benefit or something like that on account of having been descended from enslaved black people in America. You know, we do recognize all sorts of ways that people who have relevant histories might be eligible for different kinds of protections or benefits on the basis of those histories.

01:02:39
Speaker 3: So you could.

01:02:39
Speaker 4: Easily say, well, this is not intended for transracial black people, because the thing we're trying to do here is offer reparations for those who were descended from people, you know, who are enslaved in this country. And so now maybe if the claim was like, well, we're looking to, you know, try to lift up minorities for the sake of like diversity, then you might have a claim to including a transracial person for the sake of like advancing diversity. So it really kind of just depends on the particular argument. And this applies in the case of gender too, Right, So in some medical context it will be relevant that you know, you weren't born like a natal female, and most contexts it won't be relevant.

01:03:22
Speaker 2: Right.

01:03:22
Speaker 4: But if it's like, are you going to be eligible for you know, certain kinds of pregnancy related healthcare something that might be covered by insurance, that's not going to apply, right if you don't have the capacity to get pregnant.

01:03:34
Speaker 3: Right, So, so in other words, it's like you could you sort of have your cake and eat it too.

01:03:37
Speaker 4: In a way, you can kind of grant the identity as legitimate, But saying it doesn't mean that in all contexts we collapse everything and we just don't recognize any kinds of differences. And I think like Jewish conversion is a good example of this too, Right, So, like some Jews, like myself included, you know, are descended from like Holocaust survivors, and that might make some people eligible for inclusion in certain certain things, you know, I don't know, maybe if there's like, hey, we were doing a study on you know, we're doing some sort of a genetic study on people who were from Holocaust descending grandparents, and we want you. But that doesn't mean that, like we can't acknowledge and accept Jewish converts even though you know, they're not going to.

01:04:21
Speaker 3: Be eligible for that kind of study, let's say, or something like that.

01:04:24
Speaker 4: Right, So it's just a matter of like accepting the identities, but also accepting the ways that we have different paths into identities, right, some via birth. And this applies to you know, like think about adoptive parents think about naturalized citizens, like the ways that we come.

01:04:39
Speaker 3: To occupy categories.

01:04:43
Speaker 4: That wasn't merely through birth, but was through actually like going through a process.

01:04:48
Speaker 2: Does this topic come up in your classes?

01:04:51
Speaker 4: I do teach philosophy of race and racism, and I recently just I recently started talking about it, but because students requested it in the past, I really didn't.

01:05:01
Speaker 3: They were like, we wanted to translations.

01:05:04
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you just sort of like what what the what your feedback has been, what the reaction has been, because this is I think this is one of these things that we're going to It will come up again, and we're going to have to sort of think about this right, think about why we're feeling what we're feeling.

01:05:25
Speaker 4: I would say, you know, of course, any semester that I might be when I've spoken like students about it.

01:05:33
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I have students to take my.

01:05:35
Speaker 4: Classes sort of self select for philosophy, being philosophically minded, and so they're often I think comfortable with uncomfortable questions and sort of you know, thought experiments involving different kinds of identities and whatnot. But certainly I have had African American students who have a kind of like unease around it or who had like very strong feelings about the whole doals all controversy when that came out, But I will say that in all my conversations in general, undergraduate students seem to be more open minded to transracialism, I would say than a lot of other folks I speak to. Now, that's purely anecdotal, but I guess I feel like there might be a generational difference too. Also, because online we see so many people occupying identities that are different from their physical identities, right, So, like I think the virtual era also maybe makes people more open to different kinds of.

01:06:34
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

01:06:36
Speaker 2: It's been really interesting and I think this is a conversation that we're going to keep on having.

01:06:42
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for your time. It was nice meeting you.

01:06:45
Speaker 2: Thank you, Rebecca, Thank you.

01:06:48
Speaker 1: Let's get into tails from the DMS. These are all the freakydieki, wicked and wild things you send us into my DMS. Photos excluded.

01:06:56
Speaker 2: Do you get pictures? Oh?

01:06:57
Speaker 1: I get pictures? Really? Yeah, I'll show you later.

01:07:00
Speaker 2: I want to see yeah, yeah, I want to see what do you say, Melissa, Oh, what's going on? Friends? What do I always say? While Michael is a lawyer, he's not your lawyer, so you should get your own.

01:07:16
Speaker 1: Okay. This is.

01:07:19
Speaker 2: From are we finally going to do it? We're going to do it?

01:07:24
Speaker 1: Okay. I hyped this letter last week so hard that I got a lot of messages telling me that I need to read it. The reason why I hyped it is because it is actually wild, and I need to say before we get into this, this is so alleged. This is so very much. This is very alleged.

01:07:42
Speaker 2: Okay, it is alleged, but can we also just have a moment when this first came up, I read it and I said, huh.

01:07:52
Speaker 1: I don't think we can read this.

01:07:53
Speaker 2: I don't know if we should do this.

01:07:55
Speaker 1: I said, oh, yes we should.

01:07:57
Speaker 2: Michael was just like, yeah's so this is very alleged information.

01:08:03
Speaker 1: This is third hand information. This is an email right after our gay Panic episode which was months ago, where we talked about the case where there was a Jenny Jones show and.

01:08:17
Speaker 2: That back in the nineties and she had a show where it was you have a secret crush and this particular show, it was a gay man who had a crush on a straight man, and that man he went back to this man's house and he murdered this man. After which when he was arrested and was on trial, he then invoked this gay panic defense.

01:08:43
Speaker 1: And said he was the gayness freaked me out so much that I it was so gay that I murdered him. Correct And because it was so gay and freaked me out, I should get a reduced sentence because I was just freaking out.

01:08:57
Speaker 2: It was a seat of passion crush.

01:08:59
Speaker 1: And so we talked a lot about that, and this guy did go away from prison. He eventually got, you know, convicted of murder. It was like very clear he murdered this guy who went on Jenny Jones show and was like, I have a big crush on you. So someone wrote in and said, this is like so redacted. It is an Epstein file at this rate, Like there's just like one word that I can really read. But this is a person who was in the State of Michigan penitentiary allegedly with the murderer of that guy from the Jenny Jones Show. And this person says, as a gay man of a certain age, I was in the same facility as mister Schmidt's. To be clear, we weren't really friends, but would exchange hello nods when passing each other as we did attend some of the same programs. We weren't exactly strangers either. I was not at all that surprised when John made a pass at me in the library bathroom one day. This is turning into some like fan fiction heated rivalry. Yeah, however, this is this is the ai fruit and vegetables. However, I was surprised to learn allegedly that mister Schmids was a great bottom. I'm not a huge fan of outing people in the public forum, so I should also mention that most people in our prison were well aware of his years of quote public service. Anyhow, love you both, Tibits, and happy to report I've been crime free for about five years and loving life now.

01:10:41
Speaker 2: Love big gay job.

01:10:43
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Josh. This made my day to receive this email. Allegedly, it sounds like you're a service top for the gay Panic defense power bottom community in the Michigan Thank you for your service topping these bottoms.

01:11:00
Speaker 2: And again, I don't know how many times we could say that all of this is we don't know if it's real.

01:11:08
Speaker 1: It could be someone who's just fucking was completely It read pretty honest to me, and I changed some words around. I move things around to protect the innocent, and also because I know you thirsty bottoms are out there are just looking for any top. So I did change the do yes, and I changed Josh's Yeah. I changed it all. But I was like, oh, should we not read this because we're going to out someone. But then it was like, he fucking murdered that guy. I'm sorry, you're Maybe he kind of goes out there. I know the defense attorney, and we shouldn't say that. But you know what, I was comfortable enough reading it because I was like, this is insane and juicy.

01:11:46
Speaker 2: That's why I didn't like, don't this feels like I don't know.

01:11:55
Speaker 1: CJ loved itj ate it up.

01:11:58
Speaker 2: He was sipping t eating today that in the gator.

01:12:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. He sent it right over to me, he said, Michael, look at this one. Yes, all right, we got another email. Do you want to read it?

01:12:08
Speaker 2: Hello, Michael and Melissa. I've been a business owner for almost five years now, and due to some unfortunate situations that have occurred with a previous business partner. I've come to believe the civil legal system has no tea in trying to pursue an end with said business partner. That has been a lot of money spent just trying to get this person to respond to us. Eventually, my lawyer said they did not believe it was worth putting any more energy into. When discussing this matter with the friends, she brought up her divorce and how difficult her ex was making things even though the agreements had been reached up to this side. The message from society is that these legal documents protect us. But what are people really supposed to do when dealing with a bad faith actor who simply ignores these legal protections and even worse, they get away with it because there are so few ways to enforce legal agreements. That's actually a really good question. Yeah, a person could easily spend a fortune trying to enforce these things because it appears to be the only way to enforce civil manners. What are people supposed to do when trapped in this cycle? Girl?

01:13:15
Speaker 1: Eat them up? I love it. Thank you so much for sending this in best regards A for to not to use my full name. Okay of course this is I don't think we said any name it. Also, this is totally anonymous. I will say that. I mean I'm a defense attorney in criminal court and immigration court. I'm not in civil court at all, and that is by choice. But I do think that civil litigators, in civil lawsuits, where we have plaintiffs trying to seek some sort of you know, retribution, trying to get some damages, it is an economic question and it really sucks like there isn't I don't have an answer where I'm like, this is what you should do, especially because like the fact pattern is pretty vague. It just says I'm trying to get my out of a business partner. That is kind of like anytime someone gets fired from a job and they seek an immigrant employment attorney. It's going to come down to the economics of the case. Is the hours a lawyer is going to put in on the case going to equal enough of a settlement to recoup that labor that they put into the case. And there's right and wrong in there. Right, like, these are businesses. We unfortunately all exist in a capitalistic healthscape. But I do think that something that stuck out to me was your lawyer saying they didn't believe it was worth putting time and energy into. I unfortunately have to have that conversation with people more often than not, is this is not worth your emotional energy and it's really not worth my time. The economics of this case are just not going to work out. This is the best thing to do for you. Sometimes people come to me, even with like an immigration case, where I'm like, the amount of money you're going to spend on this, fighting this, working on this, and the likelihood of a positive outcome is so low you seriously need to be thinking about whether or not you can pay rent and feed your kids with this money versus hiring me to work on it. I always have to have those like really got honest conversations.

01:15:17
Speaker 2: And we need these are really good questions. Is it in the end? I think maybe? Again, I'm not a lawyer either, but like asking yourself, is it worth the time and money just to make a point? Right? I Mean, I understand when you feel like you've been wronged by somebody, you want to like get them for it, right, But like, in the end, what will you really get other than satisfaction? Is bankrupting yourself worth the satisfaction of being right.

01:15:51
Speaker 1: Yes, I read this thing on I want to say, an article, but I know it was an Instagram. The best revenge is losing access to you. That is like the best revenge rather than yeah, mailing them a lemon every day. So I just think, like, I mean, it's a conversation to have with yourself. Again, there's not a lot of information about your specific cases of like a legal problem to solve here, but I do think it comes down to this, like we use lawsuits for emotional reasons sometimes many times these are people with emotions that we are managing when we're dealing with these suits. And and there's that's very that's a very real reality. There's like a social work component to all of this work. So I think that is a real honest conversation to have with yourself about whether or not this is right and whether or not this is a good use of your money, time and emotional labor. It might be yeah, and like I'm not saying it's not right, but it also might not.

01:16:50
Speaker 2: Like how long you've been doing this, you know, keep digging this hole.

01:16:53
Speaker 1: Right, right, maybe it's better to take that money and do something that's really going to help you heal, yeah, versus making.

01:16:59
Speaker 2: A like start a different business, like why you know, ask yourself why you're doing this? I mean, I get it. Sometimes people they just want to win so bad. Yeah, and they just keep doing something that's valid. No, no, it's and I'm not saying that that's a good thing or a bad thing. You need to decide that is a good thing or a backside for you.

01:17:19
Speaker 1: That's a good conversation having yourself it is. That's rough, or just mail them a lemon. Thank you so much for joining us. I'll see you next week in Core because I'm suing your ass. This has been an exactly right production recorded at iHeart Studios, hosted by Me Michael Foot.

01:17:40
Speaker 2: And Me Melissa malbranch. Our producer is CJ. Ferroni.

01:17:43
Speaker 1: This episode was edited by Nicholas Galucci.

01:17:46
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain and our guest booker is Patria Cottner.

01:17:50
Speaker 1: Our theme song was composed by Tom Bride Vocal with artwork from Charlotte Delarue and Manessa Lilac, with photography by Brad Obono.

01:17:57
Speaker 2: Brief Recess is executive produced by Karen Kill, Gareth Georgia Hart, Stark and Danielle Kramer.

01:18:02
Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram at Department of Redundancy Department or on TikTok at Michael foot.

01:18:07
Speaker 2: And I'm on both Instagram and TikTok as Melissa Malbranch.

01:18:10
Speaker 1: Got legal questions, reach out at brief Recess at exactlyrightmedia dot com. Listen to brief Recess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, and of course we're a podcasts with video. Search for brief Recess on YouTube