Jeff McCracken Meets World

00:00:18
Speaker 1: Do you guys play video games at all?

00:00:20
Speaker 2: And not in years?

00:00:21
Speaker 3: No, I haven't played in years either, But I do really like them. I think one of the reasons I don't play currently is because I have a hard time putting them down, and so it's hard for me to play for just like twenty or thirty minutes.

00:00:32
Speaker 4: I want to sit there and play for four hours.

00:00:34
Speaker 5: Right.

00:00:35
Speaker 6: I was good with an A button and a B button. When they added the X button, I was, Nope, too much.

00:00:40
Speaker 4: It's like math. It's like once you start adding in letters.

00:00:44
Speaker 2: What I've done?

00:00:45
Speaker 7: Well?

00:00:45
Speaker 1: Since since we I mean, video games have gotten insane. They are so good and they are so interesting. Yeah, and I was teaching. I was just visiting a friend's school and teaching students and meeting one on one with some students. And I've given this lecture about writing, and then this one of the students was like, have you played some of the really more like experimental, like interesting games, like storytelling games. I'm like no, And he gave me some games, and these blew my mind. But they're great games. But I have to tell you a story about one of them. So, uh, the games like Firewatch, have you heard about this? No, it's like it's a game where you literally just are alone in the woods. You've lost your wife to like early all set Onzhimer's, You've lost your wife in a tragedy, and it's this beautiful video game where you go to be a firewatcher in the woods and you're just there and then like weird things start happening and somebody's talking to you on the radio, so it becomes this like mystery story, but it's really just about getting over the loss of your wife and this like trauma.

00:01:46
Speaker 5: It's beautiful.

00:01:47
Speaker 3: It's like Jerson says, he's played it and he loved its close. The idea of me dying in Alheimer's and being alone.

00:01:55
Speaker 1: Was an accident, was a car you know it was?

00:01:57
Speaker 7: It was anyway.

00:01:58
Speaker 1: Then there's just a matter.

00:01:59
Speaker 4: I'm dead. He's happy, Okay.

00:02:02
Speaker 1: Then there's this incredible game that this student told me about that I played, and this is why I'm talking about it today.

00:02:07
Speaker 7: It's called Gone.

00:02:07
Speaker 1: Home, Okay, and it's the coolest game ever. All you are you just it starts, it drops you off and you are a college student, a young college student, like you know, twenty two year old female coming home to your house. After being away for college and you're coming home to your house and your parents have left a note on the door. Go on, and the note says like, uh, you know, check the messages whatever. It just gives you a little bit of information, and then the whole game is you just figuring out what's happened to your sister and where your parents are and what's happened in the house while you've been gone. And it's set very specifically in nineteen ninety three, I believe, so at one point during this game, all you're doing is you're walking around, you're picking things up, and.

00:02:45
Speaker 7: You're flipping through.

00:02:46
Speaker 1: At one point during this game, there is a TV guide on the table and I in the game, pick it up, flip through it. Boy Meets World is listed as playing that Friday to night, and I lost it. I was like the weird're just like metow moment where I'm like, I am a time, I'm like a college student girl in this game and I'm.

00:03:06
Speaker 7: Looking at my TV show that I was on in the.

00:03:08
Speaker 4: TV Guy as a stage boy.

00:03:10
Speaker 7: It was sod.

00:03:11
Speaker 1: So I actually reached out to the creator because I found you know, I was like, dude, this was the you probably could get a lot of fan letters and stuff, but I just wanted to reach out and say that.

00:03:19
Speaker 7: He wrote back, and he was great. He was like, yoh, yeah, I totally watch moreto.

00:03:22
Speaker 1: So that's why I picked that page in the TV Guy because it was like my show. It was like, the level of detail in this game is so great, you know, And it's basically like this crazy nostalgia trip to like send you back to the nineties and a very similar to Fireworks. Firewatch. It doesn't turn out to be like this big dramatic mystery. It turns out to be a very emotional, wonderful storyline. Highly recommend it.

00:03:45
Speaker 2: But yeah, isn't that a true?

00:03:46
Speaker 6: Well, you know, it's also shooting video games now it's like shooting a movie. So all my friends do this. They're all the top video game actors in the world, and they're in full mo cap. They've got the guns, they're breaking down doors. I mean, it's like you're shooting a film nowadays. So it's I mean, there's so much it's there. Take costs hundreds.

00:04:03
Speaker 1: I mean, the style of shooting is like playing make believe with your friends.

00:04:07
Speaker 7: Yes, you can be anything.

00:04:09
Speaker 1: You can be like a cyborg person or whatever. But and you're just sitting around in giant green suits.

00:04:15
Speaker 7: I love it.

00:04:15
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

00:04:16
Speaker 8: Hi, guys, can I this is a husband of the podcast producer Jensen carp. Can I suggest another video game while you're talking about them?

00:04:23
Speaker 7: Yeah?

00:04:23
Speaker 2: Of course.

00:04:24
Speaker 8: There's a game called untitled Goose Game. Do you guys know about this? You you become just a very angry goose, and you you travel around a farm town and a different neighborhood, and your whole entire job in the game is to annoy residents of the town. As a goose, I love you steal their crops, you steal their clothes, you attack them, you do whatever you see. The entire goal is to cause chaos as a goose.

00:04:53
Speaker 2: Are these all the consoles? Like what?

00:04:57
Speaker 1: I don't think are on consoles? I played them on my computer.

00:05:00
Speaker 8: You go, like a Firewatch, did end up on consoles eventually as like a digital purchase, But they start on PC. But these games all end up on Xbox and PlayStation eventually.

00:05:11
Speaker 4: I don't even own a PC. I couldn't play if I wanted to.

00:05:14
Speaker 2: No, No, I don't.

00:05:15
Speaker 8: Either, anyway, that's my contribution Goose game.

00:05:18
Speaker 3: Love it someone stole that from the Very Serious Goose book. What I can tell do you guys know that book The Serious Goose. Jimmy Kimmel wrote a book called The Serious Serious Goose, and it's all about how this is a very serious goose. Do not even try to make this goose laugh. This goose will not laugh. This goose is very very serious, is strictly business. It shows him reading like a newspaper all about goose news, and it's just a very serious goose.

00:05:47
Speaker 4: And then about halfway through the book, it's like, what's that.

00:05:49
Speaker 3: Oh you think you can get this goose, this goose to laugh. Oh, I don't think so, but go ahead try. And then there's like a mirror page and your kid looks at it and it's like, go ahead, make funny faces, give it a shot.

00:06:00
Speaker 4: This this goose will not giggle.

00:06:02
Speaker 3: And you're supposed to like make all these funny faces and make these sounds. And then it's like see, I told you, And then the goose starts to break and it's like, wait, what's that?

00:06:10
Speaker 4: What is happening?

00:06:11
Speaker 6: What?

00:06:12
Speaker 3: You are a very silly kid. And then the goose ends up, of course, becoming a silly goose and it ends with you will be hearing from our attorneys.

00:06:21
Speaker 4: It's very cute. It's a very cute, just.

00:06:26
Speaker 6: A boy meets World video game where you can play one of our characters. It's like what Sean does after he sneaks. I want to you can if you'd like. I think you could play to Panga.

00:06:37
Speaker 3: Though no, no, I really want to be yasmine bleeth, which actually I would like to tell talk to you guys about. In the episode that we reviewed the Thriller in Philae, I was like, I'm not even in this scene, no memory of it. Well, I'm in the front row. We heard, yeah, yeah, I'm there.

00:06:55
Speaker 4: Never never.

00:07:00
Speaker 3: Ever given a featured shot, never even not a reaction shot. I'm just in the background in apparently the front row. Someone sent me screenshots of me very obviously there. I have less than zero of a memory of any any single part, because you obviously.

00:07:16
Speaker 1: Didn't have any lines, so you were just starting to be there.

00:07:19
Speaker 3: And it was probably a very long shoot because that was a long scene and a ton going on, and so I probably just was asleep behind my eyes.

00:07:26
Speaker 6: And this was also pre you really being a professional wrestling fan. Correct, So had you had this been years later, you would have remembered every single thing that happened.

00:07:35
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

00:07:36
Speaker 3: Had this been ninety nine or even two thousand, I wouldn't have remembered it.

00:07:39
Speaker 6: But I thought you're gonna say Yasmine. Bleath reached out to say she was in fact not on boy me Toyer No.

00:07:46
Speaker 4: I wish. I wish that happened too, but yeah, I don't.

00:07:51
Speaker 3: I somehow managed to forget Vader being there, Robert Gulay Adam kissing yas Me and Bleef, the wrestling moves, you being lifted over Vader's head.

00:07:58
Speaker 4: I just that, so anyway we were there. Memories, yeah, exactly.

00:08:04
Speaker 1: It was not a fun day like I remember it being. I mean, maybe it was, you will, it was, oh my god. I remember it being so overwhelmed and not knowing what was happening. And I don't know if it was what was if anything actually went wrong, or if I was just stressed out, but I just remember it being like, really not great.

00:08:19
Speaker 6: I like the energy of the chaos, because we get that at our live shows, where we don't know what we're doing and we rehearsed for five minutes before we're going to start, and there's something about I don't know what's going to It's like, yeah, I love It's a good.

00:08:32
Speaker 1: Energy to have if you can, if you can bottle it, right, But yeah, man, like I was not comfortable.

00:08:36
Speaker 4: But we probably also shot that in sections. Now we're going to do this chunk.

00:08:41
Speaker 3: Now we're going to do that chunk where what what feels like a long flowing scene is actually taking you four hours to shoot in Mini Chunks, And so that probably added to the stress of the day because you're like, you shoot for an hour and all you've done is a quarter of a page.

00:08:55
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'd also like to maybe propose our new band name being mini Chunks.

00:09:01
Speaker 4: Wait, we have a band, Well, we're going to do soon.

00:09:03
Speaker 2: That was the other thing we talk about.

00:09:04
Speaker 6: Event we're going to do ti Udeo game time Machine band and the band called Minichunks.

00:09:10
Speaker 2: I love it.

00:09:12
Speaker 4: Mini Chunks is not bad and we're all kind of mini right, It's not bad.

00:09:15
Speaker 6: You can it could even be four hour Minichunks if we wanted to get more meta with it.

00:09:19
Speaker 2: But that's kind of sweet.

00:09:21
Speaker 7: It makes me think of vomit.

00:09:23
Speaker 3: Exactly exactly, especially if you say four hour minichunks.

00:09:27
Speaker 4: Now I'm peeking for four hours.

00:09:29
Speaker 2: And ah just like our first album.

00:09:32
Speaker 3: All Right, welcome to Minichunks Meets World. I'm Danielle Fischel, I'm Riger Strong, and I'm Will Fordell. So out of all the names that get repeated here on this podcast week to week, there are a few who, just by their mirror mention, bring a wave of happiness and safety and comfort to the three of us. When you're a child actor, you look to the adults around you, especially those in power, to help you understand this weird world you've entered, and our guest this week was an absolute guiding light. He joined us as a director in season two, a job he was credited with over fifty times through the end of the show, making him the director with the most Boy Meets Worlds in his name, and an executive producer for seasons four through seven. A former US Air Force sergeant, he began his Hollywood career as an actor, appearing in movies like The One Man Jury with Jack Palance and on TV shows like Saint Elsewhere, Thirty Something, and The Hitchhiker. He would eventually find himself working with Michael Jacobs at Disney, where he developed and produced not only Boy Meets World, but Dinosaurs, the torkl Sins, and the award winning movie Quiz Show.

00:10:46
Speaker 2: Oh, I love It's like one of my favorites of all time. That's a great, amazing film.

00:10:51
Speaker 3: He went on to direct episodes of NYPD Blue and Sweet Life of Zach and Cody, Smart Guy, and so much more, and then he started teaching at NYU's Twish School in two thousand and eight.

00:11:01
Speaker 4: But these days he's.

00:11:02
Speaker 3: Living in Connecticut working on incredible original paintings and where I'm assuming he also churns his own butter.

00:11:09
Speaker 2: Okay, but I don't know that for sure.

00:11:11
Speaker 3: Okay, he's so incredible. You guys have seen all of his paintings.

00:11:16
Speaker 6: Yeah, I actually have not what I want one I want, I want, I want one to want.

00:11:21
Speaker 2: Really, I think they're.

00:11:22
Speaker 4: Very hard to get.

00:11:23
Speaker 3: I'm hoping that today we get to like put ourselves to the top of a list or something.

00:11:28
Speaker 6: I think he auctions them for charity. I mean there, he's a legit artist.

00:11:33
Speaker 4: I know, writer, I'm not.

00:11:34
Speaker 3: I can't even get through the rest of this intro without having to show without showing you some.

00:11:38
Speaker 4: Of it because you will love it. Yeah, indile, no big deal, that's just his painting.

00:11:45
Speaker 2: Oh wow, yeah, no, they're amazing.

00:11:47
Speaker 4: That's great, amazing, truly incredible.

00:11:50
Speaker 7: Find them?

00:11:50
Speaker 1: Can I google him?

00:11:51
Speaker 4: Yeah, well he has an Instagram Jeff McCracken art.

00:11:55
Speaker 5: Wow.

00:11:56
Speaker 4: Yes, go to Jeff McCracken art and watch that.

00:11:58
Speaker 3: I mean, I hope this airs after we've already been able to secure ourselves a piece, because now we're going to send so many people to this guys.

00:12:03
Speaker 4: It is unbelievable. And he does a lot of like.

00:12:06
Speaker 3: New York subway pieces of just like real people he sees on the subway.

00:12:11
Speaker 4: It's just absolutely beautiful.

00:12:13
Speaker 3: Okay, Anyway, what a show off this guy, right, he's like good at everything. So we are honored to welcome a very very important person in our lives to this podcast, someone who lives very close to our hearts. Please welcome Jeff McCracken to Pod meets World.

00:12:31
Speaker 5: So good. I'm listening to your podcast, and I gotta say, you guys are just it's well so wonderful to hear you guys recap and talk about your experiences and and you know, now versus then, and it's just, uh, you know, you're basically growing up all over again.

00:12:52
Speaker 1: It's really you must want to jump in at times, right, do you ever want to like?

00:12:55
Speaker 5: That is not what happens to Actually, you know, you guys really pretty spot on. I think some of the other people that like I've probably heard every one of them, and it's wonderful to hear different perspectives from maybe but you know it's it's the Rashaman of the show, you know. Yes, it's really great, really right.

00:13:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, we in your intro, I talked about your incredible art, and I writer was not aware of your Instagram so I was like, I can't even finish this intro without showing him, So I sent him to your Instagram page. I also shared your art Instagram page with all of our with all of our dear listeners.

00:13:35
Speaker 5: That's very sweet things.

00:13:36
Speaker 4: And I see that you have some of your art behind you.

00:13:38
Speaker 9: Are you?

00:13:39
Speaker 4: Are you in your art room?

00:13:41
Speaker 5: I'm in my studio right now.

00:13:42
Speaker 4: Yeah, your studio.

00:13:43
Speaker 5: That's my religioest thing I'm working on right now. I just just started that the other day.

00:13:48
Speaker 2: So yeah, are these for sale? Can we get one of these?

00:13:51
Speaker 5: You know, guys, I you know, here's the thing about the art. You know, it's freely for me. You know, I spent forty years in the business, you know, working for other people, doing this, compromising for that, you know, And so this was really for me. And and I have a curator in New York who wants to represent me and put me in galleries and do shows and stuff. But I told her, look, I only got about thirty thirty five paintings right now, and when I get one hundred paintings, then I'll just release them and you can do whatever you want with them, and then and then I won't have to worry about the business.

00:14:22
Speaker 1: Right for a gallery, you want to still do it for its own sake.

00:14:27
Speaker 5: I want to keep it free and clear for me, you know. Great, And it's just what it is, you know. I'm not I'm not I'm into it for fame or glory or money or anything. I just it's really just for me at this point. It gives me such great pleasure, something I've always wanted to do, as I've always been involved with my entire life, you know, and it fits and starts, you know, in the business. I have no time.

00:14:48
Speaker 6: But but yeah, once again showing your just selfish nature right exactly that you've always had.

00:14:59
Speaker 5: Correct, I'm a narcissist.

00:15:03
Speaker 4: The opposite, the opposite.

00:15:06
Speaker 3: We also mentioned in your intro that you were a sergeant in the Air Force. How did you go from being a sergeant in the Air Force to being an actor?

00:15:15
Speaker 5: Well, it's so funny because it leads right into meeting Michael. I was while I was in the Air Force, I took college courses just to you know, maintain my sanity, and and a one course I was during the Vietnam War. I thought, here's a great way to meet girls, taking an acting class. And so I wanted to be an architect, and so I took an engineering course and an acting class. And the engineering course I found out you needed math, be really good at math or succeeded that. So that was an no go and so uh, but the acting thing was really fun. And even though I was still considered a pig by most of the students because I was in you know, in the Air Force, in the military, I would do these and the teacher, professor named Andrew Heppern, he came up to me and said, at the end of it, you know, you really got something here. Here's what I want you to do. Don't you think about it. I just want you to do this. I want you to go to New York City and go to the Neighborhood Playhouse with Sanford Meisner. Don't think about it, just do it and give it a year see if it's for you. And he said to me, I just went Okay. It was like a light bulb, you know. So then I interviewed with Sandy Meisner, who is the guru of the school from the Group Theater, and he he asked me, he said, so, why you want to be an actor?

00:16:37
Speaker 10: And I'm gonna fail. Yeah, I really don't know. And he said, well, then good, come here in the fall and find out. He didn't want he didn't want a preconceived you know, dialogue or you know, a monologue about why I wanted to be an actor. In fact, Dustin Hoffman had done earlier. He had gone in there and did the whole you know, rigamarar and and Sandy said, no, I can't teach you. You already know everything. You already think you know everything, right, So yeah.

00:17:08
Speaker 3: Well, allow me to name drop some other people who came out of the Neighborhood Playhouse School of Theater. Robert Duval, Alison Janney, Diane Keaton, Christopher Lloyd, Gregory Peck and Grace Kelly just if you alarmed me.

00:17:20
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's an amazing queen to come on, you're the coolest man to ever walk the planet.

00:17:28
Speaker 5: Gregory Peck. No, this this, this was an amazing school and and Sant was an amazing teacher. And we'll get into that. Uh, you know, because I want to talk to you about what, you know, what brought me to you working with you guys, and how and how it informed everything you know and unknown's to you you didn't really know what was going on, but I was like, you know, the marionette player, trying to get behavior from you guys in very surreptitious ways. And you didn't even what was going on because you're kids, you really know, but it was it's it's a one wonderful foundation for approaching the craft and and getting to you know, your truth. So we'll talk more about that. But I but I, you know, I so I went there. They put playhouse and the first class I was in was a you know, the acting class, and there was Michael and uh he was in the class and real quickly he was the cut up, always going for the joke. I wanted to be a serious actor. I mean I was like, you know, that summer I studied James Dean and my brand doing. I was like, I was, I was geared for it, man, And I went in there and I was going to be a serious actor. And here was this Michael Jacobs, always going for the joke, always cracking up, driving the teacher mad. For instance, there was one exercise where you go to independent activity where and Michael's always bouncing around, always bouncing and always you know, a little frenetic. It's just crazy. And the and the teachers that Michael, you've got to learn how to be still. I want you to take this glass of water, and I want you to put your hand, you know, walk fill to the top, and I want you to walk across the room without spilling a drop. That's your independent activity. Do it truthfully. So he's he's he fills the water to the top and he looks around the class and puts his hand over the top of the glass and walks across the room. Michael, that was Michael. You know, he's just absolutely crazy. So and then uh, in speech class, for instance, Uh, the speech teacher would say, we're working on the on the on the consonant are red, and she was going around the room. Everyone was shed go red red red and red red red, and they we get the Michael, he said. She goes red red red, and Michael goes wed wed wed. No no, no, no, no no. And I know what he's doing. I know he's I'm sitting right next to him, and I'm like busting up. And so they go on to the exchange time and time again, and so finally she kicks me out of class for laughing, and there's Michael, you know, again being the cut up. So we had an affinity for each other right off the bat. We would make each other laugh and and and we we became good friends after that and and that's how we met.

00:20:08
Speaker 3: So wow, yeah, yeah, Okay, So I want to get So you're in the neighborhood school. Then from there, how do you get into TV and film? Where does your acting career start?

00:20:19
Speaker 5: Wow? Well, what I it's a real wild story. I am. I was in New York. I was invited back for the second year in their playhouse, and I left her in the second year because my grandmother had gotten sick in California, and so I went out there to she didn't have anybody so I went out to California to take care of her. And when I was out there, I was twenty one.

00:20:47
Speaker 1: Okay, wait two geez.

00:20:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I uh yeah, twenty two. And I went out there and and I was taking care of her. She did the North Hollywood and I was working at this restaurant called Josephine's and uh and it was a great place on Ventura Boulevard, Woodman and Ja Ventura and uh so I am a great bunch of waiters in this place. And h one night, this guy was sitting in the booth with two blonds. It's the Italian guy with two blonds. And I'm looking at this guy, going I know that guy. Oh, that's the loan shark from the guy from Rocky and so, because Rocky had just come out, it was a big hit. And so I walked over to him. I said, hey, you're you're you're from You're in the movie Rocky. He goes, hey, yeah, yeah I am. And so he goes, are you an active kid? They said yeah? He goes, well, what's your background? I said, I which team? Oute neighborhood plaofs Oh, you're a real actor. I go, well, now I don't haven't done anything yet. He goes, well, you want to do something and I was like, okay, right right. He said, no, I want you to be uh in this movie I'm doing with Jack Palance. Come on down in an audition for a small roll one line. We'll get you your card. And I go, okay, you know, I'm like crazy, I'm I'm like, well, how does this gonna work? So next day I show up at this as the studio and I auditioned for the uh the uh the director and he says, kid, I want you to read for the lead in the film opposite Jack and uh. And Joe was like, chart it, We've already cast that role. He goes, I don't care. I want to see this kid read for the lead. And so uh it was the lead psycho. It must have been something that I did. I don't know. Anyway, he goes, uh, go out and improvise the scene with Joe and then come back in and we'll do it. And so I did that with Joe and we did the whole thing and where Pounce beats me up and gets a confession out of me and he hires me on the spot. Yeah, and that's how I got my break.

00:22:39
Speaker 1: Isn't it And somebody goes, I like your luck, kid, I.

00:22:46
Speaker 5: Know it's it was. It's the most Hollywood story. And I still didn't believe it. And then when I was doing the movie, the guys did, Like Tony so Rico from Sopranos, he came up to old Richie Faranji, Oh, he's got to tell you guys, and they kept saying, hey, man, you're phenomenal, You're great. You could an Academy Award for this. And I'm thinking, really, Jesus, wow, I must be. Well, okay, it's cool, but I am you know, I'm not go over my head. And so but you know, you're you have that hope and with Jack Palance and and we had some great scenes together and whatnot. And so I uh, I go to the premiere with my girlfriend. I'm thinking, oh, this is great. This is gonna be phenomenal. And you know, right off the bat, when a movie starts to you go the music in the tone and you're looking at it, You're going, okay, I don't, I don't could be, And then five minutes of the film you realize I'm in the horrible film. Oh no, I mean the worst film probably ever made. So yeah, so and I'm a killer. I'm slashing women and I'm doing I'm sniffing panties and I'm it's just it's the worst thing. I'm telling you. If you ever a chance to watch it, it's pretty it's pretty horrific. But I so anyway, I I I but but that was my my my baptism into Hollywood. And and I never forget it because it was a great it less than humility, understanding the fragility of the business. Yeah, really, did I get a job by after that? No, you know, he made me introducing but it was like a real baptism, you know. And it was really something that was really great for me because it taught me and never take anything for granted.

00:24:21
Speaker 6: So okay, wait, so then I'm not to date you, but I want to get just kind of the time in Hollywood Rocky came out. So this is what seventy seven, seventy right around seventy seven in Hollywood.

00:24:31
Speaker 2: Okay, so dreams still came true in Hollywood at the time.

00:24:35
Speaker 5: No, Yeah, it was only four networks on TV. You know, there was no cable, there was nothing else. There was only four stations on TV No.

00:24:43
Speaker 2: Three in the seventies. Right, Fox wasn't there yet.

00:24:45
Speaker 5: No, Fox wasn't even there, You're right. So Fox wasn't even there yet. So it was really, you know, a whole interesting dynamic. And and to show you that, you know, one of the things that I really want to do feature films. I really, I thought, this is it. And I kept doing auditions and whatnot and and uh, and then I got I got a movie with Linda Blair and played her boyfriend and did some other things. But then I got to play in in in La at the Western Playhouse. It's not the Geffen, and Marshall Mason from their Circle Repertory Theater in New York was directing. And I didn't have my sack, I mean, my equity card yet and it was only an equity only call. So I waited for the all the actors to be seen, and I asked the stage winters, can I can I audition for Marshall Mason And he said, well, I'll ask him, and he did. I read, he gave me the role, and that's how I got my equity card. And then he invited me back in New York City to become a member of Circle Rep. And that's what I did. So I went back to New York. After my Grandma passed away, I went back to New York and I was That's where I started doing a theater at Circle Rep. And that was where I learned that writing is the key. Writing is everything you know when it's on the page and it's not on the stage. And the thing that we did every Friday was reading a original new play and uh with the with then author. There this wonderful repertory company, Bill Hurt, Jeff Daniels, Swuozy Kurtz, Judd Hirsh, I mean, just an amazing bunch of people, just an amazing group, and we would sit there and readis play for the author, and then we would discuss it, and if we liked it, we put up for a called a play in progress. We put on our feet with scripts in hand, and then if we like that, it was sent to a mainstage production. So and Beth Henley, Lanfford, Wilson, Air Gurney, I mean, the John Bishop, the playwrights were just fantastic and and uh so I really got to learn for those three years, I really I did bet. I did plays by Beth Henley and most of all these wonderful playwrights, and and I got to learn how to really work as an actor, you know, on stage and with material, you know, and the process, learned, the process, it was. It was really great.

00:26:59
Speaker 3: And so this is about the early this is the early eighties. You're back in New York.

00:27:03
Speaker 5: Yeah, early eighties. And then I did a play on Broadway. Steve Bashco saw me and brought me back to LA to do this series called Basd Blues, which is about minor league baseball. And I didn't really want to do TV. I really, even with Steve Boshka. I was a singer talking to Steve and in the interview and I said, I don't really know if And here he is, he's got Hill Street Blues. Yeah you know, he's like the king of TV.

00:27:25
Speaker 4: Yeah right.

00:27:25
Speaker 5: And I'm telling him I really don't know if I want to do TV. And he's looking at me smiling, and he's going, I think he should come out to do this.

00:27:31
Speaker 4: She do want to do TV?

00:27:33
Speaker 5: I did that. No, No, I don't know all. In fact, Michael, I was living we were here in an apartment in New York, and I got a script sent to me. I was being sent in scripts all the time for TV, and I kept turning him down. And I because I had done this at m ow in New York called Kent State, and it was about the four kids were killed on May fourth, you know, back in nineteen seventy and and I played one of the kids I got killed. And and uh, they did a lot for my career. People were like took notice of me. And I was kind of what they call hot at the time, and and so they I was meeting everybody for movies. And then so I got the script from the Charles Brothers called Cheers and I opened it and I looked at it and I was it's TV. And Michael said, let me see that the script and he goes, Charles Brothers, it's Jim Burrows.

00:28:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't care.

00:28:29
Speaker 5: I took it and threw it in the waste basket.

00:28:31
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

00:28:34
Speaker 5: That's that's how smart I was. But that's that's the hubris of me, you know. I I I I didn't want to do TV at the time, and uh, Michael thought I was insane. But that's that's what I was, you know, That's what I did. And uh, and so I I am so but I did agree to go out to I. You know, I just got married. I did agree to go out to UH to l A and do Basicity Blues and and I. And it was lasted eight shows, I think before it was canceled. And then and then we had a baby, and they Hollywood Kim kept calling me for you know, bay Watch. You know, the Dukes have had all these shows. They kept offering me all these shows, and I kept saying no, no, no, no no. So finally I got this m ow called Hawaiian Heat.

00:29:21
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love this story, and I thought, you know, this is.

00:29:24
Speaker 5: The m ow. I'll do the m ow's you know, that's okay. And it was about me. And then guy named Bob Guinty is actor Bob Guinty and I were these two cops in Chicago, you know, who tried to escape the cold and crime of Chicago and go to Hawaii and uh and and find out that their crime is still as rampant in Hawaii and it's just a different different climate climate. So so the MW was pretty good, actually it was. It was okay, you know, I liked it. It wasn't offensive. And then they pick it up to go to series and I thought, wait a minute, hold on, hold on baving me a series. I just did the MW I'm gonna doing a TV series.

00:30:00
Speaker 2: I want to do.

00:30:01
Speaker 5: That was the clause. Yeah, this is a pilot.

00:30:05
Speaker 11: I go no, no, no, no, no, no no no, it's just a movie.

00:30:08
Speaker 5: No no no. So Sandy Bresseler, my agent, kept saying to me, now you're stuck. You got to do this, and so you love this. The first script that I got getting on the plane, literally getting on the plane with my wife and new baby was me going undercover and I'm a Chicago cop now growing up to Chicago, Andy Sinkowski, and all of a sudden, I'm going to go undercover to be the top, to compete with the top volleyball players in Hawaii. I mean, never hit a volleyball in my life, because there's a serial killer killing the top volleyball players with exploding volleyball.

00:30:48
Speaker 6: Yeah.

00:30:49
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, oh I love it.

00:30:52
Speaker 5: All of it. Yeah, so imagine.

00:30:57
Speaker 7: The bottom of this exploding volleyball killer.

00:31:00
Speaker 1: Exactly, yes, eight television, I love it. Oh that would actually be a huge hit now, I mean.

00:31:13
Speaker 5: Tongue in cheek, yeah, yeah, exactly. You get Fred Armiston to do it with. You know, Bill Hater.

00:31:19
Speaker 2: There have so many questions about that show. I have to see that now.

00:31:23
Speaker 5: Oh, you have no idea. The second episode was as was Fritz Weaver, a renowned Broadway actor whose guest guest guest on the show because we had to go under again. We had to find out who was killing sacrificing virgins to the Payle in Hawaii, and it turns out he's the guy. He's a curator of Hawaiian museum who's appeasing the god Pele. And literally the virgin in question for this particular episode was the forty year old wife of the producer. So you can imagine eyebrows.

00:32:01
Speaker 12: You know, it sounds like the best show ever made.

00:32:16
Speaker 3: So you're you're in LA with your wife and your new baby. And how do you and Michael now connect? Because the first project you and Michael worked together on his dinosaurs?

00:32:26
Speaker 2: Right right?

00:32:26
Speaker 5: Yeah?

00:32:27
Speaker 4: So how do you.

00:32:28
Speaker 3: Now you're back in LA? When does Michael come to LA? How does he get in touch with you?

00:32:31
Speaker 5: How he wanted? He realized he did a god spell down in Florida. We had an apartment together in l A. And this is before well anyway, kind of timeline was this is before I went back to New York. He went to he went down to Florida do God's Spell as an actor, and then I guess that went okay. But then he realized he was down there when we were living together. He started working on writing this play and he was showing me scenes and I, it's pretty funny, Mike. And it was a play called Cheaters, and and so he kept writing it, working on it, and he went down and did this play, came back and kept writing it, and then got it to Broadway. He got it produced on Broadway, and I, you know, it didn't last long, but he got made on Broadway. So I was like going away by that, you know. And and then from that he got a an offer from al Burton in LA to do Charles in Charge. Okay, some help write him right on be the head writer on Charles in Charge, which Michael did. I guess Michael. I think he. I think he wrote the pilot and everything. I think Michael did that. Yeah, I'm pretty sure anyway, and then the rest is history went from Charlist in Charge to my two dads and then my two days after my two dads was coming to an end. Uh, Disney offered him a major deal that you know, to I'm a great TV for them, huge deal and uh so he did that. And at the same time I was doing uh left Theater in the l A. And I was we formed a Circle Rep branch in l A with a lot of great p David Morris and Chatty Ferrell, all these wonderful people, and and and and then what I did also was I was still acting, and my buddies from the Drosephinus Restaurant had become producers and directors and feature there's a for for their first feature film and asked me to be in it. But and I said great, but I and I helped them get the DP, all the DP, the Cassine record, all these people that I knew from the business. And so they said, you know, you're kind of acting like a producer, you know. And I said, I'm just you know, I'm just doing what I'm doing to help you guys. And so they went great, you know. And then I got this job offer for to do a film with Terry Garr and Sherman McClain up in Seattle, and so I I said, the guys, can I go do that? And then come back and they said absolutely, so I'll be going for like two weeks. So I went up there, and while I was up there, the production had to start because they were going to tear down the baseball statum that we were going to use. The film that they were making was Past Time, One Cup of Coffee, Pastime, and and so, and they were after at Harris to start in the lead role. And I had seen this actor down at South Coast Rep. You know. Robin called me up and Seattle and says, you know, we lost our act. Ed can't do it. He's just coming off the Abyss and he's exhausted. He just can't do the movie. So we need somebody you give any buddy of mine, I said, you know, there's this guy I saw that a South Coast Rep. He's really a good actor. His name's William Russ. You should look him up. He's really good.

00:35:54
Speaker 1: I was trying to remember. I knew you had a connection to Past Time, but I was like when I actually looked it up.

00:36:00
Speaker 7: We were listening to your credits and we.

00:36:01
Speaker 1: Were talking yesterday and I was like, he was in Past Time and I was like, no, he wasn't this connection Yeah, yeah, sense oh.

00:36:10
Speaker 5: Yeah, And so I couldn't come back and do my role in the film because we ran over up in Seattle. So when I came back down, the guys were like out other element and they said, we really need you to come and help us keep producing this film Joe. So I said absolutely, whatever I can do. And then we ran out of money. Uh the budget was for a million and we needed five hundred grand more. So I had a buddy from mine from Hawaiian. He had a stunt double named Shane Dixon who knew ted Night Junior, who came and I said, I arranged the screening where everybody would We added some scenes together, put some music TEP music to it, and then as a fundraiser, you know, to raise some money to keep going and the and this guy at ted Night Junior came up to me afterwards and said how much do you need? And I said, we need five hundred grand. He goes, I'll write to you check tomorrow. Wow, And I was like what. So that was my foray into producing right off the bat, you know, raising money and producing a show. So and that movie went to Sundance, Harvey Weinstein, Merri Max bought it. It was the second year that you know, sexalizing videotapes was the year before us, and he bought us. And they told the director, I want you to change the ending of the movie, and Robinson the Armstrong the director said no, we're not going to do that. We just won the awarded Sundance. Why would I want to change the end of the movie because I don't want the guy to die as Rusty dies in the film, right, And Robin says, I'm not doing it. So Harvey says, well, if you don't do it, I'm gonna take all your p and A, your print and ads, while your advertising, and I'm gonna throw it to this what called Paris is Burning and I'm gonna bear your I'm gonna put you in theaters for a one weekend and then I'm gonna bear it. Can you imagine he bought the film where ten million. I'm thinking to myself, this guy's insane. And so then Robins says to him, well, I'm gonna assue you. And you've never seen a happier look on Harvey Weinstein's face. Certain, really you're gonna assume me? I mean, he was so happy, it was it was like mister. The litigator in him just came out like, oh it's war, buddy, And so Robin would not change the ending of the film, and the film was buried and that's why it didn't get to do it the dessert.

00:38:22
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein guy, Yeah, no, he's a horrible man.

00:38:29
Speaker 7: Question do you do you think that Harvey was right about the ending? Actually?

00:38:33
Speaker 1: Do you think that maybe it would have been because.

00:38:36
Speaker 4: That's what I said, good question, Maybe it.

00:38:41
Speaker 7: Would have been a better movie. I mean, I don't know, what do you think?

00:38:43
Speaker 5: Okay, this is what I did during the ending of that were when we were shooting. I turned to the director and I said, you know, I don't This relationship with him and Didie O'Connell, who is the actress playing his girlfriend, is so wonderful. It's so rich and so great. The movie's premise is that he he mentors a young black pitcher in the nineteen fifties and the minor league team, and his one cup of coffee was tuning up to get back to the majors. That was his that was his deal. Only he was never going to get up back up there. But he had this one pitch that he had that he taught this young Black picture and uh, and then the course of this this this thing when we're dealing with racism, it was a great it's a great little film really, and Rusty is superb.

00:39:23
Speaker 7: I'm sure.

00:39:25
Speaker 5: I mean, I love him. I love him so much. Anyway, So the I said to Robin, you know, maybe you don't we don't kill him. I love this relationship. And he says to me, no, No, David Air, the writer would never allow that. So I went behind his back and called up David Air and said, would you mind if we changed the end of the film. He goes, not at all. I wrote that in college. So I said, rob you know, maybe we don't, you know, And Robbie goes, no, We're not doing that. So he refused, and wow, oh man, does a film standing by on its own? Absolutely, it still shouldn't have been released.

00:40:06
Speaker 7: It should should have been releasing.

00:40:07
Speaker 5: Yeah, that it stay. It's it's just a darker ending. It's it's just a it's a sad ending as opposed to you know, it's an ending with hope, as opposed to an ending that is, you know, a Disney ending.

00:40:17
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, okay, so I have I could listen to you I could listen to these all day, hours and hours, but I know our dear listeners are going to want to get to what do you remember about, then, how the creation of Boy Meets World came together? What let's hear your your Boy meets World origin story?

00:40:47
Speaker 5: All right? So the first show that Michael ever did was this thing called Singer and Sons. And I'm just going to give you a real quick how it led into Boy Meets World. Singer and Sons. Uh. Garthan Seer was ahead of TV at Disney at the time. Garth loved pot belly pigs and he yeah, and he said, Michael, I want you to create a show that features a pot belly pig. Like what green acres? What are we talking about? You figured out? So we had a pitch meeting with Brendon Tartakoff at NBC and and we're going, okay and Michael. And one thing about Michael is he is the consummate salesman his father. Remember when Levi salesman in New Jersey. He learned his trade from his father. Michael could sell you, you know anything.

00:41:35
Speaker 3: My favorite saying is he could sell a ketchup popsicle to a lady in white gloves.

00:41:40
Speaker 2: Yes, that's absolutely true.

00:41:42
Speaker 3: That he could sell a ketchup popsicle to a lady and white gloves and a hearty Yeah.

00:41:46
Speaker 5: Okay. So anyway, so we go in there and Michael pitches the show two guys who lived together with a pot belly.

00:41:54
Speaker 4: Pig the star.

00:41:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's lacing, and Brandon Tarca saying, you're listening and listening and listening. You know, it's interesting, it's interesting. But what if you made the pig a monkey? And I'm sitting there going, this is Brandon tarticle going here, what's happening? And and and Michael goes immediately, yeah, yeah, two guys and a monkey. Okay, so this is a pivot.

00:42:25
Speaker 9: And then he.

00:42:25
Speaker 5: Goes, but wait a minute, what if? What if? What if the monkey was an old Jewish deli owner?

00:42:36
Speaker 4: Michael says that are Brandon.

00:42:40
Speaker 11: And I'm going, did he just just go from pig the monkey Jewish? And then he says, and the guys that work for him are these black guys?

00:42:54
Speaker 5: And I'm going, And so Michael is right on because he's.

00:42:59
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, just yes, and oh my god.

00:43:03
Speaker 5: And we walked on there with sale. You sold it, Yes, he sold it.

00:43:08
Speaker 7: They shot the show. I've actually I went told us this story.

00:43:13
Speaker 1: You can find a whole episodes on and it's not horrible, it's but it's just amazing.

00:43:19
Speaker 5: But the genesis of that was like that was our first show, and I thought, oh my god, you know, and and so then and Don Tronowsky was ahead of the company at the time, and and we had a great office by the way, and I have to mention Don Tronowski and Johnson, Carlos Era, Gon, Bunny Buckley, Yeah, Richie Ardella, Gerald, Richard Della amazing, the most wonderful people anyway. But so so from Cingarete Sons, we then got Dinosaurs. Brian Hanson came into the Jim had just died. It was his idea, and dinosaurs is this whole another story. So I'm on Dinosaurs for two and a half years, you know, for three seasons. And while I'm on Dinosaurs, April Kelly comes in and pitches Boy Meets World, okay, and and Michael loves the idea because it's it's him.

00:44:13
Speaker 7: It's it's so him.

00:44:14
Speaker 5: You know that Ben is him. You know, it's it's like that's it was his conduit to express himself. As a kid, and and and and create the childhood he never had, right, So I was like, wow, okay, and so uh so I remember the contention between Bright April and and Michael a little bit. I remember that, you know, it was it was tough. Michael's very headstrong. When he wants something, He's going to get it. He's he's one of those guys that's said that he thinks he knows everything and better than anybody else. And and it's that kind of humor, it's that kind of confidence that made him forced to recon recon It just was, you know, and and and he cow towed to no one. Really he played the studio, the networks, uh beautifully. I watched him. He was a master at it, really was a master at it. And there's there was no accident. He was you know, I would if I was to say, what was Michael's greatest gift. He's a great hustler. He is a great hustler. But he's also very talented. Yeah, he really is in his in his domain, he's very good. And that's what it is. But so when I first went to the first I was so busy at Donnisaurs and you're gonna killed me that show. But the thing with Boy was I remember that that during the casting process again they had cast Matt McCoy as the father the pilot, and again came up. You know, they weren't happy, and I thought, well, there's this wonderful actor. There's a wonderful actor that I that I love and I just did a film with and Michael has seen it, and he went, sorry, that guy's great to sell. That's what happened. The rest of you came in and and I remember, you know, the casting for I mean, I was in the in on the casting everybody. I was so busy with Dinosaur, so I'm probably the last good person to ask about their real genesis of Boy. I was kind of flying the wall with code of readings. I would go to the run throughs, but not a lot. I would go to the shows for sure. I would always go to the shows. Yeah, and enjoyed it immensely, I always thought. But again I looked at it kind of I kind of poop pooed it. I was kind of looking at it going, well, I'm doing feach because I was brought on with Michael to do feature.

00:46:38
Speaker 4: Films, feature film department, right, yeah.

00:46:41
Speaker 5: Because I just want to there weren't Sundays. And he said, well, come to with Disney and you do the feature film department stuff for my company and I'll do the TV and you know, and you make some money and you can go out and do whatever you want to do. I thought, that's a great, great, great, you know you yeah, you know, opportunity. So I did that, and so the first thing with Singer and sons, and I'm kind of like, okay, and I'm looking for films. And the second thing was Dinosaurs, and I had no time to look for films until finally I did find a film recommended, a documented recommended by Brian Lapan and David Kaplan, writers on staff of Dinosaurs. I said, hey, you should look at this documentary. It was Choiz Show. Yes, wow, that started. But so I was doing Dinosaurs, getting Quiz Show ready to be produced, developing it and then getting it produced, and then as that I was all unfolding, Michael said I want you to come over and direct a Boy Meets World And I thought, I don't know, I'm kind of in my own world here. I'm doing pretty good and the TV nearly just killed me. And I think I want to go just focused on the features now, and he said, no, no, no, come over. And you know, so I came to a couple of tapings. You guys were having such a great time and the show was growing exponentially, and I remember That's what I remember most. I would say to Michael, because we hung on a lot. I would I would give I would ask him about the show, his direction and this, and then he would always ask me what do you think? What do you think? What do you think? And I would I would give my honest opinion. Lots of times I thought it was too joky, or you're going for the joke as opposed to human behavior. You're sacrificing the characters in this, in this scene or this show. And I would be agree honest with him about stuff and and and he would sometimes listen to me and sometimes think I was you know, I didn't know what I was talking about. So so when it came time for this the end of the second season, he said, I want you to go down there and and and and and and direct one. And so I went down there, and I love David Trainer, and uh, although he looked at me and goes, well, are you here, yeah, trail and he goes, I know what you're up to. I go no, no, no, checking things out.

00:48:57
Speaker 6: Man.

00:48:58
Speaker 5: He was very protective of your show. He was so protective. He was like, you know, nobody messed with my cast. Nobody messes with my show. You know.

00:49:07
Speaker 4: He was very protective of us.

00:49:10
Speaker 5: Oh my god, oh he was like was vicious. I was like, no, peace, brother, I love you. But anyway, I trailed and I watched how he worked with you guys, and I watched the rhythm. You know, it was a play. Every it was a play. I was like, this is a play. Every week you're five, it's a four neighb rehearsal. And when you shoot in a fourth day and sometimes but it's you you shoot on the fifth and before live audience. Since this is it's actually pretty cool.

00:49:42
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:49:43
Speaker 5: Now, I'd done his sitcom with Carol Caine as a guest and with the guy who directed me on Broadway, Barnett Coming, and that was fun because but y actor, you walk in, you do your stuff, and you leave, and then's directing was a whole different animal. And I thought, well, because I directed some dinosaurs, and I thought, but this is a different animal. This is a whole different, you know, I guess Dault and so I am. But I I have to be totally honest with you guys. The thing that brought me to it closed, Closed was the closer where you guys. Really absolutely I watched you guys. There was such a purity, such a wonderful that was the innocence. But yeah, well that that goes down with your age. But but your your openness to to to to doing the work. There was no there was no attitude, there was no it was just absolutely let's go.

00:50:49
Speaker 6: You know.

00:50:49
Speaker 5: And and of course then there's Bill Daniels and Rusty and bet shit. Yeah, and I'm thinking, well, I get to work. I get it saying elsewhere Bill Daniels, and you know, I was like, I adore that man. Yeah, so you know I so I said, okay, I want to I'll do this, and and so I directed it. And once I directed it, that was it working with Now Daniel, you were in that episode. But you know, I have to say the first episodes that I was, I was getting my feet wet with Michael mm hmm, because he you know how he works and how he was very hands on extraordinarily you know, and I would The only thing that upset me was when he gave notes and how he gave notes, and and sometimes we're very very uh cruel. But then I realized what he's doing because I talked him about it. And when I realized what he was doing was he was rewriting as he was giving you notes. He was already he's always already rewriting. So so even though he's giving you these these critiques, in his mind, he's figuring out how to make get better, how to make it work. Yeah, because I can't tell you how many times he would spend five ten minutes talking to you about something that disappeared in the.

00:52:09
Speaker 4: Script, right exactly, Yeah, right, yeah.

00:52:12
Speaker 5: So he was rewriting right from the get go and kind of exhausting everybody and being a bit you know, I wish he had taken that, and you know, because there's no other showrunner that works like him that I've encountered. You know, that was that, you know vocal?

00:52:33
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we are in season three of our rewatch now, and we are starting to see the Quarry into Pega relationship really kick into high gear, and we're also seeing the Sean and mister Turner relationship kick into high gear, and with that also a little bit of the air Feene relationships starting to kick into high gear. Do you remember or how much do you remember about the goals coming out of season two and heading into season three, because you almost exclusively directed season three, John Tracy's done. John Tracy did the first one. And then we're gonna start getting into a lot of your episodes, which is just about we entered, we ventured the McCracken era, and so what do you what do you remember about the goals?

00:53:25
Speaker 5: Well, what I remember is is because you know, as I said, our families were very close at the time, and I spent a lot of time with Mike. We rode motorcycles together, We did all tons of stuff together. And anyway, when we did talk about the show, it was it was generally about because he knew one of the one of the things about our relationship at the time in work, our work relationship was he knew where I was coming from. He knew I was a serious actor. He knew I was serious about the craft. He knew I was serious about you know, a moment to moment, you know, living truth in her imaginary circumstances. You know, nothing taking nothing for granted, don't sacrifice the character, you know, being very you know, honoring the truth. And and I think that he he loved that because I gave him a grounding for the characters. And if you watch the show, you guys started to get deeper and deeper that show, what you did with the double Lie. That was the first I directed in the season three.

00:54:36
Speaker 4: Yes episode season.

00:54:39
Speaker 5: And that's and that that show for me, was the beginning I thought of of of where the characters, I mean other there are other episodes where things started to percolate, There's no question, but I thought that was a consummate show for everybody, uh where, where you got to see everybody's future in the show, except for Daniel because she wasn't in the show, but uh and I have to say, and I'm not trying to be a brown noser, but when I did get to direct her, it was just fantastic. You all were so wonderful to work with. I, you know, uh, will to see Will grow from the goofy you know, nut job into a consummate comic and and writer was always you were always the heart of the show. You had this this wonderful sensitivity and you were the goof for the first two seasons, and then to see you grow into this you know this and this especially this episode to where you know, you know you see with you and Tony Quinn was just fantastic. I mean, just and I and I really was so proud of you for that in that scene and uh, you guys worked off each other so brilliantly, just brilliantly, and and I and I just I That's when I knew I had to direct the show is because of scenes like that, of a behavior like that, watching watching like like will you know uh the time was impeccable. One of the funniest guys I've ever worked with. He just has that instinct, that intuition that grew and grew. At first it was a little broad, a little you know, joky, but then he got so deft and so masterful at being able to do it economically, and it was just a joy to watch that growth. Just a seriously a joy to watch that.

00:56:32
Speaker 3: I have to say too, that Double Live script was a Matthew Nelson script and we've had I think only two of them that we've encountered thus far, and they are just superior strips, amazing sp.

00:56:45
Speaker 5: Well, Matt, I saw An Johnson came to our office one day she was working with me, and she said, you've got to see this guy this play in Hollywood. His name is Matt Nelson. You gotta go see this play. He's really good. So I took my and we went to see this play. We hired him that night. Unbelievable, and Matt would really he's a real play right, I mean he really got it, really understood the structure and character and those scenes just you know, short out. So I I'm I'm really proud of that, that that show. In terms of the writing, I think I think everybody did a great job on that, on that on that show, and but the actors, I mean everyone there's it's flawless. It's a flawless episode. Really when I look at boys, really it's really great.

00:57:35
Speaker 4: I'm going to ask you the question we get asked all the time, do you have a favorite episode you directed?

00:57:42
Speaker 5: Well? I do, I love well, obviously, I think everyone loves this show. And then there were Sean. I think we had such a great time making that and even though it really killed me.

00:58:00
Speaker 1: Kill the only time we ever saw you mad, the only time we.

00:58:05
Speaker 3: Ever made you mad honestly. I mean maybe we made you mad privately, but we never knew it. The only time we made you mad, like mad, that we could see like, oh we have crossed a line, and it was it was so we we loved you. We wanted to always be in your good graces. We never wanted to make you mad. It was a sure sign that we had absolutely crossed.

00:58:26
Speaker 4: Into a thing where it was out of our hands.

00:58:28
Speaker 3: Because even after you yelled at us and literally were like, let me know when you're ready to work and stormed off set, the first thing we did was bust up laughing, and it was.

00:58:36
Speaker 4: Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? This is the person we love. Then it was it was.

00:58:45
Speaker 5: Only the clock. It was the clock. It was like, you know, it was someone we shut in Disney World. That's another one that was just an absolute mind bender.

00:58:53
Speaker 4: Oh yes.

00:58:54
Speaker 5: But and then it was sewing though. But this it was such a smart script by Manil. You know, we love that script. I don't think almost a word was changed in the script. Yeah, really, it was a note perfect script. When it came in, Jeff was just you know, he's a film buff and he just nailed it. And and so to be able to, you know, just to pick it apart that everyone said, how are you gonna shoot this? I go, I'll find a way. And so we worked through it and you guys were having such a great time, so much fun to de link itself to that. It was just so much fun. You know.

00:59:25
Speaker 3: We had Manel on the show, and one of my favorite stories we've heard from anybody who's come on the podcast was that he got They were like, all right, here's a great idea, Manel, you're going to write this script. And he wrote it in like less than twenty four hours, but then had to pretend it took him the whole time, so it has the st coming.

00:59:40
Speaker 2: He's like, oh working, really really done.

00:59:44
Speaker 4: Yeah, still working.

00:59:46
Speaker 6: Do you, by any chance remember the name of the actor that played the gender that killed people.

00:59:56
Speaker 13: Jenner?

00:59:56
Speaker 4: He was a background actor.

00:59:58
Speaker 6: Yeah I know, yeah, No, no one can remember this man's name.

01:00:02
Speaker 5: Frank Frank Lowry Frank.

01:00:08
Speaker 4: Writing it down. We're going to start looking.

01:00:10
Speaker 5: I think his name is Frank Lowry.

01:00:12
Speaker 4: Frank sounds right, Frank does sound right?

01:00:14
Speaker 2: Then if you just pulled that name out.

01:00:19
Speaker 4: After we're going to search, we're gonna its.

01:00:23
Speaker 5: Lowry low low frank something. It was kind of a low l O w R Y. I don't I don't know the exact spelling, but if you have Sally Steiner.

01:00:37
Speaker 4: We did. She did not know.

01:00:39
Speaker 2: Neither did and didn't know.

01:00:43
Speaker 5: Well.

01:00:44
Speaker 1: The tricky part is we had had a janitor Bud Yeah, yeah, a couple of times season two, but.

01:00:51
Speaker 5: This was this is a one time because of his look, cast totally because of his look.

01:00:58
Speaker 3: Okay, so, and then there was Sean is your favorite like all of our.

01:01:02
Speaker 5: Yeah, but then the Long Walk to Pittsburgh Did it end up actually be part that we did? And both those shows that I have a real affinity for that show because you and Ben were just so excuse me.

01:01:26
Speaker 9: It was, it was and and it just had a it had.

01:01:30
Speaker 5: A cinematic feel to it. I don't know what it was it had. It had a tone and a value that was really fun to work on with you guys. You know, and you know, one of the things is that's interesting too with working with you. You know, my my principal job was to make a safe set for you guys.

01:01:48
Speaker 6: That was it.

01:01:48
Speaker 9: You know.

01:01:49
Speaker 5: I I was a you know, people kind of be quite directors. So sometimes traffic cops, you know. But but I think what's really important it was what we did together on that on that set was was create First of all, you know, getting to know you personally wasn't really in the cards because you were either in school or on the set, you know, or home. And and but I we hung out enough to I I'm curious to see what you guys think. When we would would get to the set after the table read, what do you remember is the first thing we would do with me? Do you remember?

01:02:29
Speaker 4: I thought we would read the scene.

01:02:31
Speaker 3: We'd read it before, we'd start with put it on its feet, we'd read it.

01:02:35
Speaker 4: We read it out loud.

01:02:36
Speaker 3: And then what I remember is that you always asked us what we thought we should do. Where do you want to start? Because I'd go like, okay, where do you want me? And you'd be like, no, yeah, yep, where do you Where.

01:02:46
Speaker 4: Do you want to start? Let's try it?

01:02:47
Speaker 1: And there was this absolute sense of comfort, like yeah, we could do no wrong, like there was no there was no right or wrong, there was just well, there's the words on the scene. We got to figure this out. So let's all together as a team figure this out out. And we owned it. And you were there to like just guide us and help us. And then yeah, I remember blocking was always so easy with you, like.

01:03:11
Speaker 4: It was all.

01:03:11
Speaker 1: It was never like stand over here, get over there. It was always like we were coming up with it ourselves, with you in discussion. And I could feel that even like we just watched the Double Lie episode, I could feel the blocking like it was being driven. It was being the scene with Tony especially. I was watching how we were moving, and I was like, we are, we are the blocking is being driven by the internal emotion in any way as naturally it's natural, and it's it's feels. It suddenly felt like a different show. And I know that that was because of you, because there was a sense of freedom and confidence that we were getting. And you know, we were also just getting older, and the writing was I mean a lot of factors, but but I could tell the blocking just had this different motivation behind it, you know. And that's what I remember feeling, is like that we were guiding it.

01:04:01
Speaker 12: You know.

01:04:02
Speaker 2: It was it felt like a play and it shows. It absolutely shows on camera.

01:04:06
Speaker 6: I mean every single time, this is what the second or third of your episodes that you've done so far, second and there are times where we've talked about where there's a comfortability that came from I remember a couple of my scenes being like, well I felt more natural there. And then somebody, either writer danielle'll be like, oh this was a McCrackan emisode. It's like, oh that's right, Oh that's right. Because we love David Traynor. Nothing against David Trainer is a wonderful director. He was amazing, but he was he was more a you know, I was more afraid of David Trainer by Trainer than I was of you you. And again it wasn't a bad thing. Trainer was is a great guy and was you know, will be my first sitcom director ever, and you always forget your first. I always remember your first. But with you, it was exactly what Ryder said. It's like we would get there and it felt like a company. Yeah, that make me like an acting company. And it's like, here's the show we're gonna do this week, as opposed to all right, go stand over there, you come down the thing. Here, you go, hit your mark, hit your line. It was just yeah, it was it was different. You made you you, You made it more of a sense of a team if that means.

01:05:13
Speaker 5: That's great. Guys. You know, that makes me feel so good because it's exactly what I wanted to provide for you. Guys. We were always talking about motivation and motivation. You're and I and when I watch you. The reason why I give you that freedom is I would watch your instincts. Instincts don't lie, you know, and you're You guys were open vessels. I mean, so you knew your characters. You knew you know, we would read the scene. If we had any questions, we talk about it. But there was this innate sense of when I said, let's okay, let's put up on his feet, you always, you know, I always you know? Is you guys direct? So you got to understand blocking and for camera and this and that sometimes you have to you know, steer things in certain ways so that you're getting your coverage correctly. But bottom line was, I would watch you and we'd get up there, and you would always go to exactly where I thought you should be. It was uncanny, It was so uncanny. You guys knew where you belonged in a way, and if I need to nudge you a certain way or do this, it would be a question of you know, what's your intention? What do you want? You know, what do you want to do to him? When you guys were great listeners too, you know, that's the whole hour of acting is listening. And you guys really started to You were really listening to each other. You weren't going for the joke. You were listening to each other, and your timing improved because of it, especially Will you, You and FEOENI were sterical because you guys you really were working off each other, like yeah, you know, you were working off each other beautifully.

01:06:41
Speaker 6: I think there's something something that was a great combination about starting with David Trainer than having you come in, because there's something about David gave me the technical side of it, like it was. It was that kind of the class that I took was the technical side of being on a sitcom and exactly, and then you came in and kind of gave.

01:07:02
Speaker 2: It the soul if that made sense, where it's like, all.

01:07:04
Speaker 6: Right, that's in your feet, now let's see where you can actually go with it.

01:07:08
Speaker 5: And David Trainer really said the template. I mean I watched him create that amidst dealing with Michael. You know this this was a real you know, tag team. And I also mentioned someone else who is in absolutely vital to the success of this company. It was Bob Young. Vital. He ran Dinosaurs for two and a half years for Michael. He was there for Boy Meets Rule and every we we had six seven shows on the airge sometimes, you know, it was the same. So if it weren't for Bob Young, Michael would not have succeeded. And I'm telling you that Boby Young is the reason that he gave Michael the stability and the ability to navigate everything. I really mean there he's an amazing person, you know, and and humble and doesn't he's just amusing.

01:08:01
Speaker 3: Well, you saw us grow up throughout the series. I mean you really saw us. I was twelve when we started, nineteen when we ended. Writer you know writers a year and a half older than me, and Will four years older than me. So you really, I mean we were all teenagers when we started, or not even quite, and then saw us all the way through our twenties. Do you have we talked about how fun, how much fun we were having on and then there was Sean. But do you have any personal favorite memories of each one of us from your time, especially season three and four, where you were there almost every single day directing almost every single episode of those two seasons.

01:08:38
Speaker 5: Well, as I mentioned, you know the characters. You know, Ben was amazing. I have to my hat's off to him too, because to watch him work as fast as he did.

01:08:57
Speaker 2: He carried us.

01:08:57
Speaker 5: He totally carried us. Yeah, you know that that boy would man now future congressman. I just look at him when he was and I was, I was awestruck by him. I I you know, I knew he was Michael's muse, and I knew that he was the extension of Michael's comic timing and you know, the whole dynamic. But he he really, you know, as the anchor of the show. He just carried it. And I I was in awe of that. And sometimes he was a challenge to work with, you know, with these attention and this and that. But but he always showed up. I mean he always delivered. Yeah. And and what was great was there was no ego at work. There was no I'm better than anybody else. I mean, it's my opinion of our impression of him was that he was in that zone and he was generous. Uh, in those scenes with writer. He was very generous, you know, with you and and and you guys were equal footing. It was totally fifty to fifty. There was no I'm I'm the star of the show. He never pulled that that I saw ever, and and uh, and he could have easily, you know, but he didn't. As far as I'm concerned, I hadn't. I never saw it. Sometimes he would joke about it, but but but it was never something that he would you know, act on. And so, you know, Ben, watching him carry the show was was it was amazing to me and and and I think in all of the episodes I were directly. I only got really mad at him once, you know, in terms of his attention. He was just eighty One day. I just went to Ben, stop it.

01:10:46
Speaker 3: You know, he had that same Michael Jacobs and talked about.

01:10:51
Speaker 5: From absolutely you know, and uh and and and you know so but he's yeah, he was amazing and and uh when and when Michael would get him to do certain things that were to me a little too jokey or too crazy. You know, Michael comes from the text Avery, you know, Order Brothers cartoon sensibility. That's that's Michael. You know, he's mister Looney Tune and so, and he loves that stuff and he loves to go for the broad joke like like they want you to take the roles, you know.

01:11:22
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, absolutely classic.

01:11:25
Speaker 5: I mean there's no better you know, there's no better moment or or when you guys do the together, you know, I mean those are classic Michael moments. And so I get it. I enjoyed it, you know, and and then carried it off, you know, and everyone did really when when when it came time to it? So back to your question, Daniel, Sorry, I'm digressing. I'm trying to.

01:11:47
Speaker 3: It's okay if you don't have any memories.

01:11:50
Speaker 5: Are there's there's there's there's like four that are really that I always have fun with one. I don't know. Will if you remember the bear episode where oh god, there we had a bear? You had the Wilderness show.

01:12:05
Speaker 2: In the Wilderness Store.

01:12:07
Speaker 5: Yes, and and I love Trainer of Fools. I mean there's so many, there's so many episodes with so many great things with you.

01:12:13
Speaker 1: But the bear thing, I do not remember that there was ever. I remember a bear in the Civil War episode, but I don't remember.

01:12:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we had a bear in the in the Wilderness store too with.

01:12:26
Speaker 5: I don't remember, but the trainer came in and he had one arm, you know, and it was like so so bloody funny and you and there's a moment where you're you go up to the bear and the bear opens his mouth and he growls at you, and we put a fan and your hair is blowing. And there's like moments like that that you know that just still tickle me to death, you know. And then there's the moments with Danielle and Ben that I just my heart melts. I just my heart just melts watching them go through the the angst of the relationship up and that the care. I mean, you guys just were so wonderful together. So you know that that that dynamic was was so precious to me and I and I uh, and the way you carried off with such you know, authenticity and and and truth, I I just uh and vulnerability, oh my god. And you were always mother Earth. You were always the voice of reason, the one who's basically you know. And I think the episode where you you toy it was uh, when you visit the Art Museum with.

01:13:34
Speaker 4: The starry night night that I think was.

01:13:38
Speaker 5: My favorite episode with you.

01:13:41
Speaker 4: You were you.

01:13:42
Speaker 5: Were so good in that episode. You know, you're juggling both Corey and your feelings for him versus this new boy. It's just great. Yeah. So you know, I can go on and on.

01:13:55
Speaker 7: You know what, I have.

01:13:55
Speaker 1: I have memories of you and I and it's it's been interesting to get older and and to be able to acknowledge that you, probably more than anybody in my life, especially at that time, helped me in my career outside of Boy Meets World in a variety of ways, and no one else did that. You reached outside of the show. I produced a friend's album and you hooked us up with producers and tried to help.

01:14:30
Speaker 7: It was just my friend, but you were like you did.

01:14:32
Speaker 1: My parents at one point optioned a script that they thought would be good for me and my brother, and you hooked us up with other producers. You like actively helped my career and like I don't, I didn't. I just thought that that was like what people didn't but like nobody does that.

01:14:47
Speaker 7: You did that. You were so you were just so supportive in all the ways.

01:14:51
Speaker 2: You know, it wasn't just about movie. You're the writer, You're the one who reminded me of that.

01:14:56
Speaker 1: It was It wasn't It was about you just had no ego about it. You just wanting to create great art. And you were helping us not just to do the episodes and to do the show, but in our lives outside of the show, and man, like that's just I love you for that.

01:15:11
Speaker 3: Like yeah, And that continued on decades after the show ended. When I applied for my master's degree to Chapman, it just so happened Jeff was directing, not directing, Jeff was teaching at Chapman, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm I'm applying for my master's degree. Could you write me a letter of recommendation? He was like, not only will I write you a letter of recommendation, but come to the come to the university, let's walk around, let's get lunch. I mean that was you know, that was fifteen years after Boy Meets World had ended.

01:15:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, let me put in perspective for you guys. You know, I had three kids, but the same ages, a little bit younger than you guys. You know, being on that show as long as I was for seven years with you guys, you know, off and on you know you were my kids. How dd felt it. We all felt that way. You really watched you grow up and you know, and you were such great people. I mean, and I have to say also with Michael's credit, you know he casts correctly in the sense that he also auditioned the Pearents.

01:16:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yep.

01:16:15
Speaker 5: You know it was. It was an amazing thing to see, you know, how great parents everybody had.

01:16:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.

01:16:23
Speaker 6: My favorite story about you, I've told this before on the podcast. It just to me sums you up so well is the week where I think it was the weather Man episode and I had to cut my hair, yes, and we and I did not want to cut my hair, and the it was a network note and the network's like, you got to cut your hair and I didn't want to do it. And I didn't want to do it, and you felt so bad that you sent me back to get my hair cut. And you came to the set the next day because you had long hair too, and your hair looked weird.

01:16:56
Speaker 2: And I was like, what did you do? And You're like, well, I cut off my hair and I'm like, what do you mean. You're like to you know, you had to do it, so I did, and I went, well, who cut your hair?

01:17:03
Speaker 13: You're like I did, And so you went home that night and cut your own hair off to make me feel better about having to cut my hair.

01:17:14
Speaker 2: To me, it's just it's the ultimate Jeff McCracken story. It's like the ultimate moment. You didn't even go get a haircut.

01:17:20
Speaker 6: You grabbed a pair of scissors and you cut off your hair in solidarity with me.

01:17:26
Speaker 2: It's who does that? I mean, who does that? It's amazing to me, amazing.

01:17:30
Speaker 5: You know what you do, what you gotta do.

01:17:33
Speaker 4: Do you still do stuff like that for the dinosaurs? I just wanted to know, you know, all died. Did you be honest at the time.

01:17:50
Speaker 3: Did you ever think while working on Boy Meets World that someday, thirty years from now there would still be this kind of interest in the show?

01:18:00
Speaker 5: It's you would No, No, I mean I don't think so now, could anyone?

01:18:05
Speaker 12: Right?

01:18:06
Speaker 6: No?

01:18:06
Speaker 5: No, No, you guys have resurrected in a lot of ways too. I mean there's a I saw you guys in Hartford a year ago. You know, your your your convention, and it was so great to see the outpouring of love and fandom that you guys have created it's it's it's a it's a it's a magical thing. I I I. Yeah, it was a seminal, seminal, seminal time in our culture that this show existed, and and UH has given life to you know so much. I mean, it's in its values they're still holding strong. I think that's the thing about the show too. It's it really found a beating heart that I think people really identify with.

01:18:51
Speaker 6: Have you heard my fellow I'm sorry, but if you've heard my fellow UH hosts here talking about our beautiful nut makes state you mentioned Hartford.

01:18:59
Speaker 2: Have you heard about what's going on over here?

01:19:02
Speaker 12: Did your soup can pick up what they've been talking about?

01:19:07
Speaker 2: Beautiful his computer to keep it calling right now? This is what I deal with. This is what I deal with.

01:19:22
Speaker 6: God shout out to the people watching on the one we.

01:19:25
Speaker 4: Talked about his art.

01:19:26
Speaker 3: It's incredible what he's able to do on leaves since they don't have candas.

01:19:30
Speaker 2: Exactly what you can do by candlelight.

01:19:32
Speaker 4: Thanks you, it's so great, somaiting.

01:19:37
Speaker 2: Their light is the only Connecticut is beautiful.

01:19:40
Speaker 5: It's perfect light.

01:19:42
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, looking back, it's now where this is the This is the year of the thirtieth anniversary of the start of Boy Meets World. How when you think about it, how do you sum up that time of your life and what does it mean to you?

01:19:59
Speaker 5: Well, you know, as I that I wasn't a sitcom fan. I didn't really want to do it, you know, but then jumping into into the water with you guys was was was probably one of the finest things I've ever done creatively, emotionally, and and I think that you know, it's a it's a It was my biggest lesson. When the door opens, walk through it, you know, don't don't don't you know, I don't judge you know too much, because you'll judge yourself right out of the out of the game. I've done that, you know, on many occasions. So I thank god I had, you know, Michael had the wherewithal to ask me and and and push me into it and and and gave me that chance. It was. It was an amazing experience.

01:20:48
Speaker 3: Working with you well likewise for all of us, and you have continued to be an influential, impactful, meaningful, absolute, lutely, deeply sincerely loved person in our lives. And we are just beyond lucky to have you. Also, we absolutely have to have you back on this podcast to talk about when we when we come upon episodes, specific episodes that you directed, if you would do us the honor, we would love to have you back to talk through those episodes, to do some recaps with us, to tell us your thoughts on them and and your memories. You're just you are one of the people that, like we hope to have as a you know, regular contributor to this podcast for the next couple of seasons since you are such an expert.

01:21:38
Speaker 5: That's very sweet and more happy to do that really great. Anytime, anytime I can just spell with you, guys is.

01:21:44
Speaker 3: Golden so well we feel the same way. We love you, Jeff, Yeah.

01:21:50
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I just love you.

01:21:54
Speaker 2: Thank you for being back, guys.

01:21:56
Speaker 5: Take care, Take care.

01:21:57
Speaker 3: Jeff, I managed to make it through the episode without tears falling, but just some welling writer or I feel like you wanted to say something but you didn't say it.

01:22:06
Speaker 4: What did yeah to Jeff? Just I know, I mean no.

01:22:10
Speaker 1: I had to stop myself because I was going to start crying when I was sorry.

01:22:13
Speaker 6: He's just you don't realize how important he was until you really start to think, I mean he's I mean, it's just he was so important to everything that happened with us on the show and to us and to who he became as people.

01:22:28
Speaker 2: I mean, he was just but he just had no ego about it. Nothing that he still doesn't.

01:22:33
Speaker 1: It's just he just I mean that he's my hero, you know, like my hero in how he is as a person and autistically and and he never made me He just always made me feel like that.

01:22:47
Speaker 7: Was the way he wanted it.

01:22:48
Speaker 1: You know, he wanted to just be there and wanted to help. And in retrospect, like, like I said to him, nobody else did that.

01:22:54
Speaker 2: Like nobody else on.

01:22:56
Speaker 1: Boy Meets World ever helped my career outside of Boy Meets Work.

01:23:00
Speaker 4: Isn't that interesting?

01:23:00
Speaker 2: Like yeah, why not?

01:23:02
Speaker 1: And you can tell that he's done that his entire life. He's like, well what about this actor I work with?

01:23:05
Speaker 7: What about this?

01:23:06
Speaker 1: But he connects other people, he has a sense of community and help and support and like it's just it's beautiful.

01:23:13
Speaker 6: But when he starts his story with and my grandmother was sick and she had nobody, so I moved out.

01:23:17
Speaker 1: You're like twenty one years old.

01:23:19
Speaker 2: Of course, of course, of course you did, like, that's yeah, that's you.

01:23:22
Speaker 6: I mean, it's just yeah, he's he's one of the most beautiful human beings I've ever met in my life. And that is not hyberbally He's no's incredible. Yeah, it's uh yeah what He's an amazing.

01:23:33
Speaker 2: Man, really is.

01:23:35
Speaker 4: Well.

01:23:35
Speaker 3: Thank you all for joining us for this episode of Pod Meets World. You can follow us on Instagram pod Meets World Show. You can send us your emails pod Meets World Show at gmail dot com, and we have merch.

01:23:45
Speaker 2: Merch is even available in Connecticut.

01:23:50
Speaker 3: Pod Meetsworldshow dot com writer send us out.

01:23:53
Speaker 7: We love you all, pod dismissed.

01:23:56
Speaker 1: Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted by daniel Official, Wilfredell and Ryder Strong. Executive producers Jensen Karp and Amy Sugarman, Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo, producer and editor, Tara Sudbach, producer, Jackie Rodriguez, engineer and Boy Meets World superfan Easton Allen. Our theme song is by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. You can follow us on Instagram at podmets World Show, or send us an email at Podmeats World Show at gmail dot com.