MJ’s Mentor of 40 Years Reveals Jordan’s Untold Nike Story

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Welcome back to All the Smoke Unplugged. We had a special interview today with the one and only Howard White, the man behind a lot of stuff with Nike. I hope you guys enjoyed this interview as much as I did. We got a special one today. Man. Some call him the godfather of Jordan Brand. That is someone who's been very, very instrumental behind the scenes. I personally haven't seen him talk too much, so I'm excited I get a chance to sit down and pick his brain for a little bit today. Welcome to the show, Howard White.

00:00:42
Speaker 2: Jack. Appreciate you for you got Jack in.

00:00:45
Speaker 1: Atlanta, Jackson Atlanta. I'm here right here, We're here.

00:00:49
Speaker 2: But I'm gonna say to both of you all how much I appreciate that giving me a small amount of your attack.

00:00:58
Speaker 1: No, thank you, we for amount of your time. You're a very important busy man.

00:01:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope that.

00:01:06
Speaker 1: So nineteen seventy eight, been with nineteen since nineteen seventy eight. Join the company as a marketing representative. Currently sit on vice president of Jordan Brand. Let's get into the story of how this all started.

00:01:21
Speaker 2: You know, well, they fudged a little bit because I actually was eighty two. Well, I wish I was there in seventy eight exactly eighty two when that started. And you know how did this start? It probably couldn't happen today. To tell you how it started, I have to go back to who that young guy is, the young person that, as I'm told, born in Hampton, Virginia, born premature, early premature, can't breathe, heavy ass mother. So you were think in nineteen fifty that may be a death wish. Some kind of way I've pulled through. Maybe I had a praying mother who believed in me. Also the lessons that she's talking. And I tell you that because that's how I've become who I am. We walked by the old man in my neighborhood, mister Lee heavy Limb. She spoke, Hey, Lee, how you doing today? How miss lel how you you have a great day? You hear now down south, that's what people do. Howard was throwing rocks at the stop side because they told me, if you can hit the zero dead in the middle, Kyle jumps over the moon stars running around the sky. You see, mister Leef fifty times a day. What's the big deal? When we passed them. She stopped me. She said, and you let that be the last time in your life you ever passed by someone and not open your mouth to speak, because even a dog can wag its tail when it passes you on the street. She only said that twice in my lifetime. The second time she was in the hospital. I was in Denver traveling and I called her. I was writing a book, Believe to Achieve, to see the invisible and do the impossible. I said, Mama, what would you learn to your grandchildren, their children in the world. What would you like them to know about you? She said, I would like them to know I know how to treat people, because even the dog can wag his tail when it passes you on the street. That little few words carried me through life. I told you, at this time, I am at that time, I'm in the eighth grade, seventy eighth grade, so you know, twelve thirteen right in there.

00:04:22
Speaker 1: And we go.

00:04:23
Speaker 2: Down and remember going to the all white school. To my knowledge that no kids in the gym. It's not a good place to be. Ain't no kids in here? Three men, three white men, We don't need to be in here. We should leave. One man says, would you kids like to play a game? We can beat them. They old people. They shouldn't even be out on the court. Well, guess what we played them. They changed the rules. You know wherever I played, when I did, you get the ball? You put the ball back? Whoever got the ball, They invented new rules. You got to take the ball back behind the line.

00:05:04
Speaker 1: Son.

00:05:05
Speaker 2: When they changed no, son, you gotta take the ball. No son. The whole game was no son, take the ball somewhere else. They beat us to death. I'm walking off, head down, stop when you could drink out of water fountains, got a sip of water? Man walks up. How you doing? Son? My name is Jim Hathaway. I'm the coach of Kickatane High School. You ever heard of the big o' Oscar Robinson. Yeah, that's like asking somebody if they heard of Kobe or Michael of Lebron. Of course, he said, if you listen to me, you could be just like the big old he's lying. I can't even play basketball. I was dumb and en off to go home. I went in the woods and cut some trees down, came out dug holes in the dirt because it's only like a quasi farm. Winning found soda bottles in the ditches along the road, cash them in, went to Weston order. I bought me a basketball and the gold nailed it up. I shot a lot of basketball. So as you start progressing, you started believing more. I looked in this elastic magazine. You got a better chance of going to college if you're a class officer. Nobody in my family ever been in the college. So I asked one of my coaches. A guy was out and said, coach, do you have a better chance to go into college as you're a class officer? That could be could be? Holler, why would you want to run for class office? Said? Thanks? Said, if you class office, you got a good chance to go to college. Maybe what would you run for?

00:07:10
Speaker 1: It?

00:07:10
Speaker 2: Didn't say secretary treasured? I don't know. You should let me ask you something. Yes, sir, can you tell me who the salutatorian is at Kikatan High School? No, maybe that was too hard. How about the valedictorian smartest person in school? I said, I can't tell you that either, So I guess I can't run for offices. Maybe you're going too fast. They can tell me who you are some people don't know me, he said, I guarantee you they know. I said, that's crazy. He said, run for class president. That way you can tell the secretary and the treasure of what to do. I said, that's brilliant. Why didn't I think of that? I become class president of the school at five forty five hundred in ten are all white? The one friend we still friends today? He said, simply one thing. How they want enough black people at Kickitan and fit in the telephone booth. They didn't vote you as president. We all did. How you choose to see the world, and that's where we get into man. How you choose to see the world actually can direct your life flight path in the world. And when I got to college, only one letter on the back of my uniform h in quotations. So when you look at the lens of the world, you start growth. Because what most people miss is this, They're looking at a window that is so narrow that they can't ever see what's on either side. These people kept opening up my window. I got hurt my senior year high school because they tell me in the newspaper said he can't jump. He can jump to the ceiling screw the light bulbs out before he comes down after one knee operation heavy one because they ain't know what they just cut you over and take some stuff out. Throw this away, throw that away, so this stuff.

00:09:39
Speaker 1: Then do you know what injury you had?

00:09:41
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it was mc l so they didn't know and there was no rehab. They put you in the cast for about two months. You get out. I'm like, I'm good, but actually they wrapped you so much tab up that you really couldn't move. I was still pretty good. By my senior year, I got hurt again. Hurt the other nee just won the n T Championship. We think we pay, we can go on, we can win the NC two ways. We're good. After I got hurt again, I was like, this ain't fun. Said, well, they gonna draft you. They gonna do this thing fun. John Lucas Luke had just come in as a freshman All American and tennis All American in basketball. He was the person that took my place. So I committed that I would help him be the best he could be. Number one guy picked in the draft still played some World Team tennis. That was the person that after he had been in the league and doing it every time he would come back. That would help me. Hey, let's get together, let's play tennis, let's do this. That was the person that told me there is this great job at Nike, this nineteen eighty one. What's Nike? He said, you would love it? Yeah, what is it? He said? Tell him theay of his why he wouldn't need he would love it. So he told me. The guy's name that was going with his sister was Kenny White. You ever looked in the phone booked and try and find a Kenny White? Was k White? Ken White? Kenneth White? You can't find the first the phone book because you all not familiar White Pages? Remember that resident yellow Pages business? I'm looking into? Where is it? Kenny? Oh Jesus Christ. It was one k H E. N I. White. I said, that's the guy. I know. It's the guy. I called him number. He said, oh yeah, yeah, I heard about you. I know about you. They give me a going away partly, why don't you just stop by?

00:12:12
Speaker 1: Cool?

00:12:13
Speaker 2: We talked some of your resume. Okay, he get back in the couple. He said, well they're going in a different direction, so that no job, no more is okay. A couple of months later, when can you start? Wow? After I played, I became a coach at Maryland, working with the guys who comes out of high school. They say, well, can you recruit him? He from Petersburg, Big Moses, Big Moses, Malone. Moses average thirty five, twenty five boys and twelve block shots that game. We became extremely close. His moms. We became really me and married. We were close. First time I recruited, I went down there Moses. That was people see Moses. There's mos grown coaches running out of the hotel. I'm like, these people are crazy. So I go to the house. Mary answered the door. I said, it's Moses. He is He said no, no, he's not here. I said okay. I said, well, well come on in, come on in. So I go in. We sit down. She just come back from work. We sit there back then looking at her stories. Edge of night, one of them. Next thing, Me and Mary sleep on the couch. I'm asleep, she sleep wake up an hour.

00:13:43
Speaker 1: Oh oh.

00:13:43
Speaker 2: I said no, no, no, that's okay. We're fine. I'm gonna tell she called them tiny. I'm gonna tell Tiny you came by. I said, okay, I would go by Syo he not, I tell him you came. And eventually when we were when we became like this, I mean, Mo visited every college on the planet. We would go to dinner. He said, no, no, no, how against the rules, you can't buy that most I was a stack of money, but I got it.

00:14:12
Speaker 1: As a high school kid before.

00:14:16
Speaker 2: And so we really became close. He came signed up Maryland got drafted by the Utah Stars. At the time we went down, that was leave interest in them. He came out, he said, Howard, I wrote down and put in my Bible. I wanted to be the first player to go from high school to the pros. I think if I don't do this, God will punish me because this was a promise to him. Well, you can't break promises to God. Will go. When I got the Nike first person that was dead Moses Malone. And that was when they were on that run. You know, he come to Philly dog Boom Magical MVP four and I mean we were friends all the way up until he passed. But then other people, then the boxleist MJ's and all of these people started coming. There was one thing in common Moses and Mary MJ. Mama J Charles, Granny Tiger Tita See, mothers played a special part in my world. That was the lens that I tended to see everything through. And as Nike kept growing and moving forward, at some point one I realize maybe God didn't want me to play basketball. That's why I kept getting to hurt. I need to listen the other skill sets. Even a dog can wag its tail when it passes you on the street. So really, when you start paying attention to what you are, we often as people see this as as humans. They're animals to control most of the universe. Remember MJ was Black Cat. But in retrospect, what you have to see is this, And people don't understand the ocean waters about three quarters of the whole earth. Isn't it funny that humans are three quarters of the whole earth, three quarters of the whole earth, the whole body. I'm gonna tell you one play because you said it the mental fatigue, and that said, you know what happens. How about when you can put that all in one you said, boy, they be strong. I'm gonna take one play and pull it right to mind. Let's go Last Championship Utah. Remember Karl Malone goes down, low, comes across, he gets the ball. Been doing it all game. So I asked him, Now he was doing that all game, why didn't you do anything? Didn't need it? Then I said, so you formulated that you did not need it. Yes, So I often think of MJ as a whale. You know, whales are dominant. And when you look at this massive creature, that grace, they look how much of the ocean. These are stories of people. They can go down, dive out their whales that live two hundred years, the sperm whale. If you go back to I don't know how much kids reading the day, but Moby Dick the intelligence that he had. But there is but one animal that controls the outcome of the sea. That's the walker. They travel in parts. It's the eldest, who is a female. She's the leader. She knows where they hunt, she knows how to feed, she knows how the water because she's been doing this for years and years. So I believe he became an orca. The intelligence quotion, not just the physical. They take down what they take down anything, And I often say just this, if you interview the orca, could it tell you why? What it would say? Is I am Orca. This is what we do and it's been taught from generation to generation to generation. They teach their young the brilliance of you can have a seal on ice. They teach him how to use the dorsal fins to flip it off with their tail. They put it back. They don't eat, They put it back so the young youngst us can do it, teaching them this is what we do. They have cultures. Each part does things a different way, but they teach that well. M Jason can probably school whenever he wanted to, and he had that type of ability. It's the Orca mj that knows how to orchestrate a strike. When he became Orca against what championships started.

00:20:31
Speaker 1: Flowing in.

00:20:34
Speaker 2: Therein is the mental aspect of how you see the world. So I think that we all have a almost a magical guy. Most people just don't know it. You want to see the world the albatross, They can travel thousands of miles over the sea out ever landing. Think of what they see. The wise our hunt at night not fast.

00:21:12
Speaker 1: Smart.

00:21:15
Speaker 2: So when I see the world, the universe, I just don't look at it one dimensionally. And as I rose up in Nike. It was one person, feel Knight, who made me a believer. We were at the first Nike town. I'll never forget it, first one it opened in Portland. We went, we looked around, we saw everything. At the end, I said, what we doing helps? What's me like shoes selling? He said, what you see? I said, A lot of shoes, a lot of clothes, a lot of We guess all of that, he said, And if that's what we're selling, we're already out of business. We are selling an idea of what someone could become. Take it away, the outcome of a shoe or this seal, No, the outcome of what someone could become by believing in something bigger than them. I would take Michael or mister Knight. I would take him to Michael every quarter. So, MJ, I want you to sit down with a multi multi, multi billionaire just to see how they think. Yeah, you're doing okay on it, but I want you to sit with a multi multi multi billionaire to see how they think. See that starts turning the table of how you see the world. So I think that. As I rose up, I kept going, you know, when you get pretty good at something, I mentioned to you about the movie about Dragonfly. They are hunted relentlessly. There was an FBI investigation. All of a sudden, I was a spy, so had to go through that whole investigation. Cool. And when you do that either it takes a little from you what gives you something. And for me, fortunately I was pretty good in college and high school. Actually very good. They say I just played. But I remember one school. All of these schools recruited me, and one school said, guy, so don't if you come here, we're gonna pay you this money. We're gonna build this arena. This to be the arena that I would white built. Here the blueprints put money for your clothes. You got all the clothes. We're gonna pay sports writers to write about nothing, but you make sure you make all Americans. We're gonna do this for your boom. And if you don't make the executive for life at my company. I didn't do that, but he called back later and said, we looked at the books and we can double it. I still didn't do it. And when I got hurt, all the boys said, well, you blew it. Yep, you miss the nice guy. You blew it. Of course, they wouldn't say that to day when the FBI thing came along, mister Knighte said, I understand if you don't want to be here any longer, you can take the biggest seferance in the history of mankind. That's if you asked me to come here to help you build something we haven't finished yet. There's such a thing in life as who are you? What do you believe in? Because I'm working with some of the greatest athletes on the planet, who am I and what do I believe in? Because that's what I'm trying to translate to them. I'm still at Nike today because I'm trying to translate who are we and what do you believe in? And it's simply selling a shoe to make money. You don't believe Who are you and what do you believe in? My belief system goes far beyond a shoot well art could have clothed. It goes to a map that can bring people to a central b belief of what's inside and what greatness looks like.

00:26:15
Speaker 1: So on the backtrack a little bit. Your initial entry to Nike, your job was to sell what you just explained, sell a dream to elite college basketball players. How did that work out? And then where did Mike fall into that picture?

00:26:28
Speaker 2: You know, when I came in, I came in as the East Coast field rep. Okay, so basically I was hired on the East Coast to work with the NBA players. So I was back in the DC, Maryland area. So I would go over to the Bullets and the Wizards and basically service all the people that came in. And I did that, I mean I worked with them. I did that, and it was great. First of all, you knew most of all of those guys, so these are the get you had played ball with that you'd know. Even one of the great things I would say about Doc Doctor J. You know, I came up an earlier when him and child they were playing with the Virginia Square, so I knew them, and we were playing in a game those summer league games in the Urban League, and Doc he said, he said, he said, Howard, you got your degree. I said, I'm gonna get it. He said, you know, they forget pretty quickly when you're out of school. You need to get that. Now, I said, I'm on the doc. And now when I see doctor, I said, Doctor, thanks man. I appreciate, he said, man, that's what we suposed to do, right, So it's not hearing but listening. When you listen to what someone actually is telling you, you are so far ahead of the game. Life is been good. Not because I'm not smart, but I was dumb enough to listen to people that saw more in me than I could see. So I have learned that the universe sees you just as you do see yourself. And if you see yourself here, well what the hell watch you? To see you any other way? It's when you start lifting to see yourself in ways that may be uncomfortable. You get over that pretty quick. And the question, okay, maybe look at y'all started a podcast when people won't doing this. If people are paying attention, podcasts reach more people now than news does. So the wave of where we are going is listening to people share stories. They can elevate you. My daughter when she ran track and I would come out, I would watch her. We traveled watch her one day because she's pretty good. So she won. They down there jubilen, jumping up and down. The old man come down and said, you know what it did. What you're gonna do? You might as real quit. Hell, I ain't gonna follow you all around the world for you to put a half effort in. I want. Well, we ain't talking about winning and losing here, We're talking about what you're actually putting into this. She corrected it. One day we were out there was pawn raining, I mean literally pawing. Now I had an umbrother. Hell, she out running, so she couldn't have unbrother, and I stopped. I said, I said, man, did call her bad? I said, look around. Tell me what you see? She said, Dad, it's pouring down, raining out he we the only fools out here. I don't see nothing, I say, so you're not looking, look around and tell me what you see. She said. The only thing I see is a feel for the seagulls. I said, that's correct. So I want you to remember that it's only you and the seagulls out here in this driving rain. Look and find one and let that lead you to victory. So life is a mindset that you choose to accept. And when she stay champion, this MVP, all of that, it's a mindset that takes you. People don't agree with me, people don't see me, people who care about that we ain't trying to impress people. You have to hold yourself accountable. You want to be because that's the only one that needs to see it. In the universe will see you as you see you, Nike. Wow, what a ride. Some of the greatest, most phenomenal people on the planet. But the real deal is, how do you help them achieve their goals? How do you help them see who they are? Forget the game of basketball. It's a game game that they have done quite will like life goes way past them. So let's now discuss who you are. Are we doing the right things? Somebody told me, well, Michael Jordan forty years ago he played basketball. No kids remember that. Maybe that's true. There are not many just bigger than the game Ali, bigger than boxing. Matter of fact, I think Ali is just getting years old on a poach this stam Peyley. If you go over to that football world Jordan, Now, if you went way back, you probably could put Babe Ruth in there. He was bigger than the game of baseball. Tiger would probably be bigger than the game of God. If you went to music, Elvis Presley, you know they say Elvis still living out at grace Land somewhere way bigger than music. Nineteen sixty one, Elvis made a sound Can't Help Falling in Love that's probably played at seventy five percent of the weddings around the country, stream billions of time. That's nineteen sixty one. The King, Michael Jackson pop around the world, Moon Dance, thriller, Billy Jeans. See. It's not a lot of people about the Beatles that rise above, and there are not a lot of people that can handle rise and m The racing team own, the team own, the motorcycle team, got a yacht that's bigger than a football field. G sevens Jordan Bray that says people want to associate with a winning attitude because that's something I think everybody has under their control how they see it. I failed over and over and over. That is why I succeed. That's everybody just because you fail. If you're gonna be anything in life, you better fail. It's just when that keeps you down. It's when you fail lose. So my job was to help these young people. You know then they had Sentia Cooper at least Leslie don Staly mean, they were all of my people that said we can do this. You can do this. So the beauty of life is as you climb, who do you become? Who would have imagined the guy like myself? I worked out all the time. After I couldn't play ball, I swim and after that stopped swimming. I got a bicycle. I'm riding hundreds of miles and got a bicycle. I'm traveling around the world with m going to the tour the front some eat man life was beautiful. One damn walking up the stairs and Tiger Woods. I can't make it up the stairs. Literally, I cannot make I'm like, what in the world me, This can't be so I can't breathe. Finally get my wife. She said, uh huh, what did I said, I don't know, but I'll be okay. She said, no, we going to the hospital. Matter of fact, it was gonna be for you a lot that money, she said, And we're going before then because the doctors might be out on vacation. We going to the hospital. We went, They look at you, they do all this stuff. They say, well, you know, we just want to keep you overnight. Mhm, because overnight became about ten, eleven, twelve days. It's your heart. We found this got this amaloord ammelodosis. What's that? Well, it's this amalord that everybody produces it, but in some people it goes and it can get into your heart this or that. And I think a lot of people, a lot of players have it and have had to have transplants as I do. Now they have medicines. And once I had it, and then one thing, they said, you needed a transplant. I was like, and on s. I don't drink, I don't stay out, I don't hang out. I don't do any of those things. How could this be me? They said, just maybe that's why you still living. I said, I'm good with that. I'm good with that. I ain't got no problem with that. And I'm good with that. And I was good for a while, and put me on some mads. I was good for a while. I thought, boom, boom, boom. December tenth just started in twenty seventeenth. Decembenty tenth, twenty twenty. I went in and they did. They called it a right hard cat. They go in through your neck, check the heart out, see what's doing. He said, this ain't doing that good. I said, you don't think He said no, He said, now if you you can leave, but you come back next week. We got to go through this again. I said, what do you think, Doki, Well, it's COVID where you're going. It ain't like you're going out hanging out at the club where you're going. I said, what you think? Well, I got a room for you upstairs. I'm good. The same guy that had told me in twenty step I might need a hard transplant. First guy saw. I said, you're right. Huh.

00:38:21
Speaker 1: He said it.

00:38:22
Speaker 2: Looks like it. And because when he told me, then, I said, what's next steps? How fast can we get it going? He came back in the room after about twenty minutes, he said, this ain't the way people usually take this news. I said, you got a better way to take it. Let's do it. And eventually, when I needed it went in on decembery seven, I saw the world a little different because once they're gonna give you a transplant, they checked him for everything. I said, okay, okay, okay, I'm gonna get this like on Christmas December twenty fifth. I said, that's when it's gonna come. Okay, And I remember Doc doctor Abraham. He called me right. He said, well Christmas not over yet. I said, yeah, getting pretty close though. He said, well, let's not give up hope. I said, well, I'm not, but it's getting close. The heart came on Sunday. I said, you know that's when God does his best work on Sunday. I miscalculated that a little bit. I was kind of rushing it talking about on that Friday. Came on Sunday. He said, I delivered this in my time. Y'all trying to mess with me. I'm delivering it. They put it in on the twenty eighth, and my daughter man that she was running professionally at that time, but she took off about four months. Said I'm gonna come home. Want to make sure everybody's good. But the way you see the world at that time, I was like, yeah, I ain't doing this. Niked that I ain't doing nothing no more. I'm good. I talked to mister Knight. He said, I think it would be good if you're still there. I said, for what he said, I think it would be good. I say and do what he said, Do you just be yourself? So I think that he was saying to me, you are Nike. You are part of this. You've helped structure this. I want you to help the next generation of people believe in something greater than they are. As I went back, and you start thinking, what can you do that Jim that walked in that first day and couldn't play. Is the Howard White Court on Howard White Way, across town over in the bou Wiy's Sports pleques with all the AAU people. There is the Howard White Pavilion AJ two, the Howard White h U the imagination. They asked me about a center. I said, I ain't doing no center. That's crazy, am the Lord's I ain't doing that. And Mandy said, my daughter said, why wouldn't you Dad? It's because I ain't ask nobody but no money. He said, how do you know what people? I said, well, I ain't gonna ask him to find out. She said, I think it would be a good idea. I said, you crazy. She said, I really think it would be a good idea. So there's the Howard White Center, Howard h Flight Center for Amalydosis. And when I look at what that has the possibility of doing is that people will not have to get to where I was. People will not have to get to a transplant, and so many business people and friends wanted to support this, and all these people gave all the money and MJ gave the Orca of the Black Cat. He gave up a million dollars. Like really, he said, well you know what, Yeah, they kept you here. That's what I'm that's what I really am proud of. So when you believe in something, you never know what the universe has in store. And it had saved so many lives and with all of the work it does, and they found they found five that had amlydotes that didn't even know it. They can treat it, they can move forward. And you know, I take a drug right now that keeps it from re entering the heart, gives you a better opportunity, and so to be a bridge for somebody, it's one of the most beautiful things in the world. So when you look at having a heart transplant, you look at the medicines that now can prevent that. If we have the knowledge, if we are open to what people tell us, that sometimes that's all it takes. That narrow window gets to open and open and open. Just like when I took MJ, mister Knight to see him, somebody else was listening to me you started learning of a world that you couldn't even fathom. Then I could always talk to him, what do you think about X, Y and Z? What does that do? We have the all time, all time, all that billionaire telling this little kid from Virginia, Oh, I think you should do this? Now you should? That's crazy. Even a dog and wag his tail when it passes you on the street. I haven't been around the greatest athletes on the planet. I have been around people worth millions and millions and billions and billions. The best advice I have ever gotten, even a dog can wagers tell when it passes you on the street. So someone were to say, what you attribute your life to the little old lady with a sixth grade education, that says, even the dog can wagers tell when it passes you on the street. So my life is a reflection of all of those that have gone before me and all of the people that I can touch, that they might see the greatness within them. That's all you want them to do. Just see it, see the possibilities. Don't look at who you think you might be because of your circumstances, because of where you from, because of the school you went to, because I was born in property and there's no way out because that person doesn't look like me, that person doesn't talk like me. It's a fix for all of that. Man. Education, listening to elders, listening to teachers. And I know a lot of young people think they don't know what they're talking about. Maybe they don't, but they know a little bit more than you. So listen, listen, listen. It might refrain the way you see yourself.

00:46:44
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Take us back to meeting Mike and developing a friendship and getting him on to the Nike side, because it was all but done. He was in Adidas, gud.

00:47:00
Speaker 2: Talking all the way.

00:47:01
Speaker 1: So how did you all? I'm sure after sitting talking to you for a little while, I think you what you told him obviously work. You know what?

00:47:09
Speaker 2: Then? Okay, if we really really really looked in depth, remember him, Jay was a youngster, and I knew all the boys. Feel for all the guys that have been there, Man, I know them. I recruiting. Tell me about this kid or they been boom. But he's Adidas guy. Now that's all you wear. It's Adidas, that's all the way age. But he's a great kid, good parent, good guy. He can play now, but he's an Adidas guy. Okay, let's go back a little bit. Probably say with you man, remember that Orca led by a female. They saw the spiritual the lad They know where to feed.

00:47:54
Speaker 1: They know this.

00:47:58
Speaker 2: David Falk, who was his age, the Falcon, he had, man, we can do this and this and that. MJ the had just won the championship. Then he just went to the Olympics. So he told his parents, told David, I'm not going out there. I already know what I want to do, so I'm not going. So Pop talked to him, called them and said, you know, we should go out there and listen to them people, I'm not going. Y'all go if y'all want, I'm not going. I know what I'm gonna do. Gave the phone to his mother d laws Mama, Jay Well, he said, he ain't coming. I see you at the plane. You know what time it leaves. I see you at the plane. In the conversation, he may not have wanted to come, but Mama said, it is what we're going. He got there. I'm sure the whole time he pissed, don't want to be there, and with the hell the wasting my time. Then as he got I was late on you know, somebody, how the heck was you late to the meeting. I went to my lawyer who was in DC at the time. He was there, David Smithy. He said, well, I said, man, I got the big meet Michael Jordan coming there.

00:49:21
Speaker 1: Well, let's go.

00:49:23
Speaker 2: Get a lunch. I said, man, hey, I got a big meat as right around the corner and we'd be right back. Ain't no big deal. Let's go get a lunch. The place was not a right around the corner. Then place way out in the boondogs hell makes your tavern.

00:49:38
Speaker 1: I'm like.

00:49:40
Speaker 2: The Hamburger was like this big. I'm like smith that plenty of time, plenty of time. Well, I don't know if I was that late or that was that they was that early, but when I got there, back there there just maybe that was a plan from some where other maybe God put it like that, because Pop said, the only black guy, he and he late the world. Are we gonna do our people? Our people? Bam? But we're there. Everybody's talking through through booms, draws and got all these plays. We all talked through it. Him he won't play, you know, he ain't play his cards. You know, he loved, he loved, he loved that poking stuff. He won't you ain't know what he was thinking. Little clothes boom. They had the music playing, they dished the videos and jumpingson. Hmm ah. But you never know, pop Son, you got to look at this. But he did go to all the other places at that time. The Converse was the king and they had everybody, everybody, Bird, Magic, Ice Doc they had, they had, Marca had everybody, Adidas had like Cap and Marcus Johnson had a few people. Then they had the Ali rap thing, run DMC, the whole nine.

00:51:25
Speaker 1: You know.

00:51:26
Speaker 2: So I think Pap was like, that's pretty good. What detail all about? So after all the I mean you think about the artist. Ain't gonna pay the young kid like that all this money? That's ridiculous. We got the best guy. We got Cap, we got that what food people would pay him all that money? Converts they got everybody. Yeah, we probably make another one of these people. Manky didn't have all of that. We had a few players and Sidney new wigs and I mean this time though right for sure, for sure, but strassing them. You know, they had a plane. So when I look at us again, remember if you listening when they talking to him, they putting like on the board, they got this huge, huge time Man of the year hm hm wow, first billion there. I mean they putting these lofty things up.

00:52:37
Speaker 1: There like wow, believe wow, you know what?

00:52:44
Speaker 2: Why not? And you know you keep seeing these things, you keep seeing these things. You know they really went out because now you know the commercials, the distance. They made this thing bigger than life, the man that could fly.

00:53:04
Speaker 1: Wow.

00:53:05
Speaker 2: Peter designed the first one. He designed like a little wings local. They had a basketball wings kind of taking off. When you get the wings when you're on the airplane, you know, they give you the look. That's what the first one was drawn, which was very successful. So I said, Peter, why are you changing? Man? We're good? He said, Now, I think I kind of want something that people can beat on their golf shirt and adults and this that's what the jump Man came about. But I still go back to all of those Time man. Yeah, first news. I'm like, whoa.

00:53:47
Speaker 1: Man? Did you feel like they were sold after the meeting.

00:53:51
Speaker 2: I think the parents were probably sold. MJ was I don't like them things Mann adid this guy got the pretty warm ups. They got the shoes. I'm an Adidas guy, but they weren't willing to stretch out and do Even when we did it, I was like, damn, this is crazy. She's a young kid, gonna give him all that money? And d Fault was the one that said, ah, and Jordan see that got pretty good ring to it and Jordan. So you start thinking of how that thing started spread. People that started believing and something amazing. He did the basketball part but having a transference of belief and people say, well it was basketball. I said, no, that just happened to be a platform.

00:55:06
Speaker 1: That he was on.

00:55:08
Speaker 2: Because everything he's ever touched his kind of bend. So that was the platform you all confused. The platform that what really is?

00:55:19
Speaker 1: So that original designer what's his name? Against Peter Moore he left for Adidas.

00:55:26
Speaker 2: He did him and Rob.

00:55:28
Speaker 1: Was there any truth to the rumor that MJ was possibly following or is that urban legend?

00:55:32
Speaker 2: Well no, no, not a real urban No. I think you know m J thought about it and thought about it and thought about it, and the Peter said, and I think where you are, it's where you belonged. Interesting because they were, you know, about wanting to clothes and this and m again he's young. Then Pop was like, hey, these people, they's been good. It's brand, it's niked, they've been good to him. Peel came on, he talked to him. So I think again you start seeing something that's bigger. Then a basketball.

00:56:12
Speaker 1: Player oncomes Tinker and he helps. As you mentioned earlier, designed three through fifteen, when do you kind of feel like, at what point did you and Mike really start developing a relationship where he trusted you, you trusted him, and it really became more than a business, It became a friendship.

00:56:33
Speaker 2: You know, Well, that's probably right off the bat. You know, I remember once we signed him, we just paid him a lot of money.

00:56:43
Speaker 1: Well would you mind if that because obviously you deals today are crazy at that time?

00:56:46
Speaker 2: Do you call it was like three fifty something like that?

00:56:51
Speaker 1: It wasn't.

00:56:52
Speaker 2: Well, yes, that was astronomical.

00:56:53
Speaker 1: This that I'm saying that was huge.

00:56:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, because at the beginning, if you were a star, superstar, like one hundred thousand dollars, this was like off the charts and a percentage from the shoe royalty, right yep. And so again nobody thought that it would be what it was what has become but again they were looking from a pure basketball perspective.

00:57:27
Speaker 1: He created a lifestyle brand period.

00:57:30
Speaker 2: He created something that you know again and I used the orca because what happened is a part when you belong to something that you feel that intrinsically you are a part of you grasp that too. I can jump hide in that old man, I think I can fly. Felipe Lopez. I remember his moms told him maybe you could be like the man that could fly if you work hard enough. So once you see the possibility of something that can transcend my mama, she said, well, I want to go see Michael Jordan. Mama, you can't walk up them stairs think I could. No, you can't. You know my daughter man that she was a little kid. MJ was over the and with sleep.

00:58:24
Speaker 1: And she was like, sh.

00:58:28
Speaker 2: Uncle, MJ. Sleep, don't wake him up. What you know about J's sleep? So you know, when you when you think about something that's bigger than life, we look at basketball. That's the same guy that told her when he was there, you got somebody to take you to the prom? No call uncle m J. If you don't, I'll fly in and take you. It's a little sixteen year old girls.

00:59:00
Speaker 1: Whoa can you imagine that? That's insane.

00:59:05
Speaker 2: Once you start seeing something bigger, a bigger belief, a trajectory, it says it's possible.

00:59:16
Speaker 1: As you said, basketball is the vehicle, it's the inspiration and the dreamt Yeah.

00:59:22
Speaker 2: So once you're able to open up your mind to see what's possible, the work you put in is just the price.

00:59:32
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:59:32
Speaker 2: If you go in and ask for for right now, they ain't giving it to you.

00:59:37
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa?

00:59:38
Speaker 2: Okay, how bad do you want this.

00:59:44
Speaker 1: Now? Either?

00:59:44
Speaker 2: This is something that you have dreamed about all of your life? Oh you think you getting a Chevrolet Noble? And if you've dreamed about it all your life, I.

00:59:55
Speaker 1: Know what it takes.

00:59:58
Speaker 2: And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna put myself in a position that one day that's gonna be me.

01:00:06
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get it.

01:00:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that life?

01:00:11
Speaker 1: The one obviously broke all kinds of numbers and expectations to Jordan. Two didn't perform as expected, so there was pressure with a new designer coming the threes. What was the mindset around the team for the threes?

01:00:25
Speaker 2: It was very funny, it was it was this is this is very funny. Now Tinker and I are like this. It didn't start out like that. We at the meeting and Tinker and them they had been doing that gets their designs and drawings, and they came and they showed all of these things, and them came. We came in the meeting together and they showing them all of this stuff, and m says, eh, what do you think? Don't look that good to me? Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. I ain't feeling in it now. The backlash that they said, well, you know, the only one that the fridge right, the only one that could probably hurt you is Tinkers. It was a problem. Uh, you said something that he's upset about. So I called think could give me the number? I said, what's up?

01:01:19
Speaker 1: Tinker?

01:01:19
Speaker 2: He said, I'm not afraid that said. We put in a lot of work. We put in hours and days and weeks to do this, and you can just sit in a meeting and say that you don't like something. Yes, he said, No, I said, World whoa war? War? War? Whoar wo? He asked for my opinion? Did he not? He said, what?

01:01:50
Speaker 1: No?

01:01:50
Speaker 2: He asked for my opinion? So now what you want me to lie? I don't do that. If he asked for my opinion, I'm gonna give him my opinion. I'm not gonna lie to him. He said, well, you mad at that much? I said, I don't know. I think so he said, well, maybe we need to get together before we do these meetings. There you go, it might not help, that could hurt. It won't hurt you. So that's what you know. Again, Me and Tinker became we like this because now there was an entree. He could go to MJ's, he could go in the closet, he could be in the garage, he could look at the cars, and he could start formulating who he was. Who he was then that could go into the shoe. So from I can't believe he's sitting here telling him that he don't like something too. Again, best of friends, best of friends.

01:02:50
Speaker 1: Well the three to five, Jordan's three to five was at the best three year run of Sneakers ever, argued, good, now, that's.

01:02:59
Speaker 2: Pretty good run, you know, And I think the eleven was pretty good. And probably the audacity to after he stopped playing, to keep going with shoes, see, because at that point it's over. Even mister Knight, we were coming back, he said, been a good run. What are you talking about? Been a good run?

01:03:32
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

01:03:34
Speaker 2: He said, well, he's not playing anymore, so we've had a good run at this. I said, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think this can keep going. He said, how he's not playing. So the formula is, we signed a player, we built a shoe, we market the shoe, we sell a shoe. Good forman good for woman worked. I said, you know, I called mister knight Buck a lot of time. See you know, I was out in front of the campus just the other day. Don't know how it happened, but I saw a car pull up to the stop light. It stopped, it waited, light turned green, it took off. What what the here you're talking about? I said. It was Mercedes Beds And to my knowledge, mister Mercedes been dead awful long time. How could that happen? Point taking its okay? I said, So you know, let's build a ghost. Hell he dead, that's still going, he's still living. Let's keep going. He said, maybe we should build a ghost too. So again a lot of me is helping people vision bigger picture, the bigger picture, the bigger picture.

01:05:15
Speaker 1: Let's discuss some pivotal moments you were a part of. And this is just the name a few the baseball years. What were his what was his mental like during the time he stepped away from the NBA and played a little baseball. Obviously he had just lost his father.

01:05:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, in that time frame, yep, Pop was gone. You know here here's something quite interesting about again. Let's go back to our earlier conversation about mental mindset. He had decided, I'm done. You won three championships, I'm done with this. I always wanted to play baseball. So he had his whole basement transferred over into like baseball stuff, waiting for baseball hand stuff. I mean, the entire thing became about baseball. And once he from Boom, we went down and we stayed there for the longest. I'll tell you what, man, that was tough and me and we'd be up in that suite. We we I mean, doubleheaders and all of that. He said, y'all had the lights out of No, y'allways sleep the gun. No.

01:06:25
Speaker 1: No, that's.

01:06:28
Speaker 2: But his mind because he believed this, that he could be great at that. I mean, so it wasn't even I missed this. I missed it. I can do this, I can do this. And had he had more time doing it, I think he would have done. He was totally committed, totally committed to putting in a time, getting there early, staying there late. He had bought a bus so they could travel in style. Not until they had that strike. Remember when they had that strike, he wasn't officially like on the roster, so he couldn't go in. Yeah, called the plane time to go, and at the plan he tipped the wing down. Have him tipped the wings and say thanks, but goodbye. And I don't think he went back with this thought process is I'm gonna play ball, I'm gonna go back to basketball, the whole nine. And then he still didnim Jay, I mean he had getting in basketball conditioning changed that up. And I remember, like it was yesterday when he went down your boom, they said, you ever thought about coming back? I think the best thing the people would disagree. He probably would disagree. I think the best thing ever happened to him when he came back and they lost. See you, Apex predator, this is not you. He called me that summer shoot the space jam. He said, if I had done my part, we would have won. Okay, okay, okay, slowly roll. It's a team game. Now, there's a team game. You can't take it. If I had done my part. Some of it went down to shoot Space Cham a couple of hours out of his lunch break. He lifted and then that they opened and they brought all the guys.

01:08:53
Speaker 1: But then they dome over there for that dome.

01:08:55
Speaker 2: They cleared out an executive parking lot. They built the dome so had the waits in there. All the guys would come in. Now, think about that, because he was off and late, so he didn't get the prime picks. You know, they picked him. He just have anybody, which is probably pretty good. I can't one of the guys. They'll beat him. He's playing with Vancouver and I remember they were playing. They were winning in the real game. He said, the game was over. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I told you, Mike, I told you, yeah, we was gonna get you. He said, okay, Bill, I need to go back in. He got about twenty in a row.

01:09:55
Speaker 1: That was Derek Martin.

01:09:56
Speaker 2: Wasn't Dereck Martin? Dereck Martin. After he said keep your little mouse set, then the guys, he said, what tell him keep his mouth shut. It's him, it's his fault. And see that's when you knew, well he ain't playing around. And the way he showed up every game. I don't care whether it were the last place team, whether it was a championship, a game, whether it was practice. He played the exact same. Even Phil Jackson would sometimes we're gonna set the score back. You know, hey, that's not the school. Well just keep no, No, that's not the school. Well no, you walked out of See that mental compus that was saying, no, why did you play hard him? There might be some father that couldn't afford a ticket that got a follow the ticket for him and his young kid. They might be in the gym and they will never leave and say it, pop, he ain't that good. I think you could have beat him back in. They'll never leave and say.

01:11:27
Speaker 1: That can't do it.

01:11:28
Speaker 2: No, no, that ain't happened. Not to do it. So when you see his approach, the mental approach, in the mental aspect of what he's doing, pretty calculator. We went up. Remember when he got hurt, he was winning it. There was the year the twos he broke his foot. Now common sense would have said this end of the season. Man, he ain't like championship. He said, I'm ready. Send of the season. Hell take off, get it ready, get your foot ready, start over again. He said, I'm ready. It makes no sense. He said, you don't believe in me. I said, go play. Yeah, I believe they go play. We got that what sixty sixty three against Boston. I remember when he walked out of the room. He had those terminated glasses. We had just watched terminator put those glasses on and walk out. I'm ready. Well we saw what he needs.

01:12:42
Speaker 1: Definitely ready.

01:12:44
Speaker 2: So his mentality. They won that last game. We had just watched it. Now, remember the shot against Elo. Here's something very powerful. Jordan missed about three or four free throws in Chicago. There were the beat Cleveland. He never misses three throws. When we got to Cleveland, the Boys was there. Boom, boom boom. That's when you turn on the movie. There was nothing on the TV. Now you had to wait for whatever time that was for the movie. He simply stared into the television. Wasn't nothing on it. It was just a blank screen. I said, you right, oh yeah, I'm good.

01:13:38
Speaker 1: I'm good.

01:13:38
Speaker 2: Agent. Okay, okay, and he said, well, I ain't taking that free throw. He took the big guy, I ain't drive. He hit that big shot. Was that bigger than that moment? Was that fate?

01:14:00
Speaker 1: M hmm?

01:14:01
Speaker 2: Because he never missed free throws? Was that fate putting him in that position? The world is the very interesting thing? His doubt game he did not. Bj Armstrong always said he learned. He never lost, he won, and we learned his perspective in all of those things. Sometimes when you can get beat, he said, Okay, that's that time, that's their time. The rest of him belongs to me. Just the way he saw the world was wrong.

01:14:52
Speaker 1: And with that the last the last dance, as I was coming to life and being built, what was What was he like in and how excited he was about that process of.

01:15:03
Speaker 2: The last day. I don't know if he gets excited about it. A lot of it's just life. You know, all the footage had been shot in the interview on them, I think you saw his true feelings. You saw really the way he led. You know, you saw in that interview being tearsed on occasion, never apologizing for the way he led. And people will come up to me, well, you know if I could talk to him. You know, there's a modern way that he have to deal with these kids, and you think that's what he would be doing. You think he care about Come on, man, well kids don't respond to that, and he cares. So again, that's just who he is. He chose to share.

01:15:58
Speaker 1: Who he was. I think he gave us an opportunity to get to see who you saw on a daily basis, because again this is way pre social media, so he's always us. We talked before. It's always been the myth or the legend of him. And to be able to kind of open up and see behind the curtains a little bit at a time where you didn't get that kind of access was I mean, he had the world tuned in.

01:16:20
Speaker 2: Ooh, COVID too. Nothing to do but again, could you even plan it like that?

01:16:26
Speaker 1: Nothing too but to do it?

01:16:28
Speaker 2: And I mean again his mental acumen. Okay, here's a guy. He got to catch twenty three. He out in the middle of the Ocean Championship fishing for self. He's a guy that was definitely scared of the water when his best friends had drowned. He ain't going And I think that he's out in the middle come on the will to override those things, things that hold most people back. Yeh, what's an untold story about? Like Matt just alluded to MJ's like mythical almost with today's there, we don't really see him much, or we didn't.

01:17:16
Speaker 1: We didn't see him like.

01:17:17
Speaker 2: People see today's athletes.

01:17:18
Speaker 1: But what's like an untold story.

01:17:22
Speaker 2: Or maybe whether it's with m J or the brand well that people don't know about that may change the perception. Here's something that I think what you relate to Richard din Chicago Bears Denny, you know at the games. I'm at the games, so him playing, he said, h you know, I've been doing a lot of spin classes. Man, you want to let's go cycling. I traveled with the bike, so I always I'm good. Yeah, I be at the house. I be at the house tomorrow. Okay, so he can't him sue. We went out and not a big ride. We're like thirty miles. Because when he got home he said, MJ. He said, wait, day, me and A just went thirty miles. Man, thirty miles and man, we went thirty miles. We may say no, good, Yeah we went thirty miles a day. Man later that summer. This months passed. We were over, had a tool over in Tokyo, over in Japan, went to that. Then when we left, I had my bike. So I got out early early in the morning and ride way out and then you could come back with all the traffic because a ton of traffic. I just ride back with that and said, man, I wish I had that bike. I'd be out there with you said no, no, no, we don't need to do that, and we got in a bike. We got to Hawaii early in the morning. I went to bed, so he went to bed. The wives that watch the sunrise. My wife came up and said, MJ looking for you. Ain't looking for me? He said, no, here he is.

01:19:13
Speaker 1: But what.

01:19:15
Speaker 2: I don't know?

01:19:17
Speaker 1: She said.

01:19:17
Speaker 2: I said, you know he's looking. So I go up black. I said, what up? Man, you're gonna try to go riding without me? I said what yeah, yeah, you're gonna try to leave me. You was gonna go riding without me? I said, man, my bike not even together. He were gonna put it together. I know you're gonna wanna leave me. So I go put the bike together and we down there. Said why getting ready to get hide? I said hey, let's go about ten miles or so, just get you used to what. We're going at least thirty miles.

01:19:49
Speaker 1: At least at least at least I said, no.

01:19:55
Speaker 2: We're going at least thirty miles. So I remember, I put one of them mix years up in this water bottle, keep drinking. Put it on his bike. I got me a couple. We out and that's the MJ. Keep drinking, man, because it's getting hide out here. Drink what to the bottom I put on your bike? Or that thing fell off way back there. Now he got a T shirt on that's like a sail boat, bit basketball shorts or you know the wind just put I'm like, Lord, have mercy. So I had we stopped giving one of my bottle. Keep drinking this. You ain't gonna die out here. On my watch. We go, we keep getting water. We're about thirty five forty miles, go back. Richard Dent was never gonna say he did anything better than Michael Jordan.

01:20:51
Speaker 1: Couldn't do it.

01:20:53
Speaker 2: Never we were in Mexico, we played I used to play a little bit of ping pong at the boys clubs that we playing ping pong, table tennis. That was winning you get a little frustrated, you go back home. He orders up ping pong table and put in his basement. Everybody that come over there got to play ping pong. Everybody got to play ping pong. Then he had him put two or three ping pong tables in the Birdles center. So now you got the news people, the sports right, everybody got to play. He got pretty good at ping pong, at table tennis. His mind is wired, gotta be the best, can't accept defeat.

01:21:41
Speaker 1: I got a chance to play with cod and when you when you're talking about the mental and and just that drive to be the best at everything. I saw that in Kobe. And I remember the one thing Kobe used to tell me was I want to be able to sit at the table with Mike, meaning he wanted that sixth ring and to be the greatest of all time. And then just like when you when you talk about Mike, despite all the stuff you're talking about, he was doing. It's his mind.

01:22:08
Speaker 2: That's how cold I knew it was. Then the jelly Bean, we all all come about the same time, and jelly Bean kept telling me, Hey, you got to see my son. You got to see my son. I said, you gotta see him. You gotta see him. When I did, I went to see him and I said pretty good, yelling me, yeah, yeah, he's you great. I said, let him go to Douke or something for a year. No, I said, well, you telling me he gonna be senators and all of this stuff. Hell, I ain't seen none of them, not going to a school and becoming that. He's oh, he's gonna be great, He's gonna be great. So he went to Adidas and then boom, boom boom. When he finally came, he was out on campus and I went over with him. We're working out. We did about three hours with no basketball. Nope. I was like, whoa, whoa. Now. When we were leaving, I said, I said, cold, man, I ain't seen nobody work out. He said, you saw m J. Right, I say, that's right, that's right. I think that's all MJ do. Yeah, I knew, I knew you saw m J.

01:23:20
Speaker 1: I know you.

01:23:24
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, But that is that what they called the mamble that matter of fact. True. We were talking about that the other day and I asked the guy he's from Africa, the King of the jungle. He said, you know, there's only but one king of the jungle, I said, what is that that lie in there?

01:23:44
Speaker 1: He no? I said, what.

01:23:48
Speaker 2: Black mumble? I said, you say that venom is deadly when they strike it sober, it's over ten fifty. So when you look at that mentality, what they actually are capable of doing? The body is the body is the body. People keep thinking that, hey, they got all of these physical traits. Yeah, and that's everybody. Oh hell, Dominic could probably jump high in him, there's a zillion.

01:24:26
Speaker 1: Now this.

01:24:32
Speaker 2: That clock is wound a little different, and I would tell them, I mean, this is the here's the real difference. That ain't a great way to live life on a court perfect life? Who you holding to them? Who can you hold to that? I mean, think about that. You're trying to hold somebody to those impossible even yourself daily you can't do it.

01:25:04
Speaker 1: I mean, oh.

01:25:07
Speaker 2: What she did?

01:25:08
Speaker 1: What he was?

01:25:09
Speaker 2: Another? He was forty five minutes and you called out the workout?

01:25:13
Speaker 1: What is that?

01:25:14
Speaker 2: I mean those standards?

01:25:19
Speaker 1: So you're getting tired of talking about it, But that's how they why shout out to Ben Affleck. We had a chance to sit down with him about six weeks ago on another project, but he talked to us about Air and obviously Chris Tucker portrayed you. I may in that in that film, and legend has it that's MJ's favorite movie is Friday. But talk to us about seeing Chris portray you and just kind of seeing that project come to life.

01:25:46
Speaker 2: You know that, I mean, you know Tuck. Tuck was the first one that called me, said he you know, they my agent called and they said, they want me to play you in this film. I said, get out of here. No no, no, no, no, I'm serious. I'm serious. I said, they want you to play me in a and I said, seriously, can I said, okay, okay.

01:26:11
Speaker 1: We started.

01:26:11
Speaker 2: He said, I don't know if I'm gonna do it, but boom. Then Ben went down to visit with Michael because he said, if you don't want me to do this project, I won't do it. And they talk. He said, well, if you're gonna do a project about me and Nike, h got to be in there. That's been my mentor He's guided me, you know in the book. I don't know if I could make it my time in the lead without him. Valle Davis need to play my mama and hey, Ram that's I like, after being there, that's my guy too. So now Ben called me. Tug said, Ben gonna call you, been gonna call you so, and he talked about all the little nuances about the Moses and this and all of these things, which actual all was in the film. And then Tuck, I think, you know, Tuck did the great job. You know, Tuck was Howard White. Tuck played Howard White, and that I mean, I thought it was great because that's my guy. So when you look at what that is, what that film is, a lot of people were all that true. I said, that's a movie. But even Phield Knight said after he said, he said, that is the best representation of early Nike that I have ever seen. So people want to know what details that ain't what you look at? What you're looking at? How did this become the big picture? And so I I loved it. I loved it. I think that you know, being sent me one and looking at it and we all looking as Wow, first of all, you're in a movie that's crazy within itself.

01:28:15
Speaker 1: Chris Tucker too, I'm a huge Chris White.

01:28:18
Speaker 2: In a movie, a real movie, a movie on the screen, and talk good people. I mean We had known each other since. You know, we used to MJ's golf hour that we would have over in the Bahamas.

01:28:31
Speaker 1: And how's your golf game? By the way, you've been around I don't. You don't golf.

01:28:35
Speaker 2: How here's the problem. See, remember we started know thyself well, respect and what I know about me. It's a little bit of that. It's I'm relentless. If I want to do something. I didn't just want to ride a bike. I wanted to really ride a bike. I had to go to the two to the front l arms Lance. Lance. We talking, and I mean over there and boom boom. He went it to Hey we called. That's called m J. Him his last house. He just won. Boom boom. So I traveled everywhere with the bike. I mean, I'm gonna be a cyclist. When I wanted to play basketball, I'm too stupid. Now I said, I'm gonna play all night. I'm gonna play. So I knew that the problem was this. You're gonna be good at golf. You gotta go to the putt and green, you gotta go to the driving ring. Everything you gotta go to. That's like, oh yeah, you gotta do this. I can't do that because I get addicted to things. Okay, I'm gonna start swimming. After I almost drowned my daughter we was over, I'm like, because I couldn't, you know, I grew up by the water. But though fakes swim and we got out. The thing got a little too far out there. I said, Oh the Lord, if I fell off of him, I'm an drown her trying to So I had to come back and start taking swimming lessons. I took swimming left. How were you well, I was grown. I mean she was at that time, probably eleven or twelve, so, you know, in my fifties. And I'm like, so now I got to go swimming. At every turn I traveled, I had swimming, stay at hotels with pools. I mean, my whole life became I'm gonna swim and became pretty good swimming. I knew that was the exact same mentality.

01:30:42
Speaker 1: That I would take a golf playing with all the time.

01:30:46
Speaker 2: See my wife, They said, well, will he come, She said no, He owned the bike five hours a day. He do no. Why do you think I wanted to play golf and be out there all night? And the reason I never played? Remember the people you were around. MJ left when it was dark, he came back when it was dark, and it's the summer. No, they playing eighteen thirty six.

01:31:16
Speaker 1: No too much.

01:31:20
Speaker 2: So now to beat them, I mean, I got to be out there even longer.

01:31:24
Speaker 1: You made a good choice.

01:31:25
Speaker 2: So I said, no, I saw you your golf instructor, and they say it's addictive.

01:31:33
Speaker 1: Oh super.

01:31:35
Speaker 2: See huh No, No, no, this was crazy. Now. I generally the most money that I would ever carry with me, it's like one hundred dollars. Because when I was growing up, my uncle Buster was in the shipyard and they say, oh, he like make one hundred dollars a week. I was like, that's a lot of money. Wow, And then once that I'll keep one hundred dollars. So when they gambling and he get down him, give me that hundred.

01:32:10
Speaker 1: Dollars, come on him. I got on it.

01:32:15
Speaker 2: I don't give me, give me a hundred dollars. So I got to give him one hundred dollars. You would always get it, but.

01:32:22
Speaker 1: That was their world.

01:32:23
Speaker 2: I go to Vegas with them, damp all night, playing card. No, I'm going to bed. I'm gonna do what sensible people do, right, so I think therein becomes how people see you. One guy told m J he was out, he was out, you know, probably God for drinking a little. And they said the guy said, you know age, you know I know age. Yeah, that's my mentor not to deal with that drink in your hand. You might as well come on follow me because you ain't following him. So again, how people choose to see you. On the back of that book, Charles Barkley m H was like, the good angel hold your show, telling.

01:33:21
Speaker 1: You what not to do.

01:33:24
Speaker 2: So my responsibility to them because now I got to talk to Granny, I got to go talk to Mama Jay, I gotta talk to Tita. No, because their expectations. Uh oh he was a good it's good. Somebody said, well I told my wife, Oh you told him what No no, no, no, no no no, put not put me in that mix. So again, it's the world. If you want people to follow. And I can tell you I told him, mister Knight. I'm not saying my guys would do what I ask him to do, but I am saying that they were all listening.

01:34:16
Speaker 1: So all you can hope for.

01:34:17
Speaker 2: That's it.

01:34:18
Speaker 1: As a parent father, that's I hope. I hope they listen before we get you out of youd A couple questions too. Obviously, I Nike you for a long time. Do you have any bou Jackson or Deon Sanders stories?

01:34:31
Speaker 2: Well? Prime, you know, Prime is my guy. He was on the foot when he came over. Well, I want to be on HS team. You know, I want to be on hious team. Now, I remember that the night I met Prime, a good friend of mine, they had dinner and hey, come over here and meet Dione. So I went over and we hit it off. Now they were gonna play ball the next day. You know, I had knee, So Y'm gonna come out there. Oh wait, don't that's all. I'll be fine. But I did go out there, probably put me back about two street weeks ago. I went out there. But what Prime was was really good. What people don't know when the guys he said, hey, this ain't what we do. You know what apologize to that person? What to say something kind? Tell them, That's how we do it. That's how we do it. So being able to be a mentor. And when he came back, when he went to Colorado and he came back and he was like I ain't. No, I'm not gonna be with Nike. And then when I called him, I said you're good. I'll make sure you're good. He's, oh, you got me? I said, you good.

01:35:48
Speaker 1: I appreciate that because I didn't got every new Dion Sanders since and I didn't. I appreciate that them. Just come to the house. I'll be wearing them to the gym, Like where'd you get those from?

01:35:58
Speaker 2: Being so prime? Prime is just good people. I mean he he really is. He's good people. And what they people see a Prime and they think, oh, that's who Dion is. No, he is one of those meticulous people that really really really sees himself as a mental leading people take it. So you know that that's my guy. That's my guy. Bou Both Jackson, you know Bot we I mean, we we're close. You know, I think Lyn was dealing with him, but Boul would always come through. And you know, there was a time when Bo said I'd never wear another Nike. It I'm done, never wear another Nike, and then brought him back in. And because Bowl and m J were very close, so we all became very close again. If you with them, then the whole world circulates through that, so wanting people. Obviously Bolt was talented, talented, so again, everybody needs somebody to believe in them. That's just the way the world works. All of my guys I believed it, and hence I was rewarded by their believe in me. And the reason for me doing that it's Nike. Nike actually gave me access to a world that would be hard to fathom, a world that they allowed me to create because it was bigger than people just wearing a product. It always came down this.

01:38:12
Speaker 1: Is who we are, you said. Something important though, especially for athletes, is being able to trust. For them to be able to trust you speaks a lot about your character because we need a ton of bad character people along this journey. And for these guys to be able to hone in on you and know that they can count on you, that says a lot about the man you are as well.

01:38:31
Speaker 2: Well, my guy one of my obviously a big bull, but Alan iverson a I Baba Chuck because I'm from Hampton and I remember that day Boo called me Boo Williams. He said, I got one.

01:38:47
Speaker 1: What you know, I got one?

01:38:49
Speaker 2: But I need help with him?

01:38:53
Speaker 1: Who is that? He said?

01:38:54
Speaker 2: Alan, as I need help, so I go down It just so happens. His guidance counselor Pat. We were in school together, so she's like, she's you exactly what he needs. So we became like that, and his mother and I mean we were all just very close. And Bubba Allan when he signed, I remember boom boom, we worked together. I'm gonna sign him first.

01:39:30
Speaker 1: You were gonna sign him the Nike.

01:39:31
Speaker 2: Well Boo called me. He said, h he out of school. Man, he leaving school.

01:39:40
Speaker 1: I said, it's done so because in college.

01:39:44
Speaker 2: Majority, Yeah, he just came home in a brand new bend. He ain't gonna back to school. He said, really, you need to come down here because Anne, or do whatever you wanted to do, you need to come down here sign him now. So I called mister Knight and I said, I said, feel that's it. You know they told me that Alan out of school. He's not going back. He said, well, I talked to John Jump. I said, I just told you he's out of school. He's not going back. He called Jump, Well, I think he's coming back. He said, well, John think I said, he just came home in a brand new bend. He is not going back, Well, you know, because of John, you know, let's let's don't do anything, okay. Now, then David and all of them got involved in boom boom boom, and I mean again, I love that kid. And we got out. We came out and David was doing all the negotiations and Rebarker got in and rebark said, well, you know, we'll pay, but we want to give you on top of that this marketing money. So when you do marketing, you know you already got the money. We already put it there. So that kind of drove it up pretty high. Now, we probably could have changed it around, but that's like more than Jay was making. That's there's no way on any planet I'm doing that. Well, we could no. No, that ain't happening all my people. We could do.

01:41:32
Speaker 1: No.

01:41:34
Speaker 2: And I remember he asked his mother, what about h She said, well, we kind of We're gonna go for the money. And I love him even when we see each other day. That's my God. And I think in that and this is just being selfish. I think that, but had been one of my guys that I think it would have really help telling a lot of ways.

01:42:02
Speaker 1: If you're the good angel on the shoulder. Yeah, I definitely agree Tiger Woods.

01:42:07
Speaker 2: T Woodie that t Wood is pretty special. Now, first time I met Tiger, we was out on campus. Mom Tee, the Earl, his dad, and we were all just sitting around having had lunch, and I'm listening to this whole conversation. Earl Tee didn't say a lot then, but it's basic Earl Tiger, and I listened. I left there and I called MJ. I said, m said, hey, hey, hey, I just saw you. He said, what, I just saw you take away the basketball court, the vehicle. I just saw you. You said. You never said anything like this. I said, it's a golf course, but I just saw you. I just saw you. And obviously if we see what Tiger, it was that mentality that drive that fierceness. Remember, Earl was a Green Beret and he has probably all his life this is what he put into and Tiger was so young. I don't know how, you know, it's hard, but when I walked out of there, I saw that. You know, we went and went to the First Masters and these things, and you know there was a mental and that's all you know, he had the ping. We'd be at the house he'd be playing. Man, he was not that kind. But you saw the will to win. You saw a will to win. So again, how you see the world inside.

01:43:58
Speaker 1: The world sees you any tiger? The m J golf stories they do what any Tiger and MJ golf stories?

01:44:05
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, I ain't not on that golf course.

01:44:08
Speaker 1: I was wondering had you heard anything? All right? Man, this has been absolutely incredible. We got a couple of just quick hitters. First thing to come to mind, let us know, top, that's gonna be tough for you. It's like all your babies on top of your real children. Top five Jordan Sneakers of all times modeling make you know h you.

01:44:28
Speaker 2: Would obviously have to say one. You know that kind of set the standard. I think that you would also have to go to Tinker threes. Threes, you have to go to threes. And I think that you know, obviously eleven those are my favorite special and the boys that you know, he always thought the boys made they be winning this to a prom. I think that you know, even when you look at the four to follow up the three, Tinker's right on it. I'm gonna tell you a secret one that the ten if you looked at the ten on the bottom, all the MJ's accomplishments when he wasn't playing this when he was playing baseball, So that probably filled then that gap. Yep, it was able to keep that thing broll.

01:45:35
Speaker 1: Well. I was gonna ask that this might be the answer to that. Yeah, membery just pointed to him. Yeah, pointed to him. What's the most underrated? Jordan Sninker?

01:45:45
Speaker 2: You feel like underrated?

01:45:47
Speaker 1: You know?

01:45:49
Speaker 2: When you think about underrated, I think you have to think of, Okay, what's the underdog? Sadly he killed in everything he will. I mean, so when you look at what is what is under or over generally speaking, we have to then look at what sales did versus what he did. Maybe maybe the one we find out it was a food poison and game versus the flu game to overcome that and do what he did.

01:46:43
Speaker 1: I ain't mad at that. I get that. Your proudest moment at being with Nike.

01:46:49
Speaker 2: My proudest moment, Oh boy, there have been some moments. Probably my proudest moment at Nike had nothing to do with a shoe. My proudest moment was probably when Matt mister Knight's son passed, and when mister Knight got up, he said, simply, if you have children, make sure you spend time with them. If you don't have children, spend time with a neighbors children. If you don't have neighbors with children, give to organizations that take care of children, because they are our future. Amen. So I think, I mean, when you look at it from a father's standpoint, a grieving father's standpoint, it was about the future state.

01:48:03
Speaker 1: Your favorite signature game of MJ's career.

01:48:08
Speaker 2: Who boy, now that is a tough one. My favorite signature game I've seen them all. That is real, you know. I think my favorite signature moment overcoming the pistons when you've been beat down, beat down for three years. And I said something to him, that's something. I said, Well, man, everybody got sick. Everybody had this. He asked a simple question. Have you ever had anything like that? I said nope. He said, nor have I. And maybe we're holding the world to impossible standards. Just because I can overcome a lot of things, that does not.

01:49:15
Speaker 1: Mean the world can.

01:49:19
Speaker 2: So when you see that, then they go back the next year and win the Breakfast Club, having hop come over, having Pip come over, you know, lifting weights six seven in the morning, having breakfast, then going to practice. That's signature.

01:49:42
Speaker 1: I love that. That's stout. Just probably think the morst Ones can put you on the spot the most. If you could only wear one Jordan model for the rest of your life, which one would it be?

01:49:54
Speaker 2: One?

01:49:55
Speaker 1: Just?

01:49:55
Speaker 2: Well maybe the two? Could they the h white shoes?

01:49:58
Speaker 1: Okay? Why did Nike decide to hire you and what was the deciding factor?

01:50:07
Speaker 2: I have no idea, you know. I think what happens is that when I told you that just recently, let me see it. Within the last six months, I asked John Lucas, why me? Now you have to remember, you know the number one player picked in the draft in the NBA draft. Here's a guy that you know, great tennis play, knew all of these people in the league.

01:50:39
Speaker 1: Why me?

01:50:41
Speaker 2: He said, Well, you want me to ask you that? I said, yes, morals and values the spirit, he said, morals and values. And I asked his sister about the week after that child who had been going with the guy with Kenny. I said, why did you Why did you recommend me for Nike? Now, I this is what Harol said. Now back then in the eighties, I knew it was God's plan for union. And I don't know how to debate that. I said, really, I knew it was God's plan. And Luke now remembered that this. Yeah, they didn't know everything under the sun, but there was something that they all said, hell shuffling down the hall, going to the different rooms. Oh, Whitey coming and I just eat munchies up and we But there was something for whatever reason they saw that they believed in. Nike really never saw me, Kenny, I'm sure told him, Hey this guy blah blah blah bah. I think this guy you sent a resume. They probably talked, they left it. They never.

01:52:11
Speaker 1: Saw me.

01:52:14
Speaker 2: They hire me, So I would assume, hey, East Coastfield rapped, YadA, YadA, YadA. Maybe they just didn't know that they would have an evangelist for their brand, someone that unbenounced to them could carry the meaning of brain. So maybe there are the universe or their eyes when it said when I said, well, maybe it ain't supposed to be no great basketball player. If I was, why would I keep getting hurt that said must not be here for that h So maybe sometimes you just follow the yellow brick road, don't get off where it say no, no trust passing, don't don't get off there, don't go eat the apples over there, stay on the yellow brick. And I think that I've been fortunate that for forty some years that the world, or not the world, but the Nike world, has seen me as something more than just a guy that's there. And I believe in this place. And it's not the selling of anything, it's the belief in everything, yep. And for me around the world, when someone says they can put on that swoosh or they can put on the jump man and say, man, man, what can I do? What can I do? Because if they think H did something, which H hasn't done much of anything. And the significance of surviving a heart transplant, Wow, what does that mean? It means that, in effect you exist because someone else had to leave. I owe a debt of gratitude. I owe a thank you to the universe. I owe a thank you to a drug company that could make a drug so that other people may not have to suffer. That's a big responsibility. And because the little old Lady said, kindness will never go out of style. Even a dog can wag his tail when it passes you on the street. So Nike probably did not know they were hiring me for that. They probably thought they were getting that ex basketball player that is an ex basketball player. They had no idea that they would begetting someone that believe in the simple premise what greatness really is. And I can tell the world this, Matt right on your show. It's pretty simple. You want something in life, have a crystal clear vision. Decide what you're willing to give up or sacrifice. In a world that not many people are willing to give up anything to get what they want, write it down. They say on that twenty percent of the people in the world have written definite positive goals just by writing it down. Hell, you don't surpass eighty percent of the people on the planet. Go out and make it happen. You will fall, you will scrape your knees, you will cry, you will pound the ground. But when you emerge, and I offered my guys asked me last night.

01:57:12
Speaker 1: Wow.

01:57:15
Speaker 2: Wow. Garrett asked me the other day he was on campus. He said, Hey, you one of those apex predators. I said no, because that's dominance, myles, Garrett, that's what you do. I'm emergants I am the transformation of a little boy that struggled to become a decent athlete, to become the one person of a single letter on a uniform, to going to Nike, to being able to help transform and help young people believe that they could be greater than whatever sport they played. We all conclimb the dragon Flies, that only only animal that lived a whole life underwater and a whole life in the air. My movie The dragon Flies is a statement of transformation, not just for H White, but for the world. Thank you, sir.

01:58:46
Speaker 1: I love that when you look back at that first breath to where you sit today, give me one word that will describe your journey.

01:58:56
Speaker 2: Emergence there it is well.

01:58:59
Speaker 1: You appreciate your time, and you're a living legend. You mean so much to so many different people, and we appreciate you sitting down and taking time to share a little bit of your story with us. Man, appreciate you.

01:59:08
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me H White, h the godfather of Nike.

01:59:12
Speaker 1: Man, you guys seen it. You're here with me.

01:59:16
Speaker 2: Man.

01:59:16
Speaker 1: You can catch this on All to Smoke YouTube and the DraftKings Network. We'll see you guys next week.