AvTalk Episode 339: What the Nuuk!?

AVT 339 Transcript
EPISODE 339
[EPISODE]
[0:00:08] IP: Hello, and welcome to episode 339 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always
with –
[0:00:16] JR: Oh, we blew right past 338 and didn't make the Airbus A330-800neo joke.
Anyway, Jason Rabinowitz. Hi, Ian. How are you? This is the A330-900neo episode.
[0:00:31] IP: It is. It is. See, we did exactly what almost every other airline has done.
[0:00:36] JR: Oh, we ever want to got about it. Ouch. Yup. Yup. Okay. Yeah, the 330-800neo is
that unpopular that we forgot to make the one time we can make the joke about it. Ouch.
[0:00:50] IP: Well, you know, it's part for the course for us.
[0:00:52] JR: I would never forget the 900. That's my most flown aircraft these days. Can't
forget that one.
[0:00:58] IP: I mean, it's just much more popular. Well done on that one.
[0:01:02] JR: I do what I can.
[0:01:03] IP: Barring whatever just happened, we've got a pretty good show for you today. A
little bit later in the program, we're talking with Eliska Hill, who is the Senior Vice President of
Cargo for the UK and the rest of the world, and we get a good explanation of that title in a bit, for
Air Partner. We're going to talk air cargo and dive into the changing nature of the business and
how the industry on that side is evolving. Looking forward to that in a little bit. First, news from
the Nordics. It has not been a good week for airlines that are trying to do things that have not
worked before when other airlines have tried them.
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AVT 339 Transcript
[0:01:47] JR: Yes. If you are any employee of Icelandair, you are once again celebrating the
dominance of your North Atlantic Island. Because what's happened before has happened again,
and they've won yet again. But ae are talking about PLAY Airline, Airlines. I think it was actually
just branded as PLAY, call sign PLAYAIR, which I just learned as of this very moment, was
basically the reincarnation of WOW Air, which was again, an Icelandic low-cost airline that flew
not just to continental Europe to Iceland, but also to North America. PLAY did the same thing
with the same formula, and I think some of even the same planes and surprise, surprise, it didn't
work. Well, worked for a couple years, but four years isn't exactly a great run.
[0:02:38] IP: I mean, what's interesting here is that to their credit, they realized that it was a bad
business model, and we're attempting to move away from it.
[0:02:48] JR: Not fast enough.
[0:02:49] IP: They just didn’t move fast enough. Yeah, exactly.
[0:02:51] JR: Yeah. I mean, they had so much knowledge and information from the failure of
WOW Air to know, “Hey, maybe flying to the US for connecting flow through Iceland to Europe,
maybe that's not the best idea, but they did it anyway.” It did not work. Then I think later on, they
pivoted to only flying within Europe on behalf of other airlines, and that didn't work. I think they
moved to Malta. They moved their AOC to under play Europe. Yeah, just too little, too late, and
the whole thing is gone. Unfortunately, 400 employees lose their job, which in a place like
Iceland, that's actually a big deal. That's a big chunk. Hey, maybe someone else wants to give it
a go again.
[0:03:31] IP: Hopefully, with a much more well thought out business model than taking people
from North America to Europe via Iceland.
[0:03:40] JR: Yeah. Today, I learned that spirit had an inter-line agreement with PLAY. Hey,
that's something.
[0:03:48] IP: Not anymore.
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[0:03:49] JR: Bunch of struggling airlines sticking together.
[0:03:52] IP: More struggling airline news, over in Sweden, Braathens Airbus business is now
bankrupt. Not the entire company.
[0:04:01] JR: Even though they had one.
[0:04:02] IP: But they split off a few years ago, or created a few years ago, and Airbus A319,
A320 business within the larger group. That was designed to operate on behalf of tour operators
and things like that. That business took too much money to get set up, took too much money to
run, and did not bring in enough revenue. Over the past few months, they've been trying to
restructure that part of the business. They were not able to restructure that part of the business
fast enough. And so, they have been forced into bankruptcy. That does not affect their ATR
operations on behalf of other carriers. Basically, the flying that they do for SAS, that won't be
affected, but their standalone A319, A320 flying is going away.
Not a huge amount of A320 capacity coming on back into the market this week, but a handful of
aircraft, and a few of those have already gone back to lessors. Three of the PLAY A320neos
have already gone back to lessor and there are three more. Then there are seven total aircraft
with Braathens that will go back to various lessors. A bit of capacity.
[0:05:25] JR: I have no idea. I only knew of them as an Avro RJ100 and RJ85 operator, which
apparently, they don't do that anymore.
[0:05:33] IP: Back in the day. No, they do not.
[0:05:36] JR: I have completely lost all interest in this airline, because that's what made them
unique. Apparently, they also had E190s at some point.
[0:05:44] IP: They collected various small regional and single-aisle craft, and now they're just
ATR only.
[0:05:52] JR: All right. All right. Okay. It's core competencies, whatever.
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AVT 339 Transcript
[0:05:56] IP: Yes, exactly. You would think that an airport's core competency would be able to
arrive and depart aircraft safely.
[0:06:05] JR: But so many things can be distracting in Greenland.
[0:06:10] IP: This story just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. The Greenland transport
authority has now adjusted the regulations for the number of aircraft movement allowed at the
new Nuuk Airport. They are introducing what they are terming the Two Four Four Rule, which
defines how many flights can operate within a 60-minute window. In any given hour, there are
maximums for arrivals, departures, and total operations. There can only be two arrivals within
an hour. There can only be four departures within an hour, and you can't have any more than
four total operations.
[0:06:57] JR: When does this go into effect?
[0:06:58] IP: Now.
[0:06:59] JR: Oh, that's cool.
[0:07:01] IP: Yes.
[0:07:02] JR: Usually, something like this, you give airlines advance notice to move around their
schedule and adjust, especially when pretty much the only airline affected by this is going to be
Air Greenland, and Air Greenland operates a schedule that is, I guess, you could call it heavily
banked where you have the long-haul flight come in, you've got a bunch of little peers go out
and come back in. That operation doesn't work if you can only have a couple an hour. What is
going on at this little airport, a little tiny airport, Greenland isn't supposed to create this much
drama.
[0:07:35] IP: Yet, it is.
[0:07:36] JR: Constantly be in the news for drama.
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[0:07:40] IP: Additionally, there have to be five minutes between each flight. There's a minimum
of 20 minutes between arrivals.
[0:07:50] JR: This is why. Did they say why?
[0:07:54] IP: This is all for safety. They say that the restrictions are necessary in order to
maintain safe operations. That said, it's going to dramatically impact how Air Greenland
structures its operations at what is now its brand-new hub in Nuuk. Air Greenland has said that
they're assessing the immediate impact of this particular change. The COO of the airline says
that, “We now face a massive puzzle to rebuild a schedule that resembles the original.” Before
this went into place, they were operating eight flights per hour in connection with the
transatlantic flight to and from Denmark, so the long-haul flight to Copenhagen. They can no
longer maintain 40% of their schedule, because of –
[0:08:55] JR: That’s a big chunk.
[0:08:58] IP: - the number of operational limits there. What they said is that, if you're coming to
Greenland, you now need to plan to stay longer.
[0:09:06] JR: Yes. Air Greenland has a good, I would say, blog post about this. They seem to be
as surprised as anyone about this, which is not great that the new restrictions took effect
immediately from September 22nd, they say. It goes on to say, Air Greenland's route network is
structured as a hub and spoke system, where most flights depart and return to the central hub in
Nuuk. This enables a wide range of same day connections between town settlements and
international destinations. In a country like ours with many destinations and few travelers, this
system is crucial for maintaining a coherent infrastructure.
To be going and just immediately without no [0:09:44] with an operation like Air Greenland, that
has far reaching effects that supplies and food and all sorts of things that need to come in to not
just Nuuk, but all the other cities in Greenland and suddenly toss that operation into chaos. Not
great. Not great at all. I don't think this was fully thought through. Or if it was, it seems malicious.
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AVT 339 Transcript
[0:10:06] IP: I think one would hope that it's –
[0:10:09] JR: I would hope it's not.
[0:10:10] IP: I would hope it's not malicious. Also, if this is the security concern, if things are so
bad that you have to tell Air Greenland to not operate 40% of its flights, that you need to space
things out so much, I think that's a much larger issue for the airport's authority than the airline.
[0:10:29] JR:  Yeah. We don't know what the resolution here is. They just say, Air Greenland
and Greenland airports are working closely together to find other safe flight solutions that can
ensure Greenland's infrastructure is not degraded more than necessary. If I'm United looking at
this, having just reconfirmed flying back to Nuuk in 2026 after all international flights were
suspended and then unsuspended and then this put into place, is the Jews work the squeeze
here if the fares are high enough? I guess.
[0:10:59] IP: The CEO of Greenland airports has said that they're working on another solution
that minimizes the impact on passengers, “Within the next four to five weeks.”
[0:11:08] JR: Maybe they should have wait four to five weeks.
[0:11:11] IP: There's obviously something going on here, and hopefully they can figure this out
and get back to the way things were, or even better. But not great.
[0:11:19] JR: It's wild.
[0:11:20] IP: Poor Nuuk. Poor Nuuk. Hey, Jason.
[0:11:24] JR: Yo.
[0:11:25] IP: The FAA has said that Boeing can issue its own airworthiness certificates again,
sort of.
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[0:11:31] JR: Didn’t we just talk two weeks ago about how the DOJ was finding Boeing an
insignificant amount of money for safety violations regarding the certification of its own aircraft,
presenting aircraft that weren't airworthy to the FAA? Now all of a sudden, oh, it's all good. FAA
says, they can –
[0:11:50] IP: Well, they paid the fine.
[0:11:52] JR: Oh. Okay. 3.6 million dollars. No big deal. That's what you got to do. That's a
small price to pay.
[0:12:01] IP: The FAA itself noted that that was the maximum fine –
[0:12:03] JR: 3.1 million dollars, by the way.
[0:12:04] IP: Yeah, the maximum fine allowable under the law. Talk to Congress about that. But
what the FAA is now saying is that on alternating weeks, the FAA and Boeing will issue
airworthiness certificates again for the 737 and 787.
[0:12:22] JR: Alternating weeks?
[0:12:24] IP: Alternating weeks. Yes. Boeing has not been able to issue its own airworthiness –
Boeing doesn't actually issue its own airworthiness certificates. It's issuing an airworthiness
certificate under organizational delegation authority. The FAA is saying, there are people that
are working for the FAA within Boeing that are ensuring that all of these aircraft meet the
standards for airworthiness. Those people can issue those certificates.
FAA in 2019 after the MAX crashes said, “Nope, can't do that.” Then in 2022, after a long series
of quality issues with the 787 said, “No, can't do that anymore.” This is six years after the initial
MAX withdrawal and two and a half years or so after the 787 withdrawal of authority to issue
those airworthiness certificates. They're saying, on alternating weeks, FAA inspectors and
Boeing ODA people will issue these. The FAA says that this allows inspectors within Boeing
factories to focus on other parts of the production process, including the safety management
system.
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[0:13:37] JR: Okay. I mean, the timing here is just a bit sus to go from that lawsuit and
underwhelming fine to well, alternate weeks, they can do it. It was inevitable. It had to happen at
some point. But they have waited a couple more weeks, I don't know, till we forgot about that?
[0:13:55] IP: We never forget, Jason.
[0:13:56] JR: No, we never forget something like that.
[0:13:59] IP: I don't know why they chose now to go down that route. It didn't seem like there
was a milestone of any kind that they had met, though that certainly could have been something
that they have been discussing internally for quite some time, I’m sure.
[0:14:13] JR: Well, if you're Boeing and you could now certify on behalf of the FAA, your own
aircraft, can you still do that if the federal government shut down?
[0:14:24] IP: It would seem so.
[0:14:26] JR: Huh. Wow. How relevant, what good timing, what a transition.
[0:14:30] IP: What a transition indeed. The United States federal government is in fact not open
for business right now. The shutdown began, well, this morning at 12.01 a.m. Eastern Daylight
Time, and could last for who knows how long. This year, it seems that the FAA will be less
affected than usual, though I don't think, to anyone's mind, this is a good thing for the FAA,
especially as it works to, I think this word is appropriate, rushes to modernize the air traffic
control system.
There have been no shortage of announcements from the DOT to begin work, continue work on
ATC modernization. They're using the appropriations from the bill that was passed this year for
the FAA's funding over time to continue some of this work and not shut down all operations and
keep ATC going without being paid this year alone. ATC are still working as they have in
previous government shutdowns. They are not being paid as in previous government
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AVT 339 Transcript
shutdowns, but the FAA is continuing to do some work on ATC modernization and other things
this time around, instead of ceasing all activity as in they have in shutdowns past.
[0:15:58] JR: Crucially new higher air traffic controller training as well. I believe, I read that is
continuing. That has been a problem in the past during the Trump I government shutdowns.
Were there two, or three of them in the first administration? But that greatly impacted air traffic
controller training at the time. This time, well, there's a bit more eyes on the controller education
pipeline, or controller training pipeline. That, at least for some period of time, will not be
impacted. That's good news. I don't want to call it good news, but it's not bad news.
[0:16:34] IP: I mean, it's good that they're not interrupting the training. It's bad that we have to
be discussing this in the context of the government being shut down.
[0:16:43] JR: Yes, not good. Not good for anyone.
[0:16:46] IP: Let's head back to Boeing for a moment and a Wall Street Journal article reporting
that Boeing has begun planning for a new single-aisle airplane that would succeed the 737
MAX.
[0:17:02] JR: Headlines that should have been out in 2012.
[0:17:06] IP: This is according to the often-cited, people familiar with the matter. This is a new
single-aisle aircraft that will maybe have engines from Rolls Royce. Some of the reporting
detailed includes CEO Kelly Ortberg meeting with folks from Rolls Royce in the UK earlier this
year.
[0:17:31] JR: That would be a big change.
[0:17:33] IP: There has also been what the Wall Street Journal says is a new senior product
chief in Boeing's commercial airplane business, and their previous role was developing a new
type of aircraft. Getting your homework done, starting to design bits and pieces. The Wall Street
Journal says, they're designing the flight deck of a new narrow-body aircraft, which, I guess, you
can design without really having the other parts of the aircraft designed. Great.
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[0:18:04] JR: But?
[0:18:05] IP: This doesn't seem like they're launching – Reading through the article. Yeah, okay.
I would hope that they had been doing this all along.
[0:18:13] JR: Yeah. This seems like the pre-reading you do before you start even doing your
homework before you attend the first day of a college course. Yeah, they've probably been
doing this for a very long time. I would say, we're probably years still away from any sort of
product line launch. I would hope that they still have 99% of their engineers and their workers
focused on getting the MAX 7, the MAX 10 and the 777X certified. We would hope. They're just
playing around on the side, seeing what the next thing is. Because we've all been wondering for
a very long time. What is it? Will it even be a thing?
[0:18:56] IP: I don't know.
[0:18:58] JR: I don't know, but we're going to find out.
[0:19:00] IP: For its part, Boeing says that they are still focused on fixing the quality issues,
getting the existing aircraft certified and addressing financial concerns. That's what they say.
[0:19:13] JR: Only those things. Yeah.
[0:19:14] IP: Only those small stuff.
[0:19:15] JR: I am here for it. I think everyone is sick and done of the 737. As amazing of a
legacy as it is, it is time for it to go. I am also here for the inevitable disaster, the development of
this aircraft is going to be. As Jon Ostrower, friend of the show, has said many times, Boeing no
longer possesses the engineering capacity and knowledge to certify a new airplane. They have
not done that in how long since the 787? We all know how well that went. There has been a
huge brain drain at Boeing since then. Buckle up. This is probably going to be a messy ride.
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[0:19:57] IP: Hey, perfect transition. Speaking of messy rides, we have an update on Spirit’s
second bankruptcy.
[0:20:02] JR: Oh. Of the year. Second of the year.
[0:20:04] IP: Of the year. Yeah, sorry.
[0:20:06] JR: Got to be specific.
[0:20:07] IP: Yeah. In this week's update, Spirit and lessor AerCap have agreed to some terms
that set aside a bit of the acrimony that led to this particular bankruptcy filing. What Spirit’s going
to do is reject 27 leases right off the bat. Then, they're also going to take new leases for 30
future aircraft from AerCap.
[0:20:37] JR: What? Okay.
[0:20:40] IP: They're planning to be around for a while. Spirit says, “We're going to work our
way through this. We're shrinking to profitability at the moment. We will grow again in the
future.” They've put in for future leases. AerCap will pay spirit 150 million dollars for reasons
related to things.
[0:20:58] JR: Wait. Did Spirit play like an Uno reverse card here? Last we heard about this,
Spirit owed AerCap hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, something has happened in two
weeks. AerCap is going to give Spirit how much? 100-plus million dollars?
[0:21:15] IP: 150 million dollars. Yes.
[0:21:17] JR: They've got 30 new aircraft orders coming. Wow. I don't know. Who's negotiating
with AerCap at Spirit? But well done. I'm not sure any of it matters in the long run. That's some
serious negotiating.
[0:21:32] IP: They have also secured 475-million-dollar debtor in possession financing facility
for ongoing operations, and about 200 million of that is going to be available to the airline
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immediately. This is, again, all subject to bankruptcy court approval. This is interesting, because
it seems like some good news for Spirit.
[0:22:01] JR: All of this feels just like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, that they're just
doing what they need to do to prolong the life of the airline, until someone can come around and
snatch them up and put them out of their misery. Maybe I'm wrong. I am not a financial wizard.
But we'll see. I'm not hopeful, but they seem to have a plan of some sort.
[0:22:23] IP: They have a plan. Let's just hope that it works. Again, as Jason said, not hopeful. I
agree with Jason, as much as it pains me to say it, that, hey, it seems Spirit’s chances of
survival as a stand-alone entity are slim to none. Where should we go next, Jason? I think we
should switch it up and we should head down to the Dominican Republic.
[0:22:44] JR: Okay. Because things are weird there today. They're doing stuff I didn't know you
could do until today, and I learned.
[0:22:52] IP: This isn't even their first time doing it. What happened yesterday was that a
SKYhigh Dominicana Embraer E190 was on a test flight after maintenance, and the nose gear
didn't come down when they wanted it to.
[0:23:07] JR: Test failed. Test failed. This is why you do test flights.
[0:23:12] IP: Exactly. Exactly. The gear did not come down. The aircraft landed safely. No one
was injured, but the aircraft was stuck on the runway. At Santa Domingo, what they are able to
do at the moment is say, “Well, we'll just use the taxiway.”
[0:23:30] JR: Oh, sure. There is a parallel taxiway, basically almost the full length of the runway,
single runway airport there at Santa Domingo. Apparently, as has been done in the past, which
actually, as of the recording of this podcast, they are still using the taxiway. They're just using
the parallel taxiway as the runway, because coincidentally, it had been certified and apparently,
even has instruments for operations as, I guess, a backup auxiliary runway, because the main
runway has to be closed for reconstruction in the coming, I don't know, weeks, months,
whatever.
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As they did in the early 2000s, they will close the main runway and use the parallel taxiway as a
runway, which for most airports, that is a big no-no. You cannot just do that. But they just luckily
happened to already be prepared and ready to go. Huh, today I learned.
[0:24:30] IP: There you go. Yeah. Somebody flagged that and we looked at it and we go, oh,
that's super interesting that they had just happened to have done all of that work, because of
the impending construction. Good timing, I guess.
[0:24:42] JR: Yeah. You normally can't just use a parallel taxiway. It has to be sufficiently wide
enough. The structure of the pavement itself has to be structurally sound to take the impact of
aircraft landing. This won't work everywhere. Won't work all of the time, but hey, Santa
Domingo, you lose your one runway at the airport, no big deal. There's another runway right
there. It's just not a runway.
[0:25:08] IP: It's a runway today. In NTSB investigation news, the culprit behind a possible
incident, or behind a possible accident, turned out to be a distracted air traffic controller,
because somebody else got something wrong and a jammed printer.
[0:25:27] JR: Paper jam. Oh, man.
[0:25:30] IP: I'm not sure why it took so long for this report to come out, but this was an incident
from August 2023, when a Cessna 560 was landing in San Diego and a Southwest 737 was
preparing to depart. The Southwest 737 was lined up on the runway, and the Cessna was on
approach. The controllers in the tower, one of them was distracted by an incorrect altitude
assignment on a flight strip, and another controller was distracted because the flight strip printer
had jammed. The air traffic control tower personnel stated that they had received no training on
the use of troubleshooting of these printers.
[0:26:19] JR: Wait a minute. How could that be that the printer is so crucial, so critical to archaic
air traffic control that literally without it, nothing works, right?
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[0:26:31] IP: Well, there was a backup printer that they didn't switch to, and they decided that
they were going to troubleshoot this printer instead. There was a separation on, I guess, the
bright side of things. The ASD-X equipment worked. There were warnings. They told the aircraft
to go around. It did pass about 100 feet over the 737, but everybody landed and departed just
fine. Let somebody else troubleshoot your printer is the –
[0:27:06] JR: Yes. Critics of going all digital and really cherishing and holding on to the old print
the paper strip mechanism, because it can't fail system. Sometimes it can fail. Mechanical
things break. Not to say, computers and software don't break, but huh.
[0:27:24] IP: Lesson here is that anything can break.
[0:27:26] JR: Anything can break, especially a printer. We've all been there.
[0:27:30] IP: Exactly. We've all been there. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll
have a chat with Eliska Hill, who is the Senior Vice President of Cargo for the UK and the rest of
the world at Air Partner. We're going to learn all there is to know about what's happening in the
world of cargo at the moment. Stay with us. We'll be back in a moment.
[CONVERSATION WITH ELISKA HILL]
[0:27:54] IP: Welcome back. We, as promised, are here with Eliska Hill, who is the Senior Vice
President of Cargo for UK and the rest of the world. I love that title. At Air Partner, which is a
Wheels Up Company, here to talk all things air cargo that we might not have covered before.
Eliska, thank you so much for joining us.
[0:28:14] EH: Well, thank you very much, Ian, for having me here. It's a great pleasure.
[0:28:19] IP: Tell us about your role specifically in the industry, because you are not a giant
aircraft with a logo splashed on the side, but you're moving things around the UK and the rest of
the world quite handedly. Tell me about how you guys operate.
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[0:28:33] EH: Well, certainly, the reason of the title is simply, I look after every region apart from
the United States. I have a counterpart based in the US. That explains why the title states that,
not just that it's the UK is the center of the world, which I get reminded that we're not. Certainly,
not anymore. Yes, Air Partner obviously, is a well-established for over 60 years as an air charter
broker and quite a well-known name in the industry. But covering everything from private jet
charters to group passenger charters, a lot of operational management, leasing, aircraft leasing
and cargo. Cargo's been an important part of the business for well over 30 years now. But
always operating in across all the different verticals that we look at, mainly focused on the
charter world and growing with locations across the globe.
It's been a standard charter business for many, many years. What we've seen, I joined the
company almost a year ago back in October, and quickly identified that there was some huge
opportunities for us here. What had happened as the pandemic was slowing down, we were
coming out and obviously, Air Partner was significantly involved during the pandemic with a
number of cargo charters. However, as the business has changed and evolved throughout that
time, they identified that this is the team in the UK predominantly here has been driving this
change of direction.
Identified as the aircraft, the passenger flights were coming back on board. A lot of carriers were
looking to keep aircraft running. They didn't have new orders, but they needed to grow and fulfill
and expand their routings to get the passenger numbers back up. They were utilizing older
aircraft, aircraft that had been bought out of retirement. Finding some struggles with the supply
trains, getting back to, perhaps, previous levels before the pandemic, and became an
opportunity here where there's some of their partners, which has generally been the freight
forwarders, the large freight forwarders that will have an aerospace team to support them,
whether it's any parts moving around, which could be for maintenance, or any urgent
requirements, or perhaps diverted away, or not focused or struggling to offer them some of the
services that they needed.
I think it was an opportunity here to step in and perhaps, capture some of this market and head
in in a new direction. Pivoting away a little bit on the reliance on charter broking across all the
different verticals, as I mentioned, and move into something that's a little bit more niche, a little
bit more focused. That's really time-critical service solutions, and moving into the freight
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forwarding arena, but bringing that charter broking mindset with it. That's really thinking about
the solution that could be right for the customer, understanding the business, their requirements,
what really are their needs, what's the time frame the piece is needed in? Is it for regular
maintenance? Is it returning, or moving a borrowed piece that's needed?
Really creating a bespoke solution for that customer and making it really a partnership. That's
one of the things that's become really important and certainly has been for me in the business is
that working as a partner with our customers, rather than with just a service provider. Really, it's
been creating this portfolio of time-critical solutions, covering everything from an onboard
courier solution, a next flight out NFO moving on scheduled services, a direct drive, moving it by
road, not necessarily by air. Up to a part or a full charter.
Of course, it's not just one of these modes, it could be a combination of two, or even three
different types of modes. This business has just grown significantly, certainly in the last couple
of years. I've watched and I see there's a huge opportunity to take it further.
[0:32:41] IP: Why do you think it's grown so much in the past few years? I mean, all of these
different pieces aren't necessarily new, but is it, you're putting them all together that is drawing
in demand? Or is there something else driving this?
[0:32:54] EH: It's about the level of service that's given. Again, we're working in a very niche
area. We're working mainly with global international passenger carriers that have large fleets
operating wide networks and have to be operating on tight schedules, turnarounds, etc., and
maintenance times. As I said before, a lot of the customers that we're dealing with, they're
unhappy with their current solutions and current services. They feel as if they're just another
number. There's no priority. They don't feel anybody understands what exactly is the need. Also,
somebody's just simply booking it on another flight. As a freight forwarder, they'll just book it
next flight out, without understanding that it may not need NFO. It could move with an onboard
courier and save a lot of money, or they'll have to go to their charter desk and get a charter
option, which could take time and obviously, cost a lot of money, and may not again not be
needed.
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They're not really getting that, and I'm talking about bringing that charter-broken mindset where
we find solutions. It's that having that solution-based mindset overall, which has always been a
critical part of the charter broker. Finding the fastest, the most cost-effective way to move
something. Bringing that mindset into play here, where perhaps, somebody's working as part of
a freight-forwarding team that's just booking boxes and boxes on a day-to-day basis, and
doesn't treat this, perhaps, as a really important shipment, or really understand about the piece
they're moving, or what the customers' needs actually are. It's becoming that bespoke partner
really in the relationship.
Really, we'd like to call it providing a white glove service to our customers, which is something
that's – when you're talking about engine parts and oil and landing gear is not really what you
would think about, but it's possible and it can be done. With what the UK team has done, they've
been incredibly successful at this.
[0:34:46] IP: You've mentioned aerospace components a few times. Is that your main customer
base? Are you really just making sure that the aerospace industry can continue to function?
[0:34:54] JR: I think it's been the area that's grown the most, and that's particularly in the UK,
because of building that relationship with the carriers, and then they're moving every single day.
They've always got aircraft in maintenance. I'm talking about the larger carriers here. A lot of it is
general maintenance. They could have borrowed a part for somebody, or they need a part
moving to somebody else, or it could be an aircraft that's having some technical issues down
route.
The aerospace has become the primary, and I think that's more for the UK, because that's
where the greatest opportunity is. I think, again, going back to a saying, post the pandemic, so
many carriers were scrambling to get the passenger aircraft back in the air. As I understand
now, that the belly hold capacity is actually now back to where we were pre-pandemic, which is
pretty amazing achievement. In the last couple of years, bear in mind what the airlines have had
to deal with, so we can understand and the pressure is on to capture the custom market.
People are traveling again, not necessarily just for business, although we can see that now,
certainly with a number of cargo conferences that we have that are coming up this year. People
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are traveling again, and people want to visit family, so the demand is there. Aerospace has been
the predominant area that we've grown in. We've also done a little bit of work in the maritime
industry, but that probably need, again, a little more of a dedicated team, because it's really
about going into more detail about the actual parts. We're not just talking engines here. We're
talking an inlet cowl, we're talking landing gear. It could be quite different pieces of equipment,
key equipment that we're having to move, and having an understanding of how that's got to be
handled, and what aircraft can we use, utilize that to move it.
There's a little bit of automotive, a team in Germany, obviously traditionally always been very
strong in the automotive world, and they continue to focus on that arena. Obviously, that's
struggling at the moment. But the aerospace side of it is just growing. It really is, and the events
that team have been to is just phenomenal. The opportunity is huge.
[0:37:01] IP: Say I'm an airline, and I've had a 777 go tech, and I need a new engine, so I can
get that airplane back in the air. Do I just pick up the phone and say, “Hi. My plane's broken.
Can you bring me my new engine?” How does that process work?
[0:37:18] JR: Yes. This will be handled by the technical department. If there's a problem with an
aircraft and it's down route, not at any home base, where they may have a maintenance section,
but their technical team, and every airline has an AOG desk, so that will probably manage by
then, which is 24-7. They will come directly through to our 24-7 desk, where we run multiple
shifts, and make contact with the team member there. They'll need to specify, obviously, the
details, the dimensions, the type of engine, how it's being moved, and what the requirements
are. What's the timeframe? Most importantly, if it is AOG, you need to move as soon as
possible.
Does it need a charter? Whereabouts, obviously, if need to be moved too, and how's it going to
get there. Because obviously, if you're moving it by road at any point to an airport, you need an
air ride suspension vehicle that can carry the engine without damaging this. These are obviously
worth millions of dollars. It's finding the right solution for getting as much information as
possible. Then, of course, if you're bringing an engine down, you're more likely going to have to
take an engine back, which is not going to be so urgently need to be moved, so that can
probably be moved on a scheduled service, taking a few more days to come back.
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Then it's, again, covering all the documentation, the customs paperwork, making sure
somebody's there with the correct vehicle to carry that engine out to the aircraft where it may be
located. It's a number of different factors involved. But it really is that simple. It's the technical
people talking to our teams who are used to handling this equipment and understanding some
of the challenges.
[0:38:58] IP: It sounds like your business and the aviation industry in general, because we've
talked about AOG aircraft and you mentioned borrowing parts, because we see all the time that
engine cowling, that doesn't match, that's clearly from another airline that you borrowed
because you needed it. It sounds like in your business, relationships are extremely important. I
mean, because knowing who to contact in certain locations for an air ride suspension vehicle, or
somebody who has the right crane to lift something. How does that all come about? I mean, is
that just over years and years and years? Or is that something where you're relying on other
companies as well to build that network?
[0:39:38] EH: Exactly. Relationship is critical. All the different vendors that we use are a really
important part of our business. They are the core. Obviously, a lot of those relationships been
built up through many, many years, because as charter brokers, a lot of these are people,
trucking companies, handling agents. These are people that customs agents that the team have
used for many, many years. There are very strong relationships. They've also been vetted.
That's something that's really important to us is the level of service that we provide. That's
clearly reflective of all of our vendors to our customers, are effective of our level of service.
It's important that the vendors we use are trustworthy, are known, are experienced, and are
vetted clearly. If there are any issues, then they are dealt with very, very quickly. We've had it
before where, I think we had a new customer come onboard. There were going to be
somewhere eight different vendors used on the processes that they require just for general
maintenance movements. A visit will be made all to each of those eight vendors to ensure that
they have all the procedures correctly and they're following all of those procedures. If anything
happens, if anything goes wrong, then immediately, somebody will be there to make sure this
can be rectified, because this is really, really important to us. All of those vendors, as I said,
again, are critical to us to keep up those service levels to our customers.
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[0:41:04] IP: We've talked about aircraft on the ground. We've talked about parts and things like
that. Now, I'm curious about some of the more interesting, or unusual things that you've been
involved in, getting things from A to B to maybe C.
[0:41:17] JR: Unusual things? Well, we had one that came in and it's not just aerospace. This is
where it's really interesting to talk about how we're developing outside of that. There was a
recent example a few months ago, a Formula One race car was at a very important race in
Europe. On the practice sessions, unfortunately, had a small little accident and ripped off the
rear paneling at the bottom of the car. Obviously, quite vital. Bear in mind, the race is the next
day. An urgent call went out to our UK team to move this. While some people would say, “Fine,
it's Europe. It's just throw a charter at it, and they can afford to pay.” That's not how we would
think.
It's really about, how can we get that part to the customer as quickly as possible? Sometimes
almost quicker. If you're having to wait for a charter to get an aircraft operator to get permits, to
get availability, etc., etc., that can take time. We may arrange the direct drive. A truck picked up
the part from the home base in the UK and drove it over to Belgium. Then we put it on a charter
flight straight down to the nearest airport and then it was delivered to the racetrack. That was so
fast, so quick. They literally had it there within a few hours. The customer was incredibly happy.
Obviously, the panel was installed and the car went on. I can't say if they won or not, but they
were very, very happy.
[0:42:44] IP: But they were able to race.
[0:42:46] EH: They were able to race. You can imagine if a Formula One car can't race, that's a
huge issue and can cause that team a fortune. Outside of other areas, outside of the aircraft
parts, the onboard courier side, and this is where we're looking to really expand and develop,
particularly in the US, with our partner, Wheels Up, is how can we connect in with some of the
Wheels Up customers and work more closely together with some of their needs and
requirements they may have?
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You've often got cases where people have left baggage behind, they left their passport behind,
urgent medication that needs to be picked up and taken to somebody. We've had a case where
somebody had a handmade suit that was being made by a tailor in New York had to be sent to
Switzerland for an urgent requirement. It was actually for a funeral of somebody quite
significant. Again, an onboard courier was able to deliver that very, very quickly and efficiently
directly to that customer. They know that the item would be in someone's care all the way
through. It's about finding that, again, that best solution that's often going to be the quickest, but
also, not just going for the most expensive option. It really is because again, it's a longer-term
view. We want to work with our customers for a long term. And they've got to trust us. If we're
moving a million-dollar engines around, they need to know that they trust the people that are
managing these operations to do this properly.
[0:44:17] IP: Looking to the future a bit, as far as you want to look, how do you see the industry
evolving, or at least your particular bit of the industry? What's on the near horizon and what's
out a little bit more long term?
[0:44:30] JR: Well, that's where it's really exciting, actually. That's where, as I said, I've only
talked a lot about the UK today. But the idea for me and the strategy that I'm working on is the
opportunity here is huge. We're already now expanding and recruiting to have an office. We
already, Air Partner has a presence in the Middle East based in Dubai. I myself was based out
in Dubai for 18 years, so I know the region and the area very well. It's a critical nerve center
covering the Middle East, covering Africa.
What we're setting up now is what we're looking to do is we have a control tower. We call it
control tower in the UK, which runs 24/7 with the team there, with a huge support. We'll look to
build that similar model in Dubai, in the Middle East to cover the regional aspect. Again, we
already have a team that we're building in the US, which is based down in the Wheels Up MOC
in Atlanta. We're going to build up that team further as well to cover the Americas. Then, of
course, we're looking into the Far East to have a control tower based here. Effectively, you'll
have four control towers, all 24/7. As we call the concept, we follow the sun. Customers will
know, they'll have that support whatever's happening anytime of day, and in a location close to
them, either where they're based, or where the incident or issue has occurred. They'll have that
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global support. Through those four control towers, you'll be able to effectively connect with the
world and connect the world together.
[0:46:01] IP: We've been speaking with Eliska Hill, who's the Senior Vice President of Cargo for
the UK and the rest of the world, which means just not the US, at Air Partner. It has been
wonderful to talk to you and get some insight into how things are moving around the world a bit
unseen. Thank you so much for taking the time. No, thank you very much for having me. It was
fantastic.
[END OF CONVERSATION WITH ELISKA HILL]
[0:46:26] IP: Welcome back. Jason, I think my new job is going to be onboard courier. That's
always appealed to me. I feel like that would just be a really cool job.
[0:46:37] JR: I mean, Simpson's did it in 1997, though. I'm pretty sure Bart was fine all over the
place, carrying human organs around. If it's like that, it looks tiring. But I'm going by 1990s
cartoon information.
[0:46:56] IP: That's how I base my entire life on 1990s cartoon.
[0:46:59] JR: If you go by that, you can't go wrong.
[0:47:01] IP: True words, Jason. True words. Let's head to Croatia, where Croatia Airlines has
taken delivery of its first A220-100. One of the few airlines to have ordered the 100 –
[0:47:13] JR: A220-100. I think they’re Delta?
[0:47:17] IP: Delta actually has orders for about 50% of the entire 100 order book. That, I think,
provides some information that you can file away somewhere. They join the ranks of Swiss, ITA,
and LOT, which recently signed on as a customer for 20 examples, but the A220-100, by far, the
much less popular version of that particular aircraft.
[0:47:42] JR: Oh, it already has six A220-300s.
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[0:47:45] IP: Correct.
[0:47:47] JR: I guess, just wanted some spice in their life, take the shorter, less interesting,
aircraft and why not?
[0:47:55] IP: It went home two days ago. Congratulations to them.
[0:47:58] JR: That's nice.
[0:47:59] IP: In anticipation of hosting the gathering of European leaders in Denmark this week,
Denmark, having suffered through the last week and a half with drone sightings, has said, “You
know what? We're just going to ban drones in the entire country for the entire week.”
[0:48:19] JR: Surely, you mean within a 5-mile radius of an airport, right?
[0:48:23] IP: Nope.
[0:48:23] JR: Oh, the whole country.
[0:48:25] IP: Yup.
[0:48:26] JR: Oh, okay, okay.
[0:48:28] IP: Commercial drone activities. Done. We're just not going to deal with it. We're not
going to have anybody doing any of this. Civilian drone flights, done.
[0:48:37] JR: Did it work?
[0:48:38] IP: Well, we don't know yet. This is this week through Friday, where the ban will
remain in place as Denmark hosts U-leaders. We'll see how it goes. Again, who knows if they
were actually drones?
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[0:48:53] JR: Could be aliens.
[0:48:53] IP: I mean, I would welcome that at this point. That would be fine.
[0:48:57] JR: I for one welcome our new alien overlords.
[0:48:59] IP: Exactly. Speaking – No, not speaking of new alien overlords.
[0:49:03] JR: What? Transition. That did not work, Ian. We are moving on to the Lufthansa
Group news of the week, who had their investor day thing, whatever.
[0:49:15] IP: If you're from Lufthansa, I apologize.
[0:49:18] JR: We're going to start with the best of the news, because I'm pretty sure all the rest
of it is bad news. However –
[0:49:27] IP: We go from good to mixed to bad.
[0:49:28] JR: Yes. The good news, Lufthansa is one of seemingly an endless number of airlines
celebrating its 100th anniversary coming up. It will soon take a 787 in a wonderful 100th
anniversary livery. If you are not a fan of Eurowhite, you are going to like this new livery.
[0:49:50] IP: It looks very good. Very sharp.
[0:49:53] JR: It is. It’s very nice.
[0:49:55] IP: Not only does it look good, I really like the design elements of it. I think they did a
really nice job. It's not just pretty to look at. I'd like the cohesiveness of the design.
[0:50:07] JR: Yeah, it's really good. It incorporates the crane. The crane.
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[0:50:10] IP: Yup. It features the Lufthansa crane throughout the full fuselage, along with some
markings celebrating the 1926 founding and the 2026 100th anniversary, as well as some large
100 markings in case you didn't want to do the math yourself.
[0:50:29] JR: Yes. It is pretty nice. It is not yet flying. It is painted on a 787-9 currently still in
Charleston. Delta, Alpha, Bravo, Papa, uniform should be delivered with – they have to throw
this in there, with the new Allegris interior. Should be delivered to Frankfurt in November, where
it will enter service in December at some point. With all things Boeing and Lufthansa, who
knows? It could be 2027 and they will miss the anniversary entirely by the time this aircraft
enters service. But it is pretty fantastic. It's really nice that so many airlines at the same time are
celebrating their 100th anniversary, because at the same time, American Airlines is also
celebrating its 100th anniversary. While they have not put out a special 100th anniversary livery
just yet, they did put out a 100th anniversary logo mark something.
[0:51:23] IP: Logo mark, yeah.
[0:51:25] JR: Logo mark. Which is itself very nice that will be used all over and all sorts of
marketing and customer touch points. I have a sneaking suspicion, given just how many special
liveries American has that they'll probably follow suit with something as well.
[0:51:41] IP: United is also celebrating its 100th anniversary next year. They will also be coming
out with a special livery. We don't know what that's going to like look yet, but we're going to see
one and it's about time.
[0:51:55] JR: Yes. Maybe in the next 100 years, they'll finish painting their entire fleet with the
last new livery as well. So many airlines celebrating 100 years. Qantas, I think, was another one
this year.
[0:52:07] IP: Previous. Their celebration is done.
[0:52:09] JR: There will be no more celebrations.
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[0:52:11] IP: Yeah. We've done KLM. We've done Avianca. We've done Qantas. Now we've got
some – and we've done, I think, was it Croatia, or Czech?
[0:52:22] JR: Something like that. Well, I don't know if it was Smart Wings, because I'm pretty
sure Smart Wings –
[0:52:25] IP: It wasn’t Smart Wings.
[0:52:26] JR: - didn't exist three years ago, or nine months ago. Anyway, let's go to the medium
Lufthansa Group news. The group wants to go from 13 to nine widebody aircraft models by
2028. In the past, the Lufthansa Group has taken pride in having what you could charitably say
is the most complicated fleet in the world, but there were reasons to why they had it and why it
worked. That is now come full circle to bite them in the ass and just no longer helpful. It is
detrimental. But they will solidify down to the 747-8, 777-9, if and when that ever gets delivered,
A350-1000, 777-300ER, A350-900, 787-9, A330-900, A330-300, and A380. There's a question
mark next to that one. Not sure what that question mark means. What we do know –
[0:53:15] IP: I don’t think Lufthansa knows what that –
[0:53:17] JR: Nobody knows what they want to do with the A380s. We'll come back to that in a
moment. What we do know is that next year, 2026 will be the end asterisk for now. Things
always change, but 2026 will be the end of the A340-600, A330-200, and 767-300 for the
Lufthansa Group. The following year, 2027 will be the end of the 747-400, and A340-300, while
2028 will be the end of the 777-200 for the Lufthansa Group. If you are a fan of weirdo aircraft
that never really struck it all that big, like the A340-600, John Walton, if you're listening, I
apologize in advance, but older aircraft like the 767 and the A340-300, you better hurry up.
Because examples of those out in the wild, they're few and far between, and once Lufthansa
retires them, they're going to be a lot harder to find.
Apparently, I think I read this on Aviation Week, the A340-600 only has as long in the air as
Lufthansa Technik has brake pads in the maintenance shop. Once those are gone –
[0:54:29] IP: They bought all of them.
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[0:54:30] JR: They bought all of them in the world. Once those are gone, that's it. There is no
more A340-600. Why they can't manufacture more of them? I don't know, but they seem pretty
clear that once those brake pads are gone, the entire aircraft is gone and the entire fleet is
gone. Yeah, Christina, if you're listening, maybe we should plan that A340-600 trip, because
we've got this year and next year, and that's it.
[0:54:56] IP: The AvTalk A340-600 party. In the worst news, as far as the new Lufthansa Group
news is concerned, through 2030, Lufthansa is looking to cut up to 4,000 jobs. These will be
mostly based in Germany and mostly administrative as they consolidate group efforts within the
Lufthansa Group. Historically, Lufthansa Group Airlines have made a lot of their network
decisions internally to that specific airline. That seems to be changing now that Lufthansa has
understood that they can better make those decisions, harmonize them across, or at least this is
the argument, harmonize them across the group if they make central decisions. Up to 4,000
jobs through 2030 will be cut on the administrative side as they move towards that goal. It
doesn't look like mass layoffs at the moment, but it seems there are going to be a lot of attrition
over the next few years, but probably some layoffs at some point seem likely.
[0:56:11] JR: You hate to see any number of employees let go, but it's wild that it took until
2026. Late 2025-2026, when Lufthansa as a group realized, “Hey, we could maybe coordinate
amongst our many different airlines and realize some efficiencies through that.” Probably long
overdue, but here we are. You hate to see anyone let go by it, but what's the point of even being
a group if you don't at least plan things like, where should we all fly next year together?
[0:56:42] IP: Right. Right. It seems logical that that is what they would do. Speaking of large
airlines, Turkish Airlines is large and it's getting even bigger.
[0:56:55] JR: Wisdom you can only get at this podcast. Turkish Airlines is large.
[0:57:00] IP: 50 787s, plus 25 options. 35 of the firm orders will be for Dash 9s. 15 will be for
Dash 10s. They're also putting in an order for up to 150 737 MAX, which will be a mix of Dash
8s and Dash 10s. Those orders are going to be subject to agreement with CFM for how many
engines and at what price they can get them.
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[0:57:29] JR: You know who also wants the 73 MAX 8 unexpectedly?
[0:57:33] IP: Who?
[0:57:33] JR: Norwegian wants 30 of them.
[0:57:35] IP: Huh.
[0:57:36] JR: Huh. Its first direct order with Boeing since 2017 when, oh, boy, things were very,
very different from Norwegian. They still had a whole long-haul operation, which is now
basically, like Norse. We've talked about so many times, but 30 MAX 8s going to Norwegian,
which is apparently, hey, they're getting bigger again, and maybe, someday the ambitions will
get the best of them and then launch long haul again. Who knows? Why the MAX 8? Why not
the 9? The 9 is such a, I guess, more appropriate aircraft. It's all of the cost of operating the
MAX 8, but with more capacity. I don't know. It's weird.
[0:58:19] IP: I don't know either. But if you know, email us at podcast@fr24.com and let us
know. You can also email us about this one, because this one is very interesting to me. A380
MSN-114, which is the 100th A380 ever built, has been sitting in France in storage for the past
two and a half years, after Malaysia Airlines officially retired its entire fleet and was able to give
them back to Airbus as part of the condition for purchasing 20 A330-900neos. See, Jason, we
brought it all the way back to 339.
[0:58:57] JR: Episode 339. You're tying it all back together.
[0:59:01] IP: Now that aircraft has been returned to the sky, has completed a maintenance test
flight and has now been flown to Abu Dhabi, and –
[0:59:11] JR: Why?
[0:59:12] IP: - has taxied over to the Etihad engineering building, where it will presumably
undergo some extensive maintenance. Why is a great question.
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[0:59:22] JR: We know nothing beyond that, as far as I know. This could be so mundane that
Etihad just wanted to snatch up an A380 that nobody wanted to support its own fleet, to just rob
it of parts. That is something Delta is doing right now with the A220, unexpectedly. They bought,
I think, from Egyptian Air, a couple of A220s that they are never going to operate. They're just
going to park them and rob them of parts to support the rest of the fleet. Maybe that's the case
here. Maybe not. How unexpected.
[0:59:54] IP: Definitely going to be keeping tabs on this one. Someone has suggested that it
could be Etihad doing the engineering work on behalf of Airbus to use as a future test aircraft.
Some have suggested that Etihad is putting it into service, which would be interesting. It would
require a lot of work if that's the plan. Jason's point is also well-taken that this could just be a
spare parts emporium. We shall see.
[1:00:21] JR: If this is your A380, let us know at podcast@fr24.com.
[1:00:27] IP: Exactly. On that note, we will close episode 339 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik,
here, as always with –
[1:00:36] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2025 AvTalk 29