Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep43 - Puppy Camp for Litters

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

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And this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,

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we bring the conversation.

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This episode is about splitting up litters

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before they go to their puppy homes.

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And here's the question:

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I had an interesting convo with a friend.

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Her friend has a litter of eight week
old puppies,

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and she's placing them out to her friends
until they're ten weeks old.

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They decided
it would be good for socialization

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and to prevent separation
anxiety for the puppies

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until they go to their permanent homes
at ten weeks.

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That doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

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Anyone have experience with this?

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And then we had a follow up question -

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Why didn't she think it was a good idea?

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And she said:

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the breeder

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wants to pick her puppy at ten weeks,
but doesn't want the puppies

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together that long because her breed is
too, quote unquote sharp.

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My thinking is that it's better

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to send them to their new homes,
in that case.

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The breed is Finnish Lapphunds.

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I want to say, before I jump in,

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that this practice is a lot more prevalent
than I knew.

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I have done it on occasions
with my own litters,

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but it's really a thing,
and I just didn't realize

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how many breeders do this routinely.

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So my answer specifically to her

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is that yes,
I have farmed out some puppies,

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especially when I've had a big litter
and it has worked out great for me.

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The first time I did
this was a litter of nine,

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and there was one puppy in that litter

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that just was developmentally
way ahead of the other puppies.

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She had her legs under her faster
and she was running roughshod

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over the less facile puppies.

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They were like bobble heads,
and she was like a fleet footed pony.

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When my mentor evaluated the puppies,
she said,

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you have to get this puppy out of your
house as quickly as possible.

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So I sent her to live

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with, now, that was when she was
seven weeks old, I sent her to live

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with friends who had Newfoundland's
and German Shepherds,

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which gave this young lady
a very different perspective on life.

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And I'm happy to report that she grew up

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to be a lovely dog
and was just a gentle and kind

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big sister to the miniature Dachshund
that she lived with.

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So we took a puppy that was on the road

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to being maybe a little bit of a bully,

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and turned her into just a lamb chop

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that lived a long and happy life
with a tiny breed.

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So I'm going to say for sure,
strategically,

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sometimes it's better to get puppies
out of your house

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in that 7 to 10 week old range
before they go to their ultimate homes.

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And we'll talk more about
why having this intermediary home

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is sometimes better
than going to their ultimate pet home.

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A little bit later in the episode.

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I have also done camps for my puppies,

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like when I go to my national specialty
and I have a litter.

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I will break up the puppies and send them
to people for camp while I'm away.

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Always has worked out great for me.

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In direct answer to her question about

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whether it's a good idea or not.

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I don't think you can answer this
in a vacuum.

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Who are the friends that are going
to be raising these puppies?

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And what dogs do they have?

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If they're experienced and competent
dog people with fabulous adults

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that are going to help
raise these puppies, that's one thing.

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If they're novice dog owners with reactive

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dog, that's another.

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Are they going to do the Puppy Culture
protocols, active enrichment,

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training, socialization, or are
they just going to warehouse the puppies?

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Are the

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breeders themselves elderly
and not very mobile?

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And are those breeders placing the puppies
in active family households

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with young children
who might do more than the breeder would?

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Or are the young and active breeders

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who are putting the puppies with a shut-in
elderly couple?

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So again, I don't think you can say

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whether this is a good or a bad idea

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without more specific context.

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So the querent also had a question about

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the puppies
learning bite inhibition from each other

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because apparently in this situation,
the puppies are going to be sent out

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in singles.
They're not going out in groups.

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They're going to be going in singles.

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And she wants to know how is it possible
that they're going to learn

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adequate bite inhibition
if there are no other puppies around?

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This could be its own podcast, but

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let's just say that bite inhibition

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is one of those words
that just kind of gets bandied around

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and I think is an umbrella term
that covers a lot of different things.

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So let's just break this down
a little bit.

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My answer is yes.

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The puppies have to go through this
sort of theory of mind process,

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where they realize that the other puppies
are living things with feelings,

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and they normally do
learn that from play with littermates.

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But that's normally happened
by the time they're eight weeks old.

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So bite

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inhibition in the sense of
just not grabbing a puppy

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and dragging it around, or biting so hard
that the other puppy cries.

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I mean, if they haven't learned that
by eight weeks old,

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you know you're on a different level
with that puppy.

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Okay?

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It's going to require a little
more intervention by eight weeks old,

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they should really have a theory of mind
not to be railing on the other puppies,

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but there's a

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whole sort of social negotiation thing

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that also falls under this
umbrella of bite inhibition.

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And that is not something that

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is necessarily
taught by play with other litter mates,

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and often is best
taught by adults and not other puppies.

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So in this case, at eight weeks old,
which is the age

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that a lot of people
still do place their puppies,

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I would not say that littermates
are necessarily at all going to be

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the best way to learn that aspect

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of what we call bite inhibition.

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This is a rabbit hole
that I could go way down,

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but I'm going to stop here and say,
if you have not read

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the Weaning Pen Riot's article

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that is in Madcap University,

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go to Madcap University/

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Free resources/articles/Weaning pen

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riots, written by Suzanne Shelton.

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She just did
an outstanding job of explaining

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why some puppies just need to sit
at the grown up table for a while.

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So, circling
back to the original question.

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I think we just have to take

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a couple things at face value here.

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First of all, that the breeder
is at least historically right about this

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breed of puppy,
that they're going to become combative

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between 8 and 9 weeks old,
because that's not unusual.

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There are breeds that are like that.

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And the breeders are not going
to make her pick until ten weeks old,

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which is not out of the ordinary.

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For sure, under those circumstances,

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it is better to place those puppies
temporarily with pro-level homes

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that have good adult dogs
that are puppy friendly

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and ready to help raise those puppies
and be good nannies

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and nanos,
than it would be to place those puppies

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with novice puppy owners
who either don't have a dog

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or have a reactive dog, or have a dog
that just isn't puppy savvy

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and maybe not thrilled, at least at first,
about a new puppy in the house.

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Okay,
so let's say you're in this situation

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and you're listening to me
and you're saying, Jane, I'm sorry.

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I'm just not convinced.
I'm not comfortable with this.

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I don't want to put my puppies out
into transitional homes.

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I want to keep them for the full
ten weeks.

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In the words of the original poster,

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she wants to establish a chain of custody
with these puppies.

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Win, lose or draw.

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She wants to be fully responsible
for them.

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Since we're taking it at face value
that the breeder is right,

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that these puppies could potentially
become combative 8 to 9 weeks old.

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They're going to be too sharp
with each other.

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What is a breeder to do?

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Well, here's a few thoughts.

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Number one,

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one would hope by eight weeks old

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that the breeder would have
at least made a cut.

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That there's a short list that you're
not going to have more than, let's say,

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five puppies out of the eight puppies
that at least three of them,

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if eight weeks is the time that you're
placing these puppies,

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that they can be on their
merry way to their pet homes.

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Also,

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although we're going to take it as truth

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that historically the breeders right

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about these puppies becoming combative

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if the breeder is not one
to do Puppy Culture

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or Puppy Culture type
protocols, enrichment and socializing,

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chances are that you're going to be able
to squeeze out

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a little more good behavior
time from these puppies

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because they're going to be enriched,
they're going to be busy.

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You're going to be doing
better management of the weaning

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pen with our protocols.

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So ultimately, maybe
they're going to have to be separated,

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but you're maybe going to be able
to shorten the amount of time.

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So you might let's say instead of needing
absolutely

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to separate them at nine weeks,
hey, maybe nine and a half.

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So you're going to have a smaller
number of puppies

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for a shorter amount of time
that you have to run individually.

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But hey, you know,
that's part of the breeding game,

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especially when we're in these cooperative
sort of arrangements.

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So let

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me read you some of these responses
because

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I was surprised
at the amount of conversation it generated

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and how many people testified that, yeah,
we do this and it works great.

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So here's a comment.

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I do agree that sending puppies home
before they get pugnacious with the litter

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mates is a very normal reason
people place puppies at eight weeks.

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That's a perfectly reasonable strategy,

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but I think fostering
the puppies out is also very reasonable.

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I've done this with older puppies
even as short as one sleepover,

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and it's super helpful socialization.

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And here's one that says, nice memories.

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Thank you.

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Many years ago, I bought that puppy.

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I met them at five weeks, and he was
totally walking all over his siblings.

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Talked to a couple of knowledgeable
friends, one a breeder of a similar breed,

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and they agreed
it would be better to get him early.

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But I was behaviorally knowledgeable

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and had excellent adult dogs to help.

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Got him at seven weeks.

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Had him until cancer took him at 11.

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He's been gone a while now,
but I still miss him every day.

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So after my little tangent, I agree

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that we don't have enough information
to judge.

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She's referring specifically to this case
that, you know,

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we need to know who these homes are
that the puppies are going to

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before we decide
if it's ultimately a good idea.

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Here's another one.

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I've done it,
and it's a great way to generalize

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adaptability
and maximize different experiences,

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especially if you're using people
who know how to build puppy foundations.

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I keep my puppies to 15 weeks and do this

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every single one of my puppies road
to their new homes, quiet in the crate.

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No potty accidents, no crying overnight.

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All the families were very impressed
with how great

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they were.

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Here's another one.

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This is something I recommend to my puppy
owners as well.

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Have a trusted
someone, family, friend or trainer.

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Watch their dog for a week
or two during adolescence.

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In my experience,
a change of pace as long as it's a

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well structured change,
does them a world of good.

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My breed is German Shorthaired Pointers.

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They can be overly attached
and have a knack

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for convincing their owners
to be overly attached to.

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Another one.

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I do that.

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I plan staycations for the puppies
and rotate them.

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By the time they really are going home.

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It's a breeze for them to adapt.

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Another comment,
it's called going to camp in my breed.

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Here's another one.

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We have found great success
with farming out pups, young dogs.

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It's not a regular practice we do,
but we've done it and find it builds

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confidence.

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Another one, my mentor and Malinois

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always did this quote going to sleepaway
camp, unquote.

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The puppies go for a few nights
with trusted friends and trainers

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to live life with them and interact
with their stable adult dogs.

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They rotate it around between trainers
homes and ended up incredibly bold,

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adaptable and resilient.

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Another, one local service

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dog program
I volunteer with places Puppies in pairs

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from 8 to 12 weeks
and then as singles from 12 weeks on.

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This seems to work well.

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The pups stress on getting
to their final foster at 12 weeks is low.

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Their success of becoming service
dogs is above 60%.

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Just using Puppy Culture helped this too

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volunteer
breeding homes do not have the capacity

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to manage the needs of 6 to 12, eight week
old puppies.

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That last week can be quite a challenge.

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Pups are sent to experienced fosters
for those four weeks

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who reinforce the crate training.

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Puppies are all raised with Puppy Culture,
and they get two enrichment

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visits per week.

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Another one.

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I sort of do this.

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I take the puppies at eight weeks

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and do the first two weeks
before they go to their family.

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The transition from the litter
to a single dog sleeping in a crate

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is a lot for a puppy, and owners
will often infantilized their puppy

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and start sleeping by the crate
or not using it at all.

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And don't give the puppy
any time apart from them.

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If it fusses.

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I say quote, we don't let the cuteness
affect us, unquote.

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And we raise the puppy as we would
if it was our own pet dog.

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Here's another one.

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This is something I do
for a breeder friend of mine.

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This is something we offer
for new families who want.

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It works especially well for a puppy
that's going to a first time dog owner

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benefits them
that the puppy is more squared away

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before they get it,
which of course benefits the puppy too.

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There was a lot more

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people mention in favor,

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so let's talk
to some of the detractors now.

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Here's one.

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I understand the extra two weeks
is an important learning time.

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The puppies learn so much from mom.

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On the flip side,
hopefully mom is a good mom.

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So I think what she's saying is that

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the 8 to 10 weeks
is, in her estimation, important

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for the mother to be with the puppies
so that they can learn from the mother.

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And my response was that
there are always exceptions to the rule,

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but the majority of medium to large
breed dams

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are done with puppies by 5 to 6 weeks old,

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and the other dogs in the household are
raising the puppies at that point anyway.

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Another naysayer.

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It's the hardest part of having puppies
is the taking care of them,

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like cleaning up after them
and listening to the crying

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barking for the last 7 to 10 weeks.

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Of course you would want to do this.

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00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,600
What happens if they get parvo or coccidia
from a neighbor's dog

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or an accident happens?

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00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:04,520
I don't know.

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00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,320
I see how it sounds good,
easy for the breeder,

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but it could be a total disaster too.

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Well, I mean, you know, point taken.

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Like the original poster was saying,

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you're breaking the chain of custody. So,

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you know, you are losing some control over
what happens with your puppy.

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00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,560
But that again, just goes more to

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selecting the right homes, picking
good people.

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There's no reason
to think that any of my breeder

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or trainer friends
who would be suitable to do this

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would be any more likely
to expose the puppies

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to parvo or disease, than at my house,

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I also just want to say

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listening to the barking,
crying for the 7 to 10 weeks.

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00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,000
I mean,

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you know, if you're doing Puppy Culture,
that's not what you're listening to.

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It's not really a consideration.

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00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:04,760
It's more a question of getting everything
done in the 7 to 10 weeks.

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The puppies themselves are a breeze.

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And if you're doing litter training,

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the cleanup should be nothing
by the time they're ten weeks old.

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So, thanks to the original poster
for writing in,

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I really enjoyed the conversation
that her question generated.

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By the way, if you are not part
of our discussion group already,

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00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:30,360
please do join us at the Puppy Culture
Discussion Group on Facebook.

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00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,360
If you like this podcast,
you'll love the Puppy Culture film

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00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,680
available at puppyculture.com.

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00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:40,160
Breeders.

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00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,680
Have you stocked up on your Puppy Culture
exercise booklets?

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00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:48,120
Nice bulk discounts for orders of four
or more copies

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00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,400
available at puppyculture.com.

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00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,320
Well, that's it for this time.

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Thanks for listening. Bye bye.