How to Do Nothing with Celeste Headlee

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode one hundred and fifty two. I'll be interviewing Celeste Hedley in the body of this episode. She's the author of a great new book called Do Nothing. You'll find out a little more about that later in this episode, but one of my favorite lines from her book is that idleness is not laziness, that there is a distinction between the two. And so, Sarah, I'm curious, what are your favorite forms of idleness? Not laziness, but don't Sarah doesn't do laziness, But what are your favorite forms of idleness? Okay, first of all, I take issue with the idea that I do not do laziness sometimes. I think everyone does laziness sometimes right when you're tired, and you know, part of being very go go go a lot of the time means that there may be a lazy backlash sometimes and I'm okay with that. So okay, I did send you a lovely list. I will just go through that Number one, reading on the couch with a blanket and treat ideally that somehow adds to the idleness if I really you know, not just those few pages snuck in while the kids are playing, but like, let's say the kids are watching a movie or fully occupied, and I'm just like, this is my time and just like lean into it. Number two probably should be number one, because it's the best naps. Naps. Naps are good, particularly on the weekends. A lot of times I will still get up early to do my workout, but knowing in my head that when Genevieve takes a nap, I will also take a nap. So that's how I can stay up a little bit later on the weekends but still kind of get my morning routine in. So I really enjoy naps. Currently, I'm in love with playing with my new bullet journal. And it's like totally coloring and way more neat and elaborate than it needs to be. And I recognize that, Like if I were kidding myself to say that you needed to have a journal that looked like this to live a functional life, it would be ridiculous. But it's totally relaxing. So I actually count that as idleness. When I'm sitting there just coloring in squares and making little trackers, and I'm using myself with that, there's like sort of the more social kinds of idleness, like just drinking wine with Josh in the evenings if the kids are otherwise occupied, or perhaps back in the day when you could actually like hang out with friends those days. Yes, And then I did write my favorite alone idle afternoon on a vacation, which actually happened in Mark right before everything happened. Was we were in Amelia Island and I was with Josh on a work trip, his work trip, not my work trip, so I didn't have anything to do, and I went and got a massage and then walked down the little cute little square and got ice cream and then went and read in my hotel room. And that was probably like one of the top afternoons that I've had in a long time. Sounds great. Yeah, what about you? Well, yeah, I like to lie on my back porch on We have a couch back there that's under the cover on you know, so a seat on the porch and it's you can see the backyard. Even if it's raining. You can be out there, lie there and read. Ideally with some sort of nice beverage in the morning, it'd be coffee, evening wine or beer. So that's probably my favorite, although I have been on occasion soaking in our tub. So we did a master bathroom renovation two years ago, put a new tub in, among other things that it's definitely a nice tub, and I wanted to experience it and not just have it sit there. So because it's there, I'm like, okay, I got to use it. So I will sit in there and read and again have a have a glass of something. The one issue with this is that a lot of my reading material is currently on my phone because you know, I borrow ebooks from the library or buy ebooks. Since there's no real good way to you know, go get books from the library. I'm like petrified I'm gonna drop the phone in the bathtub with me. And then isn't your phone waterproof? Is it? I've lost the phone in the past. What is your phone? What is your current phone? I phone, like, you know whatever, the year and a half ago one. That's probably any of the any of the ones that have like no real headphone jab where it goes. You could actually drop that in the pool and be Now nobody's allowed to like assue me if I would say, everyone, go drop your phone to the pol I am not an electronics issue, but you may want to look that up because maybe your fear is actually unfounded. All right, Well, then I don't have to like hold it way over to the side while I'm trying to read. Yeah, so that's what I do. How's life going in general? You know as we are? Yeah, you know, it's funny because we've recorded the last few weeks ahead of time, so I felt kind of bad because stuff was happening, and I'm like, wow, we didn't really talk about any of that stuff. But this is one of those rare episodes where everyone's going to get to listen to it just a couple of days after we're talking, so this should be up to date. Must something crazy happens. You know, life is okay, Like still feeling pretty personally lucky about our situation that everyone's staying healthy, that we're both able to still work. I am on kind of like still this permanent mini furlough kind of a thing, although my husband's like, it's not because you're getting paid. So they're just having us use one paid time off day every paid period, so you came off. Keep banking them, correct, because our institution actually pays you for those, so I think they don't want people to like get a big bonus basically if there is not as much work to do, which I don't know how true that actually is. But it's working out fine actually right now, and I've sort of leaned into it a little bit. So I'm off every single week, kids are doing school. We can talk more about that on a future episode. I don't know. I'm just like very very day by day, like each day, focus on my little routines, focus on what's going well. And it's been okay. We are in a surge though, like in Florida, so that's fun. Yeah, yeah, well it'll hopefully go down. I mean, what can we say, eventually someday, someday it has to go down, and you're right, one way or the other is going to go down. So I yeah, I'd like to think we're past it. We had our surge early, you know, with the whole Northeast, and now we've gone way down. I mean the number of total positive tests in Pennsylvania has been hovering about five hundred. That's fantastic. Yeah, so, I mean we had a lot more than that through March and aprilay our daily county positives has been around five hundred. Yeah, the state is more like five thousand right now. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. This is so unpredictable, and it's silly because this is a podcast. So we're only going to look foolish by like trying to predict the future. I mean, you could be surging in three weeks and be like, hah, that was funny. But you know what. Day by day today, Okay, we're healthy, good and hopefully you are too. Listening to this, all right, well let's hear from Celeste. Well, Celestie, thank you so much for joining us and for being very patient with my technological challenges. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners. Sure, I'm Celeste Hedley, I have been a journalist and anchor with National Public Radio for more than twenty years. I have two books, first one called We Need to Talk, and the most recent one is Do Nothing, How to break away from overworking, overdoing, and underliving, which sounds like we all need to do and we will definitely talk about that during this episode. You know, you had been building your career in public radio and sort of going along day to day. Was it twenty fifteen? You gave a talk? Right? Tell us about that? I gave it a TEDx talk that frankly, I did not think anyone would find interesting except me. I mean just honestly, because when you talk about conversation, people's eyes glaze over. You know, it's one of those soft skills that when you get called into communication training at work, you're like, oh my god. I did not think it would spark any interest, but I was interested in it. And then it went super viral. I mean, I think it's like nineteen million views or something, which was a shock. So my life has changed since twenty fifteen mostly because because of that. Well, what do you think people found so interesting about it that they wanted to, you know, listen to it. And then also share it with friends. I don't know that I have an answer for that. I will say that I find it encouraging that so that many people have viewed it. I think it means that that people are recognizing that there's a problem, and that they're google They're putting in a Google search of how do I have better conversations and then my ted talk comes up right like, so, I think that's a good thing. It means that people recognize something's going wrong. Why it went viral because there's a ton of great talks and other things out there resources on conversation. I don't really know the jokes. You're just a particularly wonderful person to watch give this speech and so's But so after you're doing this, you're you're invited to speak everywhere. You know, lots of stuff going on with that and and so so how did that go? I mean, how did that change how your life went? Well? At first, I was trying to make it change my life as little as possible, Like I assumed all of this was going to be a flash in the pan, and I would have a year or two of getting good speaking gigs that I'd go back to my regular job as a journalist. So I basically tried to just fit in all of those speeches into my regular workdays, you know, and I just take my vacation day and fly out to Houston and give a talk and come back the next day and go back to work. But it wasn't a flash in the pan. It eventually, it just it got so busy with talks I had to I couldn't do the full time job anymore. So I quit my job. I became self employed. I thought that would make me less busy. Those of us are our self employed are sort of laughing exactly right now. Yes, yes, you guys could have warned me. That did not work out as intended. And I kind of reached this crisis of the soul in late twenty seventeen when I just realized, you know something, something's got to give. And that's where the research for the most current book started. And the book for our listeners again is called Do Nothing. How to Break Away from overworking, overdoing, and underliving. And you talk about it in this that you know, you thought that making more money was going to help you enjoy life more and have time for these things that you had not been able to do in the past when you're in your working paycheck to paycheck. But it turns out there's possibly even the reverse of that. And you talk about how the more money you make, the more you feel like you have no time to waste. What's going on there? Yeah, I mean, first of all, there was a few things going on. Number one, it's that the offers would get better. The more offers I turned down, the higher the prices went. So then it would reach this point where you're like, well, I can't turn down amount of money, Like how dumb am I that they're going to pay me that much to give one speech? Right, so then you don't turn them down. There's that. I mean obviously, as you start to make more money, it then requires more management, right, You then need more help. Then you need a brand manager and a PR rep and all this other staff, and then the management of that staff becomes right, so then you're not an LLC anymore. I mean you're not even just a business declared business. Then you're the LLC. And then LLC isn't kind of cut it anymore. Then you need to become an escort and it just escalates. And believe me, I'm not whining over oh poor me, I'm making so much money, more money. It's just that my whole life, having been broke, I was a public radio reporter and part time opera singer. Okay, I was broken. Neither of those are known as exactly am High I might mention that too. Yes, so having been broke my whole life I had just I had all these ideas about what it would look like, what my life would look like when I had enough money, and I thought I would have time, you know, I thought I would learn to play the guitar and travel to New YORKA and visit all my friends at least once a year. Right. I had all these plans, and none of that came true, none of it. I had less time than I had before. Yeah, And so unless your friend is in Houston as you're giving the speech, exactly, it is just kind of out of luck there. And you talk about how some of this is historic too, that you know, people worked obviously very hard in the past, and you talk about your relations and family tree. You come from a long line of hard workers, and people want to google Celestis extended Family if you want to learn more about that. But the Sideline music people, but they still had some time for these leisure pursuits. So what was going on with that? Yeah, I mean it's incredible. Right. There was one day when I came home from work and I was just exhausted, and I flopped down on the couch and I was like, I looked toward my kitchen. I thought, there is no way I am making a meal from scratch to night. I do not have it in me. And I just happened to let my gaze rest on my microwave, and I just started realizing, you know, my grandmother and great grandmother, they did not have a microwave. Oh, and they probably didn't have that dishwasher or that instinct disposal or that robot vacuum in the corner or And I started going around my house adding up all of the things that I owned that saved me time, because you're right. My grandmother she belonged to the Rotary Club and the Lions Club, and they had you know, they'd go on a vacation and then they invite all the neighbors over to look at their slides, and they did card They played card games on Friday nights. And she jarred all of her own fruit and pickles and made her own jam and all these other things that they did, and I started thinking, how did she have the time. And then if you go back to my great grandmother getting ice in blocks from an iceman that came by, you know, so she could slide it into a wooden box to try and keep her food fresh. I just began to really wonder where is my time going? Right? I really should have a lot more time. I mean, and frankly you haven't mentioned it yet, but I quote you in this book, and I refer to your book because this is exactly the field that you're working in. Is this idea that we're it's a true feeling, this feeling that we're overwhelmed. It is true, but it's not based on reality, if that makes sense. We really do feel overwhelmed, and there's good reason for us to feel that way, but it's not actually based on our being too busy. We have more free time than we think. So Celeste sites, yes, she said for our listeners, some of my research and other people pointing out that, yeah, we may not be quite as busy as we think. And you know, so we have this feeling, and yet you've tracked your time, and you know there is some time there. I mean, you're obviously a very busy person, but there's there's some time there? Is it that because there are competing things? Is because our phones? I mean there's options for all these minutes. I mean, what leads to this gap between perception and reality? You know, there's a lot of different factors, but I can mention the few biggest ones. Number one is that we're living in a distracted society. Right. Psychologists say, we have this constant absent presence, meaning that we're here, but we're not actually mentally here. We're constantly distracted, and that takes a real toll on your brain. That the attempts to multitask, which again the human being can't multitask, but the a to multitask will wear you out mentally and actually physically. So every time you get that shot of dopamine, for example, when you open your Facebook feed or your Instagram feed, every time you check your email and you get that tiny little shot of dopamine, it makes you feel more productive, but it actually is not accomplishing more for you, and yet it's wearing you out. If you're getting that dopamine shot all day long, you will end up being exhausted by the end of the day. The other thing is that we're not taking actual breaks. So most people they'll get like ten or fifteen minutes, and what do they do. They wander into the breakroom or something, and they'll be scanning through their phone the whole time. But your brain does not distinguish between shopping for boots on Zappos and an actual work You may think there's a distinction, but your brain and body certainly don't. So as far as your brain and body are concerned, you are still working. And so therefore, if you spend your entire day staring at these screens that are overloading your brain circuits, yes you will feel more tired by the end of the day, but you probably haven't accomplished more. And there's an interesting gender dimension to this that you write about as well, that men may be more likely to take an actual break during the work day, and women may be more likely to use what would have been a break to do some household or personal task that they're trying to get ahead on. So what's going on with that? I mean, there's a few reasons for that. Number One, we simply have more to do. I mean, we are required in almost every household to be the administrator of the household, and at work, we're way more likely to be required to be the administrator at work even if we're not in that position. In other words, we're the one that needs to keep track of whether this is what is the good coffee that everybody likes? Right? Who? When is everybody's birthday? And what are we doing for that birthday? And who's going to go buy the card and then pass it around the entire office so everybody signs. Oh wait, who's going to note that the CEO didn't sign and then walk it up to probably his office and get his signature. So, yes, we have more to do. But also we have been you know, the Silent Revolution when women flooded into workplaces was what the nineteen seventies, So we really haven't been in workplaces office spaces for really all that long, and we are still called upon to justify our presence there and prove that we deserve it and prove that we earned it. So there's this extra pressure on us that's real in that, yes, you have to really achieve to get ahead as a female, whereas that's not always the case with men. I'm not talking about race here, I'm just talking about gender. And then there's also our perception that we have that we need to constantly prove that we're hard workers. Yeah, there's a lot of that going on. We're good, productive people, you know that. But you know, one thing you talk about is that one way to feel less busy is to take up a hobby, hobby that requires a lot of time. Now, this seems like could be a bit of a paradox here, because here I'm feeling so busy and Celeste is telling me, no, go take up woodworking or something along those lines. So why is that going to make me feel less busy? Oftentimes hobbies that take a lot of time are slow, right, woodworking is slow, and so just forcing yourself to slow down like that that has shown to reap a huge amount of benefits every time that they've studied it. When they force people to slow down, it actually lowers your heart rate. I mean, that makes perfect sense when you hear it, but we don't think about it that way. It lowers your cortisol levels, which is your stress hormone, and when you are even think that you are rushed for time, it has a bunch of negative effects. Even if you're not rushed for time, but you believe that you are are it's going to have negative impacts on your decision making because you're Amigdala takes over right your fight or flight brain, which means you probably will make worse decisions, which means there's going to be more errors, and it becomes this repeating cycle. So taking up a hobby that takes a lot of time breaks you out of that cycle. It takes you off the treadmill. And oftentimes a hobby that takes a lot of time is one that you're not going to be great at when you start it, and I totally support that. I want everyone to take up something that they suck at at first, because this idea that everything that you do has to be you have to be great at it. It It has to be pinterest worthy, and you know, you have to be able to photograph it and put it on Instagram or else you're gonna end up on that show nailed it, so they can make fun of you. Like it is okay to suck at something at first. Some of the most valuable skills there are are hard to learn. I see a music stand in the background, so you probably know what I'm talking about. Yea, we're into music over here. I'm trying to teach my children that that you are not good or bad at it, you just haven't spent much time on it. Yep, yeah, exactly. If you do, you will in fact get better. So I think some people, you know, the title of your book is do nothing, Yeah, which maybe a lot of people may have a slightly negative reaction to that idea, like what, I'm supposed to do nothing? How could I do nothing? But what's the difference between idleness and laziness? Because you are, not, in fact advocating laziness, And anyone who knows Celeste or her career knows that there's not a whole lot of laziness involved in this. So what is the difference between idleness and laziness? And I find that ironic even with myself, that when I very first began to consider idleness, I also immediately connected it to laziness. They're not the same thing. Laziness is the is the resistance to doing anything right. It's the it's the resistance to doing work. Idleness it just means that you're not active, physically active at them time. Your brain is always active so we're never talking about mental inactivity, but you know it's not. Being idle is not the same as not working. For example, right, a fisherman is idle while they're working, and possibly active when they're not working. So we have to decouple this idea of idleness and activity from work. They're not the same. And the reason I say that you have to decouple them is because if you think that idleness is the same as laziness, it's going to give you feelings of guilt whenever you stop being active. And I want to make everyone free from guilt because of inactivity. I want people to be able to sit on their front porch for a half hour and just sit and watch the world go by and feel zero guilt about that, because, oddly enough, that time that you spend sitting on your front porch watching birds is very productive time. Because what's going on in your brain then? And why does your brain need that? Got? Right? Because the human brain, it doesn't persistent pulses. It pulses between activity and idleness at leisure, I should say, and your brain, a human brain needs to be able to not be directed in order to be creative and innovative. Right, So we have two. I'm going to very much dumbed down neuroscience here, but you know, there's, in essence, there's kind of two forms of thinking. Right, there's your analytical brain and there's your insightful brain and your analytical brain. If you're thinking, okay, if I drive the speed limit of sixty five miles an hour, how long is it going to take me to get into my parents' house for Thanksgiving? That's an analytical brain problem. Obviously, there's a persistent history of racism and discrimination in our society. How do we solve that at my own company? That is an insightful brain problem. And if you bring your analytical brain to it, you're gonna end up making some of the good proofs and gaffs and horrible mistakes that people have made in the past, which means you have to allow your brain to click into its deep thinking. You have to let it go into default thinking mode. Default meet thinking mode only occurs when the brain is not directed. So if you're sitting there folding laundry, it's a good chance that as long as you're not trying to multitask, and you're also listening to a historic podcast or also on a conference call. Your brain will start to wander, It will start to sift through the memories and information that you've taken in recently. It will begin to make unexpected connections because you're not forcing it to focus on a task, and so it's just gonna the librarian is just going to wander through the stacks and sort of pull books out at random and come up with new ideas and new innovations and creative thoughts. And we need that, Like literally, that kind of creative thought is one of the things that distinguish Homo sapiens from other species. Like that's literally part of our humanity. And yet, at this point in time, when we're not allowing ourselves to ever be unfocused, when we require ourselves to be working on something productive and efficient, something we can check off our checklist at all times, to my mind, losing some of our humanity because we're losing some of the best thought we have. So what do you like to do when you're being idle and get your good thoughts? I mean there's lots of things I like to do. I do embroidery, to cross stitch, which requires I have adult add So I need to like something that's very sort of requires a lot of focus because that'll switch take It requires a whole half of my brain and then the other half gets to wander around and have a good time. So I really like to do embroidery. I like to do I've been learning lettering. Yeah, lettering where you get the little practice books and yeah, is that like calligraphears that? Yeah, although yes, I mean in essence, but there's other you know, lettering also refers to like block letters, and you know, you know all the kinds of pretty lettering that I like too, graphic fun. I never claim to not be a nerd. Look and I and I those of us who spend our lives reading research studies. Laura, come on you, we're trying to dort. So I like opera too, I'll confess as well. So so there you go. And I grow my own plants, and you know it takes me a cup. I have so many plans it takes me a couple hours to water them on all and tend to them all every Saturday. And you know I have a I don't know if you can see that. I'm getting a video tour here for our listeners. I'm getting a video my mosque garden. Oh nice, nice. Yeah, So you know, stuff that is time consuming but pulls my focus and yet allows my mind to wander. So that's our takeaway from this episode, Listeners, is that you need a moss garden and it will change your life. Right selest clean your air, also clean your air also also good. So Sarah and I tend to like to do a love of the week, which is something that is fun for us that we're enjoying this week. It could be your moss garden, it could be something else along those lines. What's really exciting for you right now? What's really exciting for me right now? Actually? I found like my perfect breakfast. I don't know if this, I don't know if this counts, but I found this recipe which is like one chicken apple sausage link and then you sawte it with a cut up half of a cut up granny apple Granny Smith apple, and then you toss in some cooked sweet potato and like a teaspoon of thyme, and you just sawte it all up and it is like the best breakfast I've ever had. It is phenomenal. I will have to try that. I'm sure it's the teaspoon of time. That's like and I want to call something a teaspoon of time, but with a different spelling of time, that would be that would be great. So I'll say mine is that we're going strawberry picking. I was worried we would not be able to this. This is airing in late June, so the strawberry season will be over, but we're recording in early June. We still have you know, we had to stay at home order through much of strawberry season, but it was lifted in time to still go do it. So very excited something my kids always very picking. Yeah do you cook? Do you just eat the strawberries raw or do you put them in things? Both? Usually we have a lot of children, so there's a lot of strawberries that usually come home from these expeditions, so there's enough to eat. And then you know, we tend to make strawberry shortcake and you know, I probably most of them get eaten in that form. U. But there's been strawberry syrup. The kids learned to cook down to make a strawberry syrup. That was That was kind of that's a great consuming hobby. Yeah, it is a time consuming hobby. If we're all about trying to fill time right now? Which you are you still quarantined with your son? Or is that he went home at at home two and a half weeks ago? He has been again, we're recording in early June. He has been protesting in Atlanta. So yeah, he went home, and I am an empty nester for just a little bit longer before my house guest comes back. And I know you're not there, so I hate to praise my time spent alone in the house too much. I don't want to do that to you. But alway, is it nice? Yeah? Yeah, you know he's off doing good things, so it's all good, All good, Yeah, all right, well, Celas, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. All right, Well, that was a fun interview, and so now to cue the question part of this episode, shall I read it Sarah? Okay, there, go for it. All right? So this, well this was sentenced to Sarah. But can you speak to giving feedback to household employees such as nanny's and housekeepers. I find this is difficult because these people are involved in such personal parts of our lives. This particular reader or listener was a two physician household with three kids, one of him has special needs, and so they need quite a bit of help in their lives, and she says she feels grateful obviously for the help. On the other hand, feels resentful because she's paying a lot of money and if things aren't going as she'd like them to go, then she's not happy. In this case, she says it may be difficult for her personality as she tends to avoid conflict. So any suggestions, So, I think it's, first of all, I think you're right to think about this, and I don't think avoiding is a viable permanent solution because the things that are going to go on in your house are going to affect your life on a very daily basis. So I do think that kind of like gritting your teeth and bearing it is probably not the right answer, although not knowing exactly what you're focusing on is it is hard to know. I would say. I mean, we definitely provide feedback, but you have to also make sure that you are a being realistic and be showing appreciation for what that person probably is doing for you. So even if there are a few things that are not going perfectly. There are probably many things that are going well, and I do think sometimes we don't take enough time to tell people when things are going well. So make sure when you do sit down with them, talk about all the things that are working about the relationship. I mean, obviously there's some things because the person's still here. And then maybe kind of instead of saying this isn't working, delve into how it's affecting you, say like, this is something that I've been noticing that's bothering me. What do you think about this? And that way, instead of being like I need you to do X, Y and Z because there may be a reason why they can't, you're kind of inviting a conversation about the area where there is some difficulty and like kind of ask for their input on whether it might be realistic to make a change, because again I have like this is hard because I don't know the specifics, and that's okay. I understand why you wouldn't want to share them. But for example, I've heard of some people getting frustrated with OU pairs getting burned out when they're caring for kids at home all day by themselves or something, and it's like, well, that is really hard, like you know, so you do have to just stop and make sure that what you are asking is realistic, like would you be able to do that? Yeah, no, that's a that's a good point. But I think one of the things you know, you said, sit down to talk about stuff. I mean, one of the things I have taken away from management writing over the years is that as much as possible, if things are only in a sit down conversation, it becomes this source of anxiety for both parties, like, oh my god, why do I have to sit down with my boss on Thursday? Like what does she want to know? And so as much as it can just be normalized like that, you know, feedback is feedback, like we're going to talk about everything, then then any given bit of it is not that fraud a situation. And so if you haven't been in that habit, and it kind of sounds like she hasn't, then you probably want to start with good stuff like just for a week, like make sure you say three things every day that you liked, you know, that was great, like and just you know, as you're having these conversations, do that and then you know, once that's become a habit, then you can start working in stuff that like, oh, do you think you could try this? Or you know, I've had this issue, I wonder what you could do about it? And then let as Sarah said, inviting a conversation. So it's it's that it becomes more normalized and it's not such a big deal because it shouldn't be a big deal. I mean, that's part of you know. I mean, this person is a physician. I'm sure if you know she was doing a procedure with a physician assistant and something seemed a little off, she'd probably mention it. It It wouldn't be a big deal. They'd work together to fix it. Like I mean, it's it can be the exact same thing. Love it all right, I'm pretty sure that Celeste and I did a Love of the Week. I mean, maybe I'll listen to this and be like, whoa wait, we didn't, but Sarah, what's yours? Since I was not in that conversation and I cannot wait to listen to it. By the way, I will add my Level of a Week, which is my new Archer and Olive notebook that I'm using is a bullet journal that I mentioned in the opener because I love that thing awesome. All right, well, this has been Best of Both Worlds Episode one point fifty two. I've been interviewing Celeste Headley about her new book, Do Nothing, and we will be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.