Carol with Lauren Flans and Nicole Pacent

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Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus, and we talk about the representation of women in movies our podcast you're listening to. That's it, This is it? Your taps? Here y are, yeah, and here we are and here we are once again. The Bechtel Cast takes a look at how female characters are portrayed in famous movies, and we use the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for that discussion. What on earth is that? Well, I'll tell you. It's a test invented by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. It's a media test that requires that two female identifying characters. They have to have names, and they have to talk to each other for two lines of dialogue about something that is not a man or related to a man. Wow, it sounds like it should be easy, but a lot of movies. The Lord of the Rings doesn't pass not one of the ten hours of that famous movie franchise. So that's why we're here. Yes, and we did this on the Debs episode as well, But I wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the origins of the Bechdel test than we normally do because I think it's specially relevant for this movie that we're discussing. Um. So, Jamie, as you said, Alison Beachtel Queer Icon inadvertently created the Bechdel Test in her book Dikes To Watch Out For, which was published in I think some people think that she kind of like deliberately set out to create this test. It's it's that it was. It's usually presented as like it was invented, as like, you know, like an academic paper or something. Right, it was more that it appeared in her book and then it was just like later co opted into the test that we now use today. And Alison Becktel credits the idea to her friend Liz Wallace and to the writings of Virginia Woolf, specifically her essay A Room of One's Own Um. And then the test is sometimes referred to as the Bechdel Wallace test, which Alison Bechtel is said to prefer so that's probably what we should call it also, but we don't. We simply always forget. It's simply our fault and we've funked up and we're sorry. Yes, we're so sorry. Um. And then in the comic Dikes to Watch Out for Uh, there are two lesbian characters, and the context of their conversation is that there is so little queer woman representation in movies that the only way for them to imagine a female character in a movie might be a lesbian is if she is seen talking to another woman on screen about not a man, like about something other than a man. Right, So the context of the original comic is like rooted in like Alison Bechdel's querness, and that is generally erased from the conversation surrounding the Bechdel tests of Ectel Wallace test. So the because especially for our episode today, but also all the time, um, you know, contacts like that is so often erased. We've even been guilty of it at times on this show. So it is it is definitely worth bringing up. And also just like read Alison and Bectel's stuff and watch it. You can watch it on a fucking Broadway. It's so it's and it's also incredible and good. So indeed, Yeah, the Bechtel Wallace test there, it is there, it is baby. Hey, should we introduce our guests. Let's do it. I'm excited for today. Me too. We have two guests today. They are the hosts of Coming Out with Lauren and Nicole a k a. Coming Out Pod. It's Lauren Flans and Nicole Patient. Thank you so much for being here, Thank you for having us. Well, guys, so we are talking about the movie Carol. Carol, what is each of your relationship with this movie? We should probably start with Lauren because I think her relationship is more intimate and better. Yes, um, I saw this movie in theaters shortly after I came out, which is rare for me. I do not see movies that often. But um, I have a buddy who for years and years now every Christmas we movie hop which guys don't do that pay for your movies, but one day a year we will like pay for a movie at ten am and then just see like three movies over the course. Get a beautiful tradition. Yeah, and also I feel like in certain I guess Carol isn't maybe the best example of this, but like for like Disney, for like anything owned by Disney, I'm like, I will watch this for free. I feel entitled, exactly. And Carol was the first movie of the day, so you paid for that, paid for Carol. The following movie I did not pay for it was Daddy's Home and I don't feel badly about that. Oh god, it's actually I really enjoyed it. I'm not gonna die. It's a great follow up to Carol. Is like a Palette concert. It's Will Ferrell and Mark Wahlberg and a lot of hi jinks. Okay, yeah, we'll watch him at some point, inevitably we'll do a betel Cast episode on the Daddy's Home friend. Yeah, it's almost a franchise. One more and I think there's I think there's two of them. Yeah, there's still Well, when Daddy's Home three comes out, we'll be sure to do. Everything's on hold, But I did. Yeah, I saw it in theaters on Christmas with my friend um who And I'll just tell this part quickly, but he's one of he's a friend I've known since college. I've known him since before I was out and we've never had. He's one of those friends and I don't have a lot of these. But I don't know if the call you, if any you probably know it. But I was gonna say, is one of those friends. Were like, I'm like, does he know that I'm gay? Because he's not on social media that much and we've known each other since before then and we've never talked about it. So it was a very weird movie to like be sitting next to like my straight guy friend of me, like, what does he get? Yeah, I know everybody knows I'm queer. I don't even ask you that it would be they'd have to be under a rock. Nicole, what's your relationship with the movie? I actually did not see it in theaters. I saw it via a screener afterwards. That's what I've done the past several years, where I'm like, why would I pay for this when I'm going to get it in the mail? Um, And so that's what I did. I mean, my first impression of it was just that it was really beautiful. The color palette is awesome in the movie, which is something I noticed again the second time. Um, it's also shot on sixty millimeter. I want to say, yeah, so it like has that grain to it. So I mean, from like a visual standpoint, I really enjoyed it, And Okay, if I wasn't already queer, i'd be queer for Kate Blanchet, Like that's a great way that I love everything that she does, and I think that she she's like maybe no, she's my favorite actress, so she can, in my opinion, do no wrong. Um, and she's such a presence that it's just it's amazing. So except for when she doesn't pass the Bechtel test in Lord of the Rings her fault. I like to hold women accountable for movie. Definitely, she did a polish on all the Lord of the Rings crabs. I think that originally, okay, let's make this Candon. The movie did pass the Bectel test quite a bit, and Lynch went into meetings and was just like, I just am not comfortable with women speaking to each other. So that yeah, okay, go ahead. So so I mean I remember loving loving her in it and just thinking it was a really you know, beautiful film and sad and melancholic and very reflective of that time and important that we tell those stories and how difficult it was because I think sometimes we're like, especially in Los Angeles, we're like, oh, you know, everything's fine, now you know? Um, So I think it's an important part of queer history, those kind of stories. But it didn't. It didn't like go to the canon of one of my favorite queer films though, And I didn't really know why that was until the second time around and watching it and realizing that Rooney Mara is about as interesting as a piece of cardboard, so I just, yeah, we will. But in watching it the second time, I have some issues. But it had been funny to me because like all of my queer female friends were obsessed with that movie, and I remember just being like, uh, I wonder why it hasn't like stuck with me, And now I know, you know, oh um. I didn't see it in the theater, but I did watch I knew that it had like a lot of buzz around it, so I made sure to watch it pretty soon afterward. And I similarly thought it was visually beautiful. I think it's boring. That is the most popular opinion. And I have reasons to back this up, which we will get into, and it has largely to do with the what I think is a lack of on screen chemistry between Cate Lynchett and Rooney Mara. But yeah, we'll get there. Um. But yeah, I only had seen it that once before prepping for this episode, so I don't have much of a grand history with it. But um, yeah, I'm excited to talk more about it, Jamie, what about you. I hadn't this was this movie came out in which was truly before I saw movies in theaters. I so I didn't see it when it came out. I remember there were multiple of my aunts who told me to go see it. My aunts like all saw it together and they were just like, it's beautiful. You have to see it. Like, I don't listen to my aunts. I'm an adult. Um, my aunts loved it, but I mean, I really, I really enjoyed it. I also, it's so weird because we were talking in the car driving over about it and you were like, I think it's boring. I was like, oh, I really liked it. But and then later I was like, I was asleep for like ten minutes a couple different times, but then I would have to like a couple But then when I rewound it, I'm like, it's so beautiful. But I was asleep sometimes, but it was so beautiful. Should I do the recap? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, So it's the end of I think nine. I believe. I think that's right. That's right around the holidays, we meet Terres. That's Roney Mar's character. She works at a department store and at work she catches the eye of a woman who is shopping for a gift for her daughter, because women be shopping and women mothers. Carol and this is Carol Kate Blanchett's character. And Carol approaches Terres. They get to talking, and then Carol accidentally leaves her gloves behind at the department store. Accident was like accidents I've done before, right, We've all left, you know, earrings or something. I guided that with his jewel pot at my house. I think Jeel modern Carol. Yeah, the update, Carol leaves her jewel time on the counter. See, I like, but guys are not crafty enough to have done that accidentally with an asterisk he left it is. It's the George Costanza move though from Seinfeld. I think, oh, far be it from me, which I assume is borrowing from the Patricia George Costanza and Carol. That was his move. He used to leave something and draw his apartment and stuff that he cou But we are on a in sant anw Carol and Carol leaves her gloves. Yes that we see Carol at home and she has a husband, Hard he's the guy from Friday Night Lights. Yes, truly, and he doesn't act well enough to convince me he's not the guy from Friday Night Lights. In this particular movie, I'm like, Okay, it's Mr Coach. I think he does a fine job. But anyway, so she has a husband, She has a daughter named Rindy, who she loves so much. She loves her daughter Rindy. They are rich important to know that. And then there is a mention of Carol's good friend Abby, who we will meet later on, who Hard Hard clearly has a problem with. And then we see a little bit of terrass life. She has a boyfriend named Richard who wants her to go to Europe with him. She has an interest in photography, and then she mails the gloves back to Carol. I like that she's a photographer. I think in the book she's not a photographer, But then in the movie she is a photographer because she's not like the other girls. Oh yeah, have I there of you read the book? I haven't. That's all right, yes that I have not read it. We'll go a little bit into the history of this book, the adaptation. I've read the Wikipedia page of the Book of Us. We would never read a none of us, um, but we we just did some research on the adaptation Chess. So Carol takes Terres to lunch to say thank you for returning the gloves. We learned that Carol is in the middle of a divorce. And then Carol invites Derres to her very large house. They hang out, and then Heart comes home and he's like, who is this lady riding night lights? He's like, Carol, you know, come with me for Christmas. She's like, no, I don't want to work getting a divorce. And then he's all piste off fight the big games coming up, touchdown. And then soon after Carol learns from her lawyer that Harge is filing for soul custody of their daughter on the grounds of a morality clause because basically, because she's had a relationship with women, she is considered an unfit mother. So Carol is obviously very upset about this, and then to Raise and her hanging out some more, and then her boyfriend Richard is upset with her. He's like, you have a crush on a woman and she's like, no, I don't, but yes she does. I like how to raise like she's she doesn't stand up for herself in a lot of areas of her life, but against Richard, she's always just like shut up. Like I was. I was like, oh my, I wish I could do that, where he's just like, why don't you want to be my girlfriend? And she's like leave me alone, go away, I don't want to meet your Like she manages to do all of it showing little to no emotions, which is which is really impressive. Stop go away. I'm going to be such a Rooney Mara to her in this episode, which I can tell it like here, here's what I'm gonna say. I actually really like Runey Mara and other things, so like, I'm not this is not me like hating on Runey Mara and no, totally from a queer standpoint, I wanted her so bad girl with the dragon tattoo because that's my type and way seen that movie. So this is one of the few things that's runey Marian. But anyway, anyway, sorry, it does seem like her being boring in this movie was a choice because she can do not boring. Definitely, That's why it was very well, yeah, should we wait till the end of the Yeah? Okay, Well so whin she's more Okay, so the rest of this recap here we go. So then Carolin Torey has leave together to go on a road trip to the Midwest, and they're getting closer and closer. There's a hand touch here, there's a hand on the shoulder there, and then at one point rustling a fabric this like shots of a steering wheel and you're just like, it's also to fall, and then you're like, I'm sleepy. And then at one point to Ray suggests that they share a motel room rather than get two separate rooms. And then shortly after this they finally kiss the mom and we've been waiting for New Year's New Year's Eve, Yes, it's the New Year. They kissed during the ball drop, and then they have sex, and then they meet what seems like a nice gentleman on their travels, but he turns out to be seems he seems creepy. Yeah, I have magazines want to buy the d like, yeah, is creepy. And the movie tells you he's creepy because whenever you like, hear his voice off screen before you see him, and then as soon as you hear his voice, the camera tilts up really fast and like a startling, like, oh, who's this guy is? So you're like, we know not to trust him, but we don't know why yet. But the reason why is that he is a private snoop kind of guy who Hard had hired to follow Carol and to Raise around to record them to have further evidence in his case in this divorce. So then Carol gets on a flight back to New York and her friend Abby Sarah Paulson's character flies in to drive to Raise back to New York, and then Carol has left a letter that effectively breaks off their relationship. She's like, we shouldn't have any contact, and you know by forever to Raise is devastated understandably, and then we cut to some time later, Um, she's developing some photos she took. Carol has been seeing a psychotherapist and she's clearly trying to do whatever it takes so that she can keep seeing her daughter. To Raise makes an effort to contact her, but then eventually stops. Is at this point that Carol has had it. She's like, I'm gonna see my daughter and I'm gonna keep being with women, and that's my final offer. Bangs her table, damn it. And then the guy's like oh, and then Carol contexts Raise, and then they meet up and then it's the same scene we see in the very beginning, which we weren't really sure what was going on, but now we get it. Carol asks if Rays wants to come live with her in her new apartment, and then Trace is like, no, I don't think so. Carol says, I love you, and just then they get interrupted and Terrace goes to a party, and then Carrie Brownstein is like making eyes at her there and we're like, sure, why not, okay, and then but then Terray's returns to the restaurant where Carol is at and then they look at each other and then they smile, and then they're going to be together the end. Also, Terres becomes a photographer at the New York time and and still is saying nothing, I think is she not just like I think, like a file. Yeah, I think she's like what they let girls do back just sitting a room with men and take notes of what the men said. Yes, she's got to glow up though it's better. Yeah. Yeah, she's doing well for a woman. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back for the discussion. We're back. Yes, there's so much to talk about. Well, why don't we hand it over to the two of you and talk about the representation of queerness and queer women in this movie and how you felt it was handled and just your general thoughts on that. I well, I should say I love this movie. I would imaginally love this movie. I think I'm in the minority of not just queer women, but like anyone like I have definitely, both online and in person, been mildly shamed for finding this movie riveting because most people do think it's super boring. I've also been the opposite of King shamed for thinking it's hot, like people have active you just made it. I saw. I think this movie is hot. I will defend that later, but yeah, I think I'm in the minority. That being said, I think it's a good depiction. I mean it is you know, it is of a very specific time period. It definitely has its issues. I think watching it this time, I think there are two people of color in the entire movie. They do not speak there in service positions. Uh yeah, And you know we make the argument like, well it's that time, and they like of this stature, they wouldn't they'd only be interacting with white people, and like, yes, that's true, but also what the fuck? Um? So, yes, I think this movie has this issues in terms of queerness specifically. I think it's a great depiction. U I can talk now about what I perceive. Yeah, I know. One of the kind of issues that I have with it, I think, more so with Richard, is that so Terres is like a blank slate, and so I think for a lot of it's like people projecting what they like. When Richard's like I love you, I want to spend my life with you, it's like, what do you love about her? Dude? What are you? Act? Question I had to every single person who was like, actually, Carrie Brownsteen at the end, she's like, how do you know fil or something? She said, Well, I assume like everybody here is fills friends and carry Brownsteen looks a her and goes, I see why Phil speaks so highly? Yeah, back, why why why she said words that is a misstep. Yeah, you're like, what do you see? I was? It's just Crazy's a photographer. She's not like the other girl. She's not like the other girl. She has a fantastic haircut, especially for that era stands out in the crowd. But yeah, I think with Carol, initially, I think it's it's are a definitely like a physical attraction and like a I will call it a vibe, which I think in like that's what you had to go off of, like if there was any sort of electricity, You're like, I guess I'll aggressively follow that because otherwise I'm never going to meet anyone ever. Like That's just sort of how it was. And I do think that Carol Enterrez. I think Carol does get to know her as a person and does love her for her. You can argue that the audience has to do a lot of that work on their own of like I know, because I can think in the same thing because like we don't we see those pretty shots of them with the hand and the wheel and this and the whatever, but like the actual getting, we don't get to know Tures much less Kate Blanchet, Like, we don't have any idea why she actually likes her other than this initial chemical attraction that they have. And I'm not sure that I agree with you. I'm not sure I buy that anyway. Um, their chemistry have seen much better chemistry. But like, I don't think. I don't think it's horrible, but I just to me, I'm like, I can't, I cannot Cate Blanchett is so she has so much power her character, and she is so well rounded, and there's just there is so much that she brings to the table that you're like, why this blank slate of a person. Well, I think that's part of what she's attracted to. I think Tres place everything like so close to the vest. You can argue that there's nothing underneath the vest if you like, but I prefer to think of it it's like Carol, that character. Everything is just out like it is just out there. There's no subtlety, there's like and Terres is like a mystery or you know, like she's got and some people are drawn to that, especially people who are very like spotlight on me all the time. I do think there's an attraction to people who are more like like what is she thinking? Which is a line that she said, She's like, do you know many times a day I ask you that I liked I liked her in the book. I don't know. I mean because Runey Mara, I think it's like thirty when this movie is filmed or something. But the character Torres and in the ages, I feel like we're sort of intentionally not stated in the movie because of the actors. But Torres is supposed to be like nineteen or twenty. She's supposed to be really young, and so I'm like, who has a personality when they're nineteen and they're you know, I had a magnetic personality when I was nineteen. Well, I certainly didn't like I, especially if I was around like an older person that I was sexually intimidated by and had a huge question and I don't know, like I I again, it's like, it's it's weird because I agree with both of you that it is is a boring movie, but they were also I I really I don't know, I like related to her with just there were moments where her personality, Like she snapped at Richard constantly because she just wasn't intimidated by him and was very direct with the people. She wasn't intimidated by people. She was. She kind of disappeared and I was like, oh, that's how I was when I was nineteen. Hopefully I wasn't quite that boring. But there's you know, boring representation in this movie is high. Well, someone needs to represent I mean there's not enough of that. There's boring person eratre and I think this movie does a lot in that area. But yeah, no, I think with the with the with people, she's not intimidated by it, specifically men, because in that scene at night with that guy Danny in the office, he's like, oh I think like right before he kisses her and he's like, I think people are and she's like, I don't think that at all. Right, Yeah, I mean that's energy, and she like disagrees with him. She's like, I don't think that. But then yeah, with Carol, she's very I let myself get hopelessly sidetracked, as I do. But what I was going to say, Nicole is like in seeing this, since Nicole and I both volunteer facilitate at the l A LGBT Center, and in in doing that and in seeing in talking to like so many women who are like just coming out, so especially in the early nineteen fifties, especially when she's like one whatever, I think it's like she's not a fully formed person because she hasn't reckoned with that part of herself. So I think she literally is a blank slate because there's this huge part of her like she's getting you guys, like she's as fuck like she s he's girl, and she's like it's like she's this girl who hasn't had any of that developed, so she's coming across as just like this literally empty vessel. I don't know. It was really interesting for me to watch this movie having now met so many women who are just initially coming out and like coming into themselves, and I was like, oh, I have decided to believe that that Rooney Mara is making a really intelligent character choice, and that's what I've decided to be. Sounds like me on the Paddington episode. Yes, I definitely see that read of it, and I hadn't considered that before, so so thank you. I suppose where I was coming from it is that to me? Like, as I said, there wasn't didn't feel like there was that much chemistry on screen between the two of them, and I wondered if that had anything to do even though I think they're both excellent actors like and I do like Rooney Mara. I do think she's as we said, social network. We've all seen it, and I do like her and girl with the dragon tattoo and everything like that. But um yeah, I found her perhaps two withdrawn in this movie. But I'm wondering if the lack of chemistry had to do with them both being straight or at least married to men. I don't know exactly how Runey Mara and Kate Blanchett identified, but they're married to men, So I'm wondering would there have been more chemistry, would it have been like a hotter let being romp if they queer women? Well, and potentially I think that that's that's true, Um, I mean, and who knows, they've never to my knowledge, have never come out one way or another, if anybody can correct me on that, But um yeah, I mean the problem is that, you know, with a movie like that, or like movie like Disobedience or whatever, these like big movies that we're seeing coming out that actually are starring um, queer women, or which I'm called what was the one this year with your girlfriend girlfriend? The Favorite, which absolutely loved, Like you need are they think that you need big star names and there are just almost no queer females who are at that level of their career like out at least out. So unfortunately, until either people start coming out or those queer women become famous, we're not gonna see are available, but we are are available and we have chemistry with women. Um, but yeah, I think um. In terms of going back to the initial question about like how does this represent queer women and queerness, it definitely checks a couple of boxes in that you have like the lesbian ex girlfriend who is now the best friend, Like that is a thousand percent a lesbian truth, just like you break up and then you're like, but I guess we're just besties now. And that's so immediately I was like, can do you drive my current girlfriend across the country? She's like sure, fine, incredible accommodating. Yeah, Like it's just exactly so I was like, no, okay, um that and also, um, the sad reality of you know, going back to the blank slate that is Rooney Mara, the sad reality of getting completely consumed by your first girlfriend so that your entire life is about absolutely nothing but that woman, are and wrote down. When I watched it the second time, I was like, wow, if there was, this is going to sound very medicines Like the Bechtel test is sort of a lesbian test. But if there was, like, uh, like a Bechtel test I somehow existed for just women in a just woman world and was really for lesbians, she would fail it. I did because she because her entire existence is about Carol. Granted the name of the movie is Carol. Fine, we can, we can say that this is a story, but like everything else just feels so unimportant and uninvested in. I don't even I don't believe her photography thing for one freaking minute. I'll be honest with you, like, I don't. I just don't believe it. And it's like her whole everything is Carol, and she just like, okay, whatever you say, you know, I just I don't know anything really about her outside of that. So I was like, wow, if she were a guy, this would fail so so hard, and be so stereotypical, but I hate to say it that like a lot of first girlfriend's situations are that way. So yeah, So I thought that was actually horribly accurate. The way that she talked about her photography career I thought was always I mean, because she is kind of a very passive character in some ways that I thought were like made sense with the character and otherwise where I'm like no, what, no, stand up for yourself a little bit, where like anytime someone would bring up her photography should be like, I'm horrible, I'm not good, I don't have the camera. I've never done it before, and it was just like you've been doing it for years, like please, It's like if we like I've like, actually i've only done one open mic, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm and then I just like buried myself alive her moments where I'm just like, you've done this before, Relax, It's fine. Yeah. I had a I have a quote from Kate Blanchett. She was asked, I think it was last year maybe in about um straight actors playing characters because it is like such a conversation that you know it's out there, and she she gave like a pretty direct answer, and when asked about Carol directly, she said, quote, I will fight to the death for the right to suspend disbelief and play roles beyond my experience. So that was like her direct statement on straight actors playing queer characters. And I guess I just wanted to get your opinions or thoughts on that. I don't disagree with that as an actor, to be honest, and that's probably it is an unpopular opinion in some spheres right now, Um, I don't. I don't disagree with it. I think that there are limits to that, obviously, when we're talking about like playing a different race or something where especially when the when the role is written specifically with a certain race in mind and has cultural references, et cetera. That is a line obviously, but something like with the queer characters. I just the problem is that you can take this argument that people are making to an extreme, so that actors are only ever allowed to play what their experience is, and then what is acting? You know, I think like and we can see that being taken to that place by certain people and casting and producers and stuff right now. Anyway, that said, I understand trying to balance it so that you are getting actors seen for roles that they hadn't been seen for before. Like it just wasn't okay to be an out actor for so long, and when you have only you know, straight people playing gay roles, people go, what what about all of our queer actors? You know? And then queer actors so for so long haven't been allowed to play straight roles quote unquote when being out because no one can see them as anything else but gay. But when a straight actor plays gay, they're like, well yeah, yeah, Like so that's that's where that is problematic and where people need something needs to shift so that actors can just be actors. You know. I think I'm still processing my feelings on this and have been for like probably a year now because it's come so much into the forefront with people like Scarlett Johanson and the issue, and I think I fall way more on the side of like, hey, let's not do that in terms of CIS actors playing trans characters. That to me does feel more black and white, where it's like, hey, let's stop doing that. But then but then that has forced me to be like, Okay, Lauren, if that's your feeling on that, then does that translate to you know, straight actors playing career actors. And ultimately, I think I do lean more towards what Nicola is saying, where it's like, no, that feels like a different it's the same. Maybe it's the same, like ballpark, but it's like a different look. I don't know baseball. It's like right field, like it's a different part Funday night Light. Uh. Yeah. And also like I never want Rachel Vice to stop playing queer characters, like please God, So I can never firmly come down the side that I think for something like Bad Woman, like let's all fucking support like the fact that they actively look to cast a queer female, like let's all support the funk out of that show. And like, yes, I'm so glad it's Ruby Rose. But I think, like Nicole is saying, let's look to get more of that. But I don't think it should be an exclusive, should be a requirement. Yeah, I agree that it becomes very very difficult not to mention that casting starts to become extremely difficult. Well right now you literally can't do it, Like what is Kristin Stewart gonna literally play every fucking please, God, no you speaking of cardboard? I just you can't do it right that. Actually it's funny. I thought of Kristin Stewart several times while watching in this movie because I was like, this must be the thing that everybody is like, well, she's there's a mystique. I'm like, oh, God, like give me personality. Mystique can really I don't know, do youk is the only thing boring people have? There's so many. Have you ever had like an experience like that with someone where you're just like, I don't know what are they all about? Like what's going on? And then we get to know them, You're like, oh, they just they're bored. I think maybe I'm a runey mari apologist because I think I think I fall for that a lot. I think I'm in the traditionally in the past, I'm working on all of this in therapy, you guys taking care of it. But I think I have been guilty of the like, oh that girl is mysterious, and I'm like you got to know, and you're like, oh that girl is boring. So maybe I relate. I feel like it goes one of two ways. You you're mystique because you're either boring or you're fucked up. It's like one, yeah, what a fun journey every time, or or the strangers sucked up and yet still boring. I don't see more of that. Yeah, we're all my fund up boring people at I might be one of them. I don't know. Um, we need to take another quick break, but we will be right back and we're back. Uh. Speaking of back, should we talk a little bit about the back story of this. Yeah, let's talk. Let's talk Patricia high Smith while we're at it. Let I did not know that much. I knew, I knew her name, and I knew I did not know she had written this book, which was originally called The Price of Salt Um came out in ninety two. But I knew her as the writer of the talented Mr Ripley. She was like famous for being a psychological thriller writer. Yeah, she also wrote the novel for Strangers on a Train. She's a fascinating, complicated dare is a problematic yes? Um? Yeah, So she wrote this The Price of Sault under a pseudonym Claire Morrigan two and then it was republished thirty eight years later as Carol under Patricia Highsmith's own name, and then it was adapted into the film Carol that we now know and are talking about, Um, bye bye, and the woman who adopted it, Phyllis n G. I think is as Yeah, I don't know how to say her last name, but that the woman who adapted the screenplay knew Patricia high Smith, and I think like the last ten years of her life, um, which I think is like kind of like a rare, rare success. Uh and adaptation. But anyways, back to Patricia, Yes, Carol. Screenwriter Phyllis something like that described high Smith as a lesbian who did not very much enjoy being around other women. Um. And this is something that you'll find a lot concerning how high Smith was described and considered. Um, she seemed to be a misogynist. She did not like other women. She basically would sometimes have sex with men just because she enjoyed their company more her whole. I mean, there's a lot of going. Well, the internalized misogyny is strong with this one. Yeah. She was compared to being a movie studio boss who would chase Starlett's speaking of This movie was produced by the Weinstein Company. The first frame you're like, she was also pretty racist. She was very racist anti Semitic. So the problem, there's a lot of problems like her. Uh the yeah that she was described as quote a lesbian with a misogynist streak unquote, and then there are a few people that are like she was actually you know, like she struggled with a lot of depression. There was a lot of mental illness going on as well that seemed to get worse as she grew older. A very complicated person. One thing I found out about her that I just want to with the class is that she had three hundred snails. Okay, so she had three hundred snails and one time she went to a party with a huge handbag full of one hundred snails eating lettuce. And if I read that, I was like that could so you like, did you ever read an anecdote where you're like, that could be me in forty years easily? Easily? I mean you had those leeches. I was like, she just like brought her snails out. There's your expression. You lead with your crazy. If you can't handle me with my hundreds in the bag, you don't deserve me. I mean, that's the lesbian trope. Though, right, just bringing a bunch of snails, the snails in a bag thing, true. I mean, her Wikipedia page is just it is fucking why it it's there like she's racist, she's misogynist. She wrote the first like lesbian novel ever, and she has three hundred snails and you're just like, what is I read it that she wrote the first lesbian novel with a happy ending Yes sorry I should have oh yeah, which I was definitely gonna comment on that. Actually, how like it's a funny thing because throughout launching the movie again and with an eye for Bechtel test kind of stuff, I couldn't help but feel because it's true that even though it is to the repeatedly two women in a room talking more than two lines of dialogue about things that aren't about a man, um so it clearly passes the presence of a man. A man specifically like looms over everything to the point where there are like, with the exception of the last moment of the movie, there are no enjoyable moments. It's like there's no moment where you really can just let go. Even the even the score does that right when they're having sex, it's like like big like like scary, sort of like ominous sounding music, you know which, So there's this cloud over everything, and it definitely, um, that's sort of unfortunate trope of of queer cinema or queer content where like they have sex and then it all goes wrong, like immediately happens. I did like that they balked that a little bit in the in the sense that they still had sex again that night, so it was a little bit of an f you. But then she leaves again the next day, so it's like until that last moment, the presence of a man is hanging over every single thing that happens. And granted that is the time period, but I do think that this film, I don't want to say it's problematic, but it definitely still falls in that category of like, well, I don't know, I don't want to be a queer person like that, like that's a it's a it's a difficult old queer story. Yeah, well I was going to say that, Um, yes, I guess this movie technically has a happy ending because we're to understand that they end up together, but at such a huge cost, where Carol has to sacrifice so much her dadaughter, so I mean, it's it's not that happy. Especially, I mean, we see how much she loves her daughter, and then she has to go into therapy to continue to see her daughter, which is to see. I thought that was like, I thought that she was calling a stop tall. I thought, like the compromise that she offers is like, I can't go against my own grant. I'm going to live my life like I am insisting on visitation. But then she only saw her daughter like once or twice. Yeah, but that but my understanding is at the court or what not, the court hearing whatever, with the stenographer, whatever the hell that Yes, I thought that that happened like days before she sees to rest. Oh, I guess we don't know how much time has passed. I don't think so, because they're already selling the house. She already has an apartment and a job. Didn't happen in a couple of days. This has been a couple of months usually. I also, I think I was because I read about Patricia Highsmith before I watched the movie all the way through, and it does seem like there are elements of Patricia Highsmith's life that are included in this movie because she was a Bloomingdale's girl, and and she was in therapy for many years, essentially a version of gay conversion therapy that she very much wanted to work. So I that was how I read it, But I think that was just because I had just finished reading all this about Patricia Highsmith of like, they frame her sexuality as basically a mental illness, and then you see her in therapy and like, oh, that doesn't seem good, but so not specific, I don't. I guess what I really like about this movie is that both characters, both Terres and Carol, are like unapologetic about their sexuality and they're not keeping it a secret from at least the people around them. Like Richard knows about her crush on Carol. Harge knows also Hard what is that name? Hard Arch the whole first time I saw also what is that name? Though? But um, so Harge knows about Carol, And yes, at the end, she says like, I'm not going to go my grain. Here's my final offer. I want visitation rights. But yeah, I mean she doesn't have custody of her daughter, hard soul custody, and so we know that Hard just like a dysfunctional alcoholic. So her daughter is not better off because we see Carol it. You know, she's a great mom and she loves her daughter, and she brusses her hair so much. I was just like, if you have to clean up your daughter's brush every day, my friend, your daughter is going bold but hey, baldest woman in charge, true grendy will someday be in charge. Um. But yeah, so, I mean it makes me appreciate the era that we live in now, which is still not great. But at least, you know, homosexual audio isn't considered a mental illness anymore, you know all that. So I like that they're unapologetic about their sexuality, but it still comes at at a great cost, especially for Carol and her daughter, So it does. And yeah, so it is hard to feel happy. I didn't feel happy at the end of that movie. That's for sure. It's not very uplifting. It's just not. But yeah, I also, I mean, and again part of this goes back like I will, I've promised I will cease and desists soon on this point. But like I also look at it into my for that girl, like a like for her. I mean, like I look at you know, the relationship with Abby, I totally understand, like that that friendship and that closeness and all of that sacrificing for that relationship I really get. And sacrificing just for who you are, regardless of who you're with or if you're with anybody, I totally get. But like for that girl also, And I just have to say this because this is sadly on on brand for lesbians. Um, but the like, oh, we went on a two week trip together and then we didn't speak and now do you want to move in? Is like such a lesbian and that's just like normal. Oh god, well Carol, so much like I remember the first time that I saw this in the theaters, I remember being so cringe e about how like that first scene where they have food and she's like, would you like to visit me this Sunday? Like it's like, what are you doing? You just learned you just asked her first name like seconds before. So yeah, there's definitely there's a lot of cringe worthy lesbian stereotype. I didn't feel as predator worry is sort of like the predatory romance that you see in like Debs, but there's still like a huge power dynamic imbalance between the two of them where Carol is much wealthier, she is older, and she's more sexually experienced. And then she and and also in in this movie, and this was like an adaptation change that I when I like figured out that had been changed, I was like, Oh, I don't really like that they made her a virgin in this She not in the book. No, she had been having said she had been having unfifilling sex with Richard, and like there was more context for it. Yeah, And then I feel like they almost do that character kind of a disservice by being like, you know, she's just floating around like I don't know, and it's not a Madonna horror thing, but that choice is just sort of indicative of like washing that character and making her even you know, because it's like if she not saying that, if you're a virgin, you don't have any life experience, but it just having that character have some experience going into that relationship would have made me feel more comfortable with the relationship happening, because you're like, the power dynamics are a little off, and I mean we're sort of led to believe that it's brought up a bunch of times, even though she still has her own apartment in granted village, but she's a shop girl. She's young, she can't really afford to pursue her passion. Like she's in a very very different position as Carol. And and I don't know, I was trying to picture movies with I mean, there's a ton of movies about hetero relationships where there's a man who's much older wooing a much younger woman, and this is not that movie, but there are elements of that where it's like that should have been a discussion. And I feel like Abbey is the only one who really brings it up. Is like she's so like she is the most grounded, like she's fucking great. But I will say with Carol Terrez, because I did watch it through a twenty nineteen lens, it's like a hundred as far as I could tell, it's fully consent based, like she she's asking aggressively, but she doesn't do anything without being like is this okay? Would you like to do this? Like blah blah blah. And with the sex scene, it's like Terres is the one who's like taking and it's like never implied that they would have any reason to feel unsafe around each other too, which is like makes a huge difference. And as far as I could tell, Carol never holds anything over to res in terms of like, well I have more money than you, or I'm like like she never like uses that like the imbalance of power to her advantage. As far as I could it just kind of unacknowledged. It's just like a thing that exists, right, I don't know. It would just be nice to see more representation in mainstream movies of queer women where it wasn't such an imbalance of power. It would be nice to see a movie about two queer women where no one has to make a huge sacrifice. You know. It would be nice to see more queer women of color. It would be nice to see more you know, trans and non binary people in mainstream movie. And I think that I've see people asking for a lot on on queer Twitter, as it were, is like, hey, can we get more movies where both women are already out and that's not like realizing or comic terms is not an element of the plot um And I think that would be great that please. Indeed, I wanted to talk about how, just briefly about how the men are kind of presenting in this movie because each and every single male character who we get to know even the slightest bit is horrible. Eric I kind of appreciated how the worst they were. I mean there was I don't know, yeah, what did everyone think about the men? I just I was just like, yeah, fine, Mr Football is mad. He what he's like often drunk, He's usually full of rage and jealousy. He's very spiteful when it comes to a bunch drunkenly following I think one of the things and I and I am obviously the minority in those, but I really like Kyle Chandler as a writer. And I also loved Friday. It's like, yes, it's so good if if anybody hasn't seen it water and like I hate football, So it's not it's not about that anyway, but partly where I think like the disservice to the men in this movie, and also just honestly the story in this movie is that we don't get to see even a flashback and even in anything, any part of Carol and Harje's relationships, so like it is very difficult, I think, to imagine those two people being together other than they're both wealthy and good looking. I guess, like I mean, really, it's very difficult to imagine it because we see so little of any of the love left between them, and I don't know I would have liked to see because she says, like her big last line is she's leaving that meeting or with the loyal like the best best scene in the movie, I think, but the exact perfect. She's so good, but like she says something, you know, uh, then it will get ugly or it'll get ugly and we're not ugly people or something like that. It's like it's some something along those lines, and I guess I just wanted to be like, wow, I would have really liked to see him not being ugly then at some point or and like some semblance of like real good guy nous about him that I can imagine, he asked, but isn't there because you can see his face and he seems to be coming to an understanding or he he seems to be like, you're right, Carol, like but that's not who he understood him to be previously he was completely like bullheaded, and I kind of do I have sort of have a different take again, Carol Apologist over here. But I well, what I love about all the men in this movie is they're like so oh fish, which to me is like hilarious, like they all fall down and something like um. But I and I'm framing it in that era. I don't think either of those guys are like Richard's a dick, But I don't think either of those guys are like super bad guys, Like I think this is a guy who, like his wife, has had at least one affair that he knows about, Like this is a guy he never I feel like in a different movie, we definitely would have gone like a smack or like a puncher, because it's the guys drunk and I remember watching it originally that's where I thought that was going. But he's the one who falls down, like he's definitely too handsome with her, But I don't. I think he is shown to be like this old fish, bumbling like this isn't how this is supposed to work kind of guy. But I don't think he's evil, even Richard. I don't think it is like terrible, Like I love that line where he's like you made me buy tickets, Like he's this dude it's like, what the fuck, Like we were thick the moment that I did really like, I was like, oh that she kind of did him dirty on that one where he was yeah, because she she's been saving up money to go on vacation with him, and she's like, actually, I just met this really kind of suck, like I do. Actually, And I I often am the one who's feeling bad for men in queer movies because sometimes I do think, especially in lesbian films, they get like the short end of the stick and are shown to be just like these like bumbling idiot oaths like whatever. And I'm like, and especially as like the resident bisexual in the room, I'm like, come on, not all guys are like yeah, like like this, you know, and it actually And I also think that stories are more interesting when you have more realistic portrayals of characters, so that people aren't painted as just bad or good and there is a little bit more ambiguity, because it makes it more difficult for the characters to make decisions when you know you're dealing with two good people versus one good and one bad. You know. Um, So I think that they could have done a little bit better of a job with the men in this making them slightly more multidimensional. The one guy who I really liked, the guy with the accent who like, yeah, the one who tries to Danny's like the one, but of course because he's like the film kid, you know what I mean, like production, I don't think we see enough that really exists in real life where it's like the guy who's into the girl and like tries to kiss her, and then it's like, oh my bad, you're queer, you're not into it, Like no, I'm going to be your best friend and help you paint your partner. And he's just like so chilling cool, and he's like, I think you really liked this lady, and she's like, no, I don't. And if he's like come on, girl, he's like a really good dad. But also he knew that she had a boyfriend, Richard at the time and tried to kiss her. Yeah, he's he's shy friends and to like yeah, but I think once he realizes, like, and that's a problem in and of itself, he should treat her like a person, even if she's straight and not into him. But at least once that guy realizes like, oh, she's not into it. He's not like but I forever Like he's like he helps her get a job at the time, Yeah, yeah, he's he does come through for her quite a bit, that he should have tried to kiss her appropriately fair. I even afterwards was like, wait, does she have a boyfriend? Because she makes so like blase and noncommittal about Richard that like he probably is like are they even dating? I mean, I, as the audience member, was like, are they even dating? Richard? Thinking that they're dating, which totally happened, you know, yeah, yeah, were You're just like are you I don't Yeah. Something about the Harsh character that I think that that, again was a weird adaptation thing because as far as I can tell, in the book, he has mentioned, but he's barely in it. He's not a main character at all. So he his character's part was really beefed up for the movie. And I mean, it's it's weird. It's kind of like what everyone was saying. It seems like the fact he's not like a monster out right. But I don't, like, I don't understand why as much as I love Mr Football's pratfalls and being like why you not love me no more? Like being pissed and litigious whatever male villain tropes are employed there. I like you very if you're gonna like beef up that part and you want to make it like a nuance complicated movie, show that he's heartbroken, show that he's confused, like show that he doesn't like in less of a broad strokes way, because that almost felt like out of step with what the movie was trying to do with different relationships, where like Caroline Abbey's friendship is so nuanced and subtle and cool, and like most of the ways that people relate in this movie seemed to be going for that subtlety. But it's weird, like hardest character is like kind of broad for this movie where he's just like mad alcoholic husband, And I mean, I don't even know where I fall on it, because I'm like, I mean, I just if they were going to use him on screen that much, I wish it had been in a way that was a little more nuanced in servicing the story instead of just him becoming a litigious villain. Yeah, I agree with, especially if she's going to suggest at the end that that's not who he is deep down. And yeah, like you were saying Nichols is like, well, we've only seen him drunk and angry. Yeah, And I mean, like I get the it seems as though what they were going for maybe um with the men in these women's lives, right, So, Richard and Hard is that when men are heartbroken, they get angry, like and that is how they deal with being heartbroken is through anger and not vulnerability. I mean because like he shows, Hard shows up at Abbey's and like when he has nothing left to say, when Abbey's like stone walled him and been like she's not here, and he's like, but I love her, and she's like, I can't help you with that. And I think that those simple two lines say everything about the men in this movie in so many ways, where it's like it is not the women's responsibility to cater to the men's feelings, you know, like you guys have fallen in love of your own accord. Sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't, and we can apologize for the things where we legitimately are wrong and have hurt you, but also then like it's up to you to be a big boy and take care of yourself without being destructive. And I think both of those men are coming from a point of view where they're like if A, then B. They're like, well, if I love you, then that you must like those guys gets a feeling of ownership and entitlement. And I mean, in the nineteen fifties speak about an era where men did not know how to process their feelings, like we're not encouraged to. I mean, that's not even their fault entirely, you know, they were not That was weakness. So yeah, iusly, I wish it were a little clearer that. Like in the book, it seems like it's clearer that the whatever villain, if there is a villain of this story, is the culture that they're living in. It doesn't allow them to be here they are. But in this movie, I feel like they almost take the shortcut of being like it's the guys. That's a great point. It's such an insular movie. It's one of those movies where it's like is this a stage flight where it's just like you don't really get a sense of the outside world at all. It's like, that's my ride, I got to ride a giant drama. Like everything that we're saying about, oh at that time, it's just because we know that, Like you don't see a lot of like the outside world pressuring this and that it's like we're inferring that because all of us know what it was like to be queer in ninety But you're right that it's it is one of those super insular movies where we're just really seeing the characters we're seeing and there's not a lot of like different people running around being like I don't like Wars and then they just like cross the street and we never see him again. People just did that same players talking about how they don't like Career Evil. Um, it is basically just like it's a it's a close knit sort of film. So everything that that we've been saying about, like oh, the time period and stuff, we're not really shown that. We just we know that or we hear also like everybody in this film has extremely fine tuned gaitar, which I like don't understand. I mean, Richard, like Richard has really no reason to believe that Terres has a rush on Carol, but he like picks it up on it right away, says it like it's not a thing, you know, like it is. It is very weird. And then like like every random lesbian the trees runs into is like staring at her from across the room because they're all like I smell you, like like random, oh my god, I know they clogged her, like yeah yeah. And also everybody who has gaydar just stairs like is like just blatantly there that's my move. But I mean it's it is a little bit. It's a little silly and on the nose obviously, but also because like there was a whole code. It was like the handkerchief road I think yeah for gay men where you would like wear a certain color handkerchief in your back pocket to show the a you were queer, but like be what like type of queer you are and what you were into so other men could pick up on it. So it's like guys, like, if gaydar were really as good as it's shown in Carol, no one would have needed the handkerchief coat. It's just it was a little we're gonna have to develop it them because they're clothes don't have pockets that the glass ceiling. It was like, we simply cannot carry the unfair standards of that are placed on women. Did you ever have this, uh that system in high school where the color of like rubber bracelet you were wearing was like indicative of whether you were a virgin or not. That was a big thing I heard about that. I feel like that was I thought that was like an urban legend, but maybe not like that was a news story where they're like, they're called bracelets kids. There was I would wear. I would wear a red bracelet my software, which you should never wear the braislet that means you're a virgin. But I didn't wear that. And then I, even when I was still a virgin, I swapped it out because I'm like and then every day I would look at my bracelet and be like, wow, that's so intensive. There was. There was an intense bracest when I was in high school. I uh, the cartilage of my right ear pierce and everyone's like, if you get your right your pierce, that means you're gay. And that's like what, I've never heard that before. But I also didn't care. I was like, I don't give a funk what people think my sexuality is. But um, yes, there's been codes. I guess what I enjoyed about this movie because a lot of the the tension does end up because there's no sort of external cultural tension in terms of like society hate square people in this movie that we see the tension then derives from largely the male characters in the movie and the fact that they're I mean, and this is not to say that all men are horrible, but since most movies are about how awesome men are and how freaking cool they are, and also movies where men are the focus, if there is a female character, she's often presented as an obstacle in some way, much of the way men are presented as obstacles in this movie. So it was kind of nice to see that switch, sure, but I like, yeah, I don't know. It's like, at the end of I'm just going to be split on on this because in one way, I'm like, it's kind of lazy movie shorthand to just be like, this character symbolizes all oppression everywhere and most people are actually really chill. But it's also like, I I don't dislike the man Haiti tropes that are employed by this movie through those characters because you're like, well, you don't really get to see them very much. So yeah, I think for me, I wrote, at times it's fun and at other times devastating and uncomfortable to see men constantly barking up the wrong treeze in this movie that way generally generally, even like that's it is that you go back and forth and be like, ha, that's funny to be like, I don't feel good. Richard especially is such a dufe Like that part where Carol is picking up Terres and Richard's all like, Richard, hard not to meet you, and and Carols like, oh, speaks very highly of you, and he's like, oh, well that's swell, and he's immediately like talking about a beard. Yeah, he is the guy from Obvious Child too, Yeah, like obscured by a hat. For most of time, that's all I can see in those is like that, and the guy from Girls, and I'm like perfect casting truly, Yeah, he's peaked casting. Yeah. Here's something we don't often see is women eating in a movie which we see women eat quite a bit, and we also see women driving in a way that it's not like them, like I just accidentally got on the freeway and I'm gonna crash, So I think it's not like correct exactly. This movie normalizes period peace, that's right. Yeah, So it normalizes women driving and eating. So that's my hot take. Another point I saw being made about this. It was like the cinematography, which we've I mean, it is so beautiful that you're sleeping, but the like absence of perceived male gaze this movie, which is funny because it's the cinematographer is a man. As the director, Yeah, Edward Edward Lachman, who has a pretty stellar record of removing or at least I don't know, compartmentalizing the male gaze for the movies he's worked on. He also did the He did other Todd Haynes movies. He did Far from Heaven Um, he did the Virgin Suicides. He did a bunch of like very female focused movies that concerned like women's bodies. And I don't know, I mean did that. I mean that worked for me. I thought it was very There is nothing that I felt was like objectifying or like overly you know, like sexualizing women. You know, we see the sex scene, but it felt very tastefully done. Yeah, I loved it. And you know how you were saying, like, oh, you see in the car, like the random shot of the steering wheel or like that kind of thing. I think and again I haven't read the book, but I know that the book it's based on is it's the third person, but it's all from her as this point of view, and I think that this movie is like shot almost entirely. Certainly any scenes she's in I read as her point of view, which is why I think it's like you get these little chunks of like she's looking at like there's a lot of like Cate Blanchet's mouth, Like she's looking at her lips, or she's looking at her hand. Are these things which to me I read as her like sort of discovering her attraction for her. But yeah, I thought it did a great job as being like, this is what this woman's experience is, and you're seeing like little glimpses of it. And the color palette was really reflective of that too, because it was largely red and green, which also was helpful because it was around Christmas time, so you had that, but it was like red, green and gold sometimes as well, but like red and green were primary, and Cate blanche it was like almost always wearing something red um and certainly in the first half of the movie when like Ruoney mar Is discovering her um and then like Abby and Rooney Mara and and then sometimes Cape Blanchet two are often wearing green or are are framed in green. So for you know whatever, more of like what is it like a obsession or there's like but there's a danger Green is also a danger color, yeah, to which I think was pretty cool. Like when you see Abby pull up and she's got the green on, and you're like, oh, danger because really she does represent like a very dangerous part of Cape Blanchet's life. Yeah, So yeah, anyway, hopefully, but I mean, yeah, the lack of male gay is from the cinematographer. The director is a man, Todd Haynes, but he's considered, you know, he's an out gay director. He's considered a pioneer of the new queer cinema movement that emerged in the early nineties. Um, the screenwriter is a queer woman. A lot of the producers are women, also Harvey and Bob Weinstein. Oops, but when you have a movie that's coming largely from either a female or queer perspective or both, we're not surprised that it's handled a bit better. And and then adapting from from a book that was also written by a queer woman, where like, we have so many examples I always like jumped straight to carry of, like, why is this like very famous movie depicting women so poorly? It's oh, because uh straight man was writing about teenage girls, and that was adapted by uh screenwriter who is a straight man writing about teenage girls seen through the lens of a straight man leering at teenage girls, And that's why it's fucked up like this, this movie manages to more or less avoid most of that. And and then I think sort of with the cinematography, they it's like if you had to choose male cinematographer, I mean I would personally be like, oh, wouldn't it have been great if there was a female cinematoxxer in this um or a queer female cinematographer. But if if there had to be a man, this seems like this was the man for that job. So that's how I felt about the director too. Yeah. Yeah, And it also took so long for this movie to get made. It took twenty almost twenty years. Yeah, the film rights were required in it had been in development since nine seven was the first Titanic years I know. And instead they're released in the Daddy's Home Year, so that yeah, I mean, it took so long to get the movie funded properly, to get the right names attached, and just too, I think, just the matter of waiting it for it to seem like a quote unquote safe movie to have a fairly wide release, and so you know, it's it's impressive that it ended up the way it did and that it happened at all. I mean, that's eighteen years waiting to make a queer like, it's crazy. I read on IMDb that at some point it was like they were maybe going to try to do it like in the nineties sixties and who not Rita Hayworth, Like someone was attached, but that was gonna be a huge thing. And then I read and this sounds like a sketch, but I read that a treatment was written where the name and gender were changed and it was Carl and it was and I was like, because kin edit IMDb. So I was like, I need to do more research on this, but I want to believe that happened, because that fucking table that it would have been turned into a gay mail story or a heater and it was just like a treatment that was written and like this and it never went But I'm like, how did someone spent time? What would that story even be? And if Carols boring would have been unwatchable. But that ex told me when I read that, I honestly I believe I believe it. I thought it's true. I want to be the internew had to write coverage on the treadman of carl Or or the man that had to confidently pitch it to Patricia Highsmith and be like, listen, I love what you're doing. I see what you're doing. What about Coral. She just throws the snail at him. It's like, get out of my office. One of them as well, Hey, do you think this movie passes the Bechdel test or not? What does? Very much? I don't think there's a single scene of two men talking without a woman there. I was. I was half paying attention for that. So there's scenes with multiple men in the room, but there's always, at least I think there's always a woman involved. Yeah, and then yeah, there's a lot of different combinations of characters talking the past, the test between Caroline Tarez, between Caroline Abbey, Abbey and Tarez, So yeah, you see a lot of different combinations of lots of options for scene study class indeed, because that's like what the Bectel test means to me in my life. It's like going back to college and being like, why can't have found any scenes with two girls to work on? And you're like, because acting school is you know women. Anyway, it's great, we have to use the three guys over and over and over again in class because there are no scenes for all of us. This is also another fairly rare example of a movie that passes the Vito Russo test. And if you're not familiar with that, what that is, listeners. It is a test that requires that a film must contain a character who is identifiably lgbt Q. Plus the character must not solely or predominantly be defined by their sexual orientation or gender identity. So, in other words, they need to be made up of the same sort of like unique character traits that are commonly used to differentiate straight characters from one another. And Cape Blanchet right, photographer, she's a photographer, uh, And the queer character must be tied into the plot in such a way that their removal from the story would have a significant impact. So basically they just matter. God, although I do, I mean Nicole. I think that it was really interesting that how like there is no Bectel like or Bechtel Wallace test for queer women, that she is so defined by her relationship, which I agree is very first relationship e and like, you know, just thinking about anyone's first relationship is cringe e U. But that that is like a good like they I'm glad that they're like, oh, she also has you know, like she has this aspiration. She will not advocate for herself for it, and she's not very good, but you know she's she's going for it, getting better, she's better. But it's also like the one moment where I really were I was like, I'll funk all this, like when I because because I was like, because I in my head, I was like, well I did give her photography, I guess, even though she seems only mildly passionate about it. Um Like the one moment where it really all came crashing down is when what's his name, her friend Danny is helping her paint and he's like, you really should do a show and says it twice, and she's not only like oh no, you know I'm not really good. She's like no, and you're like, why are you so Like she's like I don't want to know, and you're like, okay, so I guess you don't care that it happens off screen, but at some point she does, you know, but it happens. She's also just painting. Did you guys noticed that one? You've never you know, sweetheart, It's so funny to see actor like actors betray their richness on screen and just like, that's what are you doing? Yes? Anyways, I I do agree that, like, definitely one care during this movie is more defined by a romantic relationship than Yes, let's write the movie on our nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on its portrayal and treatment of women, I think I'm going to give it a four. It's nice that you have a story about queer women. They are certainly the focus, they are driving the narrative. The one character, as we've discussed, is not that well defined and characterized, but you know, it's it's still better than most of the female characters we see in any given movie. So there's that. Um, it is such a white movie. It is extraordinarily white, and it does take place in New York for most of it, so there's really not And it's like, I it always drives us anytime New York is in a movie and everyone in New York is white, and then people are like it's a buried piece. You're just like, no, you're a director, you're a writer, like you could you can include people. Especially when she's at that party at like her friend Phil's Plight. I was watching the people on the street walking by, was like, is one of them not going to be? And I was like, they're the party And then also at the Bloomingdale's type place too, like why not. Yeah, there aren't that many crowd scenes, but the ones that are still almost entirely white people, there could have been opportunity, Yes, definitely. So yeah, it's it could have been better representation wise, but it's a step in the right direction. You know, we talked about how few mainstream movies there are about queer people, and you know, hopefully this at least in some way helped pave the way for more to be seen down the road, because the more we see, the more it's normalized, and more representation is what we're always striving. Four. So I'm gonna say, four nipples, and I will give two to Kate Blanchet. I will give to to Rooney Mar's performance in another movie. Yeah yeah, all right, great, Wow, So I do truly like her. I'm so on the fence about so many elements. I'm also going to go with four, uh for for many of the same reasons. I mean, it's just it is in spite of sort of the the stuff that we've unpacked as being either like a little off or just straight up confusing, it is I think, you know, it's generally great that this movie because especially and this is like something we didn't we don't really talk about a lot, but the fan base of this movie has grown so much since it's been available on Netflix. And I was there was like a long piece reported in Them a couple of months ago about the huge young fan base that Carol has built um since being on Netflix. And just not only is like representation important important, but like accessibility uh two, movies like this are so important because this is an art house movie and you know, mostly the majority of people at this table did not see it, uh in in small you know, movie theaters. In so the fact that it's available to young people and too. I mean to everyone, Um, if if you have you know, your excess Netflix password is a really cool thing. And and so in spite of its shortcomings, I'm glad that it's uh, it exists, and that it's accessible, and that it, for the most part, you know, was adapted responsibly and by the right people. So I'll go for as well. I'll give to to Kate Blanchett. I'm gonna give my other two to Abby. Oh yeah, yeah, I would say four is well. I mean my my issues with Rooney Mara. No, I'm gonna three. I don't even get name and dropped it because I started thinking about it more and I was like, I can't can't. Um, yeah, I mean to definitely the Cate Blanchet always maybe all three no, but one to one to Abby. Um. And I agree with everything that that you guys have said. I don't even have much more to add. Um. I just simply wish that Rooney Mara's character had been more than a blank slate who is imprinted upon by the one person that she's attracted to. So that's all I love this movie. I'm not awesome at Separate. I'm not the best of being objective when I really love something, and I recognize that about myself. I feel like going into this, I maybe would have said four and a half, but I after hearing all this, I am going to say for I barely had an issue with with Rooney Mara's character. May be reading it in terms of like coming into contact with so many women who are first coming out. I was looking at it through that kind of a lens and being like, oh, I bet if we saw this character a year from now, like she would be more filled in. But again, yeah, it's true that that is that's my brain screenwriting and directing and stuff, and I respect that. Um. When I love this movie and I do think it's super hot, and I will not apologize for that, I will give my nipples. I will give one to Cape Blanchet, one to Ruoney Mara, and then, even though she's not in this movie, I'm giving to to racial Advice just because she was my girlfriend and I love her just because her presence is leaning over our conversation and I would like to throw her some nipples. We'll have to get the both of you back on to do the favorite. I love like, I love, love, love love love that movie just really quick I think you know and I know that we have all had different takes on Mr Football in this movie. Consider Alfred Molina in that part playing Cape Lunch's husband. I'm horny. Although maybe they just needed them to not have as much chemistry and so that's why Alfred Millina couldn't do it. Probably the chart with everyone sure, how many nipples does three D snails have? Oh god, let me look, okay, do zero? Just because there were no nipples besides hers ever in that apartment? Like it feels like with three hundred snails, Like snails do not have nipples. So I can tell you that, anybody, how do you get a girl back to you? The keys in the door? You're like, oh, one one thing before I should tell you? The Google results for do snails have nipples? Are wild? I don't recommend them. Well, thank you so much. Right on that note, Um, where where can we find you? Online? Plug away? I am at Nicole Patient on Twitter and Instagram. I am at Lauren Flans on Twitter. Um, that's the best Lauren underscore Flans on Instagram. But I'm not on Instagram. Not Lauren's a Twitter Twitter person on a Twitter person and our podcast is at Coming Out Pod on Twitter and Instagram. Give it a listen wherever you find podcast. Thank you guys so much for having us all so much fun. Thank you for being here. You can follow us on the social media platforms at Bechdel Cast. We've got our Matreon aka Patreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes Can't go Wrong, uh so. And and this month on the Patreon we're doing uh Knocked Up and Obvious Child speaking to Jake Lacey Heavy Mup on the past. Yes it's pregnancy June on the Matreon inspiring uh so. So. You can check us out there. We have our merch store at t public dot com slash the Bechdel Cast. We're getting some new designs in there soon, but you can get your Feminism is the Law Now shirt. Also for Pride, queer icon icon, non binary icon there we've got We've got them all. Check out the store, um and we'll talk to you. Yeah, yes, see you later. Bye. By Football