The Power of a Story with Kindra Hall

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hart Hunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. We are going to be interviewing or I am interviewing Kinder Hall, who is the author of the brand new book Choose Your Stories, Change Your Life. Very exciting to talk with her about that. So yeah, storytelling, I mean there's different views of storytelling. I mean there's the positive one, which I think is what Kendra is getting at and how we can change the narratives we tell ourselves. But Sarah, you've noticed in life a lot of people try to make stories out of stuff that's not necessarily a story. Yes, I mean, I know you've remarked on a very tired trope that maybe you'll get into the story that we've heard a few times where we're like, but is it really as significant as you're building it up to yourself. I'll let you cover that part. But you know, sometimes when I hear somebody's story, it can actually change what I think about them in a positive way. So I was when I thought about stories. Actually, the first thing that came to my mind was how when we interview candidates for residency, sometimes they'll come with a really compelling story that does draw me in. So, for example, we'll have somebody share that the reason they wanted to go into pediatrics was because they had cancer as a child and how that, you know, affected them, and they're a survivor and everything, and you know, if you really zoom out like that doesn't necessarily make that person a better candidate than someone else who didn't happen to go through that, you know, tragic experience. But at the same time, it can definitely draw you in or maybe will make me think that that person has different perspectives that they may be able to bring to the role. Well, definitely, somebody who's been a patient extensively will have a different view of medicine than someone who has not so yeah, I'm sure that's very important, which you're not making up though having cancer as a kid, like that form of storytelling is totally legitimate. I'm talking more about the narratives where everyone likes the format, where you know, it's like a epiphany and then something changes, like everything has to change as a result of this epiphany. And the honest truth is that, like stuff doesn't have to change, and we don't have to take a lesson from everything, or if you know, we do, it can be a very very small lesson as opposed to a large, overarching one. I mean where I see this all the time and people want to know, like how did you come to the topic of time management? And you know, I'll give you an answer if I know that that's like what you want, like a story, but there is no good story, right, Like there's zero good story. I mean, it's not like I was, you know, in chaos and some rock bottom moments and then crawled up from the abyss like my life is just way not that interesting, you know. I'm like, well, you know, I was a reasonably organized student and a reasonably organized person and then you know, I thought about how I was spending my time and talked to out other people are spending their time. More so even than that, I wanted to write books, and I was casting about for topics that I could write about, that people would pay attention to, and that I was interested in. And so I don't know, it could have been baseball, but it isn't. It's time management. So here we go. Like I would have, I thought you were going to mention this story, like the story we always hear about, like my house was a mess, my project was overdue, and I laid down on the floor. My kids were screaming, and that's when I decided I had to quit my job. Like I feel like to me, that's like the I've heard that story like a lot of times, and it's like, well, you could have also decided I shouldn't have tried to cook an elaborate meal that night, or like I need babysitting help, but instead of like kids just stop screaming, Like that would be the one change I could see right there. Yeah, No, there's such this like working mother trope, and if anyone a lot of the sort of literature, it's like it starts with some dark movement of the soul right where you know you are, something's gone wrong. You've missed the softball game because of a late flight, and so we must join with the Greek chorus of the disillusion, chanting how no one can have it all right? And it's like, no, I mean, I've used this joke before here on this program, but I've missed a lot of softball games because I met somebody else's soccer game, like, and nobody looks at that situation and says, oh, you should get rid of the other kid, even though the result is exactly the same, like you're not at the game. I mean, it's just, you know, we are still uncomfortable with mothers working. But anyway, the type of story Kendra is talking about is more like when we tell ourselves these stories, right, and we should explore what these are because often they're subconscious. I mean, you sort of know they're there, but you don't realize how much power they have over your life. And when we talk about one in this interview, she had been about ready to turn down a really like a gig she really wanted, and it wasn't because of anything, you know, it was basically because she had one other trip that same week, and in her mind, you could be a good mother and go on one business trip a week, but two was just right out. Now, now where did that come? Like like like those are that ridiculous? Like, but it's so specific in her mind that it's like, Okay, well, one is a manageable level. One is something we can deal with. But if I've already committed to one, even if it's like the client I've been chasing after for a year, I shouldn't say no. I shouldn't say yes because I've already doing another trip that week. And everybody knows that you can't be a good mother and go on two trips in one week. It's like a false choice or false psychotomy. Yeah, yeah, So you know, we just want to make sure we see what those stories are because once she called them to lights, some of them are really ridiculous. I mean, some of them are very important, they give our lives meanings, certainly in narratives, Ken, but some are also ridiculous. Well, why don't we hear what has to say? Well, Sarah and I are very excited to welcome Kendra Hall to the program. Kendra is the author of the brand new book Choose Your Story, Change Your Life. So Kendra welcome to the program. Thank you so much for having me. Laura. I'm just I'm honored to be here with you. Oh good, well, I'm honored to be here with you as well. So why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, about your career and your family too. Yeah, I started my career. I first got an idea for my career, though it was a very young idea. When I was eleven. I told my first story. You know, I didn't drop out of fifth grade. I did keep going to school. But I told my first story when I was eleven and really saw it was to a room full of third graders, and in the first few sentences, I held them right there in the palm of my hand, and I knew in that moment at eleven, that there was something to this story thing, And so it was. It wasn't a career at that point, it was an interest. But as time went on, I started researching the power of story within organizations and then using stories and sales and marketing, and then I wrote my first book, which was all about outward storytelling and how we can use stories to influence in business and now, especially with the time that we're at right now, everything we've been through over the past couple of years, decided to take a really close look at our inner stories, the stories we're telling ourselves. And in terms of my family, I get a lot of it's really interesting to watch stories at work, even within a family. So I'm married, my husband is Michael. I have a son and a daughter. They're in elementary school, and we live in New York City. Oh and we have a puppy named Space Dog. Was Space Dog a pandemic puppy? Yeah? Yes, And you know what we held out to the very end, like well we didn't. I guess we thought it was the very end at the time, and so now and so yes, we will have Oh it's almost Yeah, we've had Space Dog a year now. Oh well, congratulations on Space Dog. Be next and you got and you guys stayed in New York City for the whole pandemic. Then we stayed. You know, the school shut down, and we I guess we had options, but there was definitely this sense of we are part of a really big story here, and I think we wanted to as long as we felt safe and and we did safe enough to stay. We wanted to witness that story from right where we were, So we stayed lots of I went through for some runs down the middle lane of Madison Avenue because there was no it was just so empty, just me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's I'm sure that was quite an experience. Yeah, I know, I've heard a lot of people who left, but it's interesting to hear about people who wound up wound up staying as well. And yeah, definitely part of a fascinating story. So your book talks all about how people you know, develop these stories and tell these stories that have just such profound power over our lives, and they're often not really examined, let alone you know, actively tried to change. And so I wonder if you could share with your listeners one that I found really fascinating. It's one of the early ones in your book about Mike, who is not your husband but your dad. Your dad Mike were surrounded by Michael's here. I'm married to a Michael by the way, Okay, yeah, yeah, we'll just use them interchangeably, because use the interchangeable. Yeah, but your father and the story he was telling himself about sort of what it meant to work. I wonder if you could tell our listeners about that. Yeah, it was, and it's interesting too. It was interesting to send the story to my father and say, Hi, this is the story I'm going to write about you, and then to see his story reflected through my eyes. But essentially, I mean, my dad is an incredibly charismatic, talented man. He's so good at networking, and he was really really good at his job. And this of course was years and years ago when I was growing up, and it was a grueling job. He was underappreciated, he had, you know, any any of those things that anyone working in a job for a long period of time, you have your ups and downs. And he would have those moments where he would think, this is it. I need to I need to find something else. I can do something else. I have the connections, I have the talent. I should do something else. And then there was this thing that made him stay. And when I say this, you think about like, oh, it must have been you know, something outside, But when you really look at it, it was this story that came from his father that a secure job is a good job and you should stay. Like if you have a good job, you stay with a good job. And so he stayed for over thirty years until one day they let him go just after and the time my entire life at that point, he'd been at this job and they just let him go. And and it really was when he looked back, it was the stories of of what a good job is. It's a safe job, and it's better to be safe than to step outside. And he he believed in that story. He lived that story until that story was taken away from him. And now he's investing in real estate, he's in a rock band, he just he just finished his own book I which, yeah, he's trying to steal my thunder, but that's fine, that's that's okay. But it was it was the story that kept him there. It had nothing to do with his abilities, It had nothing to do with what he was capable of. It was entirely the story. Yeah, and when you when you reflected that back to him, that you were seeing this, what was his reaction to that. I'm very curious, you know it was. I think it was all over the phone. Of course, because of the nature of the timing. I think he knew it wasn't wrong, and maybe there was a sense of I wish it were wrong. I wish, But that's that's also an important piece of this work and this book, and this message is he the book isn't change your story, change your life. He can't change that story. That story happened. And so now it's more what do you choose for the stories you tell yourself or even the story about that story? So I think you know, and I wanted to say I could it, and the way it's written when you read it in the book, you so this is kind of a spoiler alert. You don't know that it's my dad and I the first version of it, and more you know, you're an author. Was I ended with, But now my dad's amazing and everything is great and he's so awesome. But some of that had to come out because that wasn't the point of the story. The point of the story wasn't how great he was. The point of the story was the story that was holding him back. So yeah, yeah, that you have somebody who is very good at what they do, and they have this very powerful story that keeps them in a situation, maybe past the point where rationally it would have been good to go. Well, we're going to talk more about that in just a minute. I take a quick ad break and be back about more about how our stories can shape our lives. So I am here with Kendra Hall, who is the author of the brand new book Choose Your Story, Change Your Life. And Kendra was just telling us about her father's story that he lived with her so many years. That a good job is a secure job, and you don't let go of a good job, even if that's you know, maybe going to be who of you to do so, and it may not be up to you how long you get to keep that job in the long place. But you've obviously had many of the stories that you know. It's not just your father, You have your own stories too. One of the ones you tell in the book is about realizing that you had a very deep seated story that you were telling yourself when you got a last minute invitation could go do a workshop with one of your dream clients, like get on a plane on a Saturday. So describe what happened in that situation and how you realize that you had various stories about what it meant to work and to have a family as well. Yeah, I think that, And it's interesting because these self stories show up in so many different areas of our life. It is in business and career, it is in family and parenting, it's in our relationships and our health. So they can pop up all over the place. And this story was I got a call to go work for a dream client. Like dream they were on if I had a part of them, Yes, yes, exactly, and like if they if there was a vision, their name was on the vision board if I had one. And I got the call. And usually when you get a call to do a keynote speech, it's six months in advance, a year in advance. And my agent said, and they need you to get on a plane tomorrow. Now you would think, if you're following along with this, that maybe the limiting st that I had was about how can I pull it together? I'm not ready. How can I be ready to present for a dream my dream client overnight? But that wasn't the case. I actually was ready. I'd been studying them. I knew exactly. I knew that this was They say fortune favors the prepared, and I was so prepared. However, I didn't say yes right away. I said can I please have an hour? I mean agent thought I was crazy because it just it was such an obvious yes. But I came home. My Michael said, I said, you won't believe what happened. And I told him and he said, and you're sad about it because you could see this look of torture on my face. And I went into the bathroom. I sat on the bathroom floor and I cried, I'm not gonna sit on the bathroom floor and cry kind of person. It's just not me. But I was completely I was being suffocated by this other story, which is I'm failing my children because I have this passion for my work which takes me away from my kids. There was almost this you cannot be successful at both. You cannot be a successful mother and be a successful business woman, at least not in the business that I was in, and that story, And of course I had a whole lineage of moments starting with my own mother, who was a stay at home mom, but I joys wanted to be that was her dream, and so it was crafts and food and holidays and field trips, and then here I was about to leave again, and on the bathroom floor. I at first I kind of decided I would have to say no, and that opportunity would just have to come back around at about our time. And then I decided to ask myself if maybe I had another story I could tell myself where I wasn't that I wasn't a bad mom. And I don't know if you want me to tell that story. I remember it very clearly. Sure you get well, I mean just examining this because it's sort of funny because it's like we have I mean, the stories are often so specific too, because I mean the reason you were going to like turn them down is because you also like had a trip on Monday, yeah week, right, so a standard of a good mom you could have one business trying. Yeah, the story, the story is one exactly two is just right. It's beyond, it's beyond. I mean, you're right, You're right, like there are and where do these rules come from? And where did these where do these boundaries get set? And ultimately, yeah, like at what point do you get to bend the like I was letting that Monday fly dictate a dream like a once in a lifetime opportunity. It was just And that's something else that I've learned throughout creating this book and the interviews that I did, is how ridiculous. These stories are like they are silly in most cases, in many cases, and so yeah, I found another story. And there were plenty of them, of times that I had been a great mother, and one of them in particular that served me really well in that moment was a memory when my daughter was about three. We were at home in our bedroom. It was very pink, building something on the war with blocks. She looked at me and she said, Mama, we're building a castle, which we needed a moat and a drawbr there was work to do on the castle, but that was fine, and she said, and we live in this castle, Mama. It's our castle because we are two princesses, which to be seen as a princess by she's obviously a princess. That's that's how she understands herself. And that's fine. But that I was invited to be a princess too is pretty special. And then she looked at me again and said, and it's a big castle, mama, because we are two princesses who go to work. But she was so like the determination and the pride and we go and we get it done. Like there was just so much in that one sentence that really, what I was forced to realize was that maybe what I'm doing is teaching my children to dream bigger. That this is what And I hadn't really thought of that before. So I tried that story instead. Sitting on the bathroom floor, that what story am I creating for them by saying yes to this event? So I said yes, and it was amazing. And I've used that story many times because that spiral can catch up to you at any given point. Any of our stories can, so I use that better one. Well, it's just interesting how we form stories too. And you talk about this a little as well, because you could have just as easily come out of that with a narrative. You were going to go place at a magazine with one of these you know, personal essays of like I realized, they're on the bathroom floor. That family was the only thing that mattered. You know, this was my epiphany, and I'm going to, you know, make a whole story out of that. Yes, but you didn't. You chose a different story. So look, I mean, yeah, it suggests that we really can choose whatever we want. You're absolutely right, Like that exact same moment, I could have told myself the Princess Castle story and been like, no, I just don't want that. I don't want her to care about cast I want her to be with her mother, right, And you're right, I could have left. However, that's the real, quintessential point is if you have a vision for where you want to be, right like that in the book I tell like the Emerald City, there's some Wizard of Oz imagery in there, and be choosing stories that help get you to where you want to be, and you can that there is so For example, in that situation, I split the difference. I told the agent that I would go to the event, but I couldn't leave on Friday. I wanted to have a family dinner and some great quality time with my kids before getting on the plane on Saturday, going and speaking, and then continuing on with my work for the week. And that's not to say that there haven't been times in my life where I have realized, no, I've gone too far. Work is too much. But when I thought about where I wanted to go and who I wanted to be and what was important to me, saying yes was the right choice. But it might be a different choice for someone else. You're right, like it's it does kind of. It's funny because when you look up the book on Amazon and you put choose your everything that comes up is choose your own adventure. Like there are like four hundred Choose your Own Adventure books, And in that way, it's not unlike choosing your adventure choosing your story. Yeah, So just sort of practically for our listeners, because I'm sure we've all been in situations where we have a very strong reaction to something and we're trying to start how can you kind of tell that you are probing into a foundational story in your life, like that you're dealing with something a little bit deeper than just, you know, the question of whether two business trips this week is or exactly exactly, I would say there's several different ways. So one of the ways is anytime you hear yourself saying something extremely definitively and it's it's a limiting statement. So I am one that happens a lot for people is I'm just not enough, I'll never be successful, I'm just not good with money, like these blanket statements. Anytime you hear yourself, and sometimes you won't hear yourself, I recommend that you put a timer on your boat. You know, when your watch tells you to stand up, if you have an Apple Watch or one of those tracking watches, that's also a signal for you to stop and say, what story am I telling myself right now? What's happening here? What is that one ticker tape that's going across There's an indication that there's probably a story there. Anytime you get one of those strong reactions to something, and even sometimes you can't quite put your Have you ever had that happen where you're like, wait, something was bothering me just a second ago, and you go back you have that strong reaction, that's an indication that there's a likeliest story there. I find that anytime I'm procrastinating, I'm doing the laundry and picking up my house, I'm sending emails when I should be doing something else, there are likely stories there that are probably fear based to stories, failure based stories that are keeping you from doing the thing you know you should be doing. Or anytime you sent some sort of spiral. It happens a lot for me in exercise, like oh, I can't do it, I don't have enough time, and I don't have a one time my husband, I wanted to go work out, but I wasn't working out. I was just thinking about wanting to work out, and he just put on his shoes and went out the door and went for a run. And I was so mad, And because well, there he doesn't even have to think about what the kids are going to I didn't have to think about what the kids were going to do either. The kids are fine. But what I needed in that moment to get out and do my workout were some very small So it can come up in really small ways too, some really small stories that reminded me of the benefits of like how I feel after I exercise. So there are a lot of different There are a lot of different ways. But I think that's one of the That's one of the things I hope people take away from this book. If nothing else, it's just the awareness that, wow, maybe there is more to this. Maybe there are some stories here that I need to work through and choose better ones. Yeah, because there are some good stories we tell ourselves too. I mean, you know, certainly, But the problem is that the negative ones tend to have an outside effect, right, I mean, because it's the ones that are, you know, keeping us from doing things that we wish to do are the ones that we should look at choosing differently? Yeah, and know that, I mean that is how our brain is programmed. Our brain is programmed to keep us safe. And so the negative stories and keeping us in line and a little bit afraid is our brain is doing its job. But if you have a bigger desire, then it's kind of time to take it off autopilot in that way. Yeah. So for our listeners, though, practically, what does this look like to choose a different story. One of the great stories in your book is about a gentleman who is a financial planner and every week he's confronted by this triggering email from his company showing like the leaderboard of sales, which he is never on right right, So every this is how his company chooses to start Monday morning, for whatever reason, send out this email showing like ninety five percent of the company that they're failures. So be that as it may. He's getting this email every morning, how does he choose a different story? Maybe that can give our listeners some practical tips. Yeah, and there is that was something that was important as well, is to have practical tips to have a pathway forward is so that this is something you really can do, not just think about. So even working backwards, for him, he knew when a negative story was triggered, when this story of I'm mediocre was what it kind of all boiled up to was I'm just mediocre, I'm never going to be the best, and how that really made him feel bad and so to choose a different so he was process, you have to start by catching that, catching those stories. So he knew, like, wow, I'm mediocre. He had some stories from his childhood where he was never the best, and then analyzing, Okay, where did these come from? Why are they here? Can I look at this differently? Do these stories serve me? And ultimately then the third step is to choose a better one. And in the process of choosing a better one, for him, it was one that was outside business. It wasn't directly related to success in sales. It was a story about planting a tree and his grandfather had planted these trees, and his father had commented on, you know, your grandfather planted these trees and now we get to enjoy the shade, and this like really beautiful story about doing something now for future gain that may not even be for you and him, And then he that summer had gone out and planted a tree, and how good that felt for him and what that really meant and for him retelling himself, that story realigned him with who he really is and why he's really here and he's not the you know, fast and loose, I'm going to try to book as many clients and get as many deals through. And you know, however, whatever it is, he really is a person about longevity and seeing that all encompassing beauty of life, which just happened to serve him well as a financial planner. And he did say that. Then his clients, once he found that story and used it to ground himself, his client interactions got a lot better because they've got a better sense of the essence of who he was. And so now every time that email comes in, before he opens it, he revisits that story. So he can open that email from a very steady place of knowing who he is and being able to move forward from there. Wonderful. That's a great story. So just shifting gears a little bit because I read something in your book that tell me a little bit about your lego projects. Oh my gosh, yes, Laura, I love legos. I love I see who doesn't, but you know, maybe not everybody. No, It's so funny because people will come over to our place and say, oh, look at all their legos and I'm like, no, not there, those are my like my legos. But that was actually one of the reason that's in the book is like, what is your story for self care? Right? Like you get to choose. Like some people, it's I was just out with friends the other night and they're like, oh, massage, and I'm like, wow, I don't like massages they take. They're too long, they're too I don't know, there's just something I should probably get massages, but instead I would rather sit on the floor and build a lego set because I feel productive and I we do that as a family and it's a great way to just be together and all be working on something. So you get to choose, which, again, it's not always going to be one size fit's all. I hear a lot of shoulds, Well, I should, this is what it should look like. This is how families should work, This is what a career should look like. You know, just the other day I was talking to a woman who's an expert. She's done so much research, she's just really well respected in her field. And she said, I can't tell you how many times she said out loud, I should write a book. I should write a book. I should write a book. And I just wanted, but do you want to? Like? Do you want to do? And if you don't, you don't have to take everybody else's story or the story they're trying to cram down your throat. If you don't want to write a book, then don't find the story that works for you. And so for me, it's not massages, it's not baths or facials. It's Legos. I'm a big fan of Legos too. We're a Lego family over here. We just Kendra and I are recording this in mid December. We just completed our Christmas scene. Yeah, they do each year. You know. I'm thinking of buying a second one because I found the Elf clubhouse, so we may have to go get that one. Now. Do you know that they have do you have the home alone house? I do not. I know. I thought I saw I got served an ad for a Lego home. I know they know me well for the home alone Lego house. Yeah, I wish I'm going to look that up. And I looked that up. Yeah. Well, and Lego is onto this. By the way, they had a wonderful ad in a magazine I saw recently where they had a gentleman who is clearly like just home from work, and it's like it's an adults welcome and he was like unwinding while, you know, making some Lego scenes. So they're onto us. I know, they know, they know, they know you didn't buy that for your kid. I know you. I know, well you could see even in the background there, I've got the Lego typewriter. Do you see right, Well that's a good scene for an office. So you like that Lego typewriter, you actually get the Lego typewriter. Get it now before it sells out, before it sells out, exactly exactly? Well can Yeah, this has been great. We always end with a love of the week, just something that's cool that we either discovered or found or read or saw or listened to or whatever. Legos could definitely be it, although I have a different one I could go first. So I just found out maybe everybody else knows this, but that the notes function on your iPhone can actually scan documents. Oh yeah, this was like a total game changer. Yes, As I was explaining to someone like Okay, I'll get that stuff to you, but I just got to get my scanner hooked up, and all of a sudden he's like, Laura, I have a hope. I got a deal for you. Wait, it can do it that, Like you could just have a piece of paper and scan it with your just have a piece of paper, open notes in your iPhone and then it's like go to like the camera and that it's it's it's scanned document. It comes up and it takes you know, it's a PDF. It turns it right and you can email it to somebody or whatever you want to do. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm okay, I don't have anything as cool as that. I really don't. I I would say the thing that is like really giving me life right now is is soul cycle. And I'll say not in a like exercise fitness, like nothing to actually actually do with my body health, Like it has nothing to do, but it is a place to go when you just want to hurt yourself a little bit, like you know, like where you just want to, like if you want to be really angry but also kind of like peppy and productive at the same time, like I've been going way more than I should, and again not to get in shape, but just to just to get it out. It's to be there on mid December before the crowds descend. Oh my gosh, I can't even even imagine. Oh my gosh, I totally forgot it. Well, they'll be gone by February and unless they start changing the story they tell them their story, I know I have a person who exercises. No, I may never get enough forget. I said that. I really like Celery. That's my new find of you. Everyone else should like sellers here there choose that story. All right. Well, Kendra, thank you so much for joining us. Where can our listeners find you, Well, you can find me at Kendrehall dot com. Of course I'm there. I am on Instagram, at Kendra Hall LinkedIn Facebook, any of those places, and also at full Cycle or the Lego store, at the legod store exactly, so look for Kinder there. All right. Thank you so much, Kender for joining us. Laura loved being here. Thank you. All right, Well we are back that was a great interview. I'm actually recording this part from a closet in my new home. There's like weird beeping going on, so I'm trying to be as far away from it as possible. Just if I sound a little weird, I'll put more blankets in here soon, hopefully sound proof as well. But anyway, we're here with the question. And this is from a listener who requested that we call her Anne, and she said, listening to this podcast has changed my perspective so much. She was telling herself various stories. She grew up in a conservative religious culture. We're staying home with kids and not working outside the home is considered the most important thing a woman can do, partly for various run of the mill patriarchal reasons, but also to instill your values and faith into your kids world views, which I think may make slightly more sense than just the straight up patriarchy. But anyway, she says, she's kept my faith but found myself at odds with many of the traditional views of my upbringing. She has a great job, so she is seriously considering not staying home full time when her first kid is born next year. So you know, with the topic of childcare. She's heard those standard tropes of oh, letting someone else raise your kids. She's also, you know, concerned with school, like, you know, how is she going to be able to be sure that her values are represented in that? So, you know, she asks us about that about sharing values about faith or how much of an active role you can take in these things, and how you can also ensure that your parenting preferences are carried out when you have paid primary caregivers versus being the primary caregiver your stuff. So, Sarah, it was your take on us, Oh my gosh, My first take was just this was like a really difficult, like almost juicy question. So we will try to do it justice, but I'll also be interested in others' perspectives just because this does seem it actually is something I hadn't. I don't know, like I'm sheltered in a way where I don't know as many people with this kind of upbringing and these kind of challenges. So this question was also just sort of interesting and a little bit eye opening for me to read from my perspective, which obviously is a bit different. I do think kids soak up so much of what we do. How we talk how we act, what our values are, even if they're going to school, and I'll point out Laura will remind us, all there are one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week, and even if we work forty of them, that leaves plenty of times for the kids to be home with us and observing us, like all week and long and every night, et cetera. There are objective studies. If you look at Emily Oster's book The Family Firm, she kind of goes through data about what happens to kids when the parents work. The short answer is nothing terrible. There are slightly higher rates of obesity, but doesn't sound like that's your main concern. And even that is, you know, there are myriad other factors that are going to influence the risk of obesity in your children. I will say, you know, this is interesting because you mentioned like public versus private, and you also mentioned like Laura being definitely more religious than I am, which is true, and we are in a Montressori that is non denominational and we love it. It's not really for a values issue. It's more just for kind of a nurturing environment and educational style. But it does sound to me like a happy medium for you if it's available in your area, would be a high quality religious education, if that's something that you're interested in, and you know, it's never too early to think about where you live and what schools are available, because some people choose to live in an area where a school matches what their preferences are. So I think that my strike a balance for what you're looking for, because it sounds like you really want certain ideas and cultural values to be emphasized, and hopefully there is a school out there that that kind of matches what you're looking for. Yeah, I mean, I think that's definitely something to keep in mind as you look forward. As for you know, hiring a caregiver, Like if you hire somebody good and sort of share what your values are, like, they are going to support that. And one of the things you can certainly do, even with younger kids, is sign them up for activities that will support your values. There's all sorts of like religious programming that you can you know, involve kids with. You know, maybe if your faith community has various like playgroups or you know, after school events and runs various things, making sure that your children are involved in those would be a good way to establish that, and of course your caregiver will happily bring them to those you know, if you've signed up, and they might be on the lookout for things too. And again, if you hire someone good like, they are not going to undermine your values like you. Obviously you cannot hire someone based like on their religion like what you're getting into hiring is discriminatory and all that. But again, if you know what your values are, then the person who is helping raise your kids as their job will help support your values to do that. And I've even seen that in things like you know, if people are observant Jewish families, for instance, who keep kosher, they will you know, hire caregivers who then train and how to keep a kosher kitchen for instance, as a way to even if the caregiver themselves is not part of that community, it's something that you can learn. And so obviously with the evangelical Christian there's less things you know, associated like that with like household upkeep, but you know, you can share whatever your values are and the person can support them. I would also say that you know, if you are going to go the religious school route, it might help to keep your job, because putting lots of children through private school is not going to be particularly cheat. So something to support your idea of continuing to work. I do find it interesting that people have come up with this idea of it as somehow in keeping with religion and faith for women to not have any sort of paid gig. I suspect that many people saying that have not in fact read the entire Bible through and are pulling cherry picking various verses here and there. I've always thought that the Proverbs thirty one woman sounded like a bit of an entrepreneur to me. She was managing landholdings and all that such stuff, and in addition to running her household. So that's another verse you might look into. But I was saying, if you're going to determine your life based on what you think Scripture says, make sure you've read it, like, make sure you've read through the whole thing, all right, not just a few phrases here and there. Because I have read pretty much Bible, and I have come away with the thought that women are treated a lot more prominently in the Bible than they probably were at the time. And I think that's because God has a special place for us and roles for us to do that are beyond just what we do in our families, that we have so much to contribute to the larger world as well. And you can see that in many of the stories of the great women of the Bible, the great saints through history, the women who have built amazing social movements and who have you know, helped keep the church going for a great many centuries and such. So anyway, just my takeaway there. But you know, as Sarah said, there are one hundred and sixty eight hours in a week, and so there's plenty of time to work, to share your faith, to be part of your faith community, to have friends, have hobbies, raised wonderful children, all that stuff too. And if you're worried about what other people will say, I mean, such as life. I think a lot of you know, people care a lot less about our lives than we think. You know, everyone is ultimately living their own life, and so you just have to say, well, what makes me and my family work. You know, what makes me happy, what makes my kids life work, what makes my family life work. And if you feel like you would like to continue in your career, then that's great. And you can either come up with a pocket phrase to answer to people whenever they say something, or just you know, laugh it off because you know, ultimately it's between you and God and not anyone else. All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. I interviewed Kendra Hall on are the Stories We Tell Ourselves. We will be back next week with more on making work in life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.