Death Becomes Her

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Speaker 1: On the bed Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our podcast about yeah movie and an intersectional look at our favorite movies and your favorite movies. Not always our favorite movies. Sometimes movies we hate, these movies we hate, other times movies we loved, but not this one, not today's movies. Okay, So we are so um. Members of our patreon ak Matreon will recognize this as a previous Matreon released episode. We are unlocking an episode to get you all hyped up for horror in October this year. So we're unlocking our Death Becomes Her episode. And one of the reasons we're doing that because we have been really busting our asses getting the horror movies together for this year and it's gonna be an amazing October. We've got the Descent, We've got us, We've got a girl walks home alone at night. We've got what's the fourth way pans Labyrinths Hans Labyrinthe. Yeah, there. We we have an amazing October lined up for you, mostly directors we haven't covered before, so look forward to that. And this is just a fun ass episode, yes, and one of our shorter ones. We've been releasing like two hour episodes lately, and this one clocks in pretty pretty short start. To give ourselves too much of a pat on the back, but UM listeners will know we we live in southern California and the air is batteries. So the fact that we are recording two episodes that have enough you know, it's it's it's it's a miracle. It's a miracle that we're still producing a podcast in this economy. Can you imagine? Um. So, so we are unlocking a Matren episode today, but as an extra treat for our matrons, UM who if you're already a member or if you don't know, our Matreon gives you two bonus episodes a month with just Caitlin and myself talking about movies on a weird theme that we pick that never makes sense. Weird theme, you mean, amazing, incredible, outstanding theme that everybody loves all the time right now, it's it September, which is uh females driven sports movies with it in the title. That's your name for it. I My favorite for it is sport Timber, which is the same thing, female driven sports movies with it in the title, but stick it in with it. But in any case, what we for five bucks a month you can get all of those episodes. There's I think almost eighty bonus full length bonus episodes in our Matreon at this point, and this is only one. This one of the first ones we've ever unlocked, but for a bonus. On top of the bonus for our matrons. This month, we're also going to be unlocking our Titanic live read that we did to benefit Junior High l A last month. Um one of I think the Collapse of the Century, some of your favorite guests and us reading the entire script from Titanic. It's it's four hours long, so long, it's longer than the movie. Guests like Princess Weeks who was on the show just last week, Maggie May Fish, Lindsay Ellis, Knese Mobley who's going to be on the show next week. There's just so many wonderful guests and more, and so we'll be unlocking that for our matrons and uh, one last plug before we get into the show. We had so much fun doing a live read with with everybody, and I think it was over three hundred listeners that were with us that night, watching and like interacting with us live. We're going to be doing it again next Friday, September for the movie Wait for It Twice live, we're doing live reading of Twilight. I like to call it a live reading slash roasting, a live blood sucking to celebrate Robert Pattinson's recovery from COVID nineteen. We're reading Twilight, um no, but we we are. We are going to be reading it um Tickets will be live today or tomorrow, so keep your eye on our social media for that. There's going to be a donation based way to do it because we are benefiting a local candidate that we are really excited about in our area named Fatima Ichball Zubert. She is running for a state representative against an incumbent cop and she's amazing and we love her so much. So we're will be listing information on how to get access to that broadcast, which will be on the um on our social media basic you'll donate to Fatima, send us the receipt, we'll get you the link. It's easy. And you know we're gonna be I'm gonna be Edward, Caitlin's gonna be bela it is what it is. I can't believe. I'm going to buy a wig, I think. And our guests are going to be on a hose ni A, Sharine, Lana, Unice, Karama, Danqua and uh future guests on the show, Jess Merwin. So it is going to be simply a time so we will be posting about it incessantly, but we wanted to let you know about it now, so yeah, keep your eye over that, indeed. And then one last thing about this episode in particular, since we we recorded it, we released it about a year ago. If I'm not mistaken, believe it's for last yes. So you might have noticed in recent months we're on an ongoing pursuit and effort to eliminate any language more vocabulary that is able list and disparaging of mental illness. And this is we're talking like pretty common stuff that is still very widely used. Expressions like and I'm going to say them to let you know, maybe what you should also try to eliminate from your vocabulary. Vocabulary so things like that's crazy or that was insane, or even like that's so dumb, things like that. Yeah, the phrase stupid as well. There there's so many common phrases that are rooted in just bigoted statements against those experiencing mental illness and those with disabilities. Yeah, we we've kind of been on an ongoing education process for ourselves as well. Clearly this is stuff we've learned uh and begun implementing into our lives in the last year, So we a We're also going to include a link in our description where you can learn more about that and more about um, the origin of these common phrases that are actively harmful. Yes, that said, we wanted to acknowledge that because there are a few uses of language like this in the episode, because it was prior to us being aware of this, So do a heads up for that. And with that, I guess let's get into Death Becomes Her the best body horror movie of all time. Yeah, let's drink our potions that will make us live forever but also crumble And did you know women's bodies are terrifying. That's what I learned from this movie. We talked about it in the episode. But we but if this is your first episode of the Becktel Cast, welcome. Uh. We look at movies that have had an impact on the world, using intersexual feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as a jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, I don't remember what the Betel test is. Did you remind me? You say that as a joke. But I honestly, in the past, like a couple of weeks especially, I'm really like, my memory doesn't work anymore. I couldn't. I can't remember there's batteries in the air that we're breathing battery acid. Like it's horrible. I I don't like, I couldn't. I'm off topic already. But like I when this maybe passes the Bechdel test. But I was like trying to think of my stand up jokes recently, and I'm like, I can't remember any of my stand up jokes. I can't remember the names of places I used to go, Like, I, yeah it, yeah, I was remember. I was like, oh yeah, ideally, best case scenario, well, we will have to remember our jokes at some point, um terrifying. No, yeah, I've also been truly, I mean especially like extra shout out and love to all of our listeners on the American West Coast because it's it's tough right now and if you're able to do mutual aid throughout this, uh please do. But we're just just it's really the worst of times. I can't remember. I can't. I was like, I, um, you want a fun little anecdote before we told them what the Bechtel test is if you're squeamish, maybe fast forward fifteen seconds. I was walking to seven eleven yesterday, bravely went outside and I got so nauseated by the air that I threw up in my little mask. Had to turn around. Oh no, it's uh sorry god. Yeah, I've been having a NonStop headache for probably the past like six days now. It's really awful. It's bad. Um, So what is the pie test? And I think all of that puking in your mask passes the buckel totally past the backdel past. So that's that's another example of it. It is, you know, not it's a flawed metric. Um, but yes, that whole conversation I believe past the Bechtel test because of the Bechtel Test is a media metric originally developed and created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it requires that. For our purposes, we have made some adjustments to the tests also another recent development of ours um but our newest version of the test is two people of any marginalized gender must have names, must speak to each other about something other than a sisman. So that is the test test. It's complicated. So we use that to inspire the premise of the show and then we dive into a much deeper conversation about representation in intersectionality and inclusivity and uh, you know, Goldi Han and Meryl streep at different at different times. So yes, we're we're excited to share this episode. Would we hope you enjoy it? And a reminder if you enjoyed these episodes with just being Caitlin, it's a little looser we're goofing around. Or if you're just running out of episodes of the Battle cast on our main feed, head over to the Matreon five bucks a month to bonus episodes, and as of today, you can watch the Titanic stream as well, so enjoy the rest of the episode. Enjoy the Bell cast. Jamie, what's your history with the film? Hadn't seen it? What about you? I had only seen it for the first time about a year ago. It was not at all on my radar until we started the podcast and started getting requested him. Yeah, as I I I and I intentionally did not do a ton of research going into the viewing experience, which I'm glad because it is such a wild ride. What a wild ride, indeed. But yeah, I saw it. I watched it about a year ago, and then we just rewatched it together and now we're ready to talk about it. I'm excited. There's a there's there's a lot going on here. Some of it. I love some of it. You know, we just have to. That's why we have the podcast, and it's it's a beloved movie. It's got a cult following. What a roller coaster the film. It is, so the story, if I may please do, thank you so much. We meet Madeline Ashton Meryl Street. Welcome, We take a hard left, take a car to Meryl Street. One of our weaker persistent jokes, I disagree you're right, you're right, you're right. When you're right, you're right. Um. She is an actor, a musical theater performer. Um. But people don't like her anymore because they think she is old and has lost her touch. But there is one person who does still love her, and that is Ernest Menville. Bruce Willis's character is a great Bruce Willis the role of a lifetime. I would say, oh yeah. He is a cosmetic surgeon. And the fiance of Helen Sharp, which is Goldie Hawn, who is a front of me of Madeleine's. She's a writer. She's a writer, which Madeleine really undermined. She's like, are you still doing that writing thing right? Which is personally triggering. Sure, and then Helen's all like, oh my god, Ernest, you don't like Madeleine, do you? And He's like, no, I have no interest in her whatsoever. Cutt, I'm getting married. This is the campiest movie with a fifty five million dollar budget that's ever been filmed. It's well, okay, I would welcome contenders and consume them happily. Sure, this is a very expensive camp movie. Right. Then we cut to seven years later and Helen has a wait and she is now a crazy cat lady. She's evicted. Classic trope. Oh yeah, we'll talk about it. She is evicted from her apartment, she's institutionalized, and she's completely obsessed with Madeline Ashton's demise. Right and then she and then we found flash forward seven years again. Right and Madeleine and Ernest's marriage is not healthy. He's an alcoholic. He is no longer a plastic surgeon, at least like not for living people. He instead now makes corpses look presentable for their funerals. Ya. Then, Madeleine receives an invitation from Helen for Helen's book party, and Madeline wants to look her best for the event, so she goes in for a treatment to get rejuvenated, and a guy there tells Madeleine about Lisel von Ruman ak Isabella. She can help, but he is weird, so Madeleine ignores him. Then she goes to Helen's event, and surprise, Goldie Hawn has taken off the fat suit and she is a successful writer. And Madeleine is not handling this well, so she decides to go to Lisa von Ruman's place castle and she sells Madeleine a potion that will reverse the aging process, and it works, and her body tightens up and her face looks younger in some of them. Us. I mean, there's so much I think spectacular body horror in this movie, and uh, this is just the beginning. Meanwhile, Helen has gone to Earnest to seduce him and sabotage his relationship with Madeline, and she proposes a plan where they drug and kill Madeleine but make it look like an accident, and Madeleine returns home and she and Ernest get into an argument and then he pushes her down the stairs. And I truly I found and you know that I need to watch this movie more. But I found the moment where Meryl Streep is rocking back and forth defying gravity on the stairs and we're like, is she's going to fall or not to be the most profound moment of the movie, because I think this movie basically boils down to women versus the forces of gravity over time, because it is that's a movie about aging, and like was because this is like a pretty solid creative team. I'm like, I wonder if someone was thinking that because it is just like women versus gravity is a central force in it. That's my little thought. What a brilliant thought, Jamie so much. I did my best on that one anyway. So yeah, they've gotten into an argument. Um, they're screaming at each other, they're calling each other nasty names. He is strangling her and then he pushes her down the stairs and she breaks her neck, and then Ernest calls Helen freaking out, and they're trying to figure out what to do. And as they're talking through it, uh, Madeleine gets up off the floor because she's taken this potion. She didn't die, even though her head is on backwards now right, which is not easy to look at. The whatever effects they did to accomplish that particular image is troubling and scary and weird. So we're being weirdly like diplomatic about it or like it is easy to view with your eyeball. It just isn't. I mean, they did the best with what they could in ninety what year was it too? Oh see, I think it looks like a little too close to real. This one an Academy Award for Visual Effects, did it? Really? It is the only thing it was nominated for it and it won. Wow, I know, which is really just a testament to and you know that that means not recent. Sure, I mean Zamachas is a visual effects king. I'll say it. I've seen back to she said it. I can't believe she finally said it. I mean, he's no James Cameron. But who's going on with this today? I missed the Matrion. It's well, it's been a really long time since we recorded a Matreon episode. I know, it's been really long since we haven't had a refer e in the room being like, wrap it up, idiots, it's good, it feels good. So Madeleine turns her head back around and then yes, She's like, Earnest, I need to see a doctor. So he takes her to the e R. But she doesn't have a heartbeat, and it turns out she is legally dead, but she's still awake and moving around and she seems alive because of this potion. But Earnest, being the doctor science man that he is, thinks that this is a cosmic sign that they should be together after all, which is confusing. You know, No, I mean, he's he's an interesting I'm like, I'm not quite sure what the comments on masculinity is there, but there but it's something sure true tv D and he takes her home and tries to fix up her broken body, but Helen comes back over and Madeleine overhears her talking to Earnest about their plan to kill her, so Madeleine takes a rifle and shoots Helen with it, but surprise, Hell has also taken Liesel von Rumans potion, so she doesn't die, even though she has a huge gaping hole in her mid section right, and then she and Madeleine start physically fighting each other. They're hitting each other's shovels, but then they realize there's no point in that because neither of them can be injured or die. And then they get to a point where they both admit their wrongdoings and apologize for hurting each other in the past. Uh and then they make Ernest fix them up, but he's like, I'll do it, but then I'm going to leave forever after that and you'll never see me again. But then they worry. They're like ship, like, we're gonna need touch ups, Like what if it rains and he's not going to live forever and we need him around. So they decide to take him to Leesl's and make him drink the potion to right, there's a lot of intermittent violence and this will have to backtrack to and they know he won't go willingly, so they first try to drug him. That doesn't work, and then they knock him out and take him to Lisl's castle. She almost succeeds in convincing Earnest to drink the potion, but at the last minute he's like, wait a minute, I don't want to live forever. That sounds awful, and then he gets away. He's not wrong, and then Madeleine and Helen spot him and chase after him through this like ball that Lisel's throwing all of her clients, of whom include Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, and Andy Warhol ha ha funny. So he's trying to escape via the roof Earnest is and he slips and falls and he's dangling there and he's about to fall to his death, and Madeline and Helen are like, oh, man, you got to take the potion because then if you fall, you won't die. But he refuses and then he falls, but he lands in a swimming pool, so he lives. And then he finally gets away and Madeline and Helen are like, well, I guess we'll just have to take care of each other and paint each other's asses. I kind of like that, so did I. I know, I'm just like man, that is kind of like, you know, for some of us being toxic, it's nice to be toxic and also not alone. That's true. They just start doomed to an eternity of toxic friendship together. And then we cut to thirty seven years later, which let me do the math here, because the movie starts when it's ninety eight, and then seven years passed, and then seven more years passed, and then thirty seven years passed, putting us at ten years from now. So Bruce Willis has ten years left to live. Let's be very careful. But it has been said, it wasn't not said diplomatic. Well, yeah, that's an official statement. Okay. So it's thirty seven years later. Madeline and Helen are at Ernest's funeral, but they're chipping, they're melting, they're falling apart, and then they fall down some stairs and break into bits, but they're still alive. In Helen's like, do you remember where you parked in the car? And then that's the end of the movie did it? Did It Do? And that's the whole thing. Yep, you know, I like the movie. It's very fun. It's so campy, it's fun with it. It's wild. Um let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back. So let's dive in. Yeah. Well, the first thing for me is that this movie, it seems like it is like trying to be a commentary on how society doesn't value older women. I totally agree with society doesn't tends not to find older women to be attractive. But I think it does not really go far enough because then the movie focuses on, uh, these two women who hate each other, and then they do end up finding a common ground, but really only because they have no other choice. This to me, it does feel like kind of like a swell to that we just happened to have covered a lot of movies that kind of fall into this category recently, but like a very earnest attempt to make a comment on something that the writers are not necessarily qualified to make. The comment to this movie is uh spoiler alert. As with most movies written by multiple men um and directed by and directed by Mr Zemecki himself. Um, yeah, I mean, this movie was written by David cope Um, who also was at least a co writer on Jurassic Park. Curtly does right vision impossible, snake eyes, don't know what that is. He's written a lot of damn movies, what I'm saying, as well as Martin Donovan, who is also a famous screenwriter. So it does seem like and based on the production history that we'll get into in Jamie's contact corner, this was a genuine attempt to make comment on women's aging by people who you know, couldn't really fully understand it themselves. And so I feel like, well, I don't feel like, you know what, make a declarative statement for once in your life, Jamie. I know based on watching the movie that even though I think that the criticism of you know how there's a huge stigma against women's aging is made in the movie, movie is also very much not above reducing an age woman's body to a cheap joke or a women's body in general, because there's a lot of issues with that shaming in this and there's like so it is like a weird back and forth and it is extremely campy, but that doesn't excuse it from anything of making like pretty solid foundational points about like society. We live in a society Caalen, right what, and society should not push women to the point of feeling like they have to go to, let's say, extreme measures to preserve their youth in order to function in society as they would like to. I like that foundational point is made, but the way that they choose to make it is kind of all over the place. And then the way they treat those two women after they have made this choice, yeah, does not bode well because basically what happens is that after they've both taken the potion to not only reverse the aging process but prevent them from ever dying, doom right, doom them to this weird morbid eternity of just falling apart, and well they it becomes extreme. But like, I feel like they're punished by wanting the well not like Okay, So foundationally we can't really put and much blame on Meryl Streeps or Goldie Hans's character for wanting to maintain their youth, just based on especially the early nineties culture that they're in for the majority of the movie. Sure, right, but the movie does punish them by condemning them to an eternity of body horse and then also turning those characters not really into villains, but the way they start behaving as soon as they've both died. I kind of love her. I mean I do. It's like very funny and like part of what I like about the movie, but also like, if we really sit down and look at it and think about it, we I think are meant to like very much. We'll see, Okay, we're working this out in real time. Okay, this is the matron. But I do feel like and we almost talked, we talked about this while we were watching the movie that I am all for seeing a toxic relationship between two women. I love it. I've taken part in them myself, like but but like truly like where we start, and even though I feel like it starts from a too heightened place, but where we start where you know one woman is jealous of another woman, which I feel like even we in the past have sometimes been like, oh, that's so tropy, which it can be, but I also think that there is certain stories where that works because that trope doesn't come from nowhere. It comes from I feel, and like I have felt in certain situations myself that you know, there is an increased capacity for professional especially where this seems to sort of start and then it gets personal but like a jealousy between women, because there's this perception and often a reality that there's only space for so many women in a place. So I think that it is a topic worth exploring, but these writers are just not equipped to do it, and they and I think it's so abruptly is like, oh, we don't really know how to explore this in an interesting or like a nuanced way at all, So let's just make it about boys, which is what it becomes about. And then it goes full trope territory of like damn, damn my boyfriend. So it kind of sucks because I think that, you know, the dynamics of a female friendship, especially a longstanding one like this, and the power dynamics that exists inside of it really interesting, and it's been done in really clever and cool ways, and just this this is a more kind of reductive version of it, although I mean hopefully it at at the time helped pave the way to more nuanced looks and stuff like that, but it does, I mean, it gets pretty reductive of like she still my boyfriend very quickly, because it takes the movie a really long time for the audience to understand why they don't like each other. Because we eventually understand that they are childhood friends or maybe like they were friends as teenagers or something like that, it's still pretty vague, yeah, and it takes a very long time for them to even talk about it. But then finally there is a reason that gets established to explain why they are friendemies, or at least why Helen hates Magdalene, and it's because Madeline kept stealing Helen's boyfriends, and I guess she was doing that to get back at Helen for calling her cheap, which I don't know if that means. We also don't really know what the context of that is, where it's, yeah, you're set up with a very vague my immediate read, but it's so vague that I feel like you can just project whatever you want onto. It was that like Helen's character was from like a family that didn't approve of Meryl's appearance, or maybe it was her socioeconomic background. It wasn't clear. The word cheap is loaded right exactly, So it's like is it a classist thing? Is like is she calling her or is it like she calling her like oh you're a cheap like hussy, which is in the yea ly at the beginning to what was it? I read it down it was like shameless, deep by princess lude and lusty. You're like, thank you so much? Right, so it's not even totally clear what she meant. But then Madeleine retaliates by stealing many of Helen's boyfriends. It's all pretty reductive stuff. But but I am it takes an hour and a half for this conversation take place. But but at least these reasons are given. But again they are, like you said, they're still very like trophy and like women be cat fighting and that's the reason why these women are cat fighting. Yeah, I don't think that there's like had had the writers, you know, talked to women their friendships or or reasons that you know, like I don't know. I mean I think you could talk to even a handful of women and be like, oh, you know, what was a friendship that of yours with another woman that fell apart? And what were the reasons? You could come up with a more grounded, relatable reason other than like boys and mommy and daddy because um, you know a female friendships be complicably complicated as right. And then shortly after we are we understand the reasons why they have had such a tense relationship and friendship throughout their lives. Then they both admit their wrongdoings and apologize to each other. But it's at that point when they start to like, you know, be on each other's sides and decide to like kind of be allies again. That's when the movie turns them into these like and again the performances are very fun. This is still very fun to watch, but it's like they become like these like kind of scary obsessed to I mean, like it like enters like once they die, it says, I mean, yeah, it enters Roger Rabbit territory basically of like the cartoonishness of how the characters like look and behave and it is fun to watch. And that's the thing that Like Bugs Me is movie viewers are smarter than people give them credit for, like your average movie. You're talking about me specifically, right, you're a Stubs member. I am telling all the Stubbs members out there and sponsor us hello, but like, you know, like people aren't going into death becomes her looking for an example of how to live their life, you know, so all you need in order to justify the cartoony violence, which I appreciate that it's cartoony, and it's like that's it's a very different movie if you're like, I'm gonna you really slow instead of literally I'm gonna blow up your torso you know, like the injuries are very cartoony. The comical cutting away to Meryl Street falling down the stairs for forty five minutes before she hits the bottom of the staircase, like it's clearly done with like comedic intent, and all you need to justify all that cartoony violence is a solid reason for these two characters to hate each other other than a vague scene throw in three quarters of the way through the movie that doesn't even really answer any questions, and it makes it clear. I'm like, I wouldn't even be surprised if like that scene was added in later, because it seems like the movie does all it's looking to do to justify two women disliking each other in the first scene by saying, like she steals my boyfriends and we see, you know, it's it's implied that having uh boyfriend quote unquote stolen, which also removes all of the accountability from the boyfriend, that is like grounds for Helen's life completely falling apart. She stops taking care of herself, and she you know, reaches what is kind of implied to be this catatonic state of living over the loss of a boyfriend, which she says explicitly in dialogue she blames a thousand percent on Meryl Streep and not at all on Bruce Willis, who is just too much of a sweetie earnest boo to know what he's doing, which is like, you know, very IROLLI right, And then this movie also subscribes heavily to the idea that fat equals pathetic, that single woman equals pathetic, and that and then also and woman who loves cats pathetic absolutely and how dare how dare there the movie stayed at But there? Yeah, I mean that the way that I mean the fat shaming elements in this movie are ex Meryl is drunk constantly making fat shaming comments about Helen, right, and it's I mean, the beginning of the movie is the worst of it. Where you you know you. We find out that Bruce Willis has married Meryl Streep. Goldie Haunt is very upset by it, and then we cut to seven years later to an exploitative up close ass shot and then revealed that Goldi Han's character has gained eight and it's implied that, yeah, like gaining weight means you've lost control of your life. Like it's just used as this shorthand that is like first of all lazy, bad writing, and second of all it just you know, hold up, not even a little, and in the fat suit, it's just all bad. Right. And then also because she's institutionalized in like a psychiatric hospital, that's also well the way that mentally, the way that mental illness. Yeah that like I mean mercifully at least those scenes are pretty quick. I also think that they could have just flashed forward fourteen years like that midway, because everything that happens at the seven year point is pretty offensive and also not super necessary to the story. Like we can flash forward fourteen years and just be like she's still mad, right, you don't need to do the whole scene where it's fat, shamy and just like bad on every level. And then you cut to the institution, which at least they don't do that horrible thing that movies do where they name a mental illness and explicitly stigmatize it. But the implication is, you know, women be crazy, and being jealous of another woman is a mental illness. And then the I think unnamed mental health professional at the which is one of the only people of color in the entire movie. I don't know that we I don't hear your name. I mean maybe she's credited with one, but I don't think. We definitely don't hear it. But even she's on screen for no more than a minute and fat James Goldiehunt in that scene and is like, you've been here six months and you haven't lost a pound. I'm like, that's not why people are institutionalized. So that's just a cruel thing to say. So that whole first flash forward, I say, get rid of it. We don't need it. And then and then when they flash forward again fourteen years Meryl Street and this is again just like another subtle, not so subtle way of like treating women's bodies. Is Meryl Streep only takes Goldie Han seriously and will only consider talking to her when she finds out that she is lost weight and is back to Goldie Han. And before that, it's like she and Bruce Willis are kind of like gearing up to tease her from Afar and not talk to her. But then when it's revealed that in another tasteless reveal that you know, it's Goldie Han and she's, you know, the Western beauty standards Goldie Han and not the offensive fat suit Goldie Han, then all of a sudden, Meryl Streep is willing to engage and the jealousy is back, and it's just like just just kind of out, don't we don't need it, We don't need it? Yeah, absolutely, And then then they're like rivalry is ignited again, and then we still don't know. I really don't really know why. We only know that that Madeleine tends to steal Helen's boyfriend's away from her, but we don't know why, we don't know what anyone's motivation is. And then things eventually turn around where they do become friends again because they both died and they now that they've both been responsible for the other's death. They kind of they're like, oh, this is the vague reason we were mad to the game, was sorry for not mentioning that earlier, and we're even and yeah, we we right, and we found common ground in both dying and being so obsessed with maintaining our youthful looks that we need to keep this guy around to fix us whenever we need it. But then, like I say, they become villains because one, they're so obsessed with this idea of maintaining that, and then they go so far as to try to drug him and then knock him out, to take him against his will to this place and then force him to take this potion because they just want him. There's also like the bizarre because Bruce Willis, I mean, the thing is like I loved this movie, but but but we must do our job. The the bizarro message you get on masculinity and I think sort of like a trophy beta male character with Bruce Willis in this movie is bizarre. Like I think that immediately all agency is kind of removed from him in a way that like completely free him of accountability on anything, where it's just made to seem like he's this gullible idiot who cannot see through the sexuality of women. That is the thing where he you know, reassures Goldie Han and it's like, there's no way I'll fall for this, And they almost make it seem like Meryl Streep has this magical power of manipulation that immediately wins him over. Goldie Han tells him to his face, I don't blame you for that. It's her. She's evil, she does. She's a woman, a woman from from new work, which is funny, but but you know, like no one ever gets upset for him for things. And then he also intern and keeping with that, blames the women in his life for where his life ends up. And it's like no one, no one forced you to marry Meryl Streep, Bruce Well, I think I'm sorry. You hate to say it, but like no one forced you to And and then sort of the same throughout at the end where it's framed like you know, these two vindictive women want to keep this poor man at their mercy for the rest of their eternal lives, and they want to torture him into infinity, and it's just like it's so over the top, and brist Will has literally kills Meryl Street. But he's like she told me to, like he's actually like he never has a choice in anything, and it's just so like, I mean, I loved I love to watch it, but it does it does give you a weird comment on masculinity that, like every man that's ever lived is completely has to go with the like wiles of women. They don't understand, they can't control it. They do, they commit murder. It's not their fault. Also, there's that scene where Goldie Han, dressed as Jessica Rabbit fully goes up at his house and she's like, I used to be so timid and I couldn't even say the word sex, but now I can say it sex, sex, and he's like, boo, it's kind of funny. But but like, yeah, well, my thing with that character with Earnest is that I feel that he has written the way a lot of women are written, or should I say underwritten in many movies, because he's often hysterical, he's screaming, he is gullible. Um in the relationships that he's in with these two women, he is has far less kind of power and control than the two women. He at least starts out pretty much as like being the supporting character um to these women in the story. So like, but then like by the end, he is framed as like being this hero and they're at his funeral and they're like, oh man, his life got so awesome when he turned fifty and he's a saint and he started the Menville Center for the Study of Women because I guess feminine ist icon Earnest Menville like probably not. I'm like that was I thought that was like kind of a fun Like I don't know. I was like, well, aging worked out for someone, because well, that's the thing. Maybe it's the movie trying to comment but again I don't think it does it effectively. But it's like men are allowed to age gracefully and with dignity, and like, look, how awesome everyone thinks he is. Maybe if you just hung in their ladies and not gotten so upset. Right, But and then by contrast, we see like the two women they are literally like chipping away, falling apart. They look grotesque because they're paint running off of their faces. So it's like, is that commentary? But I feel like and we are, we're on their side, But I just it feels like a hollow message and movies trying to say one thing. Well, something I did like is that I feel like we talked about this when we're watching it too, that Meryl Streep's character in this movie kind of reminds me of Goldie Hans character in First Wives Club, where these are both characters who are in the entertainment industry. Meryl Streep is some sort of like a star of the stage in screen right, who is afraid of not being able to work in the way she would like to if she appears older, right, um, which is similar to Goldie Han in First And I appreciate at very least that I think that often, like a woman's anxiety about aging is made out to see hysterical or pathetic. And while it is definitely exaggerated in this movie, they at very least the writing does go out of its way to couch it in like and this is not something that she is completely, you know, like removed from reality to be worried about, because we see that scene where she goes to her young side pieces house and he is with a younger woman and he rejects her and you know, insults her and says, you know, go date someone your own age, and that is a breaking point for her. And so I think that it was that was one of for me, the more genuine moments of like actual commentary on aging. Of like, yes, it does seem on the surface like Meryl Streep is. You know, she's seen with face masks on all the time. It's made out to be over the top, but then you do get the inverse of it of like she's not doing it for no reason. She's it there is like it is her reality, and so I did appreciate that we we at least get to see that so that she isn't made out to be like the crazy lady tramp. Yeah, I agree that scene where she goes to that guy and he says, like, find a guy your own age. I'm doing you a favorite. People say we look ridiculous together, which is like the movie attempting, I think, to comment on the double standard of society deeming it perfectly acceptable for an older man to be with a younger woman but not acceptable for an older woman to be with a younger man. So the movie does like start to make this commentary. It is like it is, it just doesn't get all the way there, right. It's almost like you know, mail writers and directors that are trying to put women on which is great use your power responsibly, but also talk to them. See what they think, See if they think you're being stupid. Uh, you know, let's just bring it ari aster back into the conversation while we're at it, of just like, yeah, we get it, Like you want to make movie as well. Women try to have a conversation with one. Um. Yeah, there are like those moments where you're like, oh, this the heart was in the right place, but it just rings hollow because there's not really any authenticity in it. And I feel like it's like what makes a great campy movie is like reactions and characters that are over the top of you understand why they're doing what they're doing, and so you can justify almost anything behavior wise. Of like, if I had a better understanding, a rooted reason that Meryl Streep and Goldiehan fucking hate each other, then they could hit each other with shovels all day and I wouldn't care, because it's like you there, there's a grounded reason and you're not just doing it to do it, but you know it. It's just sometimes it feels that way, other times it doesn't. Yeah, I agree, Um, we need to take another quick break, but then we will come right back and we're back. Can I share my two favorite lines in the movie, both said by Bruce Willis because his character just tickles me. Pink hit it baby. He sees like yelling at like a staff member in the hospital after he's taken Madeline to the e R and he's like, you put her in the morgue, shall be furious. And then a little bit later, whenever they're trying to deal with what they think is Helen's dead body, Bruce Willis says, are you just gonna sit there? I'm not going to be your accomplice all by myself, which is comedy at its the peak, so funny. Loved it, Okay, it was fun fun. I mean this movie, I think kind of keeping true to it's hard in the right place, but a lot of you know, kind of classically negative stereotypes being given in. I mean, there's a lot of needlessly like overly revealing out but it's kind of for no reason. I'm almost willing to justify it within the aesthetic of the movie or it is a cartoon. But there's like that scene where Meryl Stape and Goldie Hunter following Bruce Willis around in like Leo tarts for no reason and you're just like, Okay. This is also one of the few movies where the two female leads are older than the male love interest. Rail Streep and Goldi Hunter both older than Bruce Willis, so that very rarely happens. You know. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio will not appear on screen with a woman over the age of twenty four. So there's you know that I thought that was cool. Oh that was getting into the Isabella Risselini right, because she she is. I mean, the costumes are incredible, I mean iconic. They are architecture basically. They the looks her shirt is just several necklaces. But it's also you're like, I think that there's flesh colored fabric involved. I'm not going must because we didn't see any nips. I don't believe there was art. Yeah, because it was PG. Thirteen, so the architect I mean it was wild, but but like, sure there were shots where you saw her bare ass for no reason. Was it gratuitous? Yeah? But I also was like, I wish I could wear that, you know, but there I mean, and there's did you have I don't have much to say about Lisel's character because she is kind of something that I think is something that we have slowly realized is a bizarre trope that appears again again. Is she's a plot, which right, she's were compared which we compared her to Ursula. Yeah, she is. She's literally a ploted She's like, I have a deal for you. I'm wearing an outfit and you're like a right, okay, sure, yeah. I mean then we also, I don't know totally how much this is worth mentioning, but we as we were watching it, we were like, she's like appropriating ancient Egyptian culture with like sound off in the comments. We truly I'm just like, I don't know if there's if what we don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a lot of it we don't know. We don't know, so you know, that's something for for if you have any information on it. We would love to have a more cogent discuss and about it, but at this time we simply don't know. Um, but yeah, that's Lesal. There's really not I mean, yeah, there was like some gratuitous nuded, I mean almost exclusively gratuitous nudi. There she's a plot which but we do have two female protagonists to bounce it off. I mean, like, if if she was one of the only women that you saw on screen at length, I would be way more bothered that she also has like several male servants Fabia's, Fabio's. They're one of them. Is Actually their names are Tom, Dick and Harry, and they are pretty nude. I mean they're topless, they're wearing they're not pretty revealing clothing. So I thought that was you know what if that's an empowering thing for it's just about rules you can't wear a lot of She's rich. Also, she's a businesswoman. I think there's a case she's a woman in she's seventies some years old, she said, which is I mean, it is another one of those I mean, and again this movie is not thinking too hard about it, I'm certain, but you know, like a female scientist can only be a witch kind of thing. But also she has at least some business life outside of it. I don't have that much to say about this character. And then there's also the thing of like it's a movie about women aging and like not being allowed to age gracefully in society, not allowing that, but then it's also casting three women who are very attractive by Western beauty standards, and it's like great, right for you? Yeah, I don't know. I mean it is an interesting Again, It's just like, so much of this movie would pull together more for me if we had a more grounded story and why they dislike each other, because as it stands, it just makes some really cool, interesting scenes and choices kind of feel less impactful and cool. But uh, and ultimately, it is the women who suffer for what is presented at the beginning as a societal ill, and yet it is still all these two women who have to suffer the eternal consequences of it, and we're punished for it, which is a weird message to leave it off. Um. I wanted to do a quick little context moment for um this movies. Um, So I was just so thrown off by you calling it a context moment corner Jamie's context corner. Uh. This movie has a massive queer following. I wasn't aware of the extent of the queer legacy of this movie, but there was a terrific piece that came out in Vanity Fair on this exact topic, with extensive reporting that came out two years ago. It was written by Christie Pouchko, So thank you for doing all this. Um it gives a little bit of background on the production of the movie as well as how it is gained a you're following over time because this movie wasn't super successful when it came out, and it also was not well reviewed. Um it just broke its budget domestically and then ended up making some money internationally, but it definitely wasn't considered anyone's best. It wasn't nominated for anything except visual effects. A lot of the interviews are a lot of the pole quotes are from David cup kick ko E p p is it kept kept Let's he he gave some insight into what they were going for. He says, quote it was meant to be Knight of the Living Dead if George q Core had directed it, which I think is kind of a fun reference. It felt like no risk whatsoever because we both had nothing but credit card debt to our names. There was nowhere to go but up. So this was this was basically written to be and the original casting choices kind of revealed that it was written to be a B movie. And then because Robert Zemeckis had a lot of clout and wanted to direct the movie. All of a sudden it was elevated to a big budget level. Well so there, which I feel like you can kind of in a good way, feel that dissonance of like, why is Bruce Willis in this movie? Why would like the this movie could have been made for a lot less money, But I'm kind of glad it wasn't, you know, like they it looks like it cost fifty five million dollars um. But what this has inspired a lot of In addition to the movie being screened at Pride events quite a bit, um is there have been a lot of like iconic drag performances inspired by Death Becomes Her to the point where it was a specific runway challenge on RuPaul's drag race at some point um where Violet cho key one um for the most intensely since waste I've ever seen in my entire life. You can look it up. It was so good. Later in the article, David kepp Is asked why I think this is a very fun question to ask him because old men are so doofy sometimes. They asked him, why do you think this movie has a mass such a big queer following, and he has this to say, quote, you really can't underestimate the entertainment value of two women swinging shovels at each other, uh, and then the other the other all he said yes, and then his coat, and then his co writer says quote, I could invent some excuse, but deep down in my heart, I do not know. So, I mean it's like they're I mean, they're just like kind of like, we've never talked to a gay person, so right, so they're like, I guess it worked out for us. Um the winner of drag Ray Sieves In five, jerk Hoffer had that's Jinx Monsoon, Yes one under Jinx Monsoon. But interviewed did this interview under Jack Hoffer took on like the Death Becomes Her themed photo shoot like has a history drain. Here's what Jack has to say, quote, I think this is a trait that runs throughout the queer community, the obsession with the hyper femine and female villains. And we see it in Disney movies and in movies like Death Becomes Her and in characters like Poison Ivy and Catwoman. Almost all the Disney villain which is are gay icons, which is I mean, we've discussed at length here and they continue, uh quote. I think it's a combination of it being a strong female character, who who you love, how evil she is. You know. I don't know why that is a trait that appears to queer people so much, but it's pretty consistent amongst the queer community. I think it has something to do is feeling like outcasts and imagining yourself in this position of power where even though you're the outcast, you still have some kind of power and strength within you. So yeah, and then finally, quote, I think it's really feminist that they're willing to take their lives into their own hands and do whatever it takes, be willing to spray paint themselves and fill themselves with cement or whatever to just uphold themselves and try to stay in command. So there you go. That is, in brief, the History of Death becomes her as a iconic queer movie as well. Ye, beautiful, thanks for the context corner. You're welcome. Yeah, I'm glad. I mean we talked about this a fair amount to where certain movies have become like queer icon texts, not because there are any queer characters in them, because there are often not in most mainstream movies. Yeah, even in like It's it's just it's it's cool to understand the history of how movies become iconic in any community. Like it's cool. And I knew so little about this movie to begin with that, like having context for that drag race competition was great for me. Yeah, it was great because I had watched it before and been like, what is that? I don't know? And now I know, I understand. You know, I'm learning. Um do anything else you want to hit on? Just the Helen Sharp first has a cat and then has many cats, and cats have eight nipples. That's facts with Caitlin. Yeah, I think that's about it. Though. Yeah, I enjoyed this movie quite a bit. I'm happy it will be continued to watch for years to come. I think it is the kind of movie that even though it's flaws I think are pretty glaring, I find them so glaring that it is almost like people can continue to watch it. Does that make sense? Yeah, where it's not like a subtle poison being put into like the veins of a movie where you're like, oh no, I'm red pilt, you know, like it is so it is so wildly campy that it's not like very very small doses of arsenic that you take over the course of several months and then die from it. It's like the poison apple with like the poison symbol painted onto the apple and try this is fun. They're perfect analogy. Yeah, I mean, just a movie trying to tackle the subject of like women aging and how society believes that that's not a thing that should be allowed at all, you know, and and approaching that topic in a very way, and that it only tackles it in the context of upper class, straight white women. Um. But in terms of the time, I mean, there's not a lot of movies in that are trying to address the concept of women aging at all. It's the horror of women at all, of women so right, and and so I think in that it has a valuable place in history in addition to being a fun watch with some really incredible how the performances performances, But it is the the outfits in this movie are really Next, let me say my one last piece. I think maybe and this doesn't justify this at all, but perhaps the reason that we cut to the seven years or where we see Goldie Han like completely in crisis and like mentally crumbling and all of that. Is that that's when she we don't see her do this, of course, because it has to be a reveal later on, but that's when we understand her to take the potion because she says she takes it October. That would be seven years after when the movie opens in about October. That is the day of the temporal junction point of the space time continuum. According to Back to the Future, another Robert zemeckis Galaxy Brain, so we needs actually exist in the same universe Galaxy Brain. I love it. It makes me happy. I didn't understand And you know, we did cover Back to the Future on the Matreon as well. It did not fare well, but it's still a movie I deeply, deeply love. So that's my cross to bear. Yeah, fortunately it isn't mine. Um, But I do like a good Billy Zane joint, which I think is how Back to the Future is remembered um as one of best perfermances. But yeah, I mean, I yeah, this this I would genuinely like recommend watch this movie with your friends. It's a blast. I'm sure there's a great drinking game for this movie somewhere. Um, But you know that's why we're here to just you know, keep you humble. But you know, hey, it's not as good as you think it is, but it's still pretty good. That's our job. Does this movie pass the Bectel test? It does? It does. Between Madeline and Helen, Between Madeline and Liesl. There's a few other conversations with a very tertiary female characters who don't get named, that don't pass the Bectel test. But there are women interacting, and there is a lot of talk about, like I feel like, even slightly edging out the Bruce Willis talk. There is a lot of talk about jealousy and fractures within the friendship. Um. And often men will come up because the conflict between them is underwritten. But you do they do like that some of the dialogue is like left for us to kind of explore this conflict, although it comes away too late in the movie. But yeah, so you know it does pass. Sure. Does What would you rate the film? Probably pretty low? Um? I mean, here's okay, I was gonna say this earlier. For all of its faults, all of the action in this movie is driven by the female characters. Bruce Willis has, like you were saying, is reduced to no agency like female characters often are. He becomes kind of this flaccid tool weapon, screaming, squealing, hysterical to be used by the two female here to. So in that way, I think it is very unusual and cool women are. But then he is given agency like the climax, and it's almost like he was climax and then he's yeah, exactly, I have to. I don't like the way this movie ends. One and a half, one and a half maybe two. I was gonna give it to Okay, I'll go to nip for each of them. This gets a five million on the Campo meter, but that's not what we're here for. Uh. In terms of maybe we should do that podcast Ika, Yeah, new Patreon tier strictly discussing camp the Campo meter, but this is like Campo meter a plus. But in terms of how the movie treat this family characters, I would say about two because they do lose in the end, which doesn't they're punished for, you know, wanting to And that's the other thing, Like, yes, society has these rigid expectations about women and women aging. Women will also be criticized. We're trying to like participate in like I'm going to try to not look like I'm aging so much kind of thing, and then women are also punished for that. Well, it's just like, well, what can't you just like age naturally? And it's like, because you fucking won't let me take society. Well the Yeah, I feel like the movie like at some points it reaches like, oh, it looks like it's about to make a really cool point, and then it punishes the female character were making the choice that they've explained, it made it clear why they're making that choice, and then they're like, well, whatever funk are anyways, and you're just like that's not fair. My ideal ending for this movie is that once they become friends again, they discuss, okay, this was our conflict, we both killed each other, we're even. Then, instead of going after Bruce Willis, they like find a more like a large, like societal target, and like, instead of going after this one person that they've been using as a tool this whole time, go after someone who has actually inflicted harm upon them and go after that. Like, I feel like that's a more logical target, especially if you get that cool moment of them uniting, right, it's like, why would you go out to Bruce Willis? Right? I do like when they come together and form this like friendship again. But yeah, the third act of this movie is a mess, and they should there should be like maybe like a movie director who's like, I'm not going to cast you anymore, Mary because you've gotten too old, or even just like someone who's set up a little bit earlier of someone who has done actual harm or encouraged conflict among them or something like that, where because going for Bruce Willis it doesn't make a ton of sense, and then he ends up winning and you're just like I don't like that either, Like there was a cooler in trajectory for them, and they should have one because we're woting for them. Should have had us write the movie really like I know that we barely existed at this time that they should have led us. Yeah, you were a fetus, maybe a fetis and I was six years old in the first grade. I think that that's an amazing that's a really cool progressive strandwriting team is and we would have been able to comment on aging women as a fetus and a six year old, So there are the better choice than two men. Isn't that insane someone who hasn't been born as a better choice, But it is true in the in this case of yeah, it's just it's good intentions. But I feel like, you know, with the benefit of time, we now understand that, um, two men are very rarely going to write a realistic, compelling relationship between two women, whether it's like gritty realism or camp. It just you just you just need someone in the room. So two nippies kicking one each of them same, I'll do the same. Yea. Now they both got a full second for them. Congratulations Isabella, you're out of luck. And folks, that was the Death Becomes Her episode. Thanks for tuning in, and we just wanted to remind you that was an unlocked Matreon episode. If you want seventy plus more episodes like that, they're all over at Patreon dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast, slash Bechtel Cast. Sorry my brain is putting um Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. You will get two extra episodes a month and a Titanic bonus dream for September, one of many Titanic bonuses on the Matreon because we also have a three hour and fourteen minutes commentary track in which we watched Titanic and commented on it. We have one where we're drunk on Thanksgiving watching Titanic a couple of years ago. That's a fun one, and then we have another one that I don't remember why we I think that one was just everything we didn't cover in the first one. The second that the follow up aisode was pretty comprehensive of like everything we've learned about Titanic since our first episode with a parliament nantrella, which is on this and it's dense. Papers could be written, Please don't write them. Well, here's the thing. I want to do another Titanic episode, obviously, because I've completely come around on a bunch of things, even since the last time we recorded. Okay, I'm I'm fully down. Yeah, Team Fabritt CEO, That's what I'm that's my news stance. Also, this this is our first This is our first time doing Titanic since we realized the whole DiCaprio fully closed underwater, which really changes your read of the entire movie. You we have to look at it from an entirely New lens Now cinematic language is so dense. Uh oh my, you can just I mean, we'll listen to this episode in the future and be like, wow, the air quality was just not good. Uh the We're like, no, it's the thematic implications of Leonardo DiCaprio being underwater while he's wearing clothes. It means something everythang. Uh, we love you. Thank you for bearing with us. Also remember to um check out our Titanic or no our our Twilight live stream. Our Twilight live stream is next Friday. Jacob benefiting Fatima eball zoo fair Um, she is the best. Will be posting about it NonStop. We can't wait. And if you want to get merch, that's over t public dot com slash the beck Doel Cast. Follow us on social media at your leisure at becktel Cast, especially because we're going to be um posting all the information about the Twilight live read slash roast on our social media platform. We're gonna be real annoying about it. You're not going to miss it. Uh, so we hope to see you at the Twilight hang and nothing into the episode, right, I think so we didn't we didn't cut it down uh bye right bye bye