Brave with Rachel Anne Clarke

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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, how are you? Okay? Cool, very smooth intro to the show. Okay, so we don't have the ability to play our theme song tonight. So here's what we're thinking. You guys know the words right, yes, okay, we have a solid four people willing to participate in this sick exercise we just came up with. Okay, should we just count a man? One two three? No one started there? Okay, wait, okay, I'm gonna count to three and then someone someone take the lead please Okay, one, two three, good job, thank you, that's the show. Just kidding. Hi, Hello, wow, so ah, what's ukon? I've been wanting to say that since I saw What a Girl Wants? What's up in London? Thank you so much for being here. We're so excited. Is our first show in London or out of the country at all? We're so psycked. Thank you for singing our song for us. That was truly better. You just put a bunch of female musicians out of a job. Hateful. So this is this is the Bechtel Cast? Where is it the women in Film show? As the sign indicates, we got dumb our own venue? Close enough? No, sounds like a good show. Yeah, we are the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Dronte. My name is Jamie Loftus And uh. We talked about the representation of women in movies, as you probably know because you're here. That was where actually we got the name for the podcast, which is the Women in Film Podcast. But the the real, the canonical name of the podcast is the Bechtel Cast. Just clapping up. If you have listened to the Betel Cast before, I love it. Uh and then uh and it's okay. If if you have been brought here and you haven't listened to the show before, please also clap yes, yes, yes, a few see what they did. Brave, thank you, thank you. That was that was a thinker. That was a time, real, real hand scratcher. But yeah, we're the Becktel Cast. We are. We talk about women in film and we use the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for our discussion. Yes, and if you're not familiar with that, what that is. It is a media metric creative our cartoonist Alice and Bechtel also sometimes own as a Becktel Wallace test. Uh. And it requires that two female identifying characters with names talk to each other about something other than a man, and you would think it would happen all the time, But then there's most of the Star Wars and also other movies. Shall we demonstrate it? Yes? Please? Okay? Um, I have one ready. Yes, I wrote it down to hey Jamie, yes, um, Sorry I almost sucked it up. Did you know that we have someone here in the audience tonight named Kay whose birthday it is? Yes? I did I read that? Dear where's Katie? Oh? Hai? Kay? Oh my god? Happy birthday? Sing too. We already know you can sing you sick aus? Wait can we sing happy birthday? Okay? You guys know how to do it. It doesn't one to Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, Happy dear Caseyay? Wow. Isn't anyone else's birthday? Birth? Okay? Wait, it is your birthday? I know someone isn't. Someone tweeted? Someone just tweet there like it's my birthday and I'm in the front room. That was you? Wait, Oh my god, it's everyone's birthday. This is so Wait whose birthday is it? It's you birthday Friday. We'll get out of here, god, Okay, Well, I Happy birthday, Happy belated birthday, Virgo, what's your name? Don't know what that means? Claire, Happy belated birthday? And what's your is it your birthday? Oh? Okay, it was also Friday. What's your name? Clementine? Happy birthday, Claren, Clementine. Like so many good sea names, hard continent love a hard continent really gets the night started up, right, man? So yeah, we were so we're so packed to be here. We tried to choose movies appropriately. So this this one really works because it doesn't take place in this country, but it's close. Yeah. Point for effort. Yes, uh. And we have a guest here to join our discussion. She is a comedian from Glasgow. She is a co ho of a live show they're in Glasgow called The Salon. Give it up for the very funny Rachel Ann Clark. Hello, what's up? Thanks for being here, Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. So Women and Film, Women in Film and their podcast, So we're talking about Brave. Of course, this is my This is the best movie for us to cover because I can just say Brave all the time. So everything that happens in this movie is brave. Yes. And the show, the show that we're doing after this one is the favorite, and if you mash them together, it's the Braver Wite night there. So I was very impressed with it, thank you. Not anyone else was, but by round of applause, who has seen the movie Brave? Brave? Is there is there anyone who has not seen Brave? Clap coward? It's called an inversion. So, Rachel, and what's your history your relationship with Brave? Well, apart from the obvious, he came out in and I was unemployed because I just graduated and media, so you know. Um, so it was like Brave was coming out, not really into the whole Disney princess vibe usually, but I was like so quick to scrape up the last of my dull money, just like unemployment benefacture. Thank you. Even then we were very stupid. I was like counting the coppers like quick quick when you go see Brave And yeah, just like skipped to cinema to see it, and did you like it? Loved it, like really loved it for so many reasons that I will get into, but yeah, like definitely, like definitely my favorite Disney favorite. Oh the favorite this is. I really saved my bravorite, Caitly, what about you? I saw it, I don't think in theaters, but as per usual, like not long after it came out, and um, I liked it just fine. And I think it was that that was the only time I saw it until prepping for the show. But I have a greater appreciation for it now. I think I wasn't that fond of it at the time because I hadn't discovered my love of Bears yet. I needed I needed Paddington to come out two years later and then and now I'm like, Bears, what about you? What's your history? I hadn't seen it. I was. I was in college when this movie came out, so I was probably just like busy torpedoing my life. So I wasn't seeing a lot of movies at that time. But no, I hadn't seen it before. It's been on my list of just like things I wanted to watch forever. So I saw it when we were prepping a k yesterday, and um, I liked it. There were some things of it. It's so weird. I feel like, even between twenty twelve and now, the way that leading female characters are treated in movies has already changed quite a bit, and so there are it already feels in some ways to me to be a little bit dated, even though it just came out seven years ago. Um, but I think it was like a huge, like step forward in a lot of ways. I would the Okay, the thing that through me the most about this movie is in the marketing of this movie, they did in no way indicate that it's about a bare, freaky Friday. I thought it was about like if they're like, she doesn't conform to the rules, she shoots arrows. I'm like, this is fucking cool. I love this, and then they're like, also her momma mom is a You're like, where did that come from? I was truly, I was like shocked when that happened. I was like, why do that? But I guess we'll just unpack it for the next hour. But I just I didn't see the bear coming. I'm like, why did they Why was there so much bear erasure in the marketing? Like, I had no idea this is about a mom bear situation. I know. Confusing. Well, shall I get into the recap? Yes, okay, recap recap we're from We've been here for two days, so we're from here, so kind of how it works, okay, the story of Brave Mereda is a little girl in medieval Scotland and she's the cutest and she's a princess and her parents are the King and Queen. That's how that works, yep, okay, And she loves archery, and for her birthday her dad gets her a bow and arrow. Uh. And as she's practicing with it, she comes across a bunch of wisps, which are these like ethereal little like blue whispy things basically like stolen from studios. Hep right uh and as legend has it, these whisps lead you to your fate. Uh. And just then a demon bear, not Paddington, the opposite named more Do attacks Meredith's family and she and her mom escape as her father fights it off. Now we cut to ten years later. Her father, Fergus, has lost his leg in this bear attack to the mean bear bear moore Do. Mereda has three little brothers, now Hamish, Hubert and Harris, just like a little juggling balls, very cute, and Meredith's mother Lenor is teaching her how to be prim and proper so that Mereda can rule is queen one day? Uh and then when yes, there's there's stuff to talk about. When Merida, when she can, she escapes the pressures of princess life to borrow sort of a phrase from Aladdin um and she ventures off and practices her archery, which she is not. There's music playing in the background your life sure. And one day Mereda learns that three young male suitors are coming to visit from each of the neighboring clans and they're going to compete in some games and the winner will be betrothed to Merida. And this makes her furious because she does not want to get married and how old does she supposed to be? Also, she seems like I would guess like I would guess closer to six, the standard prince a stage. I wouldn't oh boy right, And so she and her mom argue, but Mereda realizes that she has no choice but to participate because it's tradition. So all they like cartoony Daddy's bringing their Scottish boys to woo her. They are McIntosh, which I think is a nod to Steve Jobs, who wanted The other major twist of the movie a tribute to Steve Jobs. At the end, You're just like what but there was because he had just died, and I guess we were still we were like, oh, he's a nice guy. Like I don't know what we were thinking, yeah something, Yeah, I mean doesn't mean he was a good person. We've all seen the Ashton Kutcher Jobs starring Ashton Kutcher. The man was a monster. So McIntosh, he's giving off off some strong William Wall spraveheart vibes mcguffin, which is a film term. And I know that because I studied screenwriting and I have a masters in it from Boston University, but I hate to mention it. I think you're getting your money's worth on that just by repeating it. Right. He's like a tall dude that no one understands when he speaks. And then Dingwall he's I don't even know what that's a reference to. That's a that's a very sophisticated reference. Yes, yes, no, I'm kidding, I don't know. He's like this little dweepy guy. So each of the suns are presented, and none of them are appealing to Meridath. And then there's too much masculine energy in the room, so a fight breaks out. Uh. And then Queen Eleanor explains how the games will go, and Meredith perks up when she hears that only the firstborns of each clan are eligible to compete. So Meredath chooses archery as the thing that they'll all compete in. She should be a lawyer. That was a very clever Oh yeah, a brave choice, I would say. And the three young men all shoot with like varying degrees of success. And then Meredith is like, um, actually is the firstborn of clan done Brock, I will be competing for my own hand. This is the best part of the whole movie. It's so exciting. Everything that happens before the bear twist is my favorite thing I've ever seen. And then the bear stuff happens, uh, and she like fucking creams. The three boys archers their arrow and like exciting, Um, does cream means something that I'm I mean, it means the same thing, and these guys does it mean? Come? Does it? What does it mean? Everyone laughed when I said, mean it's come, Kaylyn, I'm being told it means that do not for us too? Right? No, Well, I don't know my pants for Nicholas Hole. Right, just an example. Yeah, if you're for the favorite show, you'll I'll say that again, you go. But for us it can also mean brutally defeat. But you could also use it both ways. I could be like I cream for I cream for Alfred Molina, but I could cream him in a fight. Yes, right, so I mean, god, we're just also different here now, poor choice of words for me. She started a dialogue that was good, and Eleanor is furious about Mereda, like making a mockery of the whole situation. And I have a huge fight, and Mereda takes a sword and slices this tapestry of her family, and then she runs away. And Meredith comes across some wisps, the same ones that she saw as a child, and they lead her to the cottage of a witch. I like to call her convenient plot, which we we have fluids to naim, like is that a common thing? And mered is like, Hi, can you please cast a spell that will change my mom? And then which is like mm hmm, I got you, yeah, And she makes a magical cake for her mom to eat, which Eleanor does and which turns her into a bear. And then you're just like, wait, what movie of that? She turns into a bear? Yes, and they both freak out for a little bit, and then Mereda realizes it because of her father's bear vendetta. If if he steal was this the bear vendetta? Uh? If if her father sees the queen as a bear, he will try to kill her. So now Meredith has to protect her bear mom from her bear killing dad, who is also just doesn't notice that his wife is gone her like two days. And then at the end she comes back. Spoilers, she comes back, and then at the end he's like, there you are. I was like, what is this? What there? I thought he was supposed to be nice, Like he doesn't notice his wife and three of his sons are gone and meredith whole family has gone and he's just sitting around like I sure do hate bears yea. So also Meredith has to figure out how to change her mom back to being a human, and they escape from the castle and go back to the witch's cottage, but the witch isn't there anymore. That's how plot witches work. They're only there for the one scene. Yeah, but she's left a message that says by sunrise on the second day, the spell will be permanent unless she reverses it, which she needs. In order to do that, she has to mend the bond torn by pride. But they're like kind of getting some like Ursula energy there with the wording of the curse. Yeah, except but not plot relevant, like Ursula appears again and has a reason to be there, but this which is like I went to Coachella, like girls like okay, so they don't know what this means. And Mereda and her bear mom are out in the woods. They're fishing their bonding. Then her mom becomes feral for a second and Mared is like, oh my god, I gotta fix this soon. Mom is becoming a bear. Yeah. So then some wisps show up again and convenient plot whisps I like to call them. They follow the whisps to this old castle, where Meredith figures out that the demon Bear more Do used to be a prince who wanted too much power and then like trying to change his fate, which was foreshadowed by convenient plot, which foreshadowing also being the beast. Yeah right, because the least was like, Hey, you're the big scary. Yeah yeah, and there's also foreshadowed whenever her mom like, it's like legends are lessons, don't try to get too much power at the end um women having power and bed. Anyways, I'm a bear. Now there's like a twist. So then Mereda realizes that men the bond torn by pride means that she has to fix that tapestry that she cut up with the sword because women being yes, yes, this was pre shopping days, so they had to be sewing rather shopping for threat sometimes. Yeah. True. So they go back to the castle and all the men are still fighting about which son will get to marry Mereda, and she distracts all these guys with this speech. During this the bear mom plays a game of charades to communicate that she now supports Merida in breaking tradition by not getting married. So uh there there, I mean, you don't see the bear change coming. But then just the repeated bear an text, you're just like, yeah, sure, bear charades is the climax of the movie. Bear Charades, give me a break. And then they go and find the tapestry, but just then Bear Mom turns feral again, and then bear hating Daddy barges in and tries to kill bear Mom, but Daddy locks Merida in the room, and then an angry mob chases after Bear Mom and then Merida escapes with the help of her now bare brothers. Also, her brothers are bears, not too important that you know. They ate some of the cake now they're tiny little bears because they love desserts. Their most favorite dessert seems to be a pastry that looks exactly like a boob they love. Oh yeah, they make a lot of weird boob jokes. They also make a lot of jokes kind of at the expense of the woman who works at the castle. I don't remember. Yeah, yeah, there's justice for Marty, my god. So Merida escapes. She shows up the tapestry and goes to find her mom, and then outside all the men are trying to capture Bear Mom, and a more do shows up the demon bear. Wait, not enough bears in the scenes bring the other bear back and he and Bear Mom fight more Due gets crushed by Scottish Stonehenge. Scottish or that was probably offensive. Okay, your kids, maybe maybe it was their first and Stonehenge copied the Scottish Yeah so the bears crushed, more dues crushed, and then the sun starts to rise, but bear mom is still a bear, and Mered is like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. This is all my fault. And it turns out that all that needed to happen was an apology to mend the bo All she had to do is apologize to her mom, who was punishing her for no reason. She was so wrong to have not wanted to get married at sixteen to a stranger. Mereda, you goof yes, and then uh Eleanor finally turns back into a human and they all have happily ever after. There's a lot to discuss here. There's an So it's a movie about a young woman who is actively defying tradition, traditional patriarchal values, and rigid gender norm So that's not something we generally see out of a Disney Princess movie. It's about a mother who at first tries to uphold these patriarchal values and traditional gender roles. But then when Meredith turns her mom into a bear a k. When Meredith does something like very drastic to show her mom that she's not fucking around, well, when she just says, yeah, I disagree with you, and I'm sixteen, so I wish you were different. Right. She didn't ask for her mom to be a bear. That was just plot which kind of going off in her own direction. But when that happens, Eleanor starts to realize how toxic her views are and how it's destroying her relationship with her daughter, and then the story becomes about doing away with these toxic views and repairing the mother daughter relationships. So at the core, that's to me what this movie is about. Yeah, I mostly agree with that, but then there's a little part and me that's like, as her mom just saying that because she's a bear, Right, you would say anything to not be a bear? Yeah, just say I'm a bear? Night. What do I know? What's more important as hard not getting maddied and then maybe I'll not be a bear. Yeah, it's a real survivalist instinct coming on her. I hadn't thought of that. I honestly I am neither. Yeah, she we don't know where she's coming from there there. If it does feel kind of very rooted in its time in I will like I wish I had grown up with this movie, and I wish that I had more examples of especially princess movies, because they're so prevalent um and so heavily marketed at young girls, to like see if these movies are going to continue young girl who has agency, who has very clear desires and what she wants to do, and is very capable and is willing to define in order to do that. I just think that at some point in the movie, for me, it kind of there is still a weird blaming element towards the women in this movie that don't apply to the men in the movie at all. So I guess like where I'm coming from from there is you have like these kind of stock characters and kind of besides, this is like another point, but the way that the characters are animated are kind of classically, like the male cartoons are look like cartoons, and the female cartoons look like hot women, like normative Western beauty hot women, And that is something that is like an issue and animation over and over and over where like you know, men aren't actual gigantic triangles like like every man and and and they're really cool. The character design on the male characters is so much more fun, like the Baby's heads are gigantic, like it's there, it's ridiculous. But then you see like Merrit and her mother are very clearly Western beauty standard women because merchandizing or whatever. But yes, she has comedy, she has serious comedy boops, and they're out the whole time. And there's that oh god, the one that I was like, are you fucking kidding me? The one where the baby bear swan dives into her cleavage. I'm just like, because I've had enough there. But the way the way that the patriarchal structure is represented here, from the way I was viewing it was that all the men in this movie are so goofy that it makes it. It suggests that the patriarchy doesn't exist and that all men just need to be it has to be suggested to them like, oh, have you ever thought that maybe a teenager shouldn't marry someone? And there and in the movie there's literally that whole scene where all the guys are like, oh doroy, yeah, we should totally okay, we're gonna go now, like it's like and that just that lets the concept of patriarchy off the like totally off the hook to by suggesting that those standards aren't in place very much on purpose, and then all of the kind of like criticism is placed on her mom, who is the one who is doing the kind of the the I mean she, I think she, especially at the beginning, is framed very kind of shrew stereotype of like you have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this, And it's hard to understand where that character is coming from because it doesn't seem like the men around her are enforcing that norm right, it's basically only the mother who is And then the dad's like, yeah, girls can do archery, fucking well, I'm cool, Billy Connolly and I'm nice Billy. Well, Billy Connolly does have a thing in his contract that he'll only play cool day. But they're just that way of just like we're supposed to be angry at and we just don't really have much context for why is mother character behaving like this, and it's made to seem like it's more of a personal flaw of hers rather than a flaw of like the society they're living in. So that like that kind of kept coming up for me as we were as we were going through it. But that's it I mean it's like, I wouldn't have that wouldn't have hit with me as hard when I was a kid. That's because is kind of the way that we're watching it now. Yeah, that criticism is is totally valid, but um, I mean, I think there's a lot that this movie does really well, especially considering the intended audience. And I too, I wish I had seen it like grown up with this rather than you know, the very damaging movies that we've covered on the podcast already, like you know, snow White, Little Mermaid, Aladdin, stuff like that. Because if you do compare Brave to earlier Disney princess movies and they're referenced a lot in this movie, like by a lot of different scenes, you're like, oh, that's kind of from there, you know, right, because like in a lot of these other ones, just to name a few, snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping be Beuty, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Pocahon's a Laddin, the mom is absent in those movies, and the princess's whole story arc is about ending up with a man. Brave still about a princess, but this is I think the first Disney Princess movie where the princess does not have a romantic interest, which helps with it being like not technically Disney, right, but this is also I mean, like seventeen years into Pixar and this is their first female whet. Yeah, I have a whole spiel about that. But so not only does she not have a romantic interest, she explicitly states that that's something that she's not interested in at all, or at least like in this juncture in her life. So that's a huge But also I mean, like girls were getting married off at age nine ish during this time, so it's actually very progressive. So like, yeah, her not having a romantic interest and not having an interest in getting married is becomes a huge plot point. And then her mom is not only alive in this movie, but the story is largely about Meredith's relationship with her mom. I would even argue that it's and I don't even know if this is like the best writing choice, but the story gradually becomes more and more about Mereda's mom, to the point where Merrid's mom is the one to make all of the climactic decisions and moves, where like Mereda is about to be like, you know what, I'm gonna get married and then bear charades. So Mereda's mom is is taking the reins in that scene and then in the big bear fight with the other bear. How many chimes are you say? Bear? Uh? That Like Meredith's mom is is in charge of of that scene as well. So it's like it I feel like the main arc in this story kind of belongs to her mother, because we go from Merida not wanting to get married to Merida not wanting to get married. Like she she is a pretty consistent character where married's mom has this whole ideological shift. Or does she because she's a bear? Yeah, yeah, there's that to ponder. Yeah, but it is interesting, like they're like the mom kind of starts off as the closest thing we have to a villain besides the other bear. She has kind of this cool redemptive arc that I liked. Yeah, that's true. A few other like key differences between Brave and other earlier Disney movies is, for example, like when Meredath is locked in a tower at the end of the movie, which her dad does to keep her safe from the various bears, she like tries really hard to escape and then like manages to do so, whereas like and other manipulates her bear brothers, because in other like princess narratives, the princess generally passively waits sitting by, waiting to be rescued by like, you know, Prince Charming kind of or Shrek Um or Shrek right in some of Shrek, never forget Shrek Um. And then when Meredith does need to be rescued from more do at the end, it's only after she's put up a good fight herself and it's her mom who rescues her. Not not an right, right, I do that. I do wish that Meredith had fought more at the at the end. I mean, she's she's like she'd she launches some arrows. I just sword. I think that that's like a personal preference thing. I was just like, whoever makes like the killing blow, it's their movie and mom and it's Beare Mom, And I think that it is arguably kind of Beare Mom's movie. She has the biggest she I think everyone is brave at the end of the day, Thank you so much. We're also true. Here's my spiel about Brave being the first Pixar movie with a female lead. I have a lot to say this about this as well. Okay, do you want to go first? Um? Sure? Uh? So this was so, as we were started referencing earlier, this is the first Pixar movie to ever have a female lead. Uh and this is seventeen years after Toy Story took a long fucking time. Not coincidentally, is also the first Pixar movie to have a female director. Brenda Chapman, who I think kind of has this really interesting place in animation history because she is like one of the She was the first woman to ever direct a major studio animated film. She directed The Princes of Egypt. Anyone remember that classic probably doesn't hold up well, but I saw it in the church summer camp. They're just like, how do we get you to be quiet for an hour? So she she had directed The Prince of Egypt. And there's still to date from what I could find, or there's under ten, arguably under five women who have directed major animation studio projects literally ever. Um, Brenda Chapman ended up co directing, which we'll get into this movie. And then there was also uh where what's her name? Jennifer Yo directed and co directed Kung fu Panda's two and three. Um, and then there was also a female co director of Frozen, but there's still never been a movie only directed by a woman in animation. And I don't know if you've been alive for the past two years, but Pixar has a spectacularly bad record with how they treat women. Yeah. So, so the deal with Brenda is she had been working in animation at Disney or uh DreamWorks for Disney adjacent since the late eighties. She started working with them on The Little Mermaid doing like in between drawings and stuff like that. She like put in her time, right and uh then for for Brave, this was going to be her big opportunity to direct, and she had co written the script and she conceived of the story based on her own relationship with her daughter, right, and so it's like great, okay Brenda, and who fux it up? But you know who already John Mothers fucking Lasseter ruining everything since apparently toy story like he is this piece of ship. Okay, So we haven't heard from Brenda Chapman in a in a bit, but what we do know is that she worked on this project for years and years. It was her baby, and it was the payoff for all of this work she had done for all these years, and then she was replaced with eighteen months left, and for a movie this big that is pretty late in the game. She was replaced by a man because of her disagreements creatively with John Lasseter. So in the end she only gets co directing credit for the thing. That is very clear she did the bulk of the work on and she leaves Pixar the second this movie comes out. She's sucking out of here. And she said publicly at the time, she's like, I will not be coming back like she is. She really like it's and in twelve that's not a small thing. This is extremely pre me too, and extremely like when John Lasseter was still kind of this like golden god in the animation industry. But she was just like, I'm not going to work with him. He's a piece of ship. And coming from the only female director he's ever worked with, that's not nothing. So shout out Brenda Chapman. She's a she. She she fucking and the movie still turned out incredible in spite of all that like behind the scenes insanity, and she has said that she feels her like original vision was generally maintained, and she's still very proud of it. Um I have a few quotes from her from various pieces. She penned a piece in The New York Times in twelve entitled stand up for Yourself and mentor others uh, and she says about Brave, this was a story that I created, which came from a very personal play as a woman and a mother. To have it taken away and given to someone else and a man at that was truly distressing on so many levels. Then, in an interview with Polygon in she says, I'm very very proud of Brave. Much of my work that they had initially tried to take out once I left, they ended up putting much of it back in because there was really nothing wrong with the movie and there was no reason creatively to take me off the film. When asked what they tried to change about Brave, she said they tried to make it more about the father daughter story opposed to the mother daughter story. It was interesting, and it didn't work. And then, going back to her New York Times piece, she writes, sometimes women expressed an idea and are shot down, only to have a man expressed essentially the same idea and have it broadly embraced. Until there is a sufficient number of women executives and high places, this will continue to happen. Yes, So basically, yeah, I mean, from what I can tell, John Lasseter wanted to ruin the story. Brenda Chapman was like, no, don't do that, and then John later because of that, and then realized that the changes they were trying to make didn't work, and then they just ended up making the movie that Chapman originally envisioned, but now without her right, which is something that happens all the time. I mean, if you're a big little lies head like myself on the on the second season, a very similar thing happened this past year where uh female director even the reins for the entire season, and then in the last three months of editing, her work was taken from her and completely re edited and redone and then credited to a man. So it is prevalent issue everywhere. I'm I'm really glad that Brenda Chapman is like spoken to this, especially in animation, which is so incredibly male dominated UM and and also, I mean it is an extremely extremely white industry, and so the fact that she you know, she spoke up and like defended her. Like that's not an easy thing to do, so drama behind the scenes. You love to see a feminist icon Brenda. Good for her. I really admire that. I also enjoyed The Prince of Egypt, so long time fan. Every Yeah, Vacation, Bible School Baby. More about just this movie being the first Pixar film with a female lead. Yes, that is true, but it's also the one that most closely resembles a typical animated Disney princess movie because the other pis are movies about the boys, get to be about toys, bugs, monsters, cars, fish, robots, et cetera. Uh. But the good news is after Brave, there were more female protagonists in Pixar movies were inside Out. We spend the time inside a woman's brain, a confusing place that none of us understand. Oh it's ust but finding Dory, I mean yeah, um, but all the same, like this, you know, is the first one with a female lead. It's still is like a fairy tale about a princess. And while I would say, especially by standards, it is a feminist text, uh, it is still showcasing a very specific type of like female archetype, which is a rich white, young princess girl, yeah, who can go to plot Witch's house and be like I have gold, Like they're just like relatable. Um uh yeah. No. I also, I mean think that that is kind of another indication of how male dominated Pixar and that entire industry is, but especially Pixar, because there are so many demonstrable examples of women's opinions just being absolutely shut down at any opportunity of it's not. It's like kind of disappointing. Even though I like Brave and I'm glad it exists, it's disappointing that the only female led story they were willing to take a chance on was something that was a clear clearly demist like a princess movie. Like there's really not even though there are like inversions and like really really smart ones done by I'm assuming the female writers. Um, they're still not taking a real gamble by doing this, I don't think. I mean, I think it was a gamble by their standards, but making another princess movie is not a huge risk. And I was curious about is this story rooted in any sort of like Scottish lore, folklore and Rachel anne Um as our resident expert, is there is that the case. I'm not from medieval Scotland, but but you don't know what everything about Scotland has ever happened. I don't. I don't think so. I think the will of the wisps, like a whisp is as a thing, and like the stones are a thing. I've been to the like Scottish stonehenge, yes, thing, well, this one that I was at was in the Hebrides. But there's like there's more than one, like there's more than one stonehenge. They're just not all called stonehenge like stones, stones and a big circle are a thing. Sure, no one knows why. Maybe that's where they had the bear fights back there, like we've not we've not quite figured out why they're there and ask for like turning into bear. No, I've not that not, that's not part of Scottish lore. Maybe me once a month, but like no, like I've not, I have no. I'm still I'm just like, what is going on with the bear? I just the bear? Try. I honestly, if this movie had played out the way I thought it was going to, which is a movie, I think I would have liked better would have it would have been like Mereda going off and you know, like leaving the kingdom that she is from, you know, and and going out finding her own way making coming back with the lessons she's learned. I mean, basically invert the hero story that we've seen with male characters a billion times and seeing it with this really cool, empowered, capable female character. And then we kind of get caught in the weeds of this whole bear situation and she doesn't get much further than two miles from home. Yeah, I feel like there's not really a lesson for her learn. Yeah, she doesn't want to get mad, and then she does, which which is cool. I mean, like in itself, that's a subversion, but I do think that like they're and I don't even I'm like, is this a feminist critique or is this just like weird writing of just not much about her changes and what does change about her kind of made me feel weird of by the end, like the the action that Merida takes at the climax of the movie to unbear her mom is that she apologizes for her firmly held values, and that was just like, what are we supposed to be taking away from that. Like this the like the first twenty minutes of this movie, which I've loved, and you know, when she's like doing the archery, she rips her dress, she's like, funck this, and you know, like that is all so incredible. But then it feels like she's apologizing for all of that having happened, being like, oh, I didn't respect patriarchal traditions and so and now my mom's a bearer. I'm so bad. Yeah, I agree that she kind of has. I mean, she should maybe apologized to her mom for turning her into a bear, but but she didn't. Yeah, the fact that she apologizes at last, Ursula clearly states what's going to happen. That's true, even makes her sign a contract and know is basically a scientist and a lawyer. Yeah, for sure. And then this plot which apparently only knows one spell, which is to turn people into bears. She's also Emma Thompson. She's also a Coachla, You're just like, who is this character now? Emma Thompson's the mom? Emma Sorry, sorry, so you're right. Who's Who's Julie Waters? Julie Walters? Yeah, Waters are walters mom and Mrs Bird from Paddington's. Yeah, then, let me just take a quick sidebar to note the Paddington's parallels, sure the obvious, both being bare heavy movies. Julie Walters play is the Witch, who is of course Mrs Bird in Paddington's. Emma Thompson, who voices Eleanor is from Paddington, England. And you know who else is from Paddington England? Whom Alfred Molina? What? Yes? You know that? Did they not lay him in the movie? Why didn't he get asked? I don't know. I bet he was busy and he didn't want to. Oh my god, wow, wow, he's from Well, if we're talking about who Alfred Millina could play in this movie, and I know that we're aiming for a Scottish heavy cast, but we do have Emma Thompson right, and she's she's English, right, mama is Scottish, her mom is okay if we're but but you Rachel and also told us before we came out on stage that so Kelly McDonald plays Merida, and she I think is best known from train Spotting as famously only woman in Trainspotting. But she voices Mereda, but apparently it was originally supposed to be Reese Witherspoon. Yeah wait, I'm gonna pull up the quote because it is very Oh stop trying to make Reese Witherspoon happen. She's already famous. I love I loved her at role. That's the other thing where we were just like, have we ever heard Reese Weatherspoon be anyway like play in Non America? I don't think so. So the whole Reese situation. Uh so they hired her. She was attached to the project forever. No one was like, wait a second, Reese got a coach. She's like, I'm Scottish now, this is this is the new Reese legally Scottish. And and then and then I guess she quietly left the project because she turns out she isn't Scottish. And then she like said in an interview later, she was like, yeah, my Scottish was like dogshit, it was really mad. Yeah, so you know, I didn't didn't miss reason this one lover though, for sure. But when became back to what you were saying about Merida's arc and where she goes from the beginning toward the end, that that also hit for me as well. Yeah, I mean like if her mom didn't turn any a bear, nothing would happen, right right, Like nothing, nothing would have happened. It would have just had a bed round and then she might have got married like she probably would because I think her mom wouldn't be so like do the bear she would be as she wouldn't be like as invested in changing it if she wasn't a bear. Right. I really like this this line of thought of like the mom is just trying to get out of this situation. Yeah, not nothing. I do really feel like much would have changed. And then, like I loved the film so much, and then right up to the end, I was just like absolutely winded because man, it does like this is all my fault. I've been so selfish, like she says, I am selfish. I'm selfish, Like you know, I'll do anything to take it back, like I've changed. I'm so sorry, Like this is all me, and her mom's just there, she can't speak because she's a bear, right right, and man, it just like pulled in her heart and her mom's just like move I'm bear. That was a good I was devastated as I wanted them. Mom should be apologizing, but as you said, she's a bear. It is I mean, the fact that Meredith has to go so far to apologize for the character that we all fell in love with at the beginning of the movie just feels off, Yeah, yeah, I don't know. And then and then and kind of like getting back to what we were talking about at the beginning, the dad's lack of accountability and this whole situation. Right, first of all, he doesn't notice his family has vanished. But also that like in this whole thing, anytime that the that Queen Eleanor is saying like this is what you need to do, this is your expectation of society, the father always kind of gets off scott free again, well that's what uh brave of you. But he kind of he kind of just like, is you know a big triangle and he's like, I don't know. And then and Meredith like, my triangle Dad is so awesome, and you're like your triangle Dad is complicit and a lot of Shita wake up. I have I have some lists of things, has various lists like so I would say, unlike a lot of its predecessors in terms of other like fairy Tale Disney Princess movies. This one does a lot more to comment on things like femininity, masculine city, and gender roles, because there are various scenes in which Queen Eleanor says, like what a princess does and does not do. A princess does not chortle, she does not stuff her gob uh, she does not raise her eat them, she does not raise her voice. She does not have weapons. She is compassionate, patient, cautious, clean, and above all, a princess strives for perfection. I like this scene the way Emma Thompson does it, but I prefer it the way Julie Andrews did it in The Princess Diaries. Yes, but it's she's basically saying like, you're a woman, and women can only do certain things and they should not do other things. Meanwhile, whole feminist icon sort of, her dad is like, as a loser, I agree, but at first we're like, oh, he's actually really cool because he's like, here, have a bow, learned to shoot. But I won't stand up you in public or care that you're missing for forty eight hours. Bad. So the movie does also comment on masculinity. I think to some degree where the groups of men that you see are constantly trying to flaunt their masculinity. They're always trying to one up each other. They're always breaking out into huge violent fights, and this is always made to look very like stilly and and foolish, um and toxic. By the movie. There's that especially one suitor who's like this toxic bro fuck boy. He's oh yeah, He's like he definitely like does like pick up artist stuff. Yeah. And then and then he like throws a tantrum whenever he like doesn't get the bull's eye. And then like Meredith sarcastically, he's like, oh that's attractive. Um. Just the legend of the prince who wanted the strength of ten men. He wanted all this power and then bad things happen to him because he turned into a demon bear. Uh. And then Meredith's dad is like on meredith side for a lot of the movie, but I'm anti dad. If you can't stand up for your daughter in public as a man with power, you, I don't funk with you. Fergus and do it. And he has such a strong bear vendetta that he almost kills his wife. Okay, but to be fair, it's hard to be fair. It would be really hard to look at it bear and be like, this is my wife. I was true. I was kind of empathizing with him on that where it's married is like no, this bears mom and he's like no, but but if he just listened to Meredith. But he doesn't like to listen to women, is the thing, right, right? That's fair and women when they say other women are bears and important and don't lock them up in a tower, definitely don't do that. He wasn't a good He's not a good character. He's not He's not good. And then he shoves her out of the way the in the bear fight at the end, she also she also like she she fights him. Yeah, I'm glad that she does that. And that was I mean, that was like a really that was like when the Meritive, it felt like the Meratith from the beginning of the movie came back for a second. You're like, oh, cool, Like when she's escaping the tower and when she like fights like sword fights with her dad, Like, yeah, this is the Meriti I wanted to see the whole time, not this whole barre negotiation thing. Sure to sum up there is some commentary on like you know, like gender roles, masculinity, femininity, but it's still it's not perfect in this movie. Um, I want to talk about sate. Oh right, Brave, because most movies that have fate as like a theme or a big story element have male protagonists. Um, there's a lot of talk about destiny and Star Wars, there's a lot of talk about fate in The Matrix Terminator much any like Chosen One narrative, Jesus of Jesus. Sorry, I just wanted to participate. These all have like fate as a theme or through line, and they're almost always male driven stories. If fate or destiny is something that gets talked about in a female driven movie, it's almost always something about romance, and it's like something to the effect of this is the man I'm destined to be with, or it is like a tragic fate where there's all those like faded to die to advance the male protagonists fated to die. So KIANU Reeves can begin the movie like that that kind of fate. Sure. Yeah, However, Brave has very strong fate themes and it has nothing to do with romance. It's all about like carving out your own path, being free to choose your own journey in life, and not being bound you are. Oh wow, someone said bear ahead to and like not being bound to rigid patriarchal traditions. So I still wish we had gotten to see more of a journey for her, though, I still I still think we see more of married as Mom's journey than hers. She doesn't get very far from home. I mean, yeah, but I think it's nice to just have a like, a headstrong young woman whose like values we know. She she never wavers for them until she's apologizing for no reason at the end and the very end, which I yeah, that is I think a mistake narratively, which is probably something John lasted or decided to do because it doesn't make any sense. But this movie doesn't make any sense. We've mentioned the bear also, I wanted to mention really quick there there are four credited writers on the screenplay, and there is gender parody here. Uh so, Brendan Chapman is a credited writer, as well as Irene Metchi. I think it's how you say her name, who's like a Disney standby. She had writing credits on The Lion King Hunchback Hercules Fantasia two thousand and she wrote the TV version of Annie that I liked from so it did that. That is also I mean for any Disney, Pixar or any movie period um having some parody in the in the writing was was nice to see. For sure. I want to talk about Merida as a possible queer icon question mark, question mark, question mark. So a lot has been written about whether or not Mereda might be coded queer, either a lesbian or maybe asexual because of her lack of interest in getting married to a man. Um She's yeah, I'm also not interested in getting married to a man, and I'm straight. It's just good instincts and a lot for any one. True and different members of the queer community have embraced the idea that Merida might be queer. Others have speculated that she could just as easily be a straight person but doesn't want to be, you know, locked into a marriage when she's a teenager, as we pointed, up, straight person with a good head on her shot a good head of so much hair there. Then I think about like the rendering times on her head. You're like, I'm sure people were like at the brink of their own sanity over like this gorgeous cartoons head. They had to develop a like animation program specifically just for her hair, I mean worth it. Yeah, it's great anyway. The movie doesn't spell out her sexual identity or preference one way or the other. But I would say for those who have embraced Meredith as being a queer character, it's nice that for once, it's not a villain. Um, this time it's the hero. Because historically we've talked about this a lot, the queer, coded, uh or ambiguous characters, and Disney movies have pretty much all been villains. So um, I think that's a nice change of pace and I just love, I mean that element of this genre of movies. For all the issues that come with the Princess movie, I feel like there is a very like active discussion and open to interpretation element that different communities have made for themselves. I was really when we were doing the Little Mermaid episode. I was like pleasantly surprised and really interested in the number of different reads that can be done on a movie like this that is designed to be pretty broad and for you to plug yourself into the main character and to see um, the different meanings that people get out of it, and it's just it's cool. And I think Meredith is like that kind of character that is just kind of like open and I appreciate that. I mean, it's truly the absolute least they can do, but by not doing a hard specification like that, that was really cool. For sure, possible quer icon. We don't know, true, She'll let us know. I think my last point was about archery. Okay, go off. We had a similar discussion on our Hunger games. With Brave, you get to see a woman using real weapons for once. It's not a frying pan or other kitchen of pines, although you do see Mahdi grab a frying pan to try to hit the three Little Bear brothers with at one point, again, she really reminded me of a character, a similar character from The Little Mermaid. It's like the woman who worked at Eric's castle is the same character. They're they're pulling a lot. Is it lazy? Is it homage? Sometimes it's both. Yesage is just kind of another word from like like so here different enough at though we see Mereda defending herself against more Do by firing arrows at him, she's often wielding a sword and according to a study by the Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media about archery, fellow mens, Yes, um, this study was about archery, which is the fastest growing sport in the US. Apparently seven and ten girls said that Catnets from The Hunger Games and Meredith from Brave influenced their decision to take up archery. Hell yeah, that's incredible. So it just goes to show that when young people see someone like them on screen represented doing something, especially when it's a thing that they usually don't see themselves doing, like a girl doing archery and also being the very best at it, which the movie goes out of its way again again where she's, as you said, creaming them, creaming she's very very good like and that that is cool to see, Like she's not just their peer, she's like she's creaming them the right. So, yes, whenever girls are shown doing things that like maybe aren't traditionally feminine things to do, what empowers the audience to say, Hey, I could maybe do archery too, It just feels more possible. Yes, absolutely. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the film? What if I was like, I'd like to talk more about the bear on No, No, that's all. That's all, uh, that I really had for this. I think I mean to start wrapping up. And I think that this movie has like a very unique place in time, um where this is definitely a step forward, and it was like Pixar's first attempt to show a female character. And I think that the ways that they succeeded and failed are kind of telling, especially behind the scenes, and it is kind of weirdly encouraging that I was frustrated at so many places in this movie, because that just means that we have better options now. Um, So it was like weird the for the for the parts, I was frustrated that I was at least grateful to think, well, there are movies that exist, now would it exist off the work that Brave did? That kind of resolves some of the issues. It's a it's a good stepping stone hinge, Scott stonehinge, someone did boo Yeah and yeah. I mean, I feel like we've talked a lot about the bear, but I feel like we've cannot overlooked Angus a little bit. Oh the horse, which is a very strange name for the horse unless they're going to like eat them later, Yeah, this is a thing. Yeah, yeah, just to show out to Angus. We never really we were like, he doesn't really do much in it. But then that's also the thing. When she has running off to save her mom, she's not even really you know, got Angus there to be like, Oh, come on, she's just sitting to buy animals, just doing it on her own. Sure, no one can talk to her. She's brave, she's grave. Yeah, how she's another Disney princess with seemingly only animal friends. Yeah, why doesn't she have a like a human friend. We don't see any of the people there. There's a major peasant erasure. We don't see anyone who's valued at less than six figures in this movie, except for a plot which we don't maybe is like a chamber maid or something like a line. Yeah, she plays subjectified, brutal like Marti, plays into like the hysterical woman's stereotype because she's always a true woman. Yeah, and are a few of our only I mean iconic brave of them to include these troups. I I blame anything that isn't like good or that's kind of trumpy about this movie on like John Lasseter, Sure, because I feel like Brenda Chapman would have, you know, not done that stuff. We firmly stand Brenda. Yes, we stand Brenda Chapman. Um. I think we have time for a few questions or comments from the audience. Oh, yes, how many nipples to be? The question? Was the question? I don't know off the top of my head, so I'm going to look at it. So I learned this recently that the number of nipples and animal has is dependent upon the number of offspring they generally have per litter. So bears I think generally have like maybe two or three cubs that time. I'm guessing. But but you double double it, so twice as many nipples? Is it? Do they have six? Wow? I got it on the first try. The way this will be edited. Um, okay, so six nipples is Thank you so much for your question. Any others? Yeah? Do you think the cake that was given was a bear nipple? Oh? The witch's cake? I think that is what a bear nipple looks like. Yes, it's like kind of flat and like squarish and delicious, and if you eat a bear nipple it'll turn you into a bear. Yeah, that is kind of Um with more do like with the other Bear story. It felt like that didn't need to be there at all, but it could have been really interestingly looked at, Like you end up with Mother Bear killing Patre So do you think there could have been any way to make that actually part of the story rather than just this kind of like oh, there's I mean there, I could have done with either a lot more or a lot less bears. It doesn't The amount of Bear is confusing to me. This was like there, I didn't I saw. I mean, it's like I watched the trailer. I didn't show up ready for Bear. There there because there's also there's another Disney movie called Brother Bear where a human turned to bear, and that movie I hope we never cover because it's a fucking disaster there. I've never seen it, but I have. That's it's a it's a it's a Phil Collins joint, which I do. I mean in England we stand Phil Collins, do it? We don't we fuck them? There? I know I know things. Yeah, no that I do think that like the patriarchy Bear added at the end there, and then you get this like I don't know, there's like the the fact that there were four writers on this movie is very obvious because everyone wasn't. I feel like maybe Patriarchy Bear was added after Brenda Chapman left because you there was even this moment where it's kind of it reminds me of that moment. There's a scene in the Rock his wife, his wife where there's like a soldier who dies. We don't know who this soldier is. He's played off with like twenty seconds like a one gun. So they're like it's some guy and they're like, We're like, who is this guy? I felt the same way about Patriarchy Bear when his ghost appears above the Bear at the end and Meredith is like, I'm so glad you're at peace. We're like, who are I don't care about your soul? Like, who are you? He was a bad guy? He was, I again, but she's like, good for you? What the second there? I don't even know if there needed to be one Bear storyline, much less too u Shian in the back there so to to repeat it into the mic. The question The comment is basically because her dad permitted Mereda to go off and like do outdoorsy journeys and stuff like that, she has the wherewithal in the knowledge to know that like the berries that bear Mom tried to collect and eat for breakfast, because bare moms be making breakfast. Uh, they would have died because Mereda wouldn't have known that they were poisonous and that there were worms in the water. I can see. Yeah, point for fergus on that one not all bad. Yeah, I I agree this movie could have been called Mother Bear. The comment to summarize is, uh that when women are given weapons, they're generally long range weapons as opposed to hand the hand combat, which is something that you kind of see, um, I mean in these two characters alone, which is it makes me glad that Mereda at least gets to do some sword wielding at certain points, but it does seem like it is still kind of an unnecessary limitation and in some ways kind of indicates there's still some cultural weirdness around seeing women into combat hand to hand. Common women are allowed to be snipers but not have swords and knives. I would say, an exception to that, Yeah, I think that's generally very true. An exception is one of three female characters in Lord of the Rings, a Owen that's everyone's name, that like, why why wasn't you and McGregor cast in this Scottish movie, right, what did he do? Maybe? Brenda Chapman was like, no, and I won't talk about it, but a Owen we alds a sword. But yeah, I would say in general that's totally true where women are only allowed to use long range. That's one thing Game of Thrones gets right sometimes is that you get to see women really brutally murdering people. Gotta love it for that. A couple more questions talk for it's just factor married as a queer icon. Unfortunately, the rather terrible ABC show Once upon a Time addressed that they tried to force a romance between her and Macintosh. No, like, there was like a whole arc where because she she didn't defend her father, who you know, big sword building triangle because she didn't defend him and he died on her watch. She was more the being queen. There was like a whole thing she'd to go and prove herself again and Bulan was involved. It's way, I had no idea all these characters were in that show. Yeah because it Yeah, it Disney owns ABC, so they can just do fucking weird, problematic fan fiction on their stupid show all the time. It's a mess. I didn't know there was ameretat that sucks them to the ground. McIntosh is the brave, hearty one. I love when people funk up their own good work. That's and I'm back. Okay, so they did have some queer relationships in there. Okay, it was oh good as long as it was bad and set things back. Oh god, that's brutal. Thank you for sharing that very upsetting infoun Yeah, I think one more yes on the topic of Mere does more ark. I'd like to add a few more elements and here your reactions to them. It seems pretty clear that the reason right how the they need to resolve their bare problem is to solve solve their issue with pride, which shows Marrider's actions has been overly prideful. And then when they're in the ruins of the odd Castle and they see that the man who became bad Bear was trying to be selfish and not be part of the community, the family, and that was wrong, and this leads Merrider to then try to explain to all the lords that she's been bad, and she apologizes, as you've talked about. So the only thing that isn't embracing the patriarchal system in that moment is that she gets to choose who she wants to fuck, and that that's basically it other than that thing. And even now we've kind of learned that she only chooses amongst the free men who she had a choice of anyway, Yeah, that it still seems like she basically her faults. Her mol arc is to learn to embraset the patriarchy with slight comma that I get to choose the dick, right, and so that she doesn't become a bear. Of course, Yeah it is, I I do. Yeah, I I have some issues with with Mereda's arc. And I also feel like when they when they do that scene and they try to set up like prideful, we'll make you into a bad bear, like that's felt like very false equivalency, because all she's trying to do is have some ownership of what happens to her. She's not trying to inflict harm or control over literally anyone but herself. And I feel like comparing her to this prince that no one gives a funk about was kind of like, Yeah, that was just another way that I feel like the plot subtly would punish Mereda and her mother and kind of invent this thing that Merida has to feel bad about when the only person she's trying to extraly has control over is herself. She's not trying to force anything on anyone. So fuck that prince. What was that? That was too many bears? Yeah? One more question in the corner there, Yes, um So the question was how the movie represents curly hair and like the element of a wild nature and nonconformity, and how that's often tied with curly hair. So I had like made into hair and a past life, and like I had like very wild, ginger curly hair, and after a brave I grew it so it got even longer and even wilder. Um I don't know if that if I was influenced by that, but um, I like proper waiting for it. So I had like ginger cuddles down to like here. It's hard to imagin hi brave, but yeah, I guess that is a good point. She is the only one to have has there been other princesses that I've had, Like, I don't think so, And most of the other princesses have been white woman women and curly hair is not exclusively, but um, women of color and curly hair is there are connections there, um, So I think, yeah, I think it's just a matter of like all the princesses in like fairytale history being white women who like various degrees of like adventurous. Uh. I don't know totally how to answer your question, but I think that it's definitely something that like, I'll be on the lookout more for. Yeah, I know that there's more written on this, and I know just with the amount of knowledge I have, I'm not qualified to really speak to it. I did kind of view that as an attempt at some sort of subversion of the princess archetype that they seem to try to be commenting on a lot of like this, you know, like where there's I can't really think of a princess besides Ariel whose hair isn't somehow like styled or controlled in some way, and so it seemed like a character designed to indicate something about her. But I definitely see what you're saying, and then that's something that yeah, I would just need to do more research on, thank you sharing that up to Yeah, for sure, So does this movie pass the Bechdel test. Yes, and it passes the bark that was like a bad pun on the level that I usually do. I know I was. I was just like, wow, I didn't know I had to it anymore, Jamie, honestly brieve of you. Yes, it passes between um Merida and eleanor it passes between Merida and the witch, who isn't technically named. But I think that she's plot plot, which I think she is an important enough character because like the name Caveat is like do we see this woman for five seconds or less? Uh? And but yeah, I think I think I would count. It doesn't pass as much as much as you would because her almost a bear for the most of the time. I can't talk, but she is. But they are communicating, and I think that there is like I mean, bytel cast, bytel test, oh my god, bytel tests is you know, not a precise metric because it wasn't designed to be that. I think that, you know, like, even though a lot of the communication between Merit and her mom are nonverbal, it's still I would absolutely the charades bear scene counts. That's communications between female identifying characters. Yes, absolutely, bears be damned bears. They speak their own language. What would we rate this on the nipple scale zero to five nipples based on its representation of women. Um, I would give this I think a four three and a half four. I think for the time especially, it was like it was paving the way for other like feminist texts targeted at young girls to be made. I think there's a lot of stuff in Handles really well. It subverts a lot of tropes and but as we've talked about, there's some missteps in again they're probably all John Lasseter's fault. Um, but yeah, I don't like that, like the burden becomes is placed on Merida to have to apologize for just being like a feminist icon. That's her for seeming like patriarchy with her idea somehow. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of weird things like that. But um, I'll split the difference and I'll do a three point seven five. Now everyone doesn't imagine slicing a nipple like that. Uh yeah, And I will give one to bear Mom, to to Merida, and I'll give my three quarters nipple to Paddington, who should be in this movie. If you if you're going to have two Bears, Why not a third bear? Rule of threes Paddington, I'm gonna do. I was, I swear to I was thinking the exact same number that three point seven five nipples. Yeah, I mean because meeting this movie in context and on its terms for twelve, this was kind of the only movie of its kind that was coming out, so for all the reasons that the way that it deals with the idea of patriarchy was kind of frustrating, But it does seem like there have been movies since that have learned from the lessons that this movie sort of taught us. And the fact that this is like one of the first female held fun the other guy who worked on it for a year and a half, don't care, is Brenda Chapman's movie, Like that is a really cool step in the right direction, And unfortunately, since she left Pixar, she hasn't been able to direct another movie. So I really, really, really hope that those opportunities continue to be available. So so I'll do the only three point seven five, give two to Merita, one to one of the brothers, whichever it was your okay if uh, and then I'll give the last three quarters to bear Mom and how you Um, I'm not as good at maths, so I'm going to go a solid three. I just think that it was going, you know, relatively well until she decides she doesn't want to get married, and then she poisons her mom. She's like, I know what to do. I'll poison my mom. And then her mom turns into a bear and she's like, maybe that was too much. Maybe we could have slept on it and spoke about things in the morning and she would have came around, but she didn't. She's so she's a bear. And then and then it's her fault. It's essentially it's it's her fault that her mom's a bear, and we forget that. She's like not like wanting to get married. Now, she just has to change her mom back by apologizing profusely for something that she didn't mean to do, and then she's like borderline thinking about getting married. At the end. Yeah, it's like, so she also made a really irresponsible purchase by buying all of those wood carvings. What was that for income? Was that the plot just being like, get ready, there's a lot more bears with this Carol. Yeah, so three nipples day. Yeah, I think that's the show, damn shows. So thank you so much again to our guests Rachel and Rachel and what would you like to plug? Where can people find you online? So I'm on Instagram Rachel and dot comedians like all these are a c h e L A double n E. And I'm on Twitter tweet Rachel A and r A c h E L A double n e. Um. You can also follow my comedy night which I run, which is in Glasgow, but you know, if you're around, it's Ambish the salon. So we have a sketch grip called Ambush and we run a live home tonight and it has stand up and sketch and all sorts of alternative feminist comedy that wouldn't make you wins get it up for one more time giving up for yourselves. Well, thank you so much for coming. Yeah, we'll be hanging out. We're gonna be selling us some merch and taking pics. So come say hi on your way out by coming. And that was our brave episode. It was so much fun, our first international episode. Can you believe? Brave of us? Brave of us? So thank you again to our guest Rachel Anne Clark. She is wonderful, so funny, so amazing. Thank you to the Albany in London for hosting us, for listing us as the Women in Film Podcast, which we have as you know, by now officially rebranded US. Thank you to my beloved Isaac Taylor for recording for us under duress. Oh no, I'm kidding, okay, I was like what he volunteered and we paid him big. Thanks to Sassy for working the door checking people in Sassi as a champion. Thank you so much, and thank you to everyone who came and everyone who bought merch. We are eternally grateful and we hoped to be back in London soon and we have another live episode from London coming out in the near future, so look forward to that. Stay tuned. Bye,