Episode 1: Being Wrong Act Three - Early Off Premises Socialization

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Act Three
Early Off Premises Socialization.

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Number three.

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Number three.

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And this one

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is why we needed to do this today.

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Because in our Newborn to New Home course,

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you're going to start seeing this.

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And this is different

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than what we did in Puppy Culture.

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And that is early off premises.

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socialization.

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You know, I think you have to

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look at this kind of two ways that

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when we were making Puppy

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Culture, what I would describe

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Puppy
Culture is the minimum that any breeder

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should do with a litter to raise
behaviorally sound dogs,

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meaning to say, well,
do what's in this program

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and you won't be handing over a project
to your puppy owner.

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So you're not going to hand over a puppy
that's totally house trained

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or can walk a mile on a leash,
but you'll you'll be handing over a puppy

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that isn't going to freak out the second
the puppy owner puts a collar on it

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and isn't just a tremendously

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dirty puppy
that they can't house train at all.

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That isn't totally neophobic
and afraid of things.

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You know, of its own shadow,
I mean, barring any genetic problems.

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Right.

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So what we're asking you to do
is sort of hand over a blank slate

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to the puppy owner that the puppy owner
and then can take and run

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with and write on that slate
and go to class and do all that work.

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We also

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are telling you to do

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what has been proven
scientifically to be safe.

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So, you know,
all the biosafety precautions

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that we mention, you know, there's
always a risk benefit analysis, okay.

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Especially with
we do early, in-house socialization

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and there's always a risk benefit analysis
and we talk about that.

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But, you know,

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putting that aside,
you know that you've done your risk

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benefit analysis of your local risk
and you've decided

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it's worth it
to do early in home socialization.

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And then once the puppies are vaccinated,
we Dr.

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Herron and Dr.

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Leal talk about the UC Davis study
that if the puppies have had one vaccine

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by eight weeks at eight weeks old or later
and you wait a week,

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you're safe, you know that they
they did the study.

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Thousands of puppies.

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Not one of them got parvo.

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They all went to to puppy class.

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So what we put

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in there is you're safe
with what we put in there.

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And yeah,
I mean, it is going to do a decent job

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of socializing the puppies,
even if you wait, you know,

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if you don't take them off premises
and you wait

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until they have that vaccine on board
after eight weeks.

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So talking about nine weeks, between nine
and 12 weeks, if you socialize them.

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Okay.

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So now we're getting to the part where

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I've modified my position on this,

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but I should hasten to add
I've modified my personal position on this

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because I feel I have adjusted my risk
benefit

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analysis on this.

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And what happened was I used

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a dog from the United Kingdom,

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so I brought some new genetics
into my lines.

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And it was a true out cross.

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And this was, what, three generations ago?

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Yes. And the reason I did it
is that all my dogs have always

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been super confident,
our line super confident dogs

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and really great with people always
because that's in our standard.

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And we, you know, we just don't have
any tolerance for a dog that's not

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flat out friendly to people.

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But we also had some sharpness, right,
with other dogs like, you know,

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a lot of same sex aggression.

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So we wanted to kind of tone
that down a bit.

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And this dog, you know,
he was gorgeous and very,

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very sweet, good with other dogs,
very low, same sex aggression.

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So we brought him
in, got a beautiful, beautiful litter.

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Took the litter to be evaluated

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with Mary Rimmer, who's evaluated

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all of my for five, six,
seven generations.

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I don't even know how many generations
it is now.

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She's evaluated, done
puppy evaluations on all my litters.

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And they were terrified.

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I mean, there was a air
conditioning duct in the ceiling.

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They were terrified by the sound.

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They did eventually approach the people,
but they crawled.

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I mean, I'd never seen anything like it,
you know?

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And, you know, they they came out fine.

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I mean, they grew up okay.

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But I'd say we
we really made a pretty intense

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effort to socialize them at that point.

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And then,
you know, the next two generations,

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you know, we kind of had similar softness,
not as dramatic as that, but,

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you know, just not what I was used
to, not what we were used to at all.

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And the last litter

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that we brought to Mary, she said, Well,
I mean, do you get them out,

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you know, before they come here
and I said, No, it's the first time.

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I mean, they're seven weeks
old. It's their first trip.

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I mean, we used to take them for bear
testing, but they don't go do that anymore

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because we have someone coming
in, bear testing, being hearing testing,

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and she's like, well, you know,
that bear testing, probably that trip

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probably really did a lot for them
at six weeks.

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And you really need
to get these puppies out

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and that these particular puppies

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genetically are prone
to sound sensitivity and softness.

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You need to get them out.

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So these puppies that litter was just

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seven weeks
old and I started taking them around.

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I bought myself a baby stroller,
you know, the kind of zip up

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puppy stroller put them in that
so that they couldn't, you know,

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no other dogs could get to them or sniff
them and people couldn't touch them.

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And I just start wheeling them around.

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I took them to Home Depot,
I took them to Tractor Supply.

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I mean, I just took them any place
I could take them.

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And you know what?

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My God, those puppies were confident.

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Yeah, I mean, they just

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fantastic, really.

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I mean, night and day
with waiting to nine weeks, night and day,

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getting them out at six, seven weeks.

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So, you know,

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I am going to be taking these puppies
out this week to places like the bank.

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I'm going to take them out in their
little puppy stroller and get them out.

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And they're six weeks old.

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And I guess I'm going to do it.

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You know, I'm going to.

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But again,
I live in northwestern New Jersey.

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It's a, you know, all the dogs around
here, there are no stray dogs.

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Everyone takes good care of their dogs.

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I'm not going to take them to a place
like PetCo

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where there's going to be a lot of other
dogs.

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I'm not going to take them,
you know, there.

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But I'm definitely
I'll take them to the bank.

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I mean, you know,
I'll take them to any place

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that will let me push them around
in their little cart.

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I'll take them to a Home Depot.

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Why the bank?

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You never go to the bank.

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No, I don't.

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But, you know,
I never really have this situation.

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I normally am socializing them later.

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And the other thing I'm going to do is

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I'm probably going
to have some of my friends that

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where I feel that their house
has similar biosafety to mine.

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And, you know, maybe we'll have Alida
come over with her Leonbergers

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sooner rather than later because again,

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you know,
some of my litters have had more trouble

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getting over the big dogs and things
and that certainly dog

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you know,
neophobia is a big thing in bull terriers.

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They're not known to love other dogs.

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And this last litter that,

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you know, you can't discount genetics,

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but the last litter that we had before
this, my goodness, they're fantastic.

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They go to playgroups.

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They they run with other dogs.

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I mean, I just they're fantastic.

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So I do think, you know, I would,

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look, I'm not going to say

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I'm changing my mind
because I always would think

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that socializing earlier
could have a benefit.

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But I'm changing my risk
benefit analysis for me here.

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Now, with this line of puppies,
with my genetics that I have,

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I am going to start
socializing them earlier.

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I can't officially recommend
that people do, you know.

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And even on the Puppy Culture Discussion
Group, a lot of times people will put up,

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you know, videos or pictures of
they bring their puppies to like libraries

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and they have kids or kids schools and
they have the kids play with the puppies.

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And, you know, I'm
not going to change my official stance on

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we're not going to put that up
as part of Puppy Culture

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because, you know, a lot of people
get on that discussion group

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and they don't even know
that there's a film and a program.

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They just think the discussion
group is Puppy Culture.

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So, you
know, if you haven't watched the film

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and you don't know about biosafety
and you haven't listened to the vets

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talk about appropriate risk
benefit analysis,

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I mean, you can't just take your puppies
and just say, Oh, I'm

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going to take them to a library
and just let everyone touch them. So

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my official stance is still look, I mean,
I cannot officially recommend this,

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but I'm going to say
I definitely am changing my mind

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about taking my own puppies off
premises early.

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So can you just kind of elaborate,
though, what

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what is wrong about that whole process?

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That seems to be pretty straightforward.

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I mean, what would, you know, what
how would you define wrong in any of that?

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Wrong about what?

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Well, the fact that you didn't
take the puppies out,

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but you notice that they're soft.

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So it was recommended that you do
take them out.

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Yeah, well,

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because I didn't I thought that,
you know, listen, nine weeks is enough.

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Like 9 to 12 weeks is plenty of time,
you know, is plenty of time

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to get them out in the world.
You can wait till they're past their,.

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I always want to wait till they're
past their initial or their second fear

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imprint period and you can get them out
and that's enough time.

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You can get it done.

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And I'm saying, yeah, I mean, you can.

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But I think that there is a tremendous
benefit and probably,

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you know, better to get them out earlier.

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So the wrong part of it is
someone could come and say,

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well, hey, you know, used to say no
sooner than nine weeks, right?

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Well, I used to say, you don't need to.

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That's what I would say
is it's really unnecessary and not safe.

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And now what I would say is, you know,

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I think there is more benefit to it
than I had thought there was.

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And I can't say that it's safe.

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I cannot say that it's safe.

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But because I don't have a study. Right.

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We have a study.
We have the UC Davis study.

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So we know it's safe to take them out at
nine weeks after they've had one vaccine.

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Correct.

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But or I should say, we know

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statistically it's safe.

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You know, statistics show
that it's relatively safe.

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There's always going to be some puppy
who's a non responder to a vaccine

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that gets parvo.
I mean, it can happen, but

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we don't have any science to say

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it's safe or what the safe parameters
are for taking out a six week old puppy.

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You know,
I would wait till six weeks for my puppies

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because I want to be well past
the initial fear imprint period.

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But, you know,
I'll be taking these puppies around.

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I will be taking them around.

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I'm going to put them in a little,

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I bought a stroller a puppy stroller.

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So they'll be in that,
but I'll be taking them around.

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It's a cute stroller, I have to admit.

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It's a very cute stroller.

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Mm hmm.

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Well, I think that I you know,
I think that's a pretty good explanation.

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I think of what you're
trying to tell people about.

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I guess embracing wrong,
I guess, is what you're trying to

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come across to people.

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Right, well,
because I've you know, I had experience.

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I felt one way based on the information

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I had at the time,
and I got more information.

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Listen, another thing
and I'll just throw it out here

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is the whole COVID
experience has taught us a lot.

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Now, I won't say this
doesn't come under the umbrella

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of being wrong, but similarly,
when it comes to socialization,

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you know, it was a frequent thing
that people would write into Puppy

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Culture, not frequent, but from time
to time, people right into Puppy Culture.

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And so, you know, I did all Puppy Culture.

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I kept them until ten weeks
and then I place them the puppy owner

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and now the puppy six months.

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And he's afraid of something,
you know, the puppy hides behind

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their legs or whatever. And,

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you know, you're like, well,
what did the puppy owner do with them?

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I don't know.

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You know, we really don't know how much

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socialization or getting the puppy out

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after the close
of the critical socialization period.

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We really don't know how much difference
that made in until COVID,

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and now we know.

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We know that,

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we know that doing socialization

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during the critical socialization
period up until 12 weeks is sort of like a

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card to it's

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like a pass card
to go to the next level, right?

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You don't get stuck in behavioral mod boot
camp.

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You know, you're again, you're
handing the puppy owner a blank slate.

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It's like, okay, we've done
what we have to do up to this point.

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now, you can just carry on,

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keep socializing,
keep going, keep having new experiences,

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keep training, and it will be smooth
it will be clear sailing for you.

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You'll be able to go straight through,
but you have to keep it up.

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But with COVID,
we had the experience of alright,

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we went straight to 12 weeks
and then boom, cut it off.

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Now, you know,
we have Alana literally 12 weeks,

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that's when her lockdown, that's
when lockdown came.

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So that puppy was socialized
normally right up to 12 weeks.

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And then like an iron curtain,
it fell down

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and she was locked up
until she was nine months old.

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And when she was nine months old,

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before she could get to a handling class
and she just about came unhinged.

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Yeah.

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And, you know, frankly,
the effects of that are there.

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And, you know, I mean, it's a
she's a behavioral project.

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I mean, she's an adorable dog.

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I mean, she's sweet, but we can't even
show her at an all breed show

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because she's only ever seen Bull
Terriers.

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And, you know, she just
she comes unhinged. So

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and there's a lot of stories like that.

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So I think, you know, what we've learned
is it's not that

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what we do in the first 12 weeks
doesn't matter.

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You have to do that.

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You do have to do all that stuff
in the first 12 weeks.

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But what we've learned is
you also do have to continue

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you have to continue

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with it.

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So how do you wrap all this up?

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What do you what do you tell everybody?

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What is the

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what is the thing to tell everybody?

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What's the short
nugget that we walk away from all this,

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that being wrong is okay.

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Well, I just think next time

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you got a piece of information

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and you think it's wrong
that it conflicts with

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what you think is right,
you just take a minute.

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Take a beat, check yourself and say,

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is this maybe an opportunity?

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Could I possibly grow with

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this information?