Reds Pitching Coach Derek Johnson

00:00:04
Speaker 1: We're excited to talk to Derek Johnson back on the show. Derek, I think what was it maybe a year or has it been two years now?

00:00:11
Speaker 2: Yeah? Maybe two two years. Good to see you.

00:00:14
Speaker 3: Okay, well, good to see you too.

00:00:16
Speaker 1: One of our favorite conversations last time, really getting deep, deep into the weeds on the pitching side. So we appreciate the time again. Hope you're having a nice offseason. First off, how is everything going for you? And are your off seasons kind of the same.

00:00:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I live in Cincinnati. Yeah, yeah, I live in Cincinnati, and and you know, I'm at the field quite a bit, and you know, but yeah, typically it's about the same. You know, there's not really a whole lot going on here. But but yeah, it's been a productive off season for us so far on the pitching side of things. And I know our guys aren't done quite yet. We're still trying to figure out a couple more players if they can.

00:00:56
Speaker 4: Before we get to the team.

00:00:58
Speaker 5: How many times, how many times or how many guys are actually at in Cincinnati that you watch throw or coming in working out, because normally we hear about dudes that are down in Phoenix, down in goodyear working out there.

00:01:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, we actually just had an event Red's Fast and it's a big fan convention kind of thing, so I actually got to see pretty much every guy on the squad, you know, throw the at least throw the baseball, if not a bullpen, So that was good. I do spend some time in Arizona down there when we can, in the laboratory, if you will, and you know, see those guys pitch down there, you know, every now and again as well.

00:01:37
Speaker 5: Do you think more should be done for pictures? We talk about the off season. We're in the middle of it right now. Should more be done? I'm not trying to put more on your plate. I know you like your job, but you also like your family. So should more be done? Or do we let pitchers and position players but you work with pitchers kind of just go willy nilly, We're gonna go to tread, I'm gonna go drive line.

00:01:59
Speaker 4: Hey, talk to me in two weeks.

00:02:01
Speaker 5: Should teams that spend hundreds of millions of dollars on their roster spend more time with players in the offseason?

00:02:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, and I think coaches, you know, we talk about it all the time. I'm not sure there's a clear answer there, But what I will say is after every year, we put together a player plan for each guy that that we know is going to be returning, and it's pretty extensive. We do a lot of work, a lot of digging on how the year went and maybe what we could do next, and you know, try to simplify it down to a point where we've got one or two things that we want them to work on. A lot of guys now have built the labs and their complexes and their spring training complexes, and so you know, we have all of the capabilities pretty much that a drive line or a tread you know, would have. I guess the question is, you know, do they want an outside source, you know, maybe just another set of eyes kind of looking at them. And I respect that. I mean, I think the guys at drive Line, the guys at tread, you know, they all have very good qualities about them. Probably the worst thing, you know, if if you could point to one thing, is they don't know the player nearly as well as I do. So you know, there's there's probably room for a little bit of both. But I do think that, you know, I don't want to just turn them the guys loose and say, hey, have at it. You know, now every year they all come back with one more new pitch that you know, we've got to figure out if they could use or not. And half the time, you know, they scrap it about mid mid spring training anyway. But but yeah, it's a it's a great question.

00:03:40
Speaker 6: Derek, where do you stand on pitchers throwing the whole offseason? Because you're talking about tread and drive line, and these guys throw innings and they get they do their updowns, especially bullpen guys. Let's say they get into seventy games and then they take two weeks off and then they're at drive Line or tread or in goodyear at your facility, and they're chucking balls as hard as they can. And then guess what, it's only November, right, and in December, January, February, and then you got to be ramped up for April. So where do you stand on guys taking a breather? Because it seems like less and less guys take one.

00:04:09
Speaker 2: You're right, it's it's sort of a trend. And I guess when I first got into it, it almost felt like they take took too much time off and now they're kind of gravitating back towards you know, not as much time. And I think it varies on the guy. I think if you know, he reached his max innings, you know, there's there's probably a little bit of rest needed on the front end of things. You know, we had a couple of guys that were close to eighty appearances in the bullpen, and certainly you know that guy probably doesn't need to have a baseball in his hand. So I think timing is really important in that, you know, one of the things that we try to do. Some guys love it, some guys don't do it, but we we kind of deload after the season's over. So I actually still have them throw a little bit after the seasons, usually about three times a week for a couple of weeks. Then it kind of goes to two and then they sort of, you know, put the arm to bed for a while. But I think timing is really important if they're going to go to one of those places, you know, I still think that there needs to be at least a chunk of time where you know they're they're you know, just kind of actively you know, in the weight room, pilate's whatever that might be without a baseball in your hand. So I think the the later it gets, you know, as you get into November December, I think that'd be a perfect time to go to tread or or somewhere to do the work.

00:05:29
Speaker 4: You mentioned new pitches. Does anybody have a new pitch? Like this is the time first?

00:05:34
Speaker 2: I mean, you've got they every year they have a new one, right, you know. I mean I'm kind of joking on that, but but they are. They always kind of fiddle right there. Hey, I put this two seamer in my hand, I put this split in my hand. You know, I'm thinking about a curve ball and that It's fine, you know, to me, it's it's your career. You know. If you want to experiment on a pitch that you think might help you be a better pitcher, than I'm all for it.

00:06:00
Speaker 3: It.

00:06:00
Speaker 2: I just think it's kind of funny too, because you know, a lot of times they'll come in and say, I've got that change up that we've been talking about, and then halfway through spring training they refuse to kind of throw the thing. But you know, I think it's a good thing, you know, in a joking sort of way.

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00:07:20
Speaker 6: Derek, you said something interesting and when a couple answers ago about I give personal posts our off season plans to guys that we are expecting your return. Well, we've heard Hunter Green, we've heard Andrew Aba, we've heard Nick Lodolo on the trading block. So did they get their off season planned because you're expecting them to be back?

00:07:42
Speaker 2: Good segue? Yeah, and they did. They received one. And you know, you never know what happens on the business side of things, and you don't know for sure who is going to be on your team probably until you know, maybe even opening day. But you know, those guys, they're still young enough, they're controllable enough, you know. And I know that there's rumors out there. I hear them too. I'm sure the players do you know. I think it's it's just like anything else. I mean, our guys have to and I say our guys in the front office, they have to explore every option that they possibly can, and that includes trading some of our players. You know, do I hope that it happens? No, I don't. But at the same time, you know, if it means that our team can get better in another way that we really need it to get better at, then you know, and then I think you got to look at it and say, okay, well, you know, we do have a little bit of depth pitching wise, especially on the starting end. You know, they are fairly young still, so they're going to be you know, I think people are gonna they're going to gravitate towards that situation, and they're they're all pretty good, so you know, it does stand a reason that's a possibility. On the other side of things, I think our guys in the front office they're smart enough too to try to do whatever they can to keep as much pitching here as possible, because it seems like, you know, every single year, you know, especially in the smaller markets, you're just going to be you're not going to feel nearly as deep. A guy gets hurt, you know, a couple guys gets hurt, and all of a sudden, we don't have the same kind of depth that we thought we did. So I think it's a lot of just moving parts, and you know, I expect them all to be there, and you know, when they're not, or if they're not, then I guess the player playing goes with them and whoever team they can figure it out.

00:09:36
Speaker 5: Obviously you can tell me if I'm wrong, But you basically have four guys that are solidified for those five rotation spots. That last spot, Chase Burns is obviously a guy that's up there. What do you a What have you seen from him? What do you need to see from him? Or the other guys that are in competitions in spring training when it's like, all right, guys, I know you're building up, but you're evaluating. We used to always say when we're playing, nobody makes the team on the first day of spring training practices. But you sure as heck could get cut on the first day because you show up and you look terrible, you don't throw well, your lax of days ago, whatever it is. What are you trying to see from the guy who's going to take that spot, if it's Chase Burns or if it's somebody.

00:10:22
Speaker 2: Else, Well, I mean I can give you kind of three guys that would probably be in that mold of things. And you know you're talking about Brandon Williamson, who's been here a little bit. He was hurt all last year Yeah, Rhet Lauder, who was here at the end of last year two years ago, same thing, had no bleak and ended up just not really having much of a season. And then you have Burnsy. I'll start with Burnsy and just say, like, listen, he's twenty two years old and he was fresh out of college basically when you know when we brought him up. I mean, he barely had any minor league time at all. He learned a lot. I think in the time that he was here. He kind of learned how to slow himself down, which is obviously a huge thing for especially for a young guy, but he learned how to throw bullpens, maybe in a little bit of a different way than what he was He kind of figured out some of his timing with when he was going to lift weights and going to do all the stuff. And you know, that's kind of been the I guess the battle cry around here, if you will. I mean, we've had a lot of really young pitchers who were they they just weren't finished products. So we had to work a lot on just normal things, throwing programs. You know, just what the routine was going to look like. And you know, so I can go on down the list with every single guy that you mentioned mentioned here that that's what we had to do with them. So you know, it's no different with Burnsy. He kind of learned. He was kind of learning on the fly and he had his feet to the fire and he did a really nice job. You know, Louder doesn't really have very much major league experience. He has some he can really really pitch, and you know, I'm looking forward to kind of letting those guys battle it out. And then you know, Brandon Williamson man like a couple of years ago, he was pretty good and he hung into games with us and you know, just really kind of gave us a shot in the arm and we needed it.

00:12:18
Speaker 5: Wait, DJ, I was going to ask something completely different, and now you brought it up. Your background was elite college baseball and you came to pro ball. You were the pitching coach when I was on the Brewers at the same time. And now we're hearing minor league baseball could cut some of their teams because these elite college programs are getting the players ready already.

00:12:44
Speaker 4: But you just said Chase Burns.

00:12:46
Speaker 5: Wasn't quite ready in his preparation in his so would you seeing both sides of it. Now, trying to win in the big leagues and trying to win in college. Can they take care of that and the colleges take care of what's needed for a man to compete in the big leagues professionally.

00:13:08
Speaker 2: In a lot of ways, yes, but in so many just functional ways.

00:13:12
Speaker 3: No.

00:13:12
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you think about it. Obviously, they're test pitching more and they just there's just things in the big leagues that there's no way a college team could ever prepare the player for. I mean on the physical side, sure, but it's just it's gonna be really really hard for them to match that.

00:13:32
Speaker 5: All right, now, you quit on the Brewers and went to a nice contract. I remember having a conversation with you that you were like, I got to do this for my family.

00:13:41
Speaker 4: And it's been an incredible move from the Brewers to the Reds.

00:13:45
Speaker 5: I don't know if we're going to show the chart, but one of the great interns for us made a chart from Baseball Savant that had a the basically the graph of how the Great American Small Park, which is a home field for the Reds, used to suck to pitch in. And ever since you've been there, it has steadily gotten tougher and tougher to hit him. Is that a concerted effort or is that just a reality of the pitchers you have because your home, your home numbers for your starting rotation for your staff are much better than your road numbers. So is there a concerted effort to make a place where free agent pitchers say, I'm not going there hit a fly ball.

00:14:27
Speaker 4: Even AJ can hit a home run there.

00:14:31
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I do think it's gotten better, but I think it's just been more of a like a mental adjustment. Back then, they were looking for a lot of contact pitching, you know, sinker slider, guys that could put the ball on the ground, and not that that was the wrong way, but it certainly didn't really change anything that they were doing. I mean, their pitching was still, you know, not probably as good as it needed to be. When I got here there, there was one thing for sure that we talked a lot about, and that was swing and miss. You know, I did want to make guys miss the ball because of the size of the ballpark, and we've done a better job of that, And of course we've had years where we've we've struck a lot of guys out. We've had, you know, a lot of whiff and that kind of thing. We've had other years, it wasn't quite as much. And you know, I think with young pitchers who throw hard, you know, you're you're going to probably get too much walk in there as well, which isn't a good thing in this kind of ballpark. But you know, first we don't we don't ever talk about it. You know, it's never going to be an excuse for us. We know that we play in a ball a small ballpark. We've seen the front row homers that shouldn't be home home runs. But I do think it comes from that mentality of swing and miss and not just contact. I mean, we want we contact as well, but but man, if I if I could choose one or the other, I choose with every single time, especially in this ballpark. The other thing too is I think when you come to this kind of ballpark and you know, you guys both hit so you know better than I. But you know, I also almost think that there's put a little bit more pressure on themself to try to hit a homer, which so you know, if we can use that aggression against them, that that's gonna help us.

00:16:18
Speaker 5: Is Hunter Green and ace. We talk about this several times. There's only in my opinion, AJ's opinion, there's only seven to ten aces in the game.

00:16:30
Speaker 4: There's a lot of number ones. Just Hunter Green an ace.

00:16:35
Speaker 2: It's it's a great question. And the answer to that is he's sure can be, and he's on his way to be. I think, like anything else, you know, when you think of an ace, you think of a guy that you know he's going to take the ball every time, and and he's just going to grind things out, and you know, he's everyone's going to look at him when he's pitching and say, that's that's my guy. And I think Hunter took great steps towards that last year. You know, Unfortunately for him, he just keeps getting banged up a little bit and and there's just enough of that to where it's like, as soon as he can get into that one hundred and eighty inning range, I think that we're all going to be maybe looking at that saying, yeah, that's that's what a nace looks like. But there's a maturity part of that too, you know. And and he's now been in the league. You know, I don't know what three or four years or whatever it's been, and he's taken steps in every facet of that as well, you know, and it's fun to watch because you know, Lodolo has done that, Abbot's done that. You know, I expect that Burnsy will too. So you know, I just think there's those stepping stones that pitchers take, and you know, we've seen almost again kind of like underneath the spotlight of these guys taking those steps to get, you know, get to that status. And Hunter's certainly capable, and he's a great kid, and he's become a very very good worker, very conscientious in what he does, and he's become a real pro.

00:18:06
Speaker 1: We're talking to Derek Johnson, pitching coach director pitching for the Cincinnati Reds VET in our game Guru of Pitching.

00:18:13
Speaker 3: Derek, what do you think about the baseball?

00:18:15
Speaker 1: Do you think it's ever going to change drastically or have more consistency in Major League baseball?

00:18:21
Speaker 3: It's probably not a topic you think.

00:18:23
Speaker 1: About a ton, but we don't really get I mean, like you during the season, so curious to get your thoughts.

00:18:29
Speaker 2: No, I don't think about it a lot. I mean, you know, it's pretty easy to see like when you grab a baseball. Sometimes it just feels really good in your hands, and sometimes it doesn't, and they all are still different. I mean they are hand wound or whatever, so you know, I mean, I think the balls are fine. They put him in the human door, they do all the stuff that they're supposed to do. They rub him regulation. I think the one thing that I always kind of laugh about is, you know, we're rubbing a baseball with mud from a river somewhere I don't know, Delaware or wherever it is. You would think that there'd be a product out there that we could rub up a baseball with It would actually be a little better than you know, river mud, you know. I mean there's leather conditioner. I put leather conditioner on a baseball and it's still pretty white. But man, the thing feels tremendous in my hand. Whereas you know, you put it, put the mud on it, you put it in the humid door. It comes out and sometimes they just feel real, real slick, real chalky. It's almost like the mud made it worse. So I don't think it'll change unless they tackify it. They've they've talked about that before. They've never really were able to come up with anything that, you know, everyone was okay with. But I felt some of those tack balls and they felt fine with me. I know Japan uses them all the time, and I think the guys there like them.

00:19:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's why I asked.

00:19:54
Speaker 1: We got to get rid of the mud situation at some point, poor mud getting used.

00:20:00
Speaker 2: We're using red weird.

00:20:02
Speaker 3: That is weird.

00:20:03
Speaker 5: That's such an MLB mafia type of thing to do. Like, Hey, I know a guy that's got some Delaware mud. We're gonna put it on the ball mud everywhere.

00:20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, my cousin, it doesn't make any sense to me.

00:20:19
Speaker 3: I'm with you.

00:20:19
Speaker 1: Well, Derek, we appreciate the time, the insights always awesome.

00:20:23
Speaker 3: Thank you for joining us.

00:20:24
Speaker 1: Enjoy the rest of the off season while you've got it, and we'll see in spring training.

00:20:28
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks, fellows. I appreciate being on.

00:20:36
Speaker 1: At MGM Futures. How about those Blue Jays eighty eight and a half dubs?

00:20:42
Speaker 3: I think that's love.

00:20:44
Speaker 6: Yeah, they won how many last they won?

00:20:46
Speaker 4: Ninety four? Last year?

00:20:47
Speaker 6: Right, I believe so they tied the Yankees at ninety four. So how did their number go down?

00:20:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, ninety four? Well, they got worse. They only added a million people this off season.

00:20:58
Speaker 4: That's not okay.

00:20:59
Speaker 6: But they picked up Dylan Cease, they picked up.

00:21:03
Speaker 3: On the Moto Rogers in the bullpen.

00:21:08
Speaker 4: I mean, I think they got much improved, just my opinion.

00:21:11
Speaker 3: But he had a good year. He did, but it's not costing them six wins though. Yeah, I don't I don't know.

00:21:21
Speaker 6: I mean the division got a little bit better too, which maybe people are thinking that MGM's thinking, but I don't know.

00:21:27
Speaker 4: I think that I think this one's an over.

00:21:29
Speaker 3: World Series hangover. I mean, I know, the winners, the losing of.

00:21:32
Speaker 6: The World Series usually the next year doesn't do great.

00:21:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they went deep. I mean, you went as deep as you can go into the playoffs. You really worked guys.

00:21:40
Speaker 6: But a lot of those guys, A lot of those guys aren't even back. Sure's are Bascett guys aren't back. Bo's not back, but was playing on one leg. I don't know, God, I think I.

00:21:52
Speaker 4: Think they're okay.

00:21:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you. I'm taking the over. I'm just presenting maybe why they'd throw it out there. Krats any ideas.

00:22:01
Speaker 5: If the number was ninety then I'd be like I'm not touching it. But because eighty eight, I'm like, man, why does this feel like it should be like it should be an over? And that's what makes me scared. It just seems too much like an over. But because they have them pretty much finishing right the same amount of wins as the Cubs, Mets, Blue Jays, Braves, all Red Sox, all right in that eighty seven eighty eight range, and I think there's a clear distinction of Blue the Blue Jays being a better team than them. But then two years ago, we would have never said.

00:22:35
Speaker 3: That things change fast in our league.

00:22:39
Speaker 1: So drop a comment if you have other thoughts as to why it's gone down to eighty eight and a half. I mean, I'm sure it was affected by maybe an anticipation that Kyle Tucker was going to sign.

00:22:50
Speaker 3: He doesn't end up signing there, So we shall see.

00:22:54
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