Geoff Shackelford on the Player-Empowerment Era and Golf Architecture’s Future

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at b Dratty. With fall approaching, we've got to talk about the Crew Next sweatshirt. The b Dratty Crew Next sweatshirt. We have a few left available in our pro shop and then you can get it at pro shops all across the country that offer them. This sweatshirt is amazing. It's got you know, it's made with very soft cotton. It's a shirt that it's a sweatshirt that you just want to live in. I wear mine way too much. I have two of them and they are basically always on when I'm lounging around the house. This sweatshirt has got a really neat design. I was with Billy Draddy this weekend actually, we were talking about it and one of the coolest parts of this design is the kangaroo pouch that you see a ton on hoodies, but rarely see it on a Crew Next sweatshirt. Kangaroo pouch. It's great for fall morning because it's a little cool. You got somewhere to put your hands, you can put stuff in there. But this sweatshirt, you know, the toughest thing about it is that missus fridag is always stealing it wearing it. So that's why I have two of them now, so you can check out that in the pro shop. We have only a few left there, but also available on bdratty dot com and in participating pro shops. If your pro shop doesn't have it, I'd ask for it. You're gonna want it on uh with the fall weekends coming up, and you know, perfect perfect sweatshirt to sit on the couch and watch watch golf, watch football, whatever it is on these cooler days. So bdratty dot com and that's the crew next sweatshirt. Now back to part two of our latest episode with Jeff Shackelford. So in part two we get into the players kind of speaking up about what's going on on tour with slow play technology. So if you miss part one, be sure to go check it out. I get a lot of good feedback from people saying they really like Jeff's commentary on on a wide variety of subjects. So, without further ado, here's part two of our conversation with Jeff Shackelford. I miss a green for example, I'm already upset.

00:02:20
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a fried egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Friday Frida egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.

00:02:56
Speaker 1: So, you know, while we're while we're on the subject, Yeah, you know, I feel like we all have been saying nothing will change unless the players start speaking up. And you know, at the end of the year we started to see players speaking up about slow play and even technology. What, uh do you think this is a the start of a you know, they say that the NBA right now is in this like player empowerment era where players actually are running the league, and you know, they they dictate where they go and dictate the teams much more so than even the gms. Yeah, do you feel like we're gonna go We're heading towards this era where like we're actually going to get what we want and players are going to start speaking up when something's you know, they think something's wrong.

00:03:50
Speaker 2: I think we're there already in a lot of ways. I mean, the players have dictated, uh, some elements of the schedule and the Olympic format that different things like that they were very influential on. I think the way to determine your the answer your question is the schedule and if if more players do what Rose and McElroy did in saying I don't know if this is the best way to do the major season long term, that could snowball and that would be the thing that could that could make them revisit some elements of the major schedule. I don't know how many they can. I mean, it's really tricky, but I could see that if it's snowball being the sign that yeah, the players have have kind of taken over. But if they they don't, then then then then maybe they're not quite there yet. I mean they already you already saw it this year with the schedule in terms of just how how many players just said no, I'm not I'm not playing there the week before or a major when they're now this compacted. So they already have kind of spoken with their with their appearances and where they played. And then Brooks has kind of spoken with the way he plays the tournaments versus majors, even though it's something he is he is trying to improve on. He wants to play well every week he just doesn't. So I think we're getting there, and that when you meant player empowerment you mentioned that. I thought you were referring more to kind of the the delusional at times statements that some players make having been empowered by the fact that they can hit the ball three forty and they're misses. They do not know the pain, agony and mental suffering caused by a true snap hook or some of the other awful things that happened with the old equipment, which nobody really wants to go back to. But you do realize that the equipment at one time did probably humble more players than it does now, and that humbling is uh is probably a good thing, and there is a lot less of that going on. So I thought that's what you You also meant and empowerment thing.

00:06:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean media in in a way, I think that, Yeah, that was That was a crazy week and the comments that came out of that week, I I'm shocked at how undercovered they were really when you had you had three players, three great players generation, like three of the best players of their generation speak out about about equipment and how easy it is to hit the driver.

00:06:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, but hey, Jack Nicholas, Bobby Jones, Tiger Woods have all spoken on this topic and people belittle them. They don't. They don't just blow them off. They actually have made fun of them. And and and you know, Jack couldn't make a golf I can't tell you many times they here well as because Tiger says that now because he can't, he can't hit it anywhere when he can still hit it a long way. And no, no, no, they're not speaking from a place of trying to benefit their game. In fact, I would say Tiger Tiger avoided the topic and lied about his views to not be seen as as wanting a change in the rules of equipment to better benefit himself. When he looks back at his career, he will be able to say, no player in the history of our sport had to deal with bigger changes in equipment than I did, and I overcame all of them. And that's not to knock the other people who won majors. He just in the time that he played, we saw the biggest changes in everything ball and clubs, and he overcame all of that. And but you also wondered, did he did it cost him? Did did the equipment elevate some people just enough to beat him a few times, or did the equipment nullify his genius just a tiny bit. I mean that's where Phil has finally come around. It took him way too long to figure it out, but he could tell some of his comments. He figured out that there's some people who are who are very nice players, no disrespect, but they kind of got a little bit better with today's stuff, and some of the shots that I can play they don't have. But they don't need my shots anymore because the way the game is played. And so Adam, that's been Adams view. He came to that conclusion, Adam Scott, I think was one of the ones you were referring to. I didn't like his blaming the architects. That was I have to have a I'm going to try to have a chat with him about that, because he's he's a great guy, and he's really bright, and his dad is really passionate about this topic as well, and that's where he gets a lot of his that's his sounding board on this question of technology. And he just sees that he is somebody who swing repeats so well and he is such a superior ball striker and and a lot of his superiority in that department is nullified, yes, by kind of the muting of certain skills. And that's going to be the big part of the discussion this fall.

00:09:34
Speaker 1: I think Scott had like arguably the best statistical season of his career this year. Yeah, and he you know, he was pretty irrelevant, which is.

00:09:49
Speaker 2: Which is amazing. I mean because even if you're right, Tom Kite had some years like that where his numbers if he were in this and the stats era where and now, would have been amazing. And but he wasn't a a putter, but he's still he was still rewarded for the way he played the game and the consistency and the precision and Scott being a mediocre putter. Uh, it's it's bad it's exposed in a way that's that seems a little bit disproportionate. Yeah, I mean the way he hits the ball should should should allow him to be uh standing out more.

00:10:28
Speaker 1: What what do you think about like the I've thought about this a lot, and and the way golf courses are presented in the attempt to make them the same weekend week out with this setup the conditioning, because then we go over the Open and we always like always marvel at the Open leader board and I'm like, God, this is these are different players, you know, there's different styles on this leader board, and we can week out and the two were you know, they strive to set up the golf course within their kind of parameters. I mean, shouldn't there be a lot of different surfaces kind of I mean we talked a little bit about tennis earlier, but like there are different types of surfaces for different and different types of players succeed on them.

00:11:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess I would say. I mean, the one thing I've learned watching the guys set up is that they all have different philosophies and stever and Toole doesn't like a.

00:11:31
Speaker 1: Lot of rough.

00:11:32
Speaker 2: So when they come to Riviera, he feels like the architecture is so good that why would I why would I hide it in rough? Plus they don't oversee, you know. He takes into consideration some of the elements that he had that are the ingredients he's given, So his decision on that is partly agonomic. In the time of year, John Mutch loves the US Open setup, so Tory Pinees is set up tough, so I think there's more variety than people realize. It's just it seems like the tour schedule tends to go mostly to places at times a year when the uh conditions are really not optimal to highlight the course is strongest features, or to set it up in a way where they really have true control. It seems like they go to a lot of places where it's just either past the prime season or just before and rail, or it's the time of year it rains more than you know, it's odd. It's an odd schedule that way, but it also you can't really see any other way. So and then when the way the game's played, there's just only so much you can do, and you can only tuck, you can only highlight so much strategy before it's it's just impossible when people can hit the ball as far as they do and overwhelm the architecture.

00:12:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's true. It's I mean when you're hit.

00:12:56
Speaker 2: And that's why Adams comments annoyed me, because like, you know, look in the architects, Like, don't blame the architects.

00:13:04
Speaker 1: They can't.

00:13:05
Speaker 2: You can't design for some of these things. You just can't.

00:13:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the only it's just there's the ball's perfect because it you know, it's spins on short shots, it doesn't spin on long shots, and it just yeah, you know if you hit wedge into every green as your tuckpins don't matter that much.

00:13:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that shot that I think you'll you'll see the usgah. Yeah, like Hoodie Johnson seized on that Phil Mickelson shot where he had a little tiny wedge in his hand. I think it was in practice at the Masters, and he was driving around in a car with Tom Posio and he walked out to look at the sprinkler head to see what the number was into eleven and then that led to the monstrosity that that's the eleventh tee and fair away and that whole mess. I think the one is justin Thomas and I don't remember the hole, but a medna. He was in the right rough pin was tucked so tight to the to the right front of the green behind a bunker, and I know it was soft and it rained, but he he was in deep stuff and and of course people were belittling the rough there and then everybody who I talked to who was there said no, it was brutal the rough was brutal and he spun and I believe it was on Saturday, and I tweeted it and just said, here you go this, that's like, there's your example right there of that that he's at the wrong angle of attack. Uh, he's in the rough. It's hey, it's brutal. It's you know, he's got a bump wrist, which so it's not a lot of fun for him to go after shots in the rough anyway, because one wrong move I know is a as having a bad wrist and golf. Uh. You you's always in the back of your mind that out of a line like that, you're going to reinjure it. And he and he nally hits it tight. It just it just grabbed. He's just like, okay, it's time. That's that's the combo platter of grooves and distance there. And that's what I just know that they'll sit and look at and go, well, how is how is skilled being? I mean, that's it's skill. It was skillful for him to play the shot, But is that really manageable? Is this really how we want the game to be played? Yeah?

00:15:28
Speaker 1: And that's that's the problem, is that you can hit driver and get that wedge on almost every golf hole, every part for doesn't matter what the length is.

00:15:41
Speaker 2: And we have numbers that that tell you that you're stupid over the course of the year to not play that way. You're you're you're not going to You're not going to survive out here. That the money is made by the people. And Tiger got into this who who who play that game? And when on the weeks it clicks, you're gonna have a very good week and you're gonna you know, all you need is Tiger said it three or four weeks. Did you think when he said that somebody was rolling their eyes at me. I felt like that was a subliminal message to the tour when he said the three or four weeks thing, because he said it before, but I or he said a few good weeks before, but he said three or four at this time. Did you think that was just sort of a subtle way of back to our conversation earlier of saying that this is what you want for a product where guys just need to have three to four good weeks. You really want that? Or am I am I reading too much into it?

00:16:44
Speaker 1: Well? I think it goes hand in hand with the distance thing, you know, because yeah, it's you've there's the built if you hit the ball really far right. Now there's the ability because of how important drivings become. You know, drives almost as important as approach now iron play, which is.

00:17:07
Speaker 2: Low it's more important if you don't know.

00:17:12
Speaker 1: If it's it's really so if you look at the Tour Championship and and like who's gotten there from two thousand and seven to it's become it's on like a just a straight downward to the bottom. And approach play has always been highly valued of the top thirty players on tour, and driving is catching up if not are a caught up, So it's it's pretty much turned into an equal right. So if you're if you're that type of player, it's just you have this, you have an ability with the driver to be very below average at everything else and then just occasionally you get hot putter and you win.

00:17:54
Speaker 2: That's a camera champ model. And he has a horrible short game, and you just that's just he just needs to be healthy and have three to four good weeks and and and he'll all so overwhelm of course with his driving that uh, he'll have a great week. I think Matthew Wolf is more a more complete player than that, so he won't be that way, but but he has a similar mindset or will be successful because he can do the same thing. He just may have more more game. And Victor Howlin definitely has a more well rounded game, but he's still very heavily uh relying on on on the driving and the overwhelming of course that way, so he's still part of that of that way to play the game. And why not that's the way it's it's set up until somebody says otherwise.

00:18:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the problem and this goes back to our earlier discussion with shorter careers, if if, if distance is going to be such a big thing, you know, the younger generation is always going to outpace the guys on tour, right right, Yeah.

00:19:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and yeah it'll be who's youngest and most limber and and yeah I can and then and and and less like you have been injured.

00:19:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, And who's seen Joey d the most lately, you know, right right?

00:19:18
Speaker 2: And that is another part of this that again, that story in the athletics, uh didn't even really get on and because it's the whole story on its own is the injury factor. And you know, I won't be surprised if we see a point where Justin Thomas uh says, you know, I've I've I've been working with my dad to kind of change a couple of things in my swing to to not be so reliant on on speed and attacking the ball because I want to pull on my career. Yeah, I could see that because because and then you and you hear all the time. Gave Charles Howell a hard time on Instagram. He put up a thing of his son going after, you know, pursuing speed, and he's got a great club at Speed's a little lefty and he and he just just goes after it. But I wrote him back and go great another another parent all in on speed, you know. And there's a guy who's had this great, long career of making just a ton of money, be trying to trying to get better, but trying to be a complete player, not trying to be a bomber. And then then yeah he is, but he's tried. I mean, it's what you gotta. That's the way the game is gonna be played until somebody says otherwise.

00:20:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's but it's.

00:20:36
Speaker 2: Just dumb though. I mean, it's terrible. You're gonna have more injuries? Is it more fun?

00:20:39
Speaker 1: Is it?

00:20:39
Speaker 2: What golf?

00:20:40
Speaker 1: You?

00:20:40
Speaker 2: What make golf great? Along? What's the things? And of course he answer to all those things is now, it's none of those things and shouldn't be. And and the game's beautiful when it's played by a people with all sorts of skills that aren't speed related against maybe somebody who does have great club at speed. It's the variety of styles is a beautiful thing that's just gone.

00:21:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, like when he used to watch Jim Furich battle Ernie Els or VJ Singh, you.

00:21:11
Speaker 2: Know, yeah, yeah, or my example I was you know that to me, it was just an amazing thing. When Corey Paven and Fred Couple's we were the two of the best, two completely different ways of playing the game, although they did that one thing in common. They both moved the ball well, and they liked them move the ball, and it was fun to watch them move the ball in different ways. Corey's was like a drop kick, funky thing and Fred's was a big, beautiful high cut but he could hit a draw better than people realized. And why he won the Masters and could play Riviera and could play a lot of places and loved to do that. I mean, how many guys love to move the ball?

00:21:49
Speaker 1: Now?

00:21:50
Speaker 2: Do Paba? I even liked doing it. I think he just does it because that's how he plays.

00:21:53
Speaker 1: But that's the only guy I can think of that really moves it. You know, it's the only guy.

00:22:01
Speaker 2: Yes, which is amazing.

00:22:03
Speaker 1: Justin Rose is one of the amazing players when you look at his career, because like he's the one guy I feel like that's actually successfully chased distance.

00:22:15
Speaker 2: He has because he's smart. He he he looks at the numbers, he has smart people around him, and he realizes that he had to do it, and good for him, that's made him very rich.

00:22:31
Speaker 1: Now for a quick word from our sponsor. Today's episode is powered by TDM Mayortrade. Whether on the course or in the market, it helps to have a second set of eyes to keep you on your game. That's why TEDM mayor Trades Trade Desk is here to help gut check your strategies so you always feel confident teeing up a trade. Visit tedomayortrade dot com slash fried Egg to learn more about what their trade desk can do for you. Member s I PC now back to Jeff Shackleford, so I change it gears. Uh, yeah, it was curious. Is you know, you're a legendary architecture writer, and uh, I wanted to get your get your take one. You know, you've written far more books than anybody probably will write younger than you.

00:23:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't give me a lot of architecture books. But anyway, go on, so.

00:23:25
Speaker 1: So with Uh, minimalism is obviously in vogue. We have you know, you'd say the three biggest, four biggest architects are all minimalists, you know, and throughout architecture. I guess we've gone in waves since World War Two. But I think one of the things that made the Golden Age great was that we had different styles.

00:23:51
Speaker 2: You know.

00:23:51
Speaker 1: We had we had the steam shovel guys, and we had the pure minialists, you know, and you had your Perry Maxwell and you had your Lane from Aroa Charles Banks. You know, where there are completely opposite styles. Do you do you foresee a different style of architecture emerging? And I think this is a question everybody's asking.

00:24:16
Speaker 2: A different style. Uh, it's hard to see. Uh, U's going back to Robert Trent Jones style, or or a bombastic uh as a mirrorhead kind of thing with mermaids, or or even uh Fazzio type, water friendly and framing friendly and devoid of any interest whatsoever, strategically saying I don't I don't see that because there's just now too much awareness of architecture and how it impacts interest in the game, and there's too much interest now and the fun factor that it's really hard to see anybody saying, ah, screw fun. We got to get back to get courses that are rated within you know, that are rated an eighty and punishing people, and it could happen. I just don't see that, just because there's now an awareness of that that that really didn't age well or work well those various movements. I would say that it'll go the opposite direction of of I mean, there could be a movement of more Rainer style stuff. I mean, I've got template all fatigue. As you know. Yeah, temple halls were great, great for correcting a bad direction, but now it's time to create the new template holes. So I would hope we'd see more. I think we'll just see it go in a direction of more outside the box thinking potentially not set on eighteen holes, not set on pars, getting to seventy facilities being reimagined different ways, with taking eighteen holes and lowering them to twelve and developing the other part to pay for it, or to add to part three, or to build a really great range. And I think we'll see more of that kind of what about than anything philosophic in the way of approach, What about the design and.

00:26:32
Speaker 1: What about like creating great golf from you know, nothing like what we saw with dye and sawgrass. Say, do you think we'll see that ever? Come back? Like the.

00:26:48
Speaker 2: Tommy Knockrod and I are working on an article on sam Anita golf course here in southern California, which was a Works Progress Administration thing, and so the whole purpose of that was to get people working. And so they spent years building this course, they dragged it out, they talk about it in the articles, and you go out there and talk about a dead flat site. I mean we're talking dead flat track correct Santa Anita, which we're going to explain in our piece for mckeller, And yes, dead flat everything around it. You know, there might be a tilt because of the San Gabriel mountains and the property and and so great, but you can't tell it as a golfer. It's not like the tilt from top of the canyon to the bottom of the canyon of Riviera or Rustic Canyon. It's it's it's it's very slight anyway. So they spend all this time building it, and it's not very good shape right now, but it is a It is just a true masterpiece of shaping and creating and showing how you can create something from nothing. And but it took time. And Ben crench out the first thing he ever said to me when I sort of asked him when he was out of Riviera, and I was just a dumb young kid kind of watching this stuff and curious, and he just would always, yeah, I go, I'd absolutely like, what's the most important thing? And he just he always said time, And I'm like, what is this? What is he talking about? Time? And then and yeah, That's what he taught me about Riviera was even though Riviera was built fairly fast for the era, they spent so much time on each on shaping all the features, and those features not only work for drainage and moving water and make the property functional. But they incorporated those into the design so that you you have these these great ground features that most golfers don't even notice, but they make it just a beautiful walk in the park. They make it interesting from a golf point of view. And when you go to Santa Mein, it just blows your mind how much dirt they moved all this, these great little swales. Every hole's got something, and and yet most of people play there oblivious to it, probably, But it just shows you that you can build something from nothing. You can build interest, but it takes time and and and it can be beautiful and and and you don't need a ton of bunkers. And you know, it's just basically back to the old course. But that somebody did it who really didn't never built the course. And Tommy and I are still suspicious of the whole story of the architect. We just it's just too good. That the work is too good to have been from somebody who didn't know what they're doing. Then against Seth. Rayner wasn't really a golfer. I don't believe he ever went to Scotland and he built these just he built some of the most beautiful greens and golf and some of the coolest tolls to play imaginable and they make you want to play the game. They make you want to hit a shot, and that's it's what's great architecture does.

00:30:02
Speaker 1: So you know what I love most about Santa Anita is that they created all that mounding and then they routed the golf course over it.

00:30:13
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, it has a purpose. I mean, all of it has a purpose rather than but it feels like, well you think that was all there. You don't. You don't think it was man made. And that's amazing, you know, that's and that's the ultimate goal of any architect. But the problem is where we are now. Everything's kind of in a hurry, and most projects don't have the time to sit there and and build something, move on to something else and come back and revisit it or massage it. They literally were being paid to drag it out, so they massaged everything they built landform wise would to make it look natural because they had time. So, hey, let's what are we gonna do today? Well, you know that mounds a little too PIMPLEI to me, let's go, let's go play with that and they did. So it's it's really fun to look at. But not many people are in our world are are are are willing there in a hurry to get a course open and built, and so it's tough to convince the client to let you take the.

00:31:21
Speaker 1: Time has lost money, you know, Yeah, yeah.

00:31:26
Speaker 2: That makes sense to me, understand it. But the problem is the equipment now allows four things to be built faster, and they didn't have the equipment to do that or the resources it was it did. They just they had to take more time, in part because it took longer whatever to refuel or to get get the water truck there or whatever it was. So they spent more time fine tuning things.

00:31:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's uh, will be interesting. I hope. I just I'd like to see some different stuff come up.

00:32:00
Speaker 2: But I think it's stifled. You know, it's just you know, this was the argument you saw, as you know, with Branda Sambly on the distance debate, was he kept saying, well, just just you know, start from scratch and build something with eighty five one hundred yards with the strategy, well you just it's just really hard strategy. You know, nobody wants it first of all, Yeah, forgetting the walk in the park element first of all is hideous the time. The scale of it is awful. That's the other thing. People have just gotten so much more into this to a reduced scale and have become so cold so quickly the things that are just big and bloated and and not enjoyable walks, and to the point where they're willing to to to risk safety, you know, with proximity of greens and teas, Whereas when I started getting into this and the SGCA had struck guidelines on you know, one hundred and fifty feet, and that's why I always got annoyed at rustic because people would gripe about there were the three long walks from green to tea at four to five and twelve to thirteen and seventeen to eighteen. I'm like, yeah, but we got away with some of the shortest green to tea walks anybody's done in modern golf. That liability attorneys and or whoever deals with that, we're telling architects you couldn't do well. People are now more tolerant of that and more appreciative of that, and they're willing to take the chance. And that changes the whole way the round goes as you know.

00:33:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's.

00:33:49
Speaker 2: Just something about it. There's just something so great about just walking right off the tee to green to the next tea. It's just it's an intangible it's hard to describe.

00:33:59
Speaker 1: It leaves more space for it leaves less space for rhythm to get disrupted. Yeah, you know, like it would be. It's like when you're listening to a great like record, like a great record and you have to flip it.

00:34:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, you get to paint.

00:34:18
Speaker 1: The whole experience gets disrupted, right, And that's kind of I feel like, I mean, it's the same thing what happens when you got slow players in front of you.

00:34:29
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, No, there's there's a rhythm and a cadence and all that. That's that's great. And when it's not great, people people notice it more now. So so yeah, I don't know, I'm not I wish somebody. It's amazing to me. Nobody's ever said, you know, the client wanted me to do something like the old course and really try to just replicate some of them, just not all, but some of the things, the nuances and the quirks and the the uh subtleties and the craziness of that. No, No, nobody's ever done that. Nobody's ever commissioned that, which is weird to me.

00:35:06
Speaker 1: It is surprising. Actually everybody talks about it, but nobody's ever tried to Yeah.

00:35:12
Speaker 2: No, yeah, nobody's ever said, hey, build build a build me an out and back course, but just tons of strategy and uh, double greens. And it's it's a little strange that that they haven't, because I'm sure there have been some properties that were you said, well, this is the only way this works is if we kind of go out and back. It's narrow at least in this part, and you know, you gotta have a few double greens. And part of that was just liability again. It was it was people were told you can't, you can't have double fareaways, joint fairways, and and now people are building those again because somebody finally said, look, you know, we just we'll just make people sign something before they play, and and well, we'll do it.

00:35:56
Speaker 1: I had to sign something before I played somewhere recently. I can't remember where. Should have made note of that. I don't know what I signed. I could have signed my my whole company I.

00:36:04
Speaker 2: Was going to ask you, did you read it? You didn't read it?

00:36:09
Speaker 1: Frida, what's that Frida egg might be be uh be owned by some other golf course.

00:36:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't know what you signed away? Well, so what would you? I mean, what do you what's the thing to you that that needs said?

00:36:28
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I always think back, like Bill Corr talked about Pete Die and how you know, Pete Die changed architecture twice, and what happened was everybody kind of followed and and did what Pete Dye did, but just didn't do it as well, right, you know, all the other architects. And I feel like we're in a similar situation here where we got like a game of follow the leader, like you know, and I just I'm just waiting for somebody to do something different, you know, I don't know what it is.

00:36:58
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he was responding to not liking Robert tren Jones and stuff and loving links and loving his lank for the Burrow and he and he was brilliantly sort of merging all those those uh those kind of wacky things and he was just crazy enough to try it, and that was great I don't know what the anti minimalist response would be, something that's expensive, bloated and big and tacky and ugly. And so that's the question.

00:37:30
Speaker 1: Like Mike, I thought my Strants was pretty good maximalism.

00:37:35
Speaker 2: You know, there's stuff that was like a combo.

00:37:39
Speaker 1: You know, there's like an art would be flair, but but it was created you know.

00:37:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think there are ideas out there, it's just will we'll, will somebody take the time. I mean, there's still a long way to go strategically. I don't think anybody's the idea that their very first golf course ever really created, uh and massaged and tinkered with to be what it is today is still the most strategic is a little embarrassing, I think for the game. I think that's it's it's weird, uh, knowing what we know and what we can do and be with the tools that that we don't have more uh strategic holes or the courses are down to four or five holes, that that's not even a technology thing. There is a there is a lack of time put into some of that that kind of thinking. But a lot of it too is just the erosion of with and Uh, now that we're kind of getting people back to wider corridors and being okay with that, maybe maybe now we'll have you know, more really crazy uh strategy holes where you could build something like the twelfth and the Old Course and and it's and and and from day to day your you're playoff the teau be within an area of one hundred yards and totally different. Uh wow. Although yeah, just whether somebody wants to build that, and there's just not gonna be the other thing. There's just not gonna be that many new golf courses built.

00:39:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. I also like.

00:39:18
Speaker 2: The building will be reimagining places.

00:39:21
Speaker 1: I'd love to see something like a a great golf course built on a site with with smaller scale, like in terms of the features, right, Like I feel like everybody's just going big, big, big, big and bold and like the the charm and of like a quirky course with small greens, you know, smaller bunkers that are you know, but like still having you know, wonderful strategy, like like a garden City pops in you know, yeah, where it's it's you know, like there's something I really respect about those types of courses because when I look at it. I think it's achievable for for all areas of the country because everybody's got an ordinary piece of land. Oh yeah, I don't.

00:40:22
Speaker 2: Know, no shortage, Yeah no, I think it's I mean, that's the thing you get at King Garrett, the in Scotland, the Hickory Course. It's just it's just this very small scale and smaller green, smaller bunkers and obviously much smaller drive, and it's it's it's just great. It's just fun. It's it's it's almost like like a you know, mini expanded backyard golf course. You know you imagined uh playing and as a kid, and it's just it's just it it's so much better. The walk is, or the conversation if you're playing with somebody, better, the flow, the rhythm, you get to the ball sooner, all of it just just just better. And I was having this conversation with Hank Haney, who was pretty pro distance ah. But but once we were talking about twelve holes, and once he got in his head he just kept repeating, he goes, if you started the game today, it'd be twelve holes. If if somebody said okay, here's the sport, and you go, yeah, it beat twelve holes because it would compact the scale of things and the time and the cost and the land needs and all that stuff. So, uh, but we're not going to blow out the game and start from crash. But I do think that that that the way society is going. It'll just just people will just do projects that are that are different that way.

00:41:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just I need nobody the band course, five hole course.

00:42:03
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and you know, again, the more golf courses aren't that are that are struggling, aren't advertising you know, the five hole evening set up that uh you know, we've got a five hole loop or whatever their loop is that works within reason to get you back to the clubhouse. That there has been that kind of thinking just just to keep people connected to the sport, because that's what a lot of people that you know, who don't are a member of a club, who can't go out and just play however many holes, they feel like that that you've got to find a way to to cater to them that way.

00:42:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, in my opinion, the greatest thing about being a member at a club is the ability to go out and play three or four holes.

00:42:46
Speaker 2: It's exactly, oh, no question and.

00:42:49
Speaker 1: The fact that no public golf course has figured that out really is crazy. Like, you know, the high end resorts do it, like stream Songs got those like Whiskey loops and uh, I know stam Valley's got a loop, you know, but nobody, none of none of the public golf courses have figured that out.

00:43:07
Speaker 2: No, no, you think by now that there would have been a little more imagination. But it all takes is one. You know. Michael Breid was telling me how his brothers come up with this concept of all these different things he's doing in his course, and one of them is a concept of the day I think, where the course is closed and you can rent a hole and essentially people come out and I think it's maybe on maybe on Sundays, I don't know, but it's it's and it's they picnic and they yeah, they turned the facility into something else for just a day, and but it keeps it relevant in the community. Some people probably bring out their clubs and hit shots around the green and maybe they have a birthday party. I don't know, but but it's just one of those little things you're like, yeah, that's a great, great way to uh kind of let people know you're here and reimagine the course, and you know, there's all sorts of things out there where people are not being very imaginative about how to how to either keep the course relevant in the in the region order just to keep irrelevant to golfers. Yeah, I mean, the more there are great stories that that's not you know, there are places that are doing the learning from a goat hill and and uh in winter Park, they're happening, but they need to start happening really fast. And it's just so tough with municipalities and more public off course owners that are just all all bottom line and uh, it's it's tough, yeah, to get them to understand these things. But but they are more open minded to it because they see where the things are headed.

00:44:50
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least now we have resources that's set pretty good examples, you know. Yeah, that's I think they're kind of like the innovators of golf development, you know. And and then private clubs seem to follow line, Like you're seeing more and more private clubs have short courses and you know, innovative practice areas after the resorts got the short course kind of booming. And yeah, and now and then and then you know, like all through golf history. Then the the municipalities follow after that. But it could be ten years, you know.

00:45:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's it's happening, so it's just it just better happened faster.

00:45:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, I uh, you got you got important stuff to do.

00:45:41
Speaker 2: You don't need I got a couple of items to write to get some clicks, keep my job.

00:45:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll I'll let you go. You're everybody can read you're you're writing at golf week dot com, Jeff Shackelford dot com. You got anything else going on, you can be are on Golf Channel obviously every Monday.

00:46:05
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, just catching my breath from the end of the year and enjoying that and enjoying kind of thinking ahead the next year for some features for Golf Channel and doing some writing and I did you know, we're getting to do some some reflection before it all starts again. But I don't think it's enough, but it's it's uh, it's nice to have it. And yeah, so I don't have any uh, anything on the architecture side to brag about, but you never know, there might be a few things and uh and then yeah, to keep an eye out for the mckeller issue three, we'll have our story on Santa Anita, and it will not answer all questions, but we're gonna at least tell the story and hopefully bring a little more appreciation to that one or other. You know, there's so many great WPA projects that are now and kind of places that are in decline that are the bump. They're so good and we need we need. Those are the places in the game that need the urgent priority because they're usually centrally located, they're usually well done, usually have a great clubhouse architect and it's like, why are we why are we not making these places better? So that's kind of the point of the story is to highlight just one example here in southern California that also happens to have just some masterful, masterful, amazing things that most people are totally oblivious to.

00:47:35
Speaker 1: It's, of course that anybody in the LA area should go see, because it's when I went out there thanks to Tommy's recommendation, just I couldn't believe the stuff out there so cool.

00:47:50
Speaker 2: Did you have an aerial? Did you have an old ariel with you?

00:47:54
Speaker 1: I did not.

00:47:56
Speaker 2: Okay O, that'll make it. That'll blow your mind even more because we have the phellows that the other day, and I had forgotten a couple of things that were just just crazy good and I love that tall Yeah, and that had to be like it's a it's a short part for with a boomerang green with a big mound in the front. Well, the mound had a bunker cut into it, things like that. So the bunker's gone and it's still cool. The mound is still crazy and funny and wacky, and but yeah, I had a huge bunker cut into it and it was like even ten times crazier than what you see now. Yeah, things like that, I mean there there were yeah, yeah, so much cool stuff. Amazing green complex is amazing little use. Yeah. The swale, I mean that's what you see out there. It's just like just a little the little grass tightly moaned grass swale that kind of meanders or or in the rough, doesn't it be tightly moan but which is a big part of Riviera to move water off. But it just just breaks up the ground and it just you know, so it's functioning and just looks cool and and it's just and then you get some side hill lies and we've had we were. The other thing we haven't got into is Santa Anita hosted the tournament the Santa Anita opened and Marty Fergo won one. H Mary, wait, yeah it wasn't. Yeah anyway, Lloyd Manger won one. And there's a legend that Hogan used to used to go there and practice in the wintertime. Is like his prep place. Who knows, maybe he knew somebody who lived out there, and this may have been before he got really famous and big. But loved all the side hill lies, loved the twelfth hole. So we don't know where these are coming from, but there are these little stories out there, so we're trying to find a few of those seems to have a thing that well Hogan loved or Hogan aimed at this or you know. So I don't know how many of those are true. I mean they have him aiming at the third palm or something at La Country Club on the fifth hole. Well, when he would have played there, the palms wouldn't have been tall enough. You know, things like that. You go, come on, you know.

00:50:02
Speaker 1: If Hogan visited your golf course, you've got some Hogan's.

00:50:05
Speaker 2: There's a legend, yeah exactly, Yeah, which is funny.

00:50:09
Speaker 1: I mean he's got two Hogan's Alley's. There's two Hogans Sally's.

00:50:13
Speaker 2: No Hogan zallys Riviera. That's that name was. That's the colonials stealing that one.

00:50:22
Speaker 1: I don't know.

00:50:24
Speaker 2: They say it's not fair.

00:50:27
Speaker 1: All right, we'll talk soon, Jeff and uh. Enjoy the enjoy the fall season here.

00:50:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, can't wait. It's here, all ranks.

00:50:38
Speaker 1: Talk to you soon. M