Book Clubs & Reading Fun with Anne Bogel

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and eighty two, which is first airing at the very beginning of January twenty twenty three. Haven't been able to say that a lot. I suppose it will be getting more of a habit by the time this airs. In this episode, I am going to be interviewing Anne Bogul, who I know a lot of our listeners are already familiar with. She runs a wonderful website called Modern Missus Darcy, which is full of book recommendations along with lifestyle content. She has a great summer reading guide that lots of people can't wait to get their hands on. Every summer. She also hosts a very popular podcast called What Should I Read Next, which aims to answer that perennial question for people who love to read, what should I read Next? So we'll be talking with Ann about mostly how to have a really good book club. I know a lot of people want to get together more with friends, they want to read more. Book clubs seem like a great way to combine them. So if you are thinking of starting a book club this year, or you are in one but would like to take it up a notch, you will definitely want to listen to Anne's advice. So, Sarah, you have in fact started book clubs plural, I believe, right. Yeah, Well, I've been in three book clubs. The first one I did not start, So I guess that was kind of like my template or model of what a book club could be. When I moved to Miami Beach, my sister in law was nice enough to send me an invite to the book club that she was in, and it was a pretty large book club and fairly structured, like well run, and I recognized that book clubs are really really fun. I liked the idea of having a signed reading every once in a while. I liked the excuse to bond with women, I liked talking about books, and I like not talking about books at a book club. So all of those are really really fun. And the best part about that book club was it was often very local and I could all know, even walk sometimes, which was great. Then I decided somewhere in there to start a parenting book club, kind of a spinoff. Now this was not as large at all, and it was meant for couples because we felt like parenting was not something that you know, us as women wanted to talk about alone, but with incorporating our partners, and it was fantastic. I think we had about four couples at its peak, maybe five, where one didn't come very often. But that was it, Like, that's all we were aiming for. We weren't looking to expand. It was almost more of a glorified dinner party club amongst friends where we had a book that we would talk about. It was so much fun. And then I ruined it by well, Covid ruined it, but I also ruined it by moving away. So not that I moved that far, but it just became impractical to make this a regular thing. Although truthfully, we go to Miami Beach all the time, and I have spoken with our good friends about bringing back the book club, so it may actually resurrect itself in the future, the Parenting book Club. And then finally, in my new neighborhood after I moved, I really didn't know a lot of people, and one way in which I felt like I could kill two birds with one stone was to create a book club so that I would have a book club to go to and I could meet more people in my neighborhoods. So I started that last summer, and it has been a little difficult because I'm not sure that my current community has as many readers as my old one did, but it has slowly grown, and I've we've kind of expanded outside of the walls of our immediate community where I live to find interested people. And we've met three times. Two of those times have been at my house, but we do have a fourth meeting schedule not at my house, and every time we've done it, I've had a lot of fun. So I also will say, and I don't know what Ann's gonna say, but a book club does not need to be large to be fun. It could be just like three people doesn't matter. If you like to read and you want an excuse to meet and chat over books with snacks and maybe some wine, then a book club can be a ton of fun. Yeah. Actually, Anne refused to tell me what the right number of people was, and partly because she said there's people who have successful book clubs. I'm putting club in quote marks, where you're basically buddy reading with a friend. You can also have so many people that you wind up having spin off groups from kind of the mothership book club, I guess because it's so large, so it can work in different ways. And I know I've not really been part of a regular book club. It's something that I wouldn't mind being part of. I don't know that I'm going to organize one in my immediate local area personal life, but Sarah and I are hosting a best of both Worlds book club through our Patreon community. We've been having so much fun over the past year and a half getting together regularly virtually with this community, which keeps growing and has a lot of people who comment regularly on our discussion threads, and we thought, well, we'd like to discuss books together as well, So this year, we are going to have the best of both world's book club through our Patreon community. We will discuss four titles over the course of the year, and so if you'd like to be part of that, please come join us. We were having a great time. It isn't the meantime. Yeah, well sorry, what were gonna say? Sarah as to say, I'm super excited. I'm super excited for the Patreon book club. It will be a lot of fun. But in the meantime, let's hear from Ann about how we can have a great book club or take an existing book club up a notch. So Sarah and I are delighted to welcome and Bogel to the program. So An, can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure. My home on the web is Modern Missus Darcy, where I've been blogging since twenty a lie, and when I'm joking, I say I read books for a living, which is a little bit true, not completely, but I do get to talk about the books and reading I love in Modern Missus Darcy book Club on the What Should I Read Next? Podcast? On the blog. I have all the outlets to do, this is my tone, all the outlets to talk about all the books and how did you wind up in this line of work. I'm sure many people are like, well, I would love to read books for a living. Where do I apply? And tell me where I apply? I have bad news the real money that actually you know does buy the groceries. And I have four teenagers. Laura, you have five kids. You know that that is a big deal that you don't get that just from sitting in your favorite chair and opening the book. But still it's fun to it's fun to have to read and hasn't gotten old yet. I was actually working in the legal field when my husband and I had a late night conversation around New Year's where he suggested I start a blog, and I said, well, that's stupid. I don't even read blogs. What are you talking about? But he was a blog reader, and I think he was actually doing some blogging for his job at the time. That was an outlet they were trying, and he persuaded me that that might be a fun, kind of creative outlet that I didn't have in my life back then. Laura, I feel like this is a common story. I had four kids. Everything was insanity, I was working and I didn't really have my own thing, and he thought this could be a good one, so I started writing to strangers on the internet. I didn't even tell my mom about it. For the first four months, nobody knew. I mean, I did really take to it. I really enjoyed it. And it wasn't all about books though at the beginning. That was kind of a direction you went eventually as you got a lot of feedback from your readers. But if I recall back in the early days of modern Missus Darcy, there was more in the lifestyle content space. I mean, how did you sort of feel your way into the book specialty. That's very true and even today, my favorite description of what Missus Darcy is now is it's a lifestyle blog for nerds, but we do have more books than I ever imagine. We'd have the advantage of blogging in your basement when nobody knows that it's you and that you're writing, as you really get to experiment and see what you enjoy writing and what readers enjoy reading. And I found that my favorite kinds of posts were to whether I was talking about the book itself or talking about a topic that I was thinking about in my own life. Is I'd find that if I use the book as a way, in like a way to start the conversation. Hey, I was reading this book and it got me thinking about this thing that's happening right now. I really enjoyed that. I think I really enjoyed that because I have always loved reading, and also it made the conversation that seems so random. Hey, here is why I'm thinking about this topic right now. Let's talk about it. And so that you pivoted from having this book content to I would say being a little bit more focused on it when the podcast launched. Is that sort of when you put your flag on the hill and said, you know, this is the book world. That's so funny because I don't think of it as a hard pivot. I thought of it launching a new project. Yes, we started What Should I Read Next in very early twenty sixteen, which means our seventh anniversary is happening basically right now. I just really liked the idea of doing a podcast, beginning when my friends started podcasting in probably twenty twelve, twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen. But I didn't know what I'd talk about, and we talked with a couple of networks that said, let's make the Modern Missus Darcy Show, and that just didn't interest me because I was already doing that. But I had this idea for it was actually a long running blog series called Literary Matchmaking, where readers would tell me three books they loved, one book they didn't, and what they've been reading lately, and I would recommend three titles they should read next. And I've talked a lot about why that is the format, but I thought I thought that would get us too good recommendations for individual readers, so I ran it as a blog series and just didn't really enjoy the written format. I found myself wanting to have a conversation and it took me an embarrassing long amount of time to realize, Wait, there's a way you can have those conversations. It's called a podcast. This could be fun. But when we met with networks to actually do the show, they said why books and Reading, Like, can we just call it the Modern Missus Darcy Show because that's already your brand? But I guess I had what's the luxury of being able to try something new because it sounded interesting, and that's what we did. And it is true that books and reading did become a lot more of my world and of my paycheck, like when that started in a very real way. Yeah, well, speaking of which, you are now the host of the Modern Missus Darcy book Club as well. Can you tell me a little bit about that part of your business. Yeah, we actually started that. I mean twenty sixteen was a big year. We started that in summer of twenty sixteen. We have always made a really big deal about our summer reading guide and our summer reading season, which again was my husband's idea. Like back in twenty twelve, you get really excited about summer reading, maybe this would be fun for your audience, and so we gave a summer reading guide a try. This is our more private community, private because you get to have the intimate kind conversations you can have when you know a stranger on the internet can't come dive bomb, go up the conversation, say nasty things. So this is our community devoted to classes in conversation and that twenty four to seven literary community where we read books together, we talk about them. We have classes dedicated to their reading life with a community of readers that you really get to know and spend time with. And learn to really I think trust for good conversations that teach you, of course, more about how to be a good reader, but also you can learn so much about yourself and it benefits your life so much when you can actually read a book in such a way that it opens up your world instead of just being a distraction for a few hours. I love escapist reading and it's always good. And also there is more to be found in the pages of books if we want to find it. Yeah, exactly, And I know a lot of our listeners are looking for more good conversations, looking to learn more, get more out of their reading life, and are thinking about starting book clubs. Are already in book clubs, want to take them up a notch, and so we wanted to have you on the program to provide some guidance on that. I mean, first, backing up a little bit, why are book clubs popular? We all know that you can get together with your friends and drink wine in the absence of books, So what is it about adding books that has elevates the group a little bit? Why are they so popular? Well? I have my theory, and I already hinted at it when I was talking about how back in the day, I found that talking about something i'd been reading was a good way in it was my open door to talk about a topic that had been on my mind, that was relevant to my life that I wanted to discuss. And I think that's so true with books in general, and I think that's part of the magic of book clubs. Like you can get together with your friends, and if they're really good friends, you might say, Hey, I'm going to pour my heart and soul out to you and tell you my deepest thoughts and longings and desires and everything that means, and let's explore that together. But if you don't know people very well or even with good friends, like there has to be a certain mood for that to happen. But a book is an invitation to say, hey, like, here's this exploration of love and family and grief and betrayal and longing and redemption, and it's all right there on the pages of the book, so you can talk about those things that really matter, really really easily, really effortlessly, really in a non socially awkward way. I think that's the appeal. We all want to be a little bit less socially awkward. All right, Well, we'll be right back talking more with Anne Bogo of Modern Missus Darcy after this quick break. Well, I am back with Anne talking all things Modern Missus Darcy and book clubs and how we can have good book clubs or better book clubs of we already have one. So nuts and bolts here an, if I am going to start a book club, what should I do? I mean, like, how many people focus? How frequently? Like anything that you've seen best practices with here. The good and the bad news is that your options are infinite. And I say that's good news because you have lots of options. But sometimes people really want a list of instructions to follow and I can't offer you that. One of the things I get to do in my job is talk to readers, like thousands of readers all the time about what has worked in their reading life, what hasn't. We actually hosted a class for the first time in Modern Missus Darcy book club ever this fall. It's been one of our popular requested topics over the years, and we finally did it, and that was how to create a great book club experience, where we talked about hosting in person book clubs and what we did for that event was we gathered four of our team members together and we shared our highs and lows, our book club success stories, and the things that have really bombed and why. And it was really fun to hear, like just a great variety of experiences and what the possibilities are. I think the thing you need to do if you want to start a book club is you need one friend or soon to be friend who's interested in going on this journey with you. Because to have a book club you do need more than one person. And once you have that person, you can decide do we just want to buddy read books and talk about them together while we're going on a walk, you know, like this is the lap we dedicate to catching up on our lives, and this is the lap we dedicate to talking about our latest reads. You can do that. But once you have that first person, just to think about what you want from the club or Lord, you don't even have to go in that order. You can start by thinking what kind of book club you want to have. Like a book club just popped up in my neighborhood, and like you said, neighbors who don't know each other are seeking to get to know each other better and have a reason to gather, and they're going to find their readers, and then they're going to decide what they want their book club to look like. Sometimes it starts from the other direction. Somebody says, you know what, I want to read more literary fiction, or I want to read more romance because my life is really heavy right now, or I want to read more history. But your options are infinite. But I think what you want to think about first is either who you want to spend more time with or what kind of reading experience you're looking to gain. Is there a point where it gets unwieldy the like I mean, if I'm having an in person, they have to fit in my living room. I mean that's sort of a limiting factor. Maybe it can be. I've seen some book clubs split in half, and then that can be a little awkward where everybody decides who goes where. And also I've seen some book clubs fizzle when people couldn't decide how to split. So it's true, but you don't even have a book club yet, So I think it is jumping the gun a little bit to worry about what might happen next. There are some book clubs that are I'm really impressed by this, Laura, because you know that you are a very methodical personality type and I am more free wheeling. But I have friends in book clubs where there are a certain number of seats, there's a waiting list if you want to get in, there's a committee that decides what everybody will read, and there's a set list of questions that does not change from book to book, the same questions every time. I mean, there are book clubs like this, but most people are going to say, Hey, do I have any friends that like to read or could be talked into it if they want to go out when Thursday a month, let's get together and make a plan. Yeah, And is that one Thursday a month kind of rhythm a wise one? I mean, have you seen that as being the most frequent like once a month, or I mean, is there another good rhythm? It depends on the setting. I know that there are a lot of or at least I've talked to a lot of readers who are in workplace book clubs that happen weekly, like Thursdays, the day where we get together and we talk about our business book in the cafeteria for people who are doing it socially. Sometimes it often depends on the stage of life. Monthly is the most common I talk to, but quarterly does happen if people find they're too busy in general to make that feel feasible. And what about folks who are in sort of middling book clubs, Like maybe you've got a book club that's okay, Yeah, is there anything you've seen that helps people maybe take it up a notch? That can be tricky, especially depending on whether or not they are the person in charge. Also, again the good and the bad news is that book clubs, in my observation, do seem to run better when there is someone who can kind of take the helm, who can remind everyone, hey, this is our purpose, and who can say what was the question again, because suddenly we're talking about our kid soccer practices. I think it's really important to make sure everybody knows why they're meeting together, like what is the purpose of this particular book club, because that really helps you decide how you choose books, what topics are fair game, how late you're going to stay, like are you coming to learn more about literature? Are you coming to form deeper connections with friends. Some people start meeting in a book club and that purpose is never stated, and the different book club participants may have different ideas about why they're coming together in the first place, so interrupting in the middle can be tricky. But if your book club has ideally from the outset a purpose, it will make it so much easier to keep it feeling beneficial and enjoyable to everybody involved. And you mentioned that some of your team members had discussed the things that had gone really well, and so you've seen that there's a variety of experience also that things had bombed. I'm wondering if you could share some sort of examples of book club bombing. I'm very curious how that was, how that happens. Well, I'll borrow an example that we shared on a recent What Should I Read Next episode? So this guest knew that like one hundred thousand people are going to listen to her story, so I think I'm okay to share it with you. But she said she'd basically been kicked out a book club for being too intense. So I said, I think it was I think it was Jada Graf. I said, Oh, you have to tell me about what happened, and she's a big reader who gets I mean, she either was an English major or is an English major at heart. That's what I am. I'm an English major at heart, actually an education major. She came to book club and she used the words theme and structure in back to back contributions, and she was stopped by these lovely people that she didn't know super They weren't like great friends, but she knew them socially, and they said, this is not that kind of book club. We don't want to talk about theme. We don't want you to use your words from your school days, like you gotta chill or you gotta leave. And she found another book club where she's very happy. Laura, that's good. A book club where you can argue from the text and support your examples text defendent analysis. All some readers want is like I mean, we joke in our Modern Missus Darcy book Club that we have a strong contingent of readers who get so excited about homework. They want homework, they want worksheets, they want to argue from the text, and then we have plenty of readers who are a lot more casual. But it's important for everybody to know, like what kind of book club are we? Is it welcome here to like ask to be able to flip to page one sixty eight and evaluate this intax that really matters. It's good to know those things. Yes, you don't want to get kicked out of book club now, I would not want to get kicked out of book club. She's took pains to say that it was about book club. They are all still friends. Well that's good. Yeah, I'm glad they were able to move past their differing approaches to studying literature. So choosing books to read. Sarah and I are doing a best of both worlds book club over the course of this coming year with our Patreon community, and we've been trying to figure out, you know, what makes a good book club book? So what does modernists Darcy have to say about a good book club selection? Oh, I have thoughts because it's not the same thing as something that might be an enjoyable read just for you on your own in modern missus Darcy book club, like, we have our purpose in our two guiding lights are we want discoverability for our readers who love to find new books that they might not have come across otherwise and discussibility. I think that discoverability that might not be important to your book club, but I do think discussibility is crucial. You don't want a book where everybody says I liked it and just there's nothing to talk about. You want a book that you can really dig into. So this often looks like controversial books with quirky characters and strange endings. It can look like books where the book club members feel a lot of relatability to the characters. It can be a novel that's a really ambitious where the author is doing things that are unusual, and so you can evaluate like why did the author make those choices and did they actually work. A special category book I always look at for book club is a book with an ambiguous ending that really gives you something to talk about, like, what do you think really happened? Did you like it? What were they doing there? Wait? Are you sure that's what happen? Because I thought that what the author was trying to say, Like, the kinds of things that really give you something to talk about are great selections, because that's what you want. You want a good conversation. Can you give an example or two of some of the best book club discussion books you've seen lately, ooh, the best I've seen lately. Superlatives are so hard, but I will say that I'm an Amertoles fan. I loved Resonsibility. I think that's my favorite. But his new book, The Lincoln Highway, my experience reading it was I loved it for six hundred pages and I hated the last three, really really strongly hated the last three. That's something to talk about in book club. To go back aways with a different genre. Into the woods Bitana French is a I'm trying to think how much do I want to say and what counts as a story. That book has now been out well over ten years, and readers are still debating what happened at the end of the story, or perhaps what didn't happen at the end of the story. A book that makes you mad is often a good book club selection. Books that readers really do not enjoy reading can be redeemed to a certain extent when you bring them to book club, because you can have so much fun talking about a book that disappointed you, that you feel like misled, you manipulated you like it can almost be worth reading. The story because the conversation is so good. It's good when you can redeem something a little bit the time you put into it a little bit. Yeah, I wonder if you have any sort of discussion questions. You know, obviously people be like, well, what did you like about the book or what did you not like about the book? What are some questions that might help get a discussion going, Oh, that's a good question. In my Reading Life book journal, there's actually a spread that has ten questions that work for any book club discussion that I refer to all the time, and I do not have memorized, but I know, just some really personal questions can be good ones that usually I use at the end of the conversation, not a beginning, but like what scene lingers with you? What character did you especially relate to, Like what moment stuck with you? Or was there anything about the book that just like didn't strike you it's realistic or accurate? That can be something interesting to talk about. What does the title mean? Can be an interesting one. And then of course just talking about common themes like what do you think this story had to say about forgiveness or love or what it really means to be a family or can you come back from a choice like that character made? Why did that character make that choice? I think as people were fascinated by why we do the things we do, and instead of having like a really juicy, real life gossip session, you can have kind of the same thing with a novel, and that can be really fun in a book club setting. That's cool, And I'm kind of curious, like what makes a book club end? I mean, I guess you could totally part ways over whether you wish to discuss the syntax on page one sixty or if you're not that kind of book club but I am. And it's often more of a not a bang, but a whimper at the end of a book club life, what tends to be the thing that leads to it falling apart? So we can try to think about how, if we do wish to keep it going, how we might avoid that. I think in stories I've heard from readers, it's a lack of direction from it being either unclear who's responsible for pulling everybody together or for nobody truly being responsible. You know what I keep thinking of through this whole conversation is Priya Parker's book The art of gathering, where she's very explicit about saying like, meetings need a purpose, meetings need a leader, meetings needs someone to set the tone, meetings need expectations to be clear. And if those things are not present in gatherings, then those gatherings aren't as satisfying as they could be, or they don't happen in the first place. And that's just as true for our casual book club gatherings as it is for the big kinds of things that we more often think of as like events. But the club is an event, and it takes an interested person to make it happen. But do you think it's worth doing? I mean, if we have listeners here who are like, you know, I'm thinking about it. I mean, would you recommend trying to start a book club for best of both worlds for readers out there? You know my answers readers, no matter what that mean. We're already committed to doing it. But our listeners like just want to you know, start one with friends or neighbors or colleagues. Oh yeah, definitely, And I think, especially now, I try not to get too reactive from the news, but we know that we're spending more time alone, We're spending less time with friends. These have been a hard couple of years. Why not put something in your life? I mean, lord, this is such a tranquility by Tuesday strategy, Like why not make a decision once and put something in your life that brings you into contact with others and meaningful conversations with others and also prod you to enjoy something that you probably know you like if you're interested in the book club at all, and that is reading. This feels like a big win win all the ways. Absolutely does sound like a win well, and we always end with a love of the week. So something that is going good for us right now, I'll go ahead and start, you know, something book related. I I've said this a million times, but the Kindle App. I know people have whatever with Amazon, but the Kindle app is really great. Like the fact that you could read ebooks on your phone instantly is just amazing, and even more so that you can get them from Libby the library app and go directly into Kendle and not even just books. Sometimes I find myself like I would be scrolling around online and so I was like, well, let me just go over to Libby and see what's there, and sometimes just wind up reading like magazines online that there's a bunch formatted for Kindle that you can just read them, look at the pictures, quick story or whatever, and it just feels like a little bit better than scrolling around randomly on Twitter. Maybe not a ton better, but slightly better. And sometimes that's that's all we really need. So how about you, Ann's what's good for you this week? Oh? I was gonna say Lentsil soups. We have two new Lentsil super recipes. We really love that we've made a lot. I mean, you know it's a winner when your college kid is coming home from school and you're telling your other kids, we can't make that yet, like Jack has to try it. But I feel like that maybe sends the wrong like super healthy image. I try to fuel my body well, but so I feel like I should also add that bringing me joy is the is it fun size or just like jumbo size? I have an enormous bag of peppermint patties in my desk drawer. I don't usually buy myself candy, but it's the holidays and they have these big bags of Yorks that I love so much. So just a couple of times a week I think, like, you know what, I'm in the mood for Peppermint patty because they're my favorite, Laura. And then I remember that I bought myself Summit Target and they're in by drawer waiting for me, and it makes me so happy, and it makes me say celebration. It makes my kids happy because I feel bad not sharing some Does anybody want one of these? And they're like, oh my gosh, who are you? What did you do with our mother? Yes, yes I do awesome, awesome, well, pepperbut patties and Lintel's stew is totally different, different culinary experiences, but probably good all around. So and tell our listeners where they can find you if they would like to learn more about your work. My hub online is modernmissus Darcy dot com, and you can listen to our podcast what Should I Read Next? Wherever you're listening to Best of Both Worlds excellent and i'd add Anne also has some wonderful books as well that don't overthink it is the most recent one? Is that right? It is? It is? It is? And she also has a book of essays called I'd Rather Be Reading, which you should check out as well, and thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. Well, that was awesome. I always love talking to and she has so many great ideas and her command of all the books in the universe is is pretty overwhelmingly amazing. So if you haven't already, please check out What Should I Read next? The podcast and Modern missus Darcy online. So, Sarah, you want to read our question for the week? Yes, So this comes from one of our listeners, and she writes, I'm working on my personal goals for twenty twenty three, but the caveat for my goals is that we might have a baby in the next year, and if my timing works out, I'd be pregnant for most of twenty twenty three. With that in mind, I feel like I'm making two sets of goals, one for pregnancy and one for not. For example, run a ten k is on my list for no baby, but do pregnancy yoga is on the baby list. And how do I make career goals? Am I being too analytical looking at a one year timeline? Be social with colleagues and go to pubs versus don't vomit in my open plan office are similar but different goals here? How do you treat goals and plans when you're looking at years with probable babies. I know a baby might not happen this year, but I'm struggling to get both excited for pushing my fitness and professional life forward versus pushing my family life board. Not in the big picture of work versus family, but in the little picture of actually being pregnant can be hard for a few months, and so is having a newborn and a year it's only made up of twelve months. All true statements. I don't know. I guess it sounds like she's making a good stab at it already that she has two lists of goals. I mean, one is life not pregnant, the other is life if she does, in fact get pregnant this year, I would say that, you know, the since she has already had a baby. Writing this in it sounds like the odds are pretty good that if they're trying for the course of the year, it probably will happen in the course of the year. But of course nothing is ever guaranteed, So yeah, making two sets of goals could be awesome or You could also just make a goals list and understand that you'll modify some of them if they don't work out, but they might still. I mean, there's no reason you couldn't have a big professional goal. Even if you know you got pregnant tomorrow and we're going to be out for the last three months of the year on maternity leave or something like that, that doesn't mean you couldn't achieve it. So I think you want to be careful that you're not stopping yourself from going for things that you want to go for, even if there is a potential pregnancy involved. We never know how life is going to go anyway. I mean, I know we set tons of goals for twenty twenty that then the pandemic totally undermined. It doesn't mean that you can't set goals or that it's a pointless exercise or anything like that. And we can never consider all the contingencies. So I'd say, go ahead, figure out what you want life to look like if a baby happens this year as a big goal, what are some other things you'd like to do or things you might possibly want to change, and just sort of be accepting of that, yeah, or maybe do some sort of like gentle color coding of your list, Like, you know, the ones that are have highlighted in light green are ones that I will maybe table if pregnancy is going to become an issue. I will say I found the post baby years, like the my baby is zero to twelve months to be a little bit more disruptive of my life than the pregnancy years. Now that's me. Everybody is different. I didn't have particularly horrible pregnancies. I mean, the first trimester kind of sucked, but after that I could run that ten k or you know, do whatever I needed to do. And it was actually the first baby year when I wasn't getting much sleep that I felt like I really had to just be easy on myself. But I think going ahead and making the goals knowing that you don't know the timeline of when the baby's going to happen and so many things might be applicable anyway. Or maybe you can also just be gentle with the time frame, so maybe they don't have to be goals for the year, but goals for the year or next couple of years if it feels like next year's you know, going to be a really busy one. Or if you end up with a really tough pregnancy. Yeah, exactly. Although I've had the experience in my life of you know, set really ambitious running goals on like for January and then the pregnancy test was positive on like January tenth. It was just, you know, these things happen, and that's actually an interesting phenomenon, you know, when you are in the active baby making years of like what your time frame is for long term goals and your willingness to sort of commit to that. You know, there's there's an interesting thing to explore with that. And I know I was always thinking about you know, like when books were coming out, or like committing to speeches that were more than a few months ahead of time. You know, what would be the timing with that. So yeah, it's something that does change how you might actually think about life, especially if you wind up having five children. So it's not a one off what experience, experience experience exactly. All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. I interviewed and Bogel, known online as modern Missus Darcy, about how to have the most excellent book club ever. We will be back next week with more on making work in life. Fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.