House of the Dragon Live at Fan Expo Chicago 2024 with Dr. Vanessa Hintz

<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
<v Speaker 1>movies and psychoanalyze them. My name is Brittany Brownfield and
<v Speaker 1>I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by Ben Stover,
<v Speaker 1>individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza, marriage and family therapists. We're all
<v Speaker 1>licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice
<v Speaker 1>out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed mental health professionals,
<v Speaker 1>this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes and to fulfill
<v Speaker 1>our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
<v Speaker 2>Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
<v Speaker 2>we aren't your therapist.
<v Speaker 1>If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
<v Speaker 1>a local mental health provider. Hey, everybody, just wanted to
<v Speaker 1>give you a little caveat before you listen to this episode,
<v Speaker 1>as it is a recording of a live episode of
<v Speaker 1>a panel we did at the Fan Expo this year. Because
<v Speaker 1>it is a live panel recording and I did record
<v Speaker 1>it on my phone through this breaker app, you will
<v Speaker 1>notice that the sound quality is not as good as
<v Speaker 1>it typically is. You may hear some chairs creaking here
<v Speaker 1>and there. You might hear clapping in the background from
<v Speaker 1>other panels that were going on. You might also have
<v Speaker 1>a hard time hearing any audience engagement of this episode,
<v Speaker 1>but hopefully you will still be able to enjoy myself
<v Speaker 1>and Hannah and our guest doctor Vanessa, as we discussed
<v Speaker 1>the House of the Dragon. Thank you, Hi everybody, Thank
<v Speaker 1>you for those who made it here early on, well
<v Speaker 1>early for us on a Sunday. So yeah, so we
<v Speaker 1>are talking about half of the Dragon today. So first off,
<v Speaker 1>Hannah and I so Brittany Hannah. We are two thirds
<v Speaker 1>of Popular Psychology podcast, which is a podcast that talks
<v Speaker 1>about pop culture movies through the eyes of therapists. I'm
<v Speaker 1>a licensed clinical professional counselor. Hannah is as well, and
<v Speaker 1>Ben our one co host. He's at a wedding this weekend,
<v Speaker 1>so we couldn't join us, but that allowed us to
<v Speaker 1>talk about a topic he doesn't talk about because he
<v Speaker 1>doesn't watch House of the Dragon, So we use that
<v Speaker 1>as an opportunity to talk about what will we want
<v Speaker 1>to talk about And also we are joined by doctor Vanessa.
<v Speaker 2>Hello, I'm sorry it's still very early for me as well.
<v Speaker 2>It's still am I am doctor Vanessa. I am a
<v Speaker 2>licensed psychologist based just west of Milwaukee and Walkeshaw, Wisconsin.
<v Speaker 3>And I'm so thankful to be here with you all.
<v Speaker 2>A fan of popcorn psychology, and thank you so much
<v Speaker 2>for the invitation.
<v Speaker 3>I'm like very excited.
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, we're just gonna rip it up up here.
<v Speaker 1>So if any time, if anyone who say questions thoughts,
<v Speaker 1>feel free to raise your hand interject. We are very
<v Speaker 1>into discussion. What we primarily wanted to focus on was
<v Speaker 1>Allison and Rain. I guess also what I should say
<v Speaker 1>too is if we're gonna be talking about everything so
<v Speaker 1>spoiler spoiler spoiler, and if we're also probably gonna touch
<v Speaker 1>upon like trauma, abuse cycle, stuff like that. So we're
<v Speaker 1>not gonna get graphic into anything, but if any of
<v Speaker 1>those topics that all would be triggering for you, just
<v Speaker 1>want to give every of heads up that we're probably
<v Speaker 1>gonna talk about stuff like that, because I don't know
<v Speaker 1>how you can talk about Allison specifically without talking about
<v Speaker 1>trauma and abuse cycles. So I guess first off, I
<v Speaker 1>will say I'm team Black.
<v Speaker 3>I'm also team black. Is there another team?
<v Speaker 1>I don't think there is anybody in here? Yeahs anybody
<v Speaker 1>in here? Team Green? It's okay, are we won't attack
<v Speaker 1>you yet. But I found really fascinating. One is that
<v Speaker 1>how much this show centers two female leads kind of
<v Speaker 1>as the crux, like a friendship basically as the crux
<v Speaker 1>of it, and watching how to women become such different
<v Speaker 1>people even though they kind of start somewhat in the
<v Speaker 1>same place and as friends. So, I guess, do you
<v Speaker 1>guys have any thoughts off the rip about Raniera or Allison?
<v Speaker 4>So when I think about Alison, I think about somebody
<v Speaker 4>who is coming from the framework of fear. It's very
<v Speaker 4>We went back and rewatched some of the first season,
<v Speaker 4>and it's really clear that she's raised to be afraid
<v Speaker 4>very much, and that she also we also see her
<v Speaker 4>in the first season where we also see the shift
<v Speaker 4>that she feels of being used by her father to
<v Speaker 4>get for him to get to whatever rank he wants
<v Speaker 4>to get to, right like he wants to have all
<v Speaker 4>the power, he wants to have a king.
<v Speaker 3>He wants to be the boss of the king, basically
<v Speaker 3>is what I feel like Attam really wants.
<v Speaker 4>And I feel like that's a part of the reason
<v Speaker 4>why Allison's response to everything is so different than what
<v Speaker 4>we see in Raniera, which is someone who has been
<v Speaker 4>raised by with love and connection, and I feel like
<v Speaker 4>that's also why we see them be such different mothers
<v Speaker 4>as well.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I would I would just add about Rania.
<v Speaker 2>I think that there's an interesting sort of tension, uh
<v Speaker 2>for Rania as someone who was raised.
<v Speaker 3>In privilege, right, like she's going home, she was gonna
<v Speaker 3>be the heir, should have been the air a.
<v Speaker 2>Different conversation, But she is someone who was raised in
<v Speaker 2>privilege and also is raised in this time where as
<v Speaker 2>a woman, she has very little privileges, right, So there's
<v Speaker 2>this tension.
<v Speaker 3>Within her that I think we see throughout.
<v Speaker 2>And so I think to that point about Alison being
<v Speaker 2>sort of raised in fear, I think Raniera is raised
<v Speaker 2>in constant conflict. So she has so much power, so
<v Speaker 2>much privilege, she has so much power, right, and still
<v Speaker 2>it's like you're a woman here, a woman here, a
<v Speaker 2>woman like she is gonna forget. But I think it's
<v Speaker 2>just very interesting. She has a very conflictual I think life,
<v Speaker 2>both figuratively and literally.
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you're bringing up a great point where
<v Speaker 1>this is where Visius can really poop the bed you
<v Speaker 1>and try to keep this Pegma language in encouraging that
<v Speaker 1>conflict right, because I make you my heir, and I
<v Speaker 1>try to act like I'm doing some like deeply feminist thing. Right.
<v Speaker 1>He's like the dad that like keeps saying he's a
<v Speaker 1>feminist and like maybe even like reads books about feminism.
<v Speaker 1>But yet when I bring my daughter into who's my
<v Speaker 1>heir into the High Council, she's our waitress, yes, like
<v Speaker 1>I like still struggling to not put her in a
<v Speaker 1>feminine role even though he needs to.
<v Speaker 3>Like the way he can.
<v Speaker 1>Protect her is by raising her more like his air,
<v Speaker 1>more like a male heir would be, and also teaching
<v Speaker 1>her to defend herself too, Like I think just now
<v Speaker 1>in the show, is she learning combat?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like those kind of things too.
<v Speaker 1>Like once he decided to make her his heir, he
<v Speaker 1>really doesn't do anything different in terms of preparing her
<v Speaker 1>to be his heir. She's still just let's find you
<v Speaker 1>a husband, let's you know, you're still coming to the meetings,
<v Speaker 1>but you're still like bearing the cups, like he doesn't
<v Speaker 1>do any of the things. But then again, well I
<v Speaker 1>guess he doesn't do with eggon either, but that's on
<v Speaker 1>purpose ish, But like this very like lazy approach he takes,
<v Speaker 1>which I feel like is so vicious. He is that
<v Speaker 1>more benevolent problems where he just doesn't understand where he
<v Speaker 1>is letting her down. And he shows up in these
<v Speaker 1>big ways, right like when he shows up as basically
<v Speaker 1>a skeleton to reaffirm her airdom, but he still doesn't
<v Speaker 1>really put anything in place to keep her safe moving forward.
<v Speaker 4>You know, I feel like he doesn't even he doesn't
<v Speaker 4>even consider the struggle that she's going to have.
<v Speaker 1>That's that's like like thalting Winter Soldier. When Sam talks
<v Speaker 1>about like being Captain America and you guys didn't think
<v Speaker 1>about me being black when you were like, just be
<v Speaker 1>Captain America. It's like the same idea for sure.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, he doesn't he doesn't even think about it.
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's a real I think it's a.
<v Speaker 4>Really half assed job that he's doing mhm of not
<v Speaker 4>bringing her in and treating her the way that she
<v Speaker 4>should be treated.
<v Speaker 3>And I think we're seeing the unfolding of that in
<v Speaker 3>the second season.
<v Speaker 2>You know what's wild too, is that he actually has
<v Speaker 2>an awareness, right Like, how many times throughout the first
<v Speaker 2>season does he say like, they will not accept you
<v Speaker 2>did it at whatever he's saying about, like the people.
<v Speaker 2>But then sir, you're not doing anything. Also, you're the
<v Speaker 2>whole king sir, like you didn't make things right.
<v Speaker 4>It feels like there's so many different ways he could
<v Speaker 4>have supported her instead of in private only that's the
<v Speaker 4>only time that he's really behind hers when they're in private.
<v Speaker 4>I wish Thissarius had more of a spine, especially even
<v Speaker 4>with Damon. Even if we think about Damon, he really
<v Speaker 4>should have curtailed his shit apologies not cursing, he really didn't.
<v Speaker 4>He just continues to not support the people behind what
<v Speaker 4>he's going to do, like he should have been talking
<v Speaker 4>to Damon for a really long time about what his
<v Speaker 4>plan was going to be. I think the other really
<v Speaker 4>shitty thing that he does that Rania is he makes
<v Speaker 4>that decision way too late. Yes, he makes that decision
<v Speaker 4>like another old white man that we know of who
<v Speaker 4>also waited to mf and long to make a decision
<v Speaker 4>that somebody else should be doing the work.
<v Speaker 1>So so so I.
<v Speaker 4>Really just feel like he did the least and I
<v Speaker 4>think that really is showing up.
<v Speaker 3>And I think that's a.
<v Speaker 4>Part of why we see the conflict that we're experiencing
<v Speaker 4>between and the rest of the realm, and.
<v Speaker 1>I think you brought a great point too, and like
<v Speaker 1>I was of I think, like most people, I was
<v Speaker 1>really anti Allison by the end of the second season.
<v Speaker 1>I don't well at the end of the first season.
<v Speaker 1>I think that's how they kind of did it right.
<v Speaker 1>And rewatching the first two episodes of the show this
<v Speaker 1>past week, Raymie, really remember how young she is when
<v Speaker 1>the show starts, and how anxious she is. I don't
<v Speaker 1>think that's something I clocked right away, but she's constantly
<v Speaker 1>like screwing with her cuticles, which is also something I
<v Speaker 1>do when I'm restless or anxious, and to watch her
<v Speaker 1>understand the world, like I think you can see in
<v Speaker 1>the first few episodes that she's really starting to understand
<v Speaker 1>the world that she's in as a woman because her
<v Speaker 1>mother just died I think right before the show started.
<v Speaker 1>So as far as I know, she's come to court
<v Speaker 1>with her father post mom's death, and it's like a
<v Speaker 1>whole new world, and she's immediately being groomed groomed, yes,
<v Speaker 1>And the look on her face when she realizes why
<v Speaker 1>her dad sending her to see Vaserris is such a bummer,
<v Speaker 1>And so I think she does what a lot of
<v Speaker 1>women do do, unfortunately within patriarchal structures, is that she
<v Speaker 1>makes a choice, right, you either have to fight against it,
<v Speaker 1>which Rania has the privilege to do, or you try
<v Speaker 1>to fawn your way through it. So fawning is a
<v Speaker 1>trauma response not a lot of people are aware of
<v Speaker 1>because it can look like you're just fine or you're
<v Speaker 1>almost maybe into it. Like fawning is trying to make
<v Speaker 1>the situation palatable for yourself and everybody else, so that
<v Speaker 1>if I'm pleasing, I will get the least amount of.
<v Speaker 3>Harm done to me.
<v Speaker 1>And so a lot of people don't know what fawning is,
<v Speaker 1>and they also don't respect fawning is a trauma reaction.
<v Speaker 1>A lot of people like to victim blame via fawning
<v Speaker 1>or you know, because of fawning. And I think with her,
<v Speaker 1>you just see someone who and like I said, a
<v Speaker 1>lot of women do this where they're like, Okay, I'm
<v Speaker 1>just gonna be good with a miss framework and so
<v Speaker 1>then I'll be safe and everything will be okay. And
<v Speaker 1>I think with her too, because she's probably smart, just
<v Speaker 1>seems smart to me. I can access power by playing
<v Speaker 1>the game. And I think you watch so much of
<v Speaker 1>her evolution over the show, trying to gain power for
<v Speaker 1>herself in these very different ways, through religion, through viseras,
<v Speaker 1>through her children, through her dad, almost and she can't
<v Speaker 1>get it because well, Rayne's was correct when she read
<v Speaker 1>her down in season one where she was like, you're
<v Speaker 1>trying to make a window in your cell, babe, and
<v Speaker 1>I'm not trying to be in this prison period.
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like that was part of her character
<v Speaker 2>sort of, but part of her like pivot season two
<v Speaker 2>was when that house of cards of power came down
<v Speaker 2>when they excuse her from the council, and I think
<v Speaker 2>that that I think until then, I think she was
<v Speaker 2>holding on to that semblance of power and I think
<v Speaker 2>she really thought she had something, and that was one
<v Speaker 2>there were many points throughout the first two seasons I felt.
<v Speaker 3>Sorry for her.
<v Speaker 2>That was one of them. And also it was like
<v Speaker 2>ha ha, you know, like I feel like she really
<v Speaker 2>thought that she had power and it came crashing down
<v Speaker 2>so quickly.
<v Speaker 3>And then she went into the woods and did her
<v Speaker 3>retreat or whatever.
<v Speaker 4>She did, which is again to perform a place of
<v Speaker 4>privilege that she can just go out and be in
<v Speaker 4>the woods and also abandon her children, right and just
<v Speaker 4>go do whatever she wanted to do to take care
<v Speaker 4>of herself. She really is the most and I feel like,
<v Speaker 4>but we do get that look on her face when
<v Speaker 4>she's sitting at the council and they make that decision.
<v Speaker 4>It's just like you can just tell her. She's like, oh, right,
<v Speaker 4>this is just made up. Yes, this is just made up.
<v Speaker 4>I'm just a pawn in the game, and now I'm
<v Speaker 4>gonna go do whatever I want. And then also show
<v Speaker 4>up and try to make a deal with Ranierra, which
<v Speaker 4>is one hundred days too late.
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, so again I think.
<v Speaker 4>Just really seeing these two female characters really struggle, even
<v Speaker 4>though they both have a lot of privilege.
<v Speaker 2>I think a point you're making too it and I
<v Speaker 2>think that what we've been talking about. You talked about
<v Speaker 2>trauma responses and things like that being trauma informed does,
<v Speaker 2>like understanding that people have traumatic histories does not excuse
<v Speaker 2>harmful behavior, and I think that's something that as we
<v Speaker 2>are trying to navigate trauma in our own lives, right
<v Speaker 2>like my own, other like my clients, whoever, being trauma
<v Speaker 2>informed doesn't mean we affirm people's harmful behavior. And so
<v Speaker 2>like with Alison, I'm sad for you, girl, I'm sad
<v Speaker 2>you had to marry your daddy's friend.
<v Speaker 3>Like that's I'm so sad for you. And that doesn't
<v Speaker 3>mean you can And.
<v Speaker 2>You know what I'm saying, Like, I think that that
<v Speaker 2>is and I appreciate the way we're having this conversation
<v Speaker 2>because it's a both and right, it's a.
<v Speaker 3>Both and like we can both acknowledge.
<v Speaker 2>That Alison and Ramier both had like traumatic things happened
<v Speaker 2>to them, and that does not excuse harmful behavior, and
<v Speaker 2>so how do we sit with that tension? And I
<v Speaker 2>think that that's part of the reason a lot of
<v Speaker 2>people hate Alison, because it's hard to sit with that
<v Speaker 2>tension and to excuse a lot of her behavior and
<v Speaker 2>arguably Renier also, she's not blamelessness.
<v Speaker 1>No, we love a perfect victim. And yeah, I love
<v Speaker 1>what you're saying. I like to say a lot when
<v Speaker 1>I because we're active therapists too, we see clients all
<v Speaker 1>the time, and so I always say, that's an explanation,
<v Speaker 1>not an excuse, you know, which is what you're saying.
<v Speaker 1>It's validation, but it's not affirmation. And we don't get
<v Speaker 1>a free pass to treat people how we like. And
<v Speaker 1>I m and yeah, Alice is complicated. I think what's
<v Speaker 1>really interesting, I wonder what you guys think about her
<v Speaker 1>how religious she became over the course of season one,
<v Speaker 1>and how slowly unreligious she becomes post vicious as death,
<v Speaker 1>you know, because when they show up Damon and Raniera
<v Speaker 1>with their two little kids together, and she's fully like,
<v Speaker 1>we're in the head. He's in the thing, and she's
<v Speaker 1>got it up to her neck and she's like, I
<v Speaker 1>shan't show a neck or an ankle, you know, energy,
<v Speaker 1>And it's almost like she's put herself in a nunnery
<v Speaker 1>of her own making while Visius is in his deathbed.
<v Speaker 1>But then once she's he's gone, it's interesting. Once he's gone,
<v Speaker 1>she's like hair out, necklace off, Christy Coke. It's like
<v Speaker 1>she's finally which does happen? You know, it's finally in
<v Speaker 1>her thirties, because she's in her thirties, finally feeling like
<v Speaker 1>she's able to come into her own right and yeah,
<v Speaker 1>you're right, Like, what I really love in I think
<v Speaker 1>it's it is a scene where she gets picked out
<v Speaker 1>of the council that they're like, oh, they're trying to
<v Speaker 1>pick the regent, and she's and they're like, well, the
<v Speaker 1>basis of her whole campaign is that women are too
<v Speaker 1>dumb or whatever to be leaders.
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes we make you a leader.
<v Speaker 1>Like we are undercutting our whole thing, which is what
<v Speaker 1>there is this really funny she's I don't know if
<v Speaker 1>she would call herself a TV personality. I know her
<v Speaker 1>from many other things names Francesca Ramsey. She's a really
<v Speaker 1>good caller, and she has this song that she sings
<v Speaker 1>called I didn't think the Daguars would also eat my face,
<v Speaker 1>which is something she'll sing when someone is part of
<v Speaker 1>like a system that then bites them in the butt.
<v Speaker 1>And so I feel like Alison, she did not think
<v Speaker 1>the Draguars read her face, which I think is a
<v Speaker 1>common almost like unfortunately, it is a common consequence of
<v Speaker 1>trying to please the system that is also on your
<v Speaker 1>neck is that eventually you're going to hit a ceiling
<v Speaker 1>and you've only enforced that ceiling, So what did you
<v Speaker 1>think was going to happen? But I think it is
<v Speaker 1>like the Delulu. Sometimes people need to believe so they
<v Speaker 1>can keep justifying what they're doing, because that's all I can.
<v Speaker 1>All Allison's doing all day is mental gymnastics to live
<v Speaker 1>with herself.
<v Speaker 2>And to your question, I think about religion and people
<v Speaker 2>in here have seen Game of Thrones.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, I just don't be mad if I spoil this.
<v Speaker 3>We're in a rewatch now, I think rewatching forty two.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know, but we're in the season with.
<v Speaker 2>The high Sparrow and how it's so interesting that because
<v Speaker 2>that was where my mind went about how well Circe did.
<v Speaker 2>Circe is like next level of manipulative and like we
<v Speaker 2>can have a whole panel talking about her. Yeah, but
<v Speaker 2>I think the way that she sort of tried to
<v Speaker 2>align with the Church and the sept and the past,
<v Speaker 2>Like I think religion is just another power structure, and
<v Speaker 2>I think for Alison it was simultaneously comforting because I
<v Speaker 2>think people find comfort in religion. It was also I
<v Speaker 2>think a power thing for her because she had another
<v Speaker 2>sort of sense of security with the church as a system,
<v Speaker 2>just like it is in our day and age, right,
<v Speaker 2>Like the church is another structure of power, and so
<v Speaker 2>I think her sort of like I wouldn't be surprised
<v Speaker 2>if and I didn't read the book, so I don't
<v Speaker 2>know if this happens, but I wouldn't be surprised if
<v Speaker 2>she didn't pendulum swing and go back to that now
<v Speaker 2>that she has lost all semblance of like royal power,
<v Speaker 2>because I feel like she is like grasping and I
<v Speaker 2>think her religious sort of affiliations were one of those
<v Speaker 2>what was an attempt to do that sort of while
<v Speaker 2>all this uncertainty was happening as a series was dying
<v Speaker 2>for like how many years he was dying?
<v Speaker 5>He was dying for twenty years, so legitimately, yeah, And well,
<v Speaker 5>like now as you're talking about it too, it's making
<v Speaker 5>me think of I feel like her religious side really
<v Speaker 5>starts to bomb when the whole scandal comes out right
<v Speaker 5>in like episode four or five.
<v Speaker 1>Where Raniera went out of town with her uncle lover
<v Speaker 1>and you know that became scandalous because Auto has a
<v Speaker 1>big mouth, it won't stop working.
<v Speaker 3>Well, let me say this thing about.
<v Speaker 4>I think that Auto decided that he needed to get
<v Speaker 4>rid of Raniero when she shows up in the first
<v Speaker 4>season when he goes to meet Damon at Dragonstone. Yeah,
<v Speaker 4>and she shows up on her dragon and is like,
<v Speaker 4>I don't need a man to handle this, and she's
<v Speaker 4>just a teenager and she comes and she shows up
<v Speaker 4>and I think you can see an Auto's space right
<v Speaker 4>there that he's like, I got to do something about this.
<v Speaker 4>And so we see that when they come back from
<v Speaker 4>that trip, that's when her dad tries to starts trying
<v Speaker 4>to get her married off. And I feel like that's
<v Speaker 4>Auto behind the Sirius trying to get rid of Verneera
<v Speaker 4>in any way that he can or even.
<v Speaker 1>Make her ConTroll over controllable. Because I think it's also
<v Speaker 1>interesting rewatching it is that Auto is the one that
<v Speaker 1>suggests Raniera as air. But I think it's because it
<v Speaker 1>was like he knows he can't control Daemon. So I
<v Speaker 1>think in the analysis he's doing in his head is
<v Speaker 1>I have a teenage daughter and I control her, So
<v Speaker 1>let's make this teenage daughter and then I'll basically be
<v Speaker 1>king regent behind her. But then she starts to show
<v Speaker 1>pretty quickly how confident she is she's a Targarian.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I.
<v Speaker 1>Don't know how that if you combine the targarian godlike
<v Speaker 1>image and what she's been told her whole life with
<v Speaker 1>being the invincibility that all teenagers have, how can her
<v Speaker 1>and Daemon not be the most obnoxious people you'd ever
<v Speaker 1>met on planet Earth? And so I think also why
<v Speaker 1>Alison kind of dives into religion is because of that
<v Speaker 1>break too, where I mean this happens a lot where
<v Speaker 1>Allison is trying to play the game and she has
<v Speaker 1>a friend who's not playing the game and who is
<v Speaker 1>doing all the things that probably Alison secretly wants to do.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, she ends up having a relationship with the
<v Speaker 1>same guy that Ramier had a relationship with as a teenager.
<v Speaker 1>And so I think you also see Alison having a
<v Speaker 1>very understandable teenage reaction of like, that's not fair that
<v Speaker 1>you get to do what you want, and instead of
<v Speaker 1>me really acknowledging how bad I feel for myself or
<v Speaker 1>how much like pity I feel or empathy I feel
<v Speaker 1>for myself, and the fact that, like I don't get
<v Speaker 1>to do what I want, I'm going to make my
<v Speaker 1>lifestyle moral and your lifestyle immral. That way, I can
<v Speaker 1>live with my lifestyle and I can't be jealous of yours,
<v Speaker 1>because that's just like demon envy, like the devil, like
<v Speaker 1>trying to seduce me kind of stuff, right, And I
<v Speaker 1>think we see people do that all the time. I
<v Speaker 1>definitely I grew up in a more religious area in
<v Speaker 1>southern Ohio, and so I think, and I'm sure I
<v Speaker 1>did my own version of this as someone who's raised Catholic,
<v Speaker 1>which is like, ooh, those girls over there, they're bad,
<v Speaker 1>and like I'm being good by restricting myself and that's
<v Speaker 1>you know, what'll be good for me. And so to
<v Speaker 1>see Raniera succeed while also getting to do the things
<v Speaker 1>that she doesn't get to do, it would make Alison angry,
<v Speaker 1>but she doesn't really understand how to put that anger
<v Speaker 1>in a proper context other than punishing Raniera. And then
<v Speaker 1>I think she just goes right into the religion, like
<v Speaker 1>just keeps floating on them all the way down. Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>And what I appreciate too about what you're saying is
<v Speaker 2>how like comment that is for us to other, right
<v Speaker 2>and othering, Like so me and everything that's not me
<v Speaker 2>or us in them to me is not inhanentally a
<v Speaker 2>bad thing.
<v Speaker 3>Like that's how we create a friend of mine. Doctor
<v Speaker 3>Scott Jordan talks about this. He talked about creating boundaries, right,
<v Speaker 3>like that's necessary.
<v Speaker 2>What is problematic is when we devalue the other and
<v Speaker 2>so like be mad Alison, but why you gotta like
<v Speaker 2>why you gotta.
<v Speaker 3>Call like rnero or like that's the thing like that
<v Speaker 3>we don't need to be doing it. And so I
<v Speaker 3>appreciate what you're saying, because again, it's not that because
<v Speaker 3>there was a there was.
<v Speaker 2>I think it was the last episode of season two
<v Speaker 2>when Allison just randomly showed up at dragon Stone.
<v Speaker 3>And there's yeah, girls come from like whatever.
<v Speaker 2>But I think it was in the conversation that she
<v Speaker 2>was having with Raniera, and I think she was sort
<v Speaker 2>of open about all of the things that you mentioned
<v Speaker 2>about how she felt about her and all these things,
<v Speaker 2>and I felt that.
<v Speaker 3>In my soul.
<v Speaker 2>I was like, damn, like I've been there, right, As
<v Speaker 2>someone who has was in school for like four hundred years,
<v Speaker 2>I had to put a lot of my life on
<v Speaker 2>hold that people my age, you know, are having kids
<v Speaker 2>that are going to college and me like, oh, I'm
<v Speaker 2>gonna be sixty years old taking my kid to kindergarten
<v Speaker 2>like whatever, right, And there is absolutely some envy that happens,
<v Speaker 2>and I think I have to go acknowledge that that's amazing,
<v Speaker 2>that's not the other people's issue that I feel that
<v Speaker 2>kind of.
<v Speaker 3>Way, And I think that that's what you're describing. I
<v Speaker 3>think if Allison.
<v Speaker 2>Would have acknowledged that she felt the way she felt
<v Speaker 2>without devaluing Raniera, I would think about her in a
<v Speaker 2>very different way.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think she also really struggles, which is not
<v Speaker 1>uncommon to see outside her own world view. It makes
<v Speaker 1>me curious when Allison shows up to be like, hey girl,
<v Speaker 1>let's just film on Louise. I wonder if she's thinking, like,
<v Speaker 1>we're both having a bad time, right, like I've been
<v Speaker 1>faking it this long? Have you been faking it this long?
<v Speaker 1>Let's piece up together. And what she doesn't understand and
<v Speaker 1>what Rainier is trying to explain to her but can't
<v Speaker 1>is no, this means something to me.
<v Speaker 3>I wasn't just.
<v Speaker 1>Going along to please all the people around me. You're
<v Speaker 1>taking something. Not only you're taking something meaningful me, but
<v Speaker 1>you've made me really care about it. And so now
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to take this all the way to the
<v Speaker 1>end and I'm gonna have to kill your kids now,
<v Speaker 1>Like I think, what really upsets me and how we're
<v Speaker 1>talking about how Allison's are written in fear is the
<v Speaker 1>way that Auto, which is so he Raniera when their kids,
<v Speaker 1>Rinier seems like the only safe person for Allison, and
<v Speaker 1>I think, what's so awful about what Auto does is
<v Speaker 1>he continuously erodes that relationship. It's very controlling, abusive, like
<v Speaker 1>isolating kind of thing of like repeatedly convincing Alison, she's
<v Speaker 1>gonna kill you, she's gonna kill your kids, there's no
<v Speaker 1>peace here, and like shaking her, like literally shaking the
<v Speaker 1>hell out of her and being like grow up, when
<v Speaker 1>in actuality, what we know is that Raniera wouldn't have
<v Speaker 1>done that. And it's so horrible how these power systems
<v Speaker 1>will erode our trust in each other and not let
<v Speaker 1>us listen to our instincts and even make our instincts
<v Speaker 1>seem like they are stupid. And I think when you
<v Speaker 1>have someone who's based in fear, which is Alison, someone
<v Speaker 1>based in love or more love and support like Rania
<v Speaker 1>and trying to make her confident even though it's not
<v Speaker 1>really pulling it off. I think it's really interesting too
<v Speaker 1>how that trickles down to their kids and their relationship
<v Speaker 1>to their kids. I think a great example of this,
<v Speaker 1>and I'll throw it to you too, is how we
<v Speaker 1>see with Allison, like especially when they have that like.
<v Speaker 3>The scene where Vita hers is having sex with her.
<v Speaker 1>I think that's as generous I can be about it.
<v Speaker 1>She's someone who has started to dissociate right like she
<v Speaker 1>is on the moon when that's happening. And so when
<v Speaker 1>you start to clock out emotionally, especially during those kind
<v Speaker 1>of moments, you will struggle potentially to I'm a child therapist,
<v Speaker 1>so you'll struggle to attach to your kids, right and
<v Speaker 1>even if you're present physically but you are absent mentally
<v Speaker 1>or emotionally, that attachment will unfortunately not be secure.
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of people think I.
<v Speaker 1>Can just be physically present with my kids and that'll
<v Speaker 1>be enough, and I can make I can do that,
<v Speaker 1>especially with people who have had kids through trauma or
<v Speaker 1>traumatic relationships. What in actuality like you have to be
<v Speaker 1>able to be present completely and she can't really do that.
<v Speaker 1>And so when you have these moments where she's trying
<v Speaker 1>to connect to Helena into Agon when they're going through
<v Speaker 1>their big grief.
<v Speaker 3>She can't.
<v Speaker 1>And I think it's a great example of how like
<v Speaker 1>if you're never taught how to do something, if you're
<v Speaker 1>never shown, if you're never modeled, you don't always just
<v Speaker 1>know how to do it. Sometimes you can, since people
<v Speaker 1>are really naturally resilient and they can just figure out
<v Speaker 1>the kind of intuitively how to do things that they
<v Speaker 1>weren't shown by their parents. But I think a lot
<v Speaker 1>of times, unfortunately, what we see with Alison and her
<v Speaker 1>kids is what that will look like unless someone intercedes
<v Speaker 1>and shows them a different way. And I think they
<v Speaker 1>showed us such a great job of demonstrating how different
<v Speaker 1>Rania's kids and Alison's kids are, just based solely on
<v Speaker 1>the way they're parented.
<v Speaker 3>I will say, to the point about kids, Jaz really
<v Speaker 3>let me down at the end of the day.
<v Speaker 2>But I get it. I get it too, But I'm like,
<v Speaker 2>really bro like really I guess.
<v Speaker 3>With him, I feel like I think it's maybe he's
<v Speaker 3>over there.
<v Speaker 4>I think he is a product of the patriarchy that
<v Speaker 4>the rest of them are also a part of, and
<v Speaker 4>he's getting raised in the same story, and he wants
<v Speaker 4>to feel special, and he doesn't feel special anymore, and
<v Speaker 4>he doesn't know what his identity is without being special.
<v Speaker 2>And I think to the point too about the parenting,
<v Speaker 2>I think I call Auto lovingly plash going, but I
<v Speaker 2>think his relationship that we see with Alison is very
<v Speaker 2>transactional to the point that you were making, whereas even
<v Speaker 2>the serious relationship with her Nara and Nara's relationship with
<v Speaker 2>her all she had so many kids, so many kids,
<v Speaker 2>even even David's kids, right, it's not transactional. And I
<v Speaker 2>think that that is what you're pointing to, is we
<v Speaker 2>see Alison. Everything that she does with her kids I
<v Speaker 2>think is transactional. It's very much like what can you
<v Speaker 2>do for me? This is what we need to do.
<v Speaker 2>And maybe some of that is a product of their
<v Speaker 2>royal and that's what they gotta do. I don't know,
<v Speaker 2>but I think it's very clear that it is a
<v Speaker 2>means to an end. I think with her in her
<v Speaker 2>relationship with her kids and with Brenera, it's very very different.
<v Speaker 2>I think the beginning of season two, that scene with
<v Speaker 2>Brenera and Jays when after lucerastat that was too much.
<v Speaker 3>That was a beautiful.
<v Speaker 1>Scene and also like such a brutal juxtaposition of Alison
<v Speaker 1>seeing egg On weeping and just staring at him and
<v Speaker 1>walking away like that was such a perfect opportunity to
<v Speaker 1>change the script between the two of them, right, and
<v Speaker 1>to show something different, and I think unfortunately that is
<v Speaker 1>more realistic, like her seeing him I think panicking, and
<v Speaker 1>I think with Helena she feels the safest maybe because
<v Speaker 1>Elena is a girl, you know, and maybe on the spectrum.
<v Speaker 1>But I think that's another good case where even with Helena,
<v Speaker 1>as soon as there is a barrier, which is maybe
<v Speaker 1>that she's very divergent, Alison can't flex. She can't figure
<v Speaker 1>out an end to that either. And I'm such a
<v Speaker 1>soft spot for jasaras I think because I work with teenagers,
<v Speaker 1>but like, you're not wrong, But also I think him
<v Speaker 1>even having those discussions with Ramier is such a good
<v Speaker 1>show of how actually like good relationship they have, yes
<v Speaker 1>that he can challenge her. She even when she pisses
<v Speaker 1>her off, she's like, I'm listening and I'm hearing and
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, But like she does, she actually does a
<v Speaker 1>good job of like I'm hearing the way you're feeling,
<v Speaker 1>validating you, and I'm going to get some poor people
<v Speaker 1>on these dragons are the.
<v Speaker 3>Small folks, so you better.
<v Speaker 1>But I do think something where she does have the
<v Speaker 1>Visara's energy with her kids is the fact that they
<v Speaker 1>are clearly not Lenor's kids. I know why she no
<v Speaker 1>one ever can really acknowledge it, even her to them,
<v Speaker 1>because of just the safety components so intense, and she's
<v Speaker 1>already someone who is on the razor's edge of like
<v Speaker 1>being in.
<v Speaker 3>Everyone's good graces.
<v Speaker 1>But I think that is the part where she really
<v Speaker 1>takes like out of Visara's playbook of like, if something's
<v Speaker 1>too uncomfortable, we just won't acknowledge it, Like we're just
<v Speaker 1>gonna keep putting it under the rug. Putting under the
<v Speaker 1>rug when you couldn't have kids that looked more like
<v Speaker 1>their daddy more like and like the fact that he
<v Speaker 1>even brought up I was like, Oh, we're gonna.
<v Speaker 3>Have this fight.
<v Speaker 1>Fine, really, but that was a fight they were always
<v Speaker 1>gonna have.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I'm just siaus.
<v Speaker 1>At some point because he was always I mean, everyone knew.
<v Speaker 1>Everybody knew. Yeah, that conversation was long overdue. And even
<v Speaker 1>though I was like, oh, this is not the time,
<v Speaker 1>I was also like, but he's not wrong for what
<v Speaker 1>teenager wouldn't be feeling like they've been keeping that in
<v Speaker 1>their back pocket to throw on their mom's face when
<v Speaker 1>they're really in it. They're like, I've been waiting to
<v Speaker 1>launch this duke get you.
<v Speaker 3>And now I haven't.
<v Speaker 1>And they was see very validated. That would be something
<v Speaker 1>a teenager in my office would be like, well, and
<v Speaker 1>I'd be like, Okay, I get it, and I get
<v Speaker 1>way felt they need to do it, and time on
<v Speaker 1>place I have hard conversations. So we have about ten
<v Speaker 1>minutes left. We definitely can keep on the apping, but
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to make room for questions or thoughts. If
<v Speaker 1>anyone had any, you can just raise your hand. If not,
<v Speaker 1>it's also totally okay. Let me ask you this question.
<v Speaker 1>Who in here thinks that Damon really loves Raniera?
<v Speaker 3>Show up hands way less than I thought.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, can you give me a why?
<v Speaker 4>M Yeah, because because he can't because a part of
<v Speaker 4>his identity. He can't love Reniera completely because a part
<v Speaker 4>of his identity can't because he wants to be king
<v Speaker 4>so bad. I don't think Damon loves anybody besides himself
<v Speaker 4>and the idea of being the king.
<v Speaker 3>That's all. That's what I think Damon has got in him,
<v Speaker 3>and that's it.
<v Speaker 4>I don't even really truly believe that he loves Visius
<v Speaker 4>because Zarus is the biggest barrier to the only thing
<v Speaker 4>that he seems to give a fly.
<v Speaker 3>In f about.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and respect him as much as he
<v Speaker 4>can as a sick old man, right, because he also
<v Speaker 4>doesn't hold any like the things that Damon finds value
<v Speaker 4>in is not like the Cyrus, is not that he's
<v Speaker 4>basically the antithesis of that.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Thos.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think or I can have empathy for
<v Speaker 1>Damon is a therapist.
<v Speaker 3>You always have to practice a lot of empathy or
<v Speaker 3>you don't for fake characters. Well, in this I know.
<v Speaker 1>Is I don't know how being raised with that environ
<v Speaker 1>can't be so screwy for your mentality, for your mental health,
<v Speaker 1>like your identity to be treated like the spare you
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean, to be in this like competitive
<v Speaker 1>space with your family where you can't really.
<v Speaker 3>You can love each.
<v Speaker 1>Other sort of, but you're also in this like continuously
<v Speaker 1>comparative adversarial space. And so I think I see with
<v Speaker 1>Damon a lot of attempts to love people and a
<v Speaker 1>lot of attempts to like figure out who he is
<v Speaker 1>if he's not going to be the air like him.
<v Speaker 1>I think he tries to love Lena, and he tries
<v Speaker 1>to settle down in that place wherever they were at
<v Speaker 1>when she's pregnant, right. I think I think what he
<v Speaker 1>can feel confusing as a character is he's trying on
<v Speaker 1>all of these identities but like someone who has like
<v Speaker 1>maybe a personag disort or something like that, like a
<v Speaker 1>central factor of personal disorders that I think people don't
<v Speaker 1>quite understand. And that's why we can someone's like empathy,
<v Speaker 1>is that the sense of self is really hard to find.
<v Speaker 1>It's just not like innate as it can be with
<v Speaker 1>like other people. And so I think he's almost like
<v Speaker 1>a classic example of like, well, maybe I can be
<v Speaker 1>a really good police chief in King's Land commander of
<v Speaker 1>the Guard, and I'm gonna go totally hamm on that, but.
<v Speaker 3>In a way that's not quite right. And then I'm gonna.
<v Speaker 1>Try to be, you know, this crab feeder fighter, but
<v Speaker 1>I also kind of do that wrong, and I come
<v Speaker 1>and wearing a crown and like wanting a lot of attention.
<v Speaker 1>It's like, and then maybe I can be good to
<v Speaker 1>reneer it. And then it gets a loan by himself
<v Speaker 1>in Hairn Hall, and then his like his little thoughts
<v Speaker 1>start tinkling. It's like when I work with people personal disorders,
<v Speaker 1>and this is not to disparage anyone that has them,
<v Speaker 1>is that you can be really influenced by the current
<v Speaker 1>environment you're in. And so I think we see with
<v Speaker 1>him that he's getting influenced a lot by like assume.
<v Speaker 1>As ran Er shows up at hair in Hall, He's like, okay,
<v Speaker 1>you call me baby girl. Like they have they are
<v Speaker 1>matching each other's freak. I hate to say it, but
<v Speaker 1>when she shows up, the look on their face at
<v Speaker 1>each other, I'm like, ain't nobody got to match their
<v Speaker 1>freak because it's with each other, And he like very
<v Speaker 1>easily is like okay, Like I know what my role
<v Speaker 1>is now that mommy has shown up again and he
<v Speaker 1>doesn't fight her.
<v Speaker 3>It's really interesting. And I do think Damon loves Rania
<v Speaker 3>and I think he loves her, which I just have
<v Speaker 3>to continue to acknowledge how girlst it is in so
<v Speaker 3>many ways.
<v Speaker 2>And I think that he loves her in his way,
<v Speaker 2>like I think that love looks different for a lot
<v Speaker 2>of folks, and I think he absolutely and equivocally loves
<v Speaker 2>her in a Damon way.
<v Speaker 3>That's not the way I express love. That's not the
<v Speaker 3>way I would.
<v Speaker 1>Want someone to express love to me, Like give a.
<v Speaker 2>David way, babe, And like you said, man, if you
<v Speaker 2>work for them, like more power.
<v Speaker 3>To you live your best life. I think that's a
<v Speaker 3>larger question though, is.
<v Speaker 2>Does it work for them because so much of their
<v Speaker 2>relationship has been rooted in.
<v Speaker 3>This quest to get her.
<v Speaker 2>Like, what outside of their relationship is not like I
<v Speaker 2>don't want to call it traumatic or dramatic, but what
<v Speaker 2>like their whole relationship is rooted in this thing.
<v Speaker 3>What are they going to do when eventually the does symbols?
<v Speaker 5>Like?
<v Speaker 3>What is that going to look at?
<v Speaker 4>It makes me think of people who have relationships outside
<v Speaker 4>of marriage and how it can only exist in this
<v Speaker 4>really specific way and can exist in any other way.
<v Speaker 4>Like people who have relationships outside of marriages, they often.
<v Speaker 3>A big part of that is the secrecy.
<v Speaker 4>A big part of that is the acting like a
<v Speaker 4>different person almost, Yeah, the thrill of being connected in
<v Speaker 4>that way. And so I feel like that's what they
<v Speaker 4>have when they're together. They can do it, but only
<v Speaker 4>in front of each other, and they can't do it
<v Speaker 4>in any other way because it very much the circumstances
<v Speaker 4>have to be just so in order for that to work.
<v Speaker 1>I just what she could have been with Haran Strong,
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, He's the only man who
<v Speaker 1>wanted nothing from her but her I.
<v Speaker 3>Needed to want.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And I also think which I really like about
<v Speaker 1>the flashbacks we actually they were the dreams in season
<v Speaker 1>two is how much their relationship. I think if they
<v Speaker 1>came into like marriage and family therapy, how much do
<v Speaker 1>you think their stuff would keep coming back to, like
<v Speaker 1>the formation, like her as a teenager and him as
<v Speaker 1>like this kind of swashbuckling hero that would come in
<v Speaker 1>and out of her life. Like I think they also
<v Speaker 1>are a victim of that time of their life, like
<v Speaker 1>kind of what you're saying they got. They kind of
<v Speaker 1>were chasing each other and it was very like thirty
<v Speaker 1>and sexy and forbidden, and you know, the dad didn't
<v Speaker 1>want it to happen obviously, And so I wonder if
<v Speaker 1>there are people that always keep going back to that
<v Speaker 1>part of their life and also for her too, or
<v Speaker 1>I think when Rinier chases chases him, but like goes
<v Speaker 1>after him and is like, we've been happy about you.
<v Speaker 1>That's a combination not grieving the loss of your cousin
<v Speaker 1>husband and your lover husband, and then I think having
<v Speaker 1>that really nostalgic, like toxic nostalgia people can have for
<v Speaker 1>like old crushes and high school boyfriends and this idea
<v Speaker 1>that like it was all good when we were almost
<v Speaker 1>a thing or we were a thing, and so we
<v Speaker 1>set to get back to that and feeling like that'll
<v Speaker 1>fix everything, and it does for a little while, and
<v Speaker 1>then things get hard. And I think Damon is also
<v Speaker 1>that husband or the partner where like things can be
<v Speaker 1>okay until there's actual stressors and then I'm gonna choke you.
<v Speaker 1>That was in your battle, like your planning room, and.
<v Speaker 3>That was that was hard. That was I mean, it
<v Speaker 3>does I always forget.
<v Speaker 6>That he did murder his I'm saying he's straight up
<v Speaker 6>murdered his first wife hard in the in the daylight,
<v Speaker 6>right in the daylight, he had he had his criminal
<v Speaker 6>I'll cloak on.
<v Speaker 1>What are some of our final thoughts here? I guess
<v Speaker 1>where do you think things are going to go next?
<v Speaker 1>For Allison? I'm really curious about that because it veers
<v Speaker 1>off from the book because I did read Fire and Blood,
<v Speaker 1>but it's very different. Allison's very different in the book.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I didn't read the books because and for a like.
<v Speaker 2>I I would actually o clear, she just went away
<v Speaker 2>and I hope that she this, she.
<v Speaker 3>Discovers what she wants because again she.
<v Speaker 2>Was just throw us into all these good relationships and
<v Speaker 2>then she had kids and it's like girl what you like?
<v Speaker 3>What do you want? Don't know anything about it?
<v Speaker 1>He's plying it on that dragon and he locked up
<v Speaker 1>his Grandpapy, like what we do? It doesn't seem like
<v Speaker 1>they do like and I think that's I mean, it
<v Speaker 1>does say a lot about her self awareness when she's
<v Speaker 1>like Darren's kind but where she still has a lot
<v Speaker 1>of work to do. Is it seems like she very
<v Speaker 1>is also like, well it's just the environment. But maybe me,
<v Speaker 1>but I don't know, maybe not me though.
<v Speaker 4>I think Allison is going to find a way to
<v Speaker 4>find another identity because I don't think she knows what
<v Speaker 4>to do. And I think that that's what we're and
<v Speaker 4>I think that that's partially what we're going to see
<v Speaker 4>it go ahead.
<v Speaker 1>That's a because I think is anything that.
<v Speaker 3>Is hers.
<v Speaker 1>And she.
<v Speaker 3>And she.
<v Speaker 4>It can't be real, it can't be real, so she
<v Speaker 4>can't she can't hold it for herself. So I think
<v Speaker 4>I think that's I think that's what we're going to see.
<v Speaker 4>I think she's going to try and find another identity however,
<v Speaker 4>how in any way, shape or form she can.
<v Speaker 3>That was such an amazing scene.
<v Speaker 2>I'm so happy you brought that up in the set
<v Speaker 2>and just seeing like Ranier's face because she had the
<v Speaker 2>whole thing.
<v Speaker 1>Oh m h yeah, Ali said, I don't really know
<v Speaker 1>because I feel like they're kind of doing their own
<v Speaker 1>thing in the show with her, But I'm enjoying it.
<v Speaker 1>Like where it's going. It's way more deep And I
<v Speaker 1>guess I just also want to say, as soon as
<v Speaker 1>she the day after Vizaris died, and as soon as
<v Speaker 1>she realized that they've been Plattin and Plattin to put
<v Speaker 1>to you Sir Rania all along, that would have been
<v Speaker 1>the time for her to be like, oh, maybe this
<v Speaker 1>is bad and maybe I should switch sides. And I
<v Speaker 1>still like, I think as long as Otto was in
<v Speaker 1>that King's landing, she couldn't change.
<v Speaker 3>Where can people find you, Bassing.
<v Speaker 2>I'm on all forms of social media at doctor van
<v Speaker 2>as it hits hi in TZ and thank you all
<v Speaker 2>so much for coming.
<v Speaker 3>This is a lovely conversation, and thank you all
<v Speaker 1>For the oh yeah, thank you so much,