Manoush Zomorodi Interview. Ep 51

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, practicing position and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode fifty one. We have a special guest, Manusham, already on the podcast today. She'll be talking all things tech and urban parenting and doing the Note to Self podcast, writing board and brilliant all sorts of wonderful stuff. So we're really looking forward to talking with her later getting some tips for our kids and tech as well. But we're recording this in mid July or air late July. Summer is in full swing. We've been doing lots of camp Sarah, how about you, what are you doing on the camp front? Yeah, us too, So you know, interestingly, when this air is on July twenty fourth, will have been like we're almost done with our summer by that point, which is craziness. But yeah, we've been doing day camp for both big kids. We kind of took the easy route and I put them in the same camp for all summer, and I haven't heard any complaints so far. So I'm hoping for simple until they get older and start requesting a bunch of different specialty camps. Because for now, it was nice not to have to do anything elaborate in terms of piecing together different weeks. I will I will say they offer some sort of elective weeks, so that was nice. So same camp, but I can put I put Annabel in like hip hop dance week because she wanted to do that, and cheerleading week, but same drop off, same pickup, same legiation. That's a nice ad. We've had different specialty camps, and it's kind of there are a lot of drop off and pick up logistics and you know, kind of shortens the workday a little bit. I've been, you know, trying to maintain a good positive mindset about you know, getting to have time in the car with kids individually. But yeah, the pickups and drop ups can be this like it's car line for school, but like worse because you know, it's not uh that is organized. Although this one camp that my eight year old is in is very well run in the sense of it's a long car line, but they have like music playing and they have this sort of choreographed thing of like moving the cars forward. I mean, if you if you can't make it go fast, I guess at least you can try to be fun and like, you know, play loud Backstreet Boys or something so funny. Yeah. Yeah, so we're dealing with that. The little guy started camp this week. Oh my gosh, is this his first year? It is? He is just doing a morning day camp at the preschool that he's going to in the fall. So far, it's been mostly okay, although I'm a little concern. I don't know. So the first day he was like all gung ho and it was great. This morning, when I dropped him off, he was clinging to me. That was a little bit worrying because it doesn't he's not real clinger type guy. I was like, what happened, you know? But yesterday he actually told me he had gotten a time out. I'm like, oh my goodness. That he's kind of heartbreaking, heartbreaking. I mean, I'm sure he deserved it, but like, like, I don't think it was arbitrarily or overly harsh or anything. I'm pretty sure it wasn't. But you know, yeah, he's he needs to learn that when you are with big groups of kids who are not your family, there are rules and you have to follow them and there are probably consequences if you don't. And I know it's a harsh lesson when you're three, but this is how we civilize people in the world. So true, Yeah, there we go. Otherwise would all be locked in cages. I bet he's I bet he's still enjoying his experience. Well, I think he is too. He's definitely, you know, having popsicles, although he was complaining that it was not the right color popsicle. He really wanted green and he was getting orange and then he got red and sort of frowned about this, But then he actually said, you get what you get and you don't get upset. So I assume that somebody told him that that is the classic. It's very interesting. I mean it is sort of a zen zen Zen statement if you think about it. Yeah, yeah, like your own reactivity to this doesn't really matter because you're gonna get what You're gonna get what you get, and a red popsicle is still good even if it's not great. Oh my goodness. And you guys are planning, you know you're you're in full on trip planning logistics, right, I'm like, yees. So it definitely makes me think about your little photo, your historic photo of going to the UK with like two suitcases and five people. Yeah, ready for my list of what we're bringing. Two car seats, one booster seat, the snap ago for Genevieve's stroller, a travel crib, and the ergo. And that's kind of minimal. I mean, I think we're not gonna bring our like big stroller, although I will say it's been a hero in prior trips because it also serves as like a luggage caddy because the double bob you can fit a bunch of suitcases. So you're like, oh, I don't need your little wheelie thing. I have my own, my own. I think we're gonna leave it here, and I just I am looking forward to the day my kids are older and you don't need to bring such a coot. Yeah you're traveling. No, there's a narrow window where you need none of that stuff, but you need none of the teenage stuff. And we're we're sort of reveling in that when we when we have the big kids on on trips. Yeah, no traveling with the travel crib. Oh my goodness. Yeah yeah, because otherwise I'm relying. I mean, I guess my friend was like, Oh, we're just gonna have our baby sleep in our bed. I'm like that sounds terrible. Actually sound I had kids like all night exactly exactly. You're never real CoA sleepers with that. Well, this is gonna be a great episode. We're looking forward to it. So we'll dive right into Manush. Well, we are really excited to have Manush on the program today. And before we introduce her, I think Sarah is particularly excited to have her on Sarah And do you want Sarah wanted to do her little fangirl moment here. Oh yeah, I love fangirl moments. Oh good No, So I never do this, but I totally have a blog, and I was writing on the blog. I was like, I'm just guessed. I'm really excited about So then people started like, y is it? Is it? No? So when they find out they'll be super excited because I've been listening to you. Beyonce would be good, but I've been listening to you and your podcasts for like forever. I mean I listened to it when it was New Tech City and then I have of course hung on for a note to self and actually, you, for some reason tend to be this common topic of conversation of Thanksgiving because because my brother in law lives in New York and he also like loves your podcast, and we are very well your podcast that you had. We are very different people, but like you're our common ground, like, oh, we just love Manush. So they can't talk politics, but they can talk that's actually very interesting to me. Well, we'll continue that conversation offline, and I'm curious to know what he thinks of my new podcast because I'm guessing that maybe he's not as big of a fan. I don't know that he has checked it out yet, but I will force him. It's okay, Yeah, you've got a few months till Thanksgiving. Yeah, exactly. She rehearsed our attack exactly, so we were super excited, and Laura and I came up with a lot. We definitely want you to talk all about your new podcast, which is very exciting, but we also thought our listeners would love to hear a little bit more of your very interesting backstory and how you've managed it all, you know, as a woman and as a mother as well. Yeah, or not managed it or not? Okay, Lauren knows. Yeah. I need your podcast probably more than anyone. So I find it quite interesting that I'm on it. I do think, like you know, we all have hacks to share those, so so I'm excited to be here. Well great, Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about your career journey and also your your family situation. Yeah. So my background is that I was a hardcore news producer, breaking news producer and reporter for the BBC for Reuters, and then I realized I had no life after nine to eleven, and I quit running around the world and of course met the man that I married six months later, because you got to stop moving to meet someone. And so now I am still a reporter journalist, but I got into podcasts about Let's see twenty thirteen, twenty twelve, so like five six years ago before they went sort of mainstream. And we have two kids. We have an eleven year old and an eight year old. And my husband is also a journalist. He's a TV reporter, So lots and lots of juggling, lots of juggling. But and I did take you know, I took some off ramps when I had my first kid and the second one too. That sort of period was very, very very tough for me. I did a ted talk and sort of talked about like I had extremely like the first one was extremely colicky, and it really rocked my world completely and made me rethink what I wanted to do with my life, what I wanted my focus to be on. That I didn't want to do journalism, but that I really wanted it to be creatively satisfying, intellectually satisfying, and that if I was going to be away from my kids, which I needed to be financially, but also that my brain needed to be I needed to feel that it was worth it that I was growing myself when I was away from them. So yeah, so now I have a half a block commute, which changes things. I just quit my job at New York Public Radio two months ago to start my own company with my former executive producer. She and I jump ship together, and we are documenting the entire experience on our new show, which is called Zigzag, And part of that is she's divorced, she has a six year old and a very long commute, and so that is definitely one of the storylines in our new show. Yeah, and you know, we both read your book Bored and Brilliant, and it's interesting you talk about the your oldest being really colicy, because part of what inspired your board and Brilliant is all those long walks you took around New York his little tummy being unable to do anything else. How did that all play out? Yeah, So the way it played out was this was pre smartphone. I can't even believe it so eleven years ago exactly, because my son and the iPhone were born both in June of two thousand and seven. But I didn't have a smartphone. Most of us didn't because actually, yesterday, Nerdy Fact for you, was the ten year anniversary of the App Store, which is kind of interesting. So in any case, this kid would not sleep unless he was moving at all times. So I basically walked, putting in about ten to fifteen miles a day walking, and I only had a flip phone. But also like the minute you stopped, he would start screaming. And so you get to that point you know where you are irrational, You know this place right where you haven't slept, and you can't be like, well, you know, maybe I should stop because then maybe he'll get used to screaming, and then maybe I'll get used to his scream I don't know, it just we spiraled into each other. But what happened was all those hours of walking was really when I started to I didn't know it at the time, but when you allow when I was bored out of my mind, when you are bored, you and you allow your mind to space out, Essentially what you do is you ignite a network in your brain. This is research that I went on to do five years later. And you ignite the default mode in your brain. And then the default mode you do your most creative thinking, You do problem solving. You do something that I had never heard of called autobiographical planning. This is where you look back at your life, you take note of the highs and the lows, and then you look forward and you figure out, well, where am I going to go next? You tell yourself the story of you. So actually all that walking was extremely important work, and that was when I just sort of started to plan and plot and figure out, you know, how I was going to rise like a phoenix from the ashes of my colicky mess. To be clear, it took years to get out of that hole. And you know, and then I had another kid, so you get right. She wasn't as bad, but you were probably a little bit more prepared for it, a little more seasoned. Well, I got more help, that's fore. Yeah, although there's that too, yeah, well, and so that's part of it too. I mean the logistics of you know, having this job with the public radio and having the two kids. So minush. You know, I've I've asked you about your logistics when I've interviewed you in the past, but our listeners don't know that. And I know you've you've structured your life in interesting ways and your work life to try to make it work with your your two kids and your busy public radio schedule. So why don't you talk about what what that set up has been and how. Yeah, so it's changed because I quit my job and I still in my own company, and so in some ways that's great because now I no longer have to go into Manhattan. I live in Brooklyn and I joined a co working space which is one block away from my house, so the commute time is rad but I get I think. A couple of things that I've done is Fridays. I always do school pickup on Fridays. I feel like there's just I need one day where I see what's going on on the playground. I look the teachers in the eye just sort of get a sense of what's going on. And I have to admit Fridays are the days that usually my youngest, my daughter falls apart. She just I think she's been keeping it together all week and she just collapses into a puddle. So I've kind of have to steal myself for it. We don't do a lot after I do school pickup, but in any case, I try to make sure that I'm there. The one secret weapon I have had, which really has given me a very unfair advantage is my mother. Since my son, who's now eleven, was born, she has come and spent two nights a week with us, and that has meant that I know I can work late, or I know at least one of those nights if there's a work event, I can go without having to deal with a babysitter and all the rest of it, I can be a little bit more flexible. And that really when my kids were newborns, or not newborns but babies, that meant that there were two days a week that I worked. We didn't have a nanny at first or a babysitter so until they were in school, So that has I mean for people who don't have family around, I tip my hat to you. It is incredibly hard. So the one thing that I do have a disadvantage of is that my husband is perpetually on call, so he never knows when he'll have to leave in the morning, and he'll never know when he'll be home at night, so every night we kind of wait to see what's going on. He covers politics, so those two things kind of balance out. Since since I've been more successful and since I've written the book, like, the one thing that I have been doing more of is traveling, and Laura, I'm always curious to hear like you know, as someone who also just had a book out, like how did you handle like traveling for your book and giving talks and all those things. I find that I love being away, but the scheduling is so stressful. Yeah, it is. I mean, and when you have little kids. But that's that's the thing of having a good nanny who can deal with those logistics, right, you know, that's when you don't have your family nearby, That's that's what you wind up doing. I'm also curious about like the whole urban parenting things book and I have kind of not interesting. Yeah, in life, what do you think there are any particular challenges of having stayed in the city or you know, the trade offs in that versus Yeah, people sort of fleet to New Jersey by the time they do well. My kids walk to school, which has been awesome. They go to the local public school. It's three blocks away. It's great. Is that why you have your house where it is? Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah. Every decision that anybody makes here is a real estate decision based on school district. And it's it was either like we could you know, yeah, it was a it's a calculation that everybody makes. Like, logistics are totally underrated. People love to use like sort of passion and where you really feel like you belong, but like you get everything within a really small square radius and that makes a huge difference in life. I think that is so true. And I think about my kids what their life is like. It's like they live in a little village. You know. Brooklyn is really, in many ways just a little series of villages, and so we happen to live in a village where it has a very big Italian presence, and there are lots of little Italian stores and specialty gourmet shops. There's also a lot of in the last couple of years, a lot of hipsters and coffee shops. But their world is quite small, you know. They they walk to school, and they walk to the playground, and sometimes they take the subway, but not that regularly. They probably do it most with like school trips and stuff. I will say, on the downside, I have two pretty high strung kids who I think, well, uh, you know, apple to them all far from the I was gonna say that there may be genetics there. So I think all of us would benefit from having a little more nature in our lives, like I do think like I was seeing like at the end of school, I was like, I think my kid just needs to like lie down by a stream the like half an hour, do you know, what I mean, just the there's not a lot of decompression. Yeah, and the East River isn't really that stream. We actually live next to the Guanas, so it's super fun enough stream. Yeah. So, you know, on the one hand, like my kids really appreciate good food. They you know, they I think are exposed to all kinds of different people. The school they go to is extremely diverse, and all those things are wonderful. But I do think the noise and the rush rush rush is exhausting. I find it exhausting. So it's a always balance. Yes, Now speaking of things that are I was going to say challenging for kids, you know, I wanted to pivot to your technology experts. Yes, that's what I was going to ask about as well. This is a I think something our listeners are super interested in, and you are in the perfect position to discuss your life. Yeah. Yeah, eleven year old is your oldest. That's probably really becoming an issue. Like starting, it is starting, And so as someone who has covered technology as a as a straightforward reporter, you know, very much like here's what's happening in the stock market and all those things, and then transitioning into looking at how technology has changed society, how it's affected our basic cultural things that we believe in, our ethics, the way that we fall in love, the way that we parent, all of those things. You know, I have felt as though, like, my poor kids are my little laboratory, right. But what I think I was early too was an understanding of just how powerful these our devices are when it comes to well grabbing our attention. The attention economy was something that I sort of helped get people talking about, and so I have been you know, I also feel conflicted because, on the one hand, I really do believe that the reason I was able to go back to work as fast and furiously as I was was because of the smartphone. I was able to coordinate, you know, four lives, five lives on the go, and I am grateful to that. I think many working mothers, well all mothers are working mothers, but many of us find that, like, there's no way you could make it all happen without the smartphone. So I see both sides, and in terms of like habits for my kids, I mean, like, I know why my kid is grouchy after I've asked him to turn off the iPad because he's had his half hour. It's hard for them to. My kid has trouble transitioning to begin with. So any kid is struggling to transition when they've been when they're doing something on an iPad that is stimulating them. And for multiple reasons. For because the business model of probably the app is built on keeping them glued to it, because of the design of the way that the games are those sons do let them play two DUTs? Oh hell no, no, no, no, Two DUTs your kryptonite, My kryptonite. It still is. I but that's funny. I haven't played it since I started my company. Isn't that interesting? Really? Well, I'm scratching some sort of psychic it's actually that is true. Wow, okay, breakthrough here. I just want my kids to be lud Eites, and I don't want them to feel like you know, I know those kids, remember, like those kids who weren't allowed to watch TV and then they came over to your house and all they wanted to do is watch TV. Like, I do not want my kids to be like that. But I also like have realized, like it is my responsibility the age that they are right now, to put parameters around it. And some parents don't need to do that. I think every kid is so different and all of the ways that these devices play to us is so different. They are very personalized, right, Like It's not like with TV it's either on or off. It is every device is set up to be specifically attractive to you. And So what I'm trying to do and what I certainly try to discuss with all the parents that I give talks to, is this idea of not shaming or shaking your finger or anything like that, but having like a conversation like, huh, why do you think it's like? Why do you think that that has so many points there? What happens when you spend more time on it? Do you get rewarded with you know, sort of breaking it down depending on the age of your child. Why you feel this way towards it? I sat in on an amazing eighth grade class. The teacher is using the book, and I hear from a lot of teachers who use the board and brilliant book as a way to you know, externalize the conversation about how technology changes our behavior so they don't have to be the one saying put it away. They use the book as a like, let's look at chapter five, like, why let's talk about this idea of advertising and targeted advertising and how that has she's calling it the intention economy. What do you think that is? Like, so, I think you know kids are super smart, they don't like part of computer, computer science or digital literacy is more than just learning to code or how to identify a source. It's about understanding the psychology, the neuroscience, the design, the business behind the technology, and sort of being able to also check in with yourself, like why do you feel yucky after you've spent three hours on Instagram? You know, let's talk about it. So so true, we all feel lucky after right, I know, although it's yeah, and like what you were saying, kids are very different. I mean we just got the eleven year old phone. Which kind did you get? Well, it's it's like an older iPhone and we didn't get him the unlimited data, so he has to kind of economize on it, which has been an interesting experience for him. And I asked why why eleven? Like why this moment for you? Because he's starting middle school and so that's pretty much what a lot of the parents that we respect had done. I know, there's that whole wait until eighth, although I swear it's just because weight and aid rhyme. Yeah, No, I think you're right about that. I mean, if the words seven, if they'd come up with something that rhyme was seven, do that. It's not because it's like research and pure reviewed journals, because there isn't as much. That's a new phenomenon. But anyway, well, we're going to get one because my kid, you know, he's gonna go to middle school too, and he's gonna have to ride the subway by himself. Oh, I would totally get again to ride the subway by himself. Yeah, I mean what else are you going to do? Like totally he has to ask the crazy stranger for their phone. I mean that's not better, but shout out too. I think it's fatherly or there's a lot of places actually that have good lists of dumber phones. Yeah, and so I don't want to get him something that has games on it because I think I love the dumb phone idea. Yeah, I think that's the route we make up. My husband is obsessed with actually like light phones and like he actually himself he's a surgeon, and his phone is like this one hundred dollars beater phone that he's very proud of that it doesn't work well, so it's not addicting. It's an interesting, uh backwards way of doing this, but he can get texts and yeah, and his most important work is it has nothing to do with the phone, right, so exactly, So he likes the idea that he can't. But then sometimes he'll take videos of the kids and it looks like it's from like two thousand and three, and I'm like, really, we didn't even two thousand and three, Yes, exactly, exactly. Well, so tell us about you your new and our listeners as well about your your new project, because this is very exciting. Yeah, yeah, journey. So I am not hosting Note to Self anymore, although I do hope to continue to do I know, I know that's so sad. Well, maybe you'll have to revive some of those forms, but for now. So my executive producer, also a mom, she and I decided we wanted to do our own thing. We wanted to have editorial and financial ownership. That was really important to us. I think it was a little bit of the me too moment that made us think like, wait, maybe we could do this ourselves, and so as we started talking to people, we got an offer a grant essentially from a startup that is using the blockchain to reimagine how journalism gets paid for in this day and age. And it is an extremely odd and exciting experiment that we have joined. It is called Civil. So what Civil has done is they've identified twenty I think there's twenty of us start up little many people who want at little mini media empires, and we are the proving ground for this concept for them, which is to build an online ecosystem of websites that to regular people will just look like regular news websites. But on the back end, if you want to join us, you can buy into what's called a token economy, where there will be no advertising on these websites because they will be supported by readers and by essentially a cryptocurrency, which is creating a means for people to vote and take part in governance of what they say will be an entirely new kind of ethical, verified journalism ecosystem. It is confusing to explain, but that is what we are unpacking on the podcast in our through our very personal stories. As gonna say, there's a very human elements. Even as you're explaining all this stuff. The cool thing to me is like hearing you guys as people going through it and the anguish of starting something new and charting into you know, heading into uncertain territory, especial when you have families and people counting on you. It's really thank you. Yeah, I mean you hear a lot of me and Jen leaving. You know, it's a weird mix of like our voice memos to each other and like conversations like you hear me and my husband riding to the airport as we're jetting off in different directions, But you also hear us like trying to understand this. You know, that's my thing, Like, let's try to understand how this new technology works. I am not a techee. I cannot code, but I really want to. I think I need to help myself and other people understand the basics so that we can make sure our technology works to improve our lives. Like you know, Silicon Valley has this thing like, oh, tech is not inherently good or bad, and that's just not true. Technology sometimes is amazing. It connects us to people and information, but other times it is absolutely bad. We have seen what happened with Cambridge Analytica and the ability for these big social media platforms to siphon up all of our private data. And so I think we're at this point where the consumer needs to be not just aware, but voice their opinion. And so for me, going out on my own was a chance to sort of look for solutions to some of these technological problems, not just report on the problems. I want to be part of figuring it out, fixing it making. You know, the Internet has so much wonderful promise, and I see that this blockchain technology also could have so much promise if we get the right people involved. So I want to be part of that. Well that sounds really cool, totally cool. Well, so Manish, we always do a love of the Week. We're hoping you can join us for this episode. This part of our episode here if our technology keeps working. But hopefully when our listeners are listening to this they will have heard us Seamless and Lovely podcast. We've had some issues with three moms rolling with the punches. Rolling with the punches here. Yeah, we always discuss something that we're we're loving this week. So mine mine is tech related. I guess this is. But it's a low tech thing. Part of the tech which is I lost I lost my iPhone charger, right so or somebody took it, which happened more likely, and I needed to buy a replacement one. So I bought one with a much longer cord. And it is like life changing all I do that. Actually, well it's it's you know, not made by Apple. It's somebody's you know, thing they're selling on Amazon. But the cord is long enough that I can like sit in a chair and it can be charging at the same time. I mean, it's the little things, isn't it. Laura, My god, Yeah, so I'm not like hovered next to an outlet as I'm trying to do stuff while my friendly started. Awesome, it is awesome, It is okay. Can I just say like, I stayed at this extremely fancy hotel in pala Alto, and when I came back from dinner, they you knew. I was like, oh, this is what sancy means. In pala Alto. They had taken all my chords and wrapped them with special velcrop, special velcrow. Yeah, and I was like, this is living the life when it comes around and wraps exactly. Yeah, well that's something sure. Probably some people come with like fifty different chords and like that's the whole thing, you know, forget slippers or like you know, bas chocolate. Yeah, but do you want to have that be your love of the week, min Is, Yeah, that would be my love of the week. Your love of the week, Okay, And Sarah, how about my aspiration of the week? Aspiration? Yeah, exactly. Well I'll make mine partially tech and partially a nod to Laura because she did this savoring challenge on her blog as inspired by her book, and I was totally savoring the ability to just stream and then play electronically in my house music for like hours on end by myself the other day. It was so great and I played like all of Amy Man's catalog, like in a row, which started at like nineteen ninety three and went to now and it was just awesome. So yeah, technology, and yeah, for Laura's idea, I love that, like listening to somebody's whole catalog right, like you could hear the thing. Yeah, it felt so oddly indulgent, like yeah, definitely, yeah, those are great. Yeah, I know, savoring. Savoring is good I'm a savor Laura. You really I think you and I I did one of those what do you call them? Were you like inventory? I guess of my life where I kept track of all my hours? Oh? Yeah, attacked you? Oh you did tracking? Yeah. It was very eye opening. And what I realized was the reason you were like, but you're not working really more than like forty to forty four hours a week. And I was like, why do I feel so insanely busy? And I realized was it was the switching. And I so that really plays into some of my work too, is that this the constant switching that we do just exhausts us, which was why I think I felt so tired. So now I'm really trying to do things in blocks of time, and I find that I breathe easier and it even it feels it feels more productive as well. Well. Wonderful well minters, thank you so much for coming on. This has been a great fun. Oh it's great. Thank you so much for having me. And when you when you want to, maybe you want to call them the Zigzag and tell people about your show please, we'd love to. We'd love to. Yeah, thank you so much both for having me. Well, that was great. So this brings us to our Q and a part of the podcast. So this question we both like because it deals with this whole Gretchen Ruben rubric of upholders, obligers, rebels, et cetera. So our listener writes in and says, I have two young kids, work full time from home for a large corporation. My husband works full time in an office. We have full time childcare for our kids. Objectively speaking, my job is not that demanding. The hours are manageable. It's flexible, especially since I work from home. I enjoy the work. I most certainly enjoy the financial opportunities. She has no current ambitions for any kind of promotion or advancement. However, I am a textbook obliger who leans upholder. I like to do things well and do things right. This aspect of my personality has become a bit of a liability as I've become a working mom. Well parenthetically, it was before too, but it's been magnified. I can tend toward feeling overwhelmed, and I use up a significant amount of mental energy on work related stress, even though I can recognize in hindsight that much of the pressure and stress is my own creation. Here's where my question comes in. Your frequent argument about the inefficiency of going part time or inefficacy of going part time in a role that's already very flexible brings true to me, hours are variable and nebulous, and as long as the work gets done, no one really cares or is tracking how many hours I'm working. You've used the line before that one could just slack a bit in this situation, especially if the alternative to doing that is quitting completely. Again, in theory, I get it and completely agree with it. In practice, I find it challenging. So my question, aside from changing my entire personality, any specific tactical tips for internalizing and acting on the just slack mantra when you're predisposed to wanting to cross every T and dot every I at work and it creates added stress. Oh, so what do you think? I love this question because it did speak to me a little bit as someone who kind of weighed the pros and cons in my situation and did decide to go part time, even though I also get what Laura is saying. So I mean, one option is that you can decide that for you. It doesn't make sense. However, I think that my job may be less suited to a more slack or elastic type of situation than others, just because when you have patient care in the mix, unless you are officially and fully off, you're sort of always going to be vulnerable to your patients needing you in some fashion. And therefore I really wanted the ability to completely turn off often go off the grid during certain days, and that wouldn't have been feasible without an official part time. And since that's not your situation, I do think you have a little bit more leeway than I potentially do. So my ideas for you were a couple. So number one, it sounds like you really like structure and you really like goal setting. So perhaps there's some way that you can think of monthly or weekly and even on a micro level, daily goals that you know that you want to get these things done, and then beyond that you're finished. So you still have the ability to, you know, cross the eyes and teas that matter because you've sort of thought about them ahead of time, but you're also not feeling like you have to fill every potential you know, second of the theoretical work day. If you're able to kind of check off the things that you've decided are important, then you're done. My other thought is that if I were in this situation, I think what I would do is I would start doing things like I'd still work a full day, but I would check off things for myself during that day so that I sort of carved out a little bit of extra time, meaning like I might do a workout at lunch break, and you know what, maybe the break will take seventy two minutes instead of the forty five that you're officially allotted. But who cares. If you checked up all the boxes and you're doing all the things that are important, then you met your goals, and that will allow you to kind of address your upholder tendencies in two realms, completing some tasks that you want to do for yourself and also getting what really truly needs to be done for work done. I really like that. I love those answers to yeah, set the daily or weekly or monthly goals, and then when you're done with them, you're done, and so be move yourself away from this sort of idea of time obligation. I think it also might help to get a good sense of what your colleagues are doing. Because one of the ways that you know this oblige your upholder tendency comes in is we think that there's some ideal we're comparing ourselves to, but none of our colleagues are reaching that ideal either. And I have seen this on time logs. You know that colleagues are working wildly different numbers of hours or getting various different things done. And one of the issues of being a remote employee is that you don't see that. And so if you're the sort of person who goofs off all the time, well you there's no accountability and that's not good for the people who employing you. But if you're the sort of like person who does cross every tee, you can wind up working a lot more than other people and there's no check on it, to the point where I you know, I have had people who have kept time logs for me who are working from home and have that kind of personality, like they hire a dog walker to come to their house because they don't feel they can even get away from their desk for like ten minutes to take their dog outside. And I'm like, well, that's kind of ridiculous, Like I don't think there is. Plus, you'd think they could maybe get some creative brainstorming done on the walk, So yeah, want to walk with the dog. You know, if you're working from home, this is one of the upsides and you should probably sees it. And everyone takes breaks, you know, it's just whether they're conscious or not, and so consciously, you know, taking the dog outside might be better than you know, swurfing Twitter because your mind is fragged. Yeah, So I mean trying to get a better sense of what your colleagues are doing with their time, and you know, short of having everyone keep time logs may not be a good way to do this, but you can ask questions and you know, get a sense of, like, you know, what kind of breaks people are taking during the day or what hours they are on and what they are getting done. Do a little bit of that sort of research, and you probably are comparing quite favorably. So maybe you can just sort of dial it back to more like what your colleagues are doing. Especially if you don't have any particular ambitions to advance. Then you know, there's really no point of being the star, except if you personally want to. But it sounds like she doesn't, so that's that's a different matter. Awesome. Well, thank you all for listening. This has been an interesting piece together episode, but we hope all we made all the pieces fit in the end. Yes, exactly. Thanks for listening to Best of Both Worlds and we'll be back with more next week on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the Best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.