#35 Rachel and Jon

Pushkin. Hi, John, I am robot Goldstein. I will be 0:00:28.330 --> 0:00:33.729 your robot medical assistant. Pass me the scalpel to chat. 0:00:34.250 --> 0:00:37.530 Would you would you really? Would you love to continue 0:00:37.530 --> 0:00:38.129 to chat with me? 0:00:39.690 --> 0:00:39.849 No? 0:00:41.409 --> 0:00:43.530 How many people are you able to be that honest with. 0:00:44.970 --> 0:00:45.210 Just you? 0:00:46.930 --> 0:00:46.970 So? 0:00:47.050 --> 0:00:51.849 Well, that's that's kind of special, right, I know that 0:00:52.090 --> 0:00:54.130 is a good point. Do you see it's a very 0:00:54.170 --> 0:01:06.650 special bond? Yea from Gimblet Media. I'm Jonathan Goldstein and 0:01:06.730 --> 0:01:19.930 this is Heavyweight Today episode Rachel and John. Right after 0:01:19.970 --> 0:01:20.369 the break. 0:01:25.650 --> 0:01:28.050 You ready to start? I'm ready to start. 0:01:28.130 --> 0:01:28.850 You're sitting down? 0:01:29.170 --> 0:01:33.450 Yeah, okay, your eyes closed. Anything you see where there's 0:01:33.490 --> 0:01:35.410 some feelings, that's what we're looking for. 0:01:35.730 --> 0:01:36.170 Okay. 0:01:36.650 --> 0:01:39.570 This is a therapist named Alvin in session with a 0:01:39.610 --> 0:01:41.890 patient named Ted. What are you feeling? 0:01:42.090 --> 0:01:45.729 Can you describe it? Like it's happening right now, right now. 0:01:46.090 --> 0:01:48.770 The session was recorded as a part of an educational 0:01:48.810 --> 0:01:53.050 psychotherapy video series. In the session, Alvin is helping Ted 0:01:53.170 --> 0:01:56.210 relive a memory. The time is domineering father in law 0:01:56.450 --> 0:01:57.690 was rude to his wife. 0:01:58.090 --> 0:01:59.770 Yeah, and he's all dressed up. 0:01:59.690 --> 0:02:02.450 Hi, Jenny, Yeah, oh there is and. 0:02:02.490 --> 0:02:03.730 He's Yeah, there's a formal thing. 0:02:03.770 --> 0:02:05.450 It's like, you know, good to see we have to 0:02:05.530 --> 0:02:06.970 It's like the meanute. We talk to each other, our 0:02:07.010 --> 0:02:10.730 voices drop, yeah, hi, how are you? Alvin's eyes are 0:02:10.770 --> 0:02:14.250 shut tight. His method is to try to will himself 0:02:14.290 --> 0:02:17.810 into the patient's skin to feel what the patient is feeling. 0:02:18.410 --> 0:02:19.610 I can do this better than you. 0:02:19.650 --> 0:02:21.570 Watch me. Okay, okay, okay. 0:02:21.650 --> 0:02:23.250 I'm gonna put my arms around you. 0:02:23.330 --> 0:02:25.210 I'm gonna bring you kind of clothes. 0:02:25.370 --> 0:02:27.530 I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah good. 0:02:27.690 --> 0:02:30.970 Alvin does voices and role plays, and at times the 0:02:31.010 --> 0:02:35.210 session feels like avant garde improv It's playful and honestly 0:02:35.290 --> 0:02:38.050 kind of bizarre. But the point of it all is 0:02:38.090 --> 0:02:41.090 to help the patient rehearse behavior in the office that 0:02:41.130 --> 0:02:46.730 he can then apply in real life. Toucher toucher, Oh yeah, Holder. 0:02:46.970 --> 0:02:48.810 And Jenny like so much. 0:02:49.050 --> 0:02:51.330 By the end of the session, Alvin has turned ted 0:02:51.730 --> 0:02:55.730 a meek, buttoned up patient into someone capable of expressing 0:02:55.770 --> 0:02:59.370 himself emotionally. Gonna be this way with Jenny because you 0:02:59.490 --> 0:03:00.450 rehearsed it, got it. 0:03:00.890 --> 0:03:05.450 I'm ready. 0:03:09.570 --> 0:03:14.170 We had this ability within us to become a whole 0:03:14.210 --> 0:03:14.770 new person. 0:03:15.730 --> 0:03:19.130 Alvin died in twenty fourteen, but this is Howard, a 0:03:19.170 --> 0:03:23.850 psychotherapist and one of Alvin's disciples. Howard runs Alvin's website 0:03:23.890 --> 0:03:27.530 and publishes his books. Are you talking a little hyperbolically 0:03:27.530 --> 0:03:28.770 when you say a whole new person? 0:03:28.890 --> 0:03:31.970 No, it is that radical topathon. It's to become a 0:03:32.010 --> 0:03:35.730 whole new person the term you use as an optimal person, 0:03:36.450 --> 0:03:38.370 and to discover that within yourself. 0:03:39.610 --> 0:03:43.410 According to Alvin, once you've discovered this optimal personhood, you 0:03:43.450 --> 0:03:45.890 can shake off what others want and live on your 0:03:45.890 --> 0:03:46.530 own terms. 0:03:46.930 --> 0:03:48.890 It changed my life direction. 0:03:49.290 --> 0:03:52.170 And for these kinds of radical results, Alvin was given 0:03:52.170 --> 0:03:56.690 a Lifetime Achievement Award from the American Psychological Association. One 0:03:56.730 --> 0:04:00.570 psychology textbook even goes so far as to describe Alvin 0:04:00.690 --> 0:04:14.170 as being quote as important as Freud. But this isn't 0:04:14.170 --> 0:04:17.529 a story about Alvin's professional life, his life inside the office. 0:04:18.529 --> 0:04:21.690 This is a story about Alvin's real life. 0:04:21.770 --> 0:04:23.129 He insisted, I run away. 0:04:24.130 --> 0:04:27.529 This is Rachel, Alvin's daughter, and I. 0:04:27.529 --> 0:04:32.570 Did, How old were you? I was in grade five? 0:04:34.130 --> 0:04:38.010 The year was nineteen seventy. Alvin and Rachel's mom had 0:04:38.049 --> 0:04:41.210 been locked in an ugly custody battle for eight years. 0:04:41.690 --> 0:04:45.609 Rachel's mom was poor and struggled with depression. Rachel really 0:04:45.650 --> 0:04:49.010 wanted to live with her dad, so when Alvin suggested 0:04:49.089 --> 0:04:51.689 she run away from Judy in Denver to his house 0:04:51.729 --> 0:04:54.969 in Ohio, Rachel didn't pack a bag, She didn't say 0:04:55.010 --> 0:04:57.849 goodbye to anyone. She just left. 0:04:58.130 --> 0:05:01.089 Like he set up this whole thing with his lawyer, 0:05:01.330 --> 0:05:04.089 and I just felt like I needed to do with 0:05:04.130 --> 0:05:06.089 my dad. And the lawyer told me and this was 0:05:06.130 --> 0:05:08.409 the right thing. I think, I said, I was going 0:05:08.450 --> 0:05:12.529 to the lie and somehow, I don't remember how I 0:05:12.570 --> 0:05:15.529 got to the lawyer's office, and then they took me 0:05:15.609 --> 0:05:18.289 to the airport and put me on the plane and 0:05:18.330 --> 0:05:19.330 I left. 0:05:24.409 --> 0:05:27.130 Alvin had gotten remarried to a woman with two kids, 0:05:27.409 --> 0:05:29.409 and Rachel loved feeling like she was a part of 0:05:29.450 --> 0:05:32.529 this happy family. There were dogs to play with and 0:05:32.609 --> 0:05:36.249 bikes to ride, and yet this other feeling would often 0:05:36.289 --> 0:05:36.770 creep in. 0:05:37.330 --> 0:05:40.249 I miss my mom, I miss my friends, I miss 0:05:40.330 --> 0:05:44.689 my cat. But I could never ever ever say that 0:05:44.929 --> 0:05:46.650 out loud to anybody. 0:05:47.890 --> 0:05:50.729 And there was someone else Rachel missed, missed most of all. 0:05:54.609 --> 0:05:58.889 She told us she was going to the library, and 0:06:00.089 --> 0:06:02.289 then she never came back. 0:06:03.330 --> 0:06:06.249 This is Rachel's brother John. He's two and a half 0:06:06.330 --> 0:06:09.369 years younger than Rachel and only has flashes of early 0:06:09.450 --> 0:06:13.570 childhood memory About Alvin. He recalls doing father's son things 0:06:13.609 --> 0:06:16.650 that it'd make perfect sense if the son was an adult, 0:06:17.250 --> 0:06:20.010 things like lifting weights together and smoking. 0:06:20.729 --> 0:06:23.770 He was a pipe smoker. He bought me my own 0:06:24.169 --> 0:06:27.770 little cherrywood pipe, and you know, as a four year old, 0:06:27.810 --> 0:06:30.890 he actually had me smoking, you know, tobacco in the 0:06:30.929 --> 0:06:32.049 pipe with him. 0:06:32.409 --> 0:06:35.849 It was as though Alvin couldn't distinguish between adults and children, 0:06:36.409 --> 0:06:39.049 which was why he saw John's closeness with his mom 0:06:39.450 --> 0:06:43.010 not as a child's natural maternal attachment, but rather as 0:06:43.049 --> 0:06:46.489 a personal slight and so Alvin ever asked John to 0:06:46.529 --> 0:06:50.289 run away. John was left behind in Denver with Judy. 0:06:50.929 --> 0:06:53.330 I think in his mind, I just, you know, was 0:06:53.450 --> 0:06:57.489 more a mama's boy and a chip off Judy's block, 0:06:57.609 --> 0:07:00.849 and I think he sort of gave up on me, 0:07:02.010 --> 0:07:04.409 and he was really focused on Rachel. 0:07:05.369 --> 0:07:08.529 And as the final custody hearing approached, Alvin's focus on 0:07:08.650 --> 0:07:11.929 Rachel and intensified. He wanted to prove to the court 0:07:12.010 --> 0:07:14.770 that Rachel was better off with him, So he had 0:07:14.770 --> 0:07:18.690 about a half dozen social workers and psychologists offtfare assessments, 0:07:19.250 --> 0:07:23.210 Rachel was interviewed, and Alvin's new family observed. None of 0:07:23.210 --> 0:07:27.129 the experts spoke to Judy, and the plan worked. In 0:07:27.170 --> 0:07:30.130 the autumn of nineteen seventy, a judge ruled that Rachel 0:07:30.130 --> 0:07:32.809 would be allowed to stay in Ohio with al for good, 0:07:33.450 --> 0:07:35.890 but John would remain in Denver with Judy. 0:07:36.730 --> 0:07:38.489 And we never lived together again. 0:07:46.369 --> 0:07:50.130 When you have a sibling who is just a critical 0:07:50.450 --> 0:07:53.649 part of your family and then you're separated from them, 0:07:54.090 --> 0:07:54.810 it's a wound. 0:07:55.570 --> 0:07:58.850 How uncommon was an arrangement like that? 0:07:59.690 --> 0:08:03.810 Extreme? Yeah, very very uncommon. Kids are not split up. 0:08:04.929 --> 0:08:09.170 We each grew up alone. I missed her through my 0:08:09.170 --> 0:08:13.410 my whole childhood. I missed her a lot. I mean, 0:08:13.489 --> 0:08:17.970 we were so close when we were young, and you know, 0:08:18.770 --> 0:08:21.810 she was the big sister who through all of that 0:08:21.970 --> 0:08:29.530 was looking out for me growing up from then on, 0:08:29.890 --> 0:08:33.370 just me and my mom. Grew up as an only child, 0:08:33.970 --> 0:08:39.450 and my mom just always being in pain, and she 0:08:39.570 --> 0:08:41.929 never was able to enjoy whatever it is we were 0:08:41.970 --> 0:08:44.290 doing at the moment. It was always, Oh, if only 0:08:44.690 --> 0:08:46.650 Rachel were here, we could all be together, and I'd 0:08:46.650 --> 0:08:49.130 be saying, but we're here now. 0:08:50.450 --> 0:08:53.730 When he turned thirteen, John invited Rachel to his bar Mitzvah, 0:08:54.290 --> 0:08:57.930 but Alvin wouldn't let her go. Rachel sent a poem instead. 0:08:58.650 --> 0:09:01.850 It had to do with a rubber band stretching across 0:09:01.890 --> 0:09:09.490 the distance and connecting us. 0:09:10.610 --> 0:09:13.210 For John, not only did he lose his big sister, 0:09:13.570 --> 0:09:17.050 he also lost his dad. Year after year, John tried 0:09:17.090 --> 0:09:20.130 to re enter Alvin's life, but each time he reached out, 0:09:20.370 --> 0:09:24.570 Alvin rebuked him. One time, as an adolescent, John tried 0:09:24.570 --> 0:09:25.450 scheduling a visit. 0:09:26.170 --> 0:09:30.650 Then he said, well, as long as you guys you 0:09:30.690 --> 0:09:34.610 know me and my mom required any money, any child support, 0:09:34.770 --> 0:09:38.050 there be no visit. And I said, well, it sounds 0:09:38.130 --> 0:09:40.770 like you care more about money than about me, And 0:09:41.650 --> 0:09:43.250 he said, well, I don't want it to just sound 0:09:43.330 --> 0:09:44.810 like that. That's how it is. 0:09:51.530 --> 0:09:55.210 Nevertheless, a few years later, John asked once again if 0:09:55.210 --> 0:09:58.890 he could come visit. By this point, Rachel was eighteen 0:09:59.090 --> 0:10:02.170 and no longer living with Alvin, So when Alvin refused 0:10:02.250 --> 0:10:05.250 John yet again, Rachel told her brother to come visit 0:10:05.290 --> 0:10:09.250 her instead. They hadn't seen each other in eight years. 0:10:10.090 --> 0:10:11.970 Was she the same sister that you remembered? 0:10:14.130 --> 0:10:16.610 No? I mean I knew her as a you know, 0:10:18.770 --> 0:10:21.930 six seven, eight, nine ten year old. Next time I 0:10:21.970 --> 0:10:24.570 saw her, she was an adult. 0:10:25.290 --> 0:10:27.850 In the years since that visit, Rachel and John have 0:10:27.890 --> 0:10:30.530 made a point of staying in each other's lives. They 0:10:30.570 --> 0:10:33.610 talk on the phone, celebrate holidays together, and once a 0:10:33.690 --> 0:10:36.770 year their families all take a trip. But their childhood 0:10:36.850 --> 0:10:38.570 together that's been lost. 0:10:39.290 --> 0:10:42.930 I mean, my daughter certainly watches us and thinks that 0:10:42.970 --> 0:10:48.650 we're more like cousins. She can see the disconnect because 0:10:48.690 --> 0:10:49.970 we did not grow up together. 0:10:50.930 --> 0:10:54.330 John and Rachel still have questions about their childhood, but 0:10:54.370 --> 0:10:56.610 now that their parents are both dead, they have no 0:10:56.650 --> 0:10:59.810 one to ask, so they pass through their separate memories, 0:10:59.970 --> 0:11:03.250 trying to construct a timeline, comparing moments of overlap and 0:11:03.250 --> 0:11:06.850 filling in the blanks to this end. One night, while 0:11:06.890 --> 0:11:10.170 John was visiting Rachel for Thanksgiving, he asked if they 0:11:10.170 --> 0:11:15.170 could go through Alvin's files. Alvin was an obsessive record keeper, 0:11:15.410 --> 0:11:19.130 and after he died, Rachel inherited his papers. She'd never 0:11:19.170 --> 0:11:21.530 really gone through them, keeping them stored away in a 0:11:21.570 --> 0:11:25.210 filing cabinet, but that night she pulled him out, and 0:11:25.250 --> 0:11:29.130 together John and Rachel made a series of disturbing discoveries, 0:11:29.970 --> 0:11:32.449 the first of which was the script. 0:11:34.850 --> 0:11:37.930 The script for me was like, oh my God. 0:11:38.930 --> 0:11:41.850 The script was a lengthy diatribe written by Alvin from 0:11:41.850 --> 0:11:44.730 the point of view of a child, Rachel's point of view. 0:11:45.410 --> 0:11:49.690 In it, Alvin refers to himself as Daddy, Judy, as mother, 0:11:50.010 --> 0:11:53.930 or Judy or simply she. I later asked Rachel to 0:11:53.970 --> 0:11:58.010 read some over the phone, two and. 0:11:58.010 --> 0:12:02.170 Half pages long and small psychologists, writing, Okay, so here 0:12:02.210 --> 0:12:06.810 I go. It's in my good, happy dreams. Custody is changed, 0:12:06.930 --> 0:12:11.050 and I live with Daddy. If I am forced to 0:12:11.290 --> 0:12:14.010 go back and live with mother, it will only be 0:12:14.130 --> 0:12:17.410 till the day I'm fourteen, which apparently was when you 0:12:17.450 --> 0:12:21.690 could de side. When I'm with her, I feel scared 0:12:21.730 --> 0:12:25.050 that I might get tight and angry and cold like Judy. 0:12:26.050 --> 0:12:28.770 She's not a mother, she is a keeper. She makes 0:12:28.810 --> 0:12:32.050 me feel like I'm in a prison. I can't let 0:12:32.090 --> 0:12:32.890 her touch me. 0:12:33.610 --> 0:12:36.810 It was like finding your childhood internal monologue committed to 0:12:36.850 --> 0:12:40.730 paper and written in your father's handwriting. Rachel didn't remember 0:12:40.810 --> 0:12:43.490 seeing the script as a kid, but you remembered saying 0:12:43.570 --> 0:12:47.330 those things, and she remembered thinking them. In one of 0:12:47.370 --> 0:12:51.930 Alvin's many books, a volume entitled The Manual of Optimal Behavior, 0:12:52.330 --> 0:12:55.410 He writes that behavior can be rehearsed and modified quote 0:12:55.770 --> 0:12:58.330 until you are ready and eager to go ahead and 0:12:58.410 --> 0:13:02.650 do what you have rehearsed and modified. Unbeknownst to her, 0:13:03.130 --> 0:13:05.930 Alvin was having Rachel rehearse and modify. 0:13:06.970 --> 0:13:12.650 It was so explicit. There was nothing subtle about it. 0:13:12.730 --> 0:13:14.090 You know, the whole thing was sick. 0:13:15.530 --> 0:13:18.130 The second thing discovered among the files was a letter 0:13:18.130 --> 0:13:21.530 from Rachel to her mom. In it, she begs Judy 0:13:21.610 --> 0:13:24.890 to let her live with Alvin, but there were two copies, 0:13:25.530 --> 0:13:28.930 one written in Rachel's hand and one written in Alvin's. 0:13:38.490 --> 0:13:41.930 Going through the papers, Rachel remembered, other things, how Alvin 0:13:42.010 --> 0:13:44.330 encouraged her not to smile when she was with her mom, 0:13:44.650 --> 0:13:47.410 saying if someone photographed her happy, it could be used 0:13:47.410 --> 0:13:50.850 as evidence against him in court. In every photo from 0:13:50.850 --> 0:13:53.690 that period with her mother, Rachel is wearing a frown. 0:13:54.410 --> 0:13:58.450 That's when I started questioning and started to realize that 0:13:58.570 --> 0:14:01.530 I was coached or brainwashed. 0:14:04.730 --> 0:14:08.250 It made sense. For most of her adult life, Rachel 0:14:08.290 --> 0:14:11.330 had had no memory of loving her mom. It was 0:14:11.370 --> 0:14:14.130 only after her mother's death when she found mother's day 0:14:14.170 --> 0:14:16.330 and birthday card she'd written to Judy when she was 0:14:16.450 --> 0:14:20.810 very small that Rachel realized she had I love you, mommy. 0:14:20.890 --> 0:14:24.410 She'd written I love you so much, but with Al's 0:14:24.450 --> 0:14:34.570 constant coaching, it had all been stamped out. The final 0:14:34.610 --> 0:14:37.570 thing John and Rachel found that night were those psychological 0:14:37.610 --> 0:14:40.690 reports Alvin at Rachel submit to just before the final 0:14:40.690 --> 0:14:44.810 custody hearing. In them, you see Alvin's scripting bear out. 0:14:45.450 --> 0:14:48.770 One report notes that Rachel kept repeating, quote, I want 0:14:48.810 --> 0:14:51.730 to live with my father. He loves me. My mother 0:14:51.850 --> 0:14:55.170 doesn't love me. The report notes that she said this 0:14:55.370 --> 0:15:00.850 with quote grim determination. They also uncovered one particular report 0:15:00.890 --> 0:15:03.290 that night that was longer than any of the others. 0:15:03.930 --> 0:15:06.530 It was the only one that evaluated both John and Rachel, 0:15:06.930 --> 0:15:10.410 and in this it carried the most weight and what 0:15:10.530 --> 0:15:13.530 shocked John and Rachel most of all, my dad. 0:15:13.410 --> 0:15:14.050 Clearly ed. 0:15:15.570 --> 0:15:18.770 Edited it and then she rewrote it with the edits 0:15:19.130 --> 0:15:22.450 and submitted that rewrite. 0:15:22.690 --> 0:15:24.370 Is that ethical as a social work? 0:15:24.450 --> 0:15:26.530 No no, no, no, no, no no no no it's 0:15:26.570 --> 0:15:31.650 not no oh no no no. No one should ever 0:15:31.770 --> 0:15:36.570 let anybody else, especially their client, edit their reports. No, 0:15:36.650 --> 0:15:38.170 it's it's really bad. 0:15:39.490 --> 0:15:42.730 The report was written by a social worker named Joyce. 0:15:49.410 --> 0:15:52.890 Alvin's edits to Joyce's report made the language more emphatic. 0:15:53.530 --> 0:15:56.730 For example, where Joyce had written that Rachel was hesitant 0:15:56.770 --> 0:15:59.530 when it came to judy, Alvin changed it to say 0:15:59.650 --> 0:16:03.490 she was fearful. In another spot, he added that Rachel 0:16:03.570 --> 0:16:06.450 wanted to blot out any memory of ever having been 0:16:06.450 --> 0:16:07.730 away from him. 0:16:08.490 --> 0:16:12.810 Honestly, I mean it was horrifying, you know, just to 0:16:12.850 --> 0:16:18.610 see the detailed notes, to see the edited drafts, the 0:16:18.650 --> 0:16:22.610 crossouts and his handwriting, and then the final version that 0:16:22.690 --> 0:16:26.050 was submitted to the courts with his edits in there, 0:16:27.410 --> 0:16:29.330 like there's no question in what happened. 0:16:30.810 --> 0:16:34.290 The report concludes with a recommendation, the strongest one of 0:16:34.330 --> 0:16:37.330 any report and the only recommendation of its kind. 0:16:37.890 --> 0:16:41.050 She recommended that I live with him, and that my 0:16:41.090 --> 0:16:42.970 brother lived with my mom. 0:16:44.210 --> 0:16:47.610 John and Rachel's separation came down to a decision dictated 0:16:47.690 --> 0:16:55.330 by Alvin and signed off on by Joyce. How was 0:16:55.370 --> 0:16:57.770 Alvin able to exert this kind of power over a 0:16:57.770 --> 0:17:01.170 social worker, someone who was supposed to be an impartial outsider. 0:17:02.090 --> 0:17:05.410 John and Rachel couldn't understand it. But that night, when 0:17:05.490 --> 0:17:08.889 Rachel googled Joyce, she was shocked to realize that Joyce 0:17:08.889 --> 0:17:13.409 had been an impartial outsider at all. Joyce was a 0:17:13.409 --> 0:17:18.169 family friend. Rachel recognized Joyce as the kind, dark haired 0:17:18.209 --> 0:17:21.530 woman whose house she visited as a child. Rachel would 0:17:21.530 --> 0:17:23.649 bring her cello over to play music with Joyce in 0:17:23.689 --> 0:17:27.129 her family, which means that, on top of everything else 0:17:27.169 --> 0:17:29.810 wrong with the report, Joyce should never have been the 0:17:29.810 --> 0:17:31.649 person to write it in the first place. 0:17:32.530 --> 0:17:35.650 She was like the one person in my life as 0:17:35.689 --> 0:17:40.090 a kid who could have said, Hey, I think you're 0:17:40.090 --> 0:17:43.929 coaching her and this isn't right. Why are we going 0:17:44.010 --> 0:17:47.330 to try and split these kids up? She was the 0:17:47.369 --> 0:17:50.170 one who could have said something. 0:17:51.169 --> 0:17:56.769 In nineteen seventy Joyce recommended that my sister go with 0:17:56.810 --> 0:17:58.970 my father and that I go with my mother. And 0:17:59.010 --> 0:18:05.249 that's what happened, and that dictated the course of my life. 0:18:05.490 --> 0:18:07.169 What happened? 0:18:08.290 --> 0:18:10.369 This is the question that's been nagging at John and 0:18:10.449 --> 0:18:13.850 Rachel since they found the report. How could this have happened? 0:18:14.689 --> 0:18:17.729 And so John and Rachel want to find Joyce and 0:18:17.850 --> 0:18:21.249 ask her. What I don't fully understand, though, is what 0:18:21.330 --> 0:18:24.609 I have to offer. Rachel and John are both practicing 0:18:24.649 --> 0:18:28.929 therapists themselves. They're more than capable of posing difficult questions 0:18:29.449 --> 0:18:32.449 and Although I play a mental health semi professional, semi 0:18:32.490 --> 0:18:35.770 convincingly on a podcast, I'm not actually one at all. 0:18:36.609 --> 0:18:39.170 What can I do well? 0:18:40.770 --> 0:18:40.850 So? 0:18:41.129 --> 0:18:45.209 I have had to advocate for myself my entire life 0:18:45.369 --> 0:18:49.249 from a very young age, and nobody advocated for me 0:18:49.369 --> 0:18:53.850 or my brother, and so if you could help me 0:18:53.970 --> 0:18:57.929 with this, it would be a healing piece for me 0:18:58.090 --> 0:19:00.489 that somebody else advocated for me. 0:19:06.609 --> 0:19:28.969 After the break in search of Joyce, I find Joyce 0:19:29.010 --> 0:19:32.649 the social workers facebook and email address right away, and 0:19:32.689 --> 0:19:34.969 I message to ask if she'd be willing to speak 0:19:34.970 --> 0:19:38.569 with John and Rachel about their parents' custody battle. I 0:19:38.570 --> 0:19:41.570 don't hear back for several weeks, and during this time, 0:19:41.850 --> 0:19:44.330 my thoughts keep returning to Alvin and the video of 0:19:44.369 --> 0:19:47.689 his session with Ted, the meek, buttoned up patient. 0:19:47.810 --> 0:19:49.529 Toucher toucher oh Jack. 0:19:49.929 --> 0:19:53.490 Throughout, Alvin tries to help Ted release his bottled up feelings. 0:19:53.649 --> 0:19:54.850 I can do this better than you. 0:19:54.889 --> 0:19:55.249 Watch me. 0:19:55.409 --> 0:19:57.410 Okay, right, okay, okay. 0:19:57.169 --> 0:19:58.729 What's happening inside me? 0:19:59.409 --> 0:20:00.650 Right now? 0:20:01.290 --> 0:20:02.169 Over my chest? 0:20:02.250 --> 0:20:04.090 I'm having a who It felt like a brand of 0:20:04.129 --> 0:20:07.530 extreme empathy in the first viewing, now feels like something else. 0:20:07.570 --> 0:20:09.210 I'm gonna put my arms around you. 0:20:09.369 --> 0:20:11.290 I'm doing better than you. Huh yeah. 0:20:11.730 --> 0:20:14.210 Now it feels as though Alvin is scripting the outcome. 0:20:14.490 --> 0:20:16.330 If you want to cry, go ahead, good, it's okay, 0:20:16.490 --> 0:20:16.729 go on. 0:20:17.129 --> 0:20:19.369 At one point, Alvin tells Ted to cry. 0:20:19.689 --> 0:20:22.090 Ted, it's okay, go ahead, cry, go it's all right. 0:20:22.169 --> 0:20:24.169 Ted is not anywhere close to crying. 0:20:24.330 --> 0:20:25.250 Ted, you're starting to cry. 0:20:25.250 --> 0:20:27.609 Go ahead, let yourself, let yourself go on. It's all right, 0:20:27.649 --> 0:20:30.369 go on, do it. Ted is not starting to cry, 0:20:30.970 --> 0:20:33.850 but Alvin insists, Ted, you're on the verge of crying. 0:20:34.369 --> 0:20:34.649 Do it. 0:20:34.730 --> 0:20:35.770 No, cry, go. 0:20:35.649 --> 0:20:38.929 Ahead, And then a tear appears in the corner of 0:20:38.970 --> 0:20:42.770 Ted's eye. It rolls down his cheek. It's as though 0:20:42.810 --> 0:20:46.249 Alvin has conjured it into being through sheer force of 0:20:46.250 --> 0:20:46.929 his own will. 0:20:47.250 --> 0:20:50.210 Good for you, Good for you, great, great, okay now. 0:20:53.850 --> 0:20:56.290 The video is a part of a series produced by 0:20:56.290 --> 0:21:01.769 the American Psychological Association intended to showcase prestigious psychologists in session. 0:21:02.570 --> 0:21:05.609 The way the series works is that, for privacy reasons, 0:21:05.770 --> 0:21:09.049 the patients are portrayed by actors. As the credits were, 0:21:09.449 --> 0:21:12.850 I learned that while Alvin the therapist is Alvin the therapist, 0:21:13.330 --> 0:21:16.649 Ted the patient is actually Bob the actor. 0:21:17.209 --> 0:21:19.850 It was a quick shoot. There wasn't a rehearsal per se. 0:21:19.889 --> 0:21:21.930 We just kind of went in and improvised. 0:21:22.649 --> 0:21:26.250 This is Bob, and performance wise, Bob is done at all. 0:21:26.609 --> 0:21:30.609 Chuggled swords, cracked whips, eaten fire. I've done for ten years. 0:21:30.649 --> 0:21:32.169 I did a stage hypnosis show. 0:21:32.810 --> 0:21:36.330 Bob is a regular renaissance man in that he also 0:21:36.369 --> 0:21:39.449 worked at a renaissance fair. When Bob showed up to 0:21:39.490 --> 0:21:42.210 film that day, he was asked to improvise some sort 0:21:42.250 --> 0:21:45.330 of marital problem that Alvin could help solve by bringing 0:21:45.369 --> 0:21:48.409 his method to bear. I asked Bob if he found 0:21:48.409 --> 0:21:53.169 Alvin's behavior domineering, but Bob doesn't recall much. There is 0:21:53.209 --> 0:21:56.529 one thing, though, that Bob does still recall, even thirteen 0:21:56.609 --> 0:22:00.890 years later. It seems Bob wasn't Alvin's first choice of patient. 0:22:01.490 --> 0:22:03.369 He had had someone else do it before. I think 0:22:03.369 --> 0:22:06.249 it was an African American lady and it didn't go 0:22:06.409 --> 0:22:07.609 the way it needed to do. 0:22:07.649 --> 0:22:08.210 You know what I mean? 0:22:09.689 --> 0:22:10.450 Can you elaborate? 0:22:10.770 --> 0:22:13.129 He showed it to me briefly. 0:22:13.449 --> 0:22:16.290 Bob describes the video Alvin showed him before they started 0:22:16.290 --> 0:22:19.330 filming that day. In it, the setup was the same 0:22:19.369 --> 0:22:22.409 as it was for Bob shoot. Alvin was in an armchair, 0:22:22.649 --> 0:22:25.969 his legs up on an ottoman, except this time in 0:22:26.010 --> 0:22:30.090 the armchair beside him was the actress. Like Bob, the 0:22:30.129 --> 0:22:32.090 actress in the video had been asked to come up 0:22:32.129 --> 0:22:35.609 with a marriage problem, but in doing so, the actress 0:22:35.649 --> 0:22:38.810 went to a darker place than Alvin anticipated, describing a 0:22:38.889 --> 0:22:43.369 husband who was vicious and cruel. Nonetheless, Alvin tried to 0:22:43.409 --> 0:22:44.090 offer counsel. 0:22:44.770 --> 0:22:47.530 He was saying things like when he behaves in this way, 0:22:47.609 --> 0:22:50.170 can you be playful about it? And the actress said 0:22:50.209 --> 0:22:54.050 things like when he calls me names, suggesting that he 0:22:54.169 --> 0:22:55.889 might be in some ways borderline, at the very least 0:22:56.449 --> 0:22:57.369 verbally abusive. 0:22:58.330 --> 0:23:00.369 It seemed there was the way the actress was given 0:23:00.409 --> 0:23:03.530 to talking about an abusive relationship, and then there was 0:23:03.570 --> 0:23:05.689 the way that Alvin preferred her to talk about one. 0:23:06.409 --> 0:23:09.529 And so the actress was replaced and Bob shown her 0:23:09.609 --> 0:23:12.850 video to illustrate what Alvin did not want. 0:23:12.929 --> 0:23:24.889 It's you know. I got the message, I guess. 0:23:26.330 --> 0:23:29.449 Still, not having received a response from Joyce, I decide 0:23:29.490 --> 0:23:32.050 to mail a letter, and just a few days later 0:23:32.449 --> 0:23:36.090 I find an email in my inbox. In it, Joyce 0:23:36.129 --> 0:23:38.330 tells me She's not sure how much help she can be. 0:23:38.970 --> 0:23:42.249 She reminds me that it has been fifty years, but 0:23:42.409 --> 0:23:46.490 she says she's willing to try. She concludes the email 0:23:46.530 --> 0:24:05.370 by saying, please feel free to contact me if you wish. Joyce, Hello, Hello, 0:24:05.929 --> 0:24:07.290 I think your sister's here too. 0:24:08.129 --> 0:24:09.770 Here we are well. 0:24:11.609 --> 0:24:14.530 The last time John and Rachel saw Joyce they were children. 0:24:15.010 --> 0:24:18.489 They're now in their fifties and sixties. Because of the pandemic, 0:24:18.649 --> 0:24:21.249 the meeting between Rachel, John, and Joyce will have to 0:24:21.250 --> 0:24:24.450 take place over Zoom. John and Rachel joined first from 0:24:24.490 --> 0:24:28.090 their respective homes. So how are you guys feeling today? 0:24:29.530 --> 0:24:30.450 Uh? 0:24:30.929 --> 0:24:34.689 Quite anxious? Actually, what about your brother John? 0:24:35.609 --> 0:24:37.769 I'm more nervous than I thought I would be. 0:24:38.929 --> 0:24:42.530 John is seated in a chair, his posture upright. Rachel 0:24:42.570 --> 0:24:44.970 is sitting back on a couch. Go ahead and talk 0:24:45.010 --> 0:24:46.530 a little bit. What did you have for breakfast? 0:24:47.409 --> 0:24:51.049 I had yogurt and blueberries. 0:24:51.129 --> 0:24:53.810 Yeah, me too. 0:24:56.250 --> 0:24:58.090 I can see the Joyce is in the Zoom waiting 0:24:58.169 --> 0:25:02.169 room waiting. Back in my day, a waiting room had 0:25:02.209 --> 0:25:05.129 all kinds of stuff to keep you occupied, like lukewarm 0:25:05.209 --> 0:25:07.689 water you could drink from a paper cup or a 0:25:07.730 --> 0:25:11.050 twenty year old copy of Oat. But now waiting rooms 0:25:11.050 --> 0:25:15.449 are so metaphysical there's nothing to do with them. I 0:25:15.490 --> 0:25:20.369 suggest we let Joyce in. Okay, Yeah, okay, okay, yeah, 0:25:21.250 --> 0:25:24.770 let's do it. Joyce appears on the screen wearing a 0:25:24.810 --> 0:25:27.609 bright blue sweater and a colorful ascot that gives her 0:25:27.649 --> 0:25:31.369 the affect of a fun grandmother. Standing beside Joyce is 0:25:31.369 --> 0:25:33.689 a middle aged man who I assume is her son. 0:25:34.129 --> 0:25:35.369 He's helping her get set up. 0:25:35.810 --> 0:25:36.090 Hello. 0:25:37.970 --> 0:25:41.810 Hello, Joyce and her son frown at the computer. It 0:25:41.810 --> 0:25:44.969 seems they're having sound issues. There's a long moment in 0:25:45.010 --> 0:25:48.129 which we all look at each other in silence, and 0:25:48.169 --> 0:25:55.570 then hello, Hi. Joyce settles into an armchair. Well do 0:25:56.290 --> 0:25:58.210 you all look familiar to each other? 0:25:59.330 --> 0:26:04.130 No, well it's been a long time. I'm Rachel. 0:26:04.490 --> 0:26:06.250 Hi Joyce, Hi, Rachel. 0:26:06.929 --> 0:26:07.689 Hi, I am John. 0:26:08.090 --> 0:26:13.770 You're John, So Joyce, do you uh? 0:26:13.970 --> 0:26:14.209 I know? 0:26:14.889 --> 0:26:18.930 John and Rachel are curious about just how much you remember, 0:26:19.050 --> 0:26:21.009 maybe maybe virtually nothing. 0:26:22.730 --> 0:26:25.929 So I wasn't clear what what I can do for you. 0:26:26.050 --> 0:26:30.330 I'm certainly willing to try. So. 0:26:30.649 --> 0:26:33.769 I think what we're remembering from that time, or what 0:26:33.850 --> 0:26:36.970 we know, is that my dad and my mom were 0:26:36.970 --> 0:26:38.810 in a very I don't know if you remember a 0:26:38.810 --> 0:26:45.129 bitter custody battle, and there were so many court battles, 0:26:45.609 --> 0:26:50.569 and one of the reports was done by you, So 0:26:50.609 --> 0:26:52.530 we wanted to talk to you about that and find 0:26:52.530 --> 0:26:53.969 out what you remembered about that. 0:26:55.649 --> 0:26:58.490 Joyce inhales to clenched teeth, shakes her head. 0:26:59.449 --> 0:27:03.649 Oh, I really don't know what happened. 0:27:07.490 --> 0:27:12.609 We wanna we think. I think our father influenced kind of 0:27:12.649 --> 0:27:15.210 everybody he met in a very heavy handed way. 0:27:15.810 --> 0:27:22.449 Yes, I would certainly agree with that. You know, saying 0:27:22.449 --> 0:27:25.250 al was heavy handed is an understatement. 0:27:26.770 --> 0:27:29.450 Joyce's husband at the time was a colleague of Alvin's. 0:27:29.810 --> 0:27:32.209 That's how she first came to know Alvin. He and 0:27:32.209 --> 0:27:35.770 her husband both taught in the local university psychology department. 0:27:36.449 --> 0:27:40.329 Joyce says her husband would always come home with al Stories. 0:27:40.330 --> 0:27:48.009 Acting out at meetings and shouting out inappropriate stuff. So 0:27:48.050 --> 0:27:52.889 he was very, very controlling. He took control of any situation, 0:27:52.929 --> 0:27:57.570 any social situation. One party at my house, he was 0:27:57.609 --> 0:28:01.290 a guest along with the other members of the psych department, 0:28:01.850 --> 0:28:05.729 and he just took control of the whole evening. And 0:28:05.850 --> 0:28:09.850 of course the more people drank, the more intense that 0:28:09.970 --> 0:28:14.050 God I think the focus was on people's dreams and 0:28:14.129 --> 0:28:15.409 dream analysis. 0:28:16.850 --> 0:28:21.090 For Alvin a Freudian, this meant exploring each partygoer's dream 0:28:21.209 --> 0:28:25.370 for hidden sexual desires that he Alvin could then expound 0:28:25.449 --> 0:28:33.529 upon in a room full of colleagues. Joyce relates the 0:28:33.530 --> 0:28:37.169 anecdote to illustrate the kind of guy Alvin was, but 0:28:37.250 --> 0:28:40.210 John hears something else in the story, So you all 0:28:40.250 --> 0:28:46.209 socialized well. John is trying to remind Joyce that she 0:28:46.290 --> 0:28:50.450 was Alvin's friend, that writing the report wasn't appropriate, but 0:28:50.490 --> 0:28:52.530 the implication goes over Joyce's head. 0:28:53.010 --> 0:28:58.210 The department wasn't a big one, and it was close knit, 0:28:58.370 --> 0:29:06.450 and everybody got together. They you know, Friday, what do 0:29:06.490 --> 0:29:08.930 you do? You hang out with the people that you 0:29:08.970 --> 0:29:14.930 know best, and that was in the department. What kinds 0:29:14.970 --> 0:29:18.610 of questions did you have that I can help with 0:29:18.770 --> 0:29:22.370 or that I might answer or speculate about. 0:29:24.850 --> 0:29:30.010 You don't remember evaluating us, You don't remember having that role. 0:29:30.810 --> 0:29:37.009 No, I guess I'm curious if you remember, because I 0:29:37.050 --> 0:29:39.009 would have said also, like I want to live with 0:29:39.010 --> 0:29:41.890 my dad and I love living here. But I was 0:29:41.970 --> 0:29:46.890 coached like don't smile if someone takes a picture of 0:29:46.970 --> 0:29:47.770 you with your mother. 0:29:48.530 --> 0:29:53.690 Oh, Rachel, Oh, Rachel, could you see that at all? No, 0:29:53.930 --> 0:29:55.850 I I this is all news to me. 0:29:58.130 --> 0:30:02.370 Did you do other custody evaluations? Was that a part 0:30:02.410 --> 0:30:03.969 of your practice? 0:30:06.050 --> 0:30:08.610 That may have been one of the first ones, And 0:30:08.810 --> 0:30:11.410 it was at his requests that I did that. 0:30:11.570 --> 0:30:16.250 Initially, it was at Al's request saying, oh, yeah, yeah, 0:30:18.090 --> 0:30:24.049 do you remember any thoughts or feelings that you know, 0:30:24.090 --> 0:30:27.489 maybe it's not appropriate for me to evaluate someone that 0:30:27.530 --> 0:30:28.410 I socialize. 0:30:29.450 --> 0:30:32.850 No, no, not really, because this was in the beginning 0:30:33.050 --> 0:30:37.410 of our arrival, and so we weren't really socializing at 0:30:37.410 --> 0:30:37.890 that point. 0:30:39.370 --> 0:30:42.009 At that point, Joyce and her husband had just arrived 0:30:42.050 --> 0:30:45.810 in town. While her husband taught at the university, Joyce 0:30:45.850 --> 0:30:49.050 did not. She hoped to someday, but she was still 0:30:49.090 --> 0:30:52.009 fairly young, and at the time the only women in 0:30:52.050 --> 0:30:56.250 the psych department were grad students and secretaries. So in Alvin, 0:30:56.370 --> 0:30:59.090 this larger than life figure came asking for a favor, 0:30:59.730 --> 0:31:00.810 it felt hard to say no. 0:31:01.530 --> 0:31:06.770 He was chair of that program, and you know, I 0:31:06.890 --> 0:31:13.610 was new in town. I'm a people pleaser, so I 0:31:13.650 --> 0:31:17.610 think that that added to my vulnerability to Al. 0:31:20.530 --> 0:31:20.690 Well. 0:31:20.730 --> 0:31:27.450 I want to make sure that you know that your 0:31:27.490 --> 0:31:29.529 report recommends that we're split up. 0:31:31.690 --> 0:31:34.890 Joyce takes off her glasses. She places them in her lap. 0:31:36.209 --> 0:31:46.010 Oh wow, I am sorry. I am I never would 0:31:46.050 --> 0:31:50.570 have done something like that, and hearing that I did 0:31:51.610 --> 0:31:53.850 makes makes me feel terrible. 0:31:56.250 --> 0:31:58.170 So that's a that's a surprise to you. 0:31:58.890 --> 0:32:04.930 It's total surprise, and it's totally against everything I believe. 0:32:07.250 --> 0:32:12.530 It's horrifying. I don't know what prompted it or what 0:32:12.570 --> 0:32:17.610 precipitated it. I don't know. I'm sorry. 0:32:18.890 --> 0:32:20.050 But of course there's more. 0:32:21.050 --> 0:32:25.170 You know, we can see al crossing out words and 0:32:25.209 --> 0:32:32.290 phrases that you wrote and then rewriting them in stronger language, 0:32:32.570 --> 0:32:37.650 and then it's that stronger language that's in the final report. 0:32:41.650 --> 0:32:47.170 I'm appalled by that. I hate to keep repeating myself, 0:32:47.209 --> 0:32:51.090 but I am truly sorry that that happened and had 0:32:51.170 --> 0:32:57.850 terrible consequences. I have a stomach ache. I feel terrible 0:32:58.209 --> 0:33:01.050 that it turned out that way. I feel awful that 0:33:01.130 --> 0:33:04.410 I had a pardon that or that I'm perceived to 0:33:04.690 --> 0:33:06.729 have had it. Well, I did, I mean, I can't 0:33:06.930 --> 0:33:08.249 say I didn't if I wrote it. 0:33:09.530 --> 0:33:12.370 This is something Joyce does a few times. She'll start 0:33:12.370 --> 0:33:14.850 to say something like if I did this, but then 0:33:14.890 --> 0:33:18.450 she'll correct herself. Rachel has the report standing by to 0:33:18.530 --> 0:33:20.570 hold to the camera so Joyce can see it for 0:33:20.610 --> 0:33:25.850 herself see her own signature, but that never becomes necessary. 0:33:25.930 --> 0:33:29.009 Even though she doesn't remember, Joyce believes John and Rachel, 0:33:29.530 --> 0:33:31.969 and so she doesn't cop out or quivocate. 0:33:32.810 --> 0:33:36.850 If I if I did something like that, or because 0:33:36.890 --> 0:33:40.769 I did something like that, I'm so sorry you guys. 0:33:41.610 --> 0:33:48.130 There's anything I can do to mitigate in some small way. 0:33:48.170 --> 0:33:50.969 And it means a lot that you say that. 0:33:51.370 --> 0:33:57.730 Oh yeah, yeah, And it's not just words, it's it's heartfelt. 0:33:58.370 --> 0:33:59.570 It's really heartfelt. 0:34:01.090 --> 0:34:03.370 Do you do you have any idea why he might 0:34:03.370 --> 0:34:05.410 have turned to you well. 0:34:05.290 --> 0:34:11.170 To control the outcome. I think he was more comfortable 0:34:11.170 --> 0:34:13.130 with women because he could push them around. 0:34:14.850 --> 0:34:20.450 Did you feel used by him? 0:34:20.690 --> 0:34:27.130 Well, I guess he was using me, so yeah. 0:34:25.770 --> 0:34:29.010 Joyce says. The relationship with Alvin was short lived. The 0:34:29.130 --> 0:34:31.730 end came soon after Joyce invited Alvin and a few 0:34:31.730 --> 0:34:35.130 of his psychologist friends to join her private practice. They 0:34:35.170 --> 0:34:37.770 accepted and all began working out of her office. 0:34:38.010 --> 0:34:40.969 And we did that for a while, and then they 0:34:41.090 --> 0:34:44.730 decided that it wasn't appropriate to have a social worker 0:34:44.770 --> 0:34:50.450 in the practice. So they asked me to leave, and 0:34:50.610 --> 0:34:56.530 it was at Elsin's instigation. What he said to me was, 0:34:56.610 --> 0:35:00.890 it's not that you're incompetent. It's just that I don't 0:35:00.890 --> 0:35:06.010 know that you're competent. And you know, for me to 0:35:06.050 --> 0:35:10.290 remember this fifty years later, that's a lot, doesn't it. 0:35:11.810 --> 0:35:14.850 So this was him kicking you out of the practice, 0:35:14.610 --> 0:35:18.810 My practice, my practice, your practice. 0:35:27.490 --> 0:35:30.490 I hear you like, very very very fondly. 0:35:30.970 --> 0:35:34.010 Well, you're kind, you're kind, you're kind. 0:35:34.170 --> 0:35:37.090 You are a nice lady. You're a good person. And 0:35:37.370 --> 0:35:39.890 I see that now too. I mean, I had every 0:35:39.930 --> 0:35:41.049 reason to feel that way. 0:35:42.930 --> 0:35:45.130 Rachel will later tell me that because of the way 0:35:45.170 --> 0:35:48.330 her dad brainwashed her, she often can trust her memories. 0:35:48.970 --> 0:35:51.450 So it feels good that her memory of Joyce is correct. 0:35:52.250 --> 0:35:56.050 Joyce is nice, but Rachel is nice too, and consent 0:35:56.170 --> 0:35:57.490 so badly Joyce is feeling. 0:35:58.050 --> 0:36:03.490 You know, I think my dad was so controlling, and 0:36:03.570 --> 0:36:08.810 I have to think that my dad coerced you and 0:36:09.970 --> 0:36:12.730 really pressured you to do that. 0:36:16.890 --> 0:36:23.770 Thank you. 0:36:23.770 --> 0:36:28.530 You know, hopefully you can tell Rachel and I are okay. 0:36:29.050 --> 0:36:32.810 We're really good parents. We're close to our children. We 0:36:32.850 --> 0:36:34.930 did not replicate any of this. 0:36:35.890 --> 0:36:37.970 Oh, that's wonderful. I'm so glad to hear that. 0:36:38.530 --> 0:36:42.210 And I've been with my wife thirty seven years and 0:36:43.170 --> 0:36:46.570 thankfully now you know, Rachel and I came back together 0:36:46.650 --> 0:36:49.210 on our own and I'm very close with my sister. 0:36:50.410 --> 0:36:53.410 Oh, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. 0:36:55.250 --> 0:36:58.010 Damage done to us can often become damage we do 0:36:58.050 --> 0:37:02.050 to others, and on it goes. But watching John and Rachel, 0:37:02.250 --> 0:37:04.890 I'm struck by the way they're breaking that cycle, not 0:37:04.970 --> 0:37:07.210 just in their lives, but right here in the room. 0:37:08.290 --> 0:37:09.610 Well zoom room. 0:37:10.490 --> 0:37:15.290 Just to be clear, Joyce, I really appreciate what you're saying, 0:37:15.330 --> 0:37:22.250 and really really important to me that others just own 0:37:22.370 --> 0:37:28.650 and acknowledge their role in any dynamic, in any interaction. 0:37:29.250 --> 0:37:35.690 If they do that, I'm good. And al never I 0:37:36.210 --> 0:37:44.050 tried in different ways, he would never own any culpability, responsibility, anything. 0:37:45.290 --> 0:37:48.130 When John first became a psychologist, he'd see Alvin at 0:37:48.210 --> 0:37:52.770 various conferences, where Alvin was received as a star. For John, 0:37:53.050 --> 0:37:55.290 it always occasioned a weird mix of pride in his 0:37:55.290 --> 0:38:00.610 father's career and bitterness over his personal rejection. At one conference, 0:38:00.930 --> 0:38:03.570 John attended Alvin's lecture in the hope of forcing his 0:38:03.570 --> 0:38:07.090 father to talk to him. Alvin saw John in the audience, 0:38:07.570 --> 0:38:10.290 but afterwards made him wait on along with all his 0:38:10.370 --> 0:38:15.570 adoring fans. Eventually, John grew frustrated and left. 0:38:15.810 --> 0:38:19.530 It's one of the mysteries of my life how he 0:38:19.730 --> 0:38:23.130 justified or rationalized to himself, you know, having a son 0:38:23.530 --> 0:38:29.170 and supposedly loving him and then just cutting him off 0:38:29.210 --> 0:38:33.410 and rejecting him for the rest of your life. I 0:38:33.450 --> 0:38:41.850 don't I can't fathom that at all. There was an 0:38:41.890 --> 0:38:48.730 email exchange over seven or eight months where I endeavored 0:38:48.770 --> 0:38:52.890 to answer that question, that lifelong question of you know why, 0:38:53.690 --> 0:38:57.090 and he just kept trying to sell me his books, 0:38:57.170 --> 0:39:00.009 and you know it became this refrain, have you read 0:39:00.010 --> 0:39:03.170 my book? Have you read my book? And I'd say, 0:39:04.050 --> 0:39:07.529 if you would like me to read your book, send 0:39:07.610 --> 0:39:11.010 me a copy and I will read it. No, he 0:39:11.090 --> 0:39:13.250 wants me to buy a book. He wanted me to 0:39:13.250 --> 0:39:13.850 buy a book. 0:39:21.690 --> 0:39:24.370 In his emails to John, Alvin wrote that it was 0:39:24.410 --> 0:39:27.530 a sophomoric myth that a parent should seek relationships with 0:39:27.610 --> 0:39:32.250 one's child. I do not accept silly pop psychology truisms, 0:39:32.290 --> 0:39:36.370 he wrote. Near the end of Alvin's life, John wanted 0:39:36.410 --> 0:39:38.690 to make one last effort to see his father so 0:39:38.810 --> 0:39:42.290 Alvin could meet his grandkids, but Rachel counseled John not 0:39:42.410 --> 0:39:45.250 to go. She said that Alvin would refuse to see 0:39:45.330 --> 0:39:47.490 him and was still so full of anger that he 0:39:47.570 --> 0:39:51.370 might even call the police. After his death, Alvin left 0:39:51.370 --> 0:39:53.610 behind a will with a section listing the names of 0:39:53.650 --> 0:39:56.730 those who wronged him. Each person was to receive a 0:39:56.770 --> 0:39:59.850 single dollar. Among them was John. 0:40:01.130 --> 0:40:01.330 Back. 0:40:01.330 --> 0:40:04.010 When I spoke to Al's disciple, Howard, he told me 0:40:04.010 --> 0:40:06.090 that al was bedridden at the end of his life, 0:40:06.490 --> 0:40:09.690 yet he was still focused on his therapeutic method just 0:40:09.770 --> 0:40:10.930 before he passed away. 0:40:11.610 --> 0:40:14.770 When I visited him, he said, Howard, I'm working on 0:40:14.970 --> 0:40:17.770 becoming more of an optimal person. I'm just doing it now. 0:40:17.770 --> 0:40:18.730 And he was like so. 0:40:18.690 --> 0:40:22.730 Energetic, and do you from your perspective, I mean, did 0:40:22.770 --> 0:40:25.489 he achieve that kind of like optimal personhood? 0:40:26.610 --> 0:40:28.009 She said he had. 0:40:29.490 --> 0:40:32.010 When I raised the subject of Alvin's relationship with his 0:40:32.130 --> 0:40:35.450 kids and how that connected to his optimal self, Howard 0:40:35.450 --> 0:40:38.010 says he can't really speak to that. Alvin didn't bring 0:40:38.050 --> 0:40:38.890 up his kids much. 0:40:39.490 --> 0:40:42.890 There's a lot of stuff that goes on, sometimes good 0:40:42.930 --> 0:40:48.410 and bad, and you know, that's just what happens in life. 0:40:48.770 --> 0:40:52.090 We live, and we adjust and do what we have 0:40:52.210 --> 0:40:55.370 to do. But I don't think whatever happens at a 0:40:55.370 --> 0:40:58.850 certain point in someone's life should define them for who 0:40:58.850 --> 0:41:01.970 they are as a person overall. 0:41:05.610 --> 0:41:07.410 Can you come back in a little bit, honey. 0:41:07.970 --> 0:41:11.130 A little girl barge's into Joyce's room. She's wearing a 0:41:11.210 --> 0:41:14.770 lacy blue dress that's either a nightgown or a Cinderella costume. 0:41:15.010 --> 0:41:17.250 I'll be with you in a little bit. Thank you. 0:41:18.410 --> 0:41:19.930 That's my six year old granddaughter. 0:41:20.450 --> 0:41:21.650 Thank you. 0:41:22.890 --> 0:41:24.570 We're sheltering in place together. 0:41:25.010 --> 0:41:27.090 Yeah, that's nice. 0:41:29.330 --> 0:41:36.850 I'm very lucky, Joyce. I'm so appreciative. Thank you, Yeah, 0:41:36.850 --> 0:41:37.210 thank you. 0:41:40.770 --> 0:41:43.250 One can believe one is optimal, just as one can 0:41:43.290 --> 0:41:46.370 believe one is fluent in French, a talented singer, a 0:41:46.410 --> 0:41:49.570 good therapist. But the only way to really know is 0:41:49.610 --> 0:41:52.890 through one's relationship with others, the ones who love us, 0:41:53.250 --> 0:41:56.330 who guide us, who let us know when we wandered astray. 0:41:57.450 --> 0:42:01.290 For some realizing your optimal self does not occur in 0:42:01.330 --> 0:42:06.810 spite of other people, but because of them. 0:42:06.970 --> 0:42:09.530 My son is getting married in the backyard. I'm looking 0:42:09.570 --> 0:42:10.810 at a few. 0:42:10.650 --> 0:42:13.130 Weeks and congratulations, thank you. 0:42:13.370 --> 0:42:42.010 It'll be a very small, socially distanced. 0:42:48.050 --> 0:42:57.569 Now that the furnitures returning to it's goodwill home, now 0:42:57.650 --> 0:43:02.450 that the last month's rent is skiming with the damaged 0:43:02.770 --> 0:43:05.410 po take this moment to the so. 0:43:08.250 --> 0:43:10.210 If we meant to flee. 0:43:09.890 --> 0:43:18.490 To from the last. 0:43:18.090 --> 0:43:19.170 Accident and clean. 0:43:24.250 --> 0:43:27.250 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by senior producer Khalila 0:43:27.290 --> 0:43:31.130 Holt along with Stevie Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein. Special 0:43:31.170 --> 0:43:35.050 thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, PJ Vote, Mohemy mcgaucher, 0:43:35.290 --> 0:43:39.450 Nabil Cholimpot, and Jackie Cohen. Bobby Lord mixed the episode 0:43:39.450 --> 0:43:42.690 with original music by Christine Fellows, John K. Samson and 0:43:42.730 --> 0:43:46.210 Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on our website, 0:43:46.210 --> 0:43:50.130 Gimbletmedia dot com slash Heavyweight. Our theme song is by 0:43:50.170 --> 0:43:53.370 The Weaker Thans courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on 0:43:53.410 --> 0:43:56.770 Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at Heavyweight at Gimletmedia 0:43:56.770 --> 0:43:59.930 dot com. This is the last episode of the season, 0:44:00.330 --> 0:44:02.810 but do not fear there's still more Heavyweight to come. 0:44:03.010 --> 0:44:06.490 We're doing three check in episodes in December, exclusive to Spotify, 0:44:06.730 --> 0:44:10.290 but absolutely free and very easy to access. I'll be 0:44:10.370 --> 0:44:13.050 joined by producers Khalila and Stevie. There will be a 0:44:13.090 --> 0:44:17.050 conversation with best selling writer Curtis Sittenfeld, and some segments 0:44:17.090 --> 0:44:20.210 that take advantage of the music on Spotify's platform. So 0:44:20.330 --> 0:44:22.450 these are things we couldn't do anywhere else, and we're 0:44:22.450 --> 0:44:25.130 pretty excited about that and we hope you'll find it 0:44:25.170 --> 0:44:27.370 exciting too. See you in December. 0:44:28.530 --> 0:44:35.330 Oh Son in an empty, Son in an out deal