Aquaman with Ali Nahdee

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women and um are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the bel Cast. Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlin, you don't tell me how to captain. I don't tell you how to pirate or something? Oh okay, oh like the beginning of the movie. Yeah, like like that one character said, Oh, I wanted to do the thing where Patrick Wilson says, like you will call me ocean master? Like that would have been better that just I think is imprinted on my mind for you know. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. They're not all hits right at the top. Sometimes you gotta just get into it and it takes a little time. I'm going to find our groove. But welcome. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show in which we examine movies through an inter sectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test just very much as a jumping off point. But what is it, Jamie, Oh, the Bechtel test or the movie. I'll say both. I'll do both. We're doing. We're doing Aquaman today, movie from James one one of my faves. I love watching interviews with James Wan. And this isn't passing the Bechtel test. And here's why. The Bechtels test is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test. There's many different versions of it. Here's the one we use. We require that two characters of a marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something other than a man for two lines of dialogue. There are so many three hour movies that don't pass this simple metric, and this movie was almost one of them. But we'll get there later. But recovering Aquaman and uh, i'm I'm I'm very excited to discuss this movie particular, really because we're bringing back one of the greats we sure are. Our guest is Bi racial Anisha Nabe, founder of the A La Test. You remember her from our episode on Frozen two. It's Ali Nady. Hi, Hello and welcome back. Thank you for invited me back. I was so happy when I got your email and I was just like, yes, pumped about this, Oh my gosh. And you have brought us Aquaman. Tell us about your relationship with this movie. Okay, So going a little bit earlier than that, when you reached out to me, I was like really struggling with a movie to talk about. You know, I'm like, oh, man, because you know, Native people, you know, we're not a monolith. You know, we come from different cultures, different you know, parts of the country, different parts of the continent. So I'm like, okay, so there's a bunch of movies I wanted to talk about, but I don't belong to those specific groups. Maybe someone from those groups should be the one talking about it. And then I wanted to talk about Avatar, but I'm like, you know, maybe not for Thanksgiving, you know, maybe not for Thanksgiving, but um yeah. So I really struggled, and I was really thinking about it. And then finally Aquaman. You know, I realized that even if it's not specifically Polynesian or Hawaiian, you know, he is American, he is indigenous, and he's biracial, and so am I. And um that was the last film that I ever saw in a theater with my mom. So yeah, so there's gonna be a lot of moments I apologize in advance. I'm gonna cry probably a couple of times. And uh yeah, like this movie, ever since it came out, ever since I saw it with Mom, really spoke to me as someone who is biracial, as someone whose mother is white and whose father is Indigenous, and it really I felt represented in a way even if I wasn't Polynesian in Hawaiian. You know it really, it really did tug at my heart strings. And I felt kind of silly like saying that just because it is a goofy superhero movie that may or may not be that good. But I had a fun time. Oh, I had a last But I mean everyone deserves to be represented and seen in the whole spectrum of movies, whether they're goofy superhero movies that perhaps have plots that are messy. I mean, thank you for sharing that, Ali, I mean with that context in particular, like of course this is a special movie to you, and like it's I don't know, I was I had not seen this movie. I think I just generally I usually wait on superhero movies because I guess I don't I guess just not seeing them in theaters because I feel like everyone knows something that I don't and I'm like, I can't hang and they're gonna be mad at me. But I really I thought this was it was perhaps a bit long, but I I love James Wand's work, and I was very like, kind of surprised and impressed, having very very little understanding of Aquaman other than knowing him as like the goofy superhero because he is a fish um. But but outside of that, I didn't know anything. And I thought that the way that the themes that were kind of chosen for this this Aquaman story where was really cool and most of them worked really effectively, and for me, canonically, Patrick Wilson and Nicole Kidman wore the same wig for the whole movie, and that was awesome too. So yeah, I'm a I I think I'm a fan of this movie. Yeah, I think I am. Caitlin. Oh gosh, well, I saw it not in theaters, but I did see it on a plane. I could plane movie like nine months a year after it had come out, because enough by then enough people had seen it and I had heard I had heard the reviews, which were, I feel like, pretty mixed and still are as far as like, and I was Admittedly, when I first saw it, I was like, you know, the means on sand is is busy James won the j one. Yeah, when I first saw the action scene, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I was having a lot of sensory overload throughout the um. But then when we reached out to you, Ali, so this is our quote unquote Thanksgiving episode in the sense that we are releasing it on the day that a lot of Americans observed Thanksgiving. But we wanted to showcase an indigenous movie or you know, a movie by indigenous filmmakers, or a movie that has some Indigenous ties to it. And then we reached out to U Eli. And then when you came back to us with Aquaman, and I was like, oh, right, it didn't really occur to me that this would be like considered an indigenous movie. And then you spoke a little bit about it, and I was like, oh, yes, of course, and I knew that you would like bring this really great perspective that would give me a better appreciation for the movie, which like it already has. And I know that are like conversation Will and like, yeah, I still think about the Fresen two episode all the time. Because I feel like that might be like possibly the most that I've been like mind blown and swede on a movie that I was not at all expecting to see very much in in the course of an episode, Like I don't know, I think about it often. I'm really touched. I'm really glad that you guys like that and that my insight so much. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. And um, even going with Aquaman, like again, I had like a lot of turmoil because I'm not you know, Hawaiian and I'm not Maudy like um Tamira Morrison is the actor who plays his dad. He's Maudi, which is indigenous to New Zealand. And Um, it's a very important distinction that Native Hawaiians, while they are indigenous, they are not Native American. That is a big one, you know, like a lot of people try to lump them all in because we're indigenous and it's it's not their Polynesian. They are very adamant that, you know, they are not American, you know, but still you know, like it's still indigenous. And I felt more comfortable talking about this movie just because it isn't like Lelo and Stitch or Once We're Warriors where it is very distinctly a Hawaiian film, a Hawaiian culture, or a Maudi film and Maudi culture, you know, it takes place a main so and um, you know, like even though Aquaman's design in the movie movie is very distinctly you know, Polynesian, you know, with the tattoos and he speaks um. I think he says a couple of lines of dialogue that are in Maudi. That's what I was seeing just in the in the captions of the movie. But he um. Those actors could have been played by anybody, really, I mean, they could have been black, they could have been any race. And the fact that it is indigenous, like brought this entire perspective that really connected. Even if I'm not from those islands. So you know, I feel like I'm kind of in a safe gray area, you know, I don't want to feel like I'm talking over anybody. But it did speak to me. And when I did a lot of research for the movie, I saw that it spoke to a lot of biracial people just across the board. So right, and I mean you bring up an interesting point where some of the characters are indigenous, Aquaman is biracial, and that's acknowledged in the movie, but it's it doesn't become this thing where like so much of his identity is like, oh, I'm so torn and look at me being the victim of racism all the time and stuff like that. It's more about like his identity is just normalized within the context of the world he's living in, which and like you said, he could have been played by any actor of any color in a way that again just like normalizes his existence in the world, which is like what we're trying to move toward when it comes to representation. So that was something I really appreciated about it. Yeah, and I mean I just I love Jason Momoa, and like, you can't not love Jason Momoa as of this recording. I feel like we always have to be like yeah as at this time, No, but um, he's great and I feel like I really and we'll get into this too, but uh, going off of what you were just saying, Caitlin, I really was touched by how like thoughtful Aquaman was as a character and how he was like I mean not you know whatever. Every superhero has to be emotionally stunted if they're a man without fail like that's just the law. But I thought, I felt I feel like, you know, I'm trying to think of a specific example, but I feel like there's a lot of superhero movies where the like male hero like doesn't have feelings or like I don't emote, blah blah blah. And Aquaman is like struggling with his you know, finding his place in the world and trying to figure out where he fits. But he like talks about it with people and like talks about like even when he there's that scene, um when they're on the boat, Um, Aquaman and Mara are on the boat and he is talking about how he killed or was the what is the pirate character's name, David David. I think it's his name. I was like, what's his name because I thought it was like a superhero name, and I'm like, David David slash Manta. Yeah, yeah. But he's talking about how he feels like guilty for killing Manta's father, and I was like, I feel like you don't get those moments from superheroes very often. And then they have a discussion about his role in the world and where he wants to be. There was actually there was a lot of like scenes between Mira and Aquaman that we're reminding me of like Simba and Nala in the second act of The Lion King where she like shows up and she's like, you have to be king, and he's like, that's that's not my life anymore. And then eventually obviously that is a great point, Damie, thank you so much. Women be telling men they have to be the gang. It's just mean, it's a trope at this point. Um, I'm so excited to get more into the discussion. Let's be kept the movie and then we'll get into it. Okay. So we open on Aquaman's mom and dad meeting in. His mom is Atlanta played by Nicole Kidman. She is the Queen of Atlantis who fled to land to escape and arranged marriage. His dad is a human man named Tom played by Tamura Morrison, who is a lighthouse keeper. He's a lighthousekeeper. That is high. That's really hot, that he's a lighthouse keeper. He is really hot period and anything true. He's really underlated to be a lighthouse keeper. He's hot, but it doesn't hurt. He's also been the voice of Boba Fette for like nearly twenty years, I want to say, yeah, it was Django Fett and Clone Wars and that our Clone Wars attack the Clones. And then he's Mr Fette in some capacity and has been for a while. He's back in the Mandalorian and he's doing the book about the only time I have never liked him was in Once Her Warriors because he's like violently abusive in that movie, and it's like, ah, it's hard, like get a Maudie guest on the show to talk about it because it's good, but it is like I almost hated him. Thank god he made this movie because I love him again. But yeah, this one he's at he's being a good dad in a lighthouse and I love that. So Atlanta and Tom fall in love and they have a baby named Arthur. And then when Arthur is a small child, or vas the king of Atlantis or one of the kings, because you find out there several kings who Atlanta was arranged to be married to, he sends soldiers to capture Atlanta and bring her back, and she realizes that she has to return to Atlantis. I kept writing down Atlanta in my notes, so if I accidentally say Atlanta to refer to either Atlantis or Atlanta. With my accent, I'm going to call him Accaman at least twenty million times, so apologies to everyone. Yeah, I'm gonna say the wrong names all the time. So she kind of surrenders and returns to Atlantis in order to keep Tom and Arthur safe. I'm I'm such a fool. I was like, Wow, I can't believe the call given did this movie for two minutes? That's so interesting? But then I was like oh, and then later I was like, oh, right, right, she wouldn't do that. That wouldn't make sense. She does say that one day she will return, which is foreshadowing that's a plant. Can I just talk about like that whole introduction to the movie, because you know, Okay, I'm gonna try to keep it together. So my um my mom and I when we went and saw this movie, I had just moved home from Finland. I was going through divorce, and she had pay creatic cancer and was just about to go into receiving treatment for that. So, uh so watching this movie with her like right next to me, mhm, she um you know, it was kind of foreshadowing things that not only that I was going to have to deal with I'm I'm sorry, no, no, no, please take your time. But you know, also but also things that my dad was going to be dealing with, because because you want to be hopeful, and you want to be hopeful what you know, you know that that's not how it's going to be, you know, in the end, and um, her absence and the movie, you know, like it touches the characters so much. You know, like when he goes down to the dock every morning morning, yeah, you know, because she says that, you know, we'll be together again and she'll see again and she'll yeah, she'll she's like, I'll meet you here one day. And then of course Arthur, you know, like not having his mother and his life is damaging, you know, like it's it's painful, and especially like with this extra layer with racism and separation from your culture and not really belonging to that culture, you know, especially not fully belonging to a culture of someone that you love on top of that, you know, it's, uh yeah, it gets to you, you know when you're watching this as this biracial kid, um kid, you know, I was like thirty, but you know, but you know, watching it and uh yeah, just kind of sitting there in the theater with mom and watching this and kind of know whing you know, in the back of your head, what's going to happen? And uh, the whole introch of the movie first ten minutes of Aquaman. I'm a bad like this, um, but thankfully, thankfully the movie is a lot more fun than uh than this. The tone, the tone shifts a bit from that point onward, but it is, I mean, it is like it's really beautifully done, like that that scene of them, oh for sure, because they do. They look just like my parents. I mean, it totally looks like my parents. So that wasn't lost on me. And yeah, and I love I love that Aquaman loves his dad, you know, especially especially you know, like as someone taking care of my dad, you know, as someone taking care of your dad, you know, by yourself. Like no, I'm not really by myself, like my sister's helped too, but you know, I I live with him, and I take care of them and make sure that you know, the house is taken care of and that he's taking as me to send and stuff, you know, and seeing Aquaman's relationship with his father, as you know, you're his son, but you're also his best friend and you're also his protector. You know. It's uh yeah, yeah, I do want to talk about their relationship more because I feel like that's one of the big strengths of the movie. It's I mean then just like how it's so funny because it's like I feel like that like is a testament to the actors, Like you don't actually spend a lot of time with Aquaman and his dad, but when you do, it's you just like feel it. And his dad is so like awesome, yeah good and supportive, and you know, Aquaman is like, I'm not Aquaman and his dad's like, oh good, it's awesome. Like and again that that feels like an outlier in a superhero movie where it like someone who's like very I mean, even though Arthur can't me with his mom for the majority of his life, she's he's still very connected to her and thinks well of her. I don't know, it's just I was like, the superhero loves his parents so much and it's so nice. And then there's Patrick Wilson. Oh man, this guy, this asshole, the character, not the actor, the actor. Yeah, he's about to show up before we see him, though we briefly see Arthur a few years later on a school trip to the aquarium with the two worst bullies ever in any movie ever, Brutle. That was so much to me, like the scene from the first Harry Potter movie where like he's talking to the snake through the glass, except Arthur's talking to some sharks or something, and then there's like two Dudley's behind him trying to bully him, and they're like so much older than he is, which is he looks like he's about like four and they're like they're like two ft taller than him. I'm just like James Wands fanning out here, but I feel like things that happen in James wand movies just happened like weirdly at an eleven sometimes for no reason at all, And I feel like that bullying moment, I'm like, why is this so intense and why are the bullies so old? And like what is happening? Um? But then it or like the moment where it's like whatever, Mira and Aquamand almost kissed and then there's an explosion like next to their heads and you're like, Mr Wand that was not necessary, But I'm glad you did it. There's like twenty explosions in this movie that happened out of nowhere, and I'm like, why again, it's quite jarring. He's just like, we have the budget, let's do it. The important thing we learned from the scene is that Aquaman is able to communicate with marine life. Then we cut to him as an adult. He's now Jason Momoa. He's already a badass superhero. We see this sequence where he stops this pirate attack against a Russian submarine, and the main pirate is David a k a. Black Manta, who is not quite Black Manta yet, but he's like kind of having his origin story in the background, fully having his origin story. There's a Shakespearean monologue, there's a dramatic explosion death like yes, yes, yes, yeah. He's played by yah Yah abdul Mateen. The second so Manta now has a vendetta against Aquaman because Manta's dad dies during this attack and Manta blames Aquaman. I felt so bad for him, like I legit. I mean, like even watching it, I'm like, oh man, that was mean as hell. Yeah, because he's like asked the sea for mercy. But then yeah, Aquaman does feel like guilty about it later, so I'm glad he does, because I felt bad that was brutal. Like I know that they're bad guys, and I know that they like killed in us at people and they're stealing ship and I'm like, man, the dude is begging you to save his dad. Oh my god, I don't know if I could say no, I take him to jail, which I mean, honestly makes for an interesting superhero because a lot of superheroes are so morally pure and good that it kind of gets boring. Boring. So for Aquaman to be like, no, dude, see uh later and then and then for him to like experience like which is a pretty human thing to do. He's like acting in sort of the you know, the emotion of the moment, and then later he has like a conflicting emotion about it, and yeah, that's just all very human stuff. My feeling of that, Yeah, that sequence I thought, especially like thinking about it when it comes up again later in the movie, because I wasn't sure if it was like when that was going to come back. It was like, I feel like he was doing kind of like almost like a the way that Arnold Schwarzenegger would handle an action scene where it's like quip, shoot, murder kill, but then we as the audience have to stay in that scene and like, watch how it affects the people who like the cool superhero leaves behind. And oh that that scene of like David climbing like the ladder shot, I was like, Oh, it's so like, it's so sad. And I was like, I think that that probably happens in action movies and superhero movies all the time, but the movie doesn't be like, and we're gonna stay here too, just so you can see how upset these pirates are. Like that was good though, because I feel like that legit like solidified him as a good villain with a good reason to hate. He's strongly motivated. Yeah, oh my god. Yeah that scene at the mid credit scene at the end with him in Randall Park, I was like, all right, I'm I guess I'm excited for the next one. Let's go. Yeah. I feel like really bad for him though. Um. On another note, just because this movie it's so long, but it's it's so long, but it has so much stuf in it, so there's so much lower there's so many flashbacks, so much history, so much legend, and all of it is awesome, but it's like they only really have time for one bad guy, and this movie has too, so he kind of halfway through gets kicked out, you know, like, oh the way, Black Manta, I'm doing other cool things. It's like they should have just saved him for the second movie or this one, and then did something with the worm later. But I don't know. It's like I feel like he deserved a lot better. Every time he's in there, he's great, but it's like you deserved a little bit more. Give him more space, for sure. Yeah, I felt the same way. I hope that he's the like main I mean, I'm hoping that that mid credit scene sets him up as like the character in the second movie. I hope. I hope so too. Yeah, um, let's take a quick break right here and then we will come right back and we're back. So meanwhile, underwater in Atlantis, there are several different kingdoms. King Orm that's Patrick Wilson, is the king of one of them. He is Aquaman's half brother. Because Queen Atlanta is their mother, they obviously have different fathers. His right hand man is Volco. Okay, Willem Dafoe, which he keeps calling him his vizier, which I've only heard that word applied to jaffar. Same, So I was like, oh, okay, so William Dafoe is the Jaffar of this palace, except a good guy and not a villain. He's nice Jaffar. Also, it didn't occur to me to like halfway through the movie that Willem Dafoe is I feel like one of the few people who's in the m c U and the d C you as like super different characters. He's a villain in the m c U. It's also weird to see William Dafoe not as a villain. Yeah, so that's quite something. Yeah. I think the only time he played like a hero or otherwise protagonist was in Platoon. Oh sure, and let's not forget the Last Temptation of Christ or whatever the Jesus later really Jesus famously a hero. Yeah there, And this is another I mean, I guess William Dafoe doesn't get near the lighthouse in this movie, but it's another movie with the lighthouse that he's in. Wow. Wow, good point, Jamie, thank you, thank you. That's why they paid me the big blocks. Um. So, King Orm is trying to unite at least four of the seven kingdoms so that he can become Ocean Master and legally declare war against the surface dwellers at which he wants to do because he thinks humans are going to be the demise of Atlantis and everyone living in Wonder, which we are because we are destroying our oceans. Um, I don't even think that's preachy, Like you know how in like fern Gully and stuff like that, Like the environmentalist issue kind of feels a little too on the nose. It's like, I mean that's kind of valid. Man, We are destroying the ocean, and the ocean is massive and vast, and we're sucking it all up. So yeah, that's another reason I'm really psyched on the Randall Park character because it seems like he's gonna like he's like an environmentalist, Like he's going to bring all of that into the next movie as well. Yeah. I mean, like Patrick Wilson obviously, big old evil villain like spouting some of the nastiest rhetoric you could imagine in this movie. But humans are destroying the ocean. I mean, but then Nicole Kidman kind of shows up the end and she's like, no, they're not. It's like, that's we are who we are. I do like when a villain is motivated in such a way that is compelling or that like the odd it's gonna understand where they're coming from, even if we don't agree with like the execution of their plan or whatever it is, but like would be deeply fun character. But yeah, we're like, yeah, you're not wrong. Humans are destroying all of the environment. Okay, we're back on land. This Atlantean woman, Mara played by Amber Heard, she comes to the surface to relay all of this information to Aquaman and she's like, we need your help. We need to stop Orm again. Nala basically being like, you gotta come and be our king because he is the rightful heir to the throne because he's the firstborn son of Atlanta. And that's the moment you realize, Oh, Jason Momoa, even though he's like six years younger than Patrick Wilson, is supposed to be older than Orm's character. He's taller and that equals older. And then also Nicole Kiman is supposed to be playing Patrick Wilson's mother, she's like seven years older because don't think too hard about it, and she's only twelve years older than Jason Momoa. And yeah, I'm like, okay, you did not cast an age appropriate actor to play their mother. Well, I don't know what kind of like packed that Patrick Wilson and James Wan have, but Patrick Wilson has to be in all of his movies or except for Malignant, But Patrick Wilson isn't in like literally all of James Want's movies. So that's I think why he's here. Something interesting that, you know, upon watching Aquaman uh several times was um or you know, like, I don't know if he's a good villain, but the interesting thing about him is that there's room for like complexity because you know, he benefits from a society and a system that gives him power, of course, and it's interesting that he doesn't hate his dad for killing his mother. You know, there's never a moment where it's like Atlantis was sucking wrong for what they did to my mom. This is bullshit because it's easier to blame it on Aquaman, like if it wasn't for you, and it wasn't for your dad, my mom would still be alive, and this is your fault, which goes into like the racial implications too, because he's totally an ocean colonizer, like an ocean supremacist, like he is started by the end of the movie, he's like spouting pure blood like he's He's like, they go all the way with that characters. Yeah politics, Yeah, I noticed that as well, and like contrasting that with how Aquaman feels of like I sort of assumed just based on having seen superhero movies. I was like, Okay, Aquaman is going to blame himself for what happened to his mother, and then that's the journey of like it wasn't all my fault, but it's like it's more detailed than that. And I really liked that scene with Aquaman, mean, with will of Dafoe and he's saying like the opposite of what Orma is saying. He's like he's furious at the system that allowed that to happen to his mother, and I just feel like, yeah, it speaks to like how different their environments were and how different their upbringings were, where like Patrick Wilson was raised by a fascist and you know, Aquaman was raised by a very kind lighthouse keeper, and it makes a difference. Patrick Wilson is white, and because that's the other thing, Like, um, with Aquaman, there's never like a line or anything in the movie where you know, he'd be like, well, you think you're special. White people treat me like shit all the time on land. You guys aren't any different. Blah blah blah, you know what I mean. And it's you know, there's never a line of dialogue like that. But for the biracial people in the room watching this, it's like, oh, yeah, of course he would think that way, you know. And of course Aquaman is going to be thinking, you know, oh, it's the fucking system. You know, it's Atlantis and these racist as white mermaids that killed my mom for loving a brown man like human. But the human in this specific example is indigenous. And the other guys like, no, it's you. So that's interesting, Like it's not subtle. I wouldn't say that it was subtle. I think it's just apparent and just kind of treated like duh, if you get it, you get it. Yeah, the metaphor is is pretty clear. That's another thing. One more thing. Sorry, but like, um, It was interesting to me because as awesome as like Polynesian Mermaids would totally be, I like that the Atlanteans are white, I guess, and the humans are indigenous, like at least in this story, because it could have been so easy, like because I've seen this so many other times where it's flipped where it's like, oh, well, I'm the outcast and I'm the allusion and the allegory for racism, even though I'm Harry Potter and super white, or I'm Sabrina Spellman and I'm white and they're calling me half breed. But you know, it's like, no, you're not the allusion to racism. It's like the racism is present, but it's kind of taken the backseat to species. I guess I didn't connected that, but yeah, it's like that it's not the like one to one mothering narrative that we've seen a ton of times, and I think that gives it a level of sincerity too, as far as like the allegory, because it could have been, you know, takeaway Atlantis and everything. It could have been another story about racism and mixed ethnicity and all this other stuff. But you know, it's like Okay, so it's gonna be about this with the Mermaid politics, who just so happens to have a biracial Polynesian indigenous actor, And I'm like, okay, that's better a little bit more sincere, Yeah, I appreciate that. Um. Okay, So let's see. Mara has shown up and she's like, yeah, Aquaman, you gotta come be King, you gotta stop orm Um. And she also tells him about this sacred trident that had once belonged to King at Land that if he can find he can use it to dethrone arm and he's like, no, that trident's just a myth. Then orm causes this huge tidal wave that destroys this coastal town and nearly kills Aquaman's dad. It sends a lot of trash that had been dumped in the ocean back onto Land as sort of like a warning from orm. So this causes Aquaman to agree to accompany Mera and help her stop arm. So they go to Atlantis and meet up with Volco, who, by the way, we learned through flashbacks that throughout Arthur's childhood, Vocal has been training him basically how to be Aquaman, like be this magnificent fighter and teaching him how like you know, nice Jaffar, nice Jafar. You you can breathe underwater, you can see underwater, you can talk underwater, all this stuff. So he's been like training Aquaman his whole life. It is so fun to see scenes of Willem Dafoe being so nice, Like it's just like wow, where that like scene where they jump off the cliff and he's like, you was see something cool? Of like this vibe is unfamiliar to me. This is nice, so good. I love that scene. One of my favorite shots in the movie is when they're sitting on like the edge of like that cliff under the water and just watching all the mantas like swim by. Yeah. Like this movie is so gorgeous in theaters, Like just seeing it on a big screen was just a treat. Another thing. But what's his name? Volco? Yeah? Yeah, okay, So how do I tie this in? Let's um, So, once upon a time in the United States, it was illegal for Native Americans to practice our religion, our culture, you know, residential schools and just government policy like you could not be Native and if you did have anything as far as like a rattle a drum, sweet grass stage, you know, anything like that. If you were caught practicing and praying, you know, you could go to jail for it. You could be imprisoned for it. So this part of the movie, again it's subtle, but you know, when you're Native and you're watching it, you know, it's kind of clicks. It's like he's learning about his culture in secret because they don't want him to know about how to be Atlantean. It's like, you're a human and we don't want you here anyway. But it's like learning about that element of who you are when you're disconnected from it, and learning about the history and the customs and how to fight and how to use your abilities. I mean, in this movie, it's talking to fish and swimming and finding out who you are. But still it's like finding out this wonderful part of your family and your history and the culture that you belong to. And there's just a small observation. I just really I really like that totally layers this movie's I was like, let's we start talking to Ali. I'm going to be fully like this is the greatest movie ever made, you know what, much like the Ocean, this movie is deep it can be, and sometimes it's shallow, shallow, just like the ocean. Okay, so let's see so Volco. They meet up with Volco and then he has a clue about the final resting place of this sacred trident. But before they can do anything about it, Aquaman is captured and brought to Orm, who Aquaman then challenge is to a duel, and the terms are that if Aquaman wins, Orm will stop the war. If Orm wins, he's like, Aquaman, you're over. So I guess he's gonna kill I'm not sure exactly what fusing terms, which quickly becomes clear that they really should have hashed out what the terms were well, because because he's like, oh, you know, the war will be over, and he's like, but if I win, you're over, which is funny, so yeah, or this evil but sometimes he's such a petty little asshole that it's almost like it's the same like brain scratch that when you see a succession character acting out where you're like, you're being so silly right now. When he screams like I am ocean Master, You're like, okay, are you You're not giving me ocean master in that wig? I don't think so oh, I love it. Right Here we get another quick flashback where Vocal is training teenage Aquaman, and this is also when Vocal reveals that his mother had died long ago and that she was sacrificed by King or VA's, who had gotten very jealous when he found out that she had had another son with a human man. Okay, so I feel just because of that detail, you know, that he found out that she had a child with another person, and that was enough, not even another person, but like human, that was enough to execute her. And I mean, just judging from the fact that she fled this arranged marriage and spent years away, you know, out of the sea and with this person, and that they came after her, you know, um, I think it's kind of safe to assume that or may or may not have been conceived of rape. I think that's fair to assume that that is definitely yeah, or at least like coerced into. Like obviously she was forced to marry this person. But you know, Mira's being in this arranged marriage as well, but she's kind of you know, like, oh well whatever, you don't have to love someone to marry them. It's a political thing. But this very clearly was not the case with Atlanta, and uh, I'm glad that they just kind of leave that up in the air, you know where it's like, yeah, this is possible. It doesn't need to be directly harped on addressed and yeah, but it's it. I mean, that is like unfortunately, yeah, very very conceivably true. And I thought it was, I mean, just another I mean, in this movie, it is interesting. Is written by two men, one of whom is a former cop, so you know, uh, former l ap D police detect of getting worse really amazing, cool, cool and great. So I don't want to like repeatedly, I'm like someone else in the room came up with this idea, because I you won't see me handing it to an l apt officer. But I did like with Atlanta and Mira, two characters who are in who are at different points in time, in virtually the same situation, but dealing with it differently, And that was again just more than I expected from a superhero movie with a gigantic budget. I feel like, if you have to with the you know, they're basically the same person, and you know, Aquaman is like, wow, Mommy's girlfriend now. Life is wild, you know. But but Mira and Atlanta, in spite of how similar their predicament was, they think of the situation and approach the situation very differently because they're different people. And I hate that. I didn't expect the movie to treat them as if they were different people, because I feel like we've seen Mommy's girlfriend now so many times. But I appreciated that at least they did that. Yeah, And I think it's because, like Mara and Orm have this conversation, it's like very brief where she's like, do you think your mother would want to see her two children kill each other? And it sounds like they grew up together, like she must have known Atlanta when she was younger, and she must have known Orm when she was younger, And that's probably why she's a little bit more chill about like, Okay, if I got to marry my best friend, whatever, but you're wrong to marry this fucking dork from school who at least she is it her. Okay, So this big battle between Aquaman and Orm is about to happen in like the Ring of Fire or whatever thing. It's so big. It's this fight is so large So they have this battle where kind of neither of them end up winning because Orm is sort of incapacitated in some way. And I think it's because of me to understand that Mara uses her like water manipulation powers to sort of like whatever, fuck him up a little bit, and then it allows her and Aquaman to escape. Is that what happens? Something like that? It's all I remember was just the scoreboard where it's like, look at how awesome Orm is and then look at the stupid drunk native man who wants to fight him. Right, So I feel like Mara is like we can talk about this later too, But I feel like Mara is playing her cards really well, where she's like effectively convincing Orm that she's like his ally and yeah, like this freaking Aquaman guy is such an imbecile or something like that. And then she's really just like doing this to get away from Orm because she realizes like what a scary tyrant he is. Yeah, anyway, so this fight happens, Mara and Aquaman escape, and then they head to the Sahara Desert to follow this clue that will lead them to the Lost Trident. As they enter the Sahara it just blasts the worst cover of Total's Africa ever by people, and it comes out of pitou is saying, oh my god, I like blacked that out already somehow, that there's a pit Bull song in this movie. It comes out of nowhere. Because overall, like the soundtrack of the movie is pretty cool. It kind of sounds like Tron Legacy or something. You know, it's pitful, except for the end credits song where there's a song where it's just like everything happens movies. I also like that there. Yeah, this whole section of the movie. I was like, this is like the not obviously the same because they were all over the world, but I was like, this is like the National Treasure section of the movie where they're like collecting different things and they're like, we need this, we need this, and that leads to another clue, and that clue at least doing another clue. Yeah, the scene where Jason Momoa is like and this statue means this, this statue means that. I was like, whoa, he's doing the He's doing the Benjamin Franklin cage thing. Yeah, It's amazing how Aquaman becomes National Treasurer for like thirty minutes as I was like, all right, sure. So they go to the Sahara Desert. They find this like secret stand chamber where they're able to play King Atlant's ancient message, which then leads them to Italy. I think they're in Italy somewhere that region, because there's like a Pinocchio joke that is planted and paid off when they go to Italy. For some reason, You're like, what's happening? Hilarious. I really like that scene though in Sicily, just because earlier when she takes Aquaman to Atlantis for the first time, and I think I read in an interview where James wa was talking about this how he wanted the audience to like experience Atlantis the way Arthur does, you know, for the very first time, and just the wonder and the amazement of it when he's flying through and he's seeing this metropolis under the ocean and all of this amazing, beautiful things, you know, So that scene is amazing. And then when he and Mirror are walking around the desert and she's talking about people destroy our oceans, you don't bow your garbage into our seas and blah blah blah, and this is the worst place ever, and he's like, yeah, but we've got you know, big mountains and beautiful forests and big lakes. You know, I mean, like we've got some stupid people running the place, but you know, like the land is beautiful too, And she doesn't really like pay that any attention until she's in Sicily and then we see her, you know, experiencing Sicily for the first time and seeing all the flowers and the fruits and the people and that little girl at the fountain, and she's just it was so good, unless she starts eating roses and then she's like yum yum, Like this is strange. It was good. I like that, but I don't know. The movie has scenes that works so so well, and it almost feels like a different movie because it's like when it's excellent, it's excellent, and then when it's really really clumsy, it's it's very clumsy all over the place. Yeah. Yeah, so they're they're following this next clue, but then Black Manta shows up, who has been absent for a while, who has been absent for a while, but who has also established this alliance with Orm, and so Orm is like kind of making Manta do some of his bidding and trying to get him to kill Aquaman Um. So he shows up and attacks Aquaman and Mara. There's a big fight sequence there. They eventually get away and head towards the location of the trident, which is in this kind of like underwater oasis cave place where surprise, guess who's there, Queen Atlanta. He's going to cry again very soon. I did not see that coming. I did not see a coming. I thought, yeah, yeah, the audience and Aquaman has everyone basically, everyone has been led to believe that she died because she was sacrificed to the trenches, but she managed to survive, and she's been like hiding and living in you know, seclusion this whole time. So she and Aquaman reunite. They have a nice tender moment, and then Aquaman goes and gets the trident, which he's able to do because he is the one true king. He gives this whole kind of speech about how he's he didn't come here because he thinks he's worthy. He's he came here because like this is the only choice he has to like save humanity basically, because he's also talking to this giant fish creature who sounds like flotsam and jetsam from The Little Mermaid whatever that was. I loved that big scary fish. I was like, I watched that scene twice because I was like, Oh, it's just this this mean fish and that has like a really hard grip, like and he was like, You're never gonna get this trident from me. And then Aquaman is like, well if I did, and he's like, oh, you can hear me. And Aquaman is like yes, and he's like all right, see if you can get it, and just like totally neutralized threat in the space of like one kind of cute. Jason Momoa's performance in that scene also was like I just I just Jason Momo is so fun Like his delivery in that scene where I don't know if maybe maybe it was a choice, maybe he just like there was scratch audio and he wasn't hearing the voice he was responding to, but the scary flots of jets and fishes, Wait, you can hear me, and yes, I can hear you, and I can understand you. And it was just like, oh, it's just so funny. I loved that scene. There are two wonderful lines in the scene it's when Arthur's talking to uh, his mom. He's saying, you know, he still walks at the end of the dock every morning waiting for you, which you know, ugly cry. But then um, she says something. She's like, you need to be more than just a king or whatever. And he's like, what could be greater than a king? And she says a hero? And I'm like, you know, that was the point where I'm like, this is the indigenous representation that I really just want for like little kids, you know what i mean, like, you know, just a hero. You know, like I wonder if that is how like because I used to work at a gym for a little bit and you know, would work with little kids, so one of the bonding experiences between me and these kids would be superhero movies. And just how much my black students loved Black Panther so much, you know, like that was their hero. And it's like Aquaman. When she said that line, I'm like, this is what more than ever, I feel like the little kids in the audience, you know, the little biracial kids, the Native kids, the Hawaiian kids, you know, like they don't need a king, they need a hero. And they need someone who's gonna do these incredible things and who look like them and are special and are you know, extraordinary. And then when he's talking to the scary Cathulhu Monster and she's telling them, you know you're not worthy and blah blah blah, what makes you think that you're worthy? And he just straight up tells her He's like, I came. Let me read it, says I came to save my home and the people that I love, the Trident is their only hope. If that's not good enough, often, screw you. I'm like, I love our King, Batman, who Batman? Who? Wonder Woman? Who? Right? Which is like, again, such an interesting deviation from so many superhero movies or so many like I guess um like chosen one narratives where it's like you have to prove your worth and you have to like do the thing that proves like but in a way that feels different from because he proves his worth by like acknowledging that He's like, no, I'm not any more worthy than anybody else. I'm just here in this time of need, and I'm like I need to take action against this TYRNT and like that's you know, if that makes me worthy, then so be it, and that is what ends up happening. But like I feel like so many other chosen one narratives or I don't know, it's just I really liked that about this where it's just like he's like, no, I like, I'm not special. I just like am here to help. And then it's like cool, that makes you worthy. Hell yeah, but that means you are special, like special. I was like, Jason, don't be so humbul you obviously are going to get the trident that it is. The other thing is like legit. He he like saying, you know, like I know I'm not worthy. I know I probably can't be king. I know I'm probably not the best choice. I'm like, motherfucker, You're fighting with Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman in the previous movie, and you haven't mentioned that once, Like bro, I would have thrown that in warm space. You're welcome, Mr Humble. I always forget that because I just yea, I don't have the correct brain for it. I'm like, oh, yeah, he knows Batman, Superman, Yeah, those are his past. Yeah. I didn't see Justice League, not the theatrical cut, nor the Snyder cut, So I always forget that. So Aquaman has already been introduced as a character into this cinematic universe a year prior to this, I believe, because Justice League was released theatrically in twenty seventeen, So he's already existed in this universe as this character fighting alongside Yeah, and I think chronologically that all happens before the events of this teen Aquaman movie takes place too. Yeah, he's already done all this like superhero ship and then now he's like saving the world on his own. Uh. Yeah, I always forget that because I skipped Justice Leave. It's I'm sure that they sort of want you to forget that. They don't want you to like hyper fixated on all the cool ship because it kind of undercuts the story. But I mean, I don't know the script did make me forget. I just sort of assumed. I was like, well, I guess he just hasn't met them yet, because like you're saying, Ali, I'm like, I wouldn't shut up about it, Like yeah, I was like, listen, orm you wouldn't have an ocean if I hadn't saved the planet from Steppin Wolf. So you're welcome Ocean Master. Yeah, Mr Ocean Master, how do you like that? That Ocean Master line read really killed me? It's like, God, how do you say that with a straight face? Very funny? Wild? Okay, So there's just a little bit of the story left. Uh, so you know Aquaman getting the trident. Meanwhile, orm is launching an attack against some of the other sea kingdoms because I think he's trying to like gain control over them so that he can launch this attack against the surface. That whole thing. I was like totally understand what he's trying to do. But then Aquaman shows up with the trident to stop arm. There's another big battle. Aquaman and may kiss at some point, um because she does have to be his girlfriend. Not only like it comes out of nowhere, but it's like, you know, it's Jason Momoa and she could die in the next scene, so fucking get him. But also I wonder if that's what kissing Jason Momoa is like, where you just like the chaos just kind of stops that there's like explosions and it's just time stops. I mean, like sucking Lisa Bone, I know it's like that every day. Could she come out and confirm. Is that what it's like the kiss Aquaman? Yeah, please let us know, Lisa. I also had that thought that I was like, oh, if I kissed Jason Mamoa, I probably would also feel like a whale just took me away to some a second location afterwards, because a whale just shows up and she's like, I gotta go, and like later, I hope that that is the Jason Mamma experience, that that a free Willie shows up and it just takes you where you need to go. Afterwards, so they're having the big battle, Aquaman eventually wins against Orm. Atlanta shows up and she's like my two sons, and then Aquaman shows Orm mercy. Orm is taken away as prisoner, and then the people of Atlantis accept Aquaman as their king a k a. King Arthur, which is also funny it it makes you think. And then the movie ends with Aquaman's mother and father reuniting on the dock and having a beautiful kiss, and then we get some voice over from Aquaman saying that their love that probably never should have had, like you know, it wasn't supposed to happen, Uh, it did happen and end up saving the world the end, you cry, cry, cry, cry, cry, Cry cries so much. Let's take a quick break and then we will come right back to cry and discuss, and we're back where would we like to begin? I mean, there's not a ton ton ton of um. There are a few context things that we should touch on before jumping back into the story maybe, but the things that stuck out to me was I did I was like God. The screenplay ultimately was co written by a top uh so will be what the fuck um co written with David Leslie Johnson McGoldrick, which is a lot of names in a row. We've also got a story by credit from Jeff john Yeah, question Mark. Oh, I just I mean, most of this crew seems to be like with the kind of the outlier of Will bel I don't really know why why he's here, and I kind of wish he wasn't. But um, it seems like James One was allowed to kind of bring his like team of people he usually collaborates with to this movie, which is cool because it looks like a James One movie and not like they just threw all these DC who house people at him and he didn't get to make the movie. He wanted that said a lot of men, really male, heavy production, like top level production stuff. Is all all guys, And are they I know James one isn't white, but are the other writers? Are they people of color? Are they? Uh? Let me double check, but I do not believe. So, yeah, James Won is Chinese Australian. Will Beal is a white cop. Uh. Yeah, I was doing it. I was doing a quick Google of everyone, and it is it is mostly white guys at the top of this project. That's a little I don't know, that's a little surprising, especially with all the nuance that this film kind of has with the racism. I know that like just tangentially that like these movies are like there's writer's rooms that take place around these movies, and those writers don't get credited. So I'm assuming, I just I'm assuming that whatever goes right in this movie, a white cop didn't write like he wrote all the Nazi ship probably but yeah, yeah, he's like, oh orm, I'll take orm. I got it. Like, but yeah, I just want to igno and and and then also just um for the five times this episode shout out James Won because you gotta love him. He's and if you and if you haven't really gone into the want of verse he made. I never get like at another certain people you think of and you're like, I'm so upset at you for being so smart, so young and so like. He made the Saw movie, the first Saw movie, when he was like twenty five or something. It's ridiculous he did so he did the conjuring he did in City as he did like he did, he just did Malignant. He's like forty three. I was like this man, and he seems like such a sweetie pie. James. I wonder, I wonder if super Yockey has made James Wan Sure, I would like one. I think. Another important piece of context for this movie is that canonically early I guess, at least as far as like comic book character Aquaman was created as a white character. And then when Zack Snyder whoever was in charge of casting Jason Momoa as Aquaman in Justice League, basically was just like, this doesn't need to be the white character that we saw in the comic books. We can just kind of cast whoever they cast. Jason Momoa, who is native Hawaiian and to some extent Native American. On I believe his mother's side, but he I think doesn't necessarily claim as much heritage there, so he um just give that some clarity. Yeah, yeah, Jason Momoa is a bit of a problematic faith just because he has played Native American characters in the past. He was in a movie, uh called Rhoda Paloma I think is how you say it, where he played a Native character. He was on a show called The Red Road where he plays a Native character. And he was on Frontier where he plays a Native character. And again, you know, and distinction there is, you know, like Hawaiians are not Native American and Native Americans are not Hawaiian because it's you know, different different histories, different cultures. So in an interview for The Red Road on Sundance TV, the lady interviewing him asked him if he has any Native heritage, and he says, you know, my grandmother she has a little bit of pawny, but I wouldn't say that I have enough. And I think that that's an important distinction, kind of problematic phrasing, you know, in a way, you know, you don't really want to talk about blood quantum and go into that, Kara, but you know the fact that he does acknowledge, Like, you know, I'm a little bit uncomfortable claiming to be Pawny, even if Grandma might have been. I am Hawaiian, So I'm glad that you know, at least with Aquaman, it's like, yes, this is Hawaiian, this is Polynesian, but it's also in Agenois and American, and you know, like he can really I don't know, I feel like this creation was very much part of Jason Momoa's influence, and uh, it feels more sincere that way, because it's like, dude, stop sucking playing native characters. Let a native person play the character. I honestly wasn't aware of the full, like the full context of his history there. Thank you for for letting us know. Uh, we started to touch on this, and Alie, you were speaking to this already, but I'm interested to hear you speak more about kind of your connection with this movie, especially in terms of like it's indigenous representation. It's an indigenous superhero that there aren't really any other examples of that by racial representation. I mean, yeah, yeah, if you want to speak to that anymore. Well, it was interesting when I did my research and so many people, you know, like wrote these articles about Aquaman being like the first actual big biracial superhero and like I even was like trying to you know, I'm like, is that correct? You know, like I'm going back, and the only one I can really think of was Brandon Lee and The Crow because he's Chinese and white. But little kids were not watching the Crow, you know, like the same audience watching the Crow was not, you know, like it's not as accessible as Aquaman was. So in the same way that Blade and Black Panther are different, Like people try to say that Black Panther isn't the first black superhero. That was Blade, and I'm like, yeah, but children were not the target audience for Blade. They have it that was like R rated right, it was like it's very gory and graphic, and Blade wasn't presented as like look at this role model for children, like no, no, yeah. And even Jason Momoa, like in an interview, so he said, is honestly to be the first mixed race Superheroen is like, really, is is there not one? He's like, that's a huge honor. And to play it so close to who I am and all of his imperfections, I get to play it in a way where you can really slip between those two worlds. And I'm excited for the world to see it, he says, I haven't seen Aquaman yet because I'll be able to see something with my kids for the first time, and I'm going to be really emotional and affected and to hold their hands. It's going to be a really cool moment to be a dad with a ten year old and eleven year old. It's pretty special. And yeah, you know, like that's what I think too. Like again, you know, I used to work with kids at the gym and stuff, and there was this one specific little boy, you know, and he's black. I don't know if he was by racial. I think both of his parents are black, but he had these beautiful like amber colored sort of their brown eyes, but they kind of had like yellow in them a little bit. And he would like, oh, I have eyes like Aquaman. You know what I look like. You know what I mean. It's like I love that, you know, like this kid who clearly is like, even if Aquaman isn't black, there's something you know, it's a brown superhero. It's by racial superhero. It some elements of him look like him. And it's like, you know, that's what I want for these kids, you know, especially indigenous kids, you know, who really might not have a role model like Superman or Batman or something to that extent. You know, like seeing yourself on screen is is very important, especially like when I think about representation for me. You know, there's a million actresses out there who look like me. There's a million characters who look like me, but I don't feel like they are me. But then when I see Native actresses, you know, in shows like Reservation Dogs or you know, anything else, really I'm like, I don't feel like that's representing me either, because I'm so white passing and biracial and not really connected to the culture. And I think that's why I gravitated so much towards Frozen two when it came out, because it was you know, an aquaman too in this extent, especially with the dad and you know, the parents looking so much like mine and all the other stuff. I hope that answered your question. I kind of went out, that's like, that's so, that's so lovely to hear, Like, yeah, this movie, I mean this, And again it's like this movie is it's so interesting to me because this movie wasn't marketed in that way at all, Like it was just like, here's the Aquaman movie. And then like I just and and maybe I just wasn't engaging with I feel like I'm my my feed does not superheroes don't come up in my feet a lot. Uh So maybe I missed this course, but I didn't hear much about it either. I mean it was like I was very pleasantly surprised that and it's and it just fits into the story so seamlessly. Yeah. Another thing I think is really interesting about the narrative is that Aquaman the character being mixed being by racial even though it's never explicitly stated in the movie like he's half Atlantean and half specifically indigenous human, it's always just like he's half human and half Atlantean. Like we've mentioned, there's like a clear allegory that can still be drawn because he you know, he still has indigenous roots. And then you can see this allegory of like, yes, he's half white because Nicole Kodman is a white woman and half indigenous. So even though there's like not an explicit discussion happening about that in the movie, really there's like this you know, clear allegory that's being presented. Even so, in the movie, him being mixed is a thing that gets commented on quite a bit, both by his like enemies who see him being mixed as like a travesty. You know, he's called whatever clearly like slurs by Patrick Wilson's character, by King Orm versus other you know, his allies are constantly reinforcing this. You know, you're the bridge between these two worlds. We need you, and this is part of what makes you worthy because you have these two experiences, you have backgrounds from both of these worlds, both of these people that can unite us because there you know, there's Nicole Kidman shows up at the end and she's like, there aren't two worlds. Actually it's not. You know, the surface people and the underwater people were all from the same planet. We are one. And again, like the voiceover, the voiceover in the end is you know Aquaman saying, you know, my father was a lighthousekeeper, my mother was a queen. They never were meant to meet, but their love saved the world. They made me what I am. A son of the land, a king of the seas. And it's like this celebration of his like kind of bicultural identity is what saves the world. Let me comment on that one. Ah, the end of the movie kills me. Yeah, okay, so um when he says that, I know, he's like, you know, speaking in terms of like Atlantis and people, you know, but so saying, you know, like they were never supposed to meet, but their love saved the world. It's like that got to me, you know, like for a number of reasons. Um, you know, all things considered, my parents were never supposed to be you know, m and uh, my dad's parents certainly were never supposed to me. You know. It's like with residential schools and colonialism and all these terrible things that have happened, you know in the United States and Canada. It's like Grandma was never supposed to be alive, you know, It's like Dad was never supposed to be alive. You know, like technically none of us are supposed to be here. And you know, like when you put it in that perspective, what do you think that you know, against all odds, like we're here, and we're here because grandpa loved a Native woman and they had children and then my dad met my mom. You know, like how easily. Could Grandma have been sterilized at those schools or could have died at those schools, Like we're still finding you know, all of these bodies of these two oldren you know, that are buried at different residential schools and stuff, and it's like that could have been any of them, you know, that could have been Auntie, that could have been Grandma. You know, like the state could have taken Dad away from her, you know. And it's like so many things could have happened where they were never supposed to meet, and they did. And uh, even then, like once upon a time, like interracial marriages were illegal into like the seventies, you know, like they could have went to jail for being married, you know, or you know, having interracial children. So it's uh, you know, against all odds finding each other in this life. I mean, it's kind of beautiful, and I'm happy that the movie ended on a happy note. I'm glad that Aquaman's mom didn't get fucking fridged like usually, you know, so the end where you know these the end where she's there and he finds her again. It's like when you're sitting in the theater with mom and you know that that's not what's gonna end because she's sick, it was still kind of healing, and it's like, you know, I'm not really religious or anything, but it's like, at the end of all things, I kind of hope that that's where we find her someday. You know, I'm so happy I'm not the only person on the planet who fucking cries over Aquaman because like the other articles that I've read where people said that they got very emotional toops m h ah. I don't know if this movie meant to go so deep, but I interpreted it deeply. So that's the beautiful thing about art and stories and movies is that they can be interpreted any which way they can be. You know, the experience that you're any viewer bringing into the viewing experience will kind of inform I think it's really beautiful that James One Superhero Aquaman movie is something that's so like profoundly important and like impactful and effective to you. I'm so glad and I'm so glad you have that that memory with your mom too. That's really beautiful. Yeah, that's really great. Yeah me too. It was good good last movie and uh a happier memory was when we were watching it is at the beginning of the movie when he breaks into the submarine, because Mom she she would watch all of the m c U with us all the time, and her favorite was Thor, like she loved Thor. And then when Aquaman broke into the submarine and it's just beating everyone's ass, She's like, oh, no, I don't know if who I like more? Now do I like Thor more? Do I like Aquaman more? And then they dude hit him and he like did that little head tilt before he kicked his ass? And we're both like, yeah, Aquaman, sorry, Chris. My mom had a type long haired muscly men man. It was also a teddy bear right funny, another lovely memory. Man, We're going we're going deep on Aquaman. I'm so happy it's good. It's good movie. I like it even if it kills me. It's a good movie. And it made I wanted to just shout out how again. I mean, I feel like at this point, for the majority of people have a commonly accepted truth. But like, this movie made a shipload of money. This movie made over a billion dollars. Yeah, globally, I think, yeah, Like I didn't. I guess I didn't remember how wildly successful this movie was. Um, because I just don't pay attention to the dc you because I assume it's boring. But then I'm like, well, if it's James Want, it's not going to be boring. And if they had billion dollars, I know, the d C EU just hasn't been like none of them are really any good. I would say, like they only had like three really really good ones, and that would be this one, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, and Birds of Prey. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, those are the ones. Yeah, those are really because the Superman ones haven't really been that good, the Batman ones really haven't been good. Wonder Woman is awful, Oh my gosh, what a third really, And I mean not for nothing that the three good d c EU movies were directed by women and people of colored not a white guy to be seen Wonder Moons. Yeah, but yeah, I mean it's huge box office success, which, by the way, it's as of this recording, it's the twentie highest grossing film of all time, but hilariously only the fifth highest grossing film, of which means there were four other movies in the gross more, which was like an Offers movie. Black Panther incredible too, and I'm forgetting the other one, Durrassic World whatever Durassic World came out. Oh my god, Yeah, I guess that's that's so wild And all the while we couldn't get a better wig for Mera with a billion dollars. Then she looks so much like Aerial from Disney's Little Mermaid. That distracting. I did, Um, obviously, I mean maybe this is the part where we can like kind of say it, like as we talk about Mira. Yeah, so like there is definitely obviously a conversation to be had about domestic violence and abuse, and it's not something that should be ignored or overlooked. Of course, Um, several places have already discussed this, and you know as far as Amber heard, yes, yes, as far as Amber heard, and everything that's surrounding that, the controversy. Um, so that's why we really just wanted to focus more on the indigenous aspect of the film, because there is a lot to be said without really even mentioning her. Right, but now that we are going to mention her, you know, not to give not to like, um, it's not framing her in a positive light, so to say more like the character just kind of separating the two. We want to acknowledge that we are well aware that this is I mean an ongoing case and well, I mean, well, let's let's link to some resources to that effect in the notes of the show. So if you're if you're not aware of the situation, we're not going to get into it here because we would be here for hours and it would it would take away from what we do want to discuss about this movie. But we are aware of the ongoing case with Amber Heard and Johnny Depp. Domestic violence is always something that we want to never ever erase in the scope of our show. UM. But yeah, so we just wanted to acknowledge it that that is something that's ongoing at the time of this recording. Um, in terms of like the the case is still going. And I believe the Amber Heard is not coming back for the second Aquaman movie. I think she is. I think they are filming because yeah, well there was a lot of controversy around her casting in the second movie because they wanted to recast her, and people wanted to boycott Aquaman two because of that, and it's like, you know, I know this is an unpopular opinion. I mean, whether she's an Aquaman two or not, I'm still going to see it because he is the only indigenous, bi racial superhero like period, and like, why let her ruin that, you know, like, for lack of better terms, I mean, why take it away? You know, according to MDB, she does appear to be in this sequel that she about a year from now in December. So okay, well, yeah, we want to make sure that we acknowledge that. And you know it would have felt weird too not addressing address. Yeah, but we'd rather focus on other aspects of the film. We're focusing on the story here. We'll we'll leave a link in the description of this episode, right, but you know, just separating Mira from the actress um the character herself, I mean, is strangely pretty capable. I think, you know, I tend to agree, yeah, to an extent. I like that her motivation really isn't you know, Oh, I'm in love with Arthur. You know, it's like, no, my soon to be husband is a fucking lunatic and yeah, you know, we have to save the world and I have to like kind of teach this guy how to save the world. She's kind of the impetus that gets Aquaman even involved in the plot of the movie, which is pretty cool. I was all over the place with her, honestly, Like, there are certain scenes where I was like, because I totally agree with like she is the one that brings him into the action, but she's like, I think, unless I missed something, the first time she participates in the action of the movie, like she fights is an hour and a half into the movie, and the movie is two and a half hours long, to be fair, So she is involved in the act. Once she is involved in the action of the movie, she remains involved in the action and she's in the rest of the battles. But it it took a while for her to like become and there there was a and maybe I'm being like overly I don't know, maybe maybe I'm being overly sensitive to this thing. But the first time that she fought, there was this music cue that I'm like, I know this music cue. It's guess who's fighting now, Like, there is that music cue the first time she fights, where it's a long stare, like she looks at the bug guy, I don't know what, Like she looks at the scary guy and she's like, oh, you don't think a girl can fun? Like she doesn't say it, but the music tells you that. And then she fights and then you're like, all right, I guess we broke the seal there. And then she continues to fight, and like we know why she knows how to fight like all this stuff because she she had a mentor growing up as well. So it's not a Merry Sioux situation or anything like that, but I wish she'd I do. I sort of wanted her to get involved in the action a little sooner because there were I think like at least one, possibly two large fight set pieces where she's sidelined and I didn't think necessarily had to be right, that's fair, Yeah, But I was also I was also paying attention to things like does she ever have to be saved by a man? Is she doing any of the shaving? And I found that she she saves him twice. She saves him twice one when the first like that big title wave that arm throws at them. She saves both Aquaman and his dad by also like kind of giving him like Atlantean CPR, basically like using her powers to like extract the her from his lungs, and then she saves him from Patrick Wilson's fashy rage. Yes, and after like the ring of fire battle and yeah, I mean when we do see her fighting, she is a competent fighter. She can turn wine into swords. That's pretty cool. I know. I was like, wow, what a live laugh love moment. Uh well, I mean technically Jesus is her teacher, so whoa that. Guess what you can do with the wine? Love it? It's so deep. Um, yeah, I think I think. I just like that. Whenever that like girl fighting now music que plays, I'm just like, come on, come on, James Wan. You know women can fight. You've been doing that forever. But whatever. But and then towards the end, there's there is someone who saves Mara as they're approaching like the tridents resting place and they're being attacked by all these like sea creatures, and at first I thought, O, it was Aquaman, but then it turns out to be this unknown figure who ends up being Nicole Kidman's character. So I was like, Okay, she at no point has to be saved by a man, unless I'm like missing something or forgetting something. I don't think that happens. No, she doesn't, Okay, so that was I was like, all right, that's that's something for you know, that's kind of unusual. She's fighting with weapons, like the bars on the floor, but like she fights with weapons, it's not like random stuff that's around and has like powers. I feel like a lot of superhero movies don't really equip if there is like one woman in the story, she isn't like thinking of the first like Avengers movie where Black Widow all these other characters have like out of this world powers, and then Black Widows like, I can wrap my legs around a man's face and pussy slam him to the ground. But she's got actual powers also in the like when the movie turns into National Treasure for a while and they're like having to use like clue solving skills. She knows what to do with the first artifact. She knows where to go and how to find it. She knows how to access the recording, which leads them to the next clue. She memorizes that recording, which Aquaman like didn't even think to do or couldn't do, or you know, I relate to that too, because I legit would be like what did he just say? What do we have to do? I would have to watch it forty seven times and like write it down. Yeah, And I like that. It's like it's not just I feel like very often. I mean, I think you could even make this argument for National Treasure of like, even when there's a capable woman, she's all along for the ride. I mean, in the case of National Treasure, she's a hostage for a while and doesn't do any of the clue solving, even though she's like a historian. So but but in this case, it's not only is mera a very very important active participant, they also share a common goal like her, their fates are connected, and so the stakes are extreme high for her. It's not just like I have a crush on this guy, so I'm going to help him out, or Nicholas Cage is taking me hostage, so let me see what I can do, like you know, right, And then the second big clue, Aquaman figures that out because he's like, oh, Romulus was the king. We have to put the bottle and the statues hand, and then that's how we find the thing. But it just means that there's equity between like she saw the first thing, he solves the second one. They're like equals in this endeavor, which again is not It's like, should just be the standard thing that we can expect, but it's almost never that way. It's almost like, you know, the man doing all the work, the woman's there along for the ride to look pretty and to kiss at the end, which does happen in this movie too. I would argue that this love story feels very wedged in, doesn't really need to be there, doesn't really develop in any meaningful way except for that one scene where she's like, look at me eat flowers and he's like, ha ha, you're you're cute, and then and then they're kissing right there are Yeah, there are a few like hey, end brusha's and then meaningful glances and it's like is this necessary? I mean sure, I guess, And it didn't like super bother me because the characters do have chemistry, but it was like, I agree, it's like it is wedged It could have been a potentially like tutor, I guess, if she was more like a younger sister or something as opposed to a love interest. Yeah, because the optics of like, well, I mean, I guess who cares. But it's like she was going to marry her, she's being forced to marry his brother, and then she's like, oh, I guess I'm just actually going to marry her, which feels very like classically royal story that felt like this felt like such a modern story, and to have that like royal brother conflict felt more dated. I don't know, I don't they would have taken the kiss out of that big fight scene and then at the end where he's like what do I do now, she's like be their king and he like kind of kisses her on the forehead before he does that thing. I'm like, how cute would that have been? If that would have been like a big brother like I'm gonna be the king or whatever instead of oh, we just made out and you know what I mean, like something a little bit more wholesome. Yeah, I like I like the little sister thing, or like I'd like to just see more examples of like women being men and a woman being platonic friends in a movie that they don't have any fine, they can still both be like movie star hot, but also like it doesn't automatically mean they're going to be attracted to each other and gonna wanna kiss someone. Max and Furious too hot people who don't kiss, and they are just allies. And I love that. Just let hot people be friends. Just let people friends once, I would say. And I mean as far as like so Mara, I don't know, I would have liked to get to know her a little bit better. She doesn't have that much of an arc. She doesn't feel like that new wance or complicated of a character to me. I don't know. I feel like there could have been more, like I don't know, just emotional nuance to her, which I think could have been explored if she was like a member of their family, like the little sister or you know, a friend of the family who I don't know. It just I felt like there could have been more to develop her. But I was generally impressed with the way her character was handled and the amount that she was given to do and the agency that she had. I was. I was generally impressed with all of that. I agree. There is though, a scene which kind of like picked for me. When it's towards the end, Aquaman and Mara have shown up at this like cave place where the trident is supposed to be. Nicole Kidman is also like, by the way, I've been hiding for twenty years. And then we're also like, does that mean that Aquaman is only like twenty five because I think she he was like a small boy when she So I'm like, okay, I guess Aquaman's twenty five or something. Think about was like forty something. Yeah, she's and she's supposed to be Patrick Wilson's mother, Like Patrick Wilson is like fifty. You're like, well, I guess it's all relative. We don't know how people in Atlantis age by aging my aging underwater differently. This is just a goofy Atlantis observation. But there would be some of the scenes in Atlantis where you would just you would just be seeing the actors from like the chest up, and then they would suddenly cut to a wide shot and you're like, oh, they're floating there. It's just like that guy's hair is just like Doren has like red hair, and he's just like sort of floating around and his hair is all going everywhere. Seed where they take Willhem Dafoe's nice Jaffar character to the dungeon or whatever. They cut to a wide shot and like to those like kicking, and I was like, that's so funny. I forget that he's swimming in this scene while he's going, um, he's being taken to the dungeon. Yeah, it looks very stall anyway. So the three of them have all kind of reunited. It's an aquaman and his mother and then Mara, and there's you were like Aquamans like, all right, I gotta go find the trident. And he goes and like does the very important thing of the movie, and then he comes back to where Mara in Atlanta or Atlanta are just like, well, we had to wait for the man to do the important thing, and then we were just the two women who were sitting here waiting. Well, they don't want to. I think that's fair enough. You do not want women with the tentacle monster in this movie because fandom is weird enough without god fair fair enough. That picked for me as well. And I feel like that could have been remedied by just like writing a short scene for them. Yeah, because I forget who was saying it earlier, but like she would have known Queen Atlanta since she was very young. They would have plenty to talk about. She was going to be forced to marry her bed son, she's falling in love with her good son. They just have known each other for a long time. Maybe they'll reminisce about something. What is Nicole Kidman been up to? Like, there's so many questions and there could have been a scene with them. Wait would they have known? Wouldn't have Nicole Kidman's character been banished probably before Mary was even born? I don't know, because I think Mari says something. I think Mari says something like this goes against everything your mother taught us or something. Right, It's that was Yeah, it sounds like they which again you have to suspend your disbelief and believe that Patrick Wilson and Amber her at the same age, which is very obviously not true. But yeah, I like I think that they would have known each other. But even if not, there's plenty to talk about. Yeah, or if like if we want to throw in another like fight sequence in there where if like some of the sea creatures had like infiltrated this place and then we have to see these like two women, you know, kick some ass like an action movie. After all, Like it just felt so weird to me that, like he comes back and it's like these two women were just like, okay, we wait. We were here waiting for you the man to do with the important thing, and we were just sitting here waiting and I was like, that could have been handled way better. Yeah. Yeah, But bottom line, especially compared to superhero movies and the way women are treated in them for years prior to this, uh, Mara's involvement in story is pretty decent. Yeah, motivated, there's action, like, it's good. I wouldn't call it trinity syndrome either, you know. I there's plenty for her to do. It's not like she just showed up and it's like, now what do I do? And I'm here? Really how cool I am? What do I do? Nothing? Yeah, it's not like Morpheus sent me. It's like I sent myself because I see that this man that I've been forced into a marriage is trying to kill the world, so I have to um stop him. Yeah, and then in the same in the same way. I mean, and I think we've kind of covered this at this point, but um, Queen Atlanta has a full arc. You know, It's it does seem like you're kind of led to believe for the majority of the movie that she is Fridged. But then not only is she not Fridge, but she gets to go on this like beautiful journey that makes me cry when I think about it. Um, So, you know, there are certainly more characters of consequence in this story that are men. For sure. There's brother conflict, there's pirate merman conflict. There's fathers and sons. There's a lot of you know, male relationship. And I don't even necessarily mean that in a bad way because there's a wide variety of them. And then there are like two women in the story basically, and they are both white ladies, which but the women who are there, I think that the script does right by them and they have fully realized stories and their motivated, dead and involved and yeah, h I wanted to talk a little bit more about the relationship between Aquaman and his dad because I think it's beautiful, and we do joke a lot on the show about how like, ultimately all stories are about fathers and sons. Um, this one doesn't bother me. This one's beautiful, This one doesn't bother me. It's it's a very sweet and supportive relationship. Between the two of them. I feel like a trope you see A lot is like the younger man, the son, trying to prove himself to his dad and like kind of being toxic along the way, or like the dad character needs to redeem himself because he's been a shitty, absent dad for his whole life. But there's like none of that in this story. It's just like they've been together. They are supportive of each other. There's no like masculinity contest that either of them are trying to win. They're just like having a nice time together and they love each other. And I really appreciate she ate that representation of like a father son relationship in a movie, because we don't usually get anything like that. Yeah, there is a there's a line of dialogue the Aquamenses towards the end that I found to be confused. I don't I don't know if this was a joke or what, but it's when Mara is saying she said something like we need to like encourage diplomacy, or we need to like try to talk this out or like get it so that the different like kingdoms of Atlantis are like get It's something along those lines. I didn't write down specifically what it was, but Aquaman's response to that was, I learned from a young age not to show weakness. I solved my problems with anger and my fists. I'm a blunt instrument and I'm damn good at it. And I'm like, is that actually even true? Like I feel like your father wouldn't have like taught you that. Yeah, I'm just I'm a tough man. Think guys will like guys like you as I'd be like, look, I'm a little fucked up and you're like, because why like lass party and with those guys in that scene earlier, but it was so it was so sweet. That was like the est. Yeah, you don't see Batman doing that ship. Aquaman is so much better. He's a friendly neighborhood Aquaman. He's a wholesome boy boy. Yeah. No, that that relationship with that was really well done. And it also didn't like it was so I don't know, Yeah, it didn't like overtake the story in a way that I feel like those relationships sometimes do. And like, like you were saying at the beginning of the episode, Alley, there's all of these like pretty nuanced themes in this movie that just it's just seamless. You don't feel like the movie is like really pushing any particular theme on you. It's just like it's just happening and it's and it's good. Yeah. That's really surprising because of like Lesser Hands, you know, like this could have been so messy and a movie that's already kind of messy. I'm happy that part wasn't. You know, it's right. I did appreciately like pro environmental conservation message of the movie, although it was kind of weird that it was the motivation for the villain and that it wasn't also the motivation for like the good guys. That's a little Ghostbusters for me. Yeah, we're like the E p A Is the Devil. Yeah. I feel like they didn't want to make the villain to sympathetic, you know, where it's like kill Monger, you know, like made so many good points, and it's like, well, we can't have y'all, you know, rooting for the bad guys, so let's make him a misogynist, you know what I mean, like black Panther. Otherwise, I mean people would be like, oh, yeah, you know what I mean, right, Like, yeah, see your point. Maybe I should follow you actually, So then Orm is like, you know, well you're not wrong, but you're also a fascistict yeah, like or recognizes the environmental issue in a way that Aquaman doesn't as much. But also his proposed solution is violence and like racial violence and uh like would not resolve the problem, but he acknowledges it. So it's weird. And then at the end that line that Nicole Kidman when she comes to like, I whatever, it's a comic book story. So when she goes over and hugs her son and she's like, don't do a fascism and he's like, oh man, I feel so silly, and like he's like, I'm sorry, mommy, I really I wasn't gonna I definitely wasn't going to do a fascism. And then I'll go to jail. Now think about what you did in the dungeon and like in the swimming dungeon or whatever, and so it's like all very whatever end of movie stuff. But then Nicole Kidman says something like that makes sense thematically with aquaman S narrative, where she's like the land and the you know, we're all she's kind of like, this is a monoculture maybe, and it's like, Okay, that is I see, I see why she's saying that, But that really pushes the environmental stuff aside. And because we've been seeing I mean, that's why I'm intrigued by the Randall Park character UM and how he is going to team up with be held hostage by unclear uh with Black Manta. But like it seems like the movie setting, like the franchise, is being set up to address that in a more meaningful way in the next movie. It seems like it. I hope that there will be UH in the sequel. I hope that there will be more women of color in it, especially like Polynesian women are more Polynesian characters in general, because you know, ycause it's the Polynesian superhero. And also I guess the the environmental issues. I wonder if it was also now that I think about it, I wonder if it was kind of swept under the rug a little bit because Jason Momoa was protesting Mauna Kea around the time and then was also standing in solidarity with Standing Rock Yes, and they were probably like, well, we don't want it to get to preachy because we're still Hollywood and you know, I don't want to make too many waves. We don't want to be pro environment. That would be absurd, that would be a bad look for us. So it's like, what do you mean God, I mean yeah, And then you think about whether you can't you can't. You just can't think about it. Like the carbon footprint of a movie like this is gigantic and there aren't enough. Um. I mean, that's a conversation that we should have on this show someday, but I just haven't done enough research on it. But just like the massive carbon footprint that movies havepen how there's basically no regulations on how much energy you can just bust into the air making you know, Willem Dafoe swim or whatever it is, Like right, yeah, I would like to learn more about that too. I feel like we like, very very minimally scratched the surface when we talked about Babe on the Patreon and I get a little deep dive onto like how certain practical effects have like killed nearby animals on movie sets. There have been a few examples of that, but like, yeah, it's not just like wildlife, it's just, yeah, the kind of ecological impact that a lot of production movie productions have is I'm sure not great. The next big big blockbuster we cover, maybe I'll do a section of Avatar to probably because you know that. God, Yeah, when we do the Avatar episode, that would be that would because it's like, oh, this that movie does claim to be a lot of things, but you're like, bull, but what was the carbon footprint of that? Mr Cameron? Can can we get some numbers there? Among other things? Yeah? H does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie that they like to discuss. I want to say yes, but I'm blanking out. I think that's that's everything that I had. There's so there was so much, there's so much to love about this movie. Yeah, I do have a newfound appreciation for it. I mean, for me, like when I watch a movie, I'm mostly analyzing until I analyze it through like the Bechtel cast lens. I'm just looking at it from like I'm mostly like story point of view, and like how well are the characters developed, how compelling are the themes, how structurally sound is the story? How like effective is the world building? And I feel like some of those things in this movie is like what made it feel very like clunky, Like most of the world building is done through like very clunky dialogue, and I'm just like, come on, of exposition. Yeah there's But visually, for me, some of the choices were strange, and again I was experiencing a lot of sensory overload. But um, yeah, I do have a I have way more appreciation for this movie than I did before we started talking about it on this show. So I every time I see I was selling Caitlin this off Mike before we started recording. But I was like everything that I found confusing about this movie, I suddenly was like, I actually like it because it's all James Wan stuff, Like James Wan created Jigsaw. Who if can you think of a more expositional character than Jigsaw. He the movies are not particularly well written, and they look absolutely weird every single time, but it just it just works. His movies are just vibrating. That's the James Wan way. Yeah, Jigsaw is the ultimate I think. I guess listeners, let me know if there's a character that um is more inherently expositional than Jigsaw. We should do a saw a month on the Patriot we got. Oh goodness, does this movie pass the back door test. I forgot to pay attention. It does. I I saw it passing one time. It is a two and a half hour movie. Maybe I missed something, But there was one interaction that Jason Momoa is present for and it's shot from the back, so it could have even been a d R. But maybe maybe someone flagged that in James Wanda is like, oh shit, um. But Nicole Kidman and uh Mea have an exchange where Mara says something like and you've been here for twenty years and she's like, yes, I've been here for twenty years, and then they're like, anyways, aqua man. But it does. Technically it does pass. Okay, well, good for the movie. They also had two and a half other hours to to maybe do that, And but that is like, that's I think an extension of a problem we've been talking about for five years now that the first time I remember talking about it was in our Star Wars episode four episode where it's like, how could this movie pass the Bechdel test? There's only one woman she's got to want to talk to, and it's like there's only two women and they only appear in one scene together. Where else is this going to pass. That's like a structural flaw. I mean, yeah, that does speak to how there are a lot of characters in this movie and most of them are met. We get another like there's a scene where Orm kills like the mermaid kingman and then his daughter who's like teen daughters now, like the heir to the throne. So then she shows up in a later battle and she's like doing some stuff here and there barely I mean blank, and you'll miss her. But other than that that, yeah, there really aren't any women. But like, for example, Willem Dafoe's character easily could have been a woman like one of the villains, like other of the villains could have been a woman. There are and I'm sure that that connects to like the common Book says, well, but it's like this movie already, this franchise already made changes independently of the comic book that improved the source material. So why not why not keep going with it? What if Black Manta's dad would have been Black Manta's mom mother, right, because then that really would have been shitty if he would have left his mom to die, you know after what he did, Like no, fuck you, I mean Black Manta could have also been a woman, Like what's what's to stop that from happening. But I do like the idea of it being his mother instead of his father, because then that's like Aquaman has like mommy problems, and that would like heighten the conflict between the two of them if they have this like shared like loss of mother and like, ah, yeah, it was right there, it was right. That's why you don't let an l a p d. Officer write your movie. They're gonna yeah, um, as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples. Analyzing it through an intersexual feminist lens um, I would say between Mara and Atlanta, even though they are the only two women in the story and they don't really interact hardly ever, but as individual characters, like there's interesting things happening there, there's more equity between Like Mara, who is positioned to be the love interest, but she's also more than that. In this movie, she's all that, she's doing other stuff, she's fighting, she's solving clues, she has the agency to like seek out Aquaman to begin with, so you know, she's far more important to the narrative than a lot of other like superhero movie female counterparts of hers have been in the past, So that's cool. The fact that this movie is representation of an indigenous superhero, a biracial superhero. Uh the kids adults alike have seen themselves represented in is like really important, really powerful, very meaningful. The relationship between Aquaman and his dad and how there's like, again, so many father son relationships are in movies are so steeped in like some weird form of toxic masculinity, and the fact that that's absent from this relationship I think is a very positive thing to see on screen. And so yeah, there's a lot of things going for the movie that again, when looking at it through the through the bectolcast lens, I appreciate it way more. So with that in mind, I'll give it like three and a half nipples, because there's still some stuff that, you know, kind of rubbed me the wrong way. The fact that the only black characters are villains, Like, why weren't there black Atlanteans who are just existing in that world? Why aren't there other just like any yeah, any people of color elsewhere in the story, because it's still a predominantly white cast. And and then there are the only black characters we meet, Like there immediately sidelines until the credits of the movie, right, yeah, yeah, and then you've got like Randall Park, who seems like a very fun character. I was like, so, where's he? Give me more him? I'm pretty sure he has a very large role in the second movie. I did a little digging, and I love Randall Park. Yeah, he's great. So I think there could have been more, just diversity overall, but yeah, even so, I was three three and a half nipples, and I will give one to Jason Momoa. I'll give one to Nicole Kidman's wig. I'll give one to Always got to give one to her wig and never to her and never to her. I'll give one to Randall Park. And I'll give my half nipple to the how do you say this word? Corinth Corinthian corinthe No, not Corinthian whatever, the giant crab monster. H So that gets my that's my half nipple. I'll meet you at three and a half. That sounds right to me. Um, yeah, I I agree with what you're saying. I feel like this movie is doing so much for a superhero movie. I absolutely loved and really appreciated you sharing your connection to it. Ali like it is just like I'm so glad this movie exists, and I'm so glad that the Yeah, that just that's how this world is, and that it I don't know, like it subverted a lot of my expectations of just what I expect from superhero movies in general, but also just you know, including a biracial character in a meaningful way, in a very authentic and thoughtful way that was also true to like who the actor himself is, and just all of this wonderful thematic stuff and then and then I mean in terms of how I mean, and I agree that the two female characters that we have are wonderful and they have these fully realized stories. They're very motivated, they're they're also very white. And I really hope that you know, in like like we've discussed already, that there is diversity across gender in this franchise as it continues to develop, which I want to believe is going to happen. Um also know, like body diversity to like there's a shot where like the two women are standing next to each other and it's like, oh, you have the same exact body type, Well you forgot Nicole Kidman is taller than husband. That if mirror was cast by like a big, hulking, gorgeous woman like yeah, hell yeah, or that would have been Acquaman's mom. So like the cole Conman's beautiful a lot. If it was right like rich people were gigantic, which is why he's fucking gigantic, that would make sense to me. Sorry, I never have to do Jamie, No, no, I'll go three and a half. I am now officially amped to see Aquaman two. Who knew James wants directing the new one as well? I appreciate James Wan. Okay, three and a half nipples. Gotta give one to James Want. I'm as big as fan. Also, I'll give one to the Cthulhu as well. Give one to Jason Momoa. He is fantastic. I really love him, and I'll give my last half two. Randall Park nice Illi, what about you? Yeah, I think three and a half is fair because you know, obviously the movie meant a lot to me for a bunch of different emotional reasons. But uh, but yeah, it does have a lot of clunkiness in it. The exposition, like I said, is all over the place. There's a lot of information, a lot of backstory. Um, but all of it is cool, So I'm a little bit more forgiving, But it just could have been done better. Birds of Prey kind of does that too. Actually, it's just a little slapping, a lot packed into yeah, a lot of characters. I feel like it's like when you have that many characters, you're like, well, someone's going to get lost in the mix. Like and yeah, I think it was supposed to be two movies and they just kind of like combine them and it feels that way. Yeah, But like I said, like a lot of the stuff, the stuff that's clumsy is clumsy, but not terrible. I've definitely seen so much worse in the d C EU on top of that, Like, but the stuff that they did well, they did very very well, like surprisingly well. So yeah, i'll give it three and a half. Also, I'll give one of these nips to Jason Momoa. I'd like to give him too, but he can just have one. I'll give another one to his dad because Mandalorian. I'm going to give the third one to Black Manta just because, yeah, Yama is so hot and I know that's not what it's important right now, but I just had to say that he's hot but bad. He was also like I know that there's a problematic element obviously with the black guy be and the villain, but man, at least he was a good villain, which wouldn't have been an issue again if there were other black characters, right, but because he's he and his dad were the only ones in his dad dies, It's like, okay, well that's pretty glaring anyway, right of course. But then uh, yeah, my half, I guess we'll go to Nicole kidman, just just a cool kidsman. Just get that I have to give the full ones to the people of color and the indigenous folks, and you can just have a half just half. Well, Alie, thank you so much for coming back and joining us in this wonderful discussion and for sharing your your connection with this movie. It's like really moving and I was like tearing up and yeah, me too, thank you for putting up with me during that. Oh my god, oh my god, any please come back anytime, like truly, I will come back for Avatar properly. I called this. Nobody else gets to do it but me. You've got Avatar. Does give me a call and be like all right, we're doing this, and I will be like, yes, we are my time. Wait when does the next When does Avatar to come out? Twenty years from now? Probably? Yeah, like not for another year and a half. We can't wait. It can't it can't wait. It can't wait. An it's never coming out? Oh God. But yeah, I would love to come back and thank for inviting me again. I love talking about movies, yes, and we love having you. Where can people you know check out your stuff follow you online? Tell us about the A LA tests. We've talked about it before, but tell our listeners who might not be familiar, what the LA test is. Okay, So the A LA tests started off on Tumbler. It's the dash A LA dash test dot tumbler dot com. And it was when I was in Finland and came up with a Bechdel Test inspired litmus test I suppose for a Native and Indigenous women, where I noticed that when they appear movies, they're usually not a main character or a white guy's girlfriend, or they get murdered or they get sexually assaulted and every single thing I've seen, so I'm like, okay, let's look for characters who are the main character so an Indigenous woman who is a main character, who is not the love interest to a white guy and doesn't get sexually assaulted or killed at any point in the story. And it took off, Like I don't know, people just really responded really well to this, which I was kind of surprised by. But I guess when you have like hard evidence, you know, where it's all like, no, I don't think I'm making this up by seeing this pattern, and it's a very disturbing pattern that keeps happening, and people are like, yeah, actually that is kind of sucked up. You know, why aren't more characters passing the ALA test? Yeah, And it was kind of like I mean, it was I believe, like the first of its kind as far as like an like a test examining representation of Indigenous women in media, and like when you have something like that that's like also like easily quantifiable or like qualifiable, Like, yeah, I I'm not surprised that it took off, because it's like it's a great way to like open up that conversation about representation of Indigenous characters and women in media. And that's all I really wanted it to do. You know. It was just like start the conversation and then hopefully it leads to better movies and better characters, which I hope it has. Like people have been talking about it a lot, I think, I mean, it seems like it has. I like, I don't know it already has like such a cool, impactful legacy. The Gina Davis Institute called it out, So congratulations, that was amazing. She got me into the goddamn league. You're part of the Justice League now, yeah, but yeah, and then I did another test. I think I was talking about this when we were talking about movie talks with Caitlin. Yes, yes, yes, where it was does the Indian live? Which is also like does the Native American characters show up in the movie? And does he die? Okay, if he does, he doesn't pass, you know, hope. So uh, that one hasn't quite as taken off. But that's mostly because I am not organized and I don't know how to run a website. So I'm figuring it out it don't happen. But other than that, you can find me on Twitter, Alie Naughty on Twitter, Alie Naughty on Tumbler, Elie Naughty on TikTok. If you really want to see me embarrass myself and on Instagram. Yeah, I love your one minute movie reviews. They're really great. I haven't done one in a long time. I need to do it again. Yeah, bring it back, bring it back, And then you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at spectel Cast. We've got our Matreon which is at patreon dot com slash spectel cast, and that's five dollars a month and you get to bonus episodes every single month, plus access to the entire back catalog, which is over one hundred bonus episodes. This month we did two of our most popular romcom request that we've just never done for some reason. So if you want to hear us absolutely hand. You've got males ads back to it. That's where you can go to do that how to Lose a Guy in ten Days as well. Um. Yeah, the Matrean community is so lovely and so fun and is loose. You know, we're hanging loose on the Matreon, so head over there. It's holiday time. If you want to get some merch, you can go to t public dot com slash the bettel Cast and I think that's everything. Well, we'll see you in December, alright, bye, bye bye,