Madridgate

00:00:15
Speaker 1: What's up makee?

00:00:16
Speaker 2: Well, despite not thinking like I had enough intelligent things to say about the Madrid tournament and tennis, it turns out we don't even have to talk about the Madrid tournament and tennis. We can talk about everything else that happened at the Madrid tournament.

00:00:31
Speaker 3: Well, I'm glad you decided to chip in on that, because you know I've been hustling and hustling you for a couple of days. Now, I'm like, Kaylin, sometimes we don't need to talk about tennis.

00:00:42
Speaker 1: Sometimes we don't need to talk about the winners and the losers.

00:00:45
Speaker 3: Although I'll give you a little quick recap for all of you tennis and nuts. Obviously we saw Sablenka win against Igasciantek. Now I wasn't surprised about that result, to be quite honest, because look, Madrid is outitude, a little bit of altitude. It always helps the big servers, big returners, big ball strikers, players that not necessarily are true grinders of clay. And I say that because Rafael Nadal, for example, has one Madrid three times. Okay, He's won the French Open, four d okay and every other clay court tournament around that season Rome, you know, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, etc. I'm fairly sure he's won all of them, like at least ten times, So it doesn't necessary lends itself to you know, your typical a play court player. So I wasn't super shocked that she last. I actually thought I actually gave a little bit of an edge to Saberlenka only because look, she's playing great. You know, they played each other recently and stood guard. She would have learned a lot of lessons from that. And also the altitude really does help her and it helps her big serve and when we saw it, it was very much on display. And ego is coming back from an injury. So look as good as she played to get to the final, as well as she played to get to the final, I think she was still slightly underdone and I just gave a Sablanca the edge because of the way she played. Now, there was no guarantees, like I wouldn't have bet my house on it, but I'm not shocked.

00:02:12
Speaker 1: And then the.

00:02:12
Speaker 3: Flip side is I chocked at all that alchoraz One and look at the guy he played in the final. I mean, Struff is a servant volleyer essentially, and a guy that comes in the net quite a lot with a big flat surf that lost in qualities and you know, loses to correct serve and then ends up batting.

00:02:27
Speaker 1: So you know the guy.

00:02:30
Speaker 3: It wasn't surprised to see that guy in the final too, So you know, for everyone they're hanging their hats.

00:02:34
Speaker 1: On the results in Madrid, Calm the farm. Let's wait for Rome.

00:02:37
Speaker 2: It is a little bit in the clear court season because as you said, it's the altitude. We've had some other sort of I don't want to say unorthodopt champions, but not exactly the people you necessarily expect to see.

00:02:47
Speaker 1: That's it.

00:02:48
Speaker 2: I was so excited about the quality of the match, especially on the women's side. Well, the both matches were really quality. The quality of the Eager Shirn Tech Arena sabille A matchup is only getting better and more exciting. I thought both of those players played really well. And also, you know, I've upset the country of Poland by saying, you know, because not necessarily my favorite to watch. I have lots of other terrible opinions that you probably will hate, like I don't really like dogs, or you know I prefer vanilla ice cream.

00:03:19
Speaker 1: It's a wonder. It's actually a wonder wear friends, to be quite honest.

00:03:23
Speaker 2: But I love watching Egle play when she's playing against a completely different style of player and watching her defend, which she does impeccably, probably better than anybody else playing. Certainly on the women's side. She reminds me a lot of Djokovic in that way, movement, flexibility, ability to generate, you know, defense to offense. It's so fun to watch her play against Arena Sabalaka because the two of them just have such a nice sort of duality, and so this is a rivalry I'm superhero for and the match was really high quality. The men's side. It was funny because I was talking with Andrea Pratkovich, her friend, a couple of days ago, and she was like, I have to say, stroof getting to the finals is indicative of the fact that the men's tours little bit in disarray. I don't know if I want to be that hush, because again it is you know, altitude, careful and listen. Those are her words, not mine, her words. But I wonder what you think about that, because Carlitos, you know, lifting the trophy at the end of that week is not an incredible surprise to people. But I do think Streupe getting to the finals is no especially as you said after your last and.

00:04:25
Speaker 1: Quite Oh yeah, absolutely.

00:04:27
Speaker 3: I mean no one would have if you had said, you know, Struff will be in the final of Madrid, I'll give you ten million.

00:04:33
Speaker 1: Dollars or you pay me a hundred.

00:04:36
Speaker 3: You'd take that back. There's no way you would think that guy was getting to the finals. So yeah, there's no question. Look, as I said, look the guy, he's had good results from time to time in the past.

00:04:46
Speaker 1: He's actually been playing quite well this year, so not a.

00:04:49
Speaker 3: Surprise ultimately, with the way he plays with the big serve, the big you know grounds, big flat forehand, you know kind of thing.

00:04:57
Speaker 1: So so, but it was nice. It was nice to see Olcarez get the in there.

00:05:00
Speaker 3: Obviously, the Spanish crowd, you know, they just everybody loves this guy. I mean, you can't help but love the guy. And as you said, the quality of the women's match was fantastic.

00:05:08
Speaker 1: Now we we flipped to.

00:05:13
Speaker 3: Great men's doubles match too, you know, between two really well known singles players and hutching Off and Rublav ended up bidding you know, Rohan Bapana and Matt Ebden Ozzie you know, and Indian specialists in doubles, and.

00:05:25
Speaker 1: You know, get to have a funny speech. They were he was rudebled. Was really funny. He's kind of like, hey, we don't mean to take you know, your doubles titles or but it was fun.

00:05:37
Speaker 3: You know, he's like my childhood friend and hutching off and he's actually he's actually playing again this week. There's a lot of doubles guys playing doubles this week as well because they know they have a week off before the French so they're trying to get as much tennis and as possible. But but then we switched to the women's doubles and the tournament director, tournament head Honchos, guys decide that, you know what, there've been a little bit upset about what the women have said in the post matches in the women's singles final, Ega giving him shit about finishing one in the morning.

00:06:15
Speaker 1: H Vika talking about cake gate, which should.

00:06:19
Speaker 2: Explain cake gate. She and Carlitos Alcarez both had birthdays during the tournament.

00:06:24
Speaker 1: That was Arena Arena that's what I said.

00:06:26
Speaker 2: Oh sorry, Arena had cake given to her. That was a nice little cake. And then Carlos Alcharrez looked like he got the kind of cake that somebody might jump out of because it was about four times a see. And again I didn't really like, who cares. I don't even like take another controversial opinion, but people took notice.

00:06:46
Speaker 1: Let's not forget.

00:06:47
Speaker 3: He was also given his on the court and she was given hers in like, you know, the player's lounge.

00:06:52
Speaker 1: Here go, thanks for coming. So that was another thing.

00:06:56
Speaker 3: But we also haven't spoken about the bowl girls out fits on Senate court, like so sexist, so misogynists to put these girls on Senate court in these outfits, like come on, just put them in a regular, like ball kid outfit and have regular ball kids.

00:07:12
Speaker 1: But no, I mean, they've been doing that for years, and we kind of.

00:07:15
Speaker 3: Touched upon it from time to time, but it was just the it was just the escalating layer upon layer upon layer of the misogynist shit that we saw in Spain and the fact that Jessica Pegoula said, we knew nothing about this until literally and Vika Azarenka said it again today on the coverage.

00:07:33
Speaker 1: No one told them.

00:07:34
Speaker 3: They just literally as they were walking up there were like, oh, by the way, we're not having any speeches, you know, and.

00:07:40
Speaker 2: By the way, is incredibly resulting. It's incredibly insulting and it's unheard of. Also, Jessica Goula and Kogogofu ended up coming in second in that tournament grade mash Warriors. They're also like formidable singles players. So these are like name brand known knowns uh and the chance.

00:08:00
Speaker 3: Player, the number three player in the world, the number five and a two time Grand Slam singles champion in Vika Azarenka and ha Dad Maya.

00:08:09
Speaker 1: Okay, not as.

00:08:12
Speaker 3: Big established name, but you know, as big a name in Brazil as you can get. And you don't let them speak because your quote unquote may be worried about what they're going to say. I mean, did you see Tommy Hastpaul, you know, Medvedev off the court before he did his speech at this in Indian whiles after he'd been literally giving the court, like the tournament shit for ten days about how bad the court was.

00:08:36
Speaker 4: This is.

00:08:37
Speaker 1: You didn't see him go, well, look we're not going to let you talk. Okay, Well you.

00:08:40
Speaker 2: Can't be trusted to say only complimentary things, so you don't get the microphone.

00:08:44
Speaker 1: No.

00:08:45
Speaker 2: They also it wasn't like it was asking of eager who whose critiques of the late night matches played and the women bearing the brunt of that was in correct. She was completely correct. Until Youga's great credit, she's been a very outspook and consistently, I think, sort of activist number one player, which is awesome. You know, there should be room in tournament discourse for people to have, you know, opinions. At the same time, I think all of these players know because they're so professional that the post smatch speech is not necessarily one where you want to bring a twenty five point manifesto, which is not what she did, and it's also not what you know Arena Sabalanka did about the cake and if anything, Victoria Azarenka between the two events Cake Gate and doubles Gate, mentioning the cake had a different size, and also the extremely provocative ball girl outfits, which really dated to the time that Ion Tyriac owned the tournament, and you thought when he sold it to IMG a few years ago they would have ended the practice. They didn't, even though by the end of the tournament, they had, you know, dressed them back into non provocative, like non Hooters girls outfits. But it's just like, come on, yeah, they look bad in they didn't look great, but at least they didn't look like they were about to hop on a pole. So for me, I tried not to talk about this because I really don't want this to be like the podcast where we harangue everyone, but it just kept happening, and the women had such good things to say about it, and it kept sort of getting escalated because the tournament, and this, to be clear, has never been one of my favorite tournaments. I don't like the opt optics of Madrid. I don't, and by that I mean the stadium doesn't look good on TV because of the shade. The boxes in the seats are so high. It kind of looks like you're watching it from sort of like you know, Star Wars esque Imperial Destroyer. Just you look at how beautiful the court in Rome is and how gorgeous the environs. And this is coming from somebody who has lived in Spain, who loves Spain, who likes Madrid a whole lot. But I think for me, the tournament has never really been my favorite. But then you add on all these shenanigans, and listen, I'm not trying to critique Feliciano Lopez, who's the tournament director, because I don't know that he is.

00:11:01
Speaker 3: But there's also another guy that's a big part of it as well. There's another guy that's a big part of those decisions making things, and I think he had a lot to do with it. But the fact also, may I add on Twitter, the guy that sort of runs the tournament above Feliciano, or maybe he's the Spanish Federation guy. He has a photo of the doubles players for the men, a picture of them, a picture of Carlos winning, a picture of Sablenka winning, No picture of the doubles, no picture of the doubles winners. Listen, not only did you not let them speak, you couldn't even put a photo of them. They didn't do anything wrong, and you still didn't put a photo of them up there saying congratulations.

00:11:46
Speaker 1: Ladies, hope will hopefully you come back next year. I'd be like middle finger to all of you guys, I mean.

00:11:51
Speaker 2: And.

00:11:53
Speaker 1: TikTok tickni talk. What's the day?

00:11:57
Speaker 3: How many days has this happened since. And guess who has an made a public statement yet.

00:12:02
Speaker 4: Huh oh wta, Now I know I've heard from sources that they're working behind the thenes on releasing a statement.

00:12:14
Speaker 3: Guys, it's a simple fucking statement. You say, we are very unhappy with the way our ladies doubles finalists and champions were treated. We will We are in discussions. Okay, we're in discussions of how were you going to handle this going forward, but we want to put out there right now that we are not happy with the way that was handled.

00:12:39
Speaker 1: That's it.

00:12:40
Speaker 3: You don't have to go into big fucking like you know, uh, you.

00:12:44
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, you don't have to come out with a eighteen point plan about you know what you expect the tournament to do better. But I do think yes, again, the optics of does this Players Association have your back?

00:12:55
Speaker 1: Women?

00:12:56
Speaker 2: Are you guys allowed to sort of speak out and be the And again to EGA's credit, to Vegas credit, God knows she's outspoken. You know this is these are the most highly paid, highly watched, highly endorsed, highly sought after female athletes in the world, and they should and do have strong opinions about when they're scheduled, what kind of treatment they see other women getting on the court, meaning ball girls dressed provocatively and Leaslivia's outfits, and you know, little things that seem petty, like the size of a cake and where that cake gets delivered, feel like, yeah, maybe in one offs it's maybe not a pattern, but this tournament, I think, especially again under Eontyriac, but now under IMG's management, should be doing better. So I don't disagree. I think the WTA should say something, and I also think the ATV should say something. I mean, come on, guys, like, have some solidarity with these women. You guys would have been furious had had rube Lev and catch on Off not been able to speak. So why not be united, which is something that the tours have been very sort of overtly embraceful of, and do it together and just say, hey, we're not going to play tournaments that aren't equal pay, We're not going to play tournaments that don't have equal treatment. And it doesn't take a whole lot because of how much we know these joint events drive revenue, drive interest, drive attendance, drive broadcast rights. Just we know when the women and the men are combined together, the tournaments do better and the fans win, and so treating both equally and addressing when things like this happen, but from both the tournament leadership, the tour level, and really having some solidarity from the men too, I think is really critical. So I don't disagree with any of that. And like I said, I was trying not to talk about this because one or two of these things, I was like, oh, you know, it's not that big a deal. And then I was like, Jesus, you're right, Rede. We have to get out the stick and talk about this because it's just such a glaring example of how the sport still has so far to go in the way that a tournament can get away.

00:14:52
Speaker 1: With doing this.

00:14:54
Speaker 3: Caitlin, They literally silenced women. They literally silenced those women like I'm sorry.

00:15:01
Speaker 1: Fuck you are you kidding me?

00:15:03
Speaker 3: Like sorry, we're not quite sure what you're gonna say, so we're just gonna not let you speak. I mean, you know that photo of Vika as a ranker, like sitting in front of Coco and Jessica like saying, ah, they're not gonna.

00:15:15
Speaker 1: Let us speak.

00:15:16
Speaker 3: They already told us, like how embarrassing, How embarrassing now how about this, How about the tournament directors go to the WTA stuff and the communication department and say.

00:15:27
Speaker 1: Please have a word to your players. We appreciate, we know we've fucked up this week. We know there's been some issues.

00:15:34
Speaker 3: We're very apologetic, we're very sorry. We're internally looking at this. We know that we've messed up. But you know, and the girls can say what they want, but you know, if they can be just a little bit more positive, maybe in the press, like try not to say anything. We're happy to talk to them about stuff. Like if that's what you want to do. Because you're that worried about what women are going to say, maybe go that route.

00:15:56
Speaker 1: But to actually go up to.

00:15:57
Speaker 3: Them and say we're just not gonna let you talk is absolutely outrageous.

00:16:02
Speaker 2: And I do have some breaking news. I do have that You're right, they should find him, and I do have some breaking news. The tournament CEO, Gerard Sobanian said it would never happen again. He said he was sorry and that they're working with a WTA and again, is this enough of apology? Four days later, after they got slammed six ways till Sunday and thus became headlines and news all over the place like absolutely not, but I hold them a second time.

00:16:25
Speaker 1: Back.

00:16:32
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00:17:45
Speaker 3: Why what, in my opinion, what is the I want to hear from the WTI. What are the WTI saying about these Like, Honestly, if I'm the WTA representative, which they're all out there, you always hear them site. We'd like to thank the WTI representative, the tournament director, the tour director.

00:18:03
Speaker 1: The bubble.

00:18:04
Speaker 3: Why aren't they saying, well, were time out? You're not letting out players speak? Oh no, no, no, no, sorry, that's not happening today. You are letting out players speak right now. Like if I'm a WTA representative on the court, I'm like, hell no, So why did that happen in the first place?

00:18:25
Speaker 1: Is what I want to know.

00:18:27
Speaker 3: Again, I'm asking the questions that that should be answered already.

00:18:32
Speaker 2: Yeah you are. And I think the my point about solidarity and my point about having transparency is one that again, these tours just haven't embraced They don't like people telling them how to be. They clearly don't want to have an externally facing process and I think again it puts them at odds with the rest of the sports world, which does do due diligence both from the reporting side, because the commissioners of these other leagues know that they have to show up in front of the press. They know that the press is going to be asking them who's some questions that they're going to have to have good answers for, and there's an expectation that there's accountability. That again hasn't happened in tennis because everybody's sort of done a lot of patting each other on the back and I think allowing each other to kind of get away with that. But you're absolutely right. I think courageous leadership requires somebody in the moment to say, oh no, no, no, no, no, We're going to have a protest and I'm going to set this place on fire if you guys do not give the microphones to Beatrice Hadad Maya, Victoria Azarenka, co cookef and Jess Beg. I don't disagree with you at all.

00:19:37
Speaker 3: I just think yeah for me, And if they if the WTA went and did that and said that to them and said wait, no, no, no, you're letting it and I didn't, I would I would literally get the players and I would say we're walking off the court right now, We're walking off the court right now.

00:19:50
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to let you have a speak. We're going to put a microphone in front of you, and you're going to put this out on Twitter. We're going to put this out on the socials. That's what I would have done.

00:19:57
Speaker 3: And the fact that they've taken this guy four days now, this Gerard Sorbanian to come out name so you.

00:20:05
Speaker 2: Can't see his name, like it's a pretend guy. You're like, quote, une.

00:20:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so Gerard Sabinian, I know the guy. I know what he I know him, I know what he looks like. I know everything about this guy. It's like, wait a second, a second. You four days to say, oh, look, you know, we're really sorry. We apologize. You know, we're working internally with the players. We made a mistake. Think about what you did.

00:20:30
Speaker 1: Imagine if that was the only.

00:20:33
Speaker 3: Tournament one thousand W two one thousand that you ever win in your career. Clearly all of these players will probably win another one. But can you imagine if he is the only tournament that they won and you took that moment away from them. As an ex player who was in that situation many times, fuck you for doing that to them, that is outrageous. That is, there's the one thing that players really look forward to after a tremendously long two weeks or week depending on the tournament, is you know, when they win a tournament, honestly, the first thing you think of is I finally get a chance now to thank my people publicly. I finally get a chance to thank my doubles partner publicly. I finally get a chance to thank the tournament on the ball kids, and you know, the fans and.

00:21:23
Speaker 2: My family and that maybe flew in here from somewhere else and took time out of their lives to make sure that they could be here to see this moment. You're right, it's a disgrace. It is honestly a disgrace. And I think, honestly, the thing that I'm sort of not want to say positive or excited about because I think emotionally we're both having very intense responses to this. But I think for me what's exciting about it is that they had to apologize again. Is it enough?

00:21:46
Speaker 1: No? Is it too late?

00:21:47
Speaker 2: Yes? Is it indicative of a subculture, especially with that tournament in particular, but many many others, like Rome, for example, which is not paying women equally, Cincinnati, which we should talk about, which does and also pay women equally, But I think there's hope on the horizon. What I like about this story and why I'm happy we're talking about it, and why I finally agreed despite not having watched every second of tennis and not wanting to come off as ill prepared, is just that I think that the media and the blogs and the Twitter and the players themselves have started speaking up, being a little bit more diligent, being a little bit more present, and realizing how much tennis should be covered. And what was impressive to me is the stories didn't come from the usual sources that usually only cover tennis, and they do it in a way that's like a little bit kid gloves, you know, like the WTA and ATP's own media channels they had. It was beyond sort of you know, tennis dot com, which tends to be again pretty soft. It was from real newsplaces. It was from the New York Times, it was from the Daily Mail, it was from the New It was from the BBC. This got picked up and actually carried by real meat. Yeah, and I think for that reason the tournament had to apologize. I think and hope that this cycle keeps happening and it happens faster. And I also just really want to shout out to the players themselves, especially Viga who really got the ball rolling, but also to IgA to a smaller degree Arena who didn't seem that upset about the cake but did mention it, and to Jess Poogola who was asked about it Impress conferences and said she was disappointed and didn't want to see it again. Speaking out matters. It gives external media, especially media that isn't in these newsrooms covering tennis day in and day out. It gives them a chance to understand and get contextualized and use your platform to pull them into the sport and make it more I think open to change because it's introducing some accountability and I love that and I think that's a really good trend.

00:23:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

00:23:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I got to give credit to our young champions though you know, players like Coca GoF It was the first one.

00:23:54
Speaker 1: That wrote a Twitter.

00:23:55
Speaker 3: She wrote a thread immediately after, and I this kids, she still ends up for She's she's outspoken and I really like that about her. And as you said, Toritech is fantastic World number one with.

00:24:09
Speaker 1: You know, speaking up with certain things.

00:24:10
Speaker 3: Whether it be Ukraine more or you know what happened in the scheduling last week.

00:24:16
Speaker 2: And then I respect that. I think it's using the physician of leadership and prominence that you're ranking and your play and you're being a champion athlete gives you You're going to get a little bit more attention than you know, maybe a player who doesn't get to the end stages of the tournaments. And all of the women we just talked about are really using it, and I really respect that. I think it's awesome.

00:24:37
Speaker 3: Can I because you know, I went on Twitter and I had to look at some stuff and I highlighted one, you know, response to all of this stuff, and I'm gonna I'm going to say the guy's name. His name is Steve sc Okay, Steve usc One. This guy responds saying, if they don't apologize, you complain. If they apologize, you can plain. IgA, Sabah and Vika also weren't diplomat in the way they publicly complained when they could have privately addressed it with the tournament, So let's not act they are blameless.

00:25:07
Speaker 1: Time to move on.

00:25:08
Speaker 3: I mean, if that's not a guy's response to this, So that's why I brought up the Medvedev. This guy is giving the tournament shit on a daily basis, every single match about the court, about he wasn't happy with this, he wasn't happy with that.

00:25:20
Speaker 1: Lah blah blah.

00:25:21
Speaker 3: It's like you'd never said I bet you, Steve didn't say anything about that, and it's like nobody said to him, listen, pull your head and we're not gonna give your mic anymore. I mean, there's been so many players, particularly on the men's side, that have said stuff publicly, whether it be in press conferences or trophy celebrations or postmatch interviews or whatever, and nothing's ever no one, no one like gives them shit about it.

00:25:44
Speaker 1: So it's just like, uh, anyway, let's move on to other things. Well, this is really great.

00:25:53
Speaker 2: I'm happy that atally that ended up being sort of productive and you got to shame a dumb you know, men's rates active on Twitter, So good job, Steve. You're unnoticed. Renee. Do not come for Renee unless you're prepared for her to come back at you. Can we talk about the most exciting news in at least American tennis.

00:26:12
Speaker 1: We do feel responsible for this.

00:26:15
Speaker 2: In the sense that I feel responsible generally for progress and for people to at least watch their backs, not in a way that I you know, I don't want to go after anybody, but yeah, I feel like being vocal is useful. But no, I think this plan was long in the works and I am thrilled about it, which.

00:26:31
Speaker 3: Is that Cincinnati is going to be moving to Charlotte, North Carolina.

00:26:37
Speaker 2: Love it, I absolutely love it. Ben Navarro to be bloody hot. It is going to be very hot. I don't disagree with you.

00:26:45
Speaker 3: And then again, Cincinnati can be bloody hot too, so you know, I mean.

00:26:48
Speaker 2: Letten, the most of the US in mid August is.

00:26:53
Speaker 1: Not bloody, bloody whole.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: I got a few responses from folks at I praised the move, saying, well, it would have been great if it was in the Pacific Northwest, or it would have been great to if it was in Chicago. Chicago, I actually think would have been a great contender because it's a real city. It's a real place. The Midwest doesn't have a tournament anymore, and it used to have a handful. I suspected when Ben Navarro and Bemock, which is his company that has done You know, we've spoken about Charleston and how good that tournament is and how he's made that stadium multi purpose. It's a concert venue, it's a year round draw, and this tournament really is incredibly good and largely because of his vision and money. Let's face it, when he bought sincey I think a lot of us were thinking, huh, it would be interesting if he left it there. And of course now the plan is for them to move to Charlotte, North Carolina, and I think there is a public private partnership under sort of review in that city to create a stadium. Very sim learned what he's done in Charleston, which is to create something that can be used throughout the year a really good way, both for an entertainment purpose putting other sporting events, putting concerts in the stadiums, but also as a facility that can train your local use, which is something that they've done in Charleston. Really well. I've been to Charlotte. I like it a lot. It's charms are not evident as Charleston. It's not a beautiful sort of rivertown, but it has a hell of a hot chicken sandwich. It's got regional cuisine that is delicious.

00:28:31
Speaker 1: And what do you think?

00:28:32
Speaker 3: What do you think, Caitlin, what do you think they're going to do with that Cincinnati site now? Because you know they put a lot of money into it. What are they going to do with it? I mean, are they going to have another tournament there at some point? In a smaller tournaments?

00:28:42
Speaker 2: I mean, I think when I think about what makes Charlotte so much better than Cincinnati setting aside of my personal preferences, which is I'd much rather go a place with that has good food and is you know a little bit more accessible, especially.

00:28:52
Speaker 3: Well, and let's not forget, let's not forget it was in Cincinnati.

00:28:56
Speaker 1: It's Mason right, Okay.

00:28:58
Speaker 3: If it was in Cincinnati, I think that would have been much better for the players and everyone would It would have been a lot more popular with the players. But I can tell you right now, Cincinnati was a pain in the ass for the players. Really, the top top players would rent a house close by, and everyone else is slepping and staying in these like just very ordinary like hotels close to the courts, or they were staying about thirty minutes away because I know, because that's where I was staying in a little bit.

00:29:24
Speaker 1: Nice of hotel, but it's a schlep to and from the courts every day. Yeah.

00:29:28
Speaker 2: I think one of the things that is a lesson here is you have to think about what community area and also what destination you're luring people towards. I mean, nobody is mad at going to Indian Wells in the middle of a frigid time of the year for East Coasters or anybody who's basically, you know, above a certain latitude, and all of a sudden you've got, you know, gorgeous, mid century modern city that has hiking and all this stuff. So it's sort of like, well, yeah, going to Indian Wells in March is awesome. I don't think it would be great to go to Indian Wells in August, you know. But I think destination matters, and also the ease and accessibility of a lot of these players who are traveling internationally to get to some place, because to your point, getting to Cincinnati does not exist with a direct flight to from Europe or.

00:30:19
Speaker 1: A lot of well, nay of the just Charlotte though.

00:30:21
Speaker 2: No, Charlotte is on a few international routes in fact, because it is similarly a hub for other airlines. I don't think it's you know, as big as Atlanta, for example. But again, once you're there, you're there. You don't have to do another forty minute slap out to the suburbs and you know, again have this disconnected feeling. So for me, I don't know what they're going to do with the site. I think obviously you know, I'm a big fan of NCAA tennis. I love college tennis. I love the idea of maybe using it as I'm sure they'll use it as a challenger site. But for a tournament that had very bad logos and very little appeal for a travel destination, and one to me, most damningly that did pay women equally, can't say I'm not sad about it. So sorry, since you had your chance. Now your new owner is going to put it in a place that I hope treats it well, embraces it the way that we've seen other really successful tournaments be embraced and work very cohesively with the city in which they're set. And I think this is a good example of like, look, nothing set in Stone, we thought San Jose was going to have a tournament forever. Mark Ein bought it, combined it with the existing tournament in DC, and now we have a really awesome tournament in DC to look forward to. Right, So there's change, I will say, and we got to keep modernizing or else things need to get on the keel list.

00:31:34
Speaker 3: In my opinion, I will say the one thing that is disappointing for me in American tennis, at least with destination tennis, and we do have Indian Whales, which is fantastic, and I want to see more tournaments in California, you know, it is the one thing that I really am. I'm sad about because you know, we had so many when I applied. We had San Diego, we had la at times, we had Stanford.

00:31:55
Speaker 1: We had some.

00:31:56
Speaker 3: Great tournaments on the West Coast, and it was really really well attended. People loved to go to the tennis there, and it's a destination place, Like people want to go to California in the summer because it's not quite as balls hot as like you know, the Northeast or the Midwest or whatever I mean. In California in summer is gorgeous, right, So I think, you know, somewhere down the line.

00:32:16
Speaker 1: I think there's a place for a really big tournament in California.

00:32:19
Speaker 3: It has to be strategically in a way where people can travel to it and not be such a pain. But I do hope that maybe prior or after, you know, it's tough because Indian Wells, like ideally, you know, around Indian Wells, it would be good because players are there.

00:32:35
Speaker 1: But I don't know. Again, it's going to.

00:32:37
Speaker 2: Say something really controversial because I can't escape our podcast episode taping without saying something really controversial. I think that they should upgrade San Diego and make it a combined and more of a tournament and make that the California Swing. And I think that they should totally rethink Miami. Is Miami one of the best cities in America without a doubt. It's basically the you know, Latin Slam. I would prefer actually had a Latin Slam and we could move something to you know, a different part of South America, this continent or another continent that's in our same sort of part of the world. But I do think Miami should be on Clay and Miami should be in a different part of the calendar and I think.

00:33:17
Speaker 1: I like that. I like that idea.

00:33:19
Speaker 3: Actually, I mean I could see something like even like Charleston getting so big that they could have a combined event for example, and we're spit bowling right now, and like you could do like a Mexico swing up to California, finish it with Indian Wells.

00:33:36
Speaker 1: Everyone goes to Miami and starts their clay.

00:33:38
Speaker 3: Court seasons that would be on the East coast, and then bang, they go over to Europe and they start playing.

00:33:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not a bad I actually think the commissioners.

00:33:46
Speaker 2: If we're the commissioners, I mean, listen our newest issue of Bracketed Out and in the issue, we have a really cool story about clay and how it's made. And we went to both a traditional you know, red clay mine in Argentina, and we talked to a reporter and a journalist, Sebastian fest who's Argentine, whose family did this and has owned a red clay sort of processing facility. And we also send our friend Jerry Maserati to the her True Mine down south to see where that some call it ugly, I find it sort of you know, stoic and approachable. The her True that gray, that gray green clay is mine. And the thing about her true is it's a nice actually in independent in between step between the speed of hardcourt and the slowness of the red because it's really in between. It's a little slippery, but not as much it's it's fast, but obviously way less fast than hard And I do think like it would be really fun to have a little like green clay swing in the Southern States before people go off to.

00:34:55
Speaker 1: Europe.

00:34:55
Speaker 2: And I think it would be really cool to really build out that San Diego, Mexico part of the calend because, as we've talked about, we are massive fans of Mexico. Mexican tennis is on the apps, and you know, I think, again, what's about the best player experience, what's about the best scheduling experience, and what's about the best way to get fans and even casual people who just want to travel all coalescing around the place. And to me, Charlotte is maybe not the perfect solution in all ways, but it's a great one and I'm really happy and it's a massive improvement.

00:35:25
Speaker 3: I'm just super excited that we've got a guy like Ben Navarro, who's daughter Emma Navara who just got into the top one hundred in the world. Congratulations Emma, who went of course to college and is now you know, trying to make it into the pro tour and has made it into the top one hundred. And she's a great player, super talented, like very talented, a lot of fun to watch. I just love the fact that a guy with a lot of money is investing in tennis and he's a girl dad, and you know, he's going to make sure women are treated equally at his event, and I am here for that. I thought a really funny tweet. Can I just go back to the double situation if someone posted was someone said to Jessica Pagoula on her tweet, why don't you just get your dad to buy the tournament? And I was like, oh, it's actually not a bad idea. Yeah, you know, I turn it into you know, jess can run the tournament in the future like that.

00:36:18
Speaker 2: Fortunately and unfortunately for jess Begoula, that does sort of solve all the problems. So like, hey, is there a problem that Wimbledon because they took points away? Or maybe from your view, it's problem they you know, let are letting Belarusian players and Russian players or not play jes Begoula, get your dad about the tournament.

00:36:35
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

00:36:36
Speaker 2: Like I listen, I am a fervent believer that our society should not have billionaires. That said, the ones who want to spend a lot of money on tennis are seemed to be better intentioned to have a little bit more of a you know, plan for tennis than do our governing bodies and tournament directors for sure. So you know what, if you're going to have all the money, spend it on tennis and do stuff like what Ben Navarro is doing.

00:37:01
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we have now come in again, and once again this is like the third or fourth part in a row where I have bitched about the WTA or something.

00:37:09
Speaker 1: So I'm getting tired of this, people, I really am.

00:37:12
Speaker 3: I know you probably don't realize that, but I'm getting tired of coming on to the pod and complaining about everything because I really don't want to.

00:37:21
Speaker 1: But you know, there has to be some At some point.

00:37:26
Speaker 3: I want it to be over and I want to move on talking about tennis. So we're going to talk about Rome when the tournament is over. Obviously, it's super exciting that we finally have Novak Djokovic and al KaAZ in the same tournament. Let's hope that they get to the finals and play each other, and then we'll have a real great idea of who's going to win the French Open. And in the women's side, we'll see what happens there. We had a bit of an upset today speaking of Jessica Bogol lost of Taylor Townsend. Taylor Townsend grinding through qualities and then getting a terrific win.

00:37:54
Speaker 1: Over Jessica Goula. But look, we've got tons of tennis still to go on Caitlin's favorite service, the Red Clay. So guys, thanks for joining us today. I promise please guys stop kissing me off. See you next week. Bye bye,