Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep31 - Resorbed Pregnancies, Small Litters and Antibiotics: The Latest Research

1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,120
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

2
00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,880
And this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

3
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,280
You bring the topics,

4
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:20,280
we bring the conversation.

5
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,880
This episode is a discussion
about the routine

6
00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,880
use of antibiotics in breeding bitches.

7
00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:30,960
And the question came in

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,600
on our Facebook
discussion group for our breeder course.

9
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,600
That's the Newborn to New Home course.

10
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,240
Here's the question.

11
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,120
We had a girl who was pregnant
with at least one puppy at 28 day

12
00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,120
ultrasound, and zero
puppies on xray at 50 days.

13
00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,600
I'm curious
what other people would check with a girl

14
00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,840
who absorbed before breeding her again.

15
00:00:58,480 --> 00:00:59,880
She's a maiden.

16
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,640
We did side by side on days three

17
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:07,520
and four post
LH surge, but did not confirm ovulation

18
00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:11,760
because of travel, job,
weather in the mountains.

19
00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,320
Semen was good
at last check, boy was keen.

20
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,720
AI was done by a friend

21
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,800
who is a third generation breeder.

22
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,040
Okay me again.

23
00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,640
First of all, it's
just a bummer when you lose a litter

24
00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:34,320
and I'm sorry about that.

25
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:35,880
Then I just want to say I'm

26
00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:41,880
going to address the exact question
that the querent submitted,

27
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,880
which is,
What should she check with her Dam.

28
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,040
Because there are obvious

29
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,800
questions here about the timing,
the semen quality.

30
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,840
There are other reasons
why this could have been a miss

31
00:01:58,080 --> 00:01:59,720
and wound up with one puppy.

32
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,320
But let's just talk
about the question on the table,

33
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,600
which is what would you check on a bitch

34
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,600
that showed a pregnancy at day

35
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,840
28 and then at day 50
there were no puppies.

36
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,000
I am going to go down a list of things,

37
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,440
but I also want to say

38
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,320
I would not be overly alarmed
in this particular situation

39
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:34,000
because you saw one puppy
and then no puppies.

40
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,120
Okay, so it's very likely

41
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,200
that there was something

42
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,520
genetically wrong with that puppy and it
it was resorbed.

43
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:46,880
I mean, that that the puppy was
just not meant to be.

44
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,000
It didn't develop correctly.

45
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:50,240
This happens.

46
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,320
Okay, so

47
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,920
one puppy to zero puppies
not as concerning

48
00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,000
as if you had eight puppies
and then zero puppies.

49
00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,000
That's a different profile.

50
00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:04,480
So that having been

51
00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,480
said, here
are the things that I would start with.

52
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,480
First of all, did
she have a brucellosis test?

53
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:16,320
It's rare, but it's possible.

54
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,240
And brucellosis is something
that can cause resorption and infertility.

55
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,800
So I would check that
if you haven't had that done already.

56
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:29,880
If you do get your bitch and whelp again,

57
00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,520
you might want to check her
progesterone levels

58
00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,840
throughout the pregnancy
because progesterone has to stay

59
00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,400
at about two in order
for her to maintain her pregnancy.

60
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,560
And some bitches
don't maintain that level.

61
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,600
And if that is the case,
you can supplement

62
00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,640
with progesterone to maintain pregnancy.

63
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,480
Now, depending on the dam's age

64
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:59,800
and family history,
this is a case where I might consider

65
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:02,960
doing a surgical insemination
the next time,

66
00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,160
just so the vet can visually inspect
the uterus.

67
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,240
There could be cysts or a brewing pyometra

68
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,280
that you don't know about,
that would only be visible

69
00:04:16,280 --> 00:04:19,400
if you go in there
and do a surgical insemination.

70
00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,680
I don't have enough information

71
00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:27,040
in this case to say,
if I were the breeder of this bitch,

72
00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,240
if I would do this,
but it's on the table for me.

73
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:30,680
Okay.

74
00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,360
If I really have checked off all the boxes
as far as timing, semen quality,

75
00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:41,160
and I've had the semen evaluated by a
thorough genealogist with good equipment,

76
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,880
timing, I've really done my timing
straight through.

77
00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:48,880
I'm sure that everything went well there

78
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,160
and then I have a complete miss.

79
00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:55,520
I might want to have a look

80
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,520
and see what's going on in there.

81
00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,520
I'm not saying that I'm recommending

82
00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,720
that to this particular person
in this case, but

83
00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:08,280
it's on my list. Okay.

84
00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:12,240
If I have a especially if I have
a complete mis or a really small litter

85
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,400
and there's no other explanation for it
in this case, I can't really say

86
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,000
that she's checked off all the boxes,

87
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,840
so I might not jump to going
to a surgical, but it's on the table.

88
00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:22,840
Okay.

89
00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:26,920
If I have an unexplained very small litter
or no puppies,

90
00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:31,160
surgical is on the table just to visualize
what's going on with the uterus.

91
00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,960
So those
are just my first few quick thoughts.

92
00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:41,080
When I have a bitch that misses
or has only like one puppy

93
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,520
and everything else is good.

94
00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:51,480
Now, if you went to a good repro vet, they
probably would have other suggestions.

95
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,680
I didn't mention thyroid
and blood workups, which

96
00:05:56,280 --> 00:06:00,920
is always a good idea and I would hope
that you would be doing routinely anyway.

97
00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,440
But if you haven't done
that, that's important.

98
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:09,920
And as I say, a thorough genealogist,
it's a constantly evolving field,

99
00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,760
so they may have
something else to suggest,

100
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,120
but these are my tried
and true punch list of things

101
00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:19,360
when I have unexplained infertility

102
00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,360
or low fertility in a bitch.

103
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,640
But now we come to the reason why I felt

104
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,160
I needed to do a podcast about this.

105
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:35,520
Because somebody wrote in and suggested
giving a prophylactic course

106
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,120
of antibiotics to flush out the
bitch's reproductive tract.

107
00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,320
I mean, this is something

108
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,880
that was really hot, like 20 years ago.

109
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:52,200
You if you went to a repro vet,
they were going to give you antibiotics to

110
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:53,080
cleanse out.

111
00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,640
So you would basically have a clean medium
for reproduction.

112
00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,760
I'm going to talk a little bit
about the most recent studies on this.

113
00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,880
But the overview is this.

114
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,320
There really is no correlation

115
00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:13,200
between bacteria in the vaginal tract

116
00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:16,400
and conception.

117
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:19,000
Bacteria naturally lives there.

118
00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:19,440
Okay.

119
00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,800
I mean, all the things
that they would culture and say,

120
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,440
you see they have E.coli,
they have this, they have that.

121
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,640
No, that's there all naturally.

122
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,920
Anyway,

123
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,440
there's no study

124
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:37,280
that shows any higher conception rate
with the use of antibiotics.

125
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:39,800
So there's no it's just not indicated.

126
00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,800
There's no support for this practice.

127
00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:47,400
And not only can it not help conception,

128
00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,480
it can really

129
00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,360
have an adverse effect on the dam

130
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,360
and her puppies.

131
00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,160
First of all, the gut biome.

132
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,160
If there is one thing that is correlated
with fertility

133
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,080
and also health in offspring,

134
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,800
it is a robust and diverse
gut biome in the dam

135
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:18,480
and giving a course of antibiotics
right before breeding just decimates that.

136
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,560
It just decimates her gut biome.

137
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:26,760
And although she may be able to recover
from that with time,

138
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:31,640
you're decimating it right at the time
that those puppies are being conceived

139
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:35,200
and she's seeding the puppies gut biome.

140
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,480
So now you have puppies being seeded

141
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,560
with a decimated gut biome,
so they're going to have less diversity.

142
00:08:42,560 --> 00:08:45,840
Their gut biome is going to be less robust
when they're born.

143
00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,640
Yes. I mean, through good weaning
practices, we're going

144
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,600
to increase
that gut biome in diversity and health.

145
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,640
But why would you do this?

146
00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,840
This is not it's not helping
you get your bitch pregnant.

147
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,400
And it potentially is really harming
your puppies.

148
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,320
You know, in humans, things like H

149
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,960
pylori overgrowth,
which they used to treat with antibiotics,

150
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,200
they now say it's

151
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,560
associated with lack of diversity
in the gut biome

152
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,160
and actually may be
exacerbated by antibiotics.

153
00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,680
So this is this sort of new

154
00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:29,400
realization in the medical community that

155
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,920
when you hit something with antibiotic,

156
00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,080
it's an equal opportunity destroyer.

157
00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,360
So it just it hits everything, right?

158
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,240
So let's say you do a swab on your bitch
and you're like, oh, you know,

159
00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:47,120
she's got an imbalance of, pick
something, E.coli.

160
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,080
So you hit it with antibiotics.

161
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,400
But the problem is that when you level

162
00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,720
the playing field in this way
and you take away all the good flora,

163
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,800
it can create an opening
for opportunistic infection

164
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,360
because you don't have those competing

165
00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,640
organisms
to crowd out the really bad pathogens.

166
00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:17,200
And sometimes
even something that on a smear

167
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,200
might look bad like streptococcus,

168
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,520
can be protective

169
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,640
against a worse pathogen.

170
00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,120
So I'm looking at this paper from 2012,

171
00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:34,080
vaginal bacterial Flora
and cytology in pro

172
00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,240
estrus bitches role in fertility.

173
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:41,520
And very interestingly,

174
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,400
they said vaginal presence

175
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,920
of streptococcus in pro estrus was instead

176
00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,640
negatively associated with the development
of uterine infections.

177
00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:01,120
Therefore, streptococcus
could have a protective competitive role

178
00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,320
against more dangerous pathogens
affecting fertility

179
00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:08,320
in the bitch.

180
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,560
So again, take out the strep.

181
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:13,120
Sure, but you're just opening the door

182
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,120
for something
that potentially could be worse.

183
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,400
This, again was studied in 2025.

184
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,160
The canine vaginal microbiome

185
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,720
during heat and fertility
in healthy breeding dogs.

186
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,640
Now they said a lot of things in this.

187
00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,000
I'm going to put up the study on the show
page.

188
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,000
It's worth a read
if you're interested in this topic.

189
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,560
First of all,
they said this has been often postulated,

190
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:45,520
but scarcely investigated and not proven
that antibiotics might be helpful,

191
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,000
or that bacteria present in the vaginal
tract is in any way harmful.

192
00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,880
However, they did say,

193
00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:56,640
It is undeniable

194
00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,880
that gynecological disease
might be associated

195
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,680
with bacteriological culture
of specific bacteria, such as E.coli.

196
00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,520
The present data emphasize once more
the opportunistic character

197
00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,680
of these organisms, as the genus

198
00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:17,280
E.coli was detected
in all samples in the study,

199
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,160
none of the genera could be identified
as a marker

200
00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,720
for suspected sub fertility
or infertility.

201
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,040
Moreover, underlying

202
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,000
causes for the opportunistically
pathogenic action

203
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,720
of the vaginal microbiota
should be investigated further.

204
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,720
These might be the overgrowth
in the absence

205
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,720
of competing commensal bacteria.

206
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,320
It's another way of saying that

207
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,400
if you take everything out,

208
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,480
yes, you may get something
that you perceive as being

209
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,840
a bad bacteria,
like E.coli out of the vaginal tract,

210
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:03,840
but it opens it up to other opportunistic
infection, which could in fact

211
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,120
be detrimental to your bitch's fertility.

212
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:09,560
I think the

213
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:14,400
concept here that you have to wrap
your arms around is that it's

214
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,400
a very analog situation in the animals

215
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,680
microbiota, meaning to say physically

216
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,760
there are X number of spaces
for things to live.

217
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:32,520
I mean, that X happens to be billions
and billions and billions, but

218
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,000
literally there's finite space
for things to live

219
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,000
in your animal's microbiota.

220
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:44,920
And if you take something out
or a lot out, it just leaves a hole.

221
00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,040
Like the way that an animal maintains
health

222
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,240
is literally by crowding out pathogens,
like there's just no place

223
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,240
for the pathogens to go,
so they just pass through the animal.

224
00:13:56,160 --> 00:14:00,880
It's when you have cracks in that,
when you have space,

225
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:05,000
and then the pathogens can come
in, that's when you get into trouble.

226
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,920
And that's the situation that you're in

227
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:11,560
when you strip things
out with routine antibiotics.

228
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,600
The vaginal tract, I mean, it's down
there.

229
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,200
It's meant to have all this kind
of, bacteria.

230
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:25,920
It's a microbiota that's a natural
microbiota for a vaginal tract.

231
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,760
Trying to strip
that out is just dangerous.

232
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,000
Quite frankly,

233
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,720
I'm sort of aghast, in fact,

234
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:40,040
that it's even still a meme out there
that just giving a routine

235
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:45,440
dose of antibiotics
is in any way beneficial or advisable.

236
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,840
In these cases.

237
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,680
Now, there are some vets that

238
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,360
will say, well, yes,
but you know, you're way out of balance

239
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:58,560
with something like there's

240
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:02,760
an overgrowth of one kind of bacteria
that they perceive as being bad.

241
00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,720
And I'm just going to say right now,
if that were the case with my bitch,

242
00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,880
I would address it with diet.

243
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,160
I would address trying to fix up her
gut biome

244
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,120
and her vaginal microbiota with diet,
with adding some fermented foods.

245
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,200
She's probably in dysbiosis
if this is the case.

246
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,960
And again,
I would not go the route of antibiotics.

247
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,520
I just wouldn't do it.

248
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,360
A, it hasn't been proven to help

249
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,480
and B it has the potential
for doing a lot of harm,

250
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:38,720
especially when you consider that
what has been shown to be connected

251
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,920
to fertility and health in puppies

252
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,680
is a diverse microbiota

253
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,400
in the bitch
and antibiotics are going to kill that.

254
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,320
Now, before I

255
00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,000
close out this topic,
I'm going to hasten to add

256
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,920
that if antibiotics are medically
indicated, if if your bitch is sick

257
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:06,000
or has some profound infection and
she needs antibiotics, do not hesitate.

258
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,000
Give her the antibiotics.

259
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,360
It would be irresponsible

260
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,360
not to give her the antibiotics
in that case.

261
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,240
Are you going to have some fallout
with her gut

262
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,560
biome and fertility and other things?

263
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,280
Yeah you are, but listen,
we can deal with that.

264
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,280
You can support her in other ways.

265
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,800
My only point here

266
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,000
is that routine, just prophylactic

267
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,000
giving of antibiotics, number one, never.

268
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,880
Never indicated. Never good idea.

269
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,600
Number two, even if there is an overgrowth
in the vaginal tract,

270
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,960
if she's clinically normal
and not ill from it,

271
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,840
I would always treat that
with diet and fermented food

272
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,520
and not antibiotics
based on the current science.

273
00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:58,760
As I read it.

274
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:01,320
If you

275
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,960
liked this
podcast, you'll love our breeder course

276
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,080
from Newborn to New Home, available
at madcapuniversity.com.

277
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:13,280
Breeders, do you want to get

278
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,280
your puppy
owners started out on the right foot?

279
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,960
Check out our bulk
discounts of our puppy Course

280
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,200
available at madcapuniversity.com.

281
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,560
Well, that's it for this time.

282
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:29,680
Thanks for listening. Bye bye.