Little Women with Debra DiGiovanni

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Speaker 1: Jamie. We've got an episode coming up for everyone about Little Women. Very excited. But first we wanted to tell you about a tour we're taking in January. I believe it. We were doing three cities to start January twenty second, we'll be in San Francisco for s F Sketch Fest at the Gateway Theater and we'renna be covering The Social Network because we're covering kind of moody, broody, dark movies on this tour. And wow, how appropriate that we're doing the Social Network in San Francisco, the tech capital on purpose? Wait? How smart of Then on January we will be in New York City I ever heard of it for the Brooklyn Podcast Festival at the Bellhouse. We're returning to the Bellhouse and we'll be covering Black Swan. Wait, Caitlin, that movie takes place in New York. The amount of foresight have given this. And then on January will be in Philadelphia at Good Good Comedy Theater, returning one of our favorite places, and we'll be covering The Sixth Sense. Hold on, where is that movie? It's incredible? Uh. You can get more details and ticket links on our website at bechtelcast dot com and click on the live tab. Uh and I will also be doing a small tour of those same cities solo in February, so go to those shows. Two. Oh my gosh, where do people go to find information about that? They'll also be listed on bechtelcast dot com or you can go to Jamie loftus is Innocent dot com. Incredible. Well, yeah, see you there everybody you don Oh and uh, one last thing, I have a side pod ever heard of it coming out on January onet. Uh. It's called Mayer and Mensa. So it's based on I mean, kayl and you were present for all all of the related trauma. But it's about the eighteen months that I spent in MENSA where I started by taking the test as a joke and then ended up basically getting attempted red pills by uh sort of sinister dark mens A Facebook group and uh ended up going to Phoenix and getting yelled at for three consecutive days. But it's about my experience, and it's also about the history of i Q organizations and kind of that sinister backstory. So if that's something that you've seen me tweeting incessantly about for the last year and a half and you're interested. It's called my Ear in Mensa. You can find it on all of your podcasting platforms, and I hope you'll listen. It was a nightmare and uh if if you listen, it wouldn't have been a waste of time. All right, That's all I had to say. On the dodcast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. I'm Jamie Loftus. WHOA Sorry, Okay, I don't know something's going on with me. My body has been really reacting crazy ways to almost everything this past week. I'm so sorry. No, it's it's exciting. It's exciting. I'm on the edge of my seat. Who knows what will happen next? And that conversation past the Bechtel test. Yeah, the fickleness of the human body. It's a genderless discussion. Yeah, because what we do here on this podcast is talk about the representation. Oh my god, now I'm it's contagious. So also, I'm so sorry it's contagious. You'll lose your ability to speak. Three, the representation of women in film, not just women, also women that are little big like little women women maybe not as big as you would expect. They'll be big someday, sure, I like, except for the one that dies. Of course, spoiler alert, one never gets big. One's stays little in our memories forever true. Anyway, So these women and sometimes they're little, or what we talked about on the podcast, using the Bechdel test or sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test as a jumping off point to initiate a larger conversation, And that of course requires that to little little women who have names, who have little names, little things, most of them are nicknames. They must go my nicknames, and they must speak to each other about something other than a man named Lori. I know, and it is hard not to. I understand why it's difficult to not talk about Lorie. Sometimes I understand. Lori is my mom's name. I know. I was thinking, just what's your mom's take on Lorie? How is how do you she feel? He is a reflection on the Loria community. You know, i'd have to ask her. I don't I don't know. I should have should have done my research. I'll text her right now. Yes, I would love to hear. So. Yes, we are talking about Little Women. We had to we must the new ones about to drop. So we're talking about the one from ninety four, directed by Jillian Armstrong. That's the you know, the famous Winona writer Christian Bale. Susan so Randon ever heard of her? Yes, Claire Dane, Yes, Maeric Stoltz is in the movie. Kirsten Dunce is. Another woman is in the movie, and we don't know who she is, but we like her work in this movie. Meg Meg, Yeah, I never saw her again, but she is alive. Treney Alvarado, Yes she was. She was so talent. Everyone in this movie so talented. Everyone in the new movie is so talented, except for maybe Emma Watson, who's who's American accent? Did you hear her American accent? It's not great, It's like, and there's no excuse because is doing is fine and Florence Pew's doing just fine. And then Emma Watson's turned to speak and you're like, well, maybe let's scale back the part, but she's she's nice. These are my little takes anyways, little takes corner. We've got a guest. She's the best, the best, first, the best. She used a three time returning guest, Elite, the top tier absolutely with Naomi and Caitlyn Gil good company and you're always are one of our like holiday movie season guests. He's true, isn't it? Because it's kind of love actually and die harder, Oh my gosh. Now, and then a woman does I mean obviously has a very Christmas vibe. There's there's a couple of Christmases. It's true. Yeah, And it's our dear friend, comedian Debra d g you Vanny, Hello, welcome back, thank you for being I'm not supposed to say guy anymore, am I? Oh? I know. I'm trying to train myself out of that one is going to be very difficult. There's been a couple of words in two thousand nineteen where it's just like, oh, we're slowly work It's interesting watching a word slowly just work its way out of vernaculate and I'm with it. I'm I totally accept that. But it's that's that one. It's a yeah, you gotta catch yourself a couple of tags. Every once in a while, I've been saying y'all more than I thought I ever would. I've been saying humans like humans. You know. It's it's that's a nice round way of covering everybody. I like. I like gang gang gang teams, a good coach, energytage well or whatever an ever mannard energy to this stage in Western Pennsylvania where I'm from, you say you's to be why O you and Z? But then there's another version of it, Yn's which is why I and Z? But what what's that for? Like you ones? Oh? I like that. I'm trying to think Canadian one. It reminds me of how I try to say Christian. We are think Canadian were very big on dude. Dude is a very and that is a genderless dude. Is that? I think people think of it as a masculine term, But it's in candidate's super not and it's not d U d E. In Canada, it's d O O D like we really hold the dude. I say dude a lot. I get not proud of myself, but anyway, it's good to be here. Yes, we thank you for the genderless dude. Yeah, little dude, little dude, A little dude, little Girlwig. Where were you on that one? So we had thoughts, you had thoughts about this before we even started. Yes, I don't agree with any of you. Okay, So what is your history with Little Women? Little Women? I definitely read it. I remember, you know, reading it, and you know it's so funny. It's you know when there's just a little snippet in time that just sticks with you. Minus Friends, the show Friends, that's you know, it was the nineties, that was I was a young woman that was just really stuck with me. And the entire time, I kept thinking of the episode where Joey and Ray Rachel, Yes, I remember that died. I mean, it's that's all I get think either. The whole time I was watching it, I remember Joey being confused to about Joe and Marie thinking Joe is a man and Lori is a woman. Yeah, but that's what I can't think. I will say. I mean, I love I loved the book. I did. I mean, I haven't read it a long time. I was a young girl when I read it. I loved it. I was a little woman when I read it. But I didn't love this version of the movie. And here's why it wouldn't known a writer and I have always loved Wenona writer and everything. This I couldn't. It was too precocious, it was too like, I'm she ran everywhere and we get it. Joe was a natural girl and blah blah. I couldn't take it. I had to watch it in like three parts because I couldn't say I was like and Kristen Dunns too, as well as a child petulance. But the movie itself is lovely. I just I didn't love this version. I do love Susan Sarandon, but I didn't love this version. But the new one. I am jazzed for the new jazz for the new one. And then, of course, honey, versions of this movie have they done several? A lot? There was, Oh, I have a list. There was the first one. I believe it's in nineteen thirty three or four. Of course, of course, why would I think anything? Um okay, so nineteen thirty three. That one is Katherine Hepburn playing Joe. There's one in nine that was a big one. June Allison, Margaret o Brian, Elizabeth Taylor, Jane isn't it. I should watch one of the old ones maybe, seriously, that sounds fun. I've seen I think I've seen the nine nine with Elizabeth, but and then the one. Then there was a mini series that came out last year, right, Yeah, was not received maybe very well, it was it was a modern what about Kate? Wasn't Kate winslettin something? No, I'm making it. She's been in every other period piece, but this probably she's been. It's been a so that's just the times it's been movies. It's been a TV series in ninety nineteen, seventy nine, seventy eight, in two thousand and seventeen, and an anime in seven. So there's infinity adaptations of this book. But that is a lot for one story. I mean it really is. Yeah, I mean it's an American class, it's an American classic. It's an American town, which is an Yes, I mean, there's no denying. It makes me cry every time. I know. I'm very excited for the new one. I I enjoyed this one. I read Little Women as a little woman as well. Um they had like they had like a promotion. Our local newspaper was like selling copies for like two dollars, and they were these beautiful, like hardcover copies of all these classic books. So I got Little Women. I remember liking it, but not liking in the second half, which I still feel basically the same way about. I was like just going back through like the adaptation changes. They trimmed a lot of the fat for this movie, because there's a lot of the way that Joe's character lands in the book. I remember just being like, really, and they avoid a lot of stuff in this movie that I appreciated. I don't think I had seen this adaptation with Winona Writer. I think once and I thought it was boring and long, and this time I thought it was just a little boring in long. But I liked it, and I cry, yeah, yeah, yeah, I just I just I just remember as a little girl reading and being so mad that Joe Lloyd didn't end up together like that. I was so angry, like I have a lot of theories and then also some context about all this, the Louisa May Louisa my Alcott has I'm so excited for Context Corner today because it is fascinating. Louisa May Alcott really couldn't give a shit about her fans, which is kind of funny. My history is that I had only seen this movie for the first time like two years ago, another one that I was like, oh, we'll cover it eventually, so I'll just like watch it and like have it in my brain space. And I remember thinking, like, Wow, this is like far more of a feminist text than I was expecting for something that was adapted from something that was written in the nineteenth century. Yeah, so that was I was like, I wonder, like, how much of that of the feminism we see in this adaptation is actually in the book. So I started reading the book about two weeks ago. I got three quarters of the way through, so sorry, fans, I haven't finished it. I don't know what happens at the end, but I did read a large chunk of it, and there's like a kind of feminist speeches that will happen, or like monologues in the movie that are not in the book. But I would argue that there's a version of feminism in in the book for its time. There definitely is there. I mean, yeah, I guess I'll just save it for Louise as context Carus. She's so interesting. But there's a whole chapter in that book on like sleep training a baby. Did you get to that chapter? Oh? I remember that very clearly and going to my mom and being like what is this And then she was just like, maybe skip it. I don't. I think it's like Mega's like sleep training her babies and there's so much attention to detail. I got how she did it. I got to the chapter where she was like, I can't wait to be a really really good housewife and then like she has difficulty executing that, and like she has a hard time being so her husband's a piece of garb. He's awful. Made him much nicer in this A little in this yeah much? But I mean I haven't read the book. I would say almost forty years I haven't. No, probably like thirty five years. I haven't read it. So Beth still dies kicks that every time everything changed that if this time Beth. But I really I like this movie a lot. Yeah, I don't know, I really like it. Christian Bale is fabulous in this movie. He is. He's quite good. I'm excited to see Timothy Shell and I play the same part that Christian band. I could already like, I could already see him doing it like even like in like like just from seeing previews like already facial expressions, and I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, this is that's seeing the trailer. I can't wait to see Joe dump him. He's not going to take it. Well, he never takes he doesn't take it well, well you know what I mean. He does that really good. And this and this one I think Christian Bale picks up a backpack really like and he's like, I'm going to Europe. You're like, good for you, asshole. Okay, So should I dive into the recap? Yeah? Alright? So it is Civil War era New England. I think they're in conquered Massachusetts, Massachusetts. Baby. We meet at pond. We meet the March family. They've fallen on hard times, but they also live in a very large house and have a servant, so sure, um. Joe March is one on a writer's character. She's our narrator. She is a writer. She has an older sister Meg, a younger sister Beth that's Claire Danes, and then little Amy is Kirsten Dunce, and their mother Marmie. Marmie So that's the name for mom. Is that what it is. Yeah, they call her Marmy Sick. But her actual name is Abigail in the in this movie, not in the book. They don't give her a name in the book. Um, one of the one of the cool I really like the writer of this movie, who's also producing the new movie, yes, which is and she's Zoe Kasane's mom. Isn't that wild? She also wrote Practical Magic, Yes, and she wrote Matilda. Okay, So that's the March family. It's Christmas morning. Their neighbors, the Hummel family, are poor German immigrants, and they don't have really anything to eat. So the girls or the little women bring their Christmas feasts to the Hummels and their other neighbors. An owner gentleman named Mr Lawrence and his grandson, Christian Bale. Notice this. Uh, they noticed this generous deed that the March family does. And let's see Joe and meg Um. I mean this, there's kind of like there's not a streamlined plot. It's just a bunch of like little vignettes. We see them. They're all they've like contribute to this little newspaper that they make. They dress up as men and like give themselves fake names. Then Joe and Meg get invited to a ball or something, a debutante party. I don't even know. Yeah, there's the scene where Joe accidentally burns Meg's hair off. Uh. And then at the ball, Joe runs into Christian Bale, who goes by Lorie even though his name is Theodore Lawrence but also sometimes she calls him Teddy. Yeah so, but they become friends, and soon he's friends with the whole March family. And we also meet Laurie's tutor, John Brooke, who who will later marry User Alert. He's played by Eric Stoltz. And then we meet Aunt March. She is there rich great aunt who Joe like works for and reads to. Uh. There's a line incident with Amy at school, Lori's hanging out with all of them, and then Meg and Joe go to the theater with him and John Brooke, and that upsets Amy because she wants to go to the theater too, so out of spite, she burns Joe's manuscript. Wow, I would cry, that doesn't equal at all, Like, that's not even remotely on a level. But Amy, it's a child's child, a little little little um and she does apologize, right, but oh, boy, You're like, I mean I felt that, just like yeah, and like that kind of sibling rage. There's no rage like oh my god. So Joe's like, I'm never talking to you again. But then Amy falls through some thin ice and Joe's like, well, I guess I can't hate my sister who almost died. So they make up, and then the family gets word that their father, who is away fighting in the Civil War, has been wounded and is in a hospital in Washington, d C. So John Brooke, who is in love with Meg, offers to escort Marmie there, and Joe chops off her hair and sells it to help Marmy pay her way to Washington, making her video Baldest Woman in Trying exactly uh. And then she also sells one of her stories not long after that, so now she's a real author and the Little Women, well, Marmy is away, the Little Women are trying to get by, and then Beth goes to help the Humble family, but their baby is sick with scarlet fever and gets Beth sick as well, and it seems like she might die, but then she pulls through just in time for Christmas, just never Christmas, which is when their father returns home in this big Christmas miracle surprise. Everyone's happy. Then we cut to four years later, which is at this point in the book where the original book stops and the sequel to the book starts. So the second half of a Little Woman is actually called Good Wives. Um, and that's why the second half of the movie is maybe not so good. And if I'm not mistaken, is there another sequel called like Joe's Boys tacked on that can't I don't know. If I don't think that's included in the Little Women, I'm pretty sure it's Little Women is like all the fun parts that people remember Good Wives, which is all the sucky parts, and Beth dies, which is a pucky part but a memorable second part. And Luisa Alcott like completely denounced the second like Good Wives. She was like it wasn't good. I needed yes, I read money. We also hated it. Yeah, So speaking of the Good Good Wives, the Good Wives, Meg marries John Brooke, Laurie proposes to Joe and she's like, no way, Jose, we would be terrible spouses for each other. And he's all but her and he runs off backpack his jan sport backpack and he's like, I'm going to be a musician. You're like, no, you're not right, and then he isn't. And then Joe decides to go to New York to pursue her writing more seriously, and there she meets Friedrich Bear played by Gabriel Burne. Yeah, he's yeah, he's very he's very handsome. He I was like, I was also like forty years older than her, a lot older than her, and the king of nagging. He's just he's like, you're writing. And then he's like, I'm so sorry. And then four days later he's like, but seriously, your writing is bad. And then she was like, could you not? Yeah, but I was getting some strong Alfred Molina vibes, so I could have easily been easily been off. Definitely in the same little path he had to have. They might be friends in life, right and like they had. He had to have been on from Ireland, I believe, and neighbors neighbors. It's like being like, you know, Arizona neighbors basically is uh so, Joe has been struggling to get anything published, but he's like he encourages her to write from the heart because she's writing stories about like vampires and gore and stuff, and he's like, but none of you is in these stories. So then she's like, okay, fine, I'll write from what I know. But before that they kissed a little bit. And then also in Europe, Lori is drunk now and he is trying to get with Amy, who is a little bit older of a little woman. She's, yeah, she's seventeen in this in the back half, which is what in the Civil War, that's basically thirty five. True, you don't live as long. And then Beth's health takes a turn for the worst, so Joe goes back, but she's been she's been frail the whole time. Third Days, I think speaks maybe fourteen words and doesn't get a lot. She really doesn't historic. Beth never gets much in the book either. I think she's like intentionally underwritten to be more of a godlike ascension because you're just you don't learn about anything about she likes you's. She even in her death scene with Joe, kind of also cops to being a poorly written character, which she's like, you all had goals, and I just sort of like it's true. It's a very sad speech, not in like emotionally, just like like you never even sort of grew up or tried. You're like, okay, bawling. Yeahs devastating. It's like I don't really care about this character, and yet here I am ugly crying by myself in my room. So sad. So she dies and Joe asks Lorie, who is still in Europe, to return home to be with the March family during this difficult time. So Laurie shows up and he's like, hey, Joe, let me introduce you to my his wife, your sister Amy, And she's like, oh cool. Joe handles this gracefully. She I would be sequely like seriously, I mean seriously recu from from and then you married my best friend, and I just like the love of her life. Like really, here's my theory, I think. And I'm not the first one to say this, but I'm pretty sure Joe is a lesbian for sure. Yeah. So I like her getting with Friedrich, which does happen at the end, and even more so in the book, like the movie cuts off where it's just like she's like, come be a teacher at my school and then they kiss. But at the end of the book, or maybe it's in the second sequel. They like have children together. They have children and and in the book she starts a school for boys boys. Yeah, you're like, what that doesn't even make sense with the character. Yeah, it's just she's not like for anyone who wants to learn if you're a boy, a white boy. But yeah, no, Joe's kind of a queer icon. Yeah in many ways. Yes, um, but I know so. I think Fredrick in this movie is her beard. Maybe not sure. Anyway, they get together, and this is also when Joe has she's written about her life and her sisters and submitted it and Freedrick's like he helps her get it published and then he like drops off a galley of the book or something I don't know, and she's like, oh hey, let's be it again. He's like, didn't you marry someone though, And she's like, no, I'm not married. He's like, okay, let's kiss. And then that is the end of the movie. He's like walking away with a little bindle, Like this is rather dramatic. It's nothing literally, like that's all he has. My hands are empty except for my little bendle and and the love in my heart Caitlin. I mean, weddings aren't for Joe, but guess who they are for Meg, Meg and eventually Amy as well. Which brings me to what I wanted to bring up naturally, which is talking about Zola. Meg and Amy wish they could use this. Zola makes wedding planning easier and less stressful, with wedding websites, registry, invites, and a guestless manager all in one place. They could have invited all of conquered, that's true, and they couldn't because they didn't have access to Zola. It has free wedding website designs, hundreds of gorgeous designs for every style. You can create your site in minutes with a custom you are l and password protection meg uh. You can also get an online rs v P page, or guests can shop your registry right on your site. And speaking of that registry that you know the little women again, they there's so much talk about how they've fallen on hard times and they wish they could have art supplies and yarn whatever. Beth is dying of registry. The little women wanted a bunch of stuff and if they had just had Zola, they could have added it. To their registry, and Lori's uncle could have just hooked it up, or grandfather, grandfather's grandfather could have just you know, been like, here you go. He gives them a piano for crying out loud. But anyway, Zola has the highest rated registry of all time and strikes saying no. You can register for gifts, experiences, and honeymoon funds. Oh, that's great, That's what I would want. You can add gifts from other stores. You can sink with existing registries. I was on zola dot com checking out what's available, and I was just shopping away because you know, women be shopping. I was truly like, Wow, I wish I was getting married right now, so I could like set up a registrate and get all the awesome stuff. I would put a piano and a cure for my sister's illness on my word, registrate. That's wonderful. Plus with Zola you get beautiful, affordable invites and paper. You can shop the whole paper suite at Zola from Save the Dates, two invites, and thank You's all designed to match your wedding site. You can customize it with your own photos, which did exist during the Civil War, so they could have used that used wording and more. They'll help you collect addresses and track online rs vps with their free guest list manager, and they'll address your envelopes for free. That's amazing. Zola has helped Caitlin one million couples get married, and they'll help you too. That's a weirdly direction to you, but they will help the grand you as well. Beautiful. So sign up at zola dot com slash TBC to day to get your free personalized paper sample. Then use code save fifty and get fifty percent off. You're saved the dates. That's Zola dot com slash TBC and use promo code save fifty. All right, let's let's get back to the Little Women, shall we. I just had to get that out of my system and now we can talk about Joe. Okay, let's do it. Okay, So what a treat? Where to start? Where to start? Indeed, should we start with a little context on this story? I think that's a good idea, And Caitlin, I know you have some context as well. So I didn't know a lot about the history of the writing of this book, or about Louise am Alcott as a person, but it's all very interesting. There's a lot going on. So this is auto fiction basically, like Louise my Alcoot grew up in Conquered with three sisters. I mean, the father stuff is kind of written out of little women. The father stuff in Louise ma Alcott's life is bananas. It's a lot, um. But she has three sisters. One of them died at twenty two, not from uh what scarlett fever. No from What is speculated now is that she had severe anxiety and starved herself to death. There was like it was very dark and very sad. Uh, which has stuff to do with the father. So unfortunate. Okay, So the father who Louisa May Alcott stands for her entire life, she never really denounces him. She admires him a lot. They were very close. And Louisa May Alcott died two days after her dad passed and they had like the same birthday. It was a whole lot of stuff. But her her dad was Transcendentalist, which was a movement around this time, hyper religious, and it was like a lot of very very famous writers were associated with it. Henry David Thurreau was involved. Um, who is the other Ralph Waldo Emerson is involved. All these famous New England writers of the time time were her mentors as she was growing up, But it was her dad was a zealot for sure. He did some good things, he like invented new teaching techniques, but he also forced veganism on his family, which is you know, in theory great Civil War times really not called your family is malnourished and they were like starving. Um. So he you know, I was on the right track, but maybe went a little too hard and I'll remember his family. Uh. He also didn't like and this is kind of alluded to in a scene that's not in the book. He wouldn't allow them to wear wool or silk, basically any basicthing but linen. I think, yeah, so, which is also hard because they didn't have a lot of money and so they were only allowed to wear one fabric, so they also didn't really have anything to wear in addition to really having nothing to eat. So he was he was an intense Scott. He would leave for years at a time and leave her mother to raise the for little women on her own, which I think is what is supposed to be maybe happening in in little women. But it's like the dead would just bail for long amounts of time to try to start up a religious camp and would blow all the family's money putting it into these religious sites, and then he wouldn't have any money to feed or clothe his family. And even if he didn't, he wouldn't So it was just it was not a good situation. They were also abolitionists. They were that's rights was like, which is great. Uh, they were they were abolitionists. And their house was a stop on the underground railroad, so they like Harbord fleeing slaves to try to get them to they were I mean, they were vegan in they were that it killed them. They were so ok it nearly killed it was so yeah. No, they weren't fucking around. They were uh and and um the and and like her, I mean, her father was always very supportive of her writing career. Her mother was one of the first paid social workers in the state of Massachusetts. Ever, so a good but bizarre family dynamic. So basically Louise may Alcott is Joe Um in the books, which tracks on everything down to um. Well, I mean it's got you know, queer theory is in its infancy. It might it might still not, it might even be born, not even be born um at the time of this. But Louise May Alcott, unlike Joe, who she's sort of due to I think publishing notes, was told like, you gotta get Joe married. You gotta Also the fans, like wrote in after the first book, that she had to marry Laurie. They were like, make Joe get married, and and Louise Malcott was like, well, I like, I guess that she had to for whatever reason, she had to get Joe married, but she refused to give people the satisfaction of making it Laurie, which rules exactly um. But but she never got married. There's some good quotes from her. She she identified as a life lung spinster um. And she said this was in an interview with Louise Chandler Moulton we all know and loves. She said quote, I am more than half persuaded that I'm a man's soul put by some freak of nature into a woman's body, because I have fallen in love with so many pretty girls and never wants the least bit with any man. So it's it's mired in you know, the vernacular of the time, but she was like fairly open about it. She had she had an affair with a young Polish man who I guess she based Laurie on at one point. But there's not a ton known about her personal life except that she never got married, never had a desire to, and she really did not like writing the women. It was the thing she was the least proud of. Um, sort of like Joe, which I thought was interesting, where Joe was writing all these kind of like waggy and fantasy stories, which Louisa may Alcott also did under fake names, and Joe, is you know enough? Men are like just write down your like, just right now, what happened? Your sister died right right about that, And I think a similar suggestion was made to Louisa may Alcott and then I ended up being this gigantic thing. Um. But but she was never really passionate about writing about herself. She just wanted to write about the stuff that wanted to write about. Yeah, I think that that's the primer on covers what I had to all Right, Yeah, she's she's a very interesting person. I wish that we knew more about her personal life. She was she was a little bit cranky. Uh, she didn't care for her fans, which is which is a mood. You know, that's a that's definitely a decision. But you know, very talented, ardent, feminist, abolitionist, on on the right side of history with pretty much every social issue you could be on the right side at that time. So we love her, we love Oh wait, oh wait. The last thing I wanted to say was, for some reason, they did document her last words, and very funny. She died of some complications student meningitis, and her last words were is it not meningitis? And those are the last and then she just mid diagnosis or something. I don't know I was. I just thought that that was very funny. I was like, wow, move over, Steve Jobs. You know, is it not meningitis? Has logged in? Incredible, very cool. So, because Joe is so closely modeled after the author, let's maybe start with Joe talking about Joe. I love I love Joe too, but um, one of the things that I noticed on my first watch of this movie and then obviously again watching it through the lens for the podcast, is I was like, oh, there there are all these feminist monologues that again don't really take place in the book, but there's like the foundations of them are there. And then the screenwriter, Robbins Swigered just kind of modernized what Louisa may Alcott was doing. And so we get different bits of dialogue or monologues where I think the first one is, um, Marmie is talking about corsets and just sort of like the energy levels of young women, and she says, uh, it is my opinion that young girls are no different than boys in their need for exertion. Feminine weakness and fainting spells are the direct result of our confining young girls to the house bent over their need to work in restrictive corsets. And then mag noted kill joys, Like, Mom, was that necessary? Like shut up? And then and then John Brooke's right there and he's talking about Lori, and he's one hopes that your girls would be a gentle thing influence, but instead they're like getting him all riled off. And then and She's like okay, John, Like she basically was like, shut up, you dumb John. Sucks man, John, Like I couldn't sucks too. I don't think Lorie is great. I think Lorie at least has redeeming qualities. Want name one thing that's good about John? Literally not nothing, and he's way worse than the books too. In the books, he like yells at Meg right after she has twins because he's like, you're not paying attention to me, and then Meg apologizes for two whole chapters. So you know, the men don't fare well in this though, like that, there's no we don't have any great examples of men in this in the in the movie for sure, at least, I mean maybe the closest thing is their father, who barely gets screen time words, which is very old to be a soldier. I'm am I wrong? Is that by our standards? Yes? But I think in like Civil War era they would just take anybody could have only been thirty. We have no idea, like literally like that's just a very grizzled yeah, and he said it sounds like he's like modeled after Louis and Alcott's father, minus all the cult stuff. But truly, though none of the guys are great. Great isn't great, and even Friedrich is not great. They're not great? Right, Yeah? Okay, So let me talk about Lori for a moment because I like the fans always like I just didn't Christian, but it was so cute. That's what I can't. That's I mean, this is what's the only right. But he is a character. Here's a few examples of why he pretty much sucks. Um. He shows up at that debutante party that Meg is at, and she's like kind of surprised to see him. She's been like dolled up by her rich friends, and she covers her chest a little bit, and then he says like, oh no, don't cover up. There might be one or two gentlemen here who haven't seen your charm. Yes, And then she was like having this is the only time we make modest yeah, never has fun. I'm like, this is the first time she's ever had fun in your room? Right? And she expresses like she's like I like the way I look like, I like what's and he and then he makes fun of horror like truly yeah, yeah, he's like a yeah, he's an asshole. And then what about about telling a child he's going to kiss her? I mean not now, I mean it was there was she was a child, she was like seven or something. That reminded me of I wrote down Taylor Lautner, Oh, and Twilight when he's like, I'm going to make out with this baby one day and you're like, oh, dear God, why why are we bringing put to our brain? Yeah? Ever? Why you? And it's supposed to be romantic, but if he imprinted on Nasty King of not good kissing situations in the movie, he loves yes, yes, yes, uh. He loves to surprise kiss because he first does it. He only he does it with Joe when he proposes to her after she's been like I'm not really into this and and he's like he kisses her and then she pulls away, and then later he tries to kiss Amy. He like pulls the little veil off of her face. He's like, I'm reminded of a promise I made to kiss you when you were a child. And then Taylor, she like backs away and starts she like changes the subject so he doesn't get to kiss her, but he like very hard tries to surprise kiss her, and then right after that he insults her painting. He's like, your paintings are mediocre copies of another man's genius. And then she's like, what are you in a band? And he's not really. And then and then he turns himself around and he's like, all right, fine, I'll go to London and make myself worthy of you. And then the next thing we know they're married. And it's just like, I hate how that plays out. I guess it's expanded on more in the book, but it's all but I don't remember. Yeah. I also, I didn't get to that part. Didn't get there. It's not even worth rehashing, I don't. I mean, it was a choice to have him marry Amy. I'm like, couldn't they couldn't. He just remained friends with the family. Also, Louise May Alcott's youngest sister was a painter, and she was like a sort of famous painter of her time. She's like, yeah, sort of famous female painter. Good for her. Yeah, at a time where you know, women weren't really artists or authors. Women didn't so you know the fact that you get these characters who have like these creative interests in our and pursue them, and that comes with some level of privilege of being able to pursue these interests. But even so, like it was like okay, like writing and it was kind of reserved for men at the time, and in Joe's case, I mean, Joe doesn't really get help from anybody, and like starting her writer writing career, I think he gets like the Parisian bump or wherever the fun you wanted to study painting, But like Joe does it all by herself, Like she doesn't get help from anybody at until Frederick comes along and he's like with my editor friend right, and he's like, you have to change everything you write about um, But I don't count. The second half of the book is canon, Okay, So she doesn't get any help right up until that point. Yes, she's she's doing it on her own. I don't count. Frederick is not a part of my head canon. Well, I am going to talk about him a little bit. I'm so sorry. Well we should talk about well we should, we should talk about him. Yeah, complicated. The main thing for me is that, like she has not expressed really any romantic interest in any man up to this point, and you know, anyone, and then suddenly this guy who's like twenty or thirty years older than her comes along. I think the actor is at least twenty years older than when a writer. It's a little alarming to look at uh, not to shame anyone who you know, and this was this was standard of the time. Much older men were marrying much younger Christian Bill. But I was just like, Okay, She's like this whole time has been like no, I'm not going to go and be someone's wife, and like, no, I'm I care about my writing. That's the only pursuit I care about. And then Friedrich comes along and because he likes books, she's like, well, I guess we can kiss. And I mean it was like the cultural the cultural influence of the time in terms of like Louisa may Alcott had no choice, her hand was forced in terms of like they all had to get married at the end because that wasn't even reflective of her life when everything else is pretty much beat for beat the same. But it's like she had to like marry off her own avatar to some random which doesn't seem very and she like she very vocally did not want to marry Joe, have Joe be married, but the fans and the publishers alike were like, no, she's got to be married, big moment for marriage. Um, the only I mean, it's kind of like I don't know, I've I've read a lot of like criticism in either direction on Joe's I mean, there's a ton written about Joe and people are like, oh, I wonder if, like greta girl is going to change that or leave that out or like something Alige differently. But it's hard because it's like if you it's like what you said, Kitl and I was like, you're never really led to believe that this is something that Joe wants out of life, So it rings a little hollow, and all of a sudden she does want it. But then also it's like she's nineteen, and I think that it is nice to have. Like what I like about her story arc with Frederick included is that she you know, gets something that not a lot of women of this time got, which is like a relationship that is on her own terms and like not having. And then from a class perspective, her turning down Alor was a huge deal because that would have had her and her entire family set for life. So it was like not a small choice for her to be like, I am going to marry for love. So there is from like from having it all perspective of like she waited, I mean who it's her life. She's also not real, but like she waited until she had at least a footing in her career, and she was like pursuing what she wanted to pursue and took the chances that she was wanting to take before choosing someone to be in a relationship with, which I thought is nice in it in its way where it's like pie this guy. Sure, she becomes the most famous writer ever and is traveling the world, but in terms of like this time, it is kind of cool to be like, oh, like and she found some of that. She really loves who next her? But but aside from that, I mean, he supports her career and there you know, it's like, I don't know, it's a complicated one. She just definitely did not marry for money, which is which is he isn't French exactly, he has nothing. So that's you know, that's of that time. That's you know, that's that would be a crazy thing, right all right and right away to turn on all right. Yeah, and the fact that no one gives her ship for it to in her family because it's like, but it does, I mean in the movie it does. There is that moment where it's kind of like, you know, she's like tying up blue ends, like she like, you know, it was okay, you're all married, you've got kids, she's dead, Okay, I'm gonna and then she basically like okay, I gotta do something, and that she just chased him. I feel like it was a little like, well I gotta do something kind of thing. Yes, someone author, but all right, I'm still nothing if I'm not married is what the world tells her. So she's like, all right, let's yeah. I was surprised, based on the more feminist choices that are made in the adaptation, that they also wouldn't have chose to leave Joe like single and pursuing her writing, but ended the movie a little earlier because it was like the movie even ends on the shot of her getting like saying she'll get married, and you're like, that wasn't the point of all this, and that's what you want to leave us on, right, we want to care about this bendle guy. Honestly to me, like I had forgotten that aspect of the whole story. I forgot that. I forgot that, and then when it was I was like, oh, yes, she does end up me. She does end up marrying, you know, which is very unbacked, isn't it, Like I mean it's I mean, it's well, I have I continue to have complicated feelings about this, where it's like a romantic relationship with a man doesn't make you not feminist if you're like a straight lady. Yes, Jamie, that means for you, but like to me, it's more about everything that had been previously established about the Joe character gets sold out. I feel when she ends up with it is it is, and it's worse than the book to where we were told in the book that it's Frederick's dream to run a school for boys, and then Joe then uses her inheritance to manifest her husband's dream and then does all that work. I think I'm more upset just by hearing you talk about like the actual truth story of of the book, like about she must marry. That makes me the saddest and not even you know, the movie or any adaptation. It's just so that's what it was, especially because Louis doesn't get like never married and never want and wanted, Fine, I'll marry her. And that sucks, Yeah, yeah, it sucks, and and and Louisa may Alcott all these things at the end that we're having issues with. She also she also like it seems like her hand was very much forced. So another thing that carried from the book that I'm kind of glad didn't make it to the movie. I think that as far as adapting this book, the Screamer does a really good job because she, like, like you were saying, she articulates feminist thoughts that were kind of like, you know, more embryos in the Louise may Alcott book and just like states them in a way that doesn't feel jarring or like out of time or anything. But in the in the book, Um, I think that the reason we're meant to believe that Joe gives up her dreams and decides I'm going to get married all very quickly is because of Beth's death. Um. And there's this little passage that I found that I found very depressing. It goes like this quote, Joe laid her wearied head down on Beth's little brown hood, which no one had thought of moving from the table where she left it. It must have possessed some magic, for the submissive spirit of its gentle owner seemed to enter into Joe. So Beth's ghost made Joe want to get married to give up, which was like, hello, Jamie, that happens to me all the time. You just taken some submissive spirits. Submissive spirit really didn't sit well. Also, that's kind of mean to Beth too. You're like, can we just can we just say this? And this is just out of nowhere. But it irked me the entire time about how just everyone kept calling Joe ugly like I couldn't, Like I was, that's your only beauty when she got out her hair herself ugly and like, I mean, we can and I know it's a movie and blah blah, but we can all admit one on a writer is anything but ugly. She is a beautiful I mean, a little gammen feminine. Just I mean, I can't every actor that's ever played is Joe is traditional, e mentionally beautiful, which is kind of frustrating because I think that, I mean, I think that's like a Hollywood thing where because it would be neat if it was, like, you know, less than typically beautiful woman playing it right right now at least, And Luisa may Alcott was not a conventionally beautiful woman and she's writing this part about herself and it's just like, well, then cast that, but people can anyway, but that just just jarring to hear it. Whatever. And it's just like because they really made that, They've really made that a part of were they tried to make that a part of her character, you know what I mean. It's like that's what she had overcome physical unattracted this and people aren't buying. Yeah, we got to take another quick break, but we'll come right back, and we're back, and we're there's still so much. Well, continuing on some of the feminist sentiments in the movie, I have a few more. Amy gets in trouble at school with the whole Lime debacle and not she doesn't have twenty four limes scooters in her desk. I mean maybe that's what happened in it was modernized. Yeah, So Amy's teacher strikes Amy on the hands to punish her for having all these lines. Everyone's in an uproar, and then Amy says Mr Davis said it's as useful to educate a woman as it is to educate a female cat. And Joe is like, I'm going to fucking strangle that dude, she's great, and then Marmie writes a letter to the tacher withdrawing Amy from the school. So it's it's like, my daughters will educate themselves or be homeschooled rather than be taught by this, Like misogynist creep is the implication here, right, Yeah, that was not that was a welt. That was yes on tiny cares and dunce, how dare you. Then there's a conversation kind of just about like the double standards for men and women and they're sort of like perceptions by society. Where this is after Meg has gone to that coming out party of her friend. I think Sally Moffatt is the name, and Joe is like, I don't like people speculating about Lori and Meg as if they are characters in some play, and Marmie is like, when nothing provokes speculation more than the sight of a woman enjoying herself. And there's like a really nice conversation that follows that, and then um, Meg is like, why is it that Lori made do Izzy likes and flirt and tipple champagne, And Marmie's like, and no one thinks the less of him? Well, I suppose for one practical reason, Laurie is a man, and as such he may vote, and hold property and pursue any profession he pleases, and so he is not so easily demeaned. And then they start talking about like, well, you know, who cares what people think? And and Meg is like, well, I kind of do, and then Marmie says, I only care what you think of yourself if you feel your value lies and being merely decorative. I fear that someday you might find yourself believing that's all you really are. Time erodes all such beauty, but what it cannot diminish is the wonderful workings of your mind. So she's like saying, like, don't just value yourself for how you look like it's your it's your brain and your mind and your thoughts and feelings that are important. I really and I like that that conversation that Meg was given, that line of dialogue being like, well but wait, and then that like I don't know, I I like how distinct they are from each other, and that like no one's perspective is treated as lesser than or and no one's really punished by the narrative for their perspective. Except of course Beth, who is an angel who has killed Um and then her spirit goes into goes into a hat at Joe puts on, and then she you know, torpedoes her narrative. But I thought that that scene was really cool. Uh. And then there's one other major scene like this that I took note of, which is like the should women vote? Scene where a couple of times Joe is in New York. There's like all these guys at this like a boarding house that she's living in, and they're talking about should women be able to vote? In Some guys like stinky right, literally this pile of stinky dudes being like, should we let women vote? What do you think? And You're like, oh god, they probably have some influence. Yeah, And so the conversation goes like this, Um, some guy is like a constitution that denies the basic rights of citizenship to women in black people? Uh. And another guy responds, well, they just passed the fifteenth Amendment. They can vote. The other guy responds, black men can vote. Someone else says like, a lady has no need of suffrage if she has a husband. And then a guy's like, if women are a moral force, shouldn't they be able to like govern, preach and testifying court. And then meanwhile, Joe is like trying to speak up, but all these like men are talking loudly and not giving her any space even though she's like the only woman in the room who could actually like offer, which is an experience all the time, still every day. Um. And then freederch is like, hey, Joe, what do you have to say? And she says, I find it poor logic to say that because women are good, women should vote. Men do not vote because they are good. They vote because they are male. And women should vote not because they are angels and men are animals, but because we are human beings and citizens of this country. So those were just a few examples of like the feminist sentiments that I was surprised were in this movie. Again based were it's supposed to be sat at the time that it's supposed to be said, it's pretty, But we read that it's because Robin Swikerd, the screenwriter who adapted this. This is from an Atlantic article entitled The Lie of Little Women from um. Sophie Gilbert writes, quote Robin Swykerd, who wrote the screenplay, created virtually every line of dialogue from scratch, saying that she had imagined what Alcott might have written had she been quote freed of the cultural restraints of her time. The results swerves from the usual homie scene to offer a politically engaged drama in which Marmie and Joe advocate for women's suffrage and none of the marches were silk because it's produced using slavery and child labor, males are Males are relegated to the margins. The March household as a matriarchy presided over by a few feminist and reformist crusader who emphasizes the importance of education and moral character rather than interior decoration. Uh. And then Swygert even names Marmi Abigail, which is Alcott's mother's name end quote. Yes, uh yeah, I and she does I think, like yeah, Robin Swiker does a really really, really good job. And Gillian Armstrong as well, who I didn't know a ton about. This is I think her most famous movie that she made, her most mainstream movie, So she's a famous Australian director. She also does a ton of UM documentaries UM and a lot of her recent work as documentaries. Her other most famous movie was also adapted from an old as book UH called My Brilliant Career, So that was in It was the first Australian feature length film to be directed by a woman for forty six years. Uh. So she's like a pioneer in in uh film as well. So I think between like Robin swaker It and Julian I'm strong, they they got it unlock. Yeah, and it's like really cool that all that stuff, you know, made it in and didn't get like noted out of the movie, like I got noted out of the book right right exactly. And then I mean another thing I just really like both about the book and the movie is that like and this kind of manifests in a in a weird way that you were talking about earlier, Deborah, but like Joe is described as like being boyish and not conventionally attractive, but she was often saying things like oh, like I wish I wish I were a boy and like and that can be you know, read a couple of different ways where it's like, okay, like is this is this part of maybe her possible queer identity or is she saying something to the effect of like if I were a boy, I would have like the freedoms and men have at this time. But you know, I just I like the like you see them dressing up as men several times. You know, she's she's often just described as a tomboy, and I thought that was cool, especially for a story that takes place in a time when gender rules were so rigid, yeah, even more than they are now. So I kind of like, yeah, I like that. The movie doesn't you know, like hamper itself down by getting more specific with any of it either, just like opens it up to more interpretations and like readings and makes it more accessible to more people. So it's good. I'm training the Oath and that scene, I mean, it's just worth shouting out like that, the scene where Joe turns down Laurie is like so good. Yeah, it's so good. I love to watch it. I went back and I just googled that scene and other adaptations of it because it's just great to watch and like for like reasons we've already talked about, but that seemed just like it sucks me up. It's so exciting too, because that really happens in any rom com, any sort of romantic movie. But to have it just mean again, I know it's but just disadaptation obviously, but just having the woman saying no to the many, changing her mind at the end and showing up in the rain, you know, and being like, you see it was always like that never. It's just it's pretty impressive. It's really cool. She was like, I think of you as a brother, don't kiss me, like and then and truly means it, And You're just like, that's no, meant no, right, because normally in stories like this you would see like the Lori character like wearing her down until she finally submits. Instead he does that to Amy, but at least with Joe, she's like she probably really wasn't mad about the Amy she actually wanted. I would be, well, I think, well, I mean, I guess it's not you know, in the days of texting, but like it would be weird to find out and because I married your sister, oh, I mean the pigeon never made it or whatever it was, to finding out on Instagram, it would be really seriously, tell me, are you kidding? I wasn't even invited. I'm literally my best friend. That would be crazy, That would be a little crazy, And I guess it would be strange. Although I do you know anybody in your life that is married their best friend's sister? I do know someone. I think that's just a little weird because I don't know. But like, I think we're possessive over our friends, aren't we a little? I think a little bit. Yeah, I don't my best friend out if I get Yeah, like if my like cousin married like someone I did in high school, I'd be like, you'd still be necessary. Really, I'm not mad. There's still be that there's a slight factor. It's just like, right a minute, Like for me, it's more about like what do they have in commons? Like why are they sudden? Why is he suddenly like? Because that is we could say that that's Lorie's sort of redeeming characteristic that he did like Joe so much because you know, not yes exactly for the right reasons, that they just really truly got each other and had fun and challenged each other. There's a great joke during that scene when he's proposing. She's like, no, we have such horrible tempers. He's like, no, I can keep mine under control unless provoked. I laughed out loud. But then you know, then he marries the pretty little girl like he's supposed to and Amy and Amy also it's like I think she's sort of given some like first of all, she's kind of dunked on, I think unfairly by him several times. You've brought up a couple of them. But there's also Amy is about to marry someone else, and it does seem to be largely for financial reason, but like she mentioned several times, which you like, dude, it's like eighteens, like seventy and like this, but he wants to use that is one of his Lorie did like I could give you everything you wanted, so the same thing, and I just I don't know, just like shaming her so that she into dating him. Was like, well, this is like this criticism is not coming from a place of caring. It's coming from a place of horny nous and the and and Amy like I feel like she's like sort of allowed to stand up for herself. But then she ends up marrying him anyways, where he's like, oh, well, your family is so chill, and she's like, well, I don't want to marry you because you think my family's chill. And then he's like no, no, no, I like you. I like you. I want to march, but I'll take it anyway. I'll get anywhere I can get in there. I'll marry death, dead body death, march. Um. Can we talk about Beth briefly? Beth? I mean there's unfortunately we don't know that much like Piano, she likes. Yes, she's very I think Beth is interesting. I mean, there's been a lot of different reads on Beth as well, which are like, I think some of them have some strength to them, but for the most part, it seems like Beth and um, Louise and Mailcott sister who passed away at twenty two was literally named Elizabeth and so she just called her Bath instead of Lizzie in the book. So it's like pretty one to one with how that character was adapted. But the way that she's adapted in the movies I think is like kind of worth discussing because she is such a like delicate feminine, Like I think all the traditional feminine values of this time are all represented in bad see not heard very way and just that sort of like yeah, kind of forgotten almost if you will, right, which is like kind of I mean, she's surrounded by all these very strong personalities, and she's like more reticent, she shy, she doesn't like the spotlight and a and all this stuff, and she's I think, kind of presented as like this feminine ideal in a way. But then she dies. But it's like, but it it was interesting of I was reading some like takes on the character of like that's a statement from Louis mal from the writers saying that, like this type of femininity can't uphold for much longer or it's growing less relevant. And these characters that are very strong willed and challenging status quo is constantly like Joe and like Marmie, are the ones that endure. And then the sort of shrinking violet person exercise the ones that get to run around a bit, right right, which Marmie says herself, let the girls outside, Like what are we thinking? She us fifteen from the movie starts, and then four years later, yeah, yeah, she's very young, and I mean and but then it's like you have to take it with a grain of salt, because Louisa mail cut sister died very tragically at a similar age, and it truly might just be a one to one, but it is interesting. I think that she is the least developed character of the Little Women, and I mean I think probably that and maybe the scene with Lori and Joe are like the two most remembered things about this movie is of course turns on the proposal and that died absolutely and the hair hair off it's another one, but cutting your hair off to which has nothing doing anything but like um, But yeah, I don't know. I mean, there's not really that much to say about Beth, unfortunately, but it is. It is interesting the way that she's pretty consistently represented. I don't think that there's really any made many different takes on Clordine isn't given much to do except to I mean, it must have been a chill shoot for her. She's mostly lame and just having Susan Sarandon hold her hand, You're like, yeah, I get, where's the check? That's great? Yeah. I wonder if this new adaptation, the Greta Gerwig one will maybe give us playing good question Eliza Scanlon, who I am not familiar with here, but she plays Beth. Emma Watson's Meg, so Sharonan is Joe and Florence Pugh is Amy. But so that's Beth. We talked a little bit about Amy. Meg is interesting. Jill Loftis my mother famously played Meg in the Brocton High School adaptation of Little Women. My mom Laurie played Lorie. No, that's not kid Um. I like Meg, and I like what her character kind of represents in the story because they like it's so, you know, rare, especially in Louise may Alcot's time for women to be the protagonist of the story at all, much less a lot of different types of women who are constantly disagreeing because their siblings, but they also have like a very strong bond they love each other. And Meg, I think, is like the representation in this very headstrong family of someone who craves something a little more traditional. And I thought it was cool to see, even though like when I was little, I was like Meg go somewhere too. But but it's like she she's clear about what she wants. She wants a married life, she wants a family, and no one gives her a ship for it. They're just like Marmie's very supportive. She's just like, well, if that's what you want, you know, do whatever you want. And then when she's like, I want to marry this loser. Marmie's like, I guess, whatever your your choice, like a loser who says um over the mysteries of female life there is drawn a veil best left undisturbed, basically meaning I don't know what the women do, and I don't I don't want to find it, and I'm not going to look it up. So I mean, there's a lot of talk in this movie, especially the first half, before any of the women, the little women are married, about getting married. There's all this talk about who they might marry. Should you marry a rich man or is it okay to marry a poor man? Will anyone ever want to marry any of them? Will there be suitors for them? At one point on March big fan of Aunt March, love her, She's basically at March. Yeah. I love that scene when Laurie's like, I think they're in France later on and he's like, oh, Aunt March, you're looking well, and she's like, I wish I could say the same, like you look like shitri he does. He has like a shitty little beer and that he's got the like you know, but the undone sort of tuxedo, which is a classic drunk, Yeah, he moved and trying the band, and you're like, Aunt March is not having it. But Aunt March is saying pretty early on in the movie to Marmy the one hope this family has is for Meg to marry well. And then Joe comes in and Aunt March is like, and this one's entirely ruined her disposition with books, so, you know, maybe not the feminist icon we were all hoping for. But later Marmy and Meg are talking about Meg marrying John Brooke and she's and you know, Marmy saying like, oh, you know, I would rather Meg that you marry for love and be a poor man's wife than Mary for riches and lose your self respect. So which I like. I like them. I like the message of it. I just was the poor man she chose wasn't a asshole. And then Joe chimes in and says, well, why must we marry it all? And it's like cool that you have that perspective from a female character in this like nineteenth century story. But then she goes and marries Frederick for no reason. It's frustrating, but I mean, I'm happy for Meg, but there the I mean there's just I have a small I hate John's character so much, and he's so much worse in the book. I have just a quick pull quote. So this happens right after Meg gives birth. Right, she just put her underwear back on after giving birth to and then do you were? Meg's like, Marmy, I don't know how you did it four times? And then John's like, well, she didn't do it twice at once, Like shut up? So annoying, but okay. So Mega is very recently given birth, and John is mad because he is not getting as much attention as literal babies. So John yells, quote, where's the beef and vegetables I sent home? And the pudding you promised? Alcott wrote that John was a mild man, but he was human, explaining that a man can't be expected to conduct himself properly when he's hungry. Um, let's see there. Here's here's another passage quote. The poor man was very uncomfortable, for the children had bereft him of his wife. Home was merely a nursery, and the perpetual hushing made him feel like a brutal intruder whenever he entered the secret precincts of baby dumb um so, and I guess like Alcott ends up being very sympathetic to John of like, well, of course he's yelling at her. She's breastfeeding two children all the time. You're like, that's that's a great reason to not yell at her. She's literally so busy. Um. But I don't, I don't know, I get. Yeah, the men the milk care in this movie are either not good role models or just basically absent from the story, which is kind of right. I mean, I didn't need more men around in this movie. Sure, And like Friedrich, I wish had if he had kind of taken it upon himself to be maybe like a mentor to Joe and been like, let me help lift you up as a like woman being a writer. But the fact that he's like, I don't like these stories. You should write different stories, and right, I felt because I totally forgot everything that happened with Friedrich. And so the first time when he criticizes her, and she's like very taken it back and it's like that this is my life's work, and he like immediately apologizes and it's like I'm sorry that was out of line. I shouldn't have said that. I'm like, Okay, I guess, let's see where this goes. And then she sort of becomes receptive to dating him after he apologizes to her, but then he does it again and and it's like that's kind of so an adaptation change that the screenwriter makes in this movie is that she has Joe leave New York shortly after she like cuts him off after he criticizes her the second time and doubles down in the book, Joe takes it very personally and stops writing. Uh, you know, she like stops writing for a long time and then only starts writing again when she's writing her memoirs, when she starts writing Little Women. Basically, Um, So, the movie, I mean tries to do some damage control around that, but it's still just like there's also I think an attempt to kind of have the perspective of the movie to agree with Friedrich in the sense that like we see Joe not necessarily really wanting to write these stories but doing it because like that's what the newspapers want or like that's what I think, and and suggesting that she wishes she could write something else, but like no one wants to hear girls stories or whatever, but like I don't know, Like I've had male people men uh that's what they're called to tell me. Like when I was in grad school, like I had male professors be like because I was writing like action comedies, and they're like, but Caitlin, like are you sure you want to write these? Like why don't you write something more personal? And I was like, I don't want to, Like I'm writing the things that I want to write, and it's to me like it felt to me like that's what Joe was doing. Like she was writing the things that she wanted to write, and then at the persuasion of this like male mentor of hers, she's like, Okay, fine, I'll write about yeah, which really bugged me. But that's another thing directly pulled from Alcott's life is like she was and she continued to write her fantasy stories. I'm not many of which I think are still in existence, but the stuff she was actually passionate about, and I think she's kind of used a little women into like bankroll her being able to do stuff she actually wanted to do, but she still had to write it under an assumed name, which Joe also does she writes under a male name, Louisa did as well. It's just like God, what a mess mess? Uh? Does anyone have any other final thoughts? Um? I think that an adaptation of Little Women for a story that takes place literally during the Civil War should not have one thousand white people yet seems like a very specific and bizarre omission that any more modern adaptation should have included. I mean, kind of, let's see what this the next one is. I mean, you know, I was like, credit card doesn't have a great track record white people, but let's let's let's see. Let's see. That reminds me of when we covered The Beguiled, that story that completely omits a black character who is in the novel and then and in the first movement and then the first move V and then Sofia Coppola chooses to because she is not black and doesn't understand how to write black characters, decides to complete omit that character. Yes, I felt that to where, especially because, like al Caught, her parents were abolitionists, there were slaves fleeing to freedom passing through their house. In fact, I read a story that she found one such person, like hiding in an unused oven in her house when she was like seven years old, so she would have had interactions with black people and the fact that they're omitted from the book, and then I also not included in any adaptation. I very much understand why that would be omitted from the book. I think that that would be very very hard to get published. Um, in the time that she read it. I don't understand why it hasn't been included in future adaptations because it's basically, uh biopic with different names. So it's like, if these things were happening and we're a big part and she's from an abolitionist family, like include that in a meaningful way, like it is not disloyal to the source material, but it's literally right there. Um, So that's yeah. It's always weird to see a movie about the Civil War that only has white people in it. And I think that was my last thing. Yes, my last thing is that the March family has many cats. Little son my cats started mowing. Yeah, there's a there's little kittens, there's a few adult cats. There's just and just a reminder to everyone out there that cats do have eight nipples and that's cat facts. With Caitlin and this household has dozens and nipples living under one roof, one enormous roof, because again they lived a huge house. The I love that narrative. You're just like, we're so I mean, and it's like, but if they include the actual Louisa may alcots out, they're like, well, our dad's making us be vegan, but we only have meat, so we're starving. The last thing I wanted to say it was about adaptation stuff where I think that, like, this is like the best adaptation of this that I've seen, But there's also a list in the New Republic of just like other ways that the source material has been interpreted in very specific times. And my favorite stupid one is in THEE. I don't remember this, but this was like post war big capitalism boom, consume, consume, consume, And so they add in a little women's shopping spree scene where the Marchin sisters get a little bit of coin and they go to town because women be a shopping They get Aunt march just like writes them a check and they're like, let's go shopping. Like and then just which is a very stu I just I want to see that scene. Yes, it's so out of place. I want to see it. It's so extremely Yeah, I think that's all I had. Yeah, no one else I think it. No, that's good, will do it? Yeah? Well does the movie pass the back to Tista? Does? Yeah? They do talk about men a lot. They do talk about men a lot, but a lot of daddy talk, a lott of LORI talk heavily male, you know, dominated in no one's conversation, not meningitis. That should be men men more like yeah, more more like little women. Technically it does pass the women right right, think about it. But yeah, there are many scenes where you know, they're talking about hair and dresses and you know, pretty traditionally feminine things. But the baldest women is in charge. Rule works. But then she was back out again. Yes, well she y. I also like that she didn't keep that upkeep I mean that day, so she wasn't going for a trim every eight week. She had to grow back out. She also like that she got sad for a minute and then she That was really funny because they're like, are you because that was like when Beth goes up to her, it's like, are you sad? Because daddy got injured in the war. She's like, no, my hair, and then the next day she was like, actually, looks nice. I have cried after so many haircuts. I also like that Beth starts laughing. I was like, yeah, we don't care that dad got injured in the war. Oh gosh, um, So let's write it on our nipple scale to five nipples. Based on the representation of women, I think I'd give this like a three and a half or four, maybe even because I don't even know how much we actually talked about this during the discussion, but it is a movie where almost all the main characters are women, very female driven story. Women are the focus. Women's stories and characters and their growths and arcs like that is the core of the film. The fact that you get these feminist sentiments sprinkled throughout that. I mean, definitely progressive for her story set in Civil War era, and then even progressive for something from ninety four like expecting that really And while I feel things kind of fall apart by the end where the focus does become more on the relationship that these little women have with men, and especially the Joe character, I feel being sold out because she had previously been established as someone who's like, no, I'm not really interested in being a wife. I'm not really interested in being married. I just want to pursue my writing. And then Friedrich comes along and she's like, well, even though you made me change everything I write about, we should maybe end up together. I didn't like that. But overall, I really like this movie, and I like what it's trying to do, and I think it is generally executed pretty well. Just stay for a few little beats that I wasn't too crazy about. But yeah, overall, I'll give it a three point seven. I will give one nipple to Aunt March, I will give one to Marmie, one to Joe, and I'll give my three quarters of a nipple to the little cute, little orange Katie Cat. I'm gonna I think three and a half. Yeah. I like this movie, so I feel like this is the best adaptation so far. I hope that, like Greta Garroway kind of keeps pushing it. I mean, based on the trailer alone, I feel like we're going to see quite a bit of it. Although Debrah's Joe runs a lot of criticism, I think is alive and well, we see Sarscha puts in ten thousand steps easily. She women be running to indicate that their spirit is Yeah, it's a thing, it's a thing. But no, I mean I think that this is like it does, it does, it does? Yeah, and I like that a lot of There's two women from the production team of this movie that are coming back to work on the Gerwig movie. Denise da Novi, who is a producer on the main producer in this movie, is also producing the new one. And then Robin spikers back. So it seems like they have people who have a history like the you know, I hope this is the next m c U l W the uh you know. And then we meet more little women. There's so many. There's some of them are looking for special rock and then they fight each other. I uh, the that was like I think I just pitched a terrible funny or died sketch. Um, but I watch Yeah, No, I think it's really good. And yeah, I mean there's definitely things about it that are of its time, but a lot is also course corrected. Um. I want to give the production team the benefit of the doubt and say that ending the scene on Joe deciding to get married was a studio note and not something that anyone actually wanted to do, because it just doesn't it seems like totally dissonant with the rest of I think. Yeah, I would, I would say, so that is them going, let's let's tie this up nicely. Every Yeah, and everyone was kicking each other under the table, but they had to do it because that's where the money was coming. Right. It's like it seems like a male executive note. It does at the end, but but for the most part, Yeah, I mean, like giving Marmie a name, giving Marmy a feminist identity, and and just I mean to like shout out the original book to like Louise was really cool. She seemed like she would be really mean to me. I got a big step on my neck energy from because she was just like, you like my work. I don't like she just was like, she seemed like a really fun she said. She wrote the second half of the story good wives quote in a very stupid style. She says, there's also I read a quote that this other sequel, Joe's Boys. She said she was so just like piste off about having to write the whole thing that by the end she wished she could have had the school for boys that they open up just get swallowed up by an earthquake. I'm paraphrasing, but but something like that. I do like when people start to resent their cash cow. It's I think that's really like very It's humanizing, isn't it. It's like, all, yeah, we get it, we get it. Sometimes to do it for the paycheck, you know, Oh god, what about you? I would say, you know, I think we all agree it's around a three point five it is, right. I just they lose a point. They lose a nipple or two for me, because it's just the word insipid comes up for me. And I know that's of the time, but it just it did it. It irked me a little bit. Um, it just really did it. And I know I'm being ah too picky, but um, but generally speaking, right, it was you know, it was they didn't do little women and and replace it like we see in comedy so much. They'll be like it's a it's a women's festival, but there's four male headliners. Like they didn't do that, and I mean they didn't go a little women, but there's a brother at this one. Like there was none of that. So that in and God bless them because they could and I'm sure they got notes for it, so you have to still really give them, you know, three and a half nipples, three point seven five nipples for that. So thank you very much on that one, you know what I mean, Like, come on, we've all been there. It's just like a woman show. But there's three guys. Okay, we got Yeah. The twist is they haven't assaulted a woman. You're like, okay, well they've earned their place here. T J. Miller's back in movies. You see that, Yeah, that underwater killing me now, which I would but with normally that my kind of I love that sort of genre that I do. But I know when he's not the preview, like I think I shrieked out like that kind of I was like, oh no, keep it in, canceled, not anymore anyway. Anyway. To conclude, little Women, pretty good, pretty good, pretty is. Yeah, Debora, thank you so much for joining us for a third time. Girls, ladies, humans, little WoT woman dudes exactly. Always a pleasure, truly. Where can people follow your stuff? Um? Instagram, I'm Debora d g And on Twitter, I'm Debora Dgovanny. I know it's my whole name. How awful. But yeah, d E b R A d G is what you can usually find me excellent. You can follow us US little women, US grown ass women on social media at bectel cast Rain and review us if you would for this holiday season give us a nice five star Apple podcasts and whatnot. You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon by going to patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast and it's only five dollars a month. You get access to the entire back catalog and it's a real treat. Give thank you the gift of the Matreon. It keeps on giving instead of the fun the gift of the Madgi the gift of the Matreon. Yeah. Also, you can grab some of our merch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast. We've got all of our designs there and I think that about does it. Yeahl bye bye bye